Ep.184 The Harsh Truth About Retirement: Why Wealth Managers Won’t Save You | Graham Rowan on Impact Investing

Speaker A: Before we kick off today's conversation, let me introduce you to our guest because this one's going to be a masterclass in winning the right investments. Graham Rowan is a former Texas instrument director turned global investor and author on a mission to democratize access to high growth founder led companies. He's raised over 34 million for innovative founders, leads the insider investor club of high net worth investors worldwide, and has spoken at stages like the United Nations, Harvard and the World Wealth Creation Conference alongside legends like Brian Tracy and Jim Rogers. Graham also hosts the Diary of High Net Worth Investor podcast, sharing insights from leading investors, founders and fund managers. In today's episode, we'll dive into how to win over great founders for investment, which ideas are truly worth backing in the art of connecting capital with innovation, and maybe even explore some unexpected corners of the private investment world. This one you don't want to miss. Welcome back to the show. I'm Jeffrey JP Pavan and today our, uh, guest is Graham Rowan, investor, author and host of Diary of a High Net Worth Investor. He's helping founders secure game, changing capital and guiding investors into the most exciting private equity opportunities. Graham, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thank you very much, Jeffrey. Great to be here.

Speaker A: I'm really excited today, Graham, to chat with you. And maybe I say that about every guest because I'm always excited at the opportunity that I get to talk with you people and share and learn more about, uh, kind of how they tackle this market. But today the great thing about yourself is that not only you're an author and written four books and you've got a fantastic podcast that really dives into the whole world of money, but it's because of your background in tech and kind of how you've just shifted so much into this private equity space. And you know, when you look at private equity today versus what it was 10, 20 years ago, there was never really a position for early stage investing. People kind of poo pooed on it and they just like, you know, I'm going to wait until this is something big and come see me when the company's worth 500 million. Then I'll think about considering it. And now it's shifted so much that people are looking for money managers to say, hey, I want to get into this space. There's so much money here, there's so much opportunity. Can you kind of weed through all of this? And I know we're going to get into that today. And it's, you know, very exciting because again, we all jump in at different sectors, but you're Kind of being that umbrella to say, you know what, from a money manager perspective, this is how I want to tackle this. And it seems like it's going really well from that perspective. So we'll dive into that. But before we do, we'd love to hear more about you. Your background, your story, and one thing about you that nobody would know.

Speaker B: Okay, uh, well, I guess the first thing I have to say is I was a great disappointment to my family. I, uh, was meant to go into the family law firm and uh, I got my A levels. I went to university to study law and it bored the pants off me. And uh, I thought, there's no way I can stomach this. So I actually left university at 19, got a job running a photography studio. And they really liked me. I like them. I love being in a small business. So, uh, uh, they appointed me as a director. They made me a shareholder. So by the time I was 20, my friends were all still at university and I was actually running a company. We expanded it to three outlets and then I got my first lesson in business when the majority shareholder sold it to an owner operator and I was like out on the street at 21. So that was an interesting lesson. So, um, I actually, this was in, I was in Northeast England, which at the time was a bit, you know, economically, uh, back, but backwards. So, uh, I went off to London to seek my fortune, um, ended up as a driving instructor in Camden Town with all these people trying to kill me. And eventually I managed to get a job in a major national newspaper in their, uh, information technology department. I knew nothing about it and computers took an aptitude test, passed it. Uh, they took me on and that was the start of a 25 year corporate career. Uh, I ended up as a director of Texas Instruments, big American company. I ran a software division selling multimillion dollar billing systems to telecoms companies back in the 1990s, if anyone remembers the privatization of, uh, the Baby Bells and all that sort of thing. So I spent the 1990s doing that, made a load of money, um, but I didn't really have the inclination or the time to invest it. So the colleague said I should get a professional wealth manager. So I gave them all my money, they put it all in the NASDAQ. And in the late 90s that was quite a good place to be. I would go to bed and then wake up 2 or $3,000 richer the next day. Um, I thought, this is pretty cool. And every year in June, I think it was, I go back for my portfolio valuation and they tell me how close I was getting to my magic retirement number. Um, uh, and then we got to June of 2000 and we got through the millennium without the planes falling out the sky or anything. Um, but I noticed that my portfolio had gone down about 10 or 12%. So I said, I don't know about this guys, I'm not an expert, but this doesn't look so good. Should we take some money off the table here? And they said, don't be such a wimp. Can't you recognize a minor correction in a raging bull market when you see one? So I said, okay, you're the experts. Went off on my travels again. Came back in June 2001, by which time of course the whole dot com thing had, ah, crashed. They'd lost me, I think about £180,000 in 18 months. Then they took me into a little room and said, unfortunately Mr. Rowan, these losses take your net worth below the level at which we look after clients, so we're going to have to let you go. So I got fired by my own wealth manager for the losses they had made in my portfolio. And I had to go and explain to my wife that, um, you know, we've just lost a whole bunch of our life savings. And that was the painful, expensive lesson that got me started on the idea that I need to take personal control of my financial future because there ain't anyone else out there that's got me at the top of their agenda. So that's how I started what's now been a 25 year career both in business and investing for myself. Uh, but it was a sharp and rather painful lesson that I had to learn.

Speaker A: It's a great story because I think a lot of the times the lessons we learn tend to be the ones that hit us the hardest when we're least expecting it. And it's how we recover from those that really make a dent in the future of your life. I guess what's running through my mind is that at that exact moment in 2001, uh, when um, the crash was occurring, um, I think I was just working my way through, um, that kind of dot com and lost. I was doing a lot of trading with um, we'd just go down to the bank and for some reason there was a crew of people that were uh, day traders that were all hanging out there. So we'd all go for coffee, learn what they were trading in and uh, so I started to, you know, mirror along following, dump into all of these different stocks. It's funny how a Lot of them were duds, they just were pumping dumps the whole time and no one knew what they were at the time. But man, did everybody jump all over that gravy train. I just remember making uh, a lot of money paying for my schooling and think this is the heyday, this stuff is awesome. Um, and then uh, I was, of course the crash occurred and ended up uh, being over leaned for so much cash because at the time I was traveling and didn't expect any of this to happen. And it was within like 24 hours that the whole market just tanked. And uh, I was going to school and all of a sudden now I went from paying for my school to now not having any money to pay for my uh, my next semester. I was in the hole by 40,000 or something and I was like, this is crazy. How did this just all happen overnight? And to that money manager's comment that they said to you is that how can you not see this in a bull market? And I think there was a lot of retail investors that were really uh, fluffing up the market and that was where the unknowns were of how the data works. And I'm not sure the data's got any better today on where retail sits versus obviously your commercial traders and how they're operating. But it is, ah, it's a pretty much um, a wild west. And it doesn't seem to be uh, getting any improvements.

