Practice Like You Play: How Product Teams Win with Clarity, Conflict, & Staying in the Game

Speaker A: We're back. It's practical product management. And we are going to talk to our friend Gino today. This is like the, uh, guest we've needed for so long. Um, we have. This podcast is all about how product management is done in context. We know there's really good books on theory and how product management should be done, but. But the truth is product management happens in context and you need to be practical about it. So today we're talking to Gino and I'm going to turn it over to you to introduce yourself, and then Marilyn and I will correct anything we want to add.

Speaker B: Well, this has been, um, a long time in waiting. Um, I've actively avoided this for about two years. I think the excuses wore out. I didn't have any more. And they're like, dude, you gotta be here. So now, very happy to be here. These are two of my favorite people ever in the history of the world. Um, I haven't worked with any product managers nearly as good as the two of them. I learned a lot. Everything I know, most of what I know about product management came from Marilyn and Leah. And, um, that makes some people crazy that I've worked with in other places. It makes me crazy.

Speaker C: But that's okay.

Speaker B: It makes right even makes me crazy busy at times. So. My name is Gino White. Um, I currently, I manage a. I'm growing and managing a company called Docket Ellis. We provide technology strategy services to Fortune 500 companies, um, across industries. Uh, fintech, e commerce, big tech, and now pharmaceuticals and life sciences. Um, I've been in the industry for 24 years.

Speaker C: Wow.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I paused just because it's a big number to say out loud. And it kind of, you know, you

Speaker C: started when you were 10. So,

Speaker B: yes, that's the answer in my, my career path. So just start from the beginning. Born and raised in Columbus, Ohio. Um, so I definitely have my Midwestern roots. Still show up here and there. I, um, left there to go to school at mit, where I earned my degree in electrical engineering and computer science. Took my first job at Microsoft out here on the, in the Pacific Northwest. Had never been to the Pacific Northwest before. Didn't like it. Told myself I'm only going to stay for three years and then I'm out. And on my third anniversary of Microsoft, I put my, uh, resume on monster.com because. Because that's where you search for jobs back then. Monster.com and, um, Amazon pinged me and was like, hey, we like, you know, we like what we see. Are you interested? And I'M like, nope, you only sell books. Your bookstore, you're in Seattle, I'm trying to leave. And they were like, no, we're so much more. And they sort of sold me on this idea that they were opening up these, uh, development centers, um, and fulfillment centers all over the US And I would have the opportunity to go to one of those places. So I said, okay, I'll stick around for another two years. And that turned into nine years at Amazon. Um, and that's where I really learned how to build software products and how to execute on very complex delivery of software products. Um, after nine years was enough. Um, so I left there, went to Expedia, um, where I managed cross functional product development teams over there for about four years. And I, um, I was successful in pulling both Marilyn and Leah into Expedia. I was unsuccessful in retaining them for any, for, for any meaningful amount of time.

Speaker A: 11 months and one week.

Speaker B: Um, but, uh, I was so proud of myself that, uh, we were able to, to pull this gang back together again and do some work there. Um, and then after about four and a half years at Expedia, that's when it was time for me to step out and try this consulting thing on my own. So I've been doing this consulting thing for about, um, for seven years now. It'd be seven years in July. Um, in that time I've also taken some gigs with, uh, some, some other companies that were, that I've learned a ton from. Most recently Moderna. I did a stint with Nubank, um, did some stuff with, uh, Stubhub and ebay and all great companies that I just continue to learn from in terms of how they approach producing software systems.

Speaker C: I love it.

Speaker B: That's the journey.

Speaker C: So I feel like the one thing that we, for we neglected to mention up front is, Gino, you were, you were there when the, this podcast was conceived. This was a wild idea that came out of a chance meeting of the three of us in London.

Speaker B: In London.

Speaker C: I feel like I had had more than one cocktail.

Speaker B: We were definitely in a bar talking about this. It was definitely in a bar.

Speaker C: We were too. Um, and we were talking about someone's book or someone other's book and how the companies and people that we talked to like, really get wrapped around the axle about this one, this one framework. Um, and Leah and I were like, that's ridiculous. We should do a podcast. And then we did, which is kind of how everything has happened in my life. So let's, let's take that just a step further. I Know that a lot of the companies you go into and a lot of people that both Lee and I talk to, they'll often say like, oh, I want to be product led, or I want to build software like Amazon.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Uh, they come in with these concepts and then they come to people like you and they say, make me product led.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: How do you approach those conversations? Because it's not like, buy the book and do the thing.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, and I definitely love that aspect. Like, they're like, we want to do it how Amazon does it.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And I'm like, I don't think you know what you're saying.

Speaker C: And we've got leadership principles. We built leadership.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker C: We're almost there.

Speaker B: So, um, I like, I usually, I chuckle inside first. That's usually the first reaction. Um, and then I do what I do, I start to ask a lot of questions, right? Like, I try to understand first, what do you even think that means? Like, when you use those words, what do you. What does that look like? Um, who do you think you need to be involved? Why don't you just do that now? If you know what it is, why aren't you doing it? Right? And there's something, there's something blocking them from doing it. Um, and then try to understand, well, why do you even want to do it? Like, what. What will be better? So there was a, um. Actually when we were addicts, uh, when we were at Expedia, um, Fred Ward Bell, our. The VP of um, the organization we all work for, he brought in a couple of different consultants, like organizational development type consultants. Um, and one of them was Ian McKelvey. And, uh, Ian McKelvie, he runs a consulting, um, company called Because. And one of the things that, uh, like Ian was awesome. And one of the things that he taught me, um, when I left Expedia to start my own thing was this. It was a way to sell. Like, I'm not a sales and marketing guy. I just want to get in to solve the problems. But apparently you got to convince people to let you solve the problems first. It's kind of crazy.

Speaker A: You want to get paid, right?

Speaker B: So you got to do the sales and marketing dance. Um, but Ian, he, He gave me this, um, the sort of approach for that. Um, and it's just a series of questions, which is right up my alley. And so first you want to establish that it's a, it's an R. Um, you want to establish a relationship, the basis for the relationship with the client and the types of results that they are trying to get. So you're asking like, okay, I hear you say that you want to be product led in this way. What does that mean? What does that look like? Like, if you project out one year from now, how do you know that you're now being product led or you're doing right? And what type of relationship would we need to have in order for me to help you do that? So that's the R. And then you start asking questions about, well, uh, detractors. Why aren't you doing it? Now, you seem like you sound very convinced that you know what you want, right? You describe to me what you want the end state to be. Why aren't you just doing it? And that. And of course there are answers there, right? Like either they don't have the team or they don't have. Have the talent, they don't have the time. They might not have the money, they might have executive backing. Um, it. Some combination of those things. Um, and then once you understand that, you try to understand, well, what are. Talk to me about the opportunities not just for your group or the company, but also yourself as an individual. Because a lot of people will, um, hey, we're. We're motivated on an individual basis. Right. We want to do well for ourselves, um, also. And that's okay. And sometimes people are using these terms. What I found is they're using these terms or to have these concepts just because they think it suits them, but it may not necessarily suit their team.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Or their product. Right. Uh, so I tried to get a sense of that and then, um, fall back. Okay, Understanding all that, what strength. Assuming we enter into this relationship, um, what strengths are currently? Um, what strengths do you have in your. On your team, in your organization, whatever that we can leverage to give us a tailwind to really get started in this and that. And then they start to, they start to identify, um, what you can leverage. Right. To really get in and get going. Uh, and by the time you have that conversation, you have either confirmed, um, that they understand what product led means, what it looks like, or you've confirmed that they don't. Right. And you've helped them to understand where they don't. Usually it's like, okay, yeah, when you use that word, I thought I was thinking something completely different. And now that you've explained it in the context in which you're operating in now, I think we have a better conversation of what that might look like.

