Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Shelley Winner - Restorative Justice

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to decodingaq. Helping you to learn the tools, mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever changing world.

Speaker B: Hi and welcome to the next episode of Decoding aq. With me today I have Shelley Winner. And what a great surname, Winner. And we're going to find out more about that as we learn about the life of Shelley, where it's really proof that second chances can create world class talent. She leads the Winner's Circle, which is a movement which is equipping justice impacted people with the skills, mindsets and job placements that they need to build thriving careers. And whilst we might think that was a tough job and hard, she also takes on the job of convincing employers that a fair chance hiring is actually a competitive advantage. So welcome to the show, Shelley.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: So, as we were just getting prepped, you came in with this energy that hit me even through the zoom of a high. And that high comes from winning something. Right? And you've just signed, uh, a contract with some prisons. Tell me a bit more about that, what is that? What is it that you really do? And let's get started in there, Shelley.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So I started a company called Winners Circle and it's an in prison rehabilitation and vocational training program. So there's essentially, there's three pillars. Um, the first pillar is really focusing on mindset and rewiring the brain because, um, many people who are incarcerated, and I would say just people in general are stuck living in their past and they fear controls them and their emotions control them. And so it's really about getting the person free, developing that emotional intelligence, um, and then I use the word helping them get categorically more whole as an individual. Then we move on to the second phase where we really focus on like financial literacy, how to interview, how to dress for an interview. We go into the importance of your circle of friends. I mean we have many, many, many modules. We have over 60 modules and the program in itself takes about a year to complete. And then the final module is sales trainings. So because for me, I mean I'm, I used to work for Microsoft. I was a sales, uh, I did B2B sales for them. I was a surface specialist, Um, I ended up becoming their number one sales rep in the world. And um, I'm just passionate about sales and really everything is sales and if you can master sales, you can do anything. So that's my program in a nutshell. And the reason why I started this program was because I myself am formerly incarcerated and I was very fortunate because I had access to a lot of rehabilitation. Now this isn't the norm in most prisons. I had access to a ton of programs that rewired my brain and my thinking and my view on the world. And that's what enabled me to achieve the success that I achieved in life. That was what enabled me to get the job at Microsoft, to become their number one sales rep in the world, and then now start my own company. And I also know that if I can do it, I truly believe anybody can do it. Yeah, they just need to be taught the skills and the tools.

Speaker B: And I imagine in those situations you've got a real vast diversity of people in their own journeys. Right, uh, ah, going through. And I really loved how you were framing some of that first work is on mindset and on the mindset to be able to, you know, what did you put it? Um, become wholesome or be, uh, categorically

Speaker C: more whole as an individual.

Speaker B: Categorically more whole. Great way of thinking about whether you are someone who is going through a period of, you know, justice, uh, impacted, or anyone. Right. This can be a big part of it, of how do we get categorically whole? So what does that, what did it look like for you? What were the triggers that got you to that stage in that realization of becoming categorically whole for yourself?

Speaker C: SHELLEY so it all started, um, after my arrest. I was arrested for trafficking drugs across state lines. And then right after my arrest, I found out I was pregnant. And so for me, that was a huge turning point where I knew that I needed to turn my life around, regardless of the fact that I was going to be going to prison because I wanted to be a positive role model for my son. My father, unfortunately, was not a positive role model. He was in and out of prison most of my life, introduced me to alcohol at a very young age. And so I became a product of my environment. And I did not want to put my son in that same situation. So, um, the first thing I did was get myself into a rehabilitative program. Um, it was a drug rehabilitation program. It was, uh, faith based. And I was in this program during my pregnancy and while I was still fighting my charges, my case. And that's where I really started to change. Um, that was where I fully surrendered to a power greater than myself and learned tools and skills to change the way I looked at the world. Um, and so by the time I got to prison, I set the intention that I was going to spend my time in prison leveraging every program that this prison offered. And I was very fortunate because I was sent to a prison that was flooded with programs and volunteers because it was a local prison in the Bay Area in California. And so when I got to prison, that foundation that was built from the drug treatment program, I just kept building, uh, on top of that with every program that I did. And I really leveraged my incarceration time as my incubation period because I had no distractions. My son. I gave birth to my son right before he turned myself in. So my mom was caring for him. And I knew this was my opportunity to really focus on my personal development. And so I did. And I mean, I did so many classes. I have. I probably did 60, 70, various courses, classes, and, um, some that had a profound impact on my life in the way that I think. And, um, you know, I learned about fear. I learned about forgiveness and why that's so important. And these were concepts that I never considered before. You know, I always thought, if I'm fear, if I'm scared of something, then I'm not going to do it. I would never want to push myself outside my comfort zone. But when I learned that fear is a normal human emotion that protects us, it can also hold us back. And so I then started to push myself outside my comfort zones in more ways, um, than I had before, just to kind of develop that muscle and that skill. Um, forgiveness was a huge thing for me, uh, and forgiving those that had wronged me. And the moment that I learned how to do it, it wasn't something that happened overnight. It was something that I had to keep working on. But once I learned the concept and why it's so important, then I was able to let go of all those resentments that I had, which freed up my energy, because we're all filled. We're energy. You know what I mean? I was able to free up energy for more productive things in my life. And that's where I started to experience. Experience freedom. And so fast forward to me getting out. I was able to leverage these tools when it came to getting a job and building a career at Microsoft, because, mind you, they did not want to hire me. That's another story. I don't know if you want to get into that.

