Ep. 181 Why Founders Burn Out | The Inner Game of Leadership with Caterina Lurani

Speaker A: Welcome. Podcast 162 with the phenomenal Katharina Lorani was one for the books. We cracked open what it really means to be resilient as a founder, how embracing discomfort can actually fuel your next big leap, and why curiosity isn't just cute. It's your superpower. If you skipped it, do yourself and your business a favorite. Go back and give it a quick listen. In this new episode we're building, right on top of that, we'll explore how dialing into your inner self helps smash through business and personal barriers. Plus a little growth hacking for your actual life, not just your metrics. Oh, and why cooking to fuel your body might just be more critical than spreadsheets you're obsessing over. Quick, soulful, and packed with takeaways you can use right now. Don't miss it. And are you having a great day?

Speaker B: I'm having an amazing day.

Speaker A: Perfect. I like it. That's awesome.

Speaker B: What about your day? Your day just started, right?

Speaker A: Uh, it did? Why? I'm up early. So my, My day started, uh, uh, quite early, I guess at six. And then I had a breakfast meeting. So it was one of our. My ambassadors from our other business was, um, pitching me on investing into a new company.

Speaker B: So it was, Ah, you've already been pitched.

Speaker A: Yeah, I've already been pitched. Yeah. It's happened 24. Seven pitches come everywhere, man. It's. It's part of the lifestyle, I guess. But as an interesting company, I've seen them before. I like them. Uh, I've met them. I've. They're, uh, they built a turbine, uh, that converts, um, so it's pretty cool. Grinds up aluminum, and then you've got, uh, some great outputs that they capture, which are three outputs. And they're looking to raise more money. So.

Speaker B: And they've developed the tech behind that.

Speaker A: They have, yeah. The turbine's pretty cool. It's a big, massive warehouse. The energy that is the offshoot from it, it also heats the warehouse. So I, I've been following for a couple of years, and now they're looking to raise, um, a larger round. And the Canadian government apparently is investing. So, yeah, ah, it's pretty cool. So it's a mix of hydrogen, aluminum oxide and, uh, so there's some good outputs. And they compete, uh, heavily in the market now because of the outputs that they have.

Speaker B: So I was just thinking while I was listening to you about, while being an investor, how many pitches you receive and how exhausting at some point it is, and I'm like, Wow. I feel so privileged that I don't get that now. I feel. So sometimes people still pitch me. You know, they pitch themselves. They pitch themselves because they want to convince that myself and themselves of their story, that they are right about whatever they are right about. So there is a little bit of pitching. I actually had a little bit of pitching today from a client who was like, he really was stubbornly attached to his story of being right in a conversation he has in his company. So pitching in that sense, like someone really convinced about their story and trying to convince you, but that pitching for selling, um, is gone. And it's something that I work a lot on with founders, actually, because I always tell them, they come to me and they sometimes tell me, I don't want to pitch, I don't want to be selling. I don't like selling myself, I don't like selling my technologies. And we, uh, we start from the concept of selling and we shifted to the concept of sharing. And what I say is, you know, if you're 100% sure that you have something of incredible value in your company that you have created, then the way I look at it is I have a huge value that I hold and I can share it. If you as investor come in, you know, the value will increase, the pie will increase for everyone. So instead of being, I'm trying to sell you something that I'm actually convinced is a bit of a scam. I'm trying to share with you something whose value can be increased, which value can be increased if we double down on it together. And once they make this shift, first of all, they realize, oh, what is lacking is my self confidence about the value of what I'm selling. Like, I say I believe it, I say I believe in it, but what does it really mean that I deeply, internally in my soul believe in the worth of it. And B, then if I step into that sharing, it becomes much easier to enroll people in my project rather than feel like I'm selling you something. So it's, uh, a, it's a very fun transition when, when they don't like pitching it.

