Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley & Mike Raven Feat. Jason Desentz - Chief Human Resource Officer

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to decodingaq. Helping you to learn the tools, mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever changing world.

Speaker B: Hi and welcome to the next episode of Decoding aq. In fact today is a very special one because we have two guests. Our uh, first guest in uh, Jason Desantes is the Chro at ah, Toshiba. And he has honed his craft turning underdog divisions into high performance powerhouses from Horizon Global to private equity turnarounds. And he finds himself at Toshiba heading up their North American operations and he's steering this century old brand through an AI driven transformation while championing people first growth. So an analytical coach at heart, he brings board level rigor to the shop floor, empathy to every culture that he rebuilds. Now. Welcome to the show Jason and thank you very much. We also have Mike Raven, my co founder. Many of you will know Mike, uh, some of our listeners will know of Mike but we've never had him on the show and we decided why don't we do a two host duo for Jason. So welcome Mike.

Speaker C: Thanks Ross. Excited to be here and see what unravels between us.

Speaker B: Well, I want to start it off with the fact that just in the preparation you two were talking about Oasis and Oasis line. So Jason, can you tell me more about that and what's going on with this Oasis thing?

Speaker D: Yeah, I'm really excited. I have the privilege and luxury uh, of my wife and I going to be doing a castle tour through Dublin, through Wales and through Scotland over the next couple of weeks here and on my stop I found out the band Oasis is back together and performing which is one of my favorite 90s bands from college era. And I'm going to be in Wales to see them perform for the first time together in a long time. And you know I, we were just talking like what's the best, you know, Oasis line. And I always say don't look back in anger. You know, as an HR professional, what better way than, than to kind of come start each day with that and always choose happiness is always what I like to say. So it's, I'm really excited to see them as part of the tour. I mean it's a full UK experience so I'm a lucky one. I feel like I'd add to that,

Speaker C: um, one of their songs, Stand By Me now, one of the uh, the best things you can do in, you know, in H R especially we're looking after our humans and, and actually I saw Oasis at the same place more than 20, definitely more than 24 years ago at this. Yeah, the same place that Jason, you're

Speaker A: going to see them.

Speaker C: So, uh,

Speaker B: very cool. Now we met unleash one of these, uh, conferences and events. There's many of them and it's super interesting to see what's the vibe, what are the conversations that are going on, what's happening, what's happening on stage and off stage. And often there is a difference in the conversations that evolve from there. From your experience having done many of these, what stood out to you unleash as something that perhaps you didn't expect? Jason?

Speaker D: You know, I find that a lot of, uh, people are looking for, I somewhat expected, but maybe not to this extent. The, uh, most people are just looking for guidance. Where do I start with AI? I mean we're getting inundated with, um, multiple solutions that, you know, on the surface all appear to be wonderful, as you all know. But at the same time I think people are struggling on where to start. Uh, where can I also gain the most value because I also have to show the ROI as a business perspective on getting the support from a financial means, from an organization. So I, I was really intrigued to see how many people actually were in the same almost lost mode. Like where do I start? And I, and I, I was in the same boat many, um, months ago until I started. I, uh, have the privilege of going to speaking at a couple of conferences and each time I'm there I kind of do like my own little private study and ask everybody kind of what's going on, what are your pain points, what's keeping you up at night? And those tend to be the themes that is the major theme, if you will. So I was a little surprised to see how many more people than, than it makes me feel like I'm not, I'm not alone, I guess, so to speak.

Speaker B: It's one of those common challenges, isn't it? You get these dazzling demos and with your feed you get the um, you know, perhaps the false impression that everybody's nailed it and doing it. And the reality really is the. And everyone's just figuring it out. We're all just learning as we go along. And it's often the, the headlines that scare and they stick. You know, we might have a headline of, oh, this was shared and then this happened in an LLM and now everybody still locks into that maybe a year later and the technology's moved on. And I think that's one of the challenges with early tech and what lands for people and when it changes, well, that's still a Sense of fear and maybe where do I start and where do I go is really challenging. Now for context, you're just coming up a year in Rome at Toshiba, you're

Speaker D: in July, year in July.

Speaker B: Yeah. Crazy in that context then as a, an incredible year, you know, on the world stage, uh, right. Uh, dealing with an organization that is across many borders. We look, you know, complex supply chains, all sorts of things that's been going on. What's been something that has startled you in that year that was different when you thought oh, day one, I've got this a couple of decades under me, I'll get this sorted. What has actually startled you in that year from that experience?

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean I wouldn't say it was a bad surprise. I guess I would have said um, I wasn't as certain how um, how decentralized um, some of our processes were. And I don't mean that in a negative way. I think that's just one what worked in the past that um, I had assumed maybe the main things were decentralized like performance management or one group might use a three point scale, one uses a five point scale and we're trying to harmonize. I also wasn't expecting to have multiple benefits programs from the US perspective which for as big as the Americas is, I would have expected more consolidation. So I think from that aspect was a bigger surprise than I had expected. However, it didn't change my approach because my approach always is to do a major audit walking in and I literally have section by section, whether it's just you know, compliance areas like policies, procedures, you know, all the different paperwork that we collect, making sure we're state compliance, federally compliant, global compliant and then you know, as you work that way down, I get into each major area, talent acquisition, total rewards. So I just followed my normal set of processes to do an audit when I walked in. So that is also another eye lifting thing is I found roughly almost 200 areas or points we need to do something. Now whether that's tweaking, whether that's major, but a lot of that. As you think about some of the major areas like performance management for example, I have to build consensus. So there's a lot of um, a lot more effort has to go into socializing ideas, getting that listen, learn and lead approach I always use and trying to listen to each of the areas, business units and why they set it up the way they set it. And, and here's what some proposals we're considering, what do they think about them?

