Ep.182 Why the Ocean is the Billion-Dollar Market No One’s Watching | Serena Nguyen on Blue Economy Investing

Speaker A: Ever wonder how a career that starts in mining ends up making waves in ocean innovation? On, uh, today's episode of the Supporters Fund Impact Investing podcast, we're diving in with Serena Nguyen, a strategist who's gone from Fortune 500s to Microsoft, from launching equity movements to steering a 3 trillion blue economy. We'll connect with everything from water safe beauty to climate tech circular fashion, and, and why your next investment might just save the seas. Grab your snorkel. This is an episode you'll want to go deep on. Serena, welcome to the show. It's such a treat to have you here today. Super excited. You've had such an amazing career that's evolved from mining, big tech, and now you're championing up in the big seas, which I think the blue economy is very passionate to myself. But we're excited to dive into all of these amazing parts of, uh, your career and where you're going next. But thank you. We're really excited to have you join us today.

Speaker B: Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited.

Speaker A: Well, the way we like to start our show off is we want to dive right into it. We want to learn a little bit more about yourself, so perhaps you can give us a little bit more of your background and then one thing about you that nobody would know.

Speaker B: All right. Um, one thing about myself that, uh, nobody would know. We'll get to that, because I think what's interesting is the origin stories. Um, there was a Deloitte partner that I was at an event recently, Jennifer, and she said it's really important to recognize, um, and own and speak to your origin stories, because little do we know how much our mom's histories, our grandmother's histories, um, affect and influence ours and kind of take us to who we are today. So my parents are both refugees from Vietnam. They have wild, wild escape stories, um, which, you know, maybe we'll. We'll go down a rabbit hole another day. Um, but their story is kind of embedded in what gave me some of the core principles that allow me to be successful and creative and entrepreneurial in, in my life today. Right. Um, they had to start from nothing. Um, when they got here, they came actually separately and met here in Canada. And so I'll speak to my mom's story a little bit more, which I didn't know until, like, my mid-20s, which is kind of like, shame on me. Um, but it also, it was such an important history to learn around her resilience. You know, she's very happy with a bit more of a simple Life and, you know, my youth, I was like, ready to go out there, explore the world and, you know, adventure. And she was very happy to support that. Um, but she said, that's your adventure, not mine. And little did I know it's because she had a wild adventure of her own. Having to escape Vietnam as a boat person and all the things that they experience on the open seas. Um, and so that is an interesting kind of like, generational thing that connects me to the ocean and what I'm passionate and dedicating a large part of my time to doing now. But I actually started my career in mining, which is kind of like the bad side, right, when you think about the big discussions around climate change. Um, and I spent four years doing some incredible work across, uh, the world and got to see that side of the business. And I think that that's such an important, um, perspective to be able to bring into the work that I do now. So I went from there. I went into management consulting and then I went into one of Canada's fastest fintechs, um, and then deeper into the innovation economy. And you know, coming from a refugee family, you're kind of told to, um, keep your head down, do the work, you know, work your way up, choose that kind of more traditional path of a career for success. Um, and so that's, that was a lot of the ethos that I brought through my schooling, even though I had this secret passion for the environment. I started ecotrek, which was this like, environmental club around recycling, did presentations on it in my public, um, speaking class. Um, but as you grow up and life kind of takes hold and the social structures and the family structures get ingrained in your brain, you start to carve a different path for yourself. Right? Um, and so mine was traditional. It was, what's that opportunity, um, for me to be successful, um, to minimize the, you know, what, what we saw is like, financial struggle in our family because my parents were refugees, so on and so forth. And so I chose that I wanted to be a businesswoman. Like, what does that even mean? Who in their youth is like, I'm going to be a CEO of something? Um, I had no idea what that meant. So I went down this path of like, going into mining, trying to keep my head down, do the hard work, work my way up kind of thing. And I found that in that career and pretty much every career that followed, whether it was management consulting or being in tech and innovation, I was always trying to challenge the status quo. Right? I was always trying to do things a Little bit differently. I saw problems in different ways. Um, I came up with solutions that, you know, as you learn and grow and gain experience, you are able to better articulate why that solution is going to be impactful, why it's connected to the business. But at the time I was just like, this is a great idea. You know, this is, I can see it, I can um, I can see the potential impact of it. And I had to learn how to explain the pathway to um, implementing it, creating a roadmap for it, bringing it to life, even though resources might be scarce or this might not exist yet, so on and so forth. And so I became this like problem solver in my roles. I became um, the idea person, a bit of that strategy person. I was somebody who came up with unconventional ideas and tried to pull it together and bring it to a business and that kind of carried me through consulting. You know, the fintech that I was a part of, I started in an area, but really I was working with the leadership team to address various transformation problems that they were encountering when I came to Canada's innovation economy. You know, our innovation economy is relatively young. Um, we're only about like 20, 25, 30 years arguably in terms of the, the type of entrepreneurship and investment um, that you're, you're seeing now. Um, and that was exciting to me because it was all about problem solving. It was all about how, how to figure out something for an ecosystem that hasn't existed before or has existed, just not in our world and not in our context and um, not in the way that we could do it. And so um, I grinded there too. I kept my head down, I did the hard work, I worked with leadership, I came up with new ideas, I implemented programs, I drove transformation, um, strategies, I stood up social enterprises. Um, the Coalition of Innovation Leaders Against Racism. That was one where I got to work with the top innovation leaders across Canada to find pathways for more people like myself to have an opportunity to bring entrepreneurship, new ideas, skills, um, different ways of thinking, um, to the innovation and tech sector, which was predominantly, um, male oriented at the time. Right. Um, and so um, all that's to say I am this like natural problem solver and through standing up organizations, keeping my head down and doing the work and um, having this experience of standing up this social enterprise, I reached this point of kind of like man, I'm tired. Like I care about this work, it's very exciting and I care about it. But what do I want to wake up and do? Like what are the conversations that are really exciting to me. What's the legacy that I want to leave? Um, you know, what for my kids or my future kids or whatever. What do I care about for them? And it came back to the environment. So I think back to starting EcoTrek back in like grade what, five or six or whatever it was. I think about this just one, um, just one piece speech that I did in my public speaking class about pollution. Just one piece of garbage, how that makes a difference by recycling it or not throwing it on the ground or in the water or whatever. And so it kind of brought me back to explore what we're in climate. I wanted to play.