Speaker B: No, but I think the real thing I took from it regardless of the individual stocks and the performance was um, that you really cannot rely on anybody else. I don't care how wealthy you are, I don't care how big an advisory team you've got. None of them wakes up in the morning with you at the top of their agenda. So you have to take personal control. Um, even if you're just like the conductor of the orchestra, you know, you've got to understand what's going on here because you know, these guys have all got agendas, they've all got products they're pushing, um, and you've got to be able to see through that. I think that my big mission, I'm not doing a rant yet, but you know, the lack of financial education in our schooling system, our college system, in our workplaces is terrible. You know, people get to 21 years old, they're 50 grand of student debt, they've got some useless degree, um, and they know nothing about managing a household budget, you know, let alone investing. Um, so it doesn't surprise me that so many people are in A mess. I can't remember the latest stats about, you know, 45% of people have less than $1,000 in the bank or something, you know, but they are scary statistics. And this is all based on the lack of financial education and the lack of ownership of your financial circumstances.

Speaker A: I, I agree 100 with that, I think. And that also layer that in with risk and how, uh, the world manages risk. You know, you talk a lot about, in a lot of your different interviews too, is that, you know, it's asset management. It's, it's managing those assets, it's figuring out how to find value. I think one of the investments you made was in wealth management transfer. You know, this is a big fear of people. It's the red tape that gets thrown onto everything and how do I manage through all of these pieces. And I think, you know, we, uh, maybe desensitized to how the world really works. But, you know, you're bucketed into one thing that says be the best at one thing. So everybody pushes themselves to be the best at one thing. And then when it comes to all these other layers of life, you, you have to go to other people and hope that they're going to guide you the way they can. But if I have one client or I have a hundred thousand clients, how can I possibly be managing what you have and what you're doing, uh, without having to trigger massive systems to control it and manage it so that I can move assets quickly? And again, I'm not paying attention to you and paying attention to my bottom line. And I think that's where the tough thing is. And you're right. There's so much more opportunity out in the market to educate yourself today through AI and everything else, to learn and figure out how can I manage a few of these things or at least have some knowledge that makes me dangerous, but not enough that's going to fail me every step of the way. So I think there's some middle ground to support these initiatives to build some wealth and not lose, uh, it all overnight.

Speaker B: Yeah. And one of the things I always recommend to, uh, the members of my investor club is as you increase your wealth over time, you also need to upgrade your advisory team. Uh, you know that accountant that started you off when you were first starting your business and you were doing 100k turnover, now that you're doing 5 million or 10 million, he's not the right guy. You know, you need someone else who's used to operating at that level. And there's two factors here, because first of all, you don't know what you don't know, but even scarier, you don't know what your advisors don't know. Uh, and I found as I've become more of a global citizen, you know, I've lived in Britain, France, Montenegro, now Portugal, um, trying to get things like international tax advice on, you know, if I get a capital gain when I exit this company over here in Britain, what does that do for me in Portugal, you know, and where do I have to declare that? You know, how did I get that? In my pension? What happens when I die with inheritance? You know, these things are getting so complicated now that you've got to put some time and some mental bandwidth into them, or else you could. You could make great returns on the companies you invest in, then lose half of it to the government if you're not careful.

Speaker A: And it's so true. And it's happening more and more every day. The government's just as equally an opportunist on figuring out how to make money off of your money, um, either through your passing or through your transactions. And I think a lot of the time we don't pay attention to them because we think that the government's there to support us, not take our money. But, you know, in today's world, the economics are growing so fast that the government has to find ways to make money, and that just happens to be off of the people that work for them. Like, I think the US Government on taxation, you know, there's obviously this big spin on tariffs. You know, it's less than 1% of the entire US budget, this entire tariff project that's causing the world to go crazy. Less than 1% of their GDP, and it sounds like it's worth 99%. And I think it's something like 80% of the dollars that go into the US government are actually off the people. Um, if not a bit higher, that's people taxed. So we're so worried about tariffs, but it's such a small budget to this entirety of it all to us. Obviously, if we brought in $5 billion in this quarter of tariffs, we'd be pretty happy. But when it comes to being less than 1% of your number, who cares? But I think we go back to what you're talking about on education side. It is shocking that we don't. And, you know, I get it's numbers. People are afraid of numbers. My brain only cares about numbers. But it's, you know, that's again, a limited factor. But how do you change that? So that in educators it's not this fear of, uh, you have to learn how to add, you have to learn how to balance a balance sheet, like make this stuff work. Why is that a fear? And why did we create it as a fear? Why do we make the governments to feel like in the U.S. uh, you know, it's the laissez faire, it's the Heisman I call it. They're just giving you the push. And in Canada, we're tree huggers. We're like government. We want you to hug us and guide us through all this. But in the U.S. so like, don't touch me, I'm busy trying to make money. And you should be doing the same because you're not going to make it. So it is, um, a contrast. But how do you get more educators to start believing in the people and educating them so that, uh, we don't end up in these spots where, you know, like you said earlier, 45% of the population, um, are at a significant loss because they don't have less, they have less than $1,000 to their name.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's, ah, uh, I think it's probably above my pay grade to fix it. I think, I think the, the problem is you wait for government to do something like this, you'll wait an awful long time. Um, I think what we have to try and do is within our own communities, within our own sphere of influence, we have to do what we can to educate people and point them to resources. As you said, there's so much available free these days. Um, there's really no excuse for not being at least at a, you know, a middle ground level on understanding investing and finance. Uh, I think we just have to push people in that direction because, yeah, sadly, and we're seeing a lot of this in Britain as well, people, younger people in particular, seem to want the government to do more and more for them. Um, and you know, that's such a twisted mindset, you know, because you're never going to get great quality service from a government, you know, so you've uh, got to take personal ownership and try and for us, for those of us in the financial world, I think our duty, and that's why I think we do things like these podcasts, that's why we do newsletters and all the rest of it, we do live events, is to try and spread the word. There's so much happening now in the world. There are so many great opportunities and there are some pretty serious threats and risks and you've got to be on top of them, if you want to come out the right side of history both for yourself. But I would say decisions you take in the next four or five years will affect not just you, but your children and your grandchildren children. Because we're going through such a massive change like the world's never seen before. You know, we can talk about AI, we can talk about digital assets, etc. But the financial world is changing rapidly. Um, certainly faster than any time in my lifetime. And I'm coming up to 70 years old. Um, you know, this is a time where you've really got to pay attention. You've got to be on, uh, podcasts like this. You've got to be learning all this stuff and applying it and sharing it with everyone in your own family and your own circle.

