The Intersection Between For-Profit and Non-Profit Organizations and Leadership, with Tom Ulbrich

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Speaker B: Tom um Ulbricht, welcome to the conversation today.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: It is a real pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from New York. I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. Today we're going to be talking about leadership, uh, generally, but specifically the intersection between for profit and nonprofit leadership within organizations and what that can look like and what that transition has looked like throughout your career and how you're dealing with that currently, uh, in your current situation. As we get started, I wanted to share Tom's bio with everybody. Tom Ulbricht is an entrepreneur, educator, speaker, author and social sector CEO at Goodwill of Western New York, a member of the Forbes Nonprofit Council, an executive in residence for entrepreneurship at the University at Buffalo School of Management. He is an entrepreneurial leader with a broad based management experience in both the for profit and nonprofit sectors. His passion for social innovation is focused on nurturing strong relationships and building consensus across diverse groups of stakeholders in academic, for profit, nonprofit and government sectors. I really love everything about that. I, I, I do a lot of work in the social impact and social entrepreneurship space uh, myself and, and so I, I just love it anytime I have have a chance to have these types of conversations because I think we need more cross pollinization in this area. Uh, so pleasure to sit down with you. Uh, anything uh, that you would like to your own background or personal context before we dive on into the conversation?

Speaker C: No, no, nothing really. Uh, Tad, maybe I would just say that um, I uh, spend a lot of my time as a uh, grandfather of six grandkids. So um, super excited to share that. But let's, let's dig into the conversation.

Speaker B: Uh, oh, congratulations. That is beautiful.

Speaker C: Thanks. That's like my most important job right now.

Speaker B: Wonderful. I'm not quite to that stage yet. Um, though, though I'm getting there and I figure my wife and I talk about it, we're like some, probably sometime in the next five years or so we'll probably welcome our first grandchild. Grandchild is my best guess. Um, and uh, yeah, we're kind of excited for, for that stage in our life. So it'll, it'll be fun when that happens. So anyways, Congratulations to you and, and uh, that. That's, that's awesome. Well, why don't we start off with just a little bit of more uh, of a background about your career transition as you kind of went from entrepreneur to nonprofit CEO. Tell us a little bit more about that. Sure.

Speaker C: It's a, it's a bit of an eclectic and long journey but I'll try to share it quickly with you. So um, previously I had been a small business owner and an entrepreneur. So it started my work in a family business uh for many years, started uh a company of my own that I spun off into uh, e commerce business. I was very, very interested in supporting small business owners and ran for public office because they've been doing a lot of advocacy for small business issues. And um, from there I sought election. Didn't um, do too great. But uh, it was a great experience and from there it led me to the University of Buffalo. They've been talking about a lot of small business needs and issues, um, back to my alma mater and at the University of Buffalo School of Management to run their center for Entrepreneurial Leadership which was uh, um, a part of the university that worked with small business owners helping them um, to um, grow their businesses, build their leadership teams. So that's how I ended in the University center. Through all this I still kept my businesses um, and and had had a businesses up until 2019. But at the University of Buffalo my work then led into. I did a lot more teaching and entrepreneurship and I think that the transition for me came here. Um, I was assistant dean and also taught at the uh School of Management but started working with a dean in the School of Social Work, Nancy Smith, who was very, very forward thinking and understood that the social sector needed to think more entrepreneurial. That's where that work started with the action, my love for it. And she really inspired that work. I went on to become uh, uh assistant dean at both the School of Social Work and Management uh and was working on that cross pollinated social sector work. Uh, so that led me to social innovation and a lot of the work was at. What we're going to talk about is this intersection of the for profit and nonprofit sectors. Long story short, that eventually led me to goodwill. I had really honestly back in 2019 was recruited and didn't really have any intention of coming here. But um, over time got worn down with the challenge of you talk about this all the time, why don't you come out in the real world and do this? That does that. And I think the entrepreneur got Excited about, okay, you challenged me, so here I come. And that's how I ended up at Goodwill. Kind of a long story, but, um, important to see how all those pieces kind of fit together.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Um, and I think you're absolutely right. Like, we definitely need more entrepreneurial mindset and entrepreneurial spirit in the nonprofit space, in the social sector space. Um, there's not a lack of big hearts and good purpose. Right. And good intention. Right. Like, that's, that's what the space is all about. So you have plenty of that. You have lots of great people with good intentions. Um, oft often people who want to donate and have money. Um, you know, so you have the philanthropic piece, uh, but. But that isn't enough, like, good intentions and purpose and even money is. Isn't enough. Right. To. To make sustainable impact and to actually make a dent in the big hairy problems that the. That face the world and society and communities. Right. And so that's, that's where, you know, that entrepreneurial mindset and systems thinking and design thinking and like, these different approaches that, that entrepreneurs have to deal with all the time just to. To, you know, user experience, design and like, all these things that, like, just go into having good products and services, um, you know, that actually translate into, um, you know, having a good social enterprise, having a good nonprofit, um, that can actually be sust and make the impact that you want to have. That goes a long, long way.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so. Oh, go ahead.

