A Chief People Officer’s Guide to Career Progression, Talent Strategies, and Mentorship

Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more@accenture.com Spotify.

Speaker B: Hey, this is William Tincup and Ryan Leary. You are listening. Hopefully watching the Practitioner Corner podcast. We have Jill Larson on. Today we're going to be learning all about her journey, her career as it was. So, uh, as it is.

Speaker C: Jill, proper English. You don't have Grammarly on.

Speaker B: I know. Yeah, I know. And I'm. And I'm not reading an obituary, so there's that.

Speaker D: Oh God. Is the day after the election depending on your point of view.

Speaker B: You know, I, I could go dark. I could go dark from zero to 60. Yeah. Kind of went there escalates quickly with,

Speaker C: uh, went from Grammarly to obituaries.

Speaker B: Well, again, right, dude, this happens. So Jill, first of all, thank you for carving out time for us. Thank you for being here. Uh, would you do us a favor and the audience a favor and introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you.

Speaker D: Sure, sure. So thanks for having me. Um, I'm Jill Larson. I'm the chief people officer at a company called Synopsys. Synopsys is really focused in the uh, chip design space. Uh, we do everything from silicon uh, to software and solutions. Uh, and it's actually my uh, first foray into that space. I've been in lots and lots of technology companies. Um, but this is the first I've sort of been uh, in this area. We're doing a lot with AI uh, and it's about a 40 year old company where uh, we've had a CEO succession which I've done a number of those as well. And so it's a build and a transformation. And as I talk about myself, you'll see that I have a little bit of a profile in that uh, where I tend to like, uh, things that are incredibly complex and hard and um, kind of big mountains to climb. And uh, from a transition perspective the company is really accelerating and doing quite well. But we really need to pivot uh, as a company around AI and really starting to accelerate um, faster with our growth. And so that has created a lot of opportunity for me. So I've been there for about a year and a half, uh, and this is my fourth chro role and my third public company role. We're about 6 billion in revenues, about 20,000 employees globally. It's a very nice size for me because it's kind of a midpoint size. Um, so I'm also a mom of twin, uh, boys who are 20, uh, and they're on each coast in different colleges, uh, and they're very different kids. They're fraternal. Uh, so that's, uh, you know, that's another part of a dimension of who I am, uh, that I think is important as well.

Speaker B: I gotta ask, what colleges?

Speaker D: So Brady is at? Uh, who's the younger? You know, that's really important with twins. He's at lmu, so he's in la. We're saying he lives his best life. He's at the beach. He's living the life we all want. Uh, and then, uh, Andrew, who is my entrepreneur, uh, he has been running a sneaker business since the age of 12. So he, um, doesn't really need to go to college, but he wants to go to college. So m. He is, uh, going to a local, uh, college in Massachusetts called Fitchburg.

Speaker B: Yeah. Hey. Of course.

Speaker C: Very nice. Very nice.

Speaker B: I was thinking Babson. When you were first going down that route, I was thinking about because they have such a wonderful entrepreneur program.

Speaker D: They do. But he would, um. The amount of schoolwork there is not, you know, he's.

Speaker B: That's intense.

Speaker D: He's gonna get through.

Speaker B: Got it. That was beautiful.

Speaker C: He's running. Running.

Speaker D: Yeah, he's running. He's running a business and he's going to school at the same time. So two totals.

Speaker C: I think we need to have him on.

Speaker B: Oh, 100%.

Speaker C: And have a show.

Speaker D: Yes, for sure.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, it comes from somewhere.

Speaker C: How do you manage both coasts? How do you visit both kids?

Speaker D: Yeah. So.

Speaker C: Or is he just not.

Speaker D: I've been commuting for roles for a really long time, um, most of my career. Uh, so I have a fantastic, uh, partner. Uh, my husband, uh, Chris. Uh, which I think is really important if you're going to be in an executive role, is that you have a good support system, whatever that looks like for you. Um, I. Shows really, really well. So, um, I spend about half the time on the west coast and half the time on the East Coast. Uh, and, uh, for me, uh, uh, it's more just the opportunity. Your kids don't really want to. You know, I could hang out in LA with Brady all the time, but he's sort of like, I'm really busy, mom, or, you know, so I See him, but not, you know, not the same.

Speaker C: I've seen you for 16 years. 17 years, Mom.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're good.

Speaker C: Give me some time.

Speaker D: Yeah, that's right.

Speaker B: You know, we'll FaceTime. We're good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So I, I know this is going to take us off. Well, may not. It's going to take us off on a different track. Um, but you mentioned support systems. Yeah, yeah, let's, let's dig into that. That's interesting because I think we talk about that a lot on this, on this show, but not, maybe not in, in the way that you're, that you've addressed it. Right. We're always talking mentorship and learning and things like that. But talk about support systems for someone that's in executive role especially. I mean, you've had a long, storied career, Right? So a long career in executive roles. How does that work?