Speaker B: We'll get into that. But, uh, what it sounded like, Shelley, there was. You had this and described an epiphany moment of almost like a directional choice.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Of, uh, how do I want to leverage this? Because I see a reason for me tomorrow. I see a reason for who I need to be, who I need to show up and who I need to show up for with the blessing of, of your son. And so that um, decision and journey to uh, accept and embrace the opportunities that presented itself. Is that rare in your experience of people that are in, you know, justice impacted, situations that become incarcerated, that reach that even prior, let alone day one in your experience? Uh, you know, is that really rare? And if it's rare, how do you actually deal with it with people who haven't had that epiphany or that moment or a view that I'm valuable, I'm worthwhile, I need to show up tomorrow. Uh, and that sense of hopelessness that perhaps people like me have a perception of. There are some people who are incarcerated who have a sense of just hopelessness.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, no great question. And really, um, were there people in prison that were hungry for the change? Absolutely. It's not rare at all. Um, I would say most of the women that I was incarcerated with were programming. Now you always have the select few that are, are opposed to it. Don't they want to spend their time playing cards?

Speaker B: Or was it mandated or selective?

Speaker C: No, selective, selective.

Speaker B: Uh, and most took, took hold of that and part of that in your m. Wow.

Speaker C: Yeah, because I think, you know, when I was in prison, I had a fear that I was going to be stepping into a place with the meanest, most evil people. And, and really that wasn't the case. There were just normal everyday people that made mistakes, got caught and wanted to move on from their mistakes and, and really like turn their lives around so that they could, when they get out, be successful contributing members of society.

Speaker B: So it really was more of a structured educational institution for you and for many others of, okay, you've removed all the distractions and temptations and you know, pieces, uh, in there. And I imagine in that environment it became viral in a positive way that when people saw each other in their community, in their peer group, bettering themselves, that that gave them confidence and permission to explore and do more.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Is whilst that experience, it was, you've described, not rare in your experience of, of that, um, you've worked in lots of prisons now.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Was that a unique prison or is that something you're recognizing more and more than my perception as a layperson looking at it and seeing films, digesting, you know, novels and all of these things where they are, as you mentioned, the, the dangerous places with people that you wouldn't want to be in and around.

Speaker C: Right. Um, so I would say the prison I was at was unique, um, and rare in A sense, um, of the prisons that do offer rehabilitative programs, there's about 44% of them do and the others don't, or they offer very little programming. So that's why, the main reason why I launched my program, and it's a digital program that will be launched across the tablets because that way we can scale and then we can get into the prisons that are remote. And I think a lot of the reason why, um, a lot of the prisons don't have more rehabilitative programs is because they don't invest in more programming. And a lot of the prisons are remote, so it's hard to get to. So volunteers, um, are not coming to the prisons that are further away because it's a hassle to get there. Um, um, so, you know, doing a digital program is my way of making,

Speaker B: um, that accessible and.

Speaker C: Making that accessible. Yeah. And the fact that I have lived experience and with my story, and I know the impact that my story has on people because it shows them this comeback kid. It's this like, this comeback story. And it, because I've been in their shoes, it gives me that credibility. And now they think, man, there is hope when I get out. And they will listen to me over other people that have not had lived experience. Um, because, uh, we have a, ah, commonality now.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So that one big part that you've been describing as say, one side of the coin of the training, the adaptations, the mindset shifts of the, the individuals of the businesses, the organizations and the structure and states around them, the other part then is right, I'm now out. I want to leverage all that has been gifted me from there. Hey, I'm gonna, I can contribute. And employers say, not on my, not on my watch, you know, not in my, not in my home. Not in my part. Uh, no way. So, ah, tell us, how did you deal with that with Microsoft? Was Microsoft your first stop, Give us a little bit of journey from out, from that environment into the work environment for you?

