Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Hannah Louise Shelton - Global Commercial Engagement & Knowledge Lead - dentsu

Hi and welcome to Decoding AQ, helping you to learn the tools, mindsets, and actions to thrive in an ever-changing world. Hi and welcome to the next episode of Decoding AQ. With me today, I have Hannah Louise Shelton, and she is the Global Commercial Engagement and Knowledge Lead at Dentsu. And actually, we met each other a couple of months ago at an event, And I think one of the things that stuck in my mind was that whilst Hannah is all about people, learning and development, she shared some amazing stories on stage in kind of like this hot seat, which I'm sure we're going to get to experience a little bit of that today. But this combination of not just driving talent strategy and employee experience, but a thirst for curiosity and learning and someone we had in common that we both admire and like in Chris Voss. So I I wanted to start off with, Hannah, where did you first come across Chris? Oh, good question. And thanks for having me on. I'm really excited to be here. It was, you know what, I know exactly when it was because I remember reading the book and then negotiating the price of my first house. So, that will have been probably about 5 or 6 years ago. And I was really into any sort of, you know, self-development, you know, self-growth, those type of books. Books, um, was reading a number of them at the time, and I remember coming across this one, I think on a list somewhere, I can't exactly remember where, and thinking it sounded really interesting— intense but interesting— and a big part of me thought, okay, this guy is an ex-FBI hostage negotiator, not sure how relevant this is going to be to what I need to do in my day-to-day, but let's give it a go. And I roped my now husband in to read it with me, and we kind of did a bit of, you know, reading the paperback and also doing the audiobook in the car when we're on long journeys and things like that. Um, and we both just loved it. I mean, obviously you'll know, but it was very practical, and I was quite surprised by that because, like I said, I wasn't quite sure how I was going to resonate with any of his experiences. But the way he described his approach, um, in, you know, in his everyday as well, and really broke it down, I thought was just fantastic. And like I said, it led to a success successful negotiation of my, of my first house purchase. And I guess a lot of the challenge that people have when they're learning new things, when we're at work, when change is happening, we might be inspired by something, we'll read something, but the then, the gap between there and applying it and getting a result out the other end is often the challenging bit, right? So, in that example, you were inspired because you had a goal in mind. You wanted, okay, how do I get this house? How do I get a successful outcome and negotiate that? And then roping somebody else in. At that time, that was before Dentsu, I guess. That was when you were at TJ. What was going on in your work world as well whilst that was happening that gave you space to learn something else as well? And just tell me a little bit more about, you know, as a learning, you know, manager and person who puts programmes together, how you then approached it, perhaps differently to maybe many people might? Yeah, I mean, I was really lucky at that time because I worked in a team that emphasised self-development and we actually did things like book clubs and I then brought, obviously, Chris Voss to that book club and made everybody else read it. But I was really grateful to be in a space where everybody around me valued that as well. So, it was almost kind of a task of mine every so often to go out and find a new book that would make me think a little bit differently or, you know, try and approach a problem in a different way. Um, and the role I was in at that time, which was a digital learning lead role, I had to be very creative. So a lot of my role really became about how can I get a totally different viewpoint on something, how can I learn something new so that I can engage my creative brain and deliver something more meaningful. So that was kind of why that was happening at that time. And also I was going through a bit of a personal transformation, if you like. Um, I had spent the first part of my career really unsure of myself and very much kind of doubting where I was going to progress to because I didn't see many examples of me in leadership positions. I saw a lot of very dominant, very assertive, very direct people, you know, the kind of more traditional view of leadership, if you like. And that's not me at all. So I was going on my own sort of personal journey of, okay, well, what does that look like for me? And I discovered something called the Strengths Profile, which is something I recommend to, you know, so many people. Um, and that kind of taught me or showed me a version of myself that was really powerful, but in a very— in a much more kind of quiet, um, way. And all of this kind of discovery, you know, reading these different texts and listening to different podcasts and all of that, I think just made me kind of have a better appreciation for who I was at my core and allowed me to, you know, explore different aspects of myself, I guess, and, you know, my leadership style in a way that I wouldn't have done if had I not kind of been, you know, so open to finding those different things. And like you said earlier, having that curiosity, I think that's one of my key drivers is curiosity, and that is something that I keep having to come back to, I think. So, and you were there for quite some time, right? 