Mental Health is A Branding Issue: Reframing Wellness As a Priority, Not a Perk

Speaker A: If the people who make our music, TV and culture are burning out in silence, what kind of culture are we really creating? We're going to talk about that today and more. Welcome to Mindful Management. I'm your host, Shenandoah Scheffalo. This is the show where we build healing, centered human workplaces. And today I am thrilled to introduce you all to Debbie Carroll, the CMA endowed Chair and Executive Director of the center for Mental Health and Entertainment at Belmont University's Mike Curb College of Entertainment and Music Business. It's a mouthful, but it's a worthy piece of work. Debbie is a licensed clinical social worker and a longtime leader at the intersection of mental health, music and social impact. Before coming to Belmont, she served as Vice President of Health and human services for MusiCares, the Recording Academy's charitable partner, where she helped grow support from a few hundred clients a year to thousands of music professionals receiving millions of dollars in assistance. Over more than two decades, she led musicare's response to crises like Hurricane Katrina, the Nashville floods, multiple hurricanes, and of course the COVID 19 pandemic, helping to steward emergency relief efforts that delivered critical aid to people in the music community. In 2022, Debbie joined on site as Vice President of Entertainment and Specialized services, launching a, uh, global entertainment division focused on emotional health solutions for creatives and public facing professionals. These are people who live under intense pressure but are often last in line for care. Now, through a major gift from the Country Music Association, Belmont has launched the center for Mental Health and Entertainment with Debbie as its inaugural leader. A first of its kind initiative to drive research, education and community resources that can change the culture of mental health and music, film, tv, sports and media. Across all of this work, Debbie has been recognized as a trusted voice on mental health and entertainment, honored for her leadership and impact, and we are thrilled to welcome her to our show today. Welcome to Mindful Management, a podcast by Chefalo Consulting where we share the knowledge, stories and resources you need to create a trauma informed culture that supports wellness, growth and resilience. I'm your host, Shenandoah Scheffalo. Debbie, welcome to Mindful Management.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here.

Speaker A: I am super excited to have you and to dive into all the things that you've been a part of and worked on. But before we get there, I love people's personal stories and I'm curious, what pulled you into mental health work and then specifically into caring for the people who are at the center of our entertainment and music?

Speaker B: Great question. What drew me into mental health work. I think if I'm honest, it was my own personal struggles and challenges as a teenager and a young adult. That's a time period in my life where thankfully at this stage in my game, I don't recognize that young woman, but I embrace her because also all that she went through enabled me to be who I am today and also help with the career trajectory that I embarked upon. So I received an undergraduate degree in psychology from the University of Colorado at Boulder, which I teasingly say that meant that I was virtually unemployable, so wasn't quite sure what I was going to do. Ah, yet I knew that human stories, including my own, intrigued me. And so I began working at a variety of different mental health facilities around the country. Had moved from Colorado to Rhode island to Atlanta and then to Nashville and decided to get a degree in social work. And so love that my undergraduate degree, I limped along and barely got out of undergraduate school, but then once I got to graduate school, got straight A's and really enjoyed the work and learning about something that I was really interested in. Moved to Nashville with two young children and got into private practice for a minute and quickly realized I enjoyed it. I didn't have many boundaries and didn't know really how to take care of myself in the midst of taking care of others, but was serving a lot of music people. And somebody told me about an opportunity at Music Cares and I thought what an interesting organization. Also is fascinating with the fact that the recording academy started something that took care of their own, but yet didn't want to travel and didn't want to work full time, but went to the interview and left thinking what an amazing opportunity to work for a, uh, charity which certainly filled my soul and to provide support to a community that gives so much to the world through their crafts and talents. So fortunately I was hired and spent the majority of my career there over 24 years.

Speaker A: And I got to imagine over 20 years at Ah, musicares, that you had to see things over and over again.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Some patterns, uh, approached and I'm wondering what convinced you in that process that maybe there was just a different approach needed to mental health work and especially for those in the entertainment industry.