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So one thing I want to note is when you do personal development and you change your way of thinking, you also change your vibrational frequency and you start operating on a higher frequency. And when you're operating on a higher frequency, the law of attraction, which is a basic law of the universe, they just don't teach us this in school, but it's where like attracts like. So if you're operating at a high frequency, you start to manifest and attract opportunities. And so I really attracted this job at Microsoft. And it's interesting how it Came about. So I get out of prison and I set the intention that I wanted to work in, uh, in tech specifically. I've always had this affinity for technology. When I was getting high and selling drugs, I actually had started my own computer repair business. It was my side hustle to my drug dealing, but, you know, and I got really good at fixing computers. And so for me that was something that I wanted to do. I also knew that tech offered great pay, great benefits. Um, I love the culture. From what I perceived from movies and television, it just seemed like working in tech was amazing. It was a dream and so I wanted to work it to intact and I just set that intention. I didn't really know how I was going to achieve it, but, uh, I figured I'll just get out, enroll myself into college, start working on a computer science degree, and then once I graduate, then I can, you know, achieve my dream working at a big tech company. Well, things happened a lot faster than I had ever imagined. And so this is how the law of attraction works now. I got out, I'm, I am like ready to take over the world. I have this completely rewired brain.

Speaker B: And how long were you in Shelley, when you talked about doing those 60 or 70 programs? You've come out, what was the period of that?

Speaker C: So I had a four year sentence, but I did a year and a half in prison because I did one program where I got a year off my sentence and then I had eight months halfway house time. And then I got eight months good time, I believe.

Speaker B: Yeah, okay.

Speaker C: Yeah, so I did about a year and a half and I just spent that program. So, um, I wanted to work in tech. So I'm at the halfway house at this point and I'd been out maybe a month. And I'm downstairs at the exact moment that the news was on and I was grabbing coffee and the news reporter said, if you have a criminal record and you want to work in tech, then you need to sign up for this program called Code Tenderline. I can't make this up. So I'm there at, uh, that exact moment to sign up to hear about this program. I beeline towards the TV to listen to the rest of what the reporter had to say. I, I got on my cell phone, I looked them up, signed up for the next cohort, and it was literally across the street from the halfway house telling you, you can't make this up. So I signed up for this program and it's a job readiness program and they teach you how to write a resume. They Teach you how to dress for an interview. Uh, they teach you how to interview. But the other thing that they do is they have all these deep relationships with all of the tech companies in San Francisco. So they took us on this tech tour to all these various companies, like, um, you went to Google, uh, and Microsoft, and, uh, Twitter and LinkedIn. And we got to meet with the employees there and, and hang out with them for the day. And so we ended up developing relationships. And when you do things like that, you also not only develop relationships, but, but you develop allies. And so, um, I had gone to the Microsoft store and they had mentioned they were hiring. So I used the resume that Code Tenderline helped me write to apply for the job. Well, within three days, I'm getting a call back for an interview. So then Code Tenderline helps me prep for the interview. And I was so well prepared that when I walked into the interview, I did so well. She ended up hiring me right on the spot. And I. And then she tells me the background check. I mean, the job offer is contingent upon the background check passing. And I just thought, oh, no, you know, here I am. Um, I just got this job offer. I knew this job was going to change the trajectory of my life. I mean, it was the retail store, mind you. And so this was perfect because it didn't require a college degree and it's still getting my foot in the door at Microsoft. And I knew if I can get my foot in the door, uh, my goal would be to work my way up into corporate. When she told me I had this background check, I knew at that moment that this opportunity would potentially be ripped away from me. I told her, hey, I have to tell you something. I just got out of prison. Now, it was for drugs. It's not who I am today. I've totally turned my life around. But I wanted to tell you this because it's going to show up on the background check, and what should I do? And she said, well, just be honest about it, because if you lie and you're caught, then you definitely won't get the job. And then she said, um, you know, we'll just cross that bridge when we get there. So I went back home and I got the link for the background check. I filled it out, I was honest, I hit send, and it took about a month, a month and a half to get the results back. And so during this time, what they do is they assume you're going to pass the background check, so they start having you fill out all of the paperwork. So here's another thing that happened that was crazy, is as I'm filling out the paperwork, uh, at the bottom of one of the emails that Microsoft sent me, said, if you have a criminal record and you feel you've been discriminated against, contact the Fair Chance Ordinance. And I'm like, what? So I click on the link and I'm reading what this ordinance is. And it's a law that San Francisco started, and it was a fairly new law at this time, too, and it protects people with criminal records from being discriminated against. Now, there's some criteria for the law to protect you. So one is the company has to be in San Francisco city limits. They have to have over 500 employees. So check. Check. Right. The person applying the crime can't directly relate. So if you rob a bank and Wells Fargo doesn't want to hire you, then that's a valid, solid reason. Mine was drugs, so had no bearing on my, you know, didn't relate to selling computers. Check there. Then the other portion, the other piece, um, was that if the person has proof of their rehabilitation, then they can't be discriminated against. Check. I had all four. I was like, this is crazy. This is. This sounds too good to be true. Because I'd never heard of a law like this before.