Speaker D: Sure. You know, I think, um, for me, uh, as it became clear, my husband, um, just retired, he's a firefighter, um, but he, you know, he had a very stable kind of, you always know what the schedule is, that kind of role. And so as it became clear that my career was really starting to, um, accelerate, uh, you know, we had a long conversation about that. And so when I talk about the support system, it's understanding the trade offs, you know, and so I, I wasn't the one that picked the kids up when they were younger at school. And then when I show up at school, all the moms would be like, oh, where's Chris? You know, big fan, favorite firefighter, you know. But I think it's really important.

Speaker B: Oh, it's you.

Speaker C: Yeah. Could you leave, Mrs. Larson?

Speaker D: No. Uh, but you know, when people say, like, you can have it all, like, I wouldn't say that I've been able to figure that out. So the way I do it is based on sort of how I prioritize things, but understanding there are certain trade offs and then there are certain things that I don't make trade offs on. And so I just think that's really important, um, as you get into, if you, if you do choose to get into larger roles, you know, the CPO roles, that it requires a lot of travel, we're dealing with a lot of, you know, different types of crises. Um, I mentioned the election. You know, we're going through that right now in the U.S. um, and so you have to have the ability, if you're going to be a parent or whatnot, um, to be able, or caretaker, to be able to manage that if you're going to be in those kind of jobs. So the reason I've taken the jobs I have, which many of which are not in Boston, where my family has been, um, you have to have that and you have to have a great communication. But I feel like behind every great executive, ideally, is some great type of support system, whatever that looks like.

Speaker B: Yeah. Have you ever worried if you didn't travel, your marriage would be different?

Speaker D: Oh, that's a really great question. You know what? I might have said that. But then Covid, I was actually at ptc, which was in Boston, and I. Everyone was shoved together in Covid and actually. Fantastic. And so for me, I just. I think I'm lucky. Like, I've chosen really well. But you also really. I mean, it's a relationship like any other. You have to work at it. Um, but, you know, it's a really. People ask me that a lot. And, uh, I don't think so. I think, um, you know, he's part of my. My life. Like, I have a, you know, I rent something, a, uh, house, uh, in, um, in California. But, like, when I was at Metadata, which is one of the other chief people officer roles I had in New York City, I had an apartment there. And so, like, he's always been a part of that, so he'll come and spend time. We do wine country in California, you know, so, like, it depends on how you incorporate them into your life. But we are almost empty nesters. Not entirely. So it's really, really important, though, almost.

Speaker C: I think.

Speaker B: I think where you were dangerously close.

Speaker C: I think we were going that with William is Michael. Your wife would not be around if you were not traveling.

Speaker B: Oh, 100. For years.

Speaker D: I don't want to project on you.

Speaker B: No, no, no, no. For years I was terrified because I was on the road a lot. I was terrified if I. If I'm actually at home, it. It might actually create problems.

Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: Because she's. She's so independent. I'm independent. Like, it's. This might be a problem. Covid. Well, even before COVID we got, uh, all that stuff. You're right. Like, my wife's probably like your husband. She's my best friend.

Speaker D: Yes, exactly. So you just make that really well.

Speaker B: Oh, I. I married up.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: I knew it. I married up. I. I was. I was seeking that. So I. I made. I married up. Uh, let's go back to, uh, college for you for just a sec. What was the dream? What did you want to be before you got, uh, into what you're Into.

Speaker D: So it's interesting. I, uh, played field hockey. I was a Division 1 field hockey goalie, uh, in college. And so I had a full scholarship. I went to Chapel Hill my freshman year, which ended up winning the whole thing. Um, but the goalie there, uh, was the Olympic goalie for two Olympics. And so you weren't playing. You know, I was maybe even really good, but I was not Olympic caliber. So for me, my journey shifted pretty quickly because I figured they wanted to redshirt me and I didn't want to go to school for five years. And so I came back to Boston and I ended up transferring to Boston College, which is where my mom went. Um, but I always wanted to be a journalist. So I've always been interested in, like, entertainment and media, and I love to write. And so I was going to be a journalist and then was determined, which is probably good that I didn't, because that's been an interesting career path.

Speaker B: 100%. 100%.

