Practical Product Management · 2024-07-17 · 24 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
32 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Psychological safety - the belief that team members can take interpersonal risks without fear of humiliation or punishment - is the foundation for effective product management and high-performing teams. Drawing on Amy Edmondson's research and Google's Project Aristotle study (which identified psychological safety as the #1 factor across 180 teams and 250 attributes), hosts Leah and Marilyn explore how product managers create environments where engineers, designers, and stakeholders freely voice concerns, disagree, and contribute ideas. The conversation covers concrete practices: establishing a clear strategic vision teams can align behind, practicing radical transparency with stakeholders and direct reports, embodying "disagree and commit" genuinely rather than performatively, and bringing your whole self to leadership - including vulnerability and humility. Product managers skeptical of whether this matters, leaders struggling with team velocity or morale, and engineering teams frustrated with past product leadership will find this episode directly addresses why command-and-control or fear-based approaches kill innovation and psychological safety creates the conditions for better product decisions and faster execution.
Google's two-year study of 180 teams and 250 attributes found psychological safety was the #1 factor for team effectiveness, followed by dependability, structure and clarity, meaning, and impact. Psychological safety - where team members feel safe to take risks and be vulnerable - topped the list as essential for delivery and productivity.
Product managers should practice "disagree and commit" - openly state your disagreement, explain why you think it's a mistake, share potential consequences, but then fully commit to executing the decision and moving heaven and earth to make it work. This preserves psychological safety because the team knows you're not sabotaging them behind the scenes.
Psychological safety erodes when leaders create fear-based cultures, tolerate assholes, punish mistakes, show different versions of themselves to different audiences, or demonstrate that they're the only person whose opinion matters. It's also degraded by tracking team velocity punitively, unexpected layoffs without context, or sudden strategic shifts without explanation.
When product managers consistently tell the truth to their team, management, and stakeholders - and the team knows the message is the same in every room - team members can trust and believe in the leader. If teams suspect you'll say one thing behind closed doors and another in public, psychological safety collapses.
Showing up as your authentic self - including vulnerability, being willing to cry, sharing personal context, and acknowledging your own challenges - gives team members permission to do the same. It builds connection and trust faster than trying to maintain a polished professional persona, and it makes teams more committed to shared goals.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode leans heavily on well-worn platitudes (don't lead by fear, bring your whole self, listening matters) with very few non-obvious claims; the only substantive nugget is a secondhand summary of Project Aristotle.
the number one thing is psychological safety
you have to say it seven times before people hear it
Almost entirely recycled frameworks - Amy Edmondson, Project Aristotle, 'disagree and commit' - that circulate constantly in management content, with no contrarian or first-principles angle.
most of it I learned, I would say from Amy Edmondson
I 100% believe in disagree and commit
Two co-hosts who appear to be experienced product leaders speaking from real experience, but no named companies, scale, or credentials are established to verify they've done the thing at scale.
I always tell my product managers
when I was leading teams, I would say disagree and commit
A few concrete data points from the Google study (250 elements, 180 teams, 2012) but the rest is anecdotal and abstract with no named companies, metrics, or dollar figures.
they did a two year study, 250 elements and 180 teams
the year was 2012
A mutually agreeable chat between friends with no genuine pushback or probing follow-ups; questions serve to prompt agreement rather than challenge claims.
I think that's an awesome topic
Yeah, that's exactly where we should start
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this episode, Leah and Marilyn discuss the importance of psychological safety in product management. They define psychological safety as creating an environment where team members feel safe to take risks, be vulnerable, and share their opinions without fear of humiliation or criticism. They reference a study done at Google, which found that psychological safety and trust were the top factors that contributed to team productivity and effectiveness. The hosts emphasize the need for open and honest communication, a common vision, and the ability to bring one's whole self to work. Takeaways Psychological safety is crucial in product management as it allows team members to take risks, be vulnerable, and share their opinions without fear of humiliation or criticism. A common vision and open communication are essential in creating psychological safety within a team. Leaders should foster an environment of honesty, respect, and kindness to build trust and psychological safety. Bringing one's whole self to work and allowing team members to do the same contributes to psychological safety. Let us know your thoughts on our website at PracticalPMPodcast.com
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Hi everyone. Welcome to the podcast, Practical Product Management. Um, me and Marilyn hanging out, we're going to talk about the practical side of product management today. So I think what we thought would be a good topic for today is psychological safety and product management. How those two things come together. What do you think, Marilyn?
Speaker B: I think that's an awesome topic.