Speaker B: The place where you are the, you know, law in that, you know, small little pocket of the world.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Company. You've chosen the. All of those events as you. As you said, you know, this manifestation through even just your frequency of being tuned in to see those things.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: A lot of these things exist, but we don't see them because we're blind to them. You saw them and then acted on many of these. Continue with the story I'm loving.

Speaker C: Well, let me tell you first, too. I was not supposed to be sent to San Francisco. I was supposed to be sent to a halfway house in Fresno. And while I was in this drug treatment program in the prison, I had a new case manager because my old case manager would have denied me. My new case manager was way cool, very nice woman. And I asked her, I said, can you please help me get to San Francisco? And she said, yeah, I can help you, but it's like. It's like a 50, 50 shot. And I said, well, let's, you know, go ahead and put in the request and we'll see what happens. So technically, I wasn't even supposed to be in San Francisco, but I ended up.

Speaker B: Or maybe you were, uh, maybe m. Exactly.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. So, okay, so, um. So I get Done reading the ordinance, right? And I'm. I'm in shock because when my dad was, you know, trying to get back on his feet because he had moments in his life where he did get sober and he was trying to do the right thing and become a productive member of society, he had the worst time finding employment. Like, nobody wanted to give him a chance. And so, you know, when I read about this law, I was like, it sounded too good to be true, but I just. I put that in my back pocket, you know, and I. I just said, okay, you know, uh, I'll pull this out. You know, we'll see what happens here. And, uh, I may. Or I may not leverage it. But, um, so anyways, the results come back, and they were. The background check was obviously flagged, and Microsoft said I had three to five days to respond and basically tell my side of the story of why I had this drug arrest. And so I just really use that as an opportunity to, um, shape the narrative here. Like, yes, I made some mistakes, but here's why I ended up. I became a product of my environment, um, and an addict. And since then, here's everything I've done to change my life, and here's who I am today, and here's why you should hire me. And I sent that letter off. And then all those certificates that I had from all those different, um, rehabilitative courses I took, I scanned them all to my cloud drive and I attached them to that letter. Uh, because I knew, especially after I read what the ordinance stated about having to have proof of rehabilitation, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm going to send them.

Speaker B: I'm going to give you that.

Speaker C: So then I hit send, and I just really prayed for a miracle. And they came back and rescinded my job offer. And I. And I. I was just. I was devastated, you know, because here I was. I had told all my friends and family that I got this job offer. I mean, I was so excited, and I was so proud of myself because, you know, I'd broken past these barriers, so to speak. And then now I just hit this brick wall. And there was this sense of shame and embarrassment and also this sense of, like, hopelessness. Like, am I ever going to be able to move on from this? Because I've turned my life around. I've paid my debt to society, but I'm still being punished. And it's. It's just. It's. It's not a very good feeling. And so I end up calling the Fair Chance Ordinance. I was reluctant. I really Thought it was too good to be true at first. Um, and even my dad, because I told him about it, and he's like, there's no way that law is going to make Microsoft hire you. Like, that's just ridiculous. And I was like, I don't know, dad. I'm going to. I'm going to call him and just see what it's about. So I do. I call him. And the lady who I spoke with had asked me, you know, what company discriminated, Discriminated against me. When I told her who it was, she said that they'd never fought a company that big. The biggest company they'd ever fought was Foot Locker. I don't know if you guys have Foot Locker in uk, but we know Foot Locker. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, that. That made me a little nervous. She told me, uh, not that it didn't mean that she wouldn't fight for me, but she just wanted to prepare me that for the journey that was going to lie ahead with this, essentially battling one of the biggest tech companies in the world. That they were just a small ordinance, that Microsoft did not have to abide by this ordinance. If they didn't want to, they would be fined. And I don't think the fine was very. It was minimal. It was like, I don't know, 250 bucks or something. So I'm thinking to myself, okay, great.