Speaker A: I like the way that you share that because. And there's a couple of things that I'll pull out of that, and the biggest one is the together part, uh, you mentioned, because I think that's kind of key to this, is that you're sharing something which is totally unique and you're saying, hey, here's my business. This is super exciting. And then you kind of have to add in some elements. Why? Well, Your share price is $0.03 versus $0.10 in the next two years. And you're putting this hope that this is going to go there and then you tie in this value, which is, uh, I need to show that I'm good at what I do and here's why, and here's all of the elements that tie into this story. Um, and then you're saying, but you should join this journey and we can do this together and we're going to be better at this together if you're here. So I think in this conversation, to me the understanding is what does together really mean? Because you leave a lot of people behind. The first people you hire aren't the same people that are part of your team in five years from now. The investors that came in at the first of your business that were helping you get off the ground are not the investors that you're talking with every day. They're that have come in at uh, year five. So how do you actually make people feel that they're part of this journey together? Um, not just a five minute conversation and $50,000 later, you're now on to the next person. So you do really feel like, and you said it kind of feels like it's scammy. So you're not really tying them in. Like when I invest in the stock market, I'm not sitting there knowing that my $50,000 is making a difference at Apple, but I can see that this is, the momentum's moving and I just keep putting in value because I see the numbers, I see the momentum, I see the revenue, the earnings per share. I see all of the things that metrics that make sense to me that get me excited about the business. But then on the other hand, now it's the person selling and they're trying to bring me into this. So how do I make this actually work so that I feel like I'm part of a journey and not just part of a scam. That does feel like a scam, as you said.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I think that's a very right question. And it obviously depends whether we're talking about investors or employees. I think many people come to me and they say I want to work on people, management, especially CTO or people with a scientific background that have a bit of a self myth of I'm, um, not good with people. And the first thing I tell them is the one and only person you're never going to get rid of in your life is yourself. Not even your co founder, not even your wife. So first relationship, we need to really double down on is that. And it's so interesting how when we start aligning the relationship with the self, we start bringing that radical honesty and intellectual honesty on the individual. Then it's a bit of ripple effect into all of the other relationships. Then we might touch specifically and discuss that specific, specific relationship. But that radical integrity that come, that happens with the individual, that entitles them, um, to frame their reality in a way that is true and at the same time empowering for them and so allows them to sit in a, uh, in a call with an investor and be radically true about it. Where I always tell them, look, you don't want to tell that investor that you want them specifically. Surely there's going to be overlapping between the person that they are and the thesis. But ultimately you're an incredible business opportunity. Like, that's why the investor will want to say, I'm in. Because I think that in the last few years in venture, you know, also the need to differentiate yourself from other funds has brought a lot of fund managers to create very refined thesis. You know, what I bring on board is xyz. I'm like, in the end, the whole game of venture is every single company needs to give me back 20x of what I have invested because they need to cover the rest of the portfolio. Like, uh, as simple as it is. And so what I share with. And it's an amazing concept where when you transition your whole reflection from money to value, you know, especially when a founder is very early stage, the way they validate their ideas is related to money. And then I tell them, you want to create value. If there is value, that company will stand, people will buy the product, people will want to work for you. Investors will want to double down on it if you shift. Because that's, you know, money is the simple way of thinking about value because in our society that's how we, you know, it's a correspondence of value. But once we really focus on the concept of value, so what is an exchange of value rather than just an exchange of money, Then the founder starts to really reflect on something that is intrinsic. And when people see that, when they see your capacity to focus on value rather than on money, the scam is gone. They see the value pretty far away and then it creates a magnetizing effect because all of the stakeholders are magnetized together automatically. So sometimes when I start working with founders, I ask them, do you feel like you. Every time you wake up in the morning and you're trying to keep the ship together, the investor for the round that is coming. My co founder who's demotivated the last hire that is losing hope or doesn't have direction. Uh, my clients, because we are late with delivery and they're like, yeah, that's totally how I feel. I'm like, that's not how you should feel because that's when you try to keep things magnetized. But you're moving against a physical force, which is that of value. If you start to orbit things around the concept of value, all of these players will want to be in because there is value for them. And you will not have to push and pull in every direction every day, which obviously for them feels like paradise. And it's a whole lot of different story to build that in their everyday business. But even just, you know, in, in implanting the idea of that concept of value starts to shift the direction in which they build the company.

Speaker A: I love this. And, um, in my head, I'm kind of envisioning, uh, a Metro station. Uh, you're basically, you're, as a founder, you're operating as this Metro station. You have many trains coming in and out and you're servicing all the people that are going in and out of that Metro station to get them where they need to go. And, and you're informing them while they're coming through. So you're handing out pamphlets, you got digital boards. You're doing everything that's giving them the information to keep them appealing, but they'll keep coming back, so they're always going to come through that central hub. You are that central hub. So how do you ensure that your team is able to work and go the direction they need to and everybody else along those same tracks? And it's interesting because you're using this magnetized magnetism, which is you. You're literally having to build this, uh, funnel of getting people in and out and, and getting them information. And it's interesting because they're, to your point, they're feeling inundated. They're like, oh my God, I'm so exhausted. There's so many things that are hitting me. I don't know how to manage this. I don't know how to do that. And I think this goes to the conversation we're having yesterday when you get this slow down to speed up. It's what am I, what can I do better here as a person? Um, and you shared this again, which is doubling down on yourself, which is, what am I actually good at? What are my values inside of what I'm trying to build here? And If I slow everything down, I know everything's going to come through me. How can I shift some things and empower other people while I'm empowering those other people? How do I disseminate that information out? And then can I create a direction? Who is the person creating this direction? Oh, wait, that's me. I'm the. I'm the hub again. So you really are trying to break that person down to make them feel comfortable, what they're doing, but become a better conductor, I guess, in moving traffic information through. Is that fair?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And, I mean, while I was listening to you, I could feel the complexity of this Metro station, right? Like the amount of noise, the amount of pieces of the puzzle that are lost. And that's literally how I find founders sometimes where. Because they don't slow down, because there is a narrative about speed. And as I was mentioning yesterday, when they come to me, they do not have the ability to differentiate between inner pace and outer pace. And so what they think is, if I slow down, then I will just be lagging behind in real life. Huge FOMO coming into the picture. I would not achieve as many prices, as many, um, fundraising, you know, pitching gone well, as many travels, as many girlfriends, as many whatever they're looking for, and the moment in which they. They are capable to decouple the concept of inner pace and outer pace. And they realize I sometimes even just bring them. Some people I know as an example, where you can see that the person in the outer world is going at fast pace, and this is enabled by a very slow pace inside. We were talking yesterday about the pace of podcasts, right? And I often ask them, um, at what pace do you listen to podcasts? Um, you said you listen to them 3x, I think, and I said I often listen to them 0.75x. And the reason why I do that is because I intentionally want to slow down my nervous system, because I know that my nervous system tends to be very fast and very impatient. And I know that that doesn't need. Doesn't lead me to delivering Excellency. And that's just one of the things that I personally have figured out. You know, there's tons of different ways of doing that, but it's interesting to really understand an experience. That sort of polarized version of I slow down individually and my business starts to speed up, but the clarity that I gain, the silence, the quiet, the peace of mind that I create, allows me to see in the lake of noise around me, imagine that, that Metro station, and see the pillars that are actually the valuable and relevant aspects of my business coming up. You could look at them as the bottlenecks, for example, or you could look at them as risks that could kill the business. Or you could look at them as the once in a lifetime opportunities. Like there's tons of way through which you look at them. But essentially those or the crossroads that you don't want to miss, but essentially those are pillars that sometimes people just don't see because the noise is so loud in their lives. That the possibility and, and that's the essence of the work of an entrepreneur and an innovator right amongst the noise. I differentiate for those trends that are relevant and we talk about it, but uh, what it means to do it concretely is going against our nature is going against the dopamine of that noise. It's, it's, you know, you, I could see your face when I said I listened to those. Even 0.75. You were like, I get bored. I don't manage to listen to all of my books. You know, we all have incredible good stories about why we don't do that because our reality is pushing us 3x and obviously I listen to less books, you know, and how does that, you know, how do I put that into the bigger game? That's a really relevant question. I might have different strategies that allow me to still access the full information I want to access, but in a way where there is a strategy behind that. And not because I'm clever, but just because I had to ask this question to myself a lot of time and I had to stumble on those walls a lot of times.