Speaker A: Do you think that sometimes, I mean, you kind of hinted at this, but sometimes there's a, um, I Mean, everybody's got an agenda, right? But sometimes there's, like, a personal agenda to say, like, we want to have the kinds of results that Amazon has, or we want to have the kind of name that Amazon has, or we, you know, everybody wants to be the Airbnb of such and such and the Uber of such and such. And I'm like, you can't be the Airbnb of such and such if you build this. Right. Like, whatever this is, you know? So do you think that that agenda. Do you see that often, once they understand what the benefits will be that they're able to put that agenda aside? Or is it always sort of driving from another. Another direction?

Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of times, uh, given the type of work we do, even the type of work that I do, but we do it. Dakadellis. Um, we're fortunate enough to work with senior leaders in organizations, and when they're convinced, they're convinced. Right? So. So they're not often willing to set those things aside. Um, so what I have found is more. More effective in getting. And having them think through that a little deeper is like, okay, let's say that is the thing. You want to be the Airbnb of such and such.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Awesome. What are the steps? Uh, where are you to. Given where you are today? What are the steps it takes to get there? Right. So let's treat that as our North Star. What are the first two or three steps that we need to take to get there? And then let's execute on that and do that and then reassess. And if you pivot, if you got to pivot between now and then, like, pivot between now and you give yourself an inability to pivot with data. Um, so I don't try to talk them off of that, because I found that they're not. Not all, but a lot of these senior leaders, they're not. They're convinced. Right. By the time they're coming to people like us.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They're like, I know what I want, man. Just do that.

Speaker C: Just make it happen.

Speaker B: I don't know if you do, but.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker B: But once you start working with them. Right. That's your. That's the opportunity. I've also found that that's the opportunity to, um, bring some. Some reasonableness. Inject some reasonableness into the whole thing.

Speaker A: Right, Right. Well, I mean, I don't know, but I. I would assume I've seen this in things I've gone into, because I feel like every company I've gone into has wanted me for that for a reason. Right. They're looking to make some sort of change and they're like, oh, that's the person that can help us do that. And there's always this moment when they realize it's hard.

Speaker B: Yep. Much harder than they thought.

Speaker A: And you're like, oh, I'm sorry, did you think I, uh, did I say it was going to be easy? Did you get confused?

Speaker B: Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. I don't think I did. Right. And uh, that's often to me, the moment when they either like, they're in or they're out.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And you start introducing some rigor. Because I always tell people I went to Amazon a really good product manager. I left Amazon an even better product manager. Because of the rigor.

Speaker B: Because of the rigor, exactly.

Speaker A: Hard and wearing. But I learned rigor.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so then when you ask me to come do it with you. Get ready.

Speaker B: This is. Yeah. And that. And that. And that's why we all chuckle inside when we hear stuff like that. Because we know the rigor that we had to, uh, apply in that environment in order to do things in that way. And they don't see that. They don't know. You can't, you can't even guess at that though. Like, that's not even.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They can't imagine.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That.

Speaker A: I mean I'm, I remember being in a room with Marilyn and ah. And the conversation being like, well, this thing is impossible. We can't do this thing. And we were like, I mean, of course you can. Amazon does.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: They have billions of transactions a year. So of course we can. We can do that. We can't. Impossible. And we were both like, what are you talking about? Right. What it is, is hard.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Not impossible, but it's hard. And I mean, that was when we sort of coined the idea that like, we do hard things. That's our job.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: It's hard. And there might be a cost and so you need to decide if you're willing to pay the cost to get the thing. But impossible is not a thing.

Speaker B: It's not a thing.

Speaker C: It's not a thing.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: I love Gino that you start with questions. Um, and I think it's a thing Leah and I tease you about other than liking cocktails with flowers in them. It's the thing we teach you about the most, uh, is that you ask a ton of questions.

Speaker B: I feel like a good flower makes it.

Speaker A: I mean, he can't help that he drinks like a 16 year old girl,

Speaker B: which, which still bothers me. Every time you say it. Because they shouldn't be drinking,

Speaker A: but, you know, there's.

Speaker C: And let's move on.

Speaker B: And I'll just say I've never been in a room with a 16 year old girl drinking, so I don't know what it means.

Speaker A: Oh, no, but you have.

Speaker B: Wears me out.

Speaker C: Ah. Um, personally, I think it's your superpower. Your ab. Not your ability to drink with the flowers. Ask questions. Your ability, your ability to ask questions. Um, and I, I will, like, I tell the anecdote all the time. Like, Gino's going to come in and he's going to ask you a ton of questions and it's going to make you crazy, but he's asking you to explain your thought process. You have personally asked me 16 whys in a row. I, like, I would talk and you would just say, but why? Um, until I finally like, flipped my lid. But the, the beauty.

Speaker B: They were all necessary.

Speaker C: They were all necessary. They were all necessary and entertaining. The beauty of this is I have watched. I mean, entertaining for you. I think by the end I was like, I was ready to throw a pen. Uh, which I, Which I have done in the past.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Not at someone, just into the garbage can, because I was done. But, um, I have personally watched you. We have been in a room with a wide range of executives, all of which were convinced they understood how a process worked. And they were, they, they used the same words and they spoke about it with authority. Um, and the thing was broken and the whole company blamed tech on. You know, they built the thing that was broken. And you have very patiently, um, made everybody in that room crazy by asking questions and documenting what people thought they knew on a whiteboard and helping them understand that none of them were aligned. None of them were aligned. And so it's not just that their engineers sucked, it's that rigor in understanding what they were building and why they were building it and how it was going to operate. Um, that you brought to a situation that helped peel apart the issue that it wasn't the engineers that were useless.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Was that there was not enough rigor in the process. And I actually believe that's probably one of your biggest superpowers.