Speaker B: Listen, learn and lead. You Know what I find so often in these conversations is it is littered with nuggets of wisdom that just fall out naturally for people with experience. And sometimes it really helps to slow down, slow down that process of what you just talked about, go in, do an audit, you know, that listen, learn and lead identifying 200 areas for potential action and then you've got the work to do of gaining consensus. So walk us through a little bit more of that. Was that the, you know, was that the Jason 90 day, 100 day plan to do that, to set up that that is, is there and then what have been the um, delights or challenges in that post era of audit of what's come next?

Speaker D: JASON yeah, that is my normal approach. I've learned that over the years and then I've owned my own consultant firm. So that has actually helped hone in on my skill set. It relates, you know, and I, I had been in house most of my career working for manufacturing firms, uh, also some other industries. But then when you went, when I went to consultancy, what you would normally get, let's say 90 days being an in house person, it's about 30 days as a consultant because time is money. So what that allowed me to do as a professional is really hone in on how can I make a process succinct, including an audit. How can I go and quickly identify what I think are key areas that, and at least identify them, uh, categorize them in such a way, high, medium, low, there's ways to think about that and then, and then decide as a group what makes sense to, if you were to take an impact effort matrix and say what's some low hanging fruit things we can get away now? And then, you know, what are some things that are going to take a little bit more effort, a little bit more planning, um, that would have a higher impact. Those are things that you have to, once you do an audit, identify everything. You have to categorize it. Um, I do that now usually in a 30, a 30 day timeframe. Uh, it's really not that hard. It can be very prescriptive. Once you get it in check, you just got to have access to all the data, right? Understanding where things are at, so I can ask the key questions and through that then these sets of processes come out. But that listen, learn and lead approach is happening throughout the whole process. And what that is, is when I come in too often, uh, when new people come in, they actually fail because they immediately start taking a negative approach to pointing out things that they think that they don't like or they've seen better in other organizations. And that's just not an approach that will work very well. In fact you will start to get detractors and you'll start to get people start to pull away and not really tell you anything. So in order to get people to kind of influence them to build the trust, you actually should be actively listening. That's that first part. And trying to ask key questions about the process. Well tell me a little bit more about the process. Will tell me more. And then you start to lead into the learn part. Well, help me understand why you implemented it that way. Was that because at the time the marketplace was X and now the marketplace is why would you change if you could? Uh, what would that look like? And it really gets people to start going, wow, they actually listen to what I said. He's asking key questions about how I made those decisions. Now you start to build the trust and you get that buy in from that individual. And then even when you start to lead, this is the last part sometimes people fail on too is don't go in with a commanding style. Be like well you should have done this and here's how to fix that. I don't even do that. What I do is I come in and I say, well have you considered, have you thought of. That's interesting. When you did this, did you also think of this? And, and that gets them to really it's, it's the, that's the change management function. Uh, for those of you who have ever done odoe, I, I happen to be uh, organizational development, uh, organizational effectiveness, uh role one time in the autos. And the whole great thing about that job is you ask questions and you get people to figure it out for themselves because you, you're really, it's like leading the witness. You kind of box them in and you're like. And then like, and then they have that aha moment and that is buy in. And once people have buy in and know that there's a sense of urgency for change, guess what? You can then start the change process. You can start to say okay great, let's talk about options. What you know, what do you think if you had to redo it all over again like a startup, how would you start it? So that is really um, it's not just me coming up and giving them the solutions. It's actually holding that creativity and some of that inner workings that they know they've used this process. They know some of the pain points if they were king or Queen for a day. They would do X. Well, let's let it. Let's hear them out. I'd like to understand what that is, because nine times out of 10, they already have the answer. I just need to pull it out of them. Yeah.

Speaker C: Can I jump in? Because that, that really resonates and what I hear is this sense of, um, rewriting the story and encouraging them to rewrite the story. So what's the reframe? What's the reframe that might be available? Um, and encouraging that because, well, we know what happens when someone's truly involved versus being told. So you can tell someone or you can involve them. And I'd like to go to the middle part that you mentioned there, Jason. Um, the learning. And I'd love to get your thoughts and insight and experience on what about unlearning? Um, how powerful is that? Um, from, uh, my own reframe for your learning? Um, yeah. What do we need to do? What are you seeing in your teams? Maybe in your own HR department? Um, where is unlearning, um, happening? Where is it not happening? Where it needs to and how important might it be?