7, 8 years? Yes. And evolved many roles during what would have been lots of different transitions and transformations of yourself as you were discovering who you are. And I guess so many people listening will be resonating with that because we all go through the journey of figuring out who we are. Sometimes it, you know, we never really realize or understand who we are. But what were some of the triggers that helped you evolve a new definition of what leadership could look like for you? Because you mentioned you don't fit the traditional. Yeah, so I think, I mean, one of the triggers, if you like, was I actually got put forward for a promotion at one point, and it was on the linear career path that I was kind of already part of, um, in the world of planning and buying where I started my career., and I was told that, oh yeah, we'd quite like to put you forward for this, this senior leadership role. And I really kind of actually started to spiral at that point. Initially I said yes because my brain was telling me, well, it's a promotion, I should say yes, right? That feels like the right thing to do. Um, but then I end up really kind of spiraling and really doubting everything. And that's kind of where I started to question that, okay, am I going to be— have to become somebody that I'm not because those are the only examples of leadership I have? Um, and then that and kind of this strengths profile that I mentioned that I, you know, I did this assessment, I got this report on what my strengths were because I was curious of what that could look like. And it was just, it was a few keywords that came out on the report that really made me stop and think. Um, and they were things like judgment and connector and catalyst, and those were things that felt really powerful to me and I was really excited about, and they were, you know, according to the report, things that I do really well but I don't use as much as I could. So I saw those as my, you know, potential areas, if you like. And the more I sat and thought about what that looked like for me, um, you know, and judgment, for example, is something that I, you know, I was always very quiet in meetings. I would never say my piece. I would just sit and wait. For the right moment. I'd sit, you know, I'm very kind of a reflective person, so like I said, I just kind of sit and sit and sit and wait and go, oh, maybe I could say this then, and then somebody move on, and then all of a sudden, you know, the meeting is over and I've missed my chance, basically. But Judgment taught me that I should really trust my instincts. I do make good decisions. I do have a valuable point to put forward, so I just need to trust in that a bit more. Um, and then, you know, Connector and Catalyst again were things that I sort of had in the back of my mind, but didn't necessarily attribute to being a great leadership quality. But it's funny because the more you become aware of those things, the more you then start to recognise them in other people. And actually, when I started to kind of notice that, I thought, actually, being a connector is a really cool leadership trait because you don't have to be the expert on everything. And actually, it's quite the opposite. The higher up you go, the less you know about one thing, you have to know a lot about, you know, or a little about a lot of different things. So, actually, I was like, ooh, 'You know, connector could be quite a cool thing for me to explore. That's a positive leadership trait that I hadn't appreciated before.' So, that was some, you know, some of the kind of the things that triggered that, you know, experience. Yeah. And I think, you know, StrengthsFinders is a great tool. I remember reading the book and you had the little code that you could tear out and go and do it and get your 5 top strengths out of these, you know, I think there's 30 or 40-odd that they assess you on. And I think with that awareness, we can then see things differently, look for things in a different way. And balancing between, you mentioned, do I need to change, become somebody I'm not? Or do I need to be in an environment that values who I am authentically? Or does the system that I'm joining in need to adapt and change? And I guess each of those realizations, it was become more aware through courage, you know, courage to say yes to do those things, we then recognize different things. You mentioned, ah, now I saw connection is a superpower in others. I see this in others in those types of roles. Are there ways in which, as you've gone through that process yourself, you're feeding those sort of bridges back in some of your programs? A lot of things you talked about was how to shift, you know, disengagement and lack of engagement into a superpower using L&D and things like that. So, tell us a little bit more about how you design programmes to help others follow some of those paths that you've taken, Hannah. Yeah, so, I kind of, you know, drawing from what you've just said as well about whether it's changing yourself and changing your environment, I think when I left my previous company, and we've, you know, you will have heard a bit of this before, but I felt like I knew what good looked like. I had my master L&D plan. I was like, right, I can just pick this up. And take it to a different company and I'll see success. It'll be great. I'm really confident in this plan. And what I've kind of quickly learned through working at Dentsu, which is very, very complicated, is that it's not just a one-size-fits-all model. And I know that that's something that, you know, we often talk about in this world in particular, but I've kind of realized it, you know, in a very meaningful way. And it links back to the strengths piece for me because I realised that my goal isn't consistency here. My goal isn't to create something that I then have to go and deliver in the same way, by the same people, in exactly the same format, and that, you know, my job looks like, you know, good is when everybody's heard the same message the same way, if you like. What I realised is that, you know, 60% can be good enough. You don't have to get to perfection here. If