Speaker A: Time.

Speaker B: So I think that ultimately the element of slowing down, it's um. No one likes it when I mention slowing down. I could, I myself feel like, you know, immediate feeling of missing out from the momentum. And the other thing I always say is, hey, slowing down and momentum is to radically things, different things. You might be moving at a very high pace on a daily basis, but if you don't have the momentum again, you might just stumble on that wall continuously and feel stuck. So when they start to track these elements in their lives, then it becomes easier to hook them in about the slowing down.

Speaker C: Hiring is hard. The stakes are high. The wrong hire can cost time, momentum and money. That's why we built Hardboot. We work with founders and investors to find the people who move the needle in sales, marketing and product. Every candidate goes through our 50 point inspection process. So you don't just fill a role, you build a foundation. Your business is our business. We want you to win. Learn more@hardboot inc.com.

Speaker A: I love that and I think too, when you start to understand pace and how things are moving and how they're operating and what you can control, what you can't control, what you, you empower other people to do. And once you can understand that, you're, if a good founder, you're like a puppeteer. You're. You're basically operating that puppet to move things around, which is the conductor in the Metro station. All of these things are all movable and you have to pick what you think in your mind is supposed to be running at this optimal speed. So if, if the 3x is for this, does that actually make you more focused on these other things? So you're jamming yourself with information for 20 minutes a day to get rid of your, say, anxieties or whatever it might be. Get that high threshold dopamine, as you suggested, and then the rest of your time is really just bringing the pace down and figuring out, I, uh, need to be able to anticipate this move. I need to anticipate what's going to happen here, how this is going to work. And that's going down to that 0.075. And it makes me think like when I'm listening to French books or I'm listening to Spanish books, or I'm listening to them at 0.5 and it's like, because it's not my primary language, but it's also because I can't afford to miss anything. So I have slowed it down so much that it was, uh, uh, you're like, oh my God, who listens at this space? But it's because I want to capture every single word so that I can make an understanding of what is being said. So it's kind of funny that when you start to look at this trajectory of your company or what things are you slowing down to make sure that you're not screwing up and that you're getting into the right processes to get you where you need to be. And I think when, from all the great things I've learned about yourself and how you're working with founders, you're kind of taking that approach is I want to learn who you are. I'm going to bring you into nature so I can decouple you from the noise and from the rest of the world, I'm going to slow you right down. And then we're going to get into some real work to figure out how to, how we can get you back on track. Because Certain things aren't working right now or you falling off the train and you're tired of throwing the track down to save yourself. So you're kind of working through that. And is that a fair kind of way of looking at it?