Speaker D: It's. It's funny. It's. I, it's. I like your term better. I call it unprogramming. Um, because we're all programmed in such a way, because we were brought up in such a way. I am constantly unprogramming. In fact, even just when I got to Toshiba, just, I've been, you know, I feel confident in my abilities, I feel my learnings. I, I've seen a lot, I've done a lot, but I'm always still unprogramming at times. And for example, when I got to Toshiba, you know, I'm such. I, uh, come from such a rigor, lean, six Sigma environment which, which can be a little bit, um, less employee centric. Right. And more business centric in such a way that sometimes cost overtakes value of employees. So an example I use is Toshiba here is. Treats its employees so well, not just internally, but even externally in the communities. They treat the communities well. And when, when, uh, I always have a philosophy. Love them on the way in, love them on the way out. And a lot of companies don't think about that last part. When, even when you offboard somebody, you should take the same care that you did on the onboarding that you do on the off boarding. Because there's that net promoter, right? When people leave an organization, they talk about their experiences of working there and toshiba does an amazing job at this. They've always, they've always taken care of their employees. And my own, um, programming where I might be a little bit more lean on maybe say some of those practices on the off boarding, whether it's compensation on the way out or whatever, Toshiba doesn't care about that. They care more about that employee feeling. So that was a little unprogramming for me to learn. And I'm like, okay, okay. And I think leaders that, uh, and I'm not patting myself on the back, but what I do appreciate that I've learned over the years is that I can pivot, that I can even relearn, even after all my experiences, after all my stuff. And I think that says a lot and it shows a lot to my team that if I can do it, they can do it. So then if they see me doing it, then the next step is I challenge them, right? I need to unprogram them from the way they thought, the way they were taught. And they just saw me, this literally happened and they're like, okay, Jason. Literally one of my employees in 101 said, well, I saw that you did it, so therefore, wow, you know what, that makes sense. Maybe I should try that unprogramming. So it's important that one, we, we uh, practice what we preach. And then also once people see that, I think it's that much more stronger on the actual effectiveness of change for others.

Speaker B: That's helpful. And I think one of the challenges, because unlearning is one of our sub dimensions, right, that we have in our model and what we've recognized and noticed is the difference between unlearning, um, something that is aligned or misaligned to your value base is very different. So you just described things there that actually, yeah, I can unlearn, I can unprogram, um, in your language, when actually it still is aligned to my values and actually maybe my inner values that have been hidden under a shadow for some time. You talked about, you know, off board, wouldn't that be great? That's a humane thing. And actually I might have become more lean and more hard nosed because of experience, not because of my maybe core of values. So when that showed up, I was like, hey, that's easy to unlearn when it's something that has been successful, something that has been part of my identity, has given me the results of what I've achieved today. And you're now asked to unlearn that process, that behavior, that style, that maybe culture as you move from one country to another country, different cultures of what's appropriate or not. Have you recognized a difference of where unlearning isn't as easy and what are you doing about that when it's challenging?

Speaker D: There's two things right now I can actually. That's a great question, by the way. I really, really like the way you, uh, set that up, because it is when it goes against your values. So I would partially say some of my values as it relates to, um, back in the day when I first started prob you guys as well. I mean, most companies did what we call, like the career. We're looking for the career employee, right? 30 years. We want people to stay with us for 30 years. We want the loyalty. I mean, Japan still has the lifetime employments, although it's kind of weighing a little bit. But that was kind of the way we all came into the workforce. So when we saw people. When I was looking at resumes as an HR professional, I said, I saw someone rotate every two or three years. That was actually a negative, right? So that, to my value system, what I was, what I felt was as well, they're not loyal, right? So when someone's not loyal, you almost have a negative connotation on the individual. So I built up that negative connotation. So that became part of my value system, right. When I saw that. And then as fast forward to today's date, you, on average, you get people only staying three to four years, if you're lucky on a job, right? So to me, that was originally a core value of mine as I had learned it, and then I had to pivot. And now I, I'm, um, I, I see the value in people rotating actually more often. And just the opposite of what I originally was learned. Uh, what, what I learned originally, which was, you know, that it isn't anything to do with loyalty, because in fact, in some cases, some of the big companies that were. I became a weapon in some cases as HR, to let people go who had maybe 39 years of service and we couldn't get them to the 40th year, right? So loyalty has actually kind of gone down in organizations because of the actions they took. So along the way, my value systems have shifted in that regard for that. And then also education is a new one that's coming up, right? Used to be you had to have a degree for everything. Otherwise that was price of entry. I am of the understanding now that. And I've got all kinds of degrees. I got a master's, I got a doctorate. Does it matter to me. It's like uh, would I hire someone who's out of high school or who high school plus experience. And the answer is actually yes. Ten years ago you'd ask Jason. Ten years ago would have been well no, you need to go through the rigor of everybody else. And this is why we go to college. And, and that was a value proposition for me because what it said was, is um, not loyalty then it showed me endurance. You were willing to go through a four year institution, go through all the rigor of going to school, learning and then coming out of school, then finding a degree, you know, getting a degree. I thought people were cheating the system when they went right to work. Now I don't feel that way anymore. Right. I actually think people get more value out of working first. It's so it's, it's to me I've done a complete 180 on those two main topics as a belief system and I'm, I'm better for it. I, I feel like, and prepared more for today's groupings than maybe uh, some others in my feet.

Speaker C: Yeah Jason, I remember when you were on the panel unleash, you were talking um, around this subject about the, the tenure you know and the different generation challenges that are coming in. So um, you know you mentioned ah, institutional knowledge is a risk as you know your uh, 30, 40, 50 year ah, um people uh come into retirement. So maybe you could talk to how are you preparing some of your um, younger new generational especially HR people in your team to be more change confident, to be more agile rather than fragile, that sort of thing.