you've got something you want to put out there, go and test it with a few different people. Listen to what it is they're really trying to tell you. What are their wants? What are their needs? And then make it sort of bespoke to what is going on for them right now. And actually, it is then about changing the context in which they're receiving, you know, the learning in whatever capacity that looks like. But it's given that right context and the right relevance. Because I'd spent some time in change management as well, and I think one of my key learnings there was people people resist irrelevance, not change necessarily. So, if you can really lean into that, you'll see a lot of success with it. So, I never now go to somebody or go to one of my, you know, different audiences and say, "Right, you need to do this learning in this way." I say, "Well, you tell me what it is you're most concerned about, how your people like to engage with learning, what, you know, what are their strengths, what are the things that they're looking to elevate?" And then I make it feel bespoke to them. So that's kind of how I've changed my approach somewhat. And it honestly, you know, you won't be surprised to hear that it has a better outcome than doing it the original way. So, yeah. And I guess a lot of people, you know, we designed these systems to be effective at scale. So we would put things into manuals, into videos. You know, the LMS systems were this balance between, oh, if it's all personalised, if it's all one-to-one, if it's all coaching, it's very effective, but it's high cost. And so therefore we pushed it back into ability to scale without losing too much of the effectiveness by having same stuff. Here you are, consistency. I think now what we're seeing, this shift to personalised knowledge scaling, is that we can almost have the best of both worlds, that it can be very personalized and still scale without it being very costly. And I don't think we've had that kind of situation before. We would just go, here's a bunch of videos, pick which ones. Here's a bit of learning pathway, but it's still consistent content, but your path might be different. To now, that immersion can be— the video you see will be different to the video I see. The content will be different, but the outcomes that we're trying to achieve It's very much more around the situational learning. We can use AI to do these things. We can use mixed realities to do these things. Tell us a bit more about who Dentsu are and what's getting you excited at the moment about the application of some of these, you know, new skills that you're dealing with, some of the change projects that you're dealing with, and things like that. Yes, I mean, the world of Dentsu and the broader industry is going through a period of change right now. You know, I think as it is for a lot of different industries, but that, you know, there's a lot going on out there. So I think it's, it's a really challenging yet, like, you know, it's, yeah, it's a time for opportunity. And I think, you know, obviously on the topic of adaptability, adaptability, I think there's a huge need for that at the moment from, you know, not only just the people at Dentasy but obviously what we offer to clients and things like that as well. So there is a lot going on, and I think, you know, most people are resistant to change. Like I say, a lot of the time it's irrelevance, not change itself. But I'm, I'm a bit of a freak in that way. I love change. I embrace all the chaos. I love it. But, you know, most people don't like change because it means that, you know, they're gonna have to potentially relearn quite a lot of things, and it's going to be more difficult in the short term. So I think a lot of what I spend my time doing or thinking about is how do we support people through this period of uncertainty and do it in a very sort of pacey way, but also in a way that's going to land, which is kind of, you know, related to the earlier point as well. And I think a lot of what I keep coming back to, um, because I'm also a coach outside of my work with Dentsu, and I know you mentioned coaching before as well, but I think the best way to support people through some of this is to go back to things like coaching and things like community, because I'm a big advocate of— I think we've got enough knowledge and learning out there, to be honest. I don't— I'm not really in the business of creating loads of new content because I don't think we need it. I think we need to support people to engage with it in different ways and also exactly when they need it. So I know there's no point in me saying, hey, I've got this new piece of learning on how to develop a commercial offer I want everybody to go through it in the next month, you know, spend 2 days in a classroom going through this content from A to Z. That's what good looks like to me. I know that's not going to work. I think what I need to do is say, okay, let me know when the next pitch you're on, for example, when does that kick in and how then can I support you with feeding in this content as and when you need it so that you're learning it in real time? But then also, you know, I do want to explore the idea of having, you know, a mentor or a coach that can— or just a, you know, peer community that you can test and trial things with. Because I think that's what a lot of people are missing is that, you know, obviously people are time poor as well, right? But that opportunity to test and trial things and ask questions and take risks in a safe environment to enable them to learn and kind of really engage with it in a deeper, more meaningful way. So those are a lot of the things that are sort of going on in my mind at the moment. And I know it's, you know, something that I'm sure a lot of other people will be kind of conscious of and thinking about. Yeah. And let's ground this a little bit. You know, Dentsu is a big firm. It's what, nearly 20,000 people globally? Yeah, it was about 70,000 globally. 