Speaker D: But I had an offer to do a, ah, bunch of editing and things like that. And, um, I met a gentleman at the BC alumni event, um, who ran his own headhunting firm. He was a headhunter. My dad was in sales. And so as I started talking to him, his name's Phil Sullivan. When I talked to Phil, he was like, you know what? I think he'd be really great at this. And so I ended up taking the leap. And, uh, it ended up that I loved the recruiting side. I loved the candidate, the relationship, the people side, and I hated the business development dialing for Dahl. Like, I would sit in. We got bought by Robert Hack. No offense to those that work for Robert half. But it was like, uh, you sit in the pit and you do your calls. I was like a nervous wreck about that. So for me, uh, I ended up pivoting and going in house because that was. I ended up really loving recruiting. Uh, and in my career, if you look at my career, I've been in either talent or TA roles or chro roles. So the problem for me with recruiting, and I love my recruiting peeps, but I always cared about what happened after we placed them. And most recruiters are like, why do you care about this?

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: They just cut them off.

Speaker D: How did they do? What happened? You know, did they grow with it? So that's why I kind of went back and forth and ended up really loving the strategy part, especially of the chro role for me is, um, incredibly exciting. Um, but I still do. I do a lot of communications, you know, so I still get to do the writing part. But, you know, like, my dream job would be like, you know, working in a big media, you know, because I just love all that kind of stuff. And so for me, maybe that's where I'll end up at some point.

Speaker C: A White House correspondent.

Speaker D: No, no, no, no, no, no. That's probably not a good fit for me right now. But, um, yeah, I think I'm much more of like a Netflix or like, you know, the stars, Cathy Awards, things like that.

Speaker C: Nice.

Speaker D: Just got it.

Speaker B: Ryan was in the Executive Search.

Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more@accenture.com Spotify

Speaker C: yeah, yeah, executive Search.

Speaker D: Um, I love the relationships from that. And so for me, a lot of those, I mean, even like William and I mean, we've known each other for a long time. You know, we've been used to be at different events. And I ran TA for Cisco for five years. And so I've gone back and forth. Um, and so for me, those relationships, that network is really important. And I find my ta, uh, kind of network to be one I tap into a lot, especially now with AI and some like, what are you guys messing with? How are you addressing this? How are you thinking about skills? Like, you know, those are the. I don't always go to HR people for that. Chros for that, because many of them aren't deep in that, you know, and I'm really interested in a lot of that. And so for me, that, um, makes me a little bit unique. Perhaps.

Speaker B: When you're at Cisco, I don't know if they allowed you this or it was just your personality, but you were doing really innovative stuff. Yeah, like, way five, 10 years ahead of other people, like, talking to you. And then I talked to three or four other practitioners, like, yeah, I need to. Okay, because you were doing really cool. I don't. And again, I don't know if that was Cisco proper or if that was just the way you were doing it, but it was noticeable.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think a lot of that for me has been the problem of talent. You know what I mean? Like, so Cisco when I joined was 83,000 people. It's gone up to like 110,000. Um, but when I came in, I came in to run ta and then I was the Chief Diversity officer for a year. I kind of cleaned that COE up and I mean that in a really positive way, revamped it. And then we moved Sherry Slade in, who was fabulous for them, out of the business. Took somebody out of the business. I wanted somebody who could really drive business outcomes. Um, but I was really fascinated by this kind of operating expense thing that happens in big companies where you end up having to do restructures all the time. And you're hearing a lot. We have a lot of recruiter friends that are really struggling right now because, um, it's such a tough market. And I was really interested in that problem statement of like, how do you, how could I place people fast? Like, how could we get away from that? Instead of hiring, you know, we were hiring 16,000 people a year at Cisco. How do I redeploy? And so we did something called the talent Cloud. It was very early days. I actually partnered with EY and a couple other vendors. And, um, now that would be something like, um, like a tech wolf or like, you know, like this whole skills piece, which very few companies are still doing well despite lots of interest in it. And a lot of that has to do with how leaders hire. And so, um, for me, I'm just interested in the problem statement. And since nobody. It was a problem, like, it was a real quantifiable expense for Cisco and has a lot of PR impacts as well. It was something that we kind of went after and we were just too early to be honest. Like, you wouldn't call it the talent cloud now, but at the time, like, cloud was sexy, but, you know, it's. It was something that, um, we're still trying to address. Like, I'm doing, as I talk about, like synopsys, we're looking at the skill shift and like how there's not a lot of people going into this space in semi and electrical engineering and physical engineering, just all these pieces. And so how do we repurpose people's skills so that they can become very relevant, um, in the future? Uh, because a lot of what's happening, whether it's Nvidia or with us or, you know, this concept of multi die where you're basically taking chips and you're kind of stacking them. It's a very simple way of talking about it, but you still need the chip designers to now figure out that piece. Right? So to me, it's the same problem statement. So that's why I Do it. I just, I'm really interested in how to disrupt things that aren't really working and that seem inefficient and then also thinking about access and people working longer and how do we boomerang people back, you know, things like that, like how do you actually create a much more agile workforce. Um, so that's why it's just me and what I'm interested in. I just tend to focus on those kind of things and it seems that lots of people can't figure it out. I'm not saying I've landed it or figured it out, but there's still some problem statements that I think are becoming much closer in reality now. Whereas at Cisco it was a little early days, but Cisco is a great innovation. I have a lot of wonderful. I was there for five years. I loved my job at Cisco. It was great. I met some amazing people, many of whom are now chros and peers. And so it's a really cool springboard

Speaker C: when you come up to a problem that you haven't, or we'll say not that you can't solve, but you hit a wall. How do you break through that?