Speaker D: So we're instituting a couple of different things because I think it's a multi prong approach in my personal opinion. Uh, it's not just a simple one solution, it really is. So we have to first create stronger connections externally to organizations where we can have a talent pool ready and able. And it's not necessarily going to be four year universities. My challenge is the manufacturing space is to get laborers who are willing to come into a factory and work the line on different products and services that we offer. And that's a challenge from the uh, the Gen Z because Gen Gen X or Gen Millennials were kind of the last generation where that was still acceptable manufacturing roles. Gen X, which we are, which was obviously unanswered. Our generation actually told the Gen Zs, which my children are Gen Z's, you don't need to go into a factory because you're going to get laid off or you know because that's what manufacturing is leaving and it's going to low cost country sourcing. And why do I know that? Because I sent them there as an HR professional. I had factories in, you know, Mexico or South Africa, Thailand, all the low Vietnam, all those low uh, cost country sourcing areas. But now we have this influx over the last about five years and even more so now with the Trump administration with its coming back into the States. I got to imagine as well in the UK and in other areas as well that that's kind of a, people are starting to want to absorb it for many different reasons. Whether it's security reasons, whether it's supply chain reasons, all different kinds of reasons to absorb it back in. We have to, we have to go back out and figure out a way we can get talent that are willing to come in. And Gen Z is not always willing. So that's why I'm going out to build partnerships with trade schools. One, two. How can we create incentive programs and rotational programs that not only once they're here, we can keep them here and we can train them and we can show them they can have a career at Toshiba or wherever they're going that they feel, um, that they actually create value. Because that generation wants to know, um, how do I impact the organization? And it's so hard to do it at such a, maybe an hourly role or in the factory role. But I think that's a valid question that people all want purpose, so what's my purpose? And I think we have to reframe the question of what is someone's purpose when they come here. And I think we start to promote the skills that they're going to learn. I also think that we should promote the availability of moving around the organization that the opportunity is really up to them once they're here and we'll provide those uh, opportunities and we actually will craft programs that can help develop them with those opportunities. But one other thing is we should be setting this up so we're teaching them to lead themselves. And that's the other approach is how do we start to change the mindset of you're just going to get it versus you have to earn it. And that's a little bit of a difference. I think people felt if I got my degree, therefore I should get it became an if then else statement. Like an it. Like that's not it anymore. Like we have to teach them that they yeah, you got a degree that's great, or yeah, you've got a trade that's great but now you got to go earn it. You got to go show that you can do the skills you gotta so that if you are ready we can take you to that next level. But again, so it is a multi prong approach in my opinion. And I think companies really need to think about that strategy and um, m what works for them because it will be a little different depending upon the organization and depending upon the industry.

Speaker C: M that's really smart. And I heard you touch on um, both that balance between um, earning and entitlement and, and also you touched on mentoring there. What's your, what's your experience of mentoring and perhaps coaching as well and its value at ah, different, uh, in different parts of the organization in different levels of the organization?

Speaker D: Yeah, I coach from the top floor to the shop floor. I do, I love to. It doesn't matter if someone needs any assistance. I try to, you know, make myself available. Part of the one thing that I try to do when I'm coaching individuals is really um, getting them to understand kind of what their own brand, like how are they perceived or how do they think they're perceived in the world. And, and when I coach people I, I say basically, you know, you get what you give. So I, I always try to ask people how are you giving back or how as you go into the workplace and think about, you know, what you bring to the table, how are you treating people? Are you truly developing individuals? Are you really? Um, I always say to all of my direct reports, I will support you if you do great things. I will support you if you do bad things. Now hopefully you do more great things, but please know I have your back. Right? The word support is super important from a leadership perspective to share with your individual, your coaching, knowing that you'll support them no matter what. I do expect people to make mistakes. I say this to people all the time. It's what you do after though that defines you. Do you get up? Do you brush yourself off? Okay, that approach didn't work. Let me try something else. Or do you give up? Or do you, you know, um, do you frankly just. Just kind of get little agitated or you know, things like that? It's, it's really making a mistake is how we learn, it's how we innovate, it's how we iterate. Right? You got to make a mistake. Uh, but again it's what you do after that defines you. And I, I find too many people sometimes either give up or they get so frustrated that they start to turn so toxic in an organization that it, it actually is detrimental at that point and it's unfortunate. But if you can have that opportunity where it's a safe environment to take risks, certain risks, and make mistakes, but then learn from those mistakes and even be better, more people thrive in those types of organizations than those that get penalized. And I don't like to do a penalized organization. That's not the way to innovate or iterate.