Speaker B: A great thing with no teeth. Uh, yeah. Hopeful heart, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And so she says, do you want to do, uh. Do you want me to. Do you want to fight them? And I said, absolutely, let's do it. So I went toe to toe with Microsoft, and, boy, let me tell you, I was scared. But that was the moment where those tools and those skills that I learned through all of my personal development really came into play. Because I think anybody at that point would have probably tucked their tail between their legs and walked away, you know, like, oh, this company doesn't want to hire me. Why should I fight them? You know, what if I win? And then they retaliate? Like, there was all that going on in my head, but I had learned how to challenge those beliefs and those fears. And I told myself, if I don't fight, I'm going to always be left with what if? For the rest of my life. And I wasn't willing to live with that. So we went back and forth for months, and Microsoft said, uh, well, she hasn't been out of prison long enough and she's not trustworthy. We can't have her around Our customers, information, all of basically this, the normal things I'm sure any company would say when it comes to hiring somebody with a criminal record and why they don't want to, it's always a trust issue. Right. And the Fair Chance Ordinance lady said, listen, we have these laws in place for a reason, because we want people to become contributing members of society. This woman has turned her life around. She has the skills to do the job. And just because you're Microsoft doesn't mean you don't have to abide by the laws that we have in place here. And Microsoft came back and said, we've never heard of this law. So this is crazy. So remember earlier I said Microsoft was the one that sent me the information during my onboarding. It was at the bottom of one of the emails. So the HR department in San Francisco knew about the law and so that's why.

Speaker B: Classic left hand and right hand, right?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Know what the other party is doing and there's, uh, always gaps, right?

Speaker C: So they knew about the law. And part of the law was is that on every, um, on every hire they have to send that information about the Fair Chance Ordinance. But they never communicated it back to headquarters in Washington. Well, guess where my background check went. And guess who were the folks that made the decision to rescind my job offer are located. So Microsoft says, we've never heard of this law. Right. And the lady said, well, you have now, so you have. Here's your options. You give her a second chance or you will be fined. Microsoft said, okay, fine, we're going to give her a second chance. But the original position she applied for has been filled because it's been so long. But there's another position. It's the same one, but three other people already applied for it. So she's up against three other applicants. Uh, oh my gosh, you know, and that was another point for me. Or I was like, man, this is going to be their way of legally not hiring me. They're going to say somebody better interviewed, somebody more qualified interviewed, you know, and I did not want to have to interview again. I mean, I don't know about your listeners, but I hate interviewing. Anyone out there. Hate interviewing. Raise your hand. So here I had to go through it again, right? And so I, uh, said, okay, I'm just, I'm gonna do it. And I went into the second interview with the same person and I was, in my head, I was, I knew it was riding on the line. I knew, I figured she knew, you know, I figured, you know, HR had talked to the hiring manager.

Speaker B: It was a very different version of you.

Speaker C: Yeah, very different.

Speaker B: From the first interview to that interview.

Speaker C: The vibe was completely different. She wasn't as cheerful and welcoming. And, um, I bombed the interview. I basically left that interview telling myself, there's no way I got this job. And I started to process it, and so I get back to the halfway house, and it was like, I got done with the interview around noon, and I went and went to bed and slept that entire day because it was just emotionally draining. I woke up the next morning, started to process the fact that I didn't get the job and that, uh, I'm going to have to figure something else out. Well, then two days, two or three days later, I get a phone call, and on my caller ID, it said, Microsoft. And I'm thinking, I'm like, why is Microsoft calling me right now? And I answer, and it's the recruiter, and she's offered me the job. And I was like, what? I literally screamed. I didn't mean to. But I was in such a state. State of shock at that moment that I was hearing her tell me that Microsoft was offering me the job. And she laughed. She thought it was so great, not laughing at me, but just laughing because she'd never heard such an amazing response before. And, um, I just. I couldn't believe it. I told her, yes, yes, I'll accept the job. And I got off the phone with her, and I started running down the hallway and I'm yelling, so m. I can wake up my neighbors and. Or, you know, alert them that I got the job. You guys. Oh, my God. Microsoft hired me. And then I ran downstairs because everybody at the halfway house knew my story and the situation and all the staff there. So I went down there and I was telling all the staff, and everyone's like, yay. You know, it was just a huge moment in my life where I really realized that, you know, if you change your energy, you really will change your life. And. And the things that happen to you and the miracles that can take place and the synchronicities that you start to see. And, um, that's how I. I think that's when it really fully clicked for me, because all of these things were pretty miraculous. You know, um, just the. The fact that I heard the news reporter at that exact moment, the fact I got into this incre. That helped me get this interview at Microsoft, the fact that my job offer was rescinded and there happened to be a special law. The fact that I even went to San Francisco in the first place was a miracle. Um, the fact that we won, that I won when fighting, uh, Microsoft was a miracle. And these were all things that I was like, wow, you know what? This, there's something to this. Because not everybody has all of these crazy miracles start happening this way. And I knew that it was something, um, it was a greater force than myself, but I knew it, it attributed to my personal development and the frequency uh, of which I was operating at. Because uh, when you're operating at a higher frequency you will start manifesting miracles like it's nothing. So. And that's not even it, that's not even the last of the like, that's. There's even more I can tell you that happened.

