Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. David H. Rosmarin - Thriving with Anxiety

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to decodingaq, helping you to learn the tools, mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever changing world.

Speaker B: Hi and welcome to the next episode of Decoding AQ. With me today, I have Dr. David Rosmarin and he is in Boston. He's a clinical psychologist, he's a Harvard Medical School associate professor, and he's the founder of the center for Anxiety. So his mission is to shift the paradigm around anxiety from something to be feared or avoided to a trait that can be leveraged, often leveraged for things like resilience, purpose and performance. And his work has helped individuals and organizations unlock a healthier, more empowered relationship with anxiety, something I'm sure, like myself and many of our listeners would really love to have. And his most recent book, thriving with nine tools to make your anxiety work for you. It draws from over two decades of clinical experience and research. And with over half a million views on his TEDx talk, how to make anxiety, your friend. He really is helping change lives for the better. So welcome to the show, David.

Speaker C: Thanks for that intro. It's really great to be here.

Speaker B: Nice. So one of the things I find it fascinating when people go through this painful experience, or often painful experience of writing a book is post the birth, post the book out. What has surprised you most that has come as a result of your book, David?

Speaker C: The number of comments that I'm getting from around the world. Anxiety is something nobody can escape. It's such a human aspect of humanity. Um, and whether you're in Sri Lanka or Australia or across the United States, even the uk, can you imagine people are coming out of the woodworks and acknowledging their emotions and their anxiety, um, and sharing it with me, um, through my website. And that's really been. I always knew it was there. It's been there for me personally. But to see the breadth and the depth and the just incredible array, um, has been really something.

Speaker B: And so that opportunity to connect with people, to build community and relationships. Let's just start off with. I'd like to better understand exactly what anxiety is. Ah, you talk about a scale of, you know, 0 to 10 or, you know, really a 1 to 9 scale. How does it show up for people? What really is anxiety?

Speaker C: Anxiety has different components to it. The physiological or feelings component are very common, ubiquitous. And it can have sweating, people can have sweating palms, uh, tachycardia or your heart beating difficulty, uh, breathing, feeling a bit of a, you know, tightness in your throat, cotton mouth they call muscle, um, tension, of course, and all these sorts of symptoms. Dizziness uh, tingling in the extremities. And what this is really the activation of adrenaline through the body. It's the fight or flight system, which is occurring. Um, and when people feel triggered, um, or nervous about something, that adrenaline will flow and those physiological and emotional things, uh, will happen. Um, along those lines, there's also a cognitive aspect where people are thinking what's going to be. They're foreboding, they're worried, they're nervous, they're concerned about the future, about what could happen right now. Um, so that's definitely a piece. And then there's behavioral components, most of all avoidance. When people feel anxious, they usually steer the heck away from whatever's making them nervous. Um, we can do that in our minds. We're very good, very crafty at distracting ourselves mentally from whatever's making us anxious. Um, we can do it behaviorally, uh, by literally walking away. We can also do it, um, in terms of medication. And, uh, alcohol is a go to, uh, right. Hitting the pub or whatever it is, uh, when people feel anxious, um, in order to avoid these symptoms. So those are really. That's the constellation, uh, that we're speaking about here.

Speaker B: Okay. So it shows up in this multimodality. So physical things. You talked about some mental parts, and they're triggered from the nervous system system that then, um, respond in either thoughts or behaviors or actions. Tell us a little bit more about, uh, the scale, because we live with anxiety. And your whole approach is to shift the narrative from something to avoid, lock it away, you know, armor against it, or leave the room, uh, into leveraging it. So walk us through a little bit of that scale and how that shows up for people.