Speaker D: You know, a lot of times for me it's stepping back and including other people in the problem because the issue for me is I can't see it. Right. Um, and it's interesting, I, I was in a dinner, uh, with kind uh, of like the best of the best, like these different fellows and we were talking to them about AI and how you would disrupt the space that we were in. And what was so interesting was they couldn't, they had to think about it in terms of the stack because they're so, I, uh, mean like the smartest people you've ever met. But they couldn't see the world as coming this way. They could only see it, you know, uh, going vertically. And so I took a lot out of that experience. As silly as it is, it was a dinner I went to. And so I think a lot about that of like, well, who should I ask about this? Like let me go ask an early in career person or let me go ask my son, you know, who can take my phone and do a million things with it and you know what I mean? Uh, like things like that. So I think about like who could I talk to about this problem who could look at a different, like an engineer, an app developer or something like that. So that's where I go when I'm dealing with those kind of things is, you know, there's a lot of not um, reinventing the wheel. And sometimes it's just that I can't see it because I'm only seeing it from my lens or what I think the problem is half the time. The problem's actually different than how I initially assume it is.

Speaker B: In pre show we talked a little bit about. We kind of surround ourselves knowingly or unknowingly, we surround ourselves with, with like minded people. And so when you're, you're looking at a problem. If we've got, you know, seven Ryan's in the, in the room, it would be amazing.

Speaker D: Clearly we would be in a great place.

Speaker B: I can't win for losing. So the thing is, is we get, we get just seven of those perspectives would be very, very. They track very similarly. So it's almost like the diversification of ideas. So like that early stage person is going to have a vista or vantage point.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker B: You know, a scientist is going to have a different one. Like just being able. It's almost like the F. Scott Fitzgerald model. Like, you know what, we're going to put really interesting smart people into a room and then, and then throw the problem in the middle of it. Go, what do we got?

Speaker C: What was, what was interesting, Joe, about what you said though is you'll go early stage and someone who has more experience.

Speaker D: Oh, absolutely.

Speaker C: You're not, you're not just saying I need to go with someone who is mentor type, who's above me. You're willing to go down and get perspectives.

Speaker D: Yeah. And I think a lot of it too though is a lot of times when I'm trying to innovate on something, it's something that will be consumed by multiple audiences. So whatever it is, whether it's a performance review thing or. I sent an election message this week in the US And I got a lot of different viewpoints on it. Like how is this outside the U.S. how is this. Because I didn't want just to be about the US because it was really. There's a lot going on.

Speaker B: You're a global company.

Speaker D: M. But um, so that's the way I think about it is like these are your audiences or these are the folks that are consuming whatever you're designing. Um, and a lot of what I tend to do are obviously things that are driving talent strategies of the company or technology or trying to solve a problem we're dealing with. Um, and then I also go to people that I think are my most difficult customers.

Speaker B: Oh, 100%.

Speaker D: You know what I mean? M. I might as well know what they're gonna, you know what I mean, ahead of time. So I can figure out. And that requires you to just have real patience in how you think about things. But you could see value in that. I mean, that's really where this. I know diversity gets, like an interesting perspective depending on who you talk to. But for me, I have teams around me that are, um, lots and lots of different perspectives because I think that's critically important. And, um, we're just better because of it. And I think, um, I can't be great at all these different things. There are certain things I love to do, certain things that I would choose not to do. So, you know, you got to build great teams. I think that's really important, especially if you're going to be a chief people officer. You got to have a real ability to know yourself, too, and then know the company and figure out what are the right places to insert the talent. And then who has, you know, what's that profile look like?

Speaker B: That's what I was going to say. You've got to know yourself and what your strengths are. Like, I surround myself with people that are positive. Yeah, right. And. And also that would. Can withstand me. And, uh, so. So, like those. I thrive with those people. If you put another person like me with me, I don't thrive because I don't like people like me.