70,000 globally. Yeah, it's huge. Yeah. It's a huge business that is going through its own sort of dual transformation, the transformation of internally as a team, who, you know, how do we perform, what are our skills, but also externally in the marketplace of what we offer and how we deliver value is shifting massively. So it's this context of what are the new value propositions, and then what is the team required in skills, makeup, and, you know, to deliver that new value. So it's, it's a double-sided piece. With its, all its different challenges. And one thing that resonated with me was around this push versus pull of content and where you've managed to become almost like this internal resource where a country, a region, an area has a challenge. You talked about, you know, commercial proposition, a pitch that they're going on and saying they come to me at the situation and at the time of need. And then apply the, you know, shared knowledge, best practice, the experiment that's worked over here, something else that's worked over here, or just encourage them to maybe be the pioneers of a new approach and giving them the support around, hey, try something new, rather than here, it's proven, it's tested, when frankly, we know that's probably not the case for a lot of things right now. They're not proven. It is new. We are developing new propositions in real time. So in designing those, that hasn't been overnight. What has been some of the things you've done for that to now be the type of way the business engages with your department and with you? Yeah, I mean, like you say, it happened very slowly, and initially I was going about it the wrong way, I'll be honest. Like I said, I came in with that master, master plan that I realized actually after some time wasn't the right way to go about it, but What I did was sort of shift my thinking to how can I just absorb, I guess? How can I— how many different conversations can I almost insert myself into? How many different projects? How many different teams? And how can that be my sole focus for a bit, honestly? And how do I learn and build my own EQ so that I can really understand what it is people need and what I was then able to do after time is, you know, not only figure out what it was that people needed, but I built trust with people across the business in different teams, um, different geographies, to the point where— and, you know, I shared this before— at my pre— in my previous world, I almost thought it was a failure if somebody came to ask me where something was. Um, you know, I built this whole learning platform, and if they came to me and said, hey, Hannah, where's you know, this bit of learning that you had, I would almost be like, oh, didn't you know that? I've done so much work on trying to engage with you all on where all this stuff is. Like, that's so frustrating. But now I see it as a real positive because I've built that trust, as I say, and I've got that, you know, perception around the business now that, okay, I'm not quite sure what it is I need, but I know that Hannah's the person I can go and ask to get it. And I don't mean— I don't mind being that conduit, if you like, between where their needs are and where, you know, where the information and the content is and helping bridge that gap. I think that's actually a real positive that people see me as that go-to person and I can help connect them because the more I do that, the more familiar they'll get with the content. And they're also, you know, as you say, it's a pull versus a push. Like, they've come to me, they've asked that question. Yeah, I'm able to then facilitate here. Exactly, working on this. I think this is a, this is a who, who can help me in developing the, you know, to get the kind of results that I want, the adaptations I need to reposition it, to reshift it, to negotiate better, to whatever elements it might be to get the, you know, contracts and people and work that lands value, right? So in terms of how you see the next year from, is Hannah the human still the go-to and the answer for things and everybody coming to you as a, oh, that's great. I see that as a success that they are coming in. I then signpost, point, direct, help within there. More of the same over the next year, or is there the next phase that you've got in mind, Hannah, of a transition of efficiency, scalability, different content? What is it that you're looking at that you're excited about for the next year? Yeah, I mean, there definitely is more of that, and almost I've become quite attached to it in a way, so I don't want to lose that. But, and you know what, you know, different markets and different teams are in different places, so I think I'll still be doing that for the next few years, you know, and it will take time for it to sort of trickle down everywhere, I guess. But I think something I'm interested in exploring is, you know, AI agents, because like I say, that's another way to connect people with content, and they can almost like, you know, I am a version of an AI agent at the moment in the way I'm operating. So to have something something like that that we can build and then scale for people, um, they have at their fingertips then. So maybe they are like in a meeting with a client or about to kind of develop a, you know, presentation or something like that. They can just go into this agent and say, hey, um, I need a bit of support with building this offer or this value proposition. Can you direct me to the right place on, you know, on the Learning Hub? Um, so I'd love to spend a bit more time thinking about that. And it's— I think what's really cool actually is that lots of people already looking into this across the business for different purposes. And what I'm, you know, excited about is learning from what everybody else is doing because, you know, nobody is really an expert