Speaker B: It's interesting listening not only to your story but the way you describe it. And I'm coming up to 400 days of consecutive daily meditation. This whole thing I've been, you know, fascinated by quantum mechanics, by frequencies, by how these things exist and how do we tune into them. Um, and what you've just been describing, that we use the language, this thin pipe of language, uh, to describe these things and they often manifest as you know, miracles or you know, unexplained events. But actually there's a deeper uh, sense here going on of all things our frequency and energy and who we surround ourselves with, I. E. What version of ourself and then who else then either um, impacts that or is impacted from it. And all of those things start to build up this perpetual motion that how could it happen versus how could it not happen? Because it's the knock on domino effect that it was bound to happen because those things were building up to it. M and from the outside it's hard to um, narrate that. Even from the inside it's hard to narrate that. And equally it often only really falls into place with hindsight and reflection in the moment. We're just going from one to the next to the next. So with your experience there, that was not easy. That took grit, that took resilience, that took a, A uh, community of people around you to manifest a result for you that is now the version of you there that has, you know, had incredible TEDx talks that is creating these programs that's rippling that impact and effect. Where you mentioned, you know, you now no longer work at Microsoft and you had this difficult decision to go all in where your heart is versus where that gifted you. And I'd like to understand that decision and what are the challenges you're now working towards on that other side, on the Microsoft side, how many more are there seeing this as an opportunity? If the listeners there are in an organization that say, I've never heard of this, I am, um, biased in all of these ways. But now I've heard it. I want to learn more, I want to find out more. Can we open this opportunity up? Where do they go and start? So give us that fork Microsoft to where now? And how do companies, if they're interested in this, do something about it to unlock that potential?

Speaker C: Yes. Well, first, let me start with another miracle because it, um, pertains to what you just asked. So, as you know, Microsoft was not a fair chance employer. But after, um, I was able to get into the company, I then became a case study. And for me it was, I mean, I was operating on such a high frequency because gratitude is a very high frequency. And so when I was, I was just so incredibly grateful that they gave me this second chance. And so when I came into work, I was just oozing gratitude and would do anything to go above and beyond and really just be the best employee I could. Well, having that mindset, um, and operating on that frequency goes a long way. And so I ended up getting promotion after promotion, and then I then got into corporate, which was another miracle in itself. But what ended up happening, because Microsoft was able to see my work ethic, it kind of lessened the fear about hiring people with a criminal record.

Speaker B: You broke down the doors and you built bridges behind you.

Speaker C: It sounds like 100%. And so Microsoft changed their hiring policies. First, it was only in San Francisco because, well, one, they had to, that was part of the requirement from the Fair Chance Ordinance. Um, but, but then they went and changed their hiring policies worldwide and they, they became a fair chance employer and they joined the Second Chance Business Coalition, making a public statement about being a fair chance employer. And they went public with my story with PBS NewsHour. You know, so the fear that there is around hiring formerly incarcerated talent is just a legacy way of thinking because not everybody, especially those that are applying for jobs and if they have the skill sets, that criminal record really shouldn't make a difference, um, because I ended up being a huge asset to Microsoft and I've brought in over 50 something million, 50 plus million dollars in sales. You know, at the short time that I work there and you know, anybody can be an app, an asset, the background really has no relevance because that's the past and it's who we are today that really counts. But here's the other Thing and why it's so important to hire from this. I call them untapped talent pool because they really, truly are. Only 50% of companies hire from this pool. But uh, it will also give you a competitive advantage. You're dipping into a talent pool that most people aren't. You're dipping into a talent pool of these hustlers, these go getters, these individuals that have made grave mistakes, that want to move on from them. Because what happens with adversity, it builds character, right? And you have people, especially if they've spent their incarceration time developing themselves, they want to get out and, and uh, take over the world. And it's better for our communities because 95% of people who are incarcerated today are going to be released at some point. And so helping them just makes sense because if we don't and we discriminate against them, then we basically force them back into doing things to make money in, you know, in ways that they only know how, which are uh, usually illegal. Then they get incarcerated again. And then our taxpayers, you know, uh, the taxpayers have to pay for the incarceration. And it costs over a hundred and something thousand dollars a year just to incarcerate one person. It's actually cheaper to send them to Yale or Harvard. We're talking about a uh, bigger issue here at uh Play when companies are not wanting to hire people who have been incarcerated. Right now the recidivism rates are 76%. So that means 76% of people go right back to prison within the first five years. And the number one reason is they can't find stable employment. You know, they find they can. They may be able to find these dead end jobs, but those dead end jobs, you know, that pay minimum wage don't really meet the uh, you know, don't really help them pay the bills.