Speaker B: I appreciate that, Marilyn. I like the way you put it. Superpower. But really, I think it's, um. I operate on the principle of keep it simple stupid. Right. And when things sound overly complicated, they usually are. Right. And that's where you got to dig in. The, um. And by the way, like, I'm not. I think there's A difference between complexity and complicated.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I love complex, complex things. I can deal with complexity all day long and work through it. Complicated, um, is just complicated and sorry can I say it on the podcast?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: We sometimes keep track of how many squares we have.

Speaker B: Swear. Sorry for the. But complicated is just complicated and this and that. And that's this use. It's. It's wasteful when it's complicated and I, I use that as a mechanism to one. My brain just can't handle super complicated stuff. Um, so I do that. I use that, that method of just. Hey, let's stop. Say the thing. That you just say the thing over here and you say the thing over here. I don't think those are the same things. Here's why. And then you have them talking. But that's just keeping it simple really. Like, let's not assume that everything we think is right is correct. Let's not assume that everyone else is wrong. Let's state the things and then compare. And when you do that, when a room of execs, of course that's kind of like. Right. But it's actually a good use of 30 minutes or 40 minutes or an hour. Right. Oftentimes,

Speaker A: yeah, for sure. And I think like, um, how do you know? I guess I'm all. I have watched you similarly. Do those kinds of things lead a team through those kinds of questioning? How do you know when you're not getting to the heart of it so that you keep going deeper? What's the. Is it. Is it intuition? Is it like what. What's there that you go m. I want to go one. I'm going to ask question number 17.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um. It's not. I don't think it's intuition for what the answer is.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: I think there is a. It should make sense. Like, and I'm overly simplifying it by saying that. But it should make sense and when it doesn't, it's like, no, that's not. Still doesn't make sense. Like still doesn't jive with me. I don't know what to do with that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: If I stopped here right now, I don't know what action I should take to help you.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so we're. We're nowhere. So. So I have to ask another question to get more clarity so I can figure out the action that I need to take or the action I need my team to take or, or whatever. Or that we're trying to take collectively. Um, the. Now Paul's about the intuition thing. Like it's not just intuition. I know the answer. But sometimes you kind of do know the answer. Or I will say, uh, I form hypotheses relatively quickly. Right. I think this is where this is probably going to land.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And oftentimes I'm guiding. I'm asking the questions to. To not to guide the. Not to lead the witness. Marilyn likes to say, don't lead the witness. And I've learned that from her. Don't leave the witness. Because I sometimes will lead the witness. But, um, ah, I asked the questions to test out those hypotheses.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: And I'm trying to get to like a definitive. Is that hypothesis? Right. Or is it wrong?

Speaker A: Right, yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and so that's also a motivation for me to keep poking.

Speaker C: Well, I love that question, though, coming from you, Leah, because you like, think about, think about your superpowers, which is like designing platforms and systems.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: You do the exact.

Speaker B: Leah. Leah has the answer.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: But she's, you know, she has the answer 90 of the time. 98 of the time. But she has to bring the others along.

Speaker C: Exactly. Right. You. You. And I think that there's been times where I've been like, just tell me, just tell me.

Speaker B: Right, yeah.

Speaker A: Like, let's just play the game.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah, no, but I. So I think of intuition. Part of the reason I asked that question is that I think of intuition as like, you know, the way I talk about this is if I used Amazon's leadership principles, you know, you have the leadership principle of data driven decision making.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you have the leadership principle of is. Right. A lot. Yep. Ah. And those are in tension. They are in. They have some tension between them. Right. Because you might have some data, but you then also have a gut check that goes, something's off, or you might not have enough data and you need to still go, yep. Right. And what the. So, so that tension is okay with me. I'm a person who's okay with that tension. Right. The other thing that I think is all three of us can do, and it's one of the things I really enjoy doing, but it's. I think all three of us. I've seen both of you do this. There's a lot of intuition. That is pattern recognition.

Speaker B: Right. And I would, I would, I would classify it more as pattern recognition.

Speaker A: Right. It's Tetris. You put the problem in front of me and I, you know, I've watched both of you do the exact same thing I'm going to do, which is stand back, look at the thing, and then Go, let's do that.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And everybody's like, why?

Speaker C: Yeah, this one over here feels really weird. So, like, problem number one, like, let's. Let's fix this thing over here.

Speaker A: Yeah. So for me, I mean, I remember being at Amazon and, um, one of the engineers coming to me and saying, can I. Can I draw something for you? And I was like, yeah, goes to the whiteboard, draws a thing. I'm like, what do you need me to do? And he's like, something's wrong with it. And so I'm there to just look at it and go, I mean, I think it's something over here. And he's like, yeah, that's where I thought it was, too. Right. And my job was to look at the pattern and say, given the pattern of the thing you drew, there's a service or something not here. Right. And that's. To me, that's intuition, because I don't know. Right. I don't know for sure, but I have a gut check that there's something wrong in that part of the picture. Right. So that's why when I hear you talking about it, like, when we talk about intuition, that's really how I think about it. It's. It's pattern recognition for man. I've been here before.

Speaker B: Yeah. I've seen something like that before, and that just doesn't sit well.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker B: I was just gonna say, as an example of that, like, there were several times at, um, Moderna, when Merlin and I were at a Moderna, where we sit in a room and people would say. They would just say something, and it was it. They're just explaining something. Right. And we would both perk up simultaneously and sort of furl the. Say, I will furrow the left brow. She would furrow her right brow. And then. And we would both be like, but that's not a regulatory constraint. Or that's not a, uh. Why is legal a part? Or why that doesn't make any sense? And they'd be like, how are you two on such. Like, on the same accord? So often? I'm like, because we've experienced and solved some of the same problems in the same places. Right. And so if that's what intuition is, then I would say, yes, it's learned patterns, definitely.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, there's an element of being the person in the room with discernment. Right. Like, given ideas. I'm like, I mean, we could do this, this or this, but I'd do that.

Speaker C: Yeah. And.

Speaker A: And knowing to your Point that I have a hypothesis for. Why. So let's go that direction and if along the way I'm proven wrong, we'll go another direction. Right. Like I can be wrong. Let's just go fast and as soon as we're wrong, let's move.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: So now that's the other, that's the other thing where people get really mired down in this is, um, like how much information do you need to make a decision so that you can learn if it's the right decision, yes or no. I mean, some things are easy. Right. Some things you're like, well, duh, this is kind of just how it works. Um, and some things are like, you know, we could get to 70% of the information, make a decision, have a quick pivot.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but I think a lot of companies aren't set up for that. And you know, executives, people with important titles don't want to be wrong and be like, we tried that and then we learned this and we. Because that makes them question their own. I don't know. I think people get really wrapped up in being right.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: So kind of bringing in the safety to not always be a thousand percent. Sure is.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I was going to actually comment to that effect in an example that Leah gave earlier when she was saying like, um, we spoke about it in the context of Amazon, but we see this in a lot of places where, um, in some companies at least, like you have the tension between the. Is right a lot. Now not all, every company states those as leadership principles. Yeah, got it. But, um, the, the tension between is right a lot and data driven decisions.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker B: And I was gonna say one of the things that really set the, the companies that, that do things well, right. In, in my opinion, that embrace those sort of, um, those two things, whether they're stated as leadership principles or not, um, what makes them good is they are willing to get it right the second or the third time right. They have left less emphasis on getting it absolutely right the first time. And whenever I go into situations where I'm talking to a company or an executive or a leader of a team and such a strong emphasis on we have to get it right this one time, this first time, that's a big red flag for me.