Speaker A: So why don't we start by talking about what it is? Is that a good place to start?
Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly where we should start.
Speaker A: Okay, so what I know about psychological safety, um, most of it I learned, I would say from Amy Edmondson, the Harvard professor who wrote, um, books. Writes books on those kinds of topics, leadership topics. And one of them is called Fearless Organization. And she talks a lot about the concept of psychological safety being, you know, within the construct of a team environment. As a leader, you want teams that feel like they're is never a chance that they're going to be humiliated or overtly criticized for sharing their opinion, saying they made a mistake, um, or you know, just saying like, hey, I disagree, like that there shouldn't be humiliation and fear tied to having a point of view. Right. Um, and she talks a lot in the book about Project Aristotle, which was done at Google. Um, like they did a two year study, 250 elements and 180 teams. And what they came back with, what they were trying to figure out is like, what would make our teams at Google more productive and effective and how could we get more delivery out of them. And what they found was the number one thing that those 180 teams, 250 elements found over two years was they needed psychological safety and trust was the thing that would help them be kick ass at delivery. Which is interesting.
Speaker B: Right? Yes. Um, so like, note for everybody listening, um, because every place I've worked, people are like, how do we get more out of our teams? And they're like, you know, they do things like let's track velocity, which, so FYI, don't ever do that. It doesn't work. Um, you're about to kill your teams. Please stop. Um, so the number one thing, Leah, just to reiterate what you just said, the number one thing is psychological safety.
Speaker A: I'll tell you what the five things are really quickly I'm going to read them from a list, so I'm going to look away. But number one was psychological safety. Um, team members feel safe to take risks and be vulnerable in front of each other. Number two was dependability. Team members get things done on time and meet Google's high bar for Excellence. Number three is structure and clarity. Team members have clear roles, plans and goals. Number four was, meaning work is personally important to team members. And number five was impact. Team members think their work matters and creates change. And again, this was. 250 attributes were studied across two years. 180 teams and the year was 2012. So it's been a little while. Um, but ultimately psychological safety and trust were the top of what needed, what you needed for. To create things, make things happen, to
Speaker B: build software or to make teams. I guess it doesn't really matter what you're doing. I just, you know, um, so that really tracks for me. I will tell you when my teams have performed the worst is when there's politics, um, when there's backstabbing, when they don't. When they feel like they have to protect themselves from their peers and the people around them or they're like, you know, their, their constituents or their stakeholders. Like, personally, I feel the same way, like, it's really disempowering, um, to feel like you have to protect yourself from the people that you're supposed to be like, working with to achieve, to achieve a common goal. Like, companies don't typically, um, set their teams up to fight each other, except for maybe Microsoft, based on that one org chart meme that goes around.
Speaker A: Right. And I got, uh, the question I would have there is like, I don't think we in most of companies don't intentionally set things up for that, that purpose, but sometimes there can be sort of an undercurrent of competition or acceptable bad behavior or just things that, that quite frankly just degrade the safety. Right. So maybe you start out safe and you intend safe and then you start to sort of chip away at safe. Right.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And you lean, I think from my perspective, like when you lean away from feeling safe, you lean towards fear.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Right. And I don't know about you, but I don't think fear is the best motivator for innovation.
Speaker B: I don't think it's like, I don't think it's the best motivator ever for anything.
Speaker A: Right, right.
Speaker B: You know, if you, if you, if you don't, I'm gonna tell dad.
Speaker A: Uh, right. That doesn't, doesn't work as a kid. It's not great as an adult. Yeah, yeah, no, I totally. I mean, I think there isn't. There is. It's such a responsibility of leaders in general to say, oh, uh, we can hear any, anybody can have an opinion. It doesn't matter if your opinion differs from mine. But I think when it comes to product managers, man, you. It goes back to what we talked about in a past episode. Like, if you come rolling in with, like, I'm right, this is how we're doing everything. There is no alternative view. You'll crush the safety in your team, don't you think?
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that, uh, you know, um, also, you know, you have a lot of blind spots when you roll in like that. Um, and, and what happens is, um, you're going to build a shitty product.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Because you do not have. I always tell. I always tell my product managers, like, listen, everybody in the team, everybody you can get your hands on, is your board of directors, not the CEO, but now you have a big board of directors. Yeah. You're gonna, you're gonna actually sort of like, guide where the ship goes. Um, but if you don't have people being like, well, hey, there's a rock over here. I've seen this. Um, or your idea is great, but it could use some tweaking. Like, you're missing out on a whole host of information. Um, and you're gonna have terrible product market fit.