Speaker B: 100%, yeah. Um, I think that there is. When I bring founders into nature, whether it is at a group level and it's always very small and selected groups, or mostly at individual level, um, I think that what happens is first of all they do not have the screen in front of them. So there is already an embodied different relationship with the environment around them. The dopamine that they get from the screen is generally turned into. This is zero scientific. That's my interpretation of it might be right or wrong is turned into endorphin. And so you see how the type of speak. Again, going back to that, um, I had this conversation in San Francisco with an investor recently. We were talking about, ah, founders that are going at too high pace, which is not supporting them. And he, while we were talking, his leg was doing this all the time. And at some point I put my hand on his knee and I was like, did you notice this? And he looked at me and he was so embarrassed. And I said, um, that's your nervous system. Then we walked a little bit more. And the beautiful thing about San Francisco is that you're immediately nature. So it's easy to be completely lost in a groove. And then when we went back to his office, he was like, yeah, let's do this, let's do that together. Why don't you work with our founders? And then he said, what you notice about my knee? I had noticed for 39 years and now I'm just like stuck with the idea of I'm a partner at a great VC fund and I do not have the capacity, the awareness to notice this. And it's amazing to notice how people have the depth all of a sudden on what happens in their body, just because the stimuli that we would normally get are not there. And the other element that I think comes up in nature a lot is the capacity to allow. You know, the majority of entrepreneurs have a very strong calling for the challenge for the quest for, you know, the rough aspect, the wild aspect that is behind who we are in our society. Some of them, you know, the easiest way is to excel in AI so that they can then build a company around that. But, uh, when you bring them into nature, they can tap back into that source, which is that element of I'm pushing the boundary, but I'm not pushing the boundary because of my image, because of my ego, because it's fun, because I need it financially. I'm pushing the boundary because there is inside of me this thirst for more, because I am. I get, like, you know, my. I get goosebumps when I feel myself being exposed to those extreme environments where I see myself exposed to certain risk. And I was talking with someone who has been working with founders in, uh, the space for 30 years, and he asked me, wait, but, so I can't understand, like, how do you connect your role as rock climbing, ice climbing instructor to being a founder? Like, where is the. To being a coach? Where is the adrenaline in that? And I was like, to me, the experience of a founder who really decides to go deep and goes into those places that we are really afraid of going into is exactly the same that I feel when I'm with someone on a glacier. And, you know, they are facing the fear where it's. Fear of altitude, where it's. It's just extremely cold, there's huge wind. They're completely depleted in their body after, you know, seven hours on the edge. And that feeling of someone who commits to that, who says, I want to come alive, like, I am willing to step out of my comfortable CEO chair and step into what's really behind who I am and what's really holding me back and have that feeling of. That's a version of myself that I hadn't felt for 10 years. And it's coming out again. It's so adrenaline. It was funny because only because he asked me, I could really see this, this element with, with clarity. And sometimes I, I think that my role most of all is to. To bring together exactly these two elements. You know, the, the element of adrenaline and passion for risk and high rewards, together with the element of safety. The two of them separately in entrepreneurship do not function. Um, and I used to be a lot invested here. And I would then run into moments in my life where my body was telling me, this is too much. Like, I don't feel safe to do whatever you want me to do. And rock climbing in this. And, you know, this, uh, you know, helps you a lot. There's that moment in which you're climbing and your body says, I'm not going there. Like, there's no way I'm going to. I'm going to climb above that, uh, friend, because I just don't believe it's going to hold me. There is no, you know, I'm not going to do any other movement. And you just freeze and that happens also for entrepreneurs in many different ways. And so I learned over my personal career and my personal journey that safety was needed as much as that, you know, thirst for adrenaline and success and ambition and bringing that safety in the picture allows these people to really find, you know, that whole, uh, way of being that then brings them to being leaders in a full way. And I think yesterday we were talking about the concept of capacity for change, which is to me is exactly this concept is the capacity that you have for change is actually the capacity that you have to hold everything that comes through change. And this is exactly it. You know, on the one hand you have that desire for change and ambition, but on the other hand, if you are not able to hold what comes with that. And I see this a lot with young founders where they find themselves all of a sudden to have, you know, own equity in incredibly high valued companies. And if they don't bridge the gap between who they were two years ago and who they are today, that's, that's freezing for them. In practice, they're like, I'm living the best life. But inside there is such a misalignment that is creeping up in every direction. And so creating those pieces for change is one of the most essential pieces of the work.

Speaker A: Is this kind of tied into this idea of reframing your approach? Because I think when you take someone in nature, you teach them a different form of risk, which means there's a different form of safety. Is it reframing their patterns? Because I, uh, kind of have this feeling that you go from business or you're in startups and your mindset is just in one direction. I have to run fast, I have to accomplish all these things and I'm not good if I don't do them. And then that's all I am to anybody. I'm just that person that runs fast and goes forward and everything else doesn't matter. And then when I start to go outside the box, I feel stressed and I feel, oh, I'm not delivering. I got to get back into this side of the box and keep running at this pace. Um, are you trying to shift the way they think about themselves, but also the way they think of themselves? Ah, in the Metro, like, are you trying to help them eliminate a lot of the clutter, eliminate a lot of the stress points and reduce the safety net that they've been trying to build themselves? Like, is there a. I'm assuming this feels like a deep work. Like after this person leaves, they're in a smoking in a tent. And they've basically, uh, so relaxed that they're like, I don't even want to be a CEO anymore. But is there like, how do you, how do you reshape their mindset? So that one, I guess the biggest one for me is when you're done with work, would you invest in them? Do you now see them as, this can be a productive CEO? And I would support them and say, hey, look, I've worked six months with this person. You should invest. She's a rock star. She's come from here to here with me. Uh, she doesn't need me anymore. But she's going to crush it in her business because she has a different. She's getting her dopamine effect somewhere else, but she's managed that better. Is that, is that kind of how you, uh, see yourself?