Speaker C: Sure. I guess the best way to do this is to explain the rationale for why you would need a scale. And when. When it comes to depression, not everybody feels depressed, but I would say everybody feels sad at some point in their life. And we normally bifurcate between those two constructs. Everybody feels sad, but not everybody feels depressed. When it comes to anxiety, we don't really use different language. We use the same language. We say we have an anxiety disorder, or we say we feel anxious. And it's all considered to be one big, um, constellation, as I put it before, that you need to stay away from that you should stay away from that you shouldn't have. And I think that's a myth. Anxiety is an emotion, and at the higher levels, it can get in the way of your life and be clinical, like depression to sadness. But at the lower levels, that's normal. It's normal, it's healthy. It can increase your awareness, your response time, your cognitive processing, your relationships. If you use it in the right way, it can make you more human centered as a leader and more approachable and more likable and more psychologically minded, um, in leading your organization. There's so many ways that anxiety in that lower level can be helpful. And that's why I came up with this scale really 1 to 9. 1, 2 or 3 and 3 are low levels of anxiety. 4, 5 and 6 are medium, 7, 8, 9 are high. And if you're having the high levels of anxiety, you probably have some sort of a clinical situation that needs to be dealt with professionally and brought down. Uh, and if it's 1, 2 or 3, that's called normal, that's healthy, that's something that you can thrive with. There is no zero on this scale. We don't get rid of our anxiety. It's an emotion. And in the middle it's sort of a toss up. Some people can thrive with high levels of anxiety or mid levels of anxiety. I should say. I've, uh, been working on that myself, um, to be able to metabolize and harness even mid levels of anxiety, um, sometimes with greater success than others. Um, but it uh, depends on your skill set. And that's, that's really where, where the opportunity lies.

Speaker B: So that rawness of a physical response, um, can then manifest through our own stories to either inhibit or, or support performance, an outcome, something that we desire. And so in the one sense context, those same sensations could be around a relationship and something we're excited about and we lean into. And in another part it might paralyze us from performance and action. Is there a real difference in terms of the physiology or is the only real difference the narrative and story we tell ourselves?

Speaker C: I mean, I don't think there's a real difference in terms of physiology. I have seen individuals with low levels of anxiety who cannot tolerate it. I've seen individuals with high levels of anxiety who managed to thrive with it. I think there might be some, um, limits on that. Like if it's super low, probably not. And if it's super high, maybe yes. But by and large there's no fundamental difference between high, medium and low anxiety. It really is a dimensional scale of emotion. That's what it is.

Speaker B: So it's personal, it's individual and textual. So what sort of things would show up that might have elements of commonality in the workplace and um, that would trigger somebody. And I often say in our family, you Know, my seven might be different to someone else's seven, right? And so when we try to anchor these things, to have a baseline, to have assessments, how do we deal with those things? If someone just says oh, oh I'm on a seven and well, my seven, well I'd be struggling to get out of bed for a seven or something. How do you deal with some of those differences of scales and reporting them and um, getting some commonalities around that?

Speaker C: I'll put it to you this way. I was having a conversation with a business uh, leader the other day and he's relatively junior, he's in his mid-30s, um, and he's the CEO of several companies. Serial entrepreneur, um, and successful in his own right. And he told me that his, one of his mentors is an ah, individual in his um, I think at this point probably late 70s. But he was um, you know, his mentee in his 20s. So this individual was you know, late 60s. And he said he remembered being in his presence and um, people would come to him from his team and present to him questions that were literally tens of millions of dollars, um, flying either way that could go in and out of his bank account in a hot minute. And whether they were issues of inventory or issues of deals to close or even legal issues, um, issues of policy, issues of taxation, uh, sort of running the gamut. This individual, he said, was largely unfazed. And when I spoke to him about it, we identified that there was anxiety present in the room. There was a lot at stake, but he was able to metabolize it and maintain his mental set by actually embracing that anxiety to make the best decisions possible. And that's a goal that my, you know, uh, this individual who I was speaking with in his 30s wants to be able to achieve. Um, and I think a goal for any business leader is not to avoid the anxiety. It's not to drink it away, it's not to um, pretend it's not there. It's not to be, be ah, distant from it, but actually to face it and raise your resilience, to be able to manage difficult situations, that's the opportunity for emotional resilience. Anxiety is a gold mine for emotional resilience. If you use the opportunity to go

Speaker B: so that opportunity to, to recognize what it is and one of your four steps, you know, identify and then be able to uh, move through that process to get a collected, considered. Maybe sometimes it's good that it brings a sense of urgency. It prioritizes our focus, our time, our resources, uh, of those things that we don't want to silence this. It's a great, um, signal. It's a great indicator. So if, let's just change tack a little bit because we've got this kind of base framework of what it is, we've got some scales around it. And you've already expressed the. The goal is not to get to zero, it's how do we harness this for desired outcomes. So if we were having a conversation, say at the end of this year, right, and you said to me this was the best year ever for you, okay, what has happened? What's happened in terms of, you know, what work has been done, what initiatives have gone on, uh, be that in the, um, work at Harvard, in your clinic, in various things. What for you would a great end of this year look like in the work that you're doing? Paint me a picture of that, David.