Speaker B: I think when I embarked upon my career I was of the mindset that is very similar to a 12 step model at that point in time, which was that everybody should be treated equally. We all have the same struggles as humans and I certainly believe that somewhat yet there are certain industries that have occupational hazards that are unique and the Music industry falls into that category that there are stressors and a lack of benefits that many other entities have. And so just given that dynamic in and of itself, it creates some challenges. So I quickly learned through MusiCares primarily that the industry was a little unique and our programs and services should address the unique nature of entertainment versus trying to embark upon a one size fits all for everyone. I'll also say that mental health, as you and I both know, is not an exact science. And it's wish it was, but it's very individualized and very nuanced. And so we spent many years really focusing not only on crisis intervention, which is really what MusiCares was set up to do initially, uh, but on prevention. How do we support and take care of this industry in a way that I would boldly say towards the end of my time at MusiCares, where MusiCares is no longer needed, wouldn't that be a beautiful thing where the charities are not needed to support the industry because the industry is healthy and well and can take care of themselves?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's an interesting concept and it's one that I often talk about in any nonprofit that I go into. Isn't the whole point that you stop existing?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And sometimes in charity work we lose focus of that? Right. That. That we're like, oh, we gotta sustain ourselves, we gotta stay in business. And I'm like, wait, I thought our whole point of this charity was to go out of business at some point, but we do seem to lose that in the world.

Speaker B: I agree. Certainly there are m moments and certainly during my time at MusiCares and the other organizations, I've worked for a little bit different nuances there though, but that it was about more. How do we serve more, how do we expand and how do we grow, how do we scale? And yes, but also there is a finite number of individuals in certain cultures that charities support. And I agree wholeheartedly that my mindset shifted to how do we create and support this group of humans in a way that we are no longer needed or our assistance continues to scale backwards. Because people are paid a fair wage, they have the support that they need for medical conditions or otherwise. They have access to mental health or addiction treatment. So that I think is a continual uphill battle.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think for probably some of our listeners, like, they may be thinking about the superstar who's making millions of dollars. And they may be thinking, what is Debbie talking about? These people have access to probably better care than most of the people here. But what I think people forget often about the entertainment Industry and a lot of industries is the people at the top are really small percentage and all the workers that make that concert go off, that make that film happen, that make right, that TV show land work a lot of jobs that are underpaid, that aren't necessarily livable wages and are under extreme pressure and demands quite often that's so true.

Speaker B: I heard many times throughout my career, why on earth would there be a charity that needed to support, support the industry? And yet this is an old stat, so I'd imagine these numbers have gone up significantly. But the average musician makes $35,000 a year through their music work. And so that's not a living wage. Yet again, music, we grieve to music, we celebrate to music. And all of entertainment provides so much joy to the world. So therefore, how do we create systems or change systems that then allow people to make the money that they need to make to continue to work in that profession?

Speaker A: Yeah, I also thinking about when I was writing your bio, Debbie, it hadn't occurred to me about things like Hurricane Katrina or how Covid might have impacted things. And you've led some of those really big responses during those natural disasters and shocks the pandemic. What did you experience about the strengths and vulnerabilities of the entertainment ecosystem?

Speaker B: Hurricane Katrina really put MusiCares on the map in a profound way. And what I learned during that time, and certainly saw through the pandemic as well, was the, uh, resiliency and the tenacity of music people. And not that others don't have that type, those qualities as well. But the industry really stands behind one another in times of need. It stands behind actually the world in times of need. So I typically found that when there was an issue, people were coming in droves to say, hey, how can I be supportive of this? What can I do to help? Katrina started with everything from local events that raised a few thousand dollars to Madison Square Garden events raised several million dollars. But people wanted to get in there and support this vulnerable population. Although, as you mentioned earlier, not everybody views music as a vulnerable population. They typically consider it to be wealthy and everybody's well taken care of, which the mega stars are. But those people that are the crew and the support, which is hundreds of people, they are very vulnerable. And so that warmed my heart significantly. I immediately felt at home with the creative community and I am not a creative, but that they really support humanity in a beautiful way.

Speaker A: Yeah. So what I'm hearing there is that some of the traits that make them brilliant at creating their art, whatever that is driven all in. I know enough artists who sacrifice everything for very little. Is that also what puts them at risk?

Speaker B: M that's an interesting question. It certainly could be a piece of, I think the system, ah, in general, and I'll be bold to say puts the population at risk just given how the culture is created. Yet I also do think I saw many creatives along the way that their craft is so personal to them. I can do my job in a different way that of course it's personal to me. But yet my who I am as a human is markedly different than what I do professionally. Yet for a creative, regardless of their creativity, it's an innate part of who they are as a human. So separating that can be very challenging, which also I think creates vulnerability. It's tough to know. Creatives have a much higher propensity for mental health struggles in general. And a lot of the research supports that. So people will say, so is that nature versus Nurture? What is that ah, about. And I would have to say it's probably a combination of both.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, exactly.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Now Belmont and the CMA come together to create the center for Mental Health and Entertainment. You get to lead this amazing thing. What in your own words, Debbie, why the center? Why now? What do you think is the gap that you guys can fill from some of the work you've been doing at MusiCares and those other organizations that exist?