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Speaker B: So yes, um, as I was saying, I have a really, I'm very fortunate to have an incredible group and network of leaders who are very supportive in what I do. And I think that's part of that's because I have that keep your head down, get the work done kind of spirit and mentality too. So they can always rely on me for that. But, um, I expressed this interest that I had in my CEO at the time, young Wu, he said, like, go do it. And so I had the opportunity to take a break, um, go on an internship in Little Cayman, which is this tiny spit of an island in the Cayman Islands. You could literally throw a pebble, um, and reach the other end of the island. And I interned on a research institute called the Central Caribbean Marine Institute, um, where world renowned researchers would come to the station and do their field work. Um, so I had folks from the Smithsonian, from mit, Woods Hole, from Latin Israel and University, um, of Florida coming and um, doing their projects. And I was the happy intern, which is quite a change from usually being a leader in a company making the decisions, doing the work, to just be a humbled intern there to learn and observe and ask questions. And they were doing some really incredible stuff for our oceans. Whether it was restoration, whether it was biomaterials, acoustic engineering, underwater, um, all things geared towards, um, conservation, protecting our ocean, innovation in the oceans so that sectors like marine and shipping, um, can minimize their impact. And so I got really excited. So I went Back I told my CEO and, and I got to start a couple of projects um, at Mars Discovery District related to the blue economy. Um, Mars worked with climate, uh, startups, um, had a huge portfolio in there, um, Canada as a whole though I was not seeing as many stories around the innovation and the tech happening for our ocean. And that got me curious, that got me asking the question why? Right? Canada has the largest coastline, um, we have fresh water, salt water, access to the Arctic. And I was like we lead in clean tech. You know we pump out some of the top clean tech solutions in the world. We kind of punch above our weight in that respect. Why aren't I seeing a lot more investment in the ocean and the blue economy? So I went down the path and I learned a lot in terms of the huge opportunity in our oceans. Um, you know it's expected to be a $3 trillion market by 2030, uh, supporting over 40 million jobs. That's not insignificant. Um, and it drives ocean assets, drive about 24 trillion in global value. Okay so it is a huge, huge um, opportunity for entrepreneurs, investors and businesses to do both economic and social environmental good. And so I went down the rabbit hole and I was like why aren't we doing more? And built partnerships and started my own consulting business. I'm now co founding a uh, community platform to bring knowledge and action together, um, and have written a children's book uh, also to start sharing some of the stories of the creatures and the things that I've gotten to explore. Um, now becoming a new diver and really started to connect kind of that passion, my profession together. And even now in, in my role um, at Digital Supercluster, I am um, um the chief development officer now there. And I see technology and innovation as such a critical component of how we're going to make, create positive change in our oceans. And um, it will all be now about telling the story, connecting the dots and really starting to amplify and double down not just uh, in our investments of um, technology but also our investments in the knowledge, the systems and the structures that we would have to re engineer um, in order to support um, what can drive a more sustainable, clean and prosperous future for not just Canada, but the world. So that's been the evolution and where I kind of the intersection that I sit at now.