Speaker C: Um, what are my own goals and dreams and ambitions? Um, you know, I'll tell you, I think there's two things. There's obviously, you know, everybody wants to have success in different areas and different opportunities. Whether it's, you know, speaking continued, uh, corporate consulting, whether it's keynotes and workshops and lectures and those kinds of things, and success of a clinic and also academic advancement. However, when I think about it, simply having success in those areas is not necessarily going to build my resilience. What builds my resilience is challenges that come up in those areas and then being able to face them and learn new ways to create, um, inner peace in the context of struggle. Now, I'm not wishing that upon myself or anybody else who's listening, but if I'm being honest, like really being honest, that's where the opportunity lies for internal growth that fuels a sense of fulfillment and also future opportunity. I mean, by becoming, by standing up to those difficulties, that's what makes us into great people. Um, so, so what I heard was

Speaker B: this sense of continued improvement, of your preparation for what comes next. So how that might show up for you, whether that is, uh, a great keynote, um, more papers published, you, ah, know, whatever that element is, is actually the elements that gift you new capabilities through struggle, through building resilience through those things, knowing that after December of this year there's more to come, uh, and wanting to be in that state, we all wish, we hope, you know, that, that that will be the state. So in terms of if that's happening, what's gone on, some of those initiatives, some of those challenges that are coming in. Did you stop doing anything? Was there anything you said? I'm going to let that go for you in your work, in your life. That will allow you to, uh, leaning to more of the right opportunities. What's your kind of framing around, you know, if you could select the challenge or struggles, which ones would you say no to? Which ones would you say yes to?

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm definitely moving away from clinical work and much more into the corporate consulting. Whether it's coaching or also, like I mentioned, keynotes and workshops and uh, uh, consulting to organizations and businesses. Um, and the reason is because, uh, I think in the clinical world we're really stuck on seeing anxiety as a disorder. And that's not a bad thing. When people come in for clinical services, they do have those sevens, eights and nines, and it does have to be tamped down. But in the corporate world, by and large, when we're dealing with low to mid levels of anxiety, there's a real opportunity to actually harness it and prevent things from getting out of hand, but also to thrive with that anxiety. And that's really, I think, a sweet spot that the psychiatry has not moved into as a new frontier. It's a little terrifying actually to venture into it. But, uh, it's something that I'm uh, also enjoying, enjoying the challenge.

Speaker B: So what would the person that you engage with be experiencing? What would they be seeing? Is this a, uh, person who's in charge of wellness, in charge of innovation, in charge of change? What are they dealing with and what would be the trigger that they would then say, I need to engage with David and to think about embracing some of those things to shift the needle and shift that perspective. What are they experiencing?

Speaker C: Well, I'll tell you some of the conversations I've had with Chros and other business leaders, CEOs in the last month, uh, or so, ah, often in corporate world, um, anxiety is considered something that you have to throw a benefit at, you have to reduce and you have to get rid of. And through my conversations with these leaders, um, there's sort of this aha moment that oh, right. Anxiety can actually build resilience, build connection within teams, build a sense of belonging within a company, build a sense of meaning and purpose that I'm doing something which is challenging and that's a good thing that I'm moving towards in my life, um, and so many other different ways, building a sense of, uh, I'm actually accomplishing something, fulfillment. I mean there's a lot of potential good here when anxiety is at the low level. And that really changes the conversation, um, and then the opportunity for cultural Change for leaders to learn how to speak about anxiety in a way that doesn't lose faith in the company but actually enhances psychological safety and enhances a ah, sense of human centered leadership. So those are where the opportunities lie I think with keynotes, um, which hopefully change culture, uh, workshops which um, shape um, uh corporate uh, values around this and then also um, some coaching and conversations with leaders about how to embrace their own anxiety in a way that's going to enhance them in their organizations.

Speaker B: If you think back over the last 12 months, have you seen more engagements where it's a burning platform or a burning ambition? By that I mean are they getting and engaging to solve an issue, solve a problem? You know there's a, ah, poor um, team performance, a project has not landed well, there's some issue they want to solve. Or are you seeing that these people are engaging because of an ambition? High potential, high growth leaders, you know, um, wanting to improve something and get it better rather than fix and resolve something that's not working. Are you seeing a difference if you think back over the last 12 months between those two?