Speaker B: I believe with mental health in general that it takes more than a village. It's a collective community for all of us have a responsibility for mental health. And so I also think that there's more than enough work to go around for everyone. Yet one of the things that drew me to Belmont when I was asked to serve on the advisory committee when this was just a concept, was was that the intersection between education and community and then adding the research component. There's some data out there and MusiCares has done an extraordinary job of continually surveying the industry to get the pulse of the industry in general and what those issues are. Yet being able to add the academic knowledge of a university that's well entrenched in research will only help inform programs, help add to the quality of programs, look at the efficacy of what's being presented in terms of programs and services, and then also for Belmont to train the future leaders in music or those working in music around emotional resiliency and to give them as much as possible a thumbnail sketch of what they're about to embark upon when with a career in sports, music, entertainment, et cetera, will only Better equip them to be successful and also can help permeate the culture in a way that creates change. That is a lofty goal. But I also just was so impressed that Belmont didn't have to do this per se. And I have only been there for a minute, so they may say something different, but that, uh, they chose to. And so my hope is that the center, again, another lofty goal, will serve as a template for other universities and other entities to emulate the same.

Speaker A: Yeah, this piece is really intriguing to me on a lot of variety of levels. And one is this idea of community research and resources, which I'll just put together, and education.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Thinking about those three components and in the trauma informed, human centered world, we. One thing that I've been banging my chest for about, for 20 years is great. I get to go into organizations and help them change culture. And it's good work. I love doing it. But at some point are you going to get to kids when they're students in these professions, teaching them at the ground, like, when are we going to build in trauma informed, human centered work into your education? And that's the piece that's really fascinating for me about Belmont and what they're doing. Yes, they've taken this very unique lens with the entertainment world. But something I'm thinking about is, okay, a student who's 19, who's starting out in Curb College, versus the person who's been on the road for 20 years working with musicians around the world. How do you envision that piece? Because that student becomes that person. Right. And beginning to bridge how they see the work. Because when I go into organizations, I meet the person who's 20 years into their career and they're like, shannon, I don't want to change. We've been doing it this way for so long. But that person teaches. The new intern comes in and we are in this thing. And I keep saying, when are universities going to really take that this has to be embedded in their actual coursework of this is the new way of doing the work into the future.

Speaker B: Agree completely. And I also will say I feel like the younger demographic is demanding more of this, which I love. It's no longer optional, it's no longer secondary. It's primary. And given such and that they're hungry for more knowledge and also much more vulnerable than I certainly ever was about any struggles I came from. The just fake it till you make it and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and keep on keeping on. And yet they're more willing to Pause. And they're hungry for knowledge around how do I take care of myself? So the CMAs actually did a panel recently where this was. This topic was mentioned where the old guard are really set in their ways and they don't want to change. And they look at a younger group and say, come on, quit whatever and just do it the way we're doing it. Yet I do think there's also that middle ground where the youths and eyes of the world too, who believe that we can bridge that gap between the younger demographic who's eager for some change, and a different type of environment with the older guard who's aging out. And I say that respectfully because I'm certainly in that older guard too. One of the things that I hope to create is a mentorship program that's structured, that brings those groups together for open dialogue, too. And maybe it's more not the older guard, but the middle group where everybody can start rowing a little bit in the same direction.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a challenge.

Speaker B: It is a challenge. But I do believe that there are enough, like the minded people out there that are curious enough about this. And I'll say to the older, again, for lack of a better term, but the older demographic, they're coming to me too, and saying, I'm aging out and what does this mean for me? And the struggles around their own mental health. And if they're then able to have a platform to teach the younger guard about how to avoid that or just to anticipate some of that grief.