Speaker B: And so they have them transform to a new version.

Speaker C: So that was another thing with my company. It was like, okay, not only am I going to rehabilitate them, but I'm also going to work with employers to um, partner, create partnerships. Because I want employers to see, um, that this is really something good to do. Not just for their company because they're going to get an incredible, loyal, hardworking employee, but also for our communities. And I am creating these partnerships where um, they agree to interview my graduates and they're getting a applicant or potential employee that's done a lot of personal development, you know, and so it's like a win win. It's a win for the person returning to society because they're getting interviews, um, and potentially a job. It's a win for the employers because not only are they hiring from an untapped talent pool and contributing to, um, bettering our communities, but they're also getting a hard working, loyal employee. And then it's a win, uh, for our communities because now we, the taxpayers are not having to pay for incarcerating this individual. And now they can be a contributing member of society. So it's just, it makes sense.

Speaker B: It makes sense, but we're still dealing with human beings with, as you put it, legacy mindsets that have got, um, often the decisions that are made are not rational. They're often emotional driven.

Speaker C: Uh, exactly.

Speaker B: And for many, it's still not an easy concept that. Okay, I get it. But then in practice, in practice, as you said, oh, makes sense. A simple framework. Or robbed a bank, getting a job at a bank, that might be a stretch of the trust areas where there's still opportunities. So if, uh, our listeners are listening to this and they are compelled to want to, you know, make a difference in this movement, because you describe this now as a movement, what are the sort of ways they can get involved in that at uh, Winner's Circle? Um, how does it function? What do partnerships look like? Just give us a quick walk through, Shelley, of uh, our listeners going, wow, I hadn't even really considered this. Now I'm aware of it. I can't unsee um, it. Where do I go next?

Speaker C: Yes, first thing that I would advise anyone to do is see what the policies are at your company. What are the rules or policies around people who apply for a job and their background check is flagged. Um, because usually in most cases it's an automatic no. See if you can figure out, um, who those decision, um, makers are in that process and sit down and have a conversation with them. Because people don't know what they don't know. Right, until you teach them a different way of life. And so it's simply about having a conversation with somebody who may have a legacy mindset and say, hey, look, here's the problem, here's the solution, let's be a part of the solution and here's why we should be a part. Right? And that's what ended up happening with me at, uh, Microsoft. When I tried to get into corporate, somebody went to bat for me, had a meeting with all of the decision makers because they did not want me to move over to corporate even though I already worked for Microsoft. And he went in there and basically reframed their thinking and by the time he got done, they had decided they were going to give me a second chance. So it's about having those conversations, really being that advocate. Right. Um, and then partnering with, you know, they could partner with us, with Winner's Circle to make a pledge to say, hey, you know what? We really believe in this movement. We believe in. We're becoming a fair chance employer. We'd love to, to, um, interview your graduates upon their release. And that right there would in itself would be, you know, huge. Right?

Speaker B: That's huge. Yeah. It sets an intent and it sets an awakening of an adaptation of a inclusive society in an way. And I think, uh, a lot of the challenges that we talk about on this show and with all of our clients is, Is dealing with what was to what will be, and the permission to reimagine our thinking, to reimagine policy when it's hard, when it's difficult. And we need those champions, we need those advocates, and we need the groundswell of the stories that we can connect to. And your story is a powerful story. And that, uh, allows us belief, allows us a permission that it's possible. And then we replicate on that, and we replicate. And as you say, it becomes a movement, one person change at a time. If, um, you think about a version of end of the year, right, we've got, uh, six months left, a version of Shelley and I, we're having a conversation, and you say, do you know what? That was the best year ever. All of these things, you know, all the miracles that happened before are inconsequential to the miracles that have happened in 2025 and this last six months. What are some of the things that you're working on and some of the things that you are manifesting through your own frequency, through the intentionality that will be true at the end of the year. Paint me a picture of that, Shelley.