Speaker C: No, I was just going to say sorry to, to, uh, stomp on you there. Um, yeah, let's. You're absolutely right. And today the world is even more competitive. We're in this rapidly changing, exponentially changing technological world. There's a lot of pressure on, um, nonprofits. Traditional funding is drying up. And what I learned when I was talking about working with Nancy, uh, Smith was we really spoke the same language. At first. I had come from the business school, and I wasn't thinking about entrepreneurship and social work, like social sector, how that connection is. But you nailed it. A lot of what being an entrepreneur is being a good nonprofit leader. You talked about systems thinking and problem solving and customer discovery. In a sense, those are skills of the entrepreneur. And I think another thing that I really aligns well in the nonprofit sector that you bring in, um, from the entrepreneur is an iterative way of thinking. So, um, often nonprofits get stuck. We've always done it this way, and they go down this hard path of we're just going to continue down, but everything's changing. I think that ability to iterate, to gain feedback, take a couple steps forward, one step back is really critical. And that's something that, you know, entrepreneurs or entrepreneurship does well, as well as fundraising, talent development, all those pieces fit together. So it, I kind of chuckle, but we were talking the exact same language. Um, the dean of the School of Social Work and uh, an assistant dean and professor over in the School of Management. And that's where my passion really got, as I said earlier, got fired up. Is exactly what you said. The two, the two fit together. Much of them are the same. Really?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Um, so, you know, before I went on for my. I'm a professor and you know, do things like this podcast on the side, but before I went on, on and did my PhD, you know, I got a master's in public administration. And, and that was like one of the very first things, you know, that I remember. Uh, my professors, you know, tried to hit home to us. Um, you know, as many of us would be going into, you know, some into government, um, but many would be going into the nonprofit space. And you know, they really wanted to double down on this point, you know, that, that uh, they need, the whole nonprofit sector just needs more competent, you know, business minded people. Like people with the skill sets that will help them to be successful. Um, the skills that we were getting in our master's program. Right. Um, and not because the intentions were lacking. Not because the purpose and the meaning and all those other things that exist in spades in the sector, um, those weren't lacking. It's just, it's just you have all these super well intentioned people that get in and, and then they just don't know how to, how to do it. And, and so that I think is a message that can't be repeated enough because I see it happen again and again and again and again. And I don't know how it is out there in New York. I suspect it's similar but like here in Utah we. I haven't looked recently, but for years and years and years Utah has been the highest nonprofit per capita state in the country. And um, and so lots of, lots of, well intentioned people, lots of charitable giving, lots of nonprofits, lots of people setting up nonprofits. And um, that's amazing. Like, that's awesome. Like good, good for people. Right. Um, but on the other hand, that's kind of crummy like that because there's so much replication, there's so much, um, there's, there's uh, instead of People like reinforcing the effort to make a sustainable, um, approach towards solving actual problems. You know, you have all this delusion, dilution of, of effort and replication and, and just inefficiencies and all of these things and it just ends up you know, creating a uh, an ecosystem, a non profit ecosystem that isn't effective. Right. And so ultimately we, you know, we can do better. And, and as you said, all of these various uh, entrepreneurial kind of skill sets and mindsets, business um, acumen, acumen, competencies are going to, to help um, leaders in the nonprofit space to be very, very effective. Uh, and, and so I love everything about that. Um, what one of the things that I think is really interesting is, you know, as I was looking over some of your materials and preparing for the interview today, is just like this idea of transformation and catalyzing transformation, uh, at the, at this intersection of social impact and business best practice. Um, tell us more what you, what you mean about that.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So again my interest here and what, what I see, and it'd be interesting to hear your perspective on it because you're in a similar space. I see this convergence happening that may be leading us to future where the line is a bit more blurred between a for profit and a non profit. Um, I'm thinking 50, 75, maybe 100 years from now, social entrepreneurship may be more the norm of business because nonprofits are being forced to be more entrepreneurial and think about generating revenue as transdra. But for profits are being pushed by society to look at sex success beyond just profit. Right. So sustainability, the triple bottom line. And I'm not going to say we don't still teach students that your job as a CEO is to maximize shareholder value. But we're measuring shareholder value, I think differently. And society is you know, pushing. It's uh, a, it's a morphing thing. So I, that's, that's