Speaker A: It's an interesting piece for me, M. Debbie, because I've been saying, I find myself saying this a lot lately is when I'm training and especially when I'm like, we can talk about feelings at work. We don't have to do therapy and these things that I say. And, um, hey, this is where your young workers are, right?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And where some of the old guard is wrong. And hey, young folks, here's what you can learn from the old guard. But what I'm finding is that the leaders who are reaching out to me are now thinking about legacy. To your point, what's next for me is as this has been my Identity M for 20, 30, 40 years or longer. Sometimes, uh, what am I leaving behind for others? And I don't want to leave, for lack of a better word, the cesspool of we don't talk about mental health or it's so taxing, or I've been through three divorces. I gave up my whole personal life. I didn't raise my Kids like all the things that sometimes come when we begin thinking about legacy and what we're leaving behind. And so I find that I'm really intrigued by your mentoring idea and again this idea with Belmont for me, because when we know better, we do better. But I'm not sure the curriculum in many industries, not just business and entertainment. I think we could look at nursing, we could look at teaching, we could look at the justice system, whether we're talking about lawyers. Like we've really left this mental health piece out. There's very few classes. I know there are classes, but there's very few at ah, random institutions. And it's maybe one class, right?

Speaker B: Or a piece of a class or. And I do believe you have to start somewhere yet the more we talk about it, the more it normalizes the conversation and it reduces stigma. I do believe mental health is a branding issue and has been for decades beyond decades. But that switching that narrative to and think about, I continue to get excited about the sustainability and I'll just put it at the profitability and all of that. That can happen when people are healthy and well. So we used to use this terminology a lot at onsite, leaning into who we are as humans because people can say, I had a conversation last week about somebody saying that I separating work from personal. We don't separate personal from work. We bring all of ourselves to wherever we are and all of ourselves to our leadership and otherw. And so being able to be okay with the human side of not being okay because it happens to all of us can also help communities support one another and colleagues support one another. And again, if those that younger demographic has that knowledge and the skills to not only some tools to address it, when things come up in life, those potholes come up in life, but also begin talking about it in a way that's not where there's no shame.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love this. I wrote this down because I'm like, oh, this is the quote. We should name the episode. This Mental health is a branding issue is so powerful, I think. And I'm wondering because a lot of the people listening to this aren't industry folks, they're not entertainment folks. These are public sector leaders, Debbie, who may interface with the industry because they're bringing in somebody to do entertainment at a conference or whatnot. But if we really tried to get practical for a minute in thinking about those public sector leaders, and I'm thinking about this mental health as a branding issue, how do we begin to frame mental health as something more than a wellness Perk as well. Because that's the other piece that I see us leaning into, especially after Covid of uh, oh, we have to take mental health serious. So let's throw a pizza party. Let's celebrate our folks, which I'm not opposed to. Again, I think it's a balance of these things, but they frame it as this wellness pert versus the deep nature of what mental health is and mental health awareness is right.

Speaker B: And there's so much work to be done in that regard. I will say I think sometimes that comes from the best of intentions yet a lack of knowledge or fear around. If we really address mental health, what are we going to find? And that teaching people that in giving them skills to talk to one another, to lean into, whether it's your friend, your colleague, your family member, to be able to sit with hard conversations, particularly around. I was talking about this last week as suicide, which is even a hard word to say. And I've been working in this for so long, yet we have an suicide, uh, is of epidemic proportions right now. And so how do we. If somebody says. Comes to. To you and says I am not doing well. And you ask them have you ever thought about hurting yourself or taking your life? And they say yes. Being willing to sit with them and then knowing how to get them the support that they need. Now I'm talking about an extreme. And there's everything from joy and pizza parties to. To that extreme. Yet being comfortable with discomfort is important for all of us to just be. To know that when somebody is sharing something one lucky you to have been able to sit with somebody in their most vulnerable moments. That's never lost on me that I realize it's an incredible privilege when somebody opens up to me and shares something that is hard for them because it's difficult to share the shadow sides of ourselves. Yet again, having harder conversations with people you trust one, it's like a pressure valve. It releases some of that angst that individual's holding on to. And healing happens in community. So when you're willing to share something with somebody else, then some of that fear and angst loses its power.

Speaker A: Yeah. There's actually research around this though, Debbie. It's a really interesting piece because I think I agree with you. People are so afraid to uncork it, but they don't realize how much good can happen from the uncorking. One of the tools that we teach very often is community meeting. And it's made. One of the questions of community meeting is how are you feeling? And it's so many organizations revolt. They're like, we can't talk about feelings here. What if somebody says they're upset or suicidal or depressed or angry, and it's actually trying to teach that emotional intelligence piece of, just because someone's having a feeling doesn't mean you have to solve the feeling. And the research tells us that something like by just naming a feeling, especially if it's a negative feeling, we can diminish it by 80%. So if I say, Debbie, I'm really angry, and you're like, oh, shun, I, I hate to hear that. I know. I can't believe how angry I am. Like, every time I say it, I'm diminishing the anger that I'm feeling versus if we work in an organization, I can't share and I'm just like bottling it up and then all of a sudden I throw a chair at you. But this is what happens, right? And so that uncorking, to your point, is it's a really significant piece. Even if there's nothing you can do about the feeling, someone's sharing the idea of you being there in hearing and helping them to get to the support and resources they need. It doesn't have to be you who's providing the support resources necess.