Speaker C: It's hard to say. I know that AI is shifting the conversations very rapidly and on the one hand um, there's more of a sense of mechanizing systems, getting things uh, more productive, uh, focusing on um, the sort of non human aspects of it. But then there's this sort of looming existential threat like if that's the case then what do I actually bring to the table, right? Can I be replaced by a machine? And that's where the opportunity lies for people to bring their anxiety to the table. Uh, I'll tell you, let me put it this way. The companies where I've seen things really blow up and not do well were led by individuals who could not acknowledge their own anxiety. And that led to firstly um, just hubris sense of uh, you know, everything's going to be fine. And also the anxiety which is just part of all of humanity gets subsumed, put away, um, suppressed, um, and can potentially lead to in uh, many cases addictions um, and other vices. And as a clinical psychologist I'll tell you it's not pretty when it happens. Um, so I think by embracing the natural uncertainty of the world, especially during a very fast paced time, there is opportunity but not everyone's taking it.

Speaker B: You hit on a really key thing that's come up in almost every conversation I've been having over the last few years which is around the human side of tech impact, adoption, whatever it might be, anxiety, fear, of something that some in their team feeling that that's a barrier to adoption and embracing it and others, oh, it's cavalier, they're you know, doing these things and causing other risks and knock on impact. So now I'm feeling anxious about those that are striving ahead and I'm feeling anxious about those who are not embracing it. And it almost feels like a no win situation for team leaders that have been sold this, you know, dream that we're going to be more productive. The you know, low grade stuff is going to go to tech and AI and the high grade. We can do more thinking, you know, be more creative. And they're stuck in this very difficult situation of the human side of transformation and AI and it's, we talk a lot about AQ before AI, you know, so our adaptability, intelligence before AI so that you know, we measure things like resilience, unlearning mental flexibility, certain skills alongside character traits in the environment, psychological safety, etc. So from, from your perspective, how might you support someone, a team leader that is feeling that sense of duality? Got some people that are running so fast, I'm anxious because they're going to, you know, cause us risks, legal issues and break stuff. And I've got other people at the other end that uh, are digging their heels in. They're fearful of their job and role and their future and they're not on my, not on my watch.

Speaker C: How can I deal with that? The clinician in me is hearing the fight or flight response. On the one hand you have the fighters who are doing everything they can to like, uh, we want to make this work, like we're going to push this forward, we're going to make this. There's this activation, that's what fight is, the fight response and that's adrenaline sort of doing its thing. Then there's the flighters, right? The uh, no, we can't have AI taking over. We have to preserve, we have to block, we have to tackle, we have to sort of avoidance and preservation and defensive. So there's the offensive mode which is fight, then there's the defensive mode which is flight. Um, and I guess I'll just answer as a clinician, neither of those works. Um, in the long run. I mean obviously in certain cases you have to fight or you have to flee because when there's a real threat. But when it comes to anxiety, the better approach is to embrace it and to say, I don't know what is going to happen next. I'm going to do my best to Embrace this and uncertainty and try to bring this into my team, into my business, into my organization, into my workflow and to my process and learn about it. I'm not going to avoid it, I'm going to face it. But I'm also a little bit nervous to just jump right in and, and to fight for something that I don't even know what I want. So there's sort of that happy, anxious point where you're both facing the adversity without pulling back completely and embracing the uncertainty that that comes with. Like, that's what leadership is about. This is, you know, that's what I imagine this is related to AQ in some way. I mean, how else are you going to have that cognitive flexibility to be able to lead unless you actually embrace the uncertainty and live with that anxiety? That's why you're a leader.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's very true. And where you said, you know, those two extremes, it doesn't work. It made me think of, you know, an analogy I wrote about, you know, a car. It's driving with the brake and the accelerator both fully pushed to the floor. You know, you're going to wreck it. Um, and companies need those two things. They need the accelerator and they need the brake. But it's the timing and the context of what's going on, what's the situation. And so I think the, the framings, the surroundings, which projects, which teams, which people, which regions, which areas do we want more control, more AI regulation, more pieces around it, whether that's in hiring, uh, and biases and ethics and other areas where they may be in their industry, in their projects, in their innovation pockets, where they might be able to push the envelope a little bit. And I think this links to kind of your step two around anxiety, after you've identified it, is actually sharing to share what's going on. And you talked about that. To be vulnerable. It's very difficult for leaders that have been given applause for having the answer and having the answer before of, uh, past performance, the rewards, the benefits, the promotions, the check at the end of the month to now say, I don't know, I don't know what I want, I don't know what the outcomes may be. That requires a very different environment internally for that human being as well as for that team. So as they transition into sharing, what kind of tips have you got to create a, uh, effective way of sharing that doesn't paralyze or make it worse?