Speaker A: Yeah. Because you, I mean, it's, it's very natural and I think easy for us when we are product people, especially to be like, I have a position, I have a perspective, and this is where we're headed. Right. But in the minute you shut the voices out and say, this is it, you start, you miss the opportunity for other perspectives to come in and make you go, oh, yeah, okay, I might have, I might have missed that. Yeah, that, that perspective is missing. Right. Because we all, we all just. It's narrow. No matter how wide you try to be in terms of coming to a problem, we all have. You're bringing your views. These are the eyes I look through.
Speaker B: Exactly. Right. I mean, we're human, so we're inherently biased.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So let's, let's think back about some of the best teams we've been a part of, and we're going to talk about this in terms of product management and leadership. How do you, like, how do you lead a. Or how do you lead and foster a safe culture? What do you think? Um, you know, now that we've established that it's going to make you better as a team, you're going to build better products, you're going to go faster, you're going to be more efficient. What is the foundation for psychological safety, in your opinion?
Speaker A: I mean, I think you really have to be able to have no holds barred open conversation Right. And. And I mean, that's. That's my first thought to that. Like, I just think there's this, um, this need to be able to be vulnerable.
Speaker B: Yep.
Speaker A: Right. And say, I'm going to take a risk and say this thing that maybe everyone else will be like, what, are you crazy? I mean, the number of times in my life and career I've heard, what are you crazy? Is significant. So either it was said or it was like a look. I mean, you know, that happens. Um, and. And even if you risk getting your feelings hurt, being willing to say, I need to say this.
Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think I. I 100% agree. And I think that takes, um, it takes a little bit of mutual respect. Um, I. I think that you. You said it, um, you said it really well. There's a common vision. We all know what. We all know what we're going after. We all understand that every player is necessary on the field to reach our goal. So we all have this common mission and vision. Um, we're all necessary, and we all understand our roles in this game. Uh, and we respect the people we're on the field with. And sometimes that means you get to know people on a personal level, or at least you sort of like, you know, vulnerability is hard when you first meet someone. Um, and so how do you, like, lower the barriers enough so that you can have vulnerability? M. I also think that just from a. Like, some. Some challenges. I'm curious. I'm going to watch your face when I say this because, um, some. Sometimes, uh, the tone needs to be set from the top down. Like, there is an expectation that we're going to be open, honest, vulnerable. We're not going to be punitive. We're not going to lead by fear. We're not going to, like, knee. Knee jerk into things. Um, we don't tolerate assholes.
Speaker A: Right. Right. 100%. Like, I. I think the. One of the things that has always gotten me in trouble is that I 100% believe in disagree and commit.
Speaker B: Yep.
Speaker A: And other people say they believe in disagree and commit. I mean, I actually believe and disagree and commit.
Speaker B: They believe and disagree, just not the commit part.
Speaker A: Right. Or they. Or if they're the, you know, if they're the final decision maker, maybe they're the founder, maybe they're whatever. Right. They are like, no, no, I believe in agree and commit, and they can't quite get over the fact that you disagree with them. Right. Yeah. Uh, because I'm the kind of person that's like, listen, I disagree, but if that's what you want to do. Let's do it. Like, no, but I want you to agree. Well, I'm not going to.
Speaker B: Then that's where we're going.
Speaker A: It's not going to happen. I don't agree. I think it's a mistake. But I've said what, uh, I've said, and now I'm ready to move on. Right. And I used to tell my teams, like, when I was leading teams, I would say disagree and commit. Looks like I have had my say. I have spoken. I have told you why I disagree. I've said what I think the consequences of that are, and now we're deciding. And I will now move heaven and earth to make it work.
Speaker B: So I love this because I have 100% experience this with you. I remember times when, like, we just flat out disagreed, and you told me probably exactly those words.
Speaker A: You're wrong. Right.
Speaker B: I was like, cool. At the end, you're either gonna. You're either gonna laugh in my face or you're gonna be like, huh, look at that. That worked exactly right.
Speaker A: And. And I always. I really do that. Well, the other person feels you behind them, holding their back. Right.
Speaker B: I never once felt like after that, after that conversation with you, that you were, you were gonna take me down.
Speaker A: I'm gonna sabotage you.
Speaker B: I mean, you were. You were literally trying to help us get to a common goal. Um, absolutely. I mean, if I remember. If I remember right, somewhere in the middle of that thing, um, we ended up both being right, which is weird.
Speaker A: Yeah. Um, it happens, right?