Speaker A: That's amazing story and there's so many pieces I want, I'm going to unpack or at least we're going to attempt to unpack. Uh, but great story and I'm going to start off by one Thing that we didn't know about you, which is more of. What's one thing about you that we didn't know about? More of you and your family. And it's, um. What kind of jumped into my mind was that? When I was 16, uh, years old, um, I lived in Newmarket, uh, and above me was, uh, three guys that worked for Magna, and they connected me to one. One individual that lived there. He was Vietnamese, and he actually had his story of coming to Canada, and I had the opportunity of interviewing him. So even back then, I don't, uh, the reasons are. I'm assuming it was for school, but, uh, they were nice guys, and I live with my brother. So I, um, got to interview him. And he told me the story of how he came across in a boat and that he was on the bottom of a boat for three months. And just the whole story that he went through and how he went through it, it just started to resonate in my mind. And I actually got the opportunity a couple times to go and see him and his family, because once he came in, he then brought his family over, um, a year and a half later. And I just happened to be at the time when, um, he had moved out and he had brought his family over. But I guess that was my first interview. So am I allowed to use that and say that I've been interviewing people for, uh, 30 years?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: But it was pretty fascinating story. And. And it's actually been a few other ones of, uh, friends along the way. And you know, what I find about it is the. It creates such a huge drive and mentality, change for the children that are born from, um, people that have immigrated into a country and had to go through these difficulties. Another friend of mine, she told me how her father escaped. He stole a helicopter, um, and he literally flew from there to Cambodia. And when he landed, it was on top of a hill. And, um, they didn't know what to do because he was in an army helicopter. And they were watching this guy, and they're like. And he didn't speak their language, and vice versa. So he sat in the helicopter until they walked up. One guy did. And they were, uh, army, of course. And then they walked up and dropped the bag of money. He didn't know what it was, dropped the bag in front of him. So he got out of the helicopter, and he literally went. Opened up, and it realized that it was a bag of money. They were buying the helicopter off him. So he sold. He literally took the bags of money and he left. He just walked Through Cambodia. And he's like, I don't know what I'm going to do with all this money. But he just walked away. So the story is just incredible because you're like one, he didn't know how to fly one he just decided he'd figure it out. And he took off from Vietnam in uh, in a, in a helicopter. So these stories I think are either going to be obviously super hardship, but he ended up meeting his wife here as well. And then uh, that's how we be my, we became friends because uh, obviously she was born here. But the story is like incredible. You're like, you have no idea these things are going to happen and you're just blown away by them. And uh, the, the drive to succeed or to be successful or just to live it surely uh, is uh, it's different than what we're born to and what we uh, we see. But I think there's a lot of that in us and I think that's where I really wanted to go is that um, you know, you're. Everybody has some background as you mentioned earlier. And what is that background and how does that drive you? And it sounds like a lot of the dry drive you had to find solutions, find ways to survive, but also find ways to make things better. Um, and it was pretty amazing that uh, a lot of that learning that you've gone through in mining, uh, you started to pull a lot of that in and become a solutionist, uh, in your environment, but trying to find ways to get through that. And I guess when you're in that experience of working and mining, is there something that kind of stands out to you because it obviously drove you to the water, um, and mining tends to, I guess we'll call it waste water in order to build off what they're doing. Um, and you were building stuff as a kid. Was there something in mining that kind of really triggered your mind to say one, I love this space. Like you know, this is survival of what you're trying to do. But it still drove you to um, more into the uh, to the ocean I guess, and get your way there. Is there some kind of pivotal moment that you kind of thought, okay, I really need to shift out of this Because I know miners, they've been there their whole lives. They don't think anything different there. Once a miner, always a minor kind of thing?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, it's funny. Yes and no. There wasn't really a pivotal moment. I took that role coming out of university because it gave me the opportunity to Travel, Right. And, you know, coming from, uh, a refugee background where my parents got divorced when we were young as well. So my mom was a single mom of four, uh, for a period of time too. And so we didn't have as many trips. We didn't have as much, you know, luxury. And so that adventurous side of me that was like, ready to see the world and be, you know, out there and, and all that stuff, um, saw this opportunity as one. It's a great company. Like, you know, Canada is really well known for mining as well. I knew enough to know that it was an incredible opportunity. But really it gave me the chance to travel. Right. Um, and it gave me a chance to live abroad. I lived in Brazil for a year and then was back and forth between, uh, Canada and Brazil, um, in the subsequent years. And so I was like, great. And I got to see other parts of Canada. So that was the initial, like, why m. Why mining? It wasn't mining. It was why this company? What, what opportunity was it going to give me? And for me it was a chance to see the world and explore something that was good. And it was a business path. Right? So that, that stable security side of my, My cultural values was like, it's a safe job, go for it kind of thing. Right? With. With a bit of that adventure. Um, and as I learned about the mining, uh, sector, so I was brought over with 18, uh, other Canadians in this nationwide search, um, because there was a huge change management effort at the time. The company had acquired a Canadian company and, um, had to kind of, uh, integrate culturally. Right? And so Canadians were brought over, um, got to see and work with the senior leadership, um, in Brazil to understand how they did things and act a bit as those change agents to help, um, with the merger and acquisition process. Right. And so I got to see everything end to end in Brazil. How, you know, the sites where, yes, you saw the big wastewater kind of, um, areas and you learned about, um, how they use everything from marine shipping all the way through to other forms of transportation in order to just get all the stuff to, um, all the minerals to the ports and to the customers, the end customers. And so it was incredible to see the scale of these operations, but also the impact that they were having not just on the mine site, but all the way through to where they were being delivered to and then how they were being used beyond that. Right? So that there was never a trigger where I was like, I need to get out of here. I learned so much. Uh, I think there's never a good And a bad. In an ecosystem, everybody has a role to play. Right. And I think mining is a really important piece because we're seeing it right now. We still need to mine in order to develop some of the solutions that are being created, um, because of the materials and the minerals. Can we repurpose them? Yes, there are some technologies working on that as well. Um, am I an expert in that? Absolutely not. So don't dig into that question. But you know, there is this technology and there are these efforts. And so I think everybody has their role to play. So mining has its place. Can we do better in it? Absolutely. Are there solutions that now are looking at how to take wastewater and um, purify it, use it better to minimize the amount of wastewater that is actually being used? Absolutely. And so the solutions exist out there. Um, and I think the, the moment of I need a change was more around, um, that innate problem solver in me. I was kind of like, what's, what's the next thing? You know, what's the next problem that I can now be a part of and explore and solve? And this was early in my career, so I knew, um, consulting would have been something that allowed me to explore even further. And so I started to go down the management consulting route as well.