Speaker D: Oh, that's so interesting. You know, it's funny. I'm not. This is a whole nother therapy session, but I. I am not wildly creative. I wish I was creative. Like, I love your background, William, but I. I'm not. And so that's something I know about myself. So I don't. I'll go to people that I think. So I guess for me, that's. The other piece is that, um, you need to be aware of that. And then I guess in my job, I got to tolerate. I mean, there's lots of people who think. I mean, I work in a whole company where everybody is. And I mean, the one thing about HR is everybody thinks they're an expert. If I went to them and tried to tell them how to code, they would, you know, even if I could code. Uh, so, you know, that's the interesting thing. You've got to just kind of tolerate or navigate that. So I don't get as much. You know, it's interesting, but I'm very thoughtful about how I approach problem statements.

Speaker B: I love it. I love it. Let's go back to Executive Search for just a moment. Your job after Executive Search.

Speaker D: Yeah. So I went, um, in house, as I said, and I Actually went in as an HR generalist. So I went into a startup, you know, and it was much more ta. So their problem was a lot of hiring, but then there was lots of other things. And it was a startup. It was a startup that was acquired by a company. I don't know if they're still around. They were a consultant company called csc. And so I went in house there and then, um, I ended up contracting after that. So I contracted at Quantum, which was a hardware company. Ah, Raytheon. Uh, and then I moved into kind of one of my first real HR roles, which was really the Sungard. I was at Sungard for seven years and Sungard is a fascinating company. I came in as a, um, kind of a head of HR for their, um, capital markets Auto Financial Systems Group. But it was made up of like 150, uh, founders. So the company got like, they were public and then the company got um, acquired halfway through my tenure by seven pes, including like Silver Lake and BlackRock. So like powerhouse pes. And so they brought in a new chief people officer. And um, you know, I thought I was gonna lose my job. This is always a fun thing. So I just reached out to her and was like, hey, I know you're new. If I can help, let me know. If I'm gonna lose my job, let me know, you know. Cause I got family and I comm. And uh, it ended up that she um, uh, asked me to do a bunch of the change management and the integration, um, of how we were going to redesign this company into four market segments, which we did. But then I had to rationalize like 110 ATS, like 100 plus bonus programs, comp planning, because none of them got rid of anything. So all their little startups, they just all. I don't even. It's funny, I never really thought about it in my own groups I only had like 10 of them. But it was just, it wasn't weird to me that all of a sudden we didn't have like one system. So that's where I started to get into more of this transformational change agent. Uh, and then from there I went to rsa, which is a cybersecurity. I was chro there, acquired by emc, now Dell. Um, and I took a role for a year at emc. I wasn't there when they. Dell happened right after I left as the COO of hr. They had a new chro. Long time, um, Chro. Jack Mullen retired. And then they moved a woman named M.L. krakauer into the Chro role, who was a business person. And so I was able to be a right hand. But then I got a lot of skills in places I didn't have deeper in the system. Shared services, experience, comms, G and A. I ran a budget of like $150 million. So, like, all those pieces of being a public chro that I felt like I hadn't really fleshed out in my career, um, that's what I did. And then I went to the person who was the sun guard Chro went over, um, to Cisco, uh, and brought me over to do TA and CDO and then take on all the roles. And when I left Cisco, I had half of hr. I had, like the only hybrid role. I was a business partner for a $14 billion services business. And I still had TA and I had all that other innovation stuff. So I had a really weird job, but it was a great job. And I actually, I believe very much that we need hybrid roles in hr, especially as our function's getting disrupted because all the entry points into HR are going away. All the entry points into TA are going away. Like, even the agency. I mean, this is a whole other conversation we could have about the role of ta. I think the TA role is going to be less about the find and more about the close and the people I know who are fantastic. It's fine that you'll have an AI tool that can find all the talent, but not everybody's going to take the call. Their resume's not up to date. Some of the best engineers never even touch any LinkedIn or anything. Right. So you still got to be good at that. But that's the pivot, right? So getting good at the pivot's really

Speaker C: important and people will still. We still get debated on, uh, the role of recruiting right now.

Speaker D: I think that's denial. Yeah, I really do. I love.

Speaker B: You know what?

Speaker C: I'm not going any further.

Speaker B: That's exactly what Ryan says. That's exactly what he says

Speaker C: right now. And it was, sorry.

Speaker D: I love recruiters, but when I'm the one who has to make the trade offs, like a third of my budget is recruiting, Right? So just bringing in RPOs, how do I use tools? How do we screen better with tools? Um, bringing in tech, screen, AI, like different types of tools, the hacker ranks, all those things, it's diminishing the role of the recruiter. And I'm not saying that we won't always have great recruiters, because I have a few of them that are fantastic. That Know the space that I'm in so well that they can pick up the, they know the whole map of everything. Those folks will always have jobs, but I think like the ones that are just chasing, you know what I mean? Like that's going to go away because we don't need that. We really won't. And so that's. I think. But uh, HR is the same way. Those rules are changing. I don't need benefits administrators, I don't need first line generalists like you just won't. Because these tools are getting so much better, um, with, you know, generative AI and ChatGPT and those things that the function's changing. But I actually think talent and empathy and org design and these kind of things. Skills and how you pivot the skills against your business outcomes, margins, all these pressures, like I actually think that's where the function could pivot. Um, but I'm not sure the function will adapt fast enough. So it's gonna be very interesting to see what happens with the HR function in the next 10 years.