Speaker C: Me too.

Speaker B: Um, I will say in Gone and I don't want to, it ought to be about Amazon, but one of the things that Amazon, that made Amazon great, in my opinion, is they got it right the second or third or fourth time. Like very rarely did they get it right the first time. And they were okay with that. Right. But they learned just from doing it the first time. They learned and then they were able to pivot and do other things. Um, and a willingness to. To Maryland's. To what you said Maryland. Your point, Leah? Like man, let's, let's be agile. And in some ways that's embracing the agile, the spirit of agile.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I don't know what an agile mindset. I don't even know what agile is anymore because whenever I talk about it I get like all these weird responses and reactions. But there's still a spirit of agile, I think that is applicable. Um, and companies that really embrace the spirit of it. Like look, we're going to learn fast and make adjustments fast. Yeah. That you have more freedom to make decisions with imperfect data.

Speaker C: A hundred percent. I think that's. You just hit on something that's like. It's like what? Like you said, like, you know, you don't get it right. If we have to get it right the first time. Um, like what is it? Because you can set a North Star. Like I'm going into this region and I'm going to do this thing and you can get it right. But you don't have to have it all mapped out on day one. You understand your biggest risk areas and start knowing more about those areas now. Because it probably isn't going to change if it's strategic enough or outcome driven. But how you go about going for it, unless you're just like, well hey, copy what company B did because you know, we don't have a better idea and they're successful. Um, which I think is a bit of a cop out really. It's not thinking about it from a customer perspective, but what, you know, define your IT in a way that allows you to chase those goals in an iterative fashion.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And who is responsible for defining the it?

Speaker C: Mhm. I mean that's a, that's a good question, Gino. That opens up a whole basket of cats. And this is going to take me back to my. Like, I want to be product led. I want to be product led. M doesn't mean hire a cpo. And then everybody else just sort of like.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Calls at their feet and worships like takes a nap. Right. Everybody else can. Everybody else can just do whatever that person says and we're gonna be.

Speaker B: She's got it. She'll figure it out.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, but that is a.

Speaker B: But that is a product management function. I'll say, I don't know who, what person it is. But I think it's the product management function to define the it in a

Speaker C: way, understand the problem, who is the customer, what is their problem, why should we solve this problem now? And what is the business outcome we're trying to drive? I agree those are all product management functions, but I don't think they sit in a room, uh, by themselves with, you know, with, with earplugs in and just, you know, decide all this. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I actually think that. I think there's an army that comes together and there might be key decisions that get made.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: And obviously there's an executive board that has a strategy for the business. But, you know, the product manager, the product team will help to define that along with engineering that will say, here, the, here are the seven ways we can solve this problem. Like, this is actually one of the funnest things that I personally learned at Expedia was when you, as a product manager, or as a leader of product managers, when you bring a problem to an engineering team, um, they're going to find you more than one way to solve it. And that's pretty darn cool because now you've got speed options, you've got quality options, you probably have feature options. And if you're in there defining the feature down to like, you know, here's the code you need to write, you are robbing yourself of having some of the brightest minds help you solve a problem.

Speaker B: That is absolutely cool. I've operated some environments in recent years where it was not embraced as cool, though. It was kind of, it was kind of scary to them. Or like, why are you guys going down so many different directions? And, uh, that's a rat hole. Just do it this one way. And it's like, well, that might not be the best way for your customers or for the business, where the business wants to be in two years. And yes, um, I've struggled, um, with some leadership teams that were not, uh, as open to hearing from engineering the different ways that things could be approached 100%.

Speaker C: And I've actually, I've actually seen some of the people that I've experienced be very limiting. Like, you must do this one tiny thing this way. They're now on stage talking about how to be digital first, which is an antithesis of what I think is of being digital. Digital first is about learning fast. It's about looking at the data. It's about understanding your customer. Um, it's about sort of like going after outcomes, not how can I boss around, you know, seven engineers who sit together and are terrified of me.

Speaker A: Um, but I mean, this is that thing that I say. I think I've probably said this on the podcast before, but when I am leading. So I would say for the last, I don't know, eight or nine years, my teams have been cross functional. So I have ultimately had leadership of the engineers, the designers, the product managers, sometimes marketing people, sometimes legal people, whatever. And, uh, when I'm hiring engineers, I know I don't need to say this to product managers usually, but I always say, I don't hire you for these.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: These I can buy cheaper.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: I hired you for this.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Thing.

Speaker A: Tell me what you know. If you're not going to tell me what you know. I don't need these.

Speaker C: Yeah. Ah, you need to have an opinion in the room that you sit in, my friend.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's. And I think if you are, if you join a company where they don't. They want just these, just fingertips. Give me the thing to build. Leah. Uh, the. Nothing infuriates me more than an engineering team who's like, what do you want me to build? I don't know. Here's the problem. Tell me what you're going to do with it.

Speaker B: Right, Right. Be problem solvers.

Speaker A: Yeah. You joining or are you just taking orders? Because I promise you, being part of. It's way more fun than taking orders. Yeah, right. Um, but sometimes it requires like a. A shift, you know, in. In freedom and the ability to think and the ability to, like, be more, to ask a hard question, to wrestle with something. Um, you know, and I just think that there's a. If you really want to be product led or product focused or do that, then be willing to come to the table and say, I'm willing to change how I approach things. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah. Culture. That's a culture shift. It's not just a. It's not a process or procedural shift.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Otherwise I'm, um. Like, you're just running out in front of everybody and everybody's just sort of sitting back and like, seeing if you're going to succeed or not. Are we doing this together or not?

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: We're not doing it together. What am I doing here?

Speaker C: Otherwise that, uh, you know, you get brought in, it becomes a sacrificial. Like, the team wins together. Right. You don't hire one soccer player and then everybody else is like, we'll be over. We'll be over here, uh, hanging around the water cooler. If you don't win, we're gonna just fire you and get another one.

Speaker A: Right, exactly. What do you think the question is that these kinds of leaders should be asking themselves and their team to find out if they. They're ready? Yes. For whatever reason.

Speaker B: Product led approach.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I want to be digital. I want to be product led. I want to be, you know, I want to focus on. I want to be customer obsessed, whatever.

Speaker C: All of those words.

Speaker A: What questions should they be asking themselves to find out if they're actually. They and their teams are actually ready?