Speaker B: Uh, and it's critical to have the support of somebody, whether in the formal approach of a coach or mentor or just good people around you, your peers around you, that, that culture nature of allowing it to happen. There's often a huge disconnect between the voice of support on failure and the benefit structure of rewarding of what we reward. We reward quite often in business the end result and the outcome, not necessarily the output of the learnings and those things. So I think that's another challenge, um, there. But there was something that I wanted to pick up on Jason, in terms of when you were talking about the view of generations and how do you get partnerships to ensure that you've got talent pipeline in a manufacturing organization and factories, what is your opinion personally and maybe of Toshiba around humanoid robots? So what we have seen over various phases is that the rote and repetitive gets replaced by a machine. So whatever that machine is, and we've seen it a lot, right, Whether that's in agriculture or in manufacturing and for heavy and difficult things, we've created these machines that build consistency and high volume throughput. And what we're using is a lot of humans in that same aspect, right? To do the rote and repetitive things and the design of the processes and workflows is very much for a bipedal human to do those things. So a lot of these companies, you know, Tesla, figure one, there's about 20 of them at the moment that are predicting we'll have more humanoid robots by 2030 than humans. Now that in one aspect is so unimaginable, um, unbelievable. In the same way when you looked at um, you know, back to the future, we'll have flying cars by this point point, right. So there's always this gap between vision and reality. But what is your thinking, what's your approach of where do humanoid robots specifically come into manufacturing, supply chain production work and the talent uh, org design that you're thinking about, Jason, you know, I

Speaker D: mean it's not the first time the robotic question, but I mean it's more real than it probably ever has been. Right. And we grew up in an era, uh, you all probably remember automation and stuff and people thought all that all the factory workers would be gone, right? Wasn't the case. Did, did some get eliminated? Sure, because you didn't need that many manual. However, it also opened up new jobs, right. For technicians and you know, programmers and all different kinds of areas. So it actually in some cases almost offset with different types of jobs. So it's not, it wasn't a one for one, but it was pretty close. Right. If you think about it, even if, let's say robots comes around, um, I think as a society we're used to pivoting. Think of the automobile, and I come from the automobile industry. There used to be horses everywhere. How, how. Not just the horse that we put out of business. We put stables out of business, we put maybe breeders out of business. We put so many different industries and people out of business who dealt with the horse because the automobile replaced the horse. So uh, I guess in my mind I could maybe think robots in the same light. Right. If we had robots next to us, what then is that replacing? That's, that's really what we need to figure out. And then what is it? What is it creating that's new. I also think from my perspective, we will turn more from a transactional society to more of an advising society, which means we need to know how to interpret things differently. And our jobs would be more, um, I would say helping people figure out what am I looking at and how does that impact my business in a positive, negative sense and then how should I react to that. But again, we need to understand how to think analytically about that. That's a new skill set maybe than just turning a wrench. Right. So from that regard, I think we need our uh, learnings need to shift into such a way that we're preparing ourselves and we're kind of in here at Toshiba trying to get AI ready. We've launched Toshiba University and part of our key learnings is going to be just the basics of AI. What is it? What's it, you know, how did it progress? And then what are its typical applications for today? How can it potentially be used tomorrow? By getting people ready in the mindset might help us in the long run. And this transition, if it were to go to. I, I personally don't believe there'll be more robots. I, I mean I watched the Jetsons when I was a kid and I just, I thought by now too, I mean, I, from back to future, I would have just taken the flying skateboard versus the car. I wish that was still the hoverboard, but that is somewhat around, but it's not the real thing, let's be honest. But with that being said, I, I do believe that there'll be some shift, but I think we need to shift our mindset in the way in which we think about this and how we approach it. That is more critical. And I don't know how many people are really thinking about that, to be honest with you.

Speaker C: Yeah, you've got me thinking about, you know, Back to the Future, one of my favorite films.

Speaker D: Um, one of my favorite films too.

Speaker C: The Jetsons. I've not seen that for a while. Um, and yeah, I think the, you know, uh, two things here I'd love to kind of follow up on. One is the university that you've set up. So the Toshiba University. Love to hear a bit more about what's the. What's the ambition there? What is it? What does it change the needle on? What's, you know, if you could fast forward, you know, one or two years, what impact has it had? What is it doing for your people from a very human perspective? And, and actually this, this piece around, um, you know, a new world with so much more AI and automation and, you know, you, you've shared that this is actually, you know, the university is a lot about adapting to AI and adopting AI. What, what. What are the most powerful the human skills, uniquely, um, human skills that you, um, either are investing in Intoshiba, or you recognize you need to invest in more.

Speaker D: Question. You know, part, part of one of the things. First of all, we, we need to make sure we have people who know how to, um, deal with ambiguity and pivot. Um, if we have static thinking and folks that are constant resistant to change. And the word change is overused in many different ways. Right? I mean, I think my favorite T shirt I ever saw is I love change. You go first. Um, and. But, but from my perspective, I really feel if one, we need to make sure. What type of people do we have internally? Do we have people who can deal with ambiguity? We need to start measuring more, I think, because change is going to be ever constant, even more and faster in AI. Also, can people understand how to take AI and its application into process? So meaning we also then need people who understand process configuration. You understand how to do swim lanes. Do you understand how, you know, step one, step two, do you understand timelines? Do you understand. So maybe more project management skill sets need to be required. So I may need to upskill on that, but then also, okay, then it's application, how do I implement it? So then I need to um, I may need to really partner more with my IT group, even more so than I ever have in the past to say, hey listen, here's, here's a process because I, my mindset's process, I'm being agile because dealing with ambiguity. And I want to take this service or AI function and I want to now take my process and throw it through that help me. So I think there's going to be this little bit more of a stronger partnership in my opinion with uh, IT more that we need to develop. And I think IT organizations probably need to set up a different, different way to think about the project management organization, the pmo, project management office. So I think that is going to be. You might need two of them, right? Might need one to help with the interpretation and the application and they need one help with the implementation. So I really think that that might be something that might change and shift from an organizational standpoint. But it also starts with internal competencies. We need to start evaluating a current set of employees. Do they have the new competencies that are going to be required for this type of change? Again, Jason's opinion, I don't think there's anything else scientific.