Speaker A: You know, you were talking with, um, uh, his name was Tim Brock. And um, it was an interview you just recently did. And what I liked about it was that, you know, it was all about wealth management. But I think again, this is something they should be educating teenagers, uh, youth about is that, you know, if you take a loan and you have to pay it back, you know, you're not going to get your first job, you're not going to be making a million dollars a year. Does a million dollars even look like, and how does that work into your lifestyle? But you know, when you're talking about the different ways of segmenting investments, you know, you mentioned that of course there's the, um, angel investor and where they come in, and there was the different plateaus. At 5 million, you become a buyer versus just a retail investor and, and up into these different stages. And these are the stages you make money and where you can invest. You know, what I liked about it is that it really broke down the understanding of it. And you know, today you're building a platform where you have investors and you're finding all of these great fantastic deals that are out in the market and you're weeding through them and you're really a money manager. Um, true and true. At least that's how I understand it from all the things I've learned about yourself. And I think that there is a lack of understanding of what a money manager really does, um, and how you build trust and how you get people to. 1 want to get into this segment of early stage investing. It is high risk, uh, because there's a lot of scams, there's a lot of, uh, businesses that just want a paycheck. They don't really want to build something. So in this process that you've been working through, how did you really take that money manager approach and layer that into early stage investing?

Speaker B: I think it was a voyage of discovery for my own sake in my own portfolio. I started with all the usual stuff. Um, but then I realized that, okay, yes, The S&P 500 will give you, you know, seven point something percent a year. Uh, but because I'd lost that money with the wealth manager, I was in middle age, but I was kind of behind the game. I was, I wasn't where I needed to be. So I had to look for things that were going to help me to accelerate returns above and beyond the average. Um, and it was looking into things like that where I discovered that. Actually I used to think that things on the public stock market were the thing. You buy something that's just IPO'd and it's going to go up and up and up. Well, these days the IPO is almost the end of the process. That's when the founders are kind of getting an exit. The value creation happened before that. And one of the key books that really taught this to me was, um, uh, everyone's familiar with Rich Dad, Poor dad, but the follow up book that Kiyosaki did called Rich Dad's Guide to Investing, he listed out the various types of investor. Um, and the, the top two layers were the inside investor who was getting into private equity deals when companies were still in private hands. And then you become the ultimate investor when you actually sell your inside shares to the public through an IPO or a trade sale. Um, and that sort of got me thinking. Ah, ah, right, yes. And because he's into oil wells and gold mines and all the rest of it. So that's when I started realizing that companies are staying private for longer, they're adding more value while they're in private hands and therefore you have to get into it. The problem is most of the really strong deals happen within personal networks. Um, they're not listed all over the public domain. So you've got these big funds that you can go into that might spread across 100 different companies. But that's kind of playing that game where, okay, 10% of them will do well and 50% will fail and whatever. Um, and again, that all dilutes the returns to a much more modest level. The ones that are really shitting the lights out are where you get into that insider network. You find these great deals, you get in early and then you just watch the value increment over time. So I spent a lot of time really just traveling around, meeting people, building my personal network, um, which I've been doing for at least 15 getting on 20 years now. And you just never know what's going to come up through that. I just got an email this morning from my accountant introducing me to some guy in India who's got this amazing business. So you never know where these things are going to come from. But you have to build your personal network. Um, it's the old cliche about your networks, your net worth and so on. But in private equity investing that really is true. It is a private club and you have to get into the inside. So what I do through inside investor club is effectively I open that kimono and allow people into my network and my opportunities. Now we're not a fund, so in that sense I'm not really a money manager because we encourage, uh, direct investment. So I'm introducing them to the founders, they're meeting the founders. I do interviews like this with the founders and then they become a shareholder directly. So they are really, uh, connected to and engaged with that company. And what I find is that people really relish that, you know, because normally investing is just bits of paper or it's all digital these days, you know, so you buy shares in Amazon or Google. There's no engagement or interaction at all. You engage in a private company, you get to meet the team, you get to meet the founders, you go on the journey with them and that's really exciting and ultimately, hopefully very rewarding.