Speaker B: And one of the things we did at, on site, which at first I was like, what is this? But in meetings, we did a personal and a professional check in. And at first I was like, oh, my goodness, we're sharing personal things. Yet it was so enlightening and helpful that then we got a thumbnail sketch of what was going on in people's lives. And it allowed me to see people more as humans versus just getting right to the work that's at hand. There are mental health minutes that you can share with your teams around simple things, but yet when you're not doing well, simple things can be challenging. So take a break, step away from your computer, limit your social media time, walk out of your office and connect with somebody next door. Or just simple things that teams can share and regardless of the profession to help keep their communities well. And what it equates to is people then say, you care about me. You see me, you care about me. Which we all need to be seen, valued and heard. That's a basic human need. So there's a lot that people can do to just, again, more than a pizza party, it's a little bit more depth.

Speaker A: Yeah. Those are some of the signs, I think that you would probably say, like, how do we also begin to see do we have a genuine culture of care? What are those signs? Because I think where I see leaders struggling often too is they think the culture is better than maybe it is. And so are there red flags, you might say, like, hey, here's red flags. When you have people who are suffering in silence.

Speaker B: I think just what you just mentioned, silence, quiet quitting, is an example of a toxic culture. The inability to freely share and have a voice is important. I will say people talk often about hearing versus agreeing, and there's a difference. A leader can hear you and not take your suggestion for whatever reason, but it doesn't mean that you aren't heard. And so really getting curious about on the receiving end, what I'm sharing is it being heard. But even if it's not, if they're not taking me up on my suggestions. But I also think where there's a lot of cliques and people are gathering in safe networks, which some of that will happen regardless, but that that can be an indicator of a toxic culture. I think one of the greatest things that leaders or any employee can do is just get to know the people around you on a personal level instead of keeping it at a surface level of just business.

Speaker A: So, Debbie, for many of the listeners and people that I run into on a daily basis, they're like, listen, this sounds great, but I don't really have a lot of control in my organization, right. I can't fix every structural issue. Budgets, schedules, contracts, like all the things we we hear. What do you say to someone who wants to be trauma informed, who wants to be mental health supportive, but feels like they have very little control, Think

Speaker B: that we all have control over our own being and our own responses and how we choose to show up every day. And so if that's a priority for any individual, regardless of their level at a company, there's small things they can do to support themselves and also support their colleagues. Just given the fact if they're trauma informed and they want to spread some of their knowledge and support, just leaning into the few people that are around them and that can permeate into culture, expecting broad changes can lead to disappointment. So when there's expectation around global systemic change and those that don't have any power or don't feel like they have power, that can be deflating. Yet you have so much power around your own community. And again, like I said, how you show, uh, up.

Speaker A: Yeah. As I'm listening to you say that, Debbie, I'm thinking like you sit at this unique spot, right? Like you're between Campus nonprofits, the industry. So you get to work with partners in that. Can you talk about maybe building effective partnerships? Because just from our previous conversations, like, you can't do this work alone. This work takes a lot of people. To your point, rowing the boat and even half the paddles in the same direction is great. Can you just talk about building effective partnerships for maybe those people who need to go out and find other people to bring along with them in the work?

Speaker B: Gosh, that's such a great question. I think building partnerships and community takes, again, leaning in, getting curious, asking people to lunch, grabbing a cup of coffee with somebody. That's new. If you hear of an organization that resonates with you, getting more familiar with it, uh, taking a meeting. I know most people, we're all very busy, but we'll pause and take a meeting or a cup of coffee or zoom, call with somebody who's just curious and interested about the work that's being done. I think there's. The music industry in general does that very well. It's very relational. And so the more you can get to know people who share your thoughts and feelings about certain topics, then you build a community right there that can help you move m things forward. So sometimes it can be hard to pick up the phone and call somebody that you admire or would love to serve as a mentor or. But take a risk and make that call.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: Because people are excited to talk about things that they're excited about too.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's the thing. People want to talk about themselves.

Speaker B: That is true. You're right about that.

Speaker A: So, Debbie, if I had you, just zoom out. When you think about public agencies, schools, nonprofits, what could they learn from the mental health journey of the music and entertainment world and vice versa? What do you think that the entertainment could learn from them?