Speaker C: Yeah. So it's gonna be. My next question. Question was where do these people go so over the next. And, and this isn't happening tomorrow.

Speaker D: No.

Speaker C: Right. This is, this is a 10 year run, maybe more. But I mean, at what point?

Speaker B: Although Ryan, uh, only thing I'll say is sourcing, I think is done.

Speaker C: Oh, sort. Yeah, I, I agree with. I don't know if it's done. It's.

Speaker B: No, I think it's done.

Speaker C: They're hanging on.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, well, yeah, no, the people are hanging on. But I think you can source. You can find the candidates.

Speaker D: You can find the candidates. I think. Do you know what great candidates are? You could use tools to help you with that. I still think people who are amazing at their jobs really have deep networks and things like that. I think those folks will always, they'll always land because they're just savvy and they, you know, they can do their own biz dev if they need to find a role. I think these people pivot to talent. If I were them, I would pivot on skills. I would pivot up because, you know, like this is where the butt and seat thing, like care about what happens after the butt and seat because nobody's doing, I'm sorry, nobody is doing workforce planning. Well, this has been a problem statement my entire career. The only ones that are doing it well are maybe like the um, consulting firms because it's all based on capacity planning. But to be honest, in any company, like how many should I Hire where? When should I walk away from a site? How are the skills changing? Where could I reskill now? I really think it's a very easy pivot for TA because it really is all about skills and then how you understand the roles and how you sell people. And that could turn very quickly into more consultative kind of partner type of

Speaker B: roles, internal mobility, helping them find new paths.

Speaker D: Yeah, so that's the pivot, and that's why I took the pivot. I actually think people who start in TA become fantastic chief people officers because you, you understand the actual ecosystem, you become very data driven. You understand, you know, cost per hire. You know, you're always under those kind of things and it helps you scale when you're dealing with a budget. And people who are always asking, like, why do you need to invest in it? Why do you need more humans? You know?

Speaker B: All right, I gotta ask you a bias question, so be prepared for a bias question.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Hiring a corporate recruiter, do you report? Do you prefer people that came up through staffing over folks that didn't or, uh, don't have any staffing experience whatsoever?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think for me, and what I know about recruiting, I would hire someone that has some sort of recruiting expertise versus someone who comes out of something different. And I say that because there is a mechanism to recruiting and understanding those steps. And I don't really want to spend the time teaching somebody that because I don't need to, because there's such a talent funnel for that. Um, but I do like people who've worked in house because it's a big adjustment if you've gone from search. It's just a different style. And working with leaders. There's a lot of ego with leaders, and sometimes I mean that in a positive way. They're all very talented, but they all think they're the ones who know how to recruit, and many of them actually don't. And so you can't just go at that like you would in an agency. You actually have to do more of, like the people consulting and push and pull and, you know, politics. Yeah, understanding the politics, you know, uh, I would maybe call it more of, um, influencing. But, you know, but that's the thing. You are always going to have leaders who, you know that the first thing they always complain about recruiting. Right. And so, like, how they do it doesn't matter. Any job, doesn't matter what job I've been in. Recruiting is always true.

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, we asked that, I asked, I think Ryan, one of us asked the same question to the global head of TA at Southwest Airlines. Now, uh, he runs his recruiting like a. It is a staffing firm. Yeah, right, right. And it's exactly right. So he prefers people that came from staffing because they have that hustle gene and he needs that, ah, hustle gene. Because Southwest is a client. It's their only client.

Speaker D: I get it.

Speaker B: And they, and they got to run it every year. They got to re up the contract.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: So. So I can see different.

Speaker D: Yeah, I love that, you know, kind of mindset though, because the faster we fill the jobs, the faster we generate revenue.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker D: You know, and so to me, like, if I had. As long as it's with quality. And so, uh, me like having people like that are fantastic. It's just how many of them you have, you know, and so there's other things that I have moved in a different direction on about, like coordination and things like that that I do through an RPO or whatever. To me, that's not where I'm going to invest Headcount. But nominal recruiters that know the industry and know their space and can help, you know, account manage with the business, they're really worth their weight in gold, in my opinion. And I obviously love my TA folks. So to me, uh, if you're starting, you're always in TA somehow, you know, it's of kind. Core to who we are.