Speaker C: It's the hardest of the four steps in the corporate world. And just to clarify what the four steps are for listeners who haven't seen my TEDx talk, which you referenced in the intro. Um, it's identify what you're afraid of, share it with someone else, embrace it to become more emotionally resilient as we've been speaking about a lot during our conversation. And then letting go, which we touched on a bit, but really involves accepting the limits of what you can control and understanding that and leaning into that anxiety and being okay with the uncertainty as opposed to trying to control everything. The sharing is often the hardest in the corporate world. Um, I would say maybe especially for leaders, but um, also for HR managers and CHROs. There's this tendency within the HR world to regulate, to um, create benefits, to create solutions, to uh, understand everything and to be able to present that to management in sort of a sort of black and white or box sort of way. And human emotions are dynamic. Um, when you. I'm not saying there isn't a need for systems, there certainly is. And if you work in a sizable organization you better have your systems in place. But you're also dealing with humans. And to be able to have uh, informed conversations with people about their emotions is a critical thing that needs to be done. There's a company I recently started working with called Lollipop and Lollipop, the origin story is a cool one. It's uh, um, the founder, uh, Jeffrey Marx, um, was sitting on his grandfather's lap when he was young and he used to be able to talk about his emotions and he would get a lollipop, uh, grandpa, I'm anxious, Grandpa I'm happy. Great. And he said, you know what? We need lollipops in the corporate world because people don't speak about their feelings. So he came up with an app. And what's amazing about it is it provides uh, instant feedback to managers about how your emotions are of your subordinates on any given day at any given moment. So it's a way of facilitating communication within teams about your feelings and it's sort of structured and simple to do. Um, so that's a very creative solution which um, is really getting some nice traction today. Um, uh, but yeah, I think in addition to having app based solutions for teams, um, the healthiest companies that I've seen are when the leaders, um, people in the C suite, chros as well are able to speak a little bit about their feelings and have that as a part of the conversation. It shouldn't dominate, but it needs to be part of it because it gives everybody permission to speak somewhat in a professional way that's pointed about their feelings. And we are human, this is part of the territory. So those are a couple of high level thoughts.

Speaker B: It's a tough balance, isn't it? I remember having a coaching call with somebody very senior in a big organization and you know, we are the sum of our past experiences that we're constantly evaluating of what worked, what didn't work. And then we, you know, trim off and experiment and was living with a very impactful um, moment in their career when they were told they were too emotional, um, and therefore had suppressed the sharing. And that had led to promotions to a very, very senior position. And so their, their link in their neural net was I behave this way, I'm rewarded in this. And now I'm being asked and society, these people are coming in and saying no, you need to share more, be more vulnerable. And there's this um, disconnect between when I've done that I got a, you know, a slap and when I haven't done it I've got a clap. And so this unlearning for many leaders of what does it mean to share professionally about emotions? What is that context and then setting that tone. And I remember um, a friend of mine, Keith Farazi, has uh, a really nice prompt which is around sweet and sour. So often we share something, you know, we applaud, what are we grateful for, what's working well. But how often do we share something that is not good?

Speaker C: Sour.

Speaker B: Sour. And it was just a really simple way and we tried it as a team uh, just last week to say we're going to just do a session on our team connect call of Sowers. And the rules are we're not going to resolve, we're not going to judge, we're not going to coach, we're just going to share some sours, some crap that's gone on this week. Where was there an area that it didn't live up to our expectations, where are we frustrated, what's going on and allow that space uh, for it. And Keith Elton talks about the leader to go first to set the tone. But it's still hard. It's still hard. What's your thoughts on some of that?

Speaker C: Firstly, there are corporate leaders who lean towards naturally sharing a little too much. And I have seen that in certain cases, um, and there is a time and a place to rein it in. Um, certainly, um, there's also a time and a place to know who on your team you can and should share with. It doesn't have to be with everyone. This doesn't have to be a public tweet or whatever it is, whatever um, your social media go to is um, about what's going on for you. It could be just somebody else who's on your floor or someone who's in your department or even a subordinate potentially depending on the nature of your relationship. Or a therapist. But it does mean getting it off your chest somewhere, somehow in a safe place, place that works. Um, I do think some sharing of feelings in the corporate world by leaders has a potential benefit for culture as a whole. But to your point, there is a balance and it's sort of how to thread the needle does depend on about 100 different factors. Um, I think as individuals though, everybody needs to be able to speak about their sours, to use your word, share their sours with someone else. Um, whether that's a, ah, spouse, friend, family, therapist, stranger, uh, anyone. Just get it off your chest. Get, I like to say, get it off of your mind and into someone else's heart.