Speaker A: And I think that, to your point that as these businesses start to shift, think of where they were when you first were in there to where they are today. Uh, I'm sure they have made leaps and bounds on reducing resourcing, reducing the amount of water footprint they were using to break down, uh, say, or, or making a car. And you already know that there's like, to make a car, it's like 40,000, um, gallons of water just to make a single car. So you already have a significant amount of waste, and there's waste on all aspects of it. Um, and I think that today, and maybe all the work that has happened over the last 20, 30 years has, or maybe that's a bit too far. Maybe in the last 10, 10 years is this regenerative space has been focused really on how do you shift from the waste instead of just letting it go and saying it's of no use. People are starting to realize, look, if I make a quick change here, I can save this kind of money. So these businesses are not just pivoting from how can I do the least amount of work effort ever, which is kind of how businesses work. Like, I started with a lot of effort, it cost me this much, and I sell it for this, and now I make more profit by fixing my um, effort side now you're saying, well, I can sell byproduct, I can clean up all these other aspects. It starts to make a big difference in your bottom line, your operational line, et cetera, all the way through. So now these innovative solutions that are coming to market are more beneficial uh, to corporations because they can make impact on so many different levels. And I think you being able to see that and work inside that space certainly helps you bend and come up with better solutions. As you worked as a consultant, as you work now, um, in the digital space and in more areas where you have that impact, you can take all that learning and start to drive that forward faster and say, look, this doesn't even make sense on how you guys are producing this. Have you ever thought of these options?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, this is why, you know, I believe technology and innovation are going to be key to our ocean problems as well, is because it has allowed us to advance in so many areas and find those efficiencies and find, you know, the areas where we don't have to waste as much. And now I think about it in the context of things like AI and how AI has been driving change, but specifically generative AI and alternative, um, how that's how that agentic AI, how that is actually going to change how we work. Because for us to solve these really big problems, um, we not only need to understand how things used to be done, like the knowledge that I got to take from my experience in mining companies and others to understand how technology actually is coming up with solutions, but we also have to have the time to have those conversations and actually get at the root of um, the systems that, that, the way that business is run or that solution is run operates on. So I, I think about our economic system, right? We have a really, um, the Western side has, has that mindset of what's, what's the right ROI, what's the right investment, right? SDG 14 Life below water is the least funded SDG out there right now. Um, and it, and it's my belief that it's because people don't understand and are grounded in the context of, well, we need to 10x our investment in a solution for it to be successful, right? That's, that's where a large amount of capital is still looking for those investment opportunities. It's those big moonshot, big return solutions. And yes, they'll, they'll have a portfolio that balances some of that out. But the ocean and the solutions coming for from the blue Economy, they're harder to understand. Um m. They're really complex. They're ecosystem solutions. Um, they are, uh, because it's been the least funded sdg, the science behind it, the metrics for success are more immature. So the investment risk is higher. We don't know what we don't know. Right. And so you're, you're also seeing this hesitation to invest really heavily in something that could be at the root of all the challenges. So I think about mining, think of all of the operational efficiencies that both is social impact as well as economic impact impact that they can gain if they just tweak something, reduce their waste, reduce their operational, their internal operational costs and do better for the environment around them. You know, so having to um, um, help communities impacted by where the mindsight is, like the costs related to that too are reduced for a mining company if they can do better early on. Right. So if we are able to use things like agentic AI, AI and technology to create more time for us as human beings to have the really tough conversations of uh, what else in the system needs to change? What are the mindsets? What are the cultural expectations? Whether that's a lower return on investment or a different return on investment? Because we're now taking into consideration social impact, environmental impact and economic impact. Those are the conversations that allow the masses to start to move into this space that we can see greater, um, investment appetite, more solutions being brought to scale, uh, more businesses understanding why these solutions are actually going to impact their, the success of their business in the long run.