Speaker A: Hiring is hard. The stakes are high. The wrong hire can cost time, momentum and money. That's why we built Hardboot. We work with founders and investors to find the people who move the needle in sales, marketing and product. Every candidate goes through our 50 point inspection process. So you don't just fill a role, you build a foundation. Your business is our business. We want you to win. Learn more@hardboot inc.com. I love that and it's a good way to look at it. And I think the principles of money managing seems to be how you've guided yourself through this, um, by building your network, getting access to the secret deals or the off table deals. And I think those are the things that really make a portfolio shine because you're getting, you're taking advantage of the network you've built, the people you've met along the way. You do your due diligence, you do the work that says, ah, you know, this is what it takes to, to be a founder. I want to invest and we'll get into a little bit of Those types of criteria that you go through now when you're, um, tying all of these investors together, you know, someone that you said, if there's 45% of people are less than $1,000, how does someone start looking into this space? Because there's a high fear, right? They're like, okay, I've got 10 grand, I've got 100 grand, I've got some cash that I want to do something different with. Um, I go and give it to a money manager, maybe they lose it. So I have a fear of that. But I really like this early stage private equity space where I can get into something that could be an Airbnb or an Uber next. You know, where does that start? What does someone do to kind of, um, not maybe just work with you, but like, work into this space? Is it just watch YouTube videos and you're set and you're ready to go start dumping money into a platform? Or how do people approach this equity space?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a challenge really, because, um, firstly, we can only really deal with what the regulator calls sophisticated or high net worth people. So obviously the benchmarks vary. In the UK, it's relatively low. You have to earn 100,000 a year, or you have to have a quarter of a million of investable funds outside your home and pension. So the first qualifier is, do you hit that level of technically called high net worth? Um, then you have to have kind of an open mindset. And I think one of the reasons why a lot of our members are actually entrepreneurs themselves is they're used to taking risk, managed risk. Um, and therefore, when I talk to them about someone else's business, you're already halfway there. Because they know what it's like to be a business owner. They, uh, know the challenges, they know the upsides. The way I always describe it is that, you know, compared to being an employee, say the highs are higher and the lows are lower. You know, so we've all been there. You know, can I make payroll this week? Can I make VAT this quarter? Um, you know, so you've got all those kind of things going on. So if they're already an entrepreneur, they get the basic concept, and then it's more a case of explaining this particular business to them. Uh, the other kind of people we often get are, uh, property investors who've built a big portfolio. Um, but now they've realized there's lots of new regulations and taxes. It's not so easy to make money from real estate. So they've got a lot of Equity, but they're wondering what to diversify into. So they tend to say, okay, I could sell a property, take out my equity, put it into two or three of these company opportunities to get some diversification. And then it's a case of them picking and choosing which ones they're going to go with. So, um, generally it's that kind of thing. Occasionally we'll get. People just want to go through a learning process and I do a bit of coaching and mentoring. But on the whole, it's people who've already achieved some wealth. They're either in business with a profitable business or they've sold it and they've got the capital, uh, or they have a property portfolio and they're happy to sell down a bit of real estate and use that money to come into this kind of world. So, um, broadly, that's where most of our membership comes from. So they tend to be people in their kind of mid-40s to mid-60s age range. Already done a bit, achieved a bit of success in life, uh, now looking to just broaden out their investment base and really to move the dial. Because these days, if you're only getting 7% by the time you allow for inflation and currency debasement and all the other things, you're just about holding your head above water. Um, you've really got to have something in your portfolio that's giving you 10, 15, 20% if you're going to actually get ahead and make a real difference.

Speaker A: No, I agree with that. I love that you mentioned, um, previously as well on different ways to allocate and what allocations would look like? Um, can you maybe describe how someone would look at their portfolio and decide, okay, I've got a bid in stock, I've got a bid in maybe real estate, or I've got some over here, maybe some Bitcoin, and I need to diversify and maybe this is, um, a higher risk but more enjoyable space. To your point that you get to do something that's innovative and get into working with founders and maybe you're a founder yourself, so you want to allocate into this, but you're kind of fearful that you're not sure. But so how much would you. And how do you look at allocation from that perspective? And then to kind of follow this up, and you mentioned coaching and advising. Are they recommended to do the same and should they do the same?

Speaker B: Okay, well, my starting point for some of this is that you don't have to be a billionaire to think like a billionaire. And if you look at uh, the asset allocation of some of the wealthiest, best advised people on the planet. Planet. What you'll find is that there are three asset classes that tend to dominate real estate, the public stock markets and private equity. And most of the allocations I see are roughly 25% into each of those. So they've got their boring but safe bricks and mortar, they've got the S&P 500 type stuff. And then they've also got 24 to 28% in private equity, usually split between funds and direct investing. And there's a very interesting, uh, report came out this year. It's the Capgemini wealth report, if anyone wants to get hold of that. And what that is showing is you touched on the wealth transfer earlier on. We're just starting now, this massive wealth transfer from my baby boomer generation through to um, you know, people in their 50s or even younger than that. Um, and what those people are saying, those Inheritors of wealth, 81% of them are saying they're going to change their wealth manager because they want a wider range of options, which would include private equity and Bitcoin and things like that. So there's a huge kind of generational shift in mindset going on anyway, um, but the smart money is already about 25% in private equity. So what I say to my members is, you know, let's have that as a target, somewhere around 20 to 25%. And within that have at least five different companies, so no more than 5% into each company. And then you've also got your property, you've got your real, uh, estate. But I also recommend some into gold as a pure, uh, preserver of wealth and some into Bitcoin, which I just regard as such an asymmetric risk. You know, I think the, um, yes, in 2010, 2015, I would hear and listen to all these criticisms of Bitcoin, but hey, you know, we're another 10 years on from there now. It's really becoming mainstream. We've got the ETFs, we've got, you know, I think one of the things that, uh, we perhaps haven't got time to get onto this, but one of the biggest changes happening now, which is so underreported and underappreciated, is the fallout from the genius act and the creation and the focus of Stablecoins, uh, that I think for me is another Bretton Woods, 1944 Nixon Gold Window, 1971 type event. And I think we'll look back on 2025 as a pivotal year in the global financial system, um, and we could probably have a separate conversation about the impact of that. But my point is, if you look at the best advised people, they've got roughly a quarter of their portfolio in this stuff. And I think there's no reason why you and I shouldn't be the same. So don't put all the chips on red at the casino, but 20, 25%, uh, when you've got all those other safer investments if you like. Uh, I think it's a fair number.