Speaker B: That's nice. And you. I've talked also about the direction that anxiety could then point us in. You know, it can point us towards love and connection and it can point us towards disconnection and things that you mentioned like addictions and you know, perhaps uh, negatively uh, correlated consequences of anxiety. When we're going through, okay, we've identified that sense because it's showing up, I'm sweaty, my heart's going, I've got cold. So I've identified uh, at least that piece. Ah, I'm also trying to identify the context of what's going on. Some of that trigger, is this, you know, supporting me or is it holding me back? I then started to share some of this. So great. We've started to build some psychological safety in our team. We're figuring out we might fail a few times, share it with the wrong person or the wrong way. But we keep practicing, we keep going and find a realm for that. The next two in terms of embracing and letting go of this system to make anxiety work for us. I'm curious as to how we shift it forward from individual greatness to team greatness and organizational greatness in that how might we transition that for people who are responsible for teams, not just self in the embrace and let go.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean I'll give you an example um, of uh, a situation um, I was dealing with recently where a ah, team was facing a new challenge, um, because the rollout of a new product and there was a lot of stress, stress around this and things were not going well and uh, the manager was really trying to manage everyone's anxiety and reduce it and sort of uh, help uh, people to uh, it's going to be okay. And providing assurances that everybody knew or just not really based necessarily that manager's knowledge of reality. So sort of hopeful optimism but uh, not necessarily grounded. And uh, the direction that I encourage um, was actually to lean into the anxiety and to focus on the mission. To say we are rolling out this product because we want to advance the field, because this is going to make a difference in the lives of our customers, because this is on um brand with our company. Because there is a new vista for all of us professionally and as a corporation on the other side of this launch. And I don't know whether it's going to go well to actually lean into the anxiety and to embrace it, but we have to go forward because of this, that and the other. And the anxiety you're experiencing is normal. So to sort of use the anxiety as a galvanizing force to bring people together and to face the uncertainty, to embrace it and create more of a sense of mission and purpose around this. And once that happened the, the mental set of the team shifted. They were not only able to galvanize but also able to really focus their efforts.

Speaker B: Um, and for many organizations that have got clarity around the mission, they understand the purpose, they're able to connect and galvanize people and rally them around that, that can be really helpful. And I'm sure there's a, a great swathe of our listeners that are in that zone. There might be people who are in that zone. But also to your point before, when you're telling the story about um, the 30 year old's mentor remaining calm even when the consequences seemed big, there are people who are facing decisions where the consequences are significant. The consequences are significant around job change, job loss, you know, uh, transitions and shifts of many people in how they get work done, where they get work done, you know, return to office, mandates, let alone making somebody uh, or teams redundant. When the consequences, it's not about maintaining the connection to purpose of these things, but when underneath underlying from that the consequence of failure of performing is going to dramatically impact people when that situation is there. I imagine anxiety is perceived potentially higher for people when there's a sense of risk, a sense of loss.

Speaker C: Of course the uncertainty is higher, the anxiety is going to be higher to uh, to a point, um, but we can get into that to a point

Speaker B: and it might be that it is in a moment. Right. So rather than uh, continually under that pressure. They're under the pressure that might be for a day, a week, one year out of 80, whatever it may be, um, in those situations, is there. Follow the same process, just go through it, or are there some extra tips or thoughts that you can help when the, the stakes seem so high that it really, um, enhances that sense of anxiety and inaction rather than positive action?

Speaker C: Sure. First, I'll just say, if you're a corporate leader, you are going to have these moments, and that's where there is an aspect of embracing coming in, this is what you signed up for. I mean, this is part of being at the VP level or higher. You're going to face difficult situations and have to make hard decisions, and you're built for this. Otherwise you wouldn't be in the position you're in. So that's the embracing piece. But there's also letting go. And, you know, uh, if you take, uh, I'll give you an example of a CEO individual, um, who drives to work every day on the freeway and then has to face one of these, you know, potential, uh, existential threats to their company in, uh, the boardroom later in the day. They took a risk in the morning getting on the highway, and how anxious were they about that compared to this existential threat for their company? And usually it's not as much. And the reason why is because the actual uncertainty is the same. They could get food poisoning by lunch, they could get struck by lightning on the weekend, some sort of mishap could occur, and who knows, um, and they could also make the wrong decision in the boardroom. The difference is not this uncertainty. The uncertainty is the same. So that's not the difference. The difference is our tolerance of uncertainty. When you're getting in your car, you tolerate a certain level of uncertainty. When you're walking around or going for a hike, you're like, okay, there's a certain risk and I'm going to take it. But when you're in the boardroom, somehow, sometimes if you're feeling anxious, it's an indication that you actually haven't fully let go, uh, in that area, or maybe not enough, and you're not going to know the answer for sure. You'll have the best guess that you possibly can, and hopefully you'll get it right. But being able to put your best foot forward and letting go of the rest, that's a real. This is where I think, uh, anxiety can even potentially open us up to transcendence and to really becoming the best humans that we possibly can to uh, embrace that lack of knowledge and lack of certainty that are just part of our existence. So this to me is the highest level of development and something I certainly am working on myself.