Speaker B: Um, that's also a very good question. Uh, let's start from investing, because I think it was a, there were a lot of elements in it. So, um, the way I look at it at every person I start working with is quite a lot in the long term. So, you know, I look at their Alex, Matt, Mary project, not the company's project. So there could be people with whom I'm like, I see the potential in the individual, but I would never invest in the company they are building right now. And I tell them, and I tell them, look, part of our agreement is that I'm going to have shares in your next company because, and this is part of a growth that I see many times that it's, this is a concept that comes from relationships, romantic relationships, But I use with every relationship, which is when you meet, and this can be the meeting between me and my company, there is a first relationship, the so called relationship 1.0 of me never having done a lot of inner work or having done it spiritually and hence not really doubling down on what is actually behind the surface. Because, uh, everyone thinks that they've done a lot of work and at some point that comes to a break, I am not ready. Like, I'm not committed to radical self inquiry. I'm not committed to radical responsibility. I'm not committed into seeing myself as a creator in agency instead of as a victim. A victim because the market is not good, because my investor is not giving me a second round, whatever it is. And that's where the break happens. So that person needs to go through the breakdown and the collapse of the ego so that they can then redefine what relationship 2.0 means and build a company that will be Successful. That's generally the process that I get them through. It's not necessary that the company fails. So if the conditions are there for us to have this, you know, death of the ego and break down and then rebuild the relationship with the company, with the co founder, with the investors, then it could be that I can invest. And you know, I have been invested in a few of my founders, but a very, very small number because I believe that what I invest, I'm um, talking financial investments. What I invest into is the individual as a whole. And I've seen this in so many different ways. Like the way my work expands is so unpredictable. For me, there's, there's maybe a founder of mine, there's a CEO of mine who came in two months ago and asked me, I want to host a retreat with the majority of the, you know, leaders in the financial sector in my country with you on this island for five days and have this program. And I was like, I never saw myself doing this. We are going to be in wild nature. There's going to be decision makers there. And I'm, you know, this is because my investment in that person goes far beyond the investment in the company itself. There are these ripples, really networking effects that come out. And once my founders start to look at reality that way, it's another piece of that transition to value. It might be that they don't pay for something or they are not paid for something, but the value is there and wealth always follows that value.

Speaker A: I like that. It's a tough one because it's almost, um, an imbalance, but it's also like a cheat because you're working with a founder because they've come to you looking for some help with whatever that might be, spiritually, mentally, but mostly business focused. And then while you're working with that person, you can start to break through the integrity, uh, the drive, the vision. And in a way, you're helping support up a lot of those things. And you can see that their energy level is say a 10. And then over time it's back up to 100 there. You're getting nature involved. So that's going to help take away some of the misery and whatever else might be in the background. And so now they're feeling more about themselves, they're more alive. And now you can say, hey, uh, maybe you stage it as the second business, but maybe you might actually look at this and say, hey, I'm, I'm interested now because I can see that this business has now got the right leadership and you could probably get more people interested in it because one, you know more about that founder than any other person right now that has ever invested in that company. Because that's the hardest thing about investors. They never learn what anybody really is, who they are, what they're really trying to do. You can find out if they're dirty or not. I guess you'll find that out right through the conversation.

Speaker B: Absolutely. It's, it's the opposite as VC investments I always say, because instead of meeting someone for a couple of times and then doing a tech DD and then investing and having the first board meeting where you know, the, the honeymoon effect is over and you're like, what did we invest into here? You have six months of checking each other out and that's my due diligence. At the same time, you know, I call it asset like I call it talent as an asset class, meaning that I really look at the individual at large. I can see that there are founders who maybe are very early in their career and their company is not the way through which they'll express their full power. But at the same time the seed that I plant today, whether it's an agreement that they will give me shares in the next company on top of my usual payment, or whether it is shares in this direct company, it's something that moves at a larger level. The, and the ability to connect with that and to really understand that the talent of the individual is the real asset is, is what makes the difference. On top of that, you know what happens in the six months is that generally, because you said you mentioned energy being a 10 and then energy being 100, what I do is that regardless of where their energy is, we want to increase capacity because the capacity is limitation to everything that they build. Right? It's once they are at capacity, for whatever reason, they, they lack strategic, uh, vision, they lack the ability to enroll people, whether it's investors or employees, they lack the capability to really bring in the picture something that is unique and self standing and is not just like FOMO operated and they start to operate a lot out of fear years. And so what we do is we break down their capacity. We understand together, you know, how can we increase their capacity? Is the capacity blocked for whatever reason? Is it a burnout? What type of burnout is there? What type of energy leak is happening in their system so that we then can say, okay, today I'm holding space for this and I'm in the process of increasing that capacity so that tomorrow I can hold space for more. Because as you can imagine the company growing is just more, more, you know, from the task to the responsibility, but ultimately more in terms of the knowledge of the individual. Because the uh, the complexity of the systems, of the interests, of the interactions that will happen is, is higher and higher and so their capacity to understand themselves at a deeper level. And this is again the pace I always tell them, you know, the exponentiality in how they know themselves is essential. The business grows exponentially. If you don't grow exponentially as an individual, at some point there is going to be you linear, the business exponential. This gap is failure. Whether you are burnt out, whether you make the wrong choices, whether competitor comes in the market, you can't see it, and so on. And that exponentiality comes from them doubling down on that radical self inquiry. And to maybe go down, go back to something you mentioned in your question earlier, which was that sort of when they are talking about themselves it's all good and when they are by themselves it's all bad. You know, stepping in, into the denial element that is, you know, a foundation of some entrepreneurial communities. And I want to say some because I feel like there's a lot of people that are moving out of that and it's the polarized element of it's either everything is great and I'm in complete denial of who I am. And I literally was looking into my notes, um, for the work that I've done with a founder in the past two years and I read the first notes I wrote about our meeting and I was like, complete denial. Only thing that is not working in his life is the relationship with his ex girlfriend. And then we went deeper and we were like, how does it look like if we allow for these controversial aspects to actually emerge instead of running into the wall last minute? And here the work with groups come in because sometimes what happens with people is that they struggle to give themselves permission to experience those. They call them failures. And what is beautiful is that when they somehow open up about small ones, small failures with the group and the group reacts positively, this brings them back to a place where, oh, I actually can also have a positive judgment about this and it's not negatively connotated anymore. And so my system can create room for that. And the reason why you want to create room for that is that it's an information that could be strategic. Once a founder is in denial, they risk to not intake the information that they need to make decisions. So every time I hear them saying, oh, this advisor is saying this, but I don't believe them Our CFO is saying this, but she's in a burnout. I'm like, fair enough. Let's forget about the other party. But, uh, what is it here that you're not hearing because you're afraid of it? Because there is a fear behind that. And this information could be pivotal for your business. And because it comes from someone who has several limitations, you end up judging the person rather than hearing what serves you in this message.