Speaker A: It's, it's pretty um, fascinating the way you kind of break that down. Because I think in my head I'm trying to understand is, well, why is it that investments on ground have no issue whatsoever? If I got to build a new model, I got to build a new building, I got to do all these things. I can control every facet of this. And then when you look at water, it seems to take this whole different meaning. It's like it's been a dumping ground for the last thousand years and we can hide everything and throw everything in here and we don't care. And now all of a sudden, you know, if you take 40 years ago, fish was, you know, the poor man's meal, uh, I think is what they classified it as. And now all of a sudden it's, you know, everybody has the highest cost and everything is super rich and we're depleting the oceans and it's still looked at as this who cares? Which is still Odd because, and maybe it's the, the whole factor is that, you know, their climate, you can manage, manage weather. You understand where there's snow, there's rain, all that stuff. And you're like, no, I can still build here and still produce this and still get this out of the mountain. I can do what I need. Water is this super bad unknown. Uh, they're like, I have no idea what's going to happen if I try to do X and Y. And every day is a bad day because there's a storm, there's this, and I can't figure out how to manage this. So I don't even want to bother because to your point, the cost will go through the roof and I'll probably lose everything. And it reminds me of the book, um, Eat Like a Fish by um, uh, uh, Breen Bren, Bren I think his name is. Um, and, but he talks about every time he tried to build a kelp farm and do all these things and then within three days the whole thing would get washed away. Even though it's under the, the, the currents underground. Right. There was a lot of things that would stir up until he figured out what the real process was and where and when and how he could do it. So it's like if you put the time into it, you, we can manage this and we can figure out and stop making the oceans a toilet bowl and figure out how do we clean this up and do some better things out there. Um, and maybe that goes back to education, maybe that goes back to the schools, it goes back to everybody else putting more effort into supporting the ecosystem instead of, uh, being afraid of it and saying that it's not worth going out there, even though there's a whole world of ecosystems that can be built from it.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think education is a really important piece of this. It's the same with our land based clean tech solutions. Right. When those started coming out, people didn't really understand the business case. Um, but it took 20 years for us to really start to see things commercialize. Um, and so SDG 14 being the least funded. SDG was not just on the like, tech and innovation side, it's also on the research side. So if we don't understand how our waterways connect, how the ocean connects to the environmental components, to the business components, to the land components, to the health components as individual human beings, um, how will we have the motivation and the desire to make the changes? Right. And so while we thought it was a dumping ground way back when, and now you have the great Pacific Garbage Patch and you know, all of those things that, that were a result of our lack of knowledge, um, we now understand and can take action. I think the thing that needs to change is people. I go back to the importance of, in my view, the importance of AI and agentic AI freeing up uh, people's time. Because everybody feels busy. No matter who you talk to, it's like oh, it's a really busy week, you know, like oh, I'm really busy or there's something that's always keeping folks busy. When people are that overwhelmed with information and to dos and you know, the, the minutiae of getting things done like emails and this, that and the other, you don't have the space to learn about these bigger, more complex things that we now have to solve for. Right. We're entering an era where it's not just the environmental issues, there's also social constructs and other things that are starting to bubble up. Right. Like how, how does this need to shift in this new age of humanity and how can AI free up the time for us to take in that knowledge and then have the conversations to understand what's at the root of that and what needs to change? So you go to that, the, the person that was doing the kelp farming, the um, um, the story about the kelp farmer, they had to take the time to learn about that ecosystem that they were trying to build in, um, if they were inundated with emails and this and that, the end there. And I'm sure they were. But you don't have as much time and space to do that. And then you don't have as much time and space to share your learnings and allow people to more efficiently like come um, up with solutions and, or learn from each other in this ecosystem and say hey, that worked on land, can it work in the ocean? Um, and what do we need to do to do that more efficiently instead of starting from a blank page. And we're starting to see that with some of the technologies, um, you think about sonar scanning or underwater scanning, there was a lot of that was first land based solutions. Um, and now they're taking that and bringing that to how do we