my interest there. And I really think that this is happening more and more on both sides. So I kind of, you'll see my writing a lot of stuff I do, I still have a foot in both sides and I'm trying to bridge the gap between the two with some what I would call transformational leadership. So again, how can that for profit use some of the best of a, um, nonprofit world where we're um, you know, where we're focused on not just that purely bottom line, but to your point, what you just described, how do we not cannibalize each other in the, in the nonprofit world by having so many people Maybe doing the same thing, you know, replicating CEOs and CFOs and boards and expenses. So I think there's, there's great opportunity here. Um, and I just kind of finish up by saying it's really, if we could get people to see it. To me, it's this concept of you can do good work while you do well, meaning you can, you can do good work in the for profit and the social sector, purposeful work that has great meaning. But you can also do well financially. Uh, an organization can do well financially and sustain itself there. It kind of bothers me a little bit. It's getting better. But there was sort of this martyr mentality if you're going to go in nonprofit sector, that you must suffer, you can't be paid well. And I, we're seeing a shift there. But, but, um, it's, we've got to continue to move towards this triple bottom line for both, for both their sectors, in my opinion. Um, and I may be talking about economics that when it comes to the for profit sector, that people will say you're insane. But I'm just watching society push us this way. The younger, especially the younger generations demanding the change in the for profit sector. Sector.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. I think there's, there's kind of this merging to the middle. Um, and you're absolutely right. Younger Millennial and Gen Z are kind of insisting on this move towards stakeholder capitalism, triple bottom line. And obviously there's like this movement towards B Corp and you know, other, other efforts like that. Right. And ESGs and such. And obviously there's the political pendulum kind of swings back and forth and uh, you know, it can be a little bit turbulent. But I would say generally speaking, across, you know, we're moving more towards, uh, more social responsibility around, around business. Right. Certainly more than we were at 50 years ago or 100 years ago for sure. And, and certainly younger generations are expecting more out of us and more out of business. And, and so, yeah, I see this merging more in the middle, uh, more of the blurring of the lines between like a for profit and a nonprofit. And, and it doesn't need to be an either. Or like you can have, in fact, you need to have, you need to have like a profitable, uh, nonprofit in order for it to meet its purpose and mission. Right. Like, if you have a nonprofit that can't actually keep, uh, its doors open, then how is it actually serving anybody? Right. You have to, I mean, and obviously it has a range of ways to bring in revenue. It can Bring in donations, it can bring in grants, it can bring in, um, you know, other more traditional forms of revenue, like a for profit business would. And so it can diversify its, its approach, but it has to be able to do that and it has to be able to do that, sustain, otherwise it's not going to keep its doors open just like a for profit business needs to. Uh, for profit businesses can't exploit customers, environment, employees. Um, you know, people aren't going to put up with that. And so we have to find a way to, to, to just have a better model. Um, you know, I'm blanking on the name of the author, but the author of the book that came out, I don't know, maybe a decade ago. Donut Economics is another really great example of, of a different mindset of how we can approach this. The bottom line is we don't have to feel like we're stuck in kind of the quote unquote, traditional models, um, of thinking about these, you know, kind of the dichotomous approach towards, uh, you know, how, how this kind of system, uh, of this economic system, uh, functioned. Um, and we can, we can create the, the system that we want and we can create an effective and sustainable system that benefits people, that benefits everybody. And I believe that. And, and I think, um, that's kind of what you're talking about too. And I think that's, that's slowly what we're evolving towards, you know, as we kind of meet towards the middle. So it'll be interesting to see how that continues to, to evolve over time. And of course, as I mentioned, you know, there's political pendulum swings and there's, you know, there's, there's back and forth and two steps forward, one step back. And you know, all of that happens. And so sometimes it feels like, um, you're losing, you're gaining momentum and then losing momentum and whatever. But I would say if you take the long arc of history and you look at like how things are today versus how they were 50 years ago or 100 years ago, we're light years ahead, you know, today of like where things were 100 years ago. Uh, and, and I suspect 50 years from now, we're going to be so far ahead, um, uh, you know, then of where we are now. Uh, so there definitely continues to be progress. I think we definitely continue, um, to move forward in a direction that ultimately is better for consumers, for workers, for the environment. You know, so that triple bottom line that you're talking about ultimately is, is benefiting. We just need to continue, uh, to, to make those efforts.