Speaker B: Um, I think there's a few in sort of sequence. I think the first is, seriously, it's why. And it's not. And it's not why. So when we were, um,

Speaker C: uh, we

Speaker B: were meeting with some of our business leaders, um, at Moderna, and, uh, one of our. One of our engineering leaders, he. In a room, we were asking some why questions and it was kind of putting people on edge. And they're like, you know, I keep challenging us with why. And one of our leaders, Leaders, uh, engineering leader Joe Blotner, um, he said, hey, these. Why. When we ask why, it's truly wh. Y. It's not wtf, Right? It's a. I love that response question of why. Okay, so don't assume that we're assuming or we're posturing or anything. And that. I'm like, that's awesome, Joe. Because a lot of times people are. It's a. They're challenged. They feel challenged, and they respond in kind, defensively Right. When they feel challenged by it. But I think it's a legit, like, do some inspection of yourself and your team of why do we need to get this? And the answer it like, I know I had to tell people what's a bad answer, but a bad answer is because they do it like that.

Speaker A: Like that's.

Speaker B: That's a terrible answer. Um, or because we think it'll make the team feel better. Nope. Not a good answer. The only good answer is because it will effectuate a certain outcome.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Okay. So what is the outcome that we believe shifting our. Our. The way we operate our operating model.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: To that. What outcomes will it drive? Right. So I'd say first ask the why, but get clarity on that. And then if you can state what you think those outcomes are. How do you know? How will you know when you got there?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: When that's achieved. Right. Um, and then if you can define that, if you're willing to. That. Because that's not easy. That's not easy.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: To define. Oftentimes that takes some time and energy, uh, from people to do. But then once you get there. Okay, now how do we. What are some reasonable. What's a reasonable approach? Right. How do we actually execute on that, knowing that now we've established a North Star, we're probably not going to get there. They think they're going to get there in six months. Now they know they're not going to get there. Six months, Leah, like you said, it's a lot harder than they think. What are some reasonable steps and checkpoints we can, um, build in milestones, Right. To give us. To let us know if we're trending toward that or not. Like, those are the questions that I think are very important. And if they can have that conversation even internally, then they know what type of help they need or who they have, who they don't have, um, that type of thing. But I think you first got to answer the why question. Like, why? Is it just because it sounded cool?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: My friend, he's a CTO over there. They did it.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: That's a terror. That's the wrong reason.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I mean, especially when you're talking about operating models that impact, you know, a wide variety of people in the company. And I think I'm, um, you know, I'm. I have seen this, and I'm seeing it in. In other places now. Great. That someone else in another company. You did this, you operated this way somewhere else. Well, you're not there anymore.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: And by the way, when you tell a whole nother group of people that their job is stupid or what, like, whatever you were, like, you're actually blowing up company culture, you're making it harder because people flip into defense. And I've literally been to companies, um, where they've tried transformation, digital transformation. Like, if I ever see the words digital transformation immediately break out into a rash, because they've tried digital transformation three times. And the people that have been with the company 10, 15, 20 years, I have literally had someone say to me, I'm just gonna wait this out. He's gonna be gone in a year

Speaker B: and a half, right?

Speaker C: And then we'll just keep going. Like. Like this is. This is temporal. The company's forever. And I'm just not. I'm gonna tell this person one thing, and I'm just gonna keep doing the other thing. And you will never change a company by doing that.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: You're never going to get the outcome you're chasing. You're going to get a bunch of people telling you what you want to hear and not actually changing, not driving an outcome, because we haven't even agreed on the outcome.

Speaker B: Right. Let's get to an outcome. Let's define that. I will say, though, and this is. Excuse me, I don't think this will contradict what I said before, but another acceptable answer. I don't know if it's a good answer, but an acceptable answer is, might be because we just want to learn.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Right. We want to try this thing out. We're not sure if this is going to work. We're not sure if it's going to help us to do better later over there with that thing. Right. But we want to learn. We're curious.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And ah, then it's like, okay, awesome. Let's do this in a way that helps you to learn where you're not. Let's. Let's limit the investment in it. So just so that you can learn something, not so that you change the entire operating model in the organization. Right. Because now the way you approach it is completely different.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think that mindset, that learning mindset allows you to build something that is right for the company and the context that you're in to sort of bring it back to, like, why we get together all the time and talk about this stuff. Like there is a flavor for your company and it probably isn't out of a book.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: But it's going to get you the outcome you want.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well. And I think it's interesting just going to. What you said, Marilyn, and I think Gina touched on this as well. Like when you're going to enact change, when a change is needed and you're brought into a change, like the science says, you got champions, you've got the people in the middle who are like, I don't know. But I'm, um, willing to see where this goes. We, I know we need a change, but I don't know if this is the change. But I'll, um. Let's see. And then you got straight up detractors.

Speaker C: Yep. Yep.

Speaker A: I always take the principle of listen to the detractors real closely.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Go in and be like, why do you hate this so much?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Why are you saying absolutely not? No. This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Tell me. I can take it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I don't care if you think I'm an idiot, because that's fine. Tell me why you're so opposed to this. Because they either will uncover some, um, real biases that exist in the company that you are going to fight. Whether you fight them or someone else, you're going to fight it, or they're going to tell you something you need to know before you ever say yes.

Speaker B: Yes Right.

Speaker A: To this is the way we're going to go forward. Because they've often been there, done that, and are like, you're the flavor of the month.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: That guy that says he wants change is never gonna change, and you're like, uh, okay. Right. So now you have some different questions to go ask. Right?

Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. They're not. They're not. Problem. They might. They're seen as those detractors, and you can. They're usually pretty easy to identify. Um, but they're not really problem children like that. They have a perspective that is extremely valuable and they should be treated in that way. Like, hey, that's a very valuable perspective. Y. Yeah, totally.

Speaker A: And there is. There comes a moment, once you move through that sort of initial phase, I do believe there comes a moment when you say it's time to get off the pot. Right. Like, you with us or not. Right. Because we're going here and, uh, everybody. We've. We've gone. We understand the concerns, but now we're going. You coming or not? Right. And I think that there comes a time for that. That conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And they may say, yeah, okay, I'll come along and. And then they will pull you the other way and you will spend some energy. You have to decide what. How much energy you're going to give them. Or they will. They will opt out. They'll say, I don't want to do this. Okay.

Speaker B: Which goes back to something you said earlier in the conversation about the rigor required to change. Certain organizations.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, disagree and commit is. It's hard as hell.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's. And it's completely foreign in some environments. Like what?

Speaker A: Yeah. You want me to.

Speaker B: What, you want me to disagree but still commit to doing that thing that I think is so dumb. And it's like, yes, but that requires some. I mean, there's a lot. But that's part of the rigor. Right? Like, yes. And if we're wrong, we can still change and move and go in another direction. And we're not going to be idiots. We're going to be mindful. We're going to have data. Right. But that's what that requires. And that. That is, uh. Anyway, the real reason I'm bringing it up is that that's one of the, um, things I've struggled with going as a consultant. You go into these different environments for six months, nine months at a time. 12 months at a time. So you see lots of different things. That one is the hardest one that I think is necessary.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: For. To drive change in environments that is just not. It's not there in a lot of environments.