Speaker A: I agree and I like that. I think it's a good approach and that can be diversified through a couple of different assets. Not just obviously, um, the private equity, but kind of layer in some of these innovative side, like you mentioned Bitcoin and, and other uh, assets. And I'm sure there's going to be a, a meme coin comeback or one of those, um, uh, what was the, uh, the other asset that. Digital assets they're gonna probably make. Yeah, exactly. They're probably going to make a comeback, I guess at some point. But I think the world is just looking for assets to invest in. Right. Like when you see, uh, a painting that sells at 50 million over value, um, I think maybe there's, I wouldn't say a lack of understanding or a lack of care. But the reason that asset keeps going up in significant value is one, it's unique, it's the demand level. But it's also that when I set the stage that this is worth 50 million, I now have 50 million that I can go to at any point in time that someone's willing to pay for that one unique asset. And that to me is cash. That won't change. So I think that there's a, uh, fear that cash will lose its value, which it has, and it shifts a lot. If I own a painting that's worth 50 million, that 50 million will always be 50 million because it's that unique set painting. And I can go in with like having a check that's always cashable at 50 million at the bare minimum. So there is such a value that we can put into these assets, um, or that at least the rich are finding, um, uber rich when you're doing that type of transaction. So I think there's a lot of value that we're kind of maybe misunderstanding or why people are doing what they're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I wrote a white paper recently called uh, I'm a Millionaire, why Do I Feel Poor? Um, and I think, um, one of the things you can do is try and measure things like your House value in ounces of gold rather than in dollars or pounds. Um, because a lot of people, you know, they bought a house 20 years ago for 100,000. It's now worth a million, so they think they're rich. But the reality is if you did it in ounces of gold, you see that it hasn't really moved much at all. You just need more worthless dollars to buy the same amount of bricks and mortar. So you are fooling yourself. They call it the wealth effect, and politicians love it because you think you're getting richer, but you're not really. They're just robbing you by currency debasement and inflation. So, yeah, try valuing your assets in something that you know is fixed, like ounces of gold, uh, and then you get a very different view of where the wealth and the value really lies.

Speaker A: I like that. That's actually a, a very smart way of, of looking at the value that you carry. And I think there, there's one other piece I would add to that is that, um, the cost of living, the cost of buying that replacement home, uh, you know, a million dollars is great, but if it costs you a million dollars to buy the next place, you literally just moved a million dollars to a million dollars. If that million dollars left you with 400,000 in your pocket and you were able to buy a $600,000 home that was equivalent or would have the same upside value in 20 years, then of course you're going to be able to transfer and make some value off that, depending, again, how the government taxes you and everything. So there is, again, this all comes back to managing your wealth and managing the way you diversify, portfolios, diversify, uh, the allocations of spend and money that you're moving into different directions. And I think back in the day, they always told founders and people to diversify, make sure you diversify. And I think there was this. Personally, there was a lack of understanding what diversified meant. Like, if I invest in pharma, uh, through the stock market, and I invest in tech, does that mean I'm diversified? You're still investing in the stock market. Diversification means you're investing in the stock market. You're allocating into real estate, you're allocating into other forms of assets that can either hold value or change value over time. And I think there's a lot of that learning, um, that you don't want to get at 50 or 70, you want to get early on at 20. And maybe there's a lot of courses that you should be taking and Advancing that knowledge and doing that everywhere you possibly can. Because I think that there's a lot of value in learning from others that have gone through this.

Speaker B: Absolutely. But, uh, I would add to that, just be careful who you learn from. Make sure it's not some academic institute. Make sure it's people who've been there and done it. Whether you're a business person looking for advice or whether you're an investor, you know, you've got to deal with people who've actually got the scars and been there and done it because, you know, the best way of accelerating your progress is to learn from other people's mistakes. Um, and, and, you know, if you're just an academic, clearly you, you haven't actually had that kind of experience.

Speaker A: I love that. And you mentioned, you know, and this resonates, uh, with myself and the different founders you work with. You know, you mentioned a lot about coaching and advising and how you can allocate and help your investors do this. Where do you see and how do you think that the investor who's going into this private equity space, you know, like you mentioned earlier, that if I invest in Apple or one of these large companies, it's just a transaction. They're not waiting to hear what I have to say. They're not like, you know, JP hasn't reached out to us this week to give us our updates on, uh, our Q4 numbers. So they're not really diving into that, but they will do that. If you're investing in private equity. And, um, is there, ah, you know, do you say people tell share to the investor, pick your lane, go after it? There's a lot of help you can provide to founders. Like do you try to get them more involved in the process or do you kind of just allocate, move their, move money around, make the investments so that everybody's happy? Like, how do you kind of tie them in so that it really does kind of, um, uh, cross the T's and dot the I's and all that good stuff into this process.

Speaker B: Well, what's interesting is the sort of backdrop to how I operate here is, I don't know if you're seeing it in Canada, but the. Certainly in the uk there's a structural shift going on where the financial institutions are moving kind of upmarket, and they're only looking now at companies with a minimum 200 million sterling valuation. So there's this enormous gap now in companies between about 20 million and 200 million who are being forced to turn to private investors rather than institutions. And what I'm finding is they are struggling with that change because they're just not used to dealing with private investors who are very different. Different psychology, different priorities, different vocabulary. So I'm doing a lot of work with founders now to make them kind of private investor ready in terms of how they tell their story, what's on the pitch deck, what they leave out, importantly, um, how they follow up, how they communicate with private investors, how they need to focus a bit more on an exit strategy, you know, so, so all of these things, having been on both sides of the fence, I know what private investors are like and therefore I can help founders to actually position their, their company, uh, as well as they can to deal with them. And equally having dealt with a lot of founders, I can help private investors to say, these are the kind of questions you need to ask in your due diligence. And this is how you can sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of, you know, where would you want to put, Remember I said 25% spread across five companies. So the way I put it is you've only got to make five decisions. Okay, you're not a VC making 105, you're making five decisions. So you're going to treat each of those fairly carefully and seriously. So here's how you're going to go about it. So I have a kind of a high level due diligence where I have seven tests I use because, you know, I'm sure you're the same once you get a name in this business, you get scores of things across your desk every week. So you, you have to have a filtering system and it's the same, you know, for private investors. So if they pass that, then I'll go into the detailed due diligence, I'll get to see the founders, I'll go in the data room, etc. Um, but if you have that M mindset, I'm only going to make five decisions, um, then, you know, you become a kind of a mini Warren Buffett. You know, you're looking really for, uh, understanding do I like the sector, do I like the people? Um, do I think they've got the capability to deliver on this? Um, because whatever the technology is, ultimately you are always investing in the people. And you know, you could take two scenarios with identical products and services, two different teams, one could deliver and one could fail. So it's always the people that make the difference. Um, so a lot of that analysis is to do with what you think of the founders. Um, but also obviously You've got to think that is this a, ah, a unique product that solves a problem in the real world. I look for, is it going to use some unique technology or intellectual property that will give it that kind of multiplier, um, scalability, you know, because obviously the earnings multiple is what's going to move the dial. Um, I look at the background of the founders, I look at the addressable market, obviously. I also like to see how much skin in the game they've got. Ideally, I want that founder to lose his house if this business fails. Um, and I'm quite brutal on that. I get so many founders that come to me with this great idea where, well, I'm putting the idea into the mix. Yeah. How much money you're putting in? Oh, well, that's up to you. You're the investment guy and I say, oh, so you want us to take all the risk while you try this thing that you've never done before and, uh, we all hope it works out okay, and if it doesn't, your life hasn't changed at all and my investors have lost all their money, Is that what you're saying? That's your proposition? You know, so I want to see serious, you know, six figure, seven figure, house at stake, whatever skin in the game as a key test of how serious this is. Because if I'm making one of my five decisions on this, I've got to know that you are totally committed and engaged to this. You haven't got six other businesses on the side. This is not your side hustle from a day job. You know, that's the kind of level I want to get into.