Speaker C: Yeah. And what's, what's really interesting, um, as I'm listening to you, I was just thinking about for profit nonprofit sectors. And, uh, not for profits, that if you, if your product isn't attractive to customer, there's a mechanism that is going to end your company. That doesn't tend to be as true in the nonprofit world because often there's a series of donors or, uh, grants that will sometimes prop up something a little bit longer than it should because there's some passion. So I bet as I think about the future of this social sector intersection, I agree with you. I think sometimes if we look, we have lots of small nonprofits and that's great. I'm not critical of that. But I think what we need are bigger visions, um, for solving these huge, challenging problems that we have in our world today. And I think a lot about what we should be thinking about is creating movements. And by a movement, I mean something that happens when people join it because they have a sense of belonging, um, and they have this profound sense of mission that they want to support, but they also build the business around it to make it sustainable. So I think about, we build a movement when we belong, but sometimes in our sector we get it backwards. We ask people to belong, um, before they believe in what we're doing, before they're, you know, behaving within the parameters of what we're trying to build. Before. We often don't do all that work before we start with belonging instead of backwards. So I think, I think that's the future of the sustainability of the nonprofit sector is getting these big movements that people can get behind and we can build the infrastructure around to make them successful in the longer term.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's a really astute observation. And, uh, yeah, I think there's so much good happening now. There's so much more we need to do and more that needs to be done. Um, Tom, this has been such a great conversation. I know we've only really scratched the surface here. Uh, I also note the time I'm probably going to need to let you go here in a few minutes as we start to wrap things up for today. I just wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work, your team, and then give us the final word for today.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, thank you again very much, John, for having me, uh, on and sharing a little bit. If you're interested in this work. I think some really good examples I talk about and share a lot are of Goodwill of Western New York, which I'm President CEO of. And you can find us@goodwillwny.org we also do a lot of research to back the work that we're doing. So we publish about every four months we publish a research paper on the work we're doing, um, in our community, um, the mission work, which in workforce development that people certainly may be interested in. And then, um, if you ever want to chat or if you want to find out more about my thinking, you can, uh, find me on LinkedIn, um, under Thomas Ulbrich. And again, thanks so much, uh, for having me today. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: Wonderful. Thank you, Tom. Again, it's been a pleasure. I encourage the audience to reach out, get connected, find out more about what Tom can do for you. And as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe, that you can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day. And I hope you all have a great week.

Speaker A: Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe, and please join us again soon.