Speaker A: Well, I. I also think that there is a. I think there are a lot of leaders, and I'm going to poke at founders and CEOs in particular, but I think a lot of leaders in general who say they believe in disagree and commit, and they want disagree and commit as part of their culture. What they want is agree and commit.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And as soon as you disagree, they're like, well, what's it going to take to convince you? You don't have to convince me. You don't need to convince me. I'm telling you, I'll go with you. I just don't agree with what we're doing. I think it's wrong. But I'll come with you. Well, but I want you to agree. Well, but I don't. I mean, I've literally had this exact conversation with the CEO. I don't agree with you, but I will go. If that's what you want to do, let's do it. Okay. And I will never. And the thing is, I told him. I will never say I told you so. I will just come with you.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Works.

Speaker A: It works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But I'll come with you and do

Speaker B: everything I can to make it work. Everything. But that's. But that's kind of.

Speaker C: But that's.

Speaker B: That's what's rare, though, right?

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I think their BS meters probably go off when they hear you say that, because how many people have they actually seen do that?

Speaker A: Right. Right. Well, and we, like, let's not. Let's not fool ourselves. I'm not gonna kit a kidder on this one. You've both seen what my face looks like when I disagree.

Speaker C: You and I have disagreed. Like, you and I have disagreed.

Speaker A: I have the. I have the harshest. Like, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard face when I disagree.

Speaker B: I can't wait to play high stakes poker with Leah. I feel like I will always know what card she's holding.

Speaker A: John Stockamp used to say, I want you to bring your paycheck and come play poker. Because he's like, I could take every dime in your. In your bank account. Because he's like, you don't have. You give. You have no poker face. And I'm like, zero. I'm not trying to have one.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I'm not playing the game.

Speaker A: Not even trying to like. But I think that's part of the problem is that what they don't understand is that I can vehemently disagree with you, explain why, and then say, it's your call, let's go. As, um, long as it's not illegal or immoral.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: I can think of a time when you and I had exactly that same conversation, Leah. Ah. Where like, we just disagreed on a path forward. Um, you turned to me and you were like, I hope you're right. And I was like, I hope I'm right too. And we went, we went forward. I do agree with Gino, though. I think people probably, I, I think there's, you know, disagreeing commit can sometimes, for people that aren't practicing, it can sometimes look at like, I'll agree with you in the room and then I'm going to. About you outside the room. And that is not what we're talking about. We're talking about. I think you're wrong. But, uh, if you've heard me and I feel like you've heard me and you've made a decision and then I, I am going to do everything in

Speaker B: my power to make everything to make it right.

Speaker C: Now, if I don't think you've heard me and I think you've just told me what you want, then that's not disagreeing commit. You're just saying, I don't give a shit about your opinion. In which case, like, why, like, why am I still in the room, guys?

Speaker A: Exactly. That's what I always tell people. What it looks like for me is I am now going to move heaven and earth to make it work.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.

Speaker A: Because I'm on our side.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm completely committed. Yeah. It's probably worse than you being right. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker A: So, yeah, so that's okay with me. Like. But I, Yeah, I, I fundamentally, I mean, I, I took a team. Uh, when I first moved to Sweden, I had a team that we sat in a room, we talked about a problem. Everybody, lots of head nods. Very, very love, I love you, Sweden, but very Swedish fashion. Lots of head nods. Everybody left the room. I mean, they did not even get out the door before they started bitching about the decision.

Speaker C: No.

Speaker A: And I walked out and I said, everybody back in the room.

Speaker C: And they all.

Speaker A: And so they all come back and sit down. I was like, nope. You got something to say, say it. Yeah, this is where you get to say it. Let me teach you what this looks like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. I was like, you can say anything you want to me in this room. Uh, it's fine. You're not going to hurt my feelings. Say, this is a stupid idea. Say whatever you need to say, but if you walk out there, we're on a team together.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I promise I will do the same thing for you. Right. And I think that is, for me, that is always what I'm looking for is, are we gonna do this together?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: I hope your listeners really take that part to heart, Leah. Whoever. Whoever's listening, gonna listen to this podcast. Um, I think people really struggle with that. I think they feel that, like, oh, uh, I know the team is now. They're not. They're not fully bought in or talking bad about this. They're poisoning the well, if you will. They're out there and they don't address it. They just kind of let it go. But like, that. You got to look people in the eye, man, and say, no, no, no, no, no. Like, we are decisions made. We're committed. I need for you to do everything you can to make this successful. And back channeling a bunch of negative talk is not making it successful. It's not everything you can do to make it successful.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the decision Marilyn's talking about, like, I remember thinking, man, this one's heavy. And if we go this way, I'm gonna do a bunch of work that I'll have to unwind if she's wrong. Right. But at the end of the day, she was the decision maker.

Speaker B: Yep. And you gotta.

Speaker A: I told her what I was concerned about. She's like, I think this is the right thing to do. And I was like, then let's go. Let's go.

Speaker C: I love how you make it sound simple. There was so much work that went into, like, both sides of that. Right? Uh, yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: But to that. That, like, you know, the. The. The point you made earlier about, um, the amount of rigor around decisions. It wasn't an opinion. We had data on all the sides.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. We had. Everybody had information, and now we had to decide who's. Whose information was going to win and whose decision was it.

Speaker C: Because it wasn't easy.

Speaker A: Right, Right. And I don't have. I've never. That. That to me is like, okay, let's go.

Speaker C: But the day that product launched, the day I sat in that coffee shop and watched the first transaction go all the way through, and I was on the phone and, like, watching everything with you guys, I cried. I cried. I Cried over, like, a two dollar coffee or whatever it was.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I know. For sure.

Speaker C: For sure.

Speaker A: I mean, I cried. I cried in Gino's office a lot that year.

Speaker B: And I was just sitting there, like, trying again.

Speaker C: And it wasn't kept. It wasn't because I kept decorating your cubicle.

Speaker A: Juno had to come pull all my decorations down because he was the tallest person. Could you get that thing off the ceiling that Marilyn put up there? Because I can't get it.

Speaker C: I just wanted you to know that I love you. You do that with glitter.

Speaker A: Exactly. But, you know, sometimes. We've mentioned. A couple times, we've mentioned that Marilyn and I got off to a rocky start and that you were like, it's time to figure this shit out to the two of us.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so I would love to hear your perspective on the rocky start, because we've shared the perspective on the rocky start with our listeners before.