Speaker A: That's, uh. My, uh, mind is thinking, um, of a conversation I had the other day. And this is pure, uh, gold. I'm going to use the gold button. Ding, ding, ding. Because this is good stuff. Um, but it was, uh, it was a conversation I was having, and it was around. And I'll change all the names for the sake of the story, but it was. I should have won this award. Uh, I was the best player for this award, and I should have won it, and I didn't. I got. Instead of getting mvp, I got most Improved. And, you know, the. The system's out to get me. They don't like me. They. They, uh, whatever. Everybody hates me because I'm the best and whatever else. And, you know, my fight to that, or fight back to that, was that. To exactly what you just shared, was that I never took the moment to think about what was actually going on, how come I didn't win. I'm going to look and take out the factors that people are against me because the world's against you all the time. That's, uh, how the world works. Right? Everybody's out there trying to figure out how they take every individual down. So if I take that element out and think maybe I didn't qualify enough, what skill sets was I not enabled? What did I not have that would have made me better? And if I start to look at it from that perspective, is that the person. If I analyze the person that did win, I could see that they had better social skills, they were better inept at, uh, working with people. They understood facts, they understood financials. They were also the best athlete. They were all these other things more rounded, well rounded. And then I looked at. It was just. I was just the best. I didn't have all these other skills. So if I want to be the CEO of a company in the future or I want to have that managerial role, I have to stop looking at it, that I'm just the best at one thing. I have to find that there's other elements that tie this together. How I treat my team, how I treat the people around me. How I, um, assert myself, how I'm innovative. There's so many skill sets that we forget about when we just think it's about generating revenue or generating this value. And that's all that matters. So I think when you take that layer back and start to analyze things more and figure out what skills can I work on to help build myself, it would help you kind of be more well rounded, but also move you forward in so many other areas. And it sounds like a lot of the work you're doing is helping people realize these other skill sets that they don't have, that they've locked off and that they're not just this one way machine, which is revenue, revenue, revenue, that there's other things that they have to tie into this metro station, because if they don't, they're the ones that are going to suffer the burnout because they're not going to be able to keep throwing the track down to keep that locomotive running.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I want to use what you just said to, to allow you to see how my work with rephrasing work. So you said something about, um, you said the world is against you because the world is against you, so someone will want to damage you. Right. What, what I often do is I do this, which means the first one who says it is the first one who hears it. And so when you say something that is, you know, out of. We always extremize what we are talking about. Often extremize. And so our words are not always precise. And sometimes we end up, uh, you know, painting a version of reality which may not be the one we want to live into. So when I hear the world is against you, I would really interrupt someone and be like, wait a second, that's your story. My world is not against me. How do you want to rephrase that? In a way that it is less overwhelming and you have more power. For example, there are people who might be against you. There are people who might not understand the power of collaboration, however. And then people freak out because they tell me, my clients, they freak out because they tell me, well, a second before you were telling me that I shouldn't be in denial and I shouldn't have this positive optimism that is just, in the end, negating reality. And now you're telling me that I should reframe things. And I love when that happens because it's the best example of how I see entrepreneurship as standing on a very fine line between the two poles. And standing in the poles is easy. Like our brain loves the Polarization, because it's easy to understand in the speed of our reality. If something is polarized, easy, black or white, uh, I don't need to invest time to understand it. And instead there is this third way. There is this fine line between the two poles. That's where I see entrepreneurs really being successful. And the fine line that I work the most on is that in between detachment from the outcome and responsibility, that leads to burnout. You know, with some people, they, they can't draw the line between what depends on them and what is outside of their sphere of influence. So the work we do is recognizing where does your sphere of influence end so that you can put 100% of yourself there and let go of the rest. So it's a process toward detachment. Other people instead are so detached from the outcome because maybe they've done a lot of work through Buddhism, Zen, um, even just coaching potentially, or therapy. But what they're missing is the full responsibility in themselves. So they come in and they're like, well, things are not going well. It's because of the market. It's because the investors are not understanding the potential we have. It's because my co founder, I thought he was like super technic and it's honestly not delivering enough. And there I see the victim, which we briefly discussed. I think the last time I see the victim triangle coming in and the individual not taking full. I see it because I'm a great victim. So I immediately, I'm like, yeah, I know it's very sweet to spend time there in the world where everyone is against you. And, you know, and then in that moment, I asked them, okay, I want to hear the rephrasing. You know, you are the creator. You are shaping the reality as it is. You have chosen this company, you have chosen this co founder, you have chosen this investor. Doesn't mean that you're going to Dennis in blame. I don't. Blame doesn't work in my system for some reason. Like, I must have lost that gene at birth. But I move into. Then how do I want to shape my reality? What am I committed to create? Once I know this, I'm in full agency. This reality around me depends on how I want to shape it. And it's honestly a really fine line. And that's to me, the mastery of, uh, entrepreneurship to move in between these two extremes and into these polarizations.