Speaker B: You set up this initiative to help move that forward, right? In dealing with ambiguity in able. Even when you come back to where you started of this, you know, listen, learn, lead as a roadmap of how to build trust and how to influence people.

Speaker A: People.

Speaker B: That was a playbook around that. So who gets access to it? What's the rollout? What's the structure? Because I imagine many other organizations are either needing that guidance. What do we do? How are you doing it? What uh, what they're already doing. Try and validate it and learn off each other. So give us a little bit more detail of is it cohort based? Is it curriculum? Is it flexible? Is it everybody? Is it select? Give us some details.

Speaker D: It's going to be for all employees, including the hourly employees and their ability. They could use it on their phones. We did partner with an lms. We have Adobe lms. Um, and we, we partner with Open, um, no, Open Sesame, which is. Has a grouping of course catalogs. But also with our lms we can create our own internal courses that we can also institute and put in place, which is also the benefit. So it covers everything from compliance training. Um, we're heavy in the ISO world so we have to make sure our compliance training is done. That is all done through the university. So all of standard training, legal training, compliance, uh, training will also be a part of that. HR training will also be a part of it. But then we start to institute the other areas where we AI capability. So there's a lot of curriculum out there, uh, what I, what I like to call micro learning. So there's really quick, fast micro learnings that people can start to um, do everything from management training, Microsoft Office training to etiquette to now AI and how do I think about it? So it's, it's really a one, it's made to be a one stop shop for curriculum building and we can then customize it eventually to complement our talent management process so we can create individual development plans and maybe create custom curriculums for an individual to develop. And but I again it all starts with me taking an inventory of what do I have as an individ individuals in my organization. What is their competency level in these, you know, high, medium, low if you will. On if we're talking about adaptability, ambiguity, where is their skill set at? If it's low then I need to provide them some type of maybe learnings on how they can learn how to be a little bit more um, open to change and open to different things or expose them to areas that they haven't been exposed to like crucial conversations. If they're a manager and they're a new manager. And how do I have to have a crucial conversation with someone? Well we have some quick trainings you can take. Just no different than when I need to fix something in the house. Where do I go? YouTube. So I kind of want to be able to have a one stop shop if people need to learn something. But also I also recognize learning has to be in the same environment people are used to learning in. Again, generational differences is really important here. So we kind of made sure that whatever platform we chose had different types of learning. We have longer learnings, we have custom learnings, we have micro learnings because we recognize that the younger generation again learns in micro chunks. Um, and we have to be careful that we provide the right curriculum for the right groupings.

Speaker B: And that initiative that you're talking about, I mean that is an ongoing part of the culture, right? That is that you've got compliance and then what's new AI or other pieces and then you've got the fluidity of the speed of learning, you know, mental m flexibility, all sorts of other aspects that are crucial uh, factors to end performance. As we come to the sort of twilight period of the Podcast I'd like us to think about. It's December, so we got the second half of this year and, um, we're having a conversation and you say that was the best year ever for this year. What will have happened for you to be able to say that? What initiatives landed, what did you stop doing? Very practically for you, in your role as, uh, Chro in Toshiba, that was the best year ever. You got six months left. What happened? What landed? What did you stop doing? Jason?

Speaker D: Yeah, for me, like, so what does success look like? Right, um, from my perspective, given all the initiatives to me, um, the relearning from my team structurally, on how they're working together now more so than they ever have been when I first came in. Not always my team members talk to each other, which was shocking to me. So to me, success would look like. I just sit back now and I watch my own team come up with the ideas and not always using me maybe as a crutch or to kick things off. That is success to me because it starts with me teaching others how to do this for themselves versus, you know, again, going back to when I was an od OE person. Change management again. My job isn't for me to give the answers. My job is to get them to figure it out for themselves. Right? So success looks like once I start to get employee and manager self service, if I can get that started, that is the huge success for me. That is a huge success. And I think. But remember, I have to provide the tools for people to be able to do that. So really this is me setting up what, like, what am I. What kind of. How like it's like buying a house and you're going to flip it, right? What did I buy? I got to go in and get an inspector. I got to look at all the damage maybe in some of the areas and what. But also I always take an appreciative inquiry approach, which what's the. What are the positive things that are about this house? Or what are the positive things that we have building blocks here at Toshiba? And then I started, okay, now what, uh, what are the things I need to fix and what are the major things I need to fix first? And if I fix those major things and I've basically acknowledged the positive things along the way, then success looks like, wow, our house is starting to look really good. I don't expect it to be fully ready to sell, resell. I fully expect this is to be, uh, a little bit more of a journey. However, one thing Success to me means we didn't stop. We, we still kept moving forward. Even though I know we'll have challenges. There's a ride at Disney, if you've ever been. It doesn't matter which Disney park, they all have the same ride. It's a car where your kids can get and drive it, and it's actually like it goes, but there's a track in the middle, right? So the car can veered and it bounces back and then it bounces, right? So really they don't hit the walls. But guess what? They always still move forward. My job is to be that track in the middle. So I want my teams to go towards the edge. I want them to push. I always say I'd rather have, I'd rather pull back on a Mustang than push a camel. I want my teams to go, you know, be a little bit more aggressive, be a little bit more out there, but I may have to pull them back at times, right? But that's okay. But guess what? We never stopped moving forward. To me, that's what success looks like.