Speaker B: Um, I didn't understand. It was confusing to me because it was very clear to me that you two were the best product managers we had and were very passionate about the things. And neither of you are unreasonable, meaning both of you are extremely reasonable and everything. So I was. The confusion was, why are they at odds? Like, that's just kind of weird. So, um, for my part, I didn't try to, like, really get involved too heavily, but I tried to listen to both sides and just. Just make sure that you were both heard on both sides. And you. You guys did that. You didn't need my help for that, but I just kept an eye out for, like, is there something that could. And I do remember a day. There was a pretty bad day, uh, that I remember anyway, where both of you were crying. Um, and. Oh, that was. Yeah, that was just. It was. Again, it was just kind of confusing. And I m. Was. I was a little upset with both of you. I didn't express that to you, but I'm like, damn. They, like, man, they're not being good people if they're both. Yeah. Like, so. But then you all came back and like you said, you just committed to getting on this train. And I think that was, uh. And we all did our best to make all that work, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well. And part of the reason I wanted you to say some of that is like. Like, conflict is real.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And one of the things I don't pretend is that I don't bring my whole person to the company into the job. I don't leave anything at the. At home. Like, I am a whole person who Comes to the office and how I feel comes with me. And if there's conflict, it's there. And I am not a good bullshitter. Like, uh, we were joking about my poker face, but I'm not. And when I'm on, when I'm unhappy or something doesn't feel right or the relationship feels off, uh, sometimes what you need is someone that's steady and honorable and honest, who will stand in the middle of it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And not get involved overly not take a side, but say you're both great.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Work it out.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You listen to each other. Right. And I think. I think we've probably each been that at different points in times in our careers where we've been that person. And I really want young product people to hear me say, like, don't stick with the conflict. Talk it out. But find. Find someone.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Find somebody who can facilitate it. There's no. There's no crime in saying we need a. Ah, we need somebody.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Help us. Help us with this.

Speaker A: Help us. Right.

Speaker C: I think about what I would have missed out on if we would have not moved past that conflict. Because you, like, you are. You are my person. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: You've done so much for me over the years. We don't even live in the same country.

Speaker A: We live up M. Maryland was kind of in the middle between us, like right now.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Seven hours for me, seven hours for you.

Speaker C: Right? Yeah. I mean, it's a work past the conflict because, uh, I think there's real value in. In a lot of these relationships. And, uh, you know, I think we. We've all said it. I've heard it. People build software. And if people aren't functioning with each other in the right way, if they're not committed to the same goal, if they're not committed to working things out, software is not going to get built.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: No, not the best way it can be.

Speaker A: Best way. Yeah.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: All right, you ready to lightning round? Do you have any more questions for Gino?

Speaker C: No, I'm good. Let's lightning round.

Speaker B: All right.

Speaker C: Is Gino ready for lightning round?

Speaker A: Are you ready for the lightning round?

Speaker B: I got my notes.

Speaker A: All right, Dino, what's the most important thing you've learned in sports? That you applied in business? Yeah.

Speaker B: So, um, I guess that was part of my introduction that I didn't give. But I also. I coach in sports.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: I have for, um, close to two decades now. Absolutely love it. Very involved in that way. Um, and one of the things that I've adopted in explaining to the kids That I coach. Look, there's three reasons why I show up to practice every day, and there's three reasons why I asked them to come to practice every day. Reason number one, and I have them repeat this out loud. So reason number one is to have fun, right? If you can't have fun doing it, it's not worth doing. Don't do it.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Right. There are times when it's not going to be so fun, but ultimately is it helping you to get to the point where you can't have fun? So we need to have fun. Reason number two is to learn to play the game the right way. So it's a complete waste of time if you show up to a basketball practice and don't take the drill seriously because you're not learning to do the thing the right way. It's a waste of time if you show up to the track and you're not working on the technical aspects of running because you're not learning to do it the right way.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I think that applies in a corporate context too. You, you will be thrown into situations where you don't know all the stuff, but invest in yourself. Learn right. Talk to the people, learn from the people around you. Read, do whatever you need to do, but learn to do the thing to right way. Don't just, don't just go through the motions. Like, that's, that's not, that's not very good. Um, and number three, I have them say, make myself better every day, right? And it's kind of 1% better. Everyday thing. You get better, a lot better over time. It's kind of that notion. But like, look, man, we're all trying to get better at this thing. Um, when you come to work, try to get better. Try to do something better for the customers, for the business, for your team or something. Don't just come and take up space. Like, be active in making yourself better that day and making your teammates better that day.

Speaker A: Participate. Yeah, I love that. Okay. What was your favorite course in school? What did you enjoy the most?

Speaker C: What did you.

Speaker A: Yeah, what was your favorite?

Speaker B: Probably multivariable calculus or differential equations.

Speaker A: Uh. What a weirdo.

Speaker C: I really enjoyed Tai chi. That was

Speaker A: Marilyn, Same question.

Speaker C: I really enjoyed tai chi and I also took bowling. It was fun. Did you know I always failed bowling?

Speaker B: You just didn't go to class then, I guess. Yeah, you just didn't go. That's the only way you can fail bowling. Well, that's my honest answer. But I, um, I really, I like the theoretical side of things and that's why. That's kind of why I'm asking these questions. Why? And I like to think about these theoretical things. Um, the more practical side was like, yeah, I don't actually. And I don't love to write code. I like to think about how code can be written to effectuate an outcome.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Like. So, anyway, those classes, all math. Sweet. Let's do more math.

Speaker C: What about you, Leah?

Speaker A: Um, so I really. This is going to sound strange, but I really loved tax accounting. Cause I was an accounting major, and I hated intermediary accounting. I hated anything that was tied to, like, manufacturing. All I was like, I didn't like audit. I didn't like any of that stuff. I was an accounting major who hated all that stuff. But I loved the art of doing a tax return. I loved that it was like a start and you did a thing and you needed to go get information and then you were done.

Speaker B: Like, I do remember. That does not surprise me. I do remember being at Amazon and we had to, like, some.

Speaker A: Some.

Speaker B: We had to understand that, um, I guess the business transaction side or, uh, the financial transaction side of some of the stuff we were building, and we're in some meeting and Leah started talking about T accounts. I'm like, yes.

Speaker C: Ah, she used to draw those on the whiteboard.

Speaker B: Yeah. And she. She's the one that taught me, or at least introduced me to like, no, there's debits and credits and this. This credit. You gotta debit this one. And she drew I'm like a T account. What the hell is that? Yeah, like, you're the sales product manager. What do you know about T accounts?

Speaker C: I just remember my relationship with the accounting people getting so much better once Leah walked in the room.

Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. We could have the real conversations then once you got involved, I was like, what?

Speaker C: Whoa.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I was m. My. One of my funniest things at Amazon was that I used to go to all of the treasury meetings to talk about ach, even when it had nothing to do with my product. Because I was the only person in the company who understood it. There were 45,000 employees at Amazon at the time. And I was the only. Dennis was like, they'll go. And I'm all, to what? Like, well, Fargo's here. Somebody's got to go talk to him. And I'm like, okay, now if I go with treasury to just have a ach conversation, because I was the only one that understood it. I'm like, okay, but. All right, last question. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given.