Speaker A: It's awesome. I think, uh, I was trying not to write notes, but I did it anyways. I can't help it. You can write all the notes. Um, I was shared that I need to look more forward and not write notes, but my brain is like, oh, my God, this is so good. Write it down. Don't forget it. But even though it's a recording, I.

Speaker B: But I also like that you write. Like, I think it creates, like, a bit of variety in what people see in the screen. Right? Like, there's you writing notes. Something is happening. It's not just our two face.

Speaker A: I should have a screen where I'm writing and you can see it pop up behind me. So then there'd just be, like, chicken scratch all around me. But, uh, you know, there's a. There's a couple of last things that I want to unpack before. Before we, um, get to the conclusion of the show. Put. And I think what I'm going to do is I'm almost, in a way, um, summarizing kind of what we've been talking about. But what I see is the kind of. The key to the discussion today is that entrepreneurs really need to double down on themselves. They need to take the time to learn more about what things they have control over what things they don't have control over what things that they can create spaces, safe spaces or workable, whatever that might look like. Um, but I think they need to spend more time understanding what they're about and what they're good at. And then they have to figure out how they can tie everybody else into that. They're a metro station. They're going to be high volume, high everything. How do I slow this down? How do I get to the 0.5, 0.75 speed? And then from there, I think the biggest thing that, uh, you know, and I'm going to try to use this even more, is the reframing side is they want. Someone says something and they hear it. To your point, it seems to have. I've got rid of it. It's gone. Doesn't matter anymore. Doesn't matter that it was the harshest, meanest, worst thing I ever said or made no sense, is that, uh, taking that moment and saying, hey, could you reframe that and figure out where there's the value for both of us in this conversation, where you can reframe what you just said and make him think about it, I think that'll change the direction of how someone is doing something, is reframing the output, reframing the value, and try to better understand what they just did. You know, in our minds, we're calculating everything we say because we're podcasting and we're trying to bring an element of, I wouldn't say surprise, but you're bringing an element of here's what I can share, here's what I know, and you're calculating that output. Um, so I think most of our time is in that. But how do I start to reframe my questions or my comments so that I can bring value, value each time I have that discussion? Um, and I think the other one is, and, and this one, I would ask, is that what you've learned from founders, what are maybe one or two things that you think that they should bring more to the game, more to the environment, more to their space? Is it empathy? Is it, um, empathy? You know, I'm trying to think accountability. Um, like what, what think things. Do you say a founder should kind of, while they're in this whole refrain state of mind and trying to re. Understand how they're pushing information out, are there other emotions that they should be more, um, bringing to the table and being better at Mhm.

Speaker B: I mean, I think that even before then talking about the specific emotions, I think the concept of emotions themselves is something where they're highly disconnected from and the moment in which they find that connection within themselves to get in touch with the emotions. It's really interesting. I work with someone who, because of a very tough childhood, has put emotions down and has shut them down. And we were talking about hiring and he felt very blocked in terms of enrolling people into the company, even though the company is doing extremely well, so they have a lot of demand. And we realized that he was unable to tap into empathy. And so these people would feel it during interviews and so they would be like extremely excited about joining and then meeting him and being like, don't want to do this. And the process of him tapping into those emotions with all the care that is needed helps him to get forward. And one of the easiest way, you know, because if you tell someone now, you're going to tap into your emotions more. What does that mean? I'm very practical in how I work. You know, one of the things that I start from is asking them about their relationship with the four pillars of growth, which are money, power, identity and purpose. And most of the times, you know, when it comes to money, they have a typical founder relationship with it. And so what we work mostly on is that, uh, concept of take money out of the picture, take value into the picture, acknowledge that when value is there, money is there and that becomes your mechanism for wealth. When it comes to power, it's amazing because they Always say, I'm not really interested into power. And then we start talking about it, and we start seeing all the pieces. We start to see especially power dynamics. I always tell them, you don't want to have vertical power dynamics inside of your company. You want to have horizontal power dynamics where you know you're not above someone because of your title. So you don't have hierarchies based on function, but hierarchies based on value. And that element of power, that idea of how to hold power without the shame of, oh, my God, it's dominance. You know, the distinction between power and dominance becomes key. That identity, which is generally one of the elements in which we work the longest, which is its, uh, identity is related to legacy, and it's. What is it that represents me ultimately? And what are the deaths of my identity that I have gone through or that I need to go through because I'm convinced that I look like xyz and I'm attached to that. And the more, I always say, the more times you die different deaths of your identity, the farther you will rise as a leader, because you will really detach yourself from the idea of, I am someone who never does a wrong hire. I am someone who never misses a deadline. And then you realize, I can be someone who misses a deadline and be more successful. So those little deaths create a lot of freedom within them in their identity and purpose. Sorry, purpose is the connection with legacy. Um, you know, with many founders, they immediately say, either they're in impact, so they're big in purpose, or they're not in impact, and they're like, whatever purpose. And I'm like, in the end, your purpose is the alignment between who you are and your values and your actions. If you have that, you will feel that you're in your purpose. You will feel that you're riding your purpose. And there we start to talk about legacy, meaning. Can I zoom, um, out from my little story of my little life and my little daily challenges and. And imagine what's the legacy I'm leaving behind, because that becomes a driver, an incredible driver for them on a daily basis. So this is how I generally start to bring emotions in the picture.