Speaker C: So we've painted that picture of success. And you've mentioned some things, you know, principles, your, your systems, uh, being there as, um, you know, really supported, supportive leader, um, having a proactive team. So they're coming up with the solutions themselves. You know, reminds me of, um, you know, if you ask someone to start brushing their teeth with, with the opposite hand, um, they'll soon go back to their normal hand because it's still there. So if something is still there and this kind of comes back to unlearning again, we, we default to what we know, right? You talk about the programming. We're by the age of 35, we're walking, talking program. You know, we've, you know, we've got about 5 to 10% of available, um, consciousness, let's call it, to say, well, I want to change. So decoding that and uncoding that is really challenging. And it requires, um, support from the people around you. And I think you've touched on that a lot. And, um, the environment to make that happen. You know, something we measure AQAI is the, is the environment makes us quite unique in what we're measuring. So what does it feel like? How stressful is it? How adaptable is that environment? And um, if there are kind of, if you talk about fixing on the, you know, fixing the impact effort which you spoke to, what are the, what are the top three. What are the top three, um, you know, fixes that you want to put in place when we fast forward.

Speaker D: Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily refer to it as a fix rather than what do I want to solidify? Right. What do I want us all to solidify as a, as a culture? Um, I want to reaffirm our values. Toshiba has great values. Create together being one of them. And I want to reaffirm that value if we are going to create together. What does that mean? That means we need to know how to compromise. It means we know how to be agile. It means we know how to have solutions, not just problems. So that is that autonomy that I try to give to people. So, um, for me, that is definitely one of them is solidifying our value base and affirming as a group that we all agree on that value base. And we also agree that we, we have a safe space for open feedback along the way to make sure, to your point, that we keep that unlearning or, uh, you know, in the same spot. And also, I, I always say I really can't change people. To your point about, you know, once you're set in your kind of your ways, you'll kind of go back. But what it can make you is aware. And when you are aware, when you take that toothbrush to the right hand, as soon as you're aware, you're like, oh man, you got to go back to the lab. But guess what? You made awareness versus letting it sit it. And um, I, uh, I still have my own set of quarks and sometimes I'm a very passionate guy, and sometimes I can come across as aggressiveness. And I've been told that and I, you know, but. But now that I know that and when I can feel it and I'm always constantly like watching like, you know, kind of like a, A meter, right? Like, I kind of watch people and when I see that like, oh man, he looks like he's getting pissed. I, I'm like, wait a minute, let me check myself. I just want to point out really quickly that I, I'm not angry. I'm just very passionate right now about this topic. It's the opportunity to de escalate. And to me, that is super important. And I want others to have that same opportunity. So I create that safe space for that as well. Um, for them to kind of have a quark and then be aware of their quark, recognize it, de escalate it, and then that's great. That is, that is better than any change you can do is once you're aware of some of those things and then you de escalate and then you can actually continue the conversation again. Never stop moving forward.

Speaker B: We're getting tight on time and there's a point I want to pick up on before we finish out with this final couple of questions. The point I want to pick up on is what you described there. I imagine every listener felt, uh, it felt it inside of. Yes, yes, yes. That's something that I would champion, I'd support. How do you get buy into that? What's the roi? Where is it hitting for the cfo? Where's it hitting for those things? When you come up with these things and go, yeah, I want to reconnect to our values. I want to do these things. And the CEO and CFO says to, well, that's lovely, Jason, but, uh, how much is it going to cost? And you know, when am I going to see something at the other end? How do you deal with that? Of these great initiatives, they need momentum and they need often hard data, hard roi, not just feelings. And I think that's a big challenge. A lot of HR has, is growing up in how it, um, puts forward business cases in a grown up way.

Speaker D: And this is probably where I differ from many HR people. This is why I have my master's in business. It's why I have my doctorate in business. I know how to speak their language. And you're right, too many HR people are constantly, uh, focused on the feeling aspect, which is absolutely the right thing to focus on. But you also have to realize we work at a business, we, we have to understand ebitda, you have to understand Cash Flow Op Inc, you know, inventory, if you're in, if you're in manufacturing, cogs, if you're, if you're trying to understand, you know, cost of goods sold. You need to educate yourself and be a business person who happens to do hr because guess what? You still need to influence. And I talk about influence a lot and building trust fast. And the best way I build trust with the CFO is, you know, I've had many CFOs go, there's no such thing as ROI and HR. And I'm like, fine, I'll create a new term ROR return on, um, rewards. And then they just kind of laugh at me and go, you're crazy. And I'm like, of course I am. Because the reality of it is, just watch and let me prove it to you. But I also have the data to back it up. And I do have to have financial data. I have to have the, you know, the cost benefit analysis And I'm, I'm asked that all the time. So I also include that usually as part of any proposal I have is here's the benefit on the financial side. In some cases, it might not always be direct cost, you know, advantage. It could be, you know, time, it could be effort. It could be things that, uh, you know, efficiency, that there are costs to that. Now is it. It's not always as easy to, to quantify. It is to qualify. So, um, that's kind of the approach I take. I encourage every HR person. You know, I, I think it's great we all get these certificates in hr, but you should probably learn more about business and, and at this point in your career. Career and less about being the feeling side. Go be a business person. Go take some business classes. Um, and the more you understand, guess what, you'll have a, you'll have a seat at the table. I get asked, you know, even I, I speak in EBITDA now. It's, it's, it's, it's not hard, everybody, it's, it's, it's part of life. But so compliment it with your feelings side of the HR side and you'll go that much farther. Promise you.