Speaker B: It's always a work in progress, isn't it?

Speaker C: Very much over that.

Speaker B: I think this loops back to a comment when you shared about your vision which was building maybe your tolerance, right? Building your resilience, building your preparedness. And that can be through lived experience. It can be through visualization, meditation to become familiar with. We can play it through in scenarios that can either spiral in a bad way or spiral in a good way. Right. The you know, uh, formula one driver who visualizes going round, you know, 100 times is, is positive. The person who's getting in the car who's a bit anxious and visualizes having accidents or various things. Not such a good use uh, of visualization. One of the things we've started to see more of is simulation training. So, so we see it a lot in say the forces, you know, the services, fire, police, army, where they use simulation training to increase the tolerance, um, of you know, feeling pressure of certain situations. Yet we haven't seen much of that in the workplace. We are very much around, let's solve a real issue, a real problem or train that's so abstract to actually scenario simulations um, for doing that. Is there a way where you can see or have you seen any research, uh, or pieces around using simulation training and scenario training that can help improve that tolerance rather than you just got to wear the T shirt, get the scars and go through it.

Speaker C: Um, the one thing that's coming to mind again I'm going to wear my clinical hat here, is when people have generalized uh, anxiety disorder, which is characterized by uncontrollable worry, um, for most of the time, most of the day, nearly every day, um, uh, uh, we encourage them to actually think the worst. Not all the time, but for a period of, let's say five or ten minutes a day where they're actually going through a simulation in their brain of what would be the worst thing to possibly happen and to really confront that possibility in their mind and to force in some ways the letting go to have the mental preparedness where you are embracing it and invariably they're going to speak about it a lot more and then certainly identify the root of it. So really ticks all the boxes, um, of this four step process when you use this visualization. I could see that being imported into a clinic, into a corporate context, out of the clinical context, um, that's you know, something I'd love to experiment with and see how it works.

Speaker B: Could be interesting. It reminds me of um, my coaches chap called Dan Sullivan is in his 80s and um, he created many years ago something called the Impact filter is a one pager. Uh, we've used it for every project we start and at the bottom is two sneaky little boxes. One's called best result, one's called worst result. And so he gets you to really think about okay with this, what's the worst result here? How bad can it be? So you get it out, you get it shared within the team and it's identified. So is this project even worth it? Uh, you know what's at stake as much as what could we gain and that's really powerful and uh, effective in that kind of um, just sharing that worst so within self, maybe even sharing within someone else a trusted opportunity to do that of let that scenario play out and that simulation play out. Could be interesting.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. It's a really a good example of thriving with anxiety where you're taking the anxiety which is there and using it for a constructive purpose to actually evaluate what's going on here. At minimum, uh, to create camaraderie with your teams and a renewed sense of purpose and an acceptance of the uncertainty. Um, and potentially to actually change course based on that information.

Speaker B: It could unlock from uh, our perspective required adaptations. An adaptation of perspective shift, of behavioral shift or system shift process or procedures around things when you identify things through a different lens. One of the questions I ask every guest, uh, as we come to the end, David, is a homage to one of our first guests, Dr. Diane Hamilton, who focuses on curiosity. And so the question is this, when was the last time you did something for the first time and what was it?