Speaker B: Yeah. But I think. I think just because, you know, we were able to have the open conversations, there was a psychological safety. Um, we were able to be completely open and honest with each other. And, uh, you know, um, as you move through a problem space, it gets complex, things change. All right, let's talk about. Let's talk about, uh, what else have you seen is necessary?
Speaker A: So I think going back to one thing you said, like, I. I don't think we can overstate the importance of a strategic vision. Yeah, not just a vision. Not just, uh, oh, this is what we want to be. Like, all the startups in the world can say we want to be a global company that does this thing and we want to launch in that. I don't care. Congrats. Good for you. It's a good idea.
Speaker B: We're going to double revenue. Yeah.
Speaker A: Awesome. Um, where. How. What are you going to do? When are you going to do it? What's it going to look like? What's it going To. So for me, the strategic part of that is important. Like where is, where are we today? What do, what do we intend to do? What are we trying to do and what are we gonna do to get there? What are the milestones, the activities, the things. Right. And then moving into the tactics. Right. But the strategic vision has to be there and everybody has to get on board.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And then.
Speaker A: And then everybody has to start singing the same. From the same hymnal as they would say. Right. Like we're all singing the same song. And. And it has to start, like, you have to start really chugging away at that vision. And you know, the rule is you have to say it seven times before people hear it. So you need to say it seven times and maybe 12. Right. Depending on where you're. Where you're at. But that is key because the minute someone else in the team, as a product manager, I know, like, uh, the team needed to know where I, where we were going, where I thought we were going, that we had to be on the same page. We. That's where we're going. Yes. We all agree, Right. If, ah, the minute that there was somebody on the team that was like, I don't want to go there, or I think that's the wrong place to go after we'd agreed. Now we have to come back and negotiate again.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Uh, or at least be like, no, no, no, get on board. This is what we're doing. Right. Because that person or people can start to degrade progress. Yeah. So it's a constant repetitive action. Right?
Speaker B: Yeah. So let's talk about then. Let's bring these back to product management. Um, what do you think that psychological safety looks like, um, in product management? And why is it important in our sort of role at all? I feel like I'm interviewing you today.
Speaker A: I know, I'm m. Like, this is fun. Usually it's me doing the other way around. It's kind of fun. I'm gonna start. I'm gonna turn this around on you eventually. I'm gonna slide a question in.
Speaker B: Coming. Coming.
Speaker A: No, I think, I think what's. I think what comes to mind when you ask that question is a real commitment to honesty and to walking the talk to the stakeholders, to your management team and to your team. Team. And this ability to not have a different story in any place. And I think if the team begins to believe that you will tell the truth radically, no matter what, they will start to believe you. And when they start to believe you, they will start to trust you.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I Think that for me has always been really essential that I would say, listen, I'm gonna go take a bullet for this team. I better understand what we're doing.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Or whatever, you know, like, uh, I will absolutely stand in front of whatever's coming for this whole team, but I need to understand why, how we got here. Right. So that truth telling in every direction, the team, it's like the old adage, like, if they'll do it to you, they'll do it with you. If they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you. Right?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And that's how I feel with my team. I'm going to tell you the truth. Always.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And that, uh, and you can trust that when I walk out the door and go talk to our boss, I'm going to tell him the truth too. Or her. The truth.
Speaker B: Yeah. Same message. They're not worried you're going to say something else when the door shuts?
Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.
Speaker B: Uh, I think the one thing, I tend to be very transparent, uh, with my teams, I will tell them almost everything. And when I can't tell them something, I tell them I can't tell them something. Um, because I believe humans need context. And they'll. If they're brought into the mission and the vision, they're here for the team. We have a good working environment. They will make magical things happen.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Um, but they need context. What you cannot do is tell people that, like, revenue is great and then lay people off with no context.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Um, you can't tell them, you know, Europe is the only focus and then two weeks later say, Europe's not a focus. They need to understand the why and they'll follow you anywhere.
Speaker A: Totally. I'm curious what the, what you think the role is of, like, the personal side as a product manager. Like, what. Where does, where does being a human come into play?