at AI. I don't think, you know, it's going to be really difficult for anyone to be an expert AI, the rate it's changing. But I think seeing what other people are doing in that space and kind of helping each other, and I think that's what's great about Dentsu as well, that everybody's up for mucking in and, and supporting. Everybody makes time for everybody. So I think that's going to be sort of my main focus, especially early next year. But then again, you sort of have the same challenge of, okay, well, now I've got this agent, I need to get it out there, I need people to know about it. So I think that whole process of me being that bridge will start again, but for a new reason. And again, that'll be another transition from a that's Hannah's identity, that's who she is, I don't want to lose that yet. And unlearning and decoupling from that to a new version and a new phase of what, what you become is what many people go through, right? They, when they get an applause, when we get an applause and we like that, we tend to be protective of it. And as it transitions, whether it's a process, whether it's a connection, whatever it may be, that evolution and reinvention of it is an interesting phase that we go through. So if we then have, you know, digital Hannah that is able to— people trust, they come in and they can navigate and find all the things that they want at the time that they want it in their modality that lands for them. Is that job done? Or what's after that? Hmm, very good question. I think that for me, that becomes— and I think I did speak about this before as well— for me, that becomes the entry point to learning. So, you know, the self-serve type access to learning, I think, is the way that you hook people in, because they're the ones telling you they don't have time, right? You say, you say, oh, what's the, you know, the learning you want to engage in? What is it that's on your mind? And they go, well, yeah, all these things, but I don't have any time. I can't do a 2-day training course. You go, okay, that's fine. But actually, if you say, well, hey, I've got this, you know, agent that can support you as and when you need it, and the more they do that, the more they realize actually there are some gaps in their, you know, either individual or collective team knowledge or skills that need addressing. They then know again who to come back to and how to then tailor it so that they can get the most out of it because You know, I think so. I am starting to see that a bit already. So, you know, some markets have told me the content that already exists is what they need. They don't— they just want the self-serve. They, they're kind of fine without, you know, without doing any training sessions. Whether other markets, you know, perhaps aren't quite as mature in their commercial thinking, might be saying actually we do, we do need some in-person, more immersive learning. So I think then my role becomes more about kind of consulting with them, with the local team's leadership, if you like, and helping them understand what it is they need and how they want that delivered, and also how they provide the right context. Because I actually don't— I shouldn't be the one training this. I'm not the expert. I can help pull together a package of materials, but it should be on them to set the right context, put the right meaning behind it, and then make sure that it's embedded into their ongoing activities as a result. So there's a piece of that, I think, which will take time. But then I also— I think a big part of, you know, adaptability is being able to let go of something and knowing when it is the right time. So I think that, that time will come. It will come. Um, and I, I'm okay with that. I think it— I think that, you know, this kind of thing needs to live beyond me. It can't just be all about whether I'm there or I'm not there. So, you know, I think, and that's exciting in a way. It is the sort of evolution through, you know, knowledge people versus systems that can function. And as that evolves from, okay, you mentioned before about this, all the knowledge is kind of out there, a lot of the learning's out there, you're now curating some of that, getting other creators in to curate within your themes and areas and then providing the Sherpa and guidance around it. I guess something you mentioned earlier was then, with all of that, how do we then make decisions? So if I have done this in the past, I've seen this new thing of a way in the future, and I've got my own idea that hasn't been tried yet, how do I make which decision to do? Turn left, right, go straight on, up or down in any given situation when all of those options are uncertain rather than, oh, well, I've got loads of data for there to say that's certain, so I pick that one or that one over there because this person's done it or this person said it. When they all look uncertain and I've got these variables, I guess that's where peers, mentorship, coaching come along to provide that sort of psychologically safe place to do the experimentation work. How are you thinking about coaching? Is that in your remit? Is that outside of your remit? Is that something Dentsu invests in? How does coaching line up? And I'd like two answers if possible. One, the lens within that role, and then step out into— I know you coach, uh, your, you know, as another side gig for you as a coach, perhaps thinking of it from those two lenses, Hannah. Yeah, so I mean, at Dentsu, it's very much something that is celebrated. It's done in various different kind of ways, I guess, across different, you know, there's existing talent pathways that have a coaching element to them. It's not so much something that I've seen or kind of had the opportunity to explore too much in my role just yet, but like I say, something that I'm very interested in. I think part of it is mindset, part of is is actually having some coaching, right? Um, so I like