Speaker A: I like that. You know, I think in a way, you got to break somebody down to build them back up, but you're allowing them to break themselves down by better understanding who they are and the elements that make them who they are. And sometimes they're hard to hear, uh, because like you said, they're in a box. They created this box, and it's so small and they don't see the world as much as they think they do. And once you start to get in there and work with them, it opens them up and, you know, it's kind of like you're a hidden gem because maybe they're not out talking about it and they're not saying, hey, you know what? Six years ago I was this, uh, in a box, tiny box, um, metro station, smashing trains because I didn't want to be in there conducting. And you know, after today, I've gone through so much personal change that now everything flows and everything works. And I think really the element to all of this is creating better flow. And I think that's really the, the whole metro station is about flow. And I think the last element I'm going to throw in, uh, because one fantastic conversation, you have to go back and listen to episode 162. Because I listened to it again yesterday and today and I was, I'm like, this is so good. My God, why don't we talk about this more? And today we've really just kind of extenuated that uh, conversation. So, uh, Katharina, thank you. It's been awesome getting to chat with you. And the last thing I'll throw out there was when you were talking about how the food you eat, how much that makes a difference to the entrepreneur. And you can judge a lot of things. And seeing somebody eat a Big Mac versus a home cooked meal can really change the dynamics of how somebody looks at themselves, how they treat themselves and how that business or that person can generate the energy it needs to drive all day. And I think you had a really good analogy with that and a great question to ask founders. And I think that there's little improvements we all make every day. And I think that's one that people should, uh, really focus on, which is, uh, much self care.

Speaker B: I love that. I love the idea that you're going to have your self cooked meal today. We were discussing this yesterday. Yeah, I mean I think we discussed yesterday about this data point, which is that uh, 80% of the information that goes through ourselves goes from the body to the mind and only 20% from the mind to the body. But we spend all of our time in our mind. We believe that we only have the mind. And sometimes when I see this is about. Also you were asking me yesterday, how do I support someone in making change and to make that lasting right to not. What I hate is the idea that someone works with me for six months when or a year, and then once I'm gone. The effect is gone. Whereas what I want to activate is mechanisms that allow them, you know, to be on a higher platform during that and hence that change, to be something that is intrinsic in the individual. And I think that once we trace those elements back to the body, and there's a lot of science behind that, but ultimately, it's really the understanding of how our nervous system is placed, playing a role in this game. And it's. It's subtle, but it's sometimes the only way to slow down people or to allow them to see the power potentially of change. Um, in that sense, I think the. The element of the body and, you know, questions about how their sex life is, how the relationship with food is. Is allowing them to start seeing themselves, not as silos in between. You know, me at home with my wife, me at work, me in the gym, me with friends playing football. But, you know, the continuity of the questions I have, the challenges I have, you know, the element, the masks with which I show up in these dynamics, and how do I work across this whole element, which is my being?

Speaker A: I love it. It's fantastic. Katerina, thank you so much for sharing. I hope everybody got lots out of this, because there are so many great elements. Uh, I've broken down a few of them, which, of course, um, we'll reiterate, uh, in the next, we'll go for the trio. But I think, um, you've been very helpful.

Speaker B: Like, I was thinking about last session that we had, which was, I think, a year and a couple of months ago, and I realized so much has changed in the outer world and in the content of my work. And every time we speak, we're like, well, this could last for hours. And I like how this time it wasn't about my story, because often when I do podcast episodes is a lot about, you know, how I brought together the pieces, but it was really about the content, which I think is, you know, for people, is even more exciting.

Speaker A: No, I appreciate that. And it is. It's, uh, it's a huge value to hear how you connect with founders, but how you help them connect with themselves. And I think that makes a big difference. I think in this run and gun world, uh, of moving too fast. We need to figure out how to slow down and take the elements in that are going to help us find the right value and help others along the way, uh, find our emotion and find that equal balance. But. And I think you're doing a fantastic job, so I want to say thank you once again. And, uh, we look forward to getting to chat with you again. And we'll say another year. So in 12 months we'll keep cutting it down until it will be, uh, almost doing daily podcasts. But uh, it's been fantastic speaking with you. And uh, thanks again for joining us.

Speaker B: This is amazing. Thank you so much. Very good quality stuff.

Speaker A: Thank you.

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