Speaker B: Yeah. Geez. I mean, for so long I thought that I needed to be like a grown up or a professional. Um, and I felt like you had to, like, put on a Persona and like, be super polished and fabulous. And I'll tell you, that version of me is not as successful as the version of me that brings a lot of myself to work. Um, I have cried in the office. I'm not like, I'm still horrified by it, but, like, it is really what, you know, my lived experience. Um, I talk about my family. Um, I have people that have, like, chosen to work for me in the past that have become great friends. Um, but it is still at the end of the day, like, we both have a role to play in the company. Uh, and sometimes I'm going to need to kick your ass, but not because I'm a jackass, but because your success is our success. Right. And if I let you fail, if I've hired you into a team and put you in a role and I let you fail, then I'm also failing. Um, and sometimes we have that conversation. Right. I mean, you, uh, know, you unfortunately get in the position where you have to let someone go for one reason or another. It's not the right fit for the team. And you do it with enough humility and empathy to know that, you know, it's not punitive. Uh, it is something that can happen to me. Um, yeah. Ah, I'm. I, like, I'm. I bring all of this. I bring all of this to work.
Speaker A: Um, no, And I think having. Having worked with you, I know that. Right. And it's actually. I think it was a big influence for me to be like, I could actually just not try to be something I'm not. I could just show up and be me. Right. And I think there's an element of. As a leader, as a product manager, for sure. And then definitely as a leader where I really wanted to be a product manager on a team, where the team could bring their whole person to the conversation.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And if you were struggling in some area, then. You know what? We'll cover that. You.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: You need some. Some space. So we're gonna. Let's slide. Oh, everybody slide over. We're taking that space. Right?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Including me. Right. Um, and I think that. That. That ability to be like, I'm gonna lead the whole person, even when I'm letting them go.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I'm gonna lead you. Right. I'm gonna have done everything I could do to make it work.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And.
Speaker A: But if it's not working, it's not working. And it's not good for you either.
Speaker B: But, um, people. I have found that people are never surprised.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: If you've been a good leader the whole time, usually the person on the other side is, like, you know, relieved to some extent. Yeah, totally.
Speaker A: And I think the same thing is true in a, um. In a product team. When things are going badly, the team's not really surprised when you show up and go, guys, what? This isn't going to.
Speaker B: What.
Speaker A: What the hell? What are you gonna do?
Speaker B: You're like, guys, let's come together. And I'm like, what the hell? Right?
Speaker A: No, totally. And I think there's an interesting Like, I think that person who shows up, the me, the you that shows up even when things are tough, that's what they expect because they've gotten to know me.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: When I get real quiet, when I get real quiet and real still, the team's like, oh, uh, it's not a good thing what's happening. Right?
Speaker B: Not a good thing.
Speaker A: What's happening? What's going on? We need to ask her what's going on, you know, so, so I think what we've said decided is that psychologically safety is essential. That it requires communication and vulnerability.
Speaker B: Yep.
Speaker A: That it requires us to be our, uh, bring our whole person.
Speaker B: The whole person.
Speaker A: Anything else that we decided it requires.
Speaker B: Well, and, and, uh, and. And from, uh, a product management perspective, that means listening and not being a jerk. And you're not the, you're not the, you know, the, the only person with an opinion that matters. And, and uh, you know, how do you bring humility and, ah. And respect and kindness to your peers, um, and everybody in your circle?
Speaker A: Yeah. And I think as. I mean my, My closing thought is like, is as a product manager, if you can't do that, do a different job.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go do something else. Because this job is just gonna hurt.
Speaker A: Right. It's gonna hurt you, it's gonna hurt them. And I mean, over the years, I don't know about you, uh, like, I know I'm sidelining a little bit, but over the years I have met engineering partners, engineering leaders who have a really bad taste in their mouth for product management. And when I've poked at it, they're like, I haven't worked for one that I felt good about. And I'm like, not good. What do you mean? Right. And then as we unpack it, I'm like, oh, yeah, you didn't. Right. Like, that's a. That was the wrong personality for that team you were on. Right. Or whatever. And so like I said, if that's not you, if you don't. If you're not interested in being the person who builds that, do something else. There's plenty of other opportunities. This is not yours. So.
Speaker B: Nope.
Speaker A: It takes a. It takes a certain kind of person.
Speaker B: It 100 does. Um, so, like, super interested to hear from everybody that listens to us about what you think about psychological safety. Um, what do you see that improves it? Do you agree with us? Do you disagree with us? What are we missing? Um, and what do you see that kills it? Like, start the conversation, my friends.
Speaker A: Absolutely. And I'll also dump the project Aristotle information into the resourcing. So under our episode banner on our website, there's a little resource space. And for each episode, when we share resources, you can find documents, images, things we've shared.
Speaker B: That's where all the magic lives, huh?
Speaker A: If you go there, get the document, read it, and then leave us comments about how psychological safety shows shows up for you. So yay. Till next time.
Speaker B: Bye bye.
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