Speaker A: I love that. I think I'm going to snippet that last one, uh, minute and use that. I think, uh, it's brilliant. It's a tough world and it's a tough, uh, market. And I think this is the lack of financial understanding for a lot of people. Um, really high and call it 95% of the world. And I think when you're, um, looking at something from an investment or a company that you want to invest in, it's how you manage other people's money, it's how you manage your own money, it's how you manage your business. And I think if, you know, your thesis is that we only invest in founders that, um, are putting in the risk and equalizing the risk, then when you look at it from that perspective, there's, you know, that's a horse you want to get behind because there's a better chance that they're going to do whatever it takes. They're going to be a real entrepreneur, not just be, ah, a paycheck entrepreneur. And I think that's the tough part is that um, we don't look at this as I'm all in. This asset is worth more to me than any other asset I own. And the value of that asset right now is sub half a million. But in five years that should be a uh, $500 million asset. And that to me is worth more than my 100,000 year paycheck or 50,000 paycheck. Um, I think I can make a lot more money off of 500 million or a billion dollars than I can off of that. So I think there's this shift of mindset and I think they had that back in the day, like when they were building companies back in the 60s, 70s when you know, you were, California was booming and San Fran wasn't making these investments. They were going after these founders because they were all in, they were staking everything against this business, uh, and boom. Look at the amount of companies that really succeeded through that capital investment back in those days to today where there's so many companies. And it makes sense that, you know, the 2 and 200 million nobody's wanting, no banks want to put money in there because there's so many companies. They're like, we, we have to weep this out and you know, let's reduce our risk and let's just go to companies that are 200 million or more. And it makes sense because they have high risk. They got to manage it and they can't manage it at uh, a $2 million. They wait too long, doesn't have the returns they want. But there is a lot of companies that are doing 200 million. So let's just focus there so you can see the shift which you're talking about. And it makes a lot of sense. Unless you're going to risk it all and really put everything in behind this to make it succeed. Uh, next. Just keep pushing everybody through.

Speaker B: Yeah, but what's interesting about it is because of that shift of the institutions, what I'm seeing now is much higher quality companies coming to me asking for private investor funding. So the quality of what we can invest into has gone up a lot in the last couple of years. And I'm, you know, I'm really excited by the, the opportunities that we've been able to bring to our members this year. And I think they're a lot stronger than what I had two or three years ago. And that's because of this shift. So, uh, there's, there's two sides to it. You know, it's great for us because we're seeing better quality companies, uh, but it's tougher for them because they just have to learn now how to deal with private individuals rather than a single institution.

Speaker A: Well, either way, it's still, uh, such an open, fluid market. It's pretty awesome. And obviously love what you're doing and you've, you've uh, really set the stage for how founders can look for that capital at this stage and how they can get future capital from these larger players because they've been able to work with you and bring in this private equity capital and family offices and everybody alike are, uh, gravitating to this space quite a bit to these days because they also don't want the meager 7%, if you want to call it that. They're looking for bigger gains, bigger value, and they want to invest and tell everybody about the fact that they invested in Uber. They, you know, it's a, it's a great story to be able to say that and I love that you're pushing them to be direct. I think that's also a, uh, great opportunity. So I think maybe now it sounds like you and I could just keep talking for hours and days because there's so much cool stuff that's in this space and it's such a open market that, and such a lack of understanding too, because it has been private for so long and now it's really starting to make its, its way through the markets and more interest and it's starting to build up globally. Uh, from Saudi Arabia everywhere. Everybody is trying to figure out how do I make something big out of this space? Um, to your point, it's where all the value creation is occurring. And I love that line. It really is 100%. The value creation is happening at the 2 million mark. That's where you're seeing it and that's where people want to get in. And I'm happy that after all these years it's starting to make a dent and there's more interest in that space. Uh, so very well shared. Um, but to uh, kind of make take us to our next stage, we are going to do the 60 second rant. And maybe we already blew through the rant because there's such a lot of great conversation going on. But the way the 60 second rant is, you have 60 seconds to rant about anything that maybe upsets you or makes you excited about the market. I Will try and counter it and then you'll close it off. But, um, ready when you are. 60 seconds. You're on.

Speaker B: Okay. Um, obviously, I'm mainly involved in helping people with wealth creation and wealth protection. Um, but one of the things I've been saying recently is what use is all the money in the world if we lose our most basic freedoms like freedom of speech and freedom of movement? Now, this started in the pandemic with all the lockdowns and governments taking way too much power onto themselves. And it's interesting that, you know, here we've got kind of Britain and Canada represented because they were two of the worst culprits. Um, and you finally got rid of the guy that was in charge during the, uh, the truckers protest. I see. Um, but what we're seeing now is, you know, we just had the Online Safety act in Britain, which is kind of censorship by any other name. Uh, we've got people put in jail for sending tweets. Um, you know, and my father, I'm only one generation from active service in the second World War. So, you know, if I could say to my dad, you know, did you fight that war so that, you know, people in Britain would be imprisoned for sending a tweet? I think you'd be pretty upset. Um, so I think we've kind of lost what it is to be free. Uh, the latest Freedom House report said it's the 19th consecutive year of decline in democracy around the world. So I'm really worried that although we've got all these great technology advances, all these great investments, if you look at the politics and the culture, we seem to me to be heading into a George Orwell 1984 style, uh, authoritarian surveillance society. And that worries me more than anything about my investment portfolio.