Speaker B: I would say keep it simple. Seriously. And one of my first, um, jobs, even at mit, they used to say it. But at Microsoft, when I got the Microsoft, there's a. Especially for young, uh, engineers, young product managers, young TPMs. You want to impress the people. You want to show that you're smart. You want to show that you know that you're capable. But when you try too hard sometimes, like, use vocabulary you don't need to use. You don't even know how to use it. Right. Or you try to employ concepts that you yourself haven't even developed, you know, because you heard about it somewhere. Like, people see right through that. Just keep it simple.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Keep it simple and everything else. And make it, um, only add, uh, complexity when you need to add complexity.

Speaker A: Yeah. Love that. Well, I can tie mine. I can tie mine to that. And the guy who said it is, is you. Um, I give this advice. I make money on this advice, everybody.

Speaker C: So thank you.

Speaker A: I'm eating this piece of advice because when I started at Amazon Week 2, Gino wandered over to my desk. I sat way over by myself on the other side of the room because there was no desk for me. And he wanders over to my desk, and he said, hey, can I. Can I offer you a piece of advice? And I was like, sure. And he said, don't raise your hand. And I was like, what? He's like, I can see it. I can see that you really want to make yourself valuable. You really want to take something on. You really want to show that you belong here. Don't raise your hand. And I was like, okay. And he said, when you can get a win, raise your hand. I tell every new product manager that, like, don't raise your hand just because you're trying to prove yourself. We hired you for a reason.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: You do not need to raise your hand to prove anything. Keep your hand down until you can get a win.

Speaker B: Until you know.

Speaker A: And raise your hand when you're like, that's me. I got that one right? And it was one of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given. Every job I've gone into, I've been like, oh, I want to raise my hand.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's like, no, keep your hands in your pockets, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. Just, like, sit on them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: For a little bit.

Speaker A: Yeah. But that's the simplest thing to do. Rather than trying to prove that I know something, just be like, be simple, be calm.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Raise your hand when you know how to help.

Speaker C: Be simple, be calm, and don't raise your hand. I feel like those are like that. That goes against the core of my.

Speaker B: Everything's like, I'm raising my hand. I'm going to raise it super excitedly,

Speaker A: both hands.

Speaker C: There's going to be. There's going to be unicorn horns. It's going to be chaos. It's going to be fun.

Speaker A: Oh, sorry.

Speaker B: I'll say just one thing about that. Like, I'm trying to figure out why I chose that as the lesson. I will say one of the. I think the thing that predated a precursor to that was confidence instilled in me by my mother. Right. Honestly, who. Which is. This is probably the best advice. Which is your best is all that you really need to pursue. Right. Like, you don't have to. You're not competing. I've been in very competitive environments.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: From college to corporate, uh, careers and stuff like that. And I do pretty well. But it's a, uh, large part because I really don't. I'm not. I'm not really competing with any of them. I just compete kind of with myself. My best is going to be good enough and better than most people's best. Like, I firmly believe that. So I don't have to over. I don't have to over complicate it. I don't feel like I have to impress people. And that comes from my mom. Like, you're fine. You just do you everything else. So I can keep it simple and be confident that it's going to work for me.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Where that may not be as easy for some.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So maybe the advice is, you're good. Your. Your best is good enough. Just do your best. You're fine.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I don't know. I like the simplicity. I'm not like, I'm gonna. I'm putting simplicity back on the table because I think if you can explain complex things in simple fashion, um, then you actually understand it. And when you complexify and use all the big words. Um, but I do. So I'm. I'm just gonna pull on two things that you guys have both brought up in the course of this conversation. The first is this should be fun.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: You shouldn't. You shouldn't go into work and feel like it's killing your soul. Um, you shouldn't be working on a problem that you don't personally enjoy. Um, and I think there's a lot to be said to be how, like having joy at work. And you have both brought an immense amount of joy. To my life. And the second, um, is like, you are hired for a reason. Like, don't overcomplicate it. Don't try to be someone you're not. Have an opinion in a reason room.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: I mean, like, feel free to say, like, I have a dumb question. And I know, like, you know, you're not supposed to say that as a girl, and you're not supposed, like, use whatever crutch you want but speak up in a meeting. Right?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Hey. Hey. What? Have we thought about this or have we. Like, don't just bring up a question to have a question, but don't sit there and keep your mouth shut because you think, yeah, you're dumber than everybody else. You're not.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: You. You, like, you got there. Yeah. Do something with it.

Speaker A: Have.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Have some. Trust your instincts and say, oh, maybe if I have this question, maybe someone else doesn't understand. Because that's usually true.

Speaker C: Yeah. And also, I think that that point of authenticity that you just made, Gino, is really true. I will tell you that. You, um, know, for a long time, uh, you know, people will say, well, you got to act a certain way or look a certain way or behave a certain way to be successful. And I feel like as soon as I let some of that go. And I think your post the other day on LinkedIn, Leah, was very poignant about embracing who you are, like, with. As soon as you. You are your authentic self and you're. You're not constantly trying to police yourself in the moment to be someone else, all of that creative energy gets to go somewhere else.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And you can channel it towards, you know, honing your craft and, uh, getting a better product out the door. You know, all of those things become easier because you're not spending part of your soul trying to be someone that you're just not.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Can I just. Can I just add that that's. That's what they want?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: They want.

Speaker B: I want you to be somebody else.

Speaker A: They want us to be someone else. They want us to play small. They want us to line up and be them. And I'm sorry I don't have a blue polo shirt and a Patagonia vest, and I'm not going to do it.

Speaker C: No.

Speaker A: And the people I trust the most, the people I admire the most, the people who I get, uh, can get the most work done with, like, you guys are themselves.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Always.

Speaker A: And I don't need. I mean, listen, if it's. If it's the three of us against three mediocre white men all day long.

Speaker C: I'll take that all day long.

Speaker A: Um, I'll take that bed all day long. Right. And so I 100 agree with you on that. Very cool. This was fun. I knew it would be.

Speaker B: This was fun.

Speaker A: Thanks, Gina, for coming to us.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me. Sorry it took so long.

Speaker A: Shoot.

Speaker B: The next one shouldn't take so long.

Speaker A: Now I'm like, now come back.

Speaker B: I know how to do this podcast thing.

Speaker A: We still probably have to have another conversation about something

Speaker B: awesome.

Speaker A: Uh, all right, everybody.

Speaker B: This is awesome. I'm proud of you guys. We were in a bar talking about this, and this is a thing.

Speaker A: We have a whole thing. Season two is happening right now.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: Awesome. Well, if you're watching this and you have questions, suggestions, ideas about what you want us to talk about, please send them over. Um, follow Gino on LinkedIn and see what he's up to, and, uh, we will see you next time.