Speaker B: I think it's a huge strategic opportunity for hr. Ah, that is now a critical lever because all, all of these tech enablements, it requires human adaptation, human decisions, human choices. To turn left, turn right. Say yes, say no to these various initiatives as we come. The question I ask everyone, Jason at the end, is linked to a topic we've talked a lot about today, actually, in terms of unlearning and curiosity and those sorts of things. And it goes like this. When was the last time you did something for the first time? And what was it?

Speaker D: Okay, so. Wow, that, that, that didn't take long to come to my head, actually. So, um, so my younger son is an actor. And, um, he was doing a student film. And, uh, I went with him. This was, uh, two summers ago. This was the last time I'd done something first. So it was two summers ago. And, um, he, I took him to the audition and I, at this cafe, he was reading the script to kind of read with the producer to see if they wanted him. And then I happened to be his dad because he was still in high school. And I, I had, he goes, well, can you reach, sir, the other side so your son can go back and forth? I said, sure. So by me reading, they asked me to be in the short film too. So I'm not an actor. I, uh, am actually In a short film with my son, who is studying to be in film and tv. So he has acted with his father. I was the bad guy, he was the good guy. Uh, so it's really kind of interesting. Uh, and I think it's a once in a lifetime opportunity as a father to do something with your children. And I've never. It was the first time I've ever done that and I'm, I'm a terrible actor, but I, I was able to perform with my son and that. That just meant so much. So that was that. That answers your question. And that's, uh, I never really thought. And we did like a little mini movie premiere. It was really cute. They did was in Detroit and we kind of had a little red carpet. It was just such a lovely event. My son was on the poster. It was just a fun little local film, but it was, it was a lot of fun to do and I would do it again if my son asked me to.

Speaker B: Nice. Thank you for that. I'm gonna let Mike as the co host guest close us out on today's show. So thanks Jason. And Mike, do you want to thank me?

Speaker C: Okay. Well, thanks, Ross. And yeah, thanks, Jason. Uh, I've loved this and, and that last part really resonated. You know, I'm. This evening, I'm, um, uh, introducing a new kind of men's circle to support teenage boys, a lot of fathers and boys, um, in my local area. So bringing people together to form closer relationships to help everyone, no matter what age, navigate quite a different world that we're in now. So, um, yeah, that touched my heart. So thank you. Um, so I will, um, ask you just to share two really quick things, Jason, with our, the listeners. So first is, and this is something that I ask people when I meet them for the first time. So to, to this point, which is if you could whisper, uh, one short sentence into all of the people in your organization, knowing that they would believe it to be true, what would you, what would you say to them? And then the second part is, if people want to get in touch with you, something really resonated with them. How, how's, you know, what's the best way for them to do that?

Speaker D: Oh, wow. I, I think advice I give often. And I, I actually don't whisper it, but I will, I will, I'll play along. Um, I, I tell people all the time what, you know, people ask me how I got here and, and how. My. How. How can I, you know, how did I become a chro? And I think the Biggest pivotal thing to me, m. That I learned along the way because my younger son, who I just talked to you about, had a heart transplant. And I had. I was a high potential at the time at Chrysler. And, um, I had to change the way I thought. I had to change certain times where I couldn't be the high potential. I had to go to the hospital. But the best advice that I tell people all the time that is that I learned from that experience and has made my career so successful is do not sweat the small stuff. Figure out a way we all deal with stuff and we can get mired down in the small stuff every day that gets us so worked up. Just don't sweat it. Because guess what? Bigger things are on the horizon, and you need to be. Your mind needs to be ready for that. So I learned that early on when I was going through that process, and it was my second son, not even the first. So, um, I will tell people that all the time, as often as I can. Please do not sweat the small stuff. And you'll be better off for it, right?

Speaker C: Don't sweat the small stuff. We'll take that. And, um, so if people want to get in touch with you, Jason, what's the best way?

Speaker D: Yes, thank you. Sorry for that. Uh, yeah, so look me up on LinkedIn. That's the best approach. Um, I try to be a ghost minus all these podcasts that you probably see me on. I'm very fortunate and blessed to have those opportunities. And just like I am today, I'm grateful to be on the show. Thank you again for inviting me. Um, but absolutely, please look me up on LinkedIn. It's the best approach and I'm really good about checking. So, uh, if you have anything, I'd love to be able to help if I can. And, um, yeah, that's probably the best way to get a hold of me.

Speaker B: Awesome. Thanks, Mike. Thanks, Jason. What a great show.

Speaker A: Do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo yo? Do you have the ability to unlearn in order to reskill, upskill, and break through? Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ. Visit AQAI IO to gain your personalized report across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability. AQAI Transformation. The way people, teams and organizations navigate change. Thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding aq. Please make sure you subscribe on your favorite podcast directory, and we'd love to hear your feedback, please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.