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Speaker C: going to cut this clip and, and post it because it's going to be so helpful to, uh, so many people. I mean, we know a ton of people mean like a ton that are out of work right now in recruiting. And I, and I don't know this blanket statement. I don't want a blanket statement. They're. They're looking for recruiting jobs as they would have five and 10 years ago. And it's exactly opposite of what you're saying in a company that they would probably love to work at their heads

Speaker B: in their heads in the sand. They hope it just passes by and

Speaker C: they don't have shot.

Speaker D: I get it. I just think that, um, it's not going to totally pass by. There's just going to be less recruit. Like, I just think that companies, I mean, think about this. When there's, you know, when it's a candidate market, there's more recruiters, and when there isn't, there's less. And now you've got AI that is taking some of the. Like, that function is being disrupted. I mean, that we're seeing it right. But I think the pivot there, I really would. Many of those recruiters do workforce planning. You know, they look at. So, like, it's all how you position your resume. I think the skills piece is huge right now. We're all, like, trying to understand how to, you know, so there's just ways to pivot. Excuse me, to pivot your skill set. That I think, um, would be really important. And then the other thing is be humble and go talk to the people. You know, I'm actually surprised that I'm not offering this in the way that it's probably gonna land. But, like, I'm surprised more haven't come at me. You know what I mean? Like, hey, Jill. Because I can at least make intros. A lot of us can make intros, and we will because we care about this ecosystem, because the ecosystem matters. And it's a, uh, precursor for what's coming, I think, for the HR function. So to me, I spend a lot of time. A lot of the early in career folks are really struggling right now. People graduated college, they can't get jobs right now. Especially if you're in corporate functions or GNA or marketing or any of those things, you just can't get jobs. So I do a lot with that and, like, think about going in through internships or like, how to get clever on certain things. Find something you're interested in and go in that way, and then the market gets better and then you can pivot into your job. So just giving them some different. They don't have to take my advice, but giving them some advice, I think is always helpful too.

Speaker C: Joe, what is your take on mentorship? Um, building that circle of mentors. What's your take on that? How do you approach that?

Speaker D: Yeah, you know what? I, uh, had a lot of people that mentored me kind uh, of as I've been growing in my career. And then I do a lot of that. You know, I've been part of different, like, future Chro programs and things like that. Um, I think that's incredibly important. Um, I do a lot around women as well. You know, we don't have enough women in the C suite anywhere. In the world, in my opinion. Uh, and so I do a lot around that too. Around. You know, many of us sponsor a few folks and try to give them visibility and allyship and things like that. And, um, so to me, I feel that it's really important. I think the only thing is that if you're going to ask somebody to be a mentor, like, you have to have a set of, like, what are you trying to accomplish? Or what do you want to pick? Because sometimes in those meetings, I feel like I end up having to, like, help them help themselves. You know, it's sort of, well, tell me what your perfect job is or tell me what you know. And just so I think, like, some preparedness. If you're going to ask somebody to mentor you.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Um, is important. And I think somebody you have a relationship with is helpful. I get a lot of people come out of the, like, you know, I'd really love to pick your brain. I have a lot of people like to try out all their tools and it's like, okay, well, I wish I had time for all of that, but I have to.

Speaker C: Picking your brain is code for, I'm just gonna waste 30 minutes of your time.

Speaker D: Well, most of the time it's salespeople. And I totally understand an HR tech. It's so 100. Sometimes it's out of left, you know, it's out of left.

Speaker B: I just want, I. I just want you to see the product and tell

Speaker D: us what we're doing, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, send your proposal afterwards.

Speaker C: 1. Follow up to that and then I'll let you run. Um, if you, how do you find a mentor? Right? So if you don't have a relationship with somebody, but you want to ascend to the C suite or into the path, what I just call you and say, hit you up on LinkedIn and say, hey, Jill, love your background. Can you mentor me?

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: How does someone do that?

Speaker D: Well, you could. I don't know.

Speaker C: I mean, this is not an open invitation. This is not LinkedIn.

Speaker B: She hasn't logged into LinkedIn in seven years.