to think that I bring my coaching mindset into what I'm doing in a big way, but I think, you know, coaching is something that I would definitely want to invest in when the time is right. I think the challenge with it at somewhere like Dentsu is because each of the different teams and markets operate so differently, you would have to think about who that right person is in that local area for them to get the most out of it. I don't think we would kind of have a pool of coaches centrally, if you like, that we could just sort of deploy everywhere. I don't think that would work. So I think then it becomes a question of, do you actually then invest in training people in coaching skills to then help deliver that, you know, at scale? I think that's probably more the route I would look at. Um, and then from a, you know, from the other side of it, in my coaching business Um, you know, I, I basically coach women who are at pivotal career moments, so obviously a huge part of change in that and thinking about adaptability and strengths I mentioned earlier is the foundation of all my coaching. So for me, it's the— if you have a really core understanding of who you are, what you're good at, and how you— well, I guess how it looks when you're at your best you will be able to navigate almost anything. And that's what I think is really, really exciting. And I think something that, you know, obviously not just women but everybody should think about, because, you know, I mean, a lot of us have done, you know, a Myers-Briggs or some of those different personality assessments. I think— I don't, I don't know about you, but I always felt like it kind of came up as I was being somebody different in work and at home, and that always never really sat with me properly. But the strengths approach is more valuable to me because it's just who I am at my core. It doesn't matter what environment I'm in, I always come back to that, and that's how I adapt to that environment. But I'm not two different people whether I'm at home and when I'm at work. And I think that's why it's so, you know, exciting to me and why I love coaching from that perspective. And I think it's interesting, you know, listening to you describe that, are challenges that many organizations are facing, that if we value this modality and we think it's important right now, where we would have trained in management and what it means to manage people, line management, dealing with difficult conversations, running performance reviews, getting collaboration happen to then leadership. And we would train people on leadership. What are the values? What are the mindsets? How do we make decisions? And we'd have programs for those kind of things for advancing people's careers. In the phase that we find ourselves in now of exponential change, I'm wondering how much it might be replaced of the managing and leadership traditional roots of what that looks like that has elements of coaching, that is asking good questions, you know, allowing that person to, you know, come up with ideas, giving them the courage to see things they can't see, you know, challenging them in interesting ways that a coach does. Could be an interesting evolution of what you talked about. A leader for you 10 years ago looked different to what a leader looks like for you now because you've seen new things, you've learned new things, and you're looking for new things. I wonder what the managers and leaders of tomorrow, how much of them will look like as just being good coaching mindsets, good coaching to get projects done rather than managing processes, SOPs, and you know, looking for productivity and efficiency. We're now looking to maximise imagination and creation and those types of things. So yeah, how do you mobilise that internally? How do you build that in? Well, I thought I was an account manager. I thought I was this. Oh, and now you're asking me to be a coach. Is that me? Is it not me? What does that mean? A lot of that is mixed, mixed up, right? Along with a, Okay, well, if we aren't building it and we borrow or buy it, well, you might like one coach, someone else likes someone else. How do you then mobilize that? And I think that's given birth to a lot of these coach aggregators, right? BetterUp, AceUp, Ezra, that do that kind of thing to allow an organization to almost buy these credits to then say, right, you want one in Brazil to do this, fine. You want one over here and it's managed through the platform. So, what's your thoughts on a few things that I've shared there? Yeah, I mean, I would love a future where managers, and especially, I'm kind of going to focus in on middle management, especially because I think they're often the group that are under the most pressure from above and below. And oftentimes, as a, you know, middle kind of manager, you're having to do your own job to 100% capacity, if not more, and then be a manager as well. If we're in a world where there are efficiencies created by AI and automation and all other things, I know obviously that, you know, raises alarm bells for some and that there's just going to be less people needed. But I think actually if we could rethink it and say, well, instead of just cutting all of these people because we don't need that, you know, technical skill anymore or that process, um, you know, that specific process anymore, How about we give them more space to be better managers, to be coaches, to, you know, support their people through real-time problems, that kind of thing? Because that is something that, although AI coaches are a thing and becoming a bit more of a thing, that human interaction I don't think can ever be truly replaced. So I think the role of that manager could be a really, really exciting one. And you get so much more out of, you know, both people and technology if you had that right kind of central point. And they was, like I say, allowed and given that space to focus on more of some