Speaker C: Yes. Thank you for asking that question. Yes. So, obviously, getting launched in these 25 prisons is, is very important to me and to continue to grow that footprint. So within six months, I, I want to be launched in 100 prisons. And the way to do that is really getting the word out about the program. It's speaking on stages, it's being on podcasts. Right. And really sharing this, um, story to get people to want to act. And, you know, hopefully there's, um, people out there that are, uh, in corrections that can open up an opportunity for me to come and present and show them what my program has to offer. And I'm also, um, I've been Applying to a lot of re entry conferences. So conferences that focus on um, you know, prison reform programming, things like that. I've been applying to all the various re entry, um, conferences. So, um, within six months I am manifesting that I will get accepted at every single conference. I just got accepted for one. I'm so excited. Um, it's called aca, it's the ah, American Correctional Association. So anybody who's anybody in corrections is going to be at this conference and uh, I am giving a workshop on winner. So I'm very excited. So really just scaling the business and not just launching in prisons, I want to launch in jails, I want to launch in juvenile detention centers and also making it available for people who are re entering society. So that's what I'm working on now, that's what I'm manifesting is scale speaking opportunities, more podcasts and oh, donations. Always looking for donations. You know, anybody who wants to support this movement, um, you know, you could go to the website, it's winnerscircle us.com. although once I go global I might have to change that. But there is a donate button, um, for anybody looking to help support us. And then there's also hire me to speak button. So, you know, having me come and speak at different organizations, spreading this awareness is everything that I am working on for the next six months.

Speaker B: A lot. So I've got a call out to our listeners and to myself and our team. Who do you know that needs to hear this story? Who do you know that you want to send a link to this podcast that will help them reframe? Who do you know that will invite Shelley to the stage to audiences to communicate this message. I think it is such important work that you're doing. I've got two people in mind that I want to connect you with that, uh, and I'm going to mention their names, they may even be uh, listening. But I'm going to make these connections of Joe Polish from the Genius Network and Genius Recovery. I think he could be a really key person to connect with and on some of his stages and his network and one of our certified partners, Bill, who we spent some time with in Vegas, who works inside, um, uh, in the prison service in lots of different ways. So I'm going to make those two connections and introductions and my invite to everyone who's listening is to think of the same. Think of the same. That even if it's not you, who do you know that can help do this work? Because our society will thank you. Our society will thank you for doing this, uh, work, Sherry. It's been a absolute, you know, lovely opportunity to really hear your story. And it's not just the story, it's the energy and way you tell it and describe it that really connects with people. And uh, for those of you who are just listening and not watching, you'll get it through the tone, but also with the visuals, super powerful. I, uh, don't want to leave without the question that I've asked every guest that's been on this show, Shelley. And it's around curiosity. One day maybe it's going to make something, I don't know, a book or an article or piece around, you know, uh, 150 people's answer to this question so far. It's when was the last time you did something for the first time and what was it?

Speaker C: The last time I did something for the first time was about a year ago and I went and took an improv class and it was so fun. Um, totally took me outside my comfort zone. But you know, it's funny that you asked that question because when I signed up for that improv class, I was thinking to myself, what is something I've never done? And. And so I went. As I thought about it, the improv popped into my mind and I said, perfect, let's do it. And it was a blast. You know, it's interesting too is improv. Doing improv really develops your self esteem and mhm. Your confidence. And I never realized that, you know. And then when I joined the class, here I am with all these people of, you know, take improv all the time and they're masters at it and I'm, I'm scared, you know, but I'm like, you know what, I'm going all in. And I had the best time.

Speaker B: Ah, yeah, that's lovely. We have in our community of uh, certified partners. Funnily enough, we've had incredible success with improv practitioners and improv people because there's such a tie in between adaptability and our uh, science and our methodology and improv. Um, and I love to hear that. So you've mentioned your site. Um, if people want to get in touch with you as well. Is the site the best way is LinkedIn? What's the best way people get in touch with you?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean they can contact me on LinkedIn. From what I understand, I'm the only Shelly winner, so I'm easy to find my, my website winner circle us.com. they can also send me a message on the website the if they want to email me info@WinnerCircleUS.com I'm on all social media, Facebook, Instagram winner, uh Circle has a tick tock and Instagram. So um, you know, feel free to hit me up on any of the social media platforms, email, website, um, love to get in touch.

Speaker B: Shelley Deep Gratitude. We start in fact every week in our company on our stand up with a positive focus and gratitude from each member. It is the highest frequency spoken my language throughout today. It's been an absolute joy and a pleasure. So thank you deeply.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker A: Do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo yo? Do you have the ability to unlearn in order to reskill, upskill and break through? Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ. Visit AQAI IO to gain your personalised report across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability. AQ transforming the way people, teams and Organizations navigate change. Thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding aq. Please make sure you subscribe on your favorite podcast directory and we'd love to hear your feedback. Please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.