Speaker A: We get it. Hiring isn't easy. When a key role is open, everything slows down. That's where we come in. At Hardboot, we help you find the people who, um, unlock growth in sales, marketing, and development. We use a proven process to surface the right candidates, cut through the noise, and help you make confident, high impact decisions. Your next hire matters. Let's make it count. Learn more at Hardboot, Inc. Well, that's a. It's a great 60 second rant. And, you know, I, I want to counter it and say that, uh, you're wrong, but unfortunately there's, uh, I don't even think I'd have a leg to stand on with, uh, with that pushback. But I, I will, um, I guess support it. And my whole brain was going to the George Orwell as well. So I was thinking the same thing. Um, I think when the point I would add in here is that, you know, we're allowing, um, and we're hoping the governments are there to protect us and save us. And I think the, the fear is that I'm so busy building my family and running my everyday life, I don't have time to think or read. Um, and I'm seeing that, you know, the government stepped up to help with this, step up to help with all of these different measures. And it's benefiting me somewhat, I feel it's benefiting me. So I'm reading this, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's helping with healthcare. Oh, it's helping with this. And I think what we're doing, we're not understanding is that uh, we keep, um, tightening the box. The governments are tightening the box around the individual, making them feel more secure, uh, by taking away privileges that they've had their whole life. And the more they tighten the box and offer these little dangling carrots, we just seem to keep biting at them and thinking that they're great. And I do, you're right, the UK and Canada was very strong in that space and continue to do that in the us. Uh, I don't know if the US could ever wrangle anybody in that way. But they try and I think they fight back. And I think that people, you know, I think us, sorry, UK and Canada have the highest number of cameras, um, set up in pop by population. And I think that we keep allowing things to, um, go because we're a fear of X or we're a fear that this is going to happen or. So we kind of keep accepting it versus pushing back. And then when we do push back, it used to last days and weeks, now it lasts minutes. So we, uh, we decide to have a ride. It's for three minutes. Like we're downtown and we're riding. It's for one hour and it's controlled and you can't really get a voice out. And we don't keep doing it. And it's, I think that's where the shameful side is that we've retreated to our humble abode thinking that that's our protection now. And it used to be our protection was the village, it was the country, it was the city. And now it's our home, it's our bedroom. And it's getting so refined that we don't see it happening. Um, and that's the scary part of it. So, uh, I I do agree that we have to take a bigger stance and with the voice of the Internet, you would think that we would compounded, um, that this wouldn't even be possible to happen today.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, people often talk about, you know, having a reason why. And I think for me, one of the things that people should consider when you're thinking about investing in these companies and building a portfolio is one of the most powerful things you can have is the ability to escape. Um, and I write about this. I have a newsletter on substack that I call Escape Velocity. I write about business investing and escape. I've already escaped three times in my life. Um, but it's only if you have the financial resources as well as the kind of flexible, adaptable mindset that you can even consider escaping. See, I'm here in Portugal. I've been here four and a half years. I'm on a kind of a ten year tax program. So I've already got one eye on what's coming next, where do I go next after this? Um, now Portugal is one of the kind of freest and easiest countries in Europe. Um, way better than Britain or Germany or France. Um, so I may just stay here, but I still want to, at the back of my mind, if things get too bad here, where are we going to go? And you've really got to have that mindset, but you can't do it unless you got the funding. So, you know, if you want to buy another citizenship somewhere, it might cost you a million dollars, you know. So it's important to get to the point where you have the wherewithal to have options on where you live, where you go, where you put your business, et cetera, et cetera. So this is a really important thing for people to think about. But often, you know, as you say, they're too busy in their own little lifestyle, their own little world to just look up a bit and actually think about the world as your chessboard that you can make moves on. Because, you know, there's places other than Canada and Britain, folks, believe me, you should look at them.

Speaker A: I love that. And very well shared. Uh, there's so much opportunity out in the world and you have to start somewhere. So take a little bit of risk, invest in a few different risky spots, but read up on it, learn, get the best help you can. Find a coach or a mentor in the investor stage that's been there, done that. Um, and it sounds like, uh, you've done a phenomenal job at that. Graham. So we're Going to jump into the kind of our last segment which is some quick rapid fire questions. Um, these ones are going to be business and personal related and then we'll wrap things up. So to uh, to move on you'll pick one or the other um, from the investment standpoint uh, so typically when your investment uh, portfolio and you're investing do you invest in founder or a co founder, what do you prefer?

Speaker B: I prefer to have more than one founder because invariably they've got different but complementary skill sets. So I would go for the co

Speaker A: founders unicorn or a 4 year 10x exit.

Speaker B: Um, I'll probably take the 4 year 10x exit.

Speaker A: CPG or Tech.

Speaker B: Tech uh usually is uh, the one that's going to get the big valuation multiples I think. So I'd still veer towards tech.

Speaker A: AI or blockchain?

Speaker B: Oh that's a both and I think they're too closely linked. Uh, I think AI. Gosh there's so much hype around it but it's going to be huge. Um, and blockchain. Yeah it's kind of an underpinning infrastructure. AI is a lot more exciting. But blockchain, we need blockchain infrastructure too.

Speaker A: Love it. First money in or series A?

Speaker B: Uh, we've done a bit of both. I um, mean series A obviously de risks things so we tend to focus on growth capital. So I think I would say series A leader follow. Well again that would come back to the previous one somewhat. I mean we prefer uh, we typically are the main investor at the rounds. We do and then we would tend to sometimes have an exit when the institutions come in. So we kind of lead in the early stages. Um and then we would be either a follower or we'd exit when the institutions arrive.

Speaker A: Fair number of companies invested per year?

Speaker B: Quite low. About uh four typically um, you know three or four that will make it and then we run a raise, a campaign that takes you know probably two or three months anyway. So no more than probably four in a, in a year.