Speaker C: leverage

Speaker B: that technology to more rapidly adapt the solutions in underwater context. Right. And so you, you, you're starting to see that cross functional collaboration happen, but can only happen in the speed and the pace that we need it to to head off some of these really scary big headlines that we're seeing around climate disaster and otherwise. If we have the time to have the conversations if we have the time to say this is what needs to change and this is how we can invest in it. And this is why I'm such a big proponent of AI and agentic AI, freeing up that time for these people's um, for people to have those conversations and to learn about the things that we don't know right now and haven't had the capacity to learn about so that we can make more informed decisions for um, humanity.

Speaker A: I love that. And I think the theme of all of this is making the space to have the conversation and to listen and figure out where there are solutions. It sounds like all of this struggle of ocean and how it matches with innovation and technology is really being held back by the fact that it doesn't have 20, 30 years of tried true and tested examples of how it can be moving forward in the right direction. So it just keeps getting punted down the road and it's not getting that um, the time. And it sounds like it's just more conversations need to happen and probably relatively quickly because you have a lot of issues from bleaching to uh, massive amounts of depletion that's occurring. We just think that this is an endless bottomless pit of food. Instead of figuring out how do we fix that, which is the same issue you had with trees and everything else over the last few decades. And it started to make me think in my mind is that how do you have these conversations and get people to get behind it? Which country literally would support this more than any other country, but with their sea and Canada kind of fits that because we have uh, the direct drive to the North Pole. Uh, we have um, obviously a lot of waterways as you mentioned, the largest in the world. So maybe it is us as a country that needs to have that conversation. Maybe we need to get a billionaire behind it. That they say that this is uh, the, the trip to the middle of the ocean. Uh, we're going to build uh, this aqua center and it's just going to be like going to Mars. And now all of a sudden when you, you do this, you put something on the map, everybody starts to drive towards it like look how fast space tech has taken off. It'll probably end up becoming the SDG 18 which is going to be all about protecting Mars and getting to Mars and how we have to protect the moon and ecosystem. And that'll come um, before we even protect what's on earth, which is obviously what we have in the water. So a lot of it's mind boggling because you're like, why is there trillions of dollars going into space but there's nothing really going. Like you said, billions of dollars going into ocean. And ocean is here. And is it. That's because, you know, that's more exciting or is it because that's such a, uh, tough thing to challenge ourselves with. So we better figure out how to solve Mars versus we better figure out how to sustain ourselves on our own planet before the planet, you know, breaks apart.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I laugh at that because it's, it's such a, in the circles that, that are advocates of, you know, ocean sustainability that that's always the conversation. It's like that's, it's not the sexy headline. And how, how can you say that when it literally sustains life? It's so much is tied to health and well, being related to our oceans and water and space is so far out there and our oceans are right here on the, the land. And so what's, what's really, what's going to be really interesting is I, I think we've got to get some billionaire. Absolutely. You, uh, know, tied into this and excited. And there are, you know, we're seeing a lot more funds. Um, you know, the, the Bill Gates foundation, the Bezos foundation, they, they do now have a lot more fund focus on um, ocean sustainability and conservation. But where I go back to the systems change thing, we need to have the conversation of what's at the root of, of what's harming our oceans right now. And that is some of the societal things that we're just used to. I, I'm guilty of it. Uh, you know, do I have a plastic bottle, water bottle every now and again? Yeah, absolutely. And that's because of the convenience that's been built in. It's because in some cases that's the only thing available. Um, and we haven't invested in the solutions that can replace those things. Right. That's where those tough conversations. Because you know what's really scary as a human, and I'll kind of go back to, um, one of your first questions of what don't people know about me? Um, it's really scary to face the fact that we as humans are flawed. Right. And what people don't know is I've been going through somatic therapy. And it's wonderful. It's, it's life. It's made night and day between how I used to operate and how I operate today, including tell, how I tell my story and how I speak about that. We are an imperfect species. So we have made some imperfect decisions of how we live, the conveniences that we enjoy, the luxury, you know, of. I love traveling and I know the carbon footprint, you know, like we are innately human in that nature and we have to kind of embrace that in order to say, okay, we can accept that we're innately human. And what can we do a little bit differently to minimize that impact? Um, you know, what is it, that 1% rule where if you can get better at at something, just 1%, you know, that accumulates and that's that, that can have a massive impact with, at the end of the day, if Everybody improves that 1% or if you just tackled it, um, over time. So what's our version of the 1% that we can do better that minimizes our impact on the ocean? What, how and how do we address that? Through healing. First off, through, honestly, through deep healing, of accepting the fact that we are human, we've made the wrong decisions in the past and that we are capable of making the changes so that we can make better decisions for the future. And so what's easier than facing that fear and that judgment of ourselves? It's by saying, hey, there's a really cool other planet that we should explore because it might be the next best solutions as opposed to saying, we are the problem and so no matter what, if we're going to go to Mars, we're going to trash that planet as well. Right?