Speaker C: I'd like to think every day I do something for the first time. But if I'm being truthful, I don't know if that's correct.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker C: Huh, uh, what's coming to mind? I don't know if this is accurate, but what's coming to mind is it definitely involved anxiety. Stepping onto the TEDx stage was really terrifying. Um, there's no notes, you memorize the whole script. And you also can't come across mechanized. You have to come across as a person. And I knew that I was going to be speaking about my own anxiety in public and uh, you know, as a member of Harvard faculty and somebody who's been doing this work professionally for 20 years, that was a real, it really felt like jumping off a cliff. Um, yeah, and I, I imagine even

Speaker B: for myself, there's a connection between how much I care and then the likelihood of the scale going up for sure. So you care, you, you cared about that, so you put in the work. But you've still got to turn up, you've still got to show up. Um, and, you know, from my perspective, that is, uh, I love watching talks, going to conferences, seeing people perform and take people on a journey. Your TedX. So it's really allowed people to connect with you. You know, the humility of sharing some stories, you know, meeting ui, various things that allowed both you to shift your balance and tone by getting it out, but also creating that connection with the audience. Because a lot of times we can say all the right things, but it never changes behavior. It never changes behavior, never changes the way somebody's thinking. And that opportunity to connect, um, just disarms from that fight or flight that, you know, they're willing to listen, uh, and then an opportunity to reflect of how does that show up with me in my own selective attention? Because we all, um, you know, we hear what our brain's looking for and we see what our brain is looking for, uh, in any talk. So when I was listening to it, uh, and went through it shifted a few things for me.

Speaker C: Wow, I appreciate the claps for, uh, you know, for being vulnerable and sharing, um, and, uh, that means a lot. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Speaker B: And to your, you know, I, I never prep people with that question, but if you turn up, if, you know, they've listened to other episodes and things. But you, you said, I'd like to think I do something new every day. And many of our regular listeners know my view and thought on this, in that we can do what we've done many times, but with new eyes and that opportunity, right, to find.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker B: Uh, is it correct? Is it truly correct? Was it the first time? Or is that the first time I've hugged my wife even though I've hugged her, uh, 10,000 times? Am I going in with that sense of, you know, naive eyes, naive to that experience, to really, uh, embrace and listen to it, see it, experience it. And for me, that's an opportunity of adaptation to make those new choices, to identify, you know, and I love your four steps, you know, and just to remind everybody, identify, share, embrace, and let go. And I think many things around our firsts, we have to deal with those things, right? We share them, we embrace, we let go. If people want to get in touch with you, if they've got some thoughts around um, getting you involved in their organization to help with some opportunities or some issues. How do they best get in touch David?

Speaker C: Sure, yeah. I'm always happy to engage uh, uh, LinkedIn. I'm on David H. Ross Marin uh, or D.H. ross Marin and my website is D.H. rossmarin. R o s m a r I n dot com. Um, yeah, love all questions, uh, points of engagement, certainly opportunities um, ah for to you know exchange ideas with like minded, like minded folks.

Speaker B: Beautiful. It's been an absolute delight.

Speaker C: Thanks.

Speaker B: I love listening to you, your work, reading more of your papers and what you're doing. It's meaningful, worthwhile work in the world. So thank you for what you do David.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: And we thought we were done but in the conversation afterwards David shared he is launching a new masterclass. That sounds absolutely fascinating. Can you tell us a little bit more about the masterclass, what it is and we'll send the links in for the listeners as well.

Speaker C: Sure. Very happy to share it. Um, the four steps that we talked about today, Identify, share, embrace and let go. For people who want to learn more about how to use those four steps really practically in their life. Um, my media team and I have put together ah a uh, asynchronous masterclass involving a series of videos. The first couple are going to be available for free.

Speaker B: So that's pretty cool.

Speaker C: And also involves a group coaching component. So people who sign up, um, I'm going to be able to work with you on this to actually implement this um, in your lives. Um, it's also a community we're building on Facebook around this and I think we have close to 400 people on the wait list.

Speaker B: Very cool.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, so it's really hopefully going to be a nice group of people like minded um, who want to not get rid of their anxiety but learn how to use it in a helpful way that uh, that leads to thriving. That's what, that's what it's all about. That's what the entire program is about.

Speaker B: Fantastic. So we'll get that in. If you are listening in it's on your, on his website. That's DH Rosmarin. That's R O S M M a R I n.com masterclass. So look forward to um, seeing all what you're doing in that work and hopefully some from our community coming and joining.

Speaker C: David, be great. Thanks so much.

Speaker A: Do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo yo? Do you have the ability to unlearn in order to reskill, upskill, and breakthrough. Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ. Visit AQAI IO to gain your personalized report across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability. AQAI transforming the way People, teams, and Organizations Navigate Change thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding aq. Please make sure you subscribe on your favorite podcast directory and we'd love to hear your feedback. Please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.