of those softer skills. Like I say, they're kind of the different types of leadership skills that are emerging that we are going to need more of in this future of work. I think— I don't know how realistic that is, but I said that would be the future that I would love to see. It'd be interesting, wouldn't it? Because it could almost be that AI helps augment some of those people in some of the coaching skills rather than, oh, go to an ICF, go to this coaching course to learn to be a coach. I don't really want to be one, but I'm now dealing with this project with these people that are now trying to manage 4 humans and 4 AI agents to get this job done. How, who's responsible for what? When it goes wrong, do we blame the agent or do we blame Peter? Do we clap for Sally when it's done really well and give her the reward? How does that all mix together? And how are we coaching around that new gameplay, right? And the same way, if we want it to be joyful and useful of how we show up, there's going to be a variety of those things, right? You have a nutritional coach, you have a strength and conditioning coach, you have a, you know, mindset coach, you have a, you know, variety of different ones for other games called sports. When we're doing the game that is work, that is, ah, I'm, you know, leading this account, I'm coming up with a creative solution for, you know, this marketing campaign or whatever it may be, is how are we moving all of those parts together in a way that brings joy, it's useful, doesn't burn people out, and allows us to contribute and be valued. Right. And it's, it's, it's beautifully simple and wildly complex at the same time, isn't it? Oh yeah. Yes, absolutely. So as we come up to the final bit, I've got two kind of areas I want to touch on. One is, we've talked a lot about what we'd like to happen. What do you see as some of the challenges in that future coming to bear? What are some of the obstacles that you see inside Dentoo that might stop that from happening? Yeah, I think it is resistance to the unknown, which, like I say, people generally don't like change because it does mean that they are going to have to rethink or do things very differently, which requires quite a lot of investment from them. And I think people almost see it play out in their heads of like, oh, if that happens, then I'm gonna have to do this, or I'm gonna have to go elsewhere or retrain in something, or— and they just kind of, they end spiraling, and then to the point where they go, you know what, I don't even want to engage at all. And I don't think we're often very good at storytelling it in the pos— in a positive way. So I think that is one of the challenges that I see. I think there obviously is just generally a lot of nervousness about the future and work and what that means for, you know, people, because we're already seeing high amounts of redundancies across every industry, every sector. And what do you do with a pool of of talent that, you know, is potentially their skill sets are out of date, or there's just way too many people applying for the, you know, what was 10 roles is now one. What do we do with that? You know, where does everybody go? I think that's really, really hard. So I think it is going to become increasingly hard to find the right people to do the right jobs, um, because there is just an influx of, you know, it's like I said, there's too much talent around and not enough jobs. And, you know, I a recruitment panel a few weeks ago, um, for a career community I'm part of. And, you know, we were saying, why is it applicants are getting ghosted? And they said, well, we just— the sheer amount of applications, we can't possibly give the same, you know, the amount of care to each application as we'd like. So that is something that really worries me. I think it's, you know, it's obviously an opportunity in a way, but how do we support that? And how do we get companies to think really differently about the types of talent they need because, you know, an old corporate company, for example, has operated a certain way for a long time. To tell them, actually, you know, the traditional career doesn't exist anymore, so what are you going to do about it? How are you going to embrace more contract or freelance work? And they suddenly panic and go, oh, I don't like that, that feels really risky, don't like that at all. I think that is something that is going to require a huge, huge shift and time that we don't have, to be honest. Yeah. And we've often— I've talked about this before on lots of episodes, this thought of, oh, loyalty and long-term, and we want to keep that knowledge and we want to retain talent, and attrition is a bad thing. And when we look at the model, say, in Hollywood, in the movie industry, where they collaborate thousands of people on a project just for that project and then go away again, yes, some of those will collaborate again, You know, you take some of the Avenger films, you know, 2,500, 3,000 people involved in one project that's created and done over a few years, and then they disband. They might come back in other projects, another piece. They're sort of the gig work kind of economy that works at scale rather than, no, you're in this and this is the job you do and We've got to get full utilisation of that part of that machine, of that person. And so, this sort of massive shift, what I heard from you, we need to get better at storytelling. Storytelling of these transitions for realising that there are going to be massive numbers of redundancies. How do we deal with right people, right jobs, employee mobility, reskilling and gig work, all of that kind of movement of things without losing our minds, without losing our heads. Yeah. And so if that's one of the, you know, key challenges you see, with the strengths of what you've got and what we described before, what are the things that you think is going to really ensure the sustainability