Speaker C: Hiring is hard. The stakes are high. The wrong hire can cost time, momentum and money. That's why we built Hardboot. We work with founders and investors to find the people who move the needle in sales, marketing and product. Every candidate goes through our 50 point inspection process. So you don't just fill a role, you build a foundation. Your business is our business. We want you to win. Learn more@hardboot inc.com.

Speaker A: Perfect. So without the blunders, I think where, uh, where I was going was that I think Canada has the real opportunity to be the leaders. And I think if you look back at the land stewardess of the, of how the world has been shifting, now you've got the native community, which has certainly changed a lot and making sure that everything going forward is being, um, managed by that. And I think if we had stewardess for the water and Canada could really be that. I think it's the same ideas that if anything is going to take place in these, in the oceans around the world, there should be someone that has to govern it. Just like the European Union governs the way, uh, intellectual Property and everything else attacks the world if we don't have these measures to protect uh, the country and push back against everybody that just wants to make money and they don't care how they're affecting the world. Uh, I think somewhere in there we have to figure out who that is. And even in all of the sci fi future movies they always have a consortium of people that manage everything. So maybe in the way we have to figure out how to get there and maybe uh, maybe you're the driver behind it that comes uh, up with this consortium that says uh, if you're touching the water then you have to go through, uh, through your group. But there should be something that benchmarks this and corrects it because if it doesn't change, it only makes the, makes life on earth a little bit more difficult. And I don't think going and finding another planet to live on is our solution, uh, to everything, is to let everything else fall apart so we can find somewhere else to go.

Speaker B: Yeah, I would love to see Canada lead on the global stage. And I think they can. You know, um, the UN has that consortium. There's a lot of countries that go to the UN Ocean Decade Conference and we have those conversations. We ratify different treaties or we aim to ratify different treaties. Um, I was just in Nice, what less than a month ago, um, and we had I think an additional 19 countries sign on to the High Seas Treaty to protect uh, international waters. Um, 60 is needed to fully ratify it and bring it into law. So we're getting closer. Um, and I think every organization like the U.N. ocean Decade and uh, like the U.N. sorry. And um, there's incredible, organizations are doing great work and Canada can lead. You know we, we just talked about all of the geographical benefits. You know, there's also all the technology and innovation benefits, um, as well that we've seen in both our uh, classic kind of traditional enterprise tech as well as our, our climate tech land based solutions. So let's just bring, bring it over to the ocean now and make sure that um, we can act as those stewards for the world. Um, and that does mean though that we need to invest. I think right now like under 1% of our GDP goes to uh, ocean investments. So we have some work to do for sure. But I think this is a great opportunity and have a bit more of a call to action because we are stepping up on the global stage, um, from a political, um, and economic standpoint. And I think that gives us the window to also step up on these really meaningful Global issues where Canada um, can be a great convener, steward, global steward and investor, um, in the solutions that people are making.

Speaker A: I love it. So instead of everybody diving into this uh, 5% of uh, global arms race and GDP structures so that we can pay for uh, wars instead, why don't we focus on solving world, real world problems and putting say 2% of 3% of the GDP towards cleaning uh, up and, and uh, being a steward of the, of the oceans and not just in one spot globally. Uh, and maybe our Greenpeace, uh, banner, we can put the suit back on and go after it, uh, is blue I think. So we could use that just for the oceans and uh, then that way it would be a good transition since I'm not sure we're doing anything else in the other space. So this would be more effective anyhow. So maybe we just put people up at guards at the water and they just walk around telling everybody you can't do that anymore.

Speaker B: Now, now we got autonomous uh, vessels. So we, it's not even people really that we need. We have a combination of tech and people that can, can be at the center of it for sure.

Speaker A: I love it. Well, there's a big movement and I think we gotta certainly spearhead um, it and drive it forward. Um, but I think uh, just in, in due to time and I would love to get into the rant, we have to do at least the rant. So uh, we have, we have 60 seconds. Go as much time as you need. But um, we're in a transition to that. And then we'll, we'll uh, we'll wrap things up just because of timing and technical difficulties to ran us where we are. But it's been an amazing conversation. So 60 seconds on anything that you feel that you can rant on that is going to change the world. And I'm all for it.