Speaker D: What I would say is, um, LinkedIn's always a good place to. But you should find somebody that can either make an intro that knows the person, but then there's also lots and lots of different organizations. So like in, um, New England, we have the HRLF Leadership Forums. There's Boston HR Council, there's, you know, so join one of those. Because many of them, Nehra, uh, many of them shrm, they all have programs. And so you could enter one of Those programs, yes. It might cost you a little money. Maybe your company would pay for it also. Because a lot of those credits count towards like university credit and things like that. But those programs exist. I know Deloitte offers a, uh, uh, next gen chro program. So like I would get into one of those. I actually sit on two public boards and that's how I got into the public board, into the board space is I started going to like NACD and go into the Stanford board program. And in those you just meet people and it starts to give you some. And then letting people know that you're looking for a mentor or do they know a chro who can mentor. Like that's ah, you know, it's just networking, but that's how I would do it. I wouldn't cold into someone. I mean you can try, but I don't think it'll be as effective. But I think those are also ways to meet people. And many times those people, like a lot of chros go to those programs because there's a speaker or there's awards or something or it's a good opportunity to just network. Um, and like you'll meet people through that. And it's hard to say no to somebody if you're talking to them and you know they're struggling. So kind of use the empathy card. Like I would do that, but there's so many opportunities. You're just got to put yourself out there a little bit.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I have such a different take on mentorship, but we don't have time for it.

Speaker C: Okay, Jill, you don't want to take on mentorship?

Speaker B: No, it's like an arranged marriage, you know, uh, again, if you force people together and they're not prepared, both sides.

Speaker D: Well, some people are full mentors too. I mean, the other thing is somebody who's actually going to give you good advice.

Speaker B: Well, that gets to the. I think it should be a luxury. Yes, it should be a program that you apply to, that you get into, that you're prepared.

Speaker D: And there's some of that, you know, there's some of that, you know, I know, like the hrlf. Um, yes. I mentored three different people and we did like a cohort and things like that. So there are programs that do that. Um, but I think it just depends. Especially again, I think if you're someone that um, has challenges with access, whether you're minority or whatever, um, it's harder, you know what I mean? Or you're a veteran. So to me I feel like there's lots of ways to do that because the barriers are just higher. So some people have access to some of these things, and some people don't. And so to me, I think about that first generation, things like that. So how do we make sure that we're giving, Like, I'm giving good advice here. Like, I think mentors are great. I think coaches are great. I did chief for a little while. Um, so I think there's all those programs, if you want to be a C suite executive, um, that are very helpful. Um, but I think a lot of it, you just got to be scrappy. Like anything else, you know, what is it? You have to know what you want to do, too. Or if you think you know what you want to do, do some research on it.

Speaker B: All right, last question. We'll close out, uh, advice you'd give your younger self. So what would you say to the person, especially in college, right out of college, first job, what would you say to Jill?

Speaker D: Yeah, I would ask them to seriously think about whether they should go to college. I'm just being honest. I have this conversation all the time. We talk about one of my sons as an entrepreneur, and I'm like, why do you want to go to college? And, uh, some of it's the experience, and some of it is he still thinks it's a good entree, and maybe it is in a lot of cases. I think the other thing is, um, find things that you love. And what I mean by, like, one of my sons loved sports. Like, he can remember everything about sports. I was like, why don't you go into sports if you want to do sales or you want to do, like, go into something you love and that you're going to enjoy even on the bad days. You know what I mean? And so to me, um, especially with gigs and everything, there's lots of opportunities to craft a job now that is very different than when I graduated, um, college. And so I think that's the piece that, you know, being able to do something you love and have whatever flexibility you need. Like, I'm not saying everybody gets that, but you do have more opportunity to do that now. So, like, really knowing yourself, I feel like is most important thing. And I think for my younger self, I would just, you know, say, um, I should not sweat. You know, I tend to take on too many things and not prioritize the right, you know, like, prioritize myself the right way. And I think I would tell myself to prioritize that a little more. I've gotten a lot better about it. You Know, as a mom and, um, with my friends because I travel for work so much, so I really try to network and just take that extra five seconds to check in on somebody. Um, but I don't think I did that as well at the beginning of my career. And I probably could have had a lot more fun. Um, and I would say, take risks. You know what? I took a lot of risks in my career and it wasn't linear at all. And so I hear a lot of this now where it's like, I have to have this title or I have to have a VP title. And I'm like, but you're getting paid that way. Why do you care what the title is? And people believe this concept of a career progression. And I would say that's probably one of the biggest mistakes. And I think I thought that too for a while. And now that I've done lots of different things, it just, it brings me like, I'm such a better operator as a result of that. And I wouldn't have been that way if I didn't take some risks and maybe get out of like, oh, I have to take a step back in my title to then do this, you know, And I had to do that when I left Cisco. I had to start in small companies as CPO to kind of get back to the, um, kind of the size that I wanted and that take a

Speaker B: step forward, step back to go forward.

Speaker D: You know what I mean? It's like, well, what do you mean? I was an svp, you know, like, the world doesn't care. Like, you know, life works sometimes.

Speaker C: You're starting over.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Awesome.

Speaker B: You've been wonderful. Thank you so much, Jill. Thanks for carving out time for us and the audience. We just appreciate you,

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