of Dentsu and what you're working in there to overcome that challenge? I think it comes down to having the right leadership. I think it comes down to having the right advocacy at all levels as well, because I think this is something that, you know, my time in change management taught me, is that you can't rely on just having the right project team, you can't rely on just having the right leadership, you have to have advocacy at all levels. Because, um, like I said earlier, understanding people's why and their motivations is so key, and that looks very different person to person. And of course you can't do a bespoke, you know, change plan for every single person, but by, you know, you can by and large do it for most groups. And I think something that I think is really, really important when it comes to advocacy is don't just go to the people you know are going to be excited about this, because we are going to leave most people behind if we take that approach. So if you can get some of the people that are maybe the loudest and the naysayers and the people that have been very critical or negative in the past, it will be a bigger job. But if you can get them on board and you can get them to start promoting it organically, that's where you'll have the best success because those people are listened to for good or for bad. And yeah, if you can get them on side with you, I think that's, that's the way to go about it. And I think, you know, like we're saying earlier, that where there are going to be a lot of redundancies, like, we don't, we don't want to just leave it to chance that people are going to come along with us. You know, we can't leave that whole population behind. We can't just rely on those that are going to be excited about this. To move us forward, we'll miss a whole piece there. We'll kind of lack diversity and perspectives and thinking and, yeah. It sounds to me like this duality of the experience of the sort of learning, development, career shift and change mixed with change management and change success and putting those principles in play with psychology, with behaviour, with all of those sorts of things might get us some way towards where we wanna, where we wanna go. One of the questions I ask every guest, Hannah, at the, at the final stage is in and around curiosity. Hmm. And it's, when was the last time you did something for the first time? Hmm. And what was it? Oh, that's a really good question. I mean, it probably will have to be something related to the renovation we've got going on in our house because we, both me and my husband, are fundamentally cheapskates. But also really like DIY and just like exactly that, just figuring out ways to do things that we haven't tried before. So I'm trying to think the last thing I would have done and last thing I want to admit to because I probably shouldn't, but it probably is a little bit of electrical work. So, um, yes, putting in some very basic, you know, lighting and things like that. But, um, yeah, I, I love— I honestly love DIY. I like to think I'm quite handy anyway, but obviously we've all got YouTube and you know, Instagram tutorials and things like that. So I'm, yeah, I'm quite good at trying new things. I will say yes. DIY. Yeah. Playing with some new things. And actually what I found myself is I was using YouTube, various things to help me do something. Now, you know, even the other day we had our chicken coop door stopped working and I was like, no idea what it is. I'll take it and clean it all apart, clean all of the battery and all the electrics. And I realised afterwards, I should have taken a photo before I unplugged everything, because I have no idea where it goes back. Yep. I just took a couple of photos of it, put it into ChatGPT and said, where does everything go? And it said, you've got the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It needs to go on B1, B4, and, you know, to find a YouTube for something like that and find what it was versus take a pic, do a little voice note while I'm out there in the mud, help me fix this because I've taken it apart, don't know how to put it back together again. And it, and it shows you. Yeah. So that's pretty cool, I think, now. Yeah. Very good. All right. So if somebody wants to get in touch because they like what they've heard from you, want to have a conversation as a peer about some of the programmes you're running, or maybe even it's a female going through a career transition that says, you know what, I like the way Hannah thinks, I'd love to see if there's any capacity for coaching. How do people get in touch with you, Hannah? Yeah, I mean, just find me on LinkedIn. Um, so yeah, Hannah Louise Shelton on LinkedIn. I think it actually is just Hannah Shelton on LinkedIn. Um, but, um, yeah, just reach out honestly. I mean, I've posted quite a lot about the various things I do, so please just engage and interact with that, or just send me a message and I will be happy to chat in any capacity. Absolutely beautiful. It's been a pleasure to hang out on the show. Lovely to meet you and listen to the stories you shared on stage. Really got me thinking, and again today. So I hope our listeners have found some value, and I look forward to you having a great Christmas and see you in '26. Thank you very much. Hope you have a great Christmas too. Do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo-yo? Do you have the ability to unlearn in order to reskill, upskill, and breakthrough? Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ. Visit AQAI.io to gain your personalised report across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability. AQAI, transforming the way people, teams, and organisations navigate change. Thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding AQ. Please make sure you subscribe on your favourite podcast And we'd love to hear your feedback. Please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.