Speaker B: Okay, unpopular opinion. We've got to have the tough conversation around, um, what growth looks like for true sustainability on Earth. Um, so, you know, people don't like that conversation because it means, you know, we're talking about people not looking at traditional families and you know, having children at the same rate. But you know, we are on a planet that has limited resources, that has limited space, um, that operates as a true ecosystem, whether it's our water, our trees, our air, our fish, uh, our coral reefs, uh, humans, ourselves. And so we have to have the really, really tough conversation, um, and change the structure around our current economic system of exponential growth that does not exist, that cannot exist in this world. And so how do we have the tough conversation and allow people to actually, um, engage in this different form of thought of, well, what does sustainable growth, and I use that word, you know, a bit facetiously, growth look like? Um, and how do we, how do we do that as a species? Um, in a way that's in balance with the rest of the ecosystem on Earth? Um, I think there is a solution. I think we've been too afraid to have that conversation. And, you know, I'll throw a, um, a bit of, uh, an angle on this because even the evolution of families today are shifting. You see people having children later. You, um, see, um, people who are making the decision not to have children, and they're very happy with that. That shouldn't be shamed or blamed or changed. You have people with different abilities who may or may not be able to have children. And so you got it. We've got to change the standard and expectation of what growth and growing your family looks like and why it's important. Because it is going to be an important piece, I think, in terms of creating true sustainability on the Earth that we have today.

Speaker A: I love it. I'm not even going to counter it. I do agree with you 1,000%. I think that, uh, capitalism has driven everybody to this solo outlook on life and that it's all about me and myself and I. And I think that we've, uh, lost a lot of, uh, how we support each other, to support family and support the Earth that we live on. And I think that if you reduce capitalism or get rid of it, I know it's thousands of thousands of years. Capitalism is what's driven the world. But to your point, uh, I think we've surpassed that in our own mentality and how we see life. And if we go back to supporting our families and each other, I think that would change the way we look at, um, the organic matter in this world and support that just like its family. And you'll see a shift in how people do that. And it's going to take hundreds of years, and if we don't, then it's just going to be like Dune and every other movie where it's, uh, the limited amount of people fighting against the superpowers of whatever was created to, uh, protect the little drip of water that's left. So I think there has got to be a lot of change. And, you know, I look back to, um, this book called Chasing Life, and I think it was, um, uh, Gupta, uh, that read it, wrote the book, and everywhere he went it was about how can I sustain life longer and what people were doing to live longer and how they lived to the ripe Age of 130 and what were they doing to do that? And a lot of it came down to, uh, friends, family, good food, the oceans, and protecting the, the environment that you're in and collectively doing it. Not. There isn't one person that lived to 130 that lived in a cave by themselves. So, uh, I'm pretty sure that it's sustained by being around, uh, like, mind individuals and families and. And uh, I think that's where it's going to take us. So I would love to ask some questions, but I know we're at that moment, so the other questions would be, uh, we'll. We'll leave it at this into the next show until we get the opportunity to have you back. Um, but I want to say, Serena, it was a real pleasure getting to dive into this and I'm glad that there's someone out there that, uh, amongst the few that are out there fighting for the planet, but fighting for the oceans. So, um, it's been really great chatting with you and I hope that, um, you can share a little bit about, um, how people can get a hold of you. And my final question before we sign off would be what is your superpower? And, um, thank you again for all your time.

Speaker B: Of course. Well, thank you for having me. My superpower is finding weird ways that things connect. Because if I've learned anything from the ocean, it's that everything is connected and there is a way. We've just got to have the conversation and take the time to figure it out. So that is my superpower. Um, how folks can get in contact with me is find me on LinkedIn. Um, you can also look at the work that I'm doing in the oceans. Ah, theundertoe. Ca. Um, and, uh, or is it flow. Flow with the undertow. Flow with the undertow. Ca. Um, and, uh, I look forward to hopefully, uh, continuing this conversation because I think it's such an important one and there are so many people doing incredible work, and I'd love to take a little bit more time to spotlight what they're doing, including you. Thank you for having me on, on the podcast and being able to share a bit of my story and my perspective on it.

Speaker A: I love it. We will have you back 100,000%. It was great chatting with you and thanks. Thanks again for all your time.

Speaker B: Of course. Thank you.

Speaker C: Hiring is hard. The stakes are high. The wrong hire can cost time. Momentum and money. That's why we built Hardboot. We work with founders and investors to find the people who move the needle in sales, marketing and product. Every candidate goes through our 50 point inspection process. So you don't just fill a role, you build a foundation. Your business is our business. We want you to win. Learn more@hardbootinc m.com.