Speaker B: I think that other agencies could learn from the entertainment world in that entertainment doesn't personalize mental health as much as they look at it as a cultural issue, which then takes some of the heat off the individual in general with the situation that they're in. Yet it's our individual responsibilities to heal whatever wounds that we have. So, that being said, certainly somebody who's struggling should lean into support. And then the music industry can often be. Or the entertainment industry can often be siloed from the community at large, and they become, at least the music industry. I can't speak so much to other entertainment entities, but music industry is very much, as I mentioned, relational, and they very much lean on those that they know and have built A level of trust. Yet there's so many other organizations out there doing amazing work and so becoming more curious about the work that others are doing. And maybe again, for the industry to get a little uncomfortable by getting outside of their vision of what's around them. Yeah. Get curious about what else is available out there and maybe lend some support to organizations that they're not familiar with or the public sector at large.

Speaker A: I love that. Yeah. At the end of the day, it feels like it comes down to two things. Relationships and curiosity.

Speaker B: So true. Agreed. And being open to both, which can sometimes be challenging, but particularly curiosity, I find when I get very rigid, I think, huh, huh, what's going on here?

Speaker A: Same.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it. To bounce back into. Get a little bit more curious, particularly in this world today. To get a little bit more curious,

Speaker A: especially in the environment we're living in right now, where news travels instantaneously. Not always accurate news, but news travels instantaneously. And you find yourself needing to, like, respond and have these boundaries. But I'm finding I need these more flexible boundaries even. And I got to be a little more curious about is that a real boundary or am I just being difficult?

Speaker B: Right. And sometimes that difficulty around saying I'm being difficult is a protective mechanism, too, because the world is so heavy right now, in my opinion, and we're consuming data, like you mentioned, either accurate or not at an alarming rate.

Speaker A: Yeah. Debbie, as we get ready to close, is there a small step somebody could take, like, doable tomorrow? They don't need a budget. They don't need anything that you'd recommend for someone who's just starting to convene people around mental health in their sector.

Speaker B: I would just say to get to know your people and get to know one another and get curious about folks and be willing to listen regardless, particularly in this climate, regardless of where they stand on whatever the case may be. But just to again, get curious and become more comfortable with those uncomfortable things in life.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Just know each other, get to know each other. Debbie, we close every episode with a few quick fire questions. Are you up for it? I love it. What gives you joy?

Speaker B: My family, my friends, my French bulldog, Ella. All of those things give me joy.

Speaker A: I love it. What is a simple daily practice you personally rely on when you feel the weight of the work?

Speaker B: I try to get smaller, just go inward a little bit more. My view. I get more grounded in the present and try to be more present with what's in front of me versus thinking about all the heaviness yeah.

Speaker A: What's one myth about mental health and entertainment you wish we could retire?

Speaker B: Gosh, that's a hard one. That artists and, uh, entertainment individuals have all of the resources at hand and have the world at their fingertips and they should be living happy, healthy, wealthy and free that they're humans just like the rest of us.

Speaker A: Do you have a book, organization, or resource that you recommend for people who are just starting to explore support?

Speaker B: There are so many resources out there for mental health, it's hard to name one. I'll say. I'm a huge fan of Brene Brown, just like most are, and she has just such a wealth of information about how she speaks to mental health in general. I'd, uh, say pick up one of her books or listen to her TED talk about vulnerability in particular. That's a really good one.

Speaker A: Complete the sentence A culture of care

Speaker B: is working when humans feel safe connecting with one another regardless of the circumstance.

Speaker A: It's so beautiful. If today's conversation helped you share it with a leader, an artist, or maybe a behind the scenes professional who's holding a lot right now. We created Mindful Management so nobody has to choose between well being and results. Debbie, so appreciative of the time that you spent with us for your decades of work behind the scenes and now for this. Really helping to build a center that puts mental health at the heart of entertainment and not just at the edges. To learn more about Debbie's work, Belmont center for Mental Health and Entertainment, please check out the links in the show notes and until next time, take what you need, try something new and tell someone else. Thanks everyone. Mindful Management Creating a Trauma Informed Work Environment is brought to you by Shuffalo Consulting. To learn more about Shuffalo Consulting and our trauma informed change management and professional development Solutions, please visit shuffaloconsulting.com that's Cheffalo C H E F A L O consulting.com make sure you don't miss these transformative conversations by subscribing to Mindful Management wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening. And remember, change happens one step at a time.