Speaker A: Uh okay. And any verticals that you tend to focus in on?

Speaker B: Uh, we've done fintech, we've done at the moment we're doing quite a bit in the uh, space sector. I think aerospace and defense are two really key sectors going forward. So um, I, I got a big focus on that and also increasing in the digital sector. So we've just done ah, an inheritance platform for how you pass your digital assets on to the next generation which is a whole new requirement for the 21st century.

Speaker A: Agreed. I love it. Um, okay. Well, we'll go into, well, maybe a couple of quick questions here. Um, what is the piece of advice you give founders nine out of ten times?

Speaker B: Um, I think it's really how they tell their story. Um, you know, because narratives are important and a lot of founders, they focus just on their tech. Um, but you know, these are human decisions by people that are, you know, that I want to know your story. Um, so I always say spend more time on you and your story than just on the tech, because that's what differentiates you. It's what makes you unique.

Speaker A: Love it. Who is your hero mentor and why?

Speaker B: Oh, I've had so many over the years. Um, I have kind of business mentors and personal mentors. M On the business side, uh, for a long time it was a guy called Dan Kennedy. Uh, I also liked Jim Rohn, who was originally, I think, Tony Robbins mentor. He has great kind of business philosopher. Um, uh, on the other, I, I, I'm a, a Christian. I have a, a Christian mentor who's also a very successful entrepreneur. Guy called Ravi Dua. Um, and uh, on the investment side, I think, uh, I certainly would say I learned a lot from Kiyosaki in the early days. I think he was a great, he had a great knack of financial education, which we talked about, you know, being so lacking. I think if everyone was made to read Rich Dad, Poor dad at school and maybe add Atlas Shrugged to that as well, um, I think, uh, I think the world would be a better place.

Speaker A: I love that. I, ah, do agree. I was a big fan of the book as well. I thought he could have cut the book down in half by kind of repeat too much stuff in it. But I guess you got to make the point, right? Um, there was, there was something that popped in my head and I was, uh, that you had mentioned earlier on in the, in our discussion and I thought I would circle back to it at this moment before we jump into last questions, but it was where you mentioned that, you know, if your accountant was where you first started your first accountant, and you know, your accountant today, if you're worth 10 million, isn't going to be the same accountant that you have, uh, when you're at a million because they have different understandings, different spaces, they fit in and you're only going to learn better from the people that are ahead of you, not the people behind you. Uh, so I think that's something we also have to keep in mind. But you know, it's also with your business or hiring or anybody, a board of advisors or directors is that I always tell people that, you know, you might want to book them for three years. Oh, I better have this guy as an advisor for three years. And I would say 12 months tops. You're going to learn everything you can possibly learn about that person in 12 months, if not six, that they're not going to offer any other value. And in year three, you're going to be bored and you're going to be frustrated if they're still around. So you should always be doing everything short term and get the most out of everything you can in quick spurts. So it's Sprint, Sprint, Sprint. If you're trying to build a business or, uh, build value, it's keep finding the people ahead of you and stop pitching the people behind you.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think sometimes when you're at the coal phase, you don't always recognize how much progress you've made and how much you have changed as a person. Um, and one of the things I mentioned, Ravi Dua there, one of the things he always looks at is the founder's capacity, their mental capacity to grow a business. Because no amount of money or technology is going to work if the guy hasn't got the capacity to scale this business. So the way he described it to me was if you came to me and said, I'm going to start an Amazon warehouse, but it's in my garage, he would say, well, you know, your thinking's a little bit small, mate. You know, that's not the capacity you need for an Amazon type warehouse. You know, so you've got to match the guy's capacity to the scale and the potential of the business. Without that mental capacity, it's never going to fly.

Speaker A: I love that. It reminds me when I first started my company and I went and asked my, my lawyer at the time, who is my also mentor, and I asked him, hey, ah, I need to do this. This is the business we have. And I'm looking to meet some lawyers. He said, no problem, I'll put this together. And we went into a room and it was with four lawyers. And they all sat around the room. When I first got in there, he wasn't there. And they all talked about how much money they made per hour and what their billables were. And I just sat there thinking, my God, I can't even afford five minutes of your time right now. But that's that whole mindset of, if this is where I want to go, I have to be in the room with the players, not with the people. That are, uh, ah, like minded to me. They have to be a lot further along the stream, and it makes a big difference.

Speaker B: Yeah. And a lot of these guys, they charge fees, and unfortunately, you just got to pay the fees if you want the input. But, uh, it's always painful when you start paying hundreds per hour. I know.

Speaker A: Yeah. I just remember being like, wow, man, $560, 750. And I was like, this was 20 years ago. And I was like, oh, my God, what am I into right now? I'm gonna leave this meeting. And, oh, five grand. And I didn't even start it, so it was this mindset. But you know what? That's what gets you where you need to be. You have to put yourself in the room where the big players are making the moves, and you can learn from that, so.

Speaker B: Well, look on the bright side. Some of those guys have already been replaced by AI algorithms.

Speaker A: Fair. All right, we're really close here. We're almost at the end. So a couple of personal questions. What's your favorite movie and what character would you play?

Speaker B: Oh, gosh. Uh, my favorite movie. Blimey. Um, that's a struggle. I'm not a great, uh, cinema goer. Uh, yeah, I'd have to pass on that one. I can't think of one. Sorry.

Speaker A: Oh, that's okay. Favorite book?

Speaker B: Favorite book? Uh, Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

Speaker A: Favorite sports team?

Speaker B: Uh, well, I mean, I'm into Formula One, so, uh, McLaren is my. My favorite Formula One team.

Speaker A: I was in Dubai in the elevator with, uh, the McLaren EV team. Oh. Uh, so we got. We got a photo with them. It was pretty cool because, uh, everybody. No one recognized them. And we were just like, that's the EV Team. They're like, the what team? This is the EV Team, man. Yeah, it's pretty popular. And they were like, yeah, we'll take a photo with you. So they were actually super humble, but it was pretty cool, so.

Speaker B: Oh, excellent. Excellent. Yeah, no, I, I, uh. Well, I just. Just so you know, if the, the personal question. I spent my honeymoon in Canada way back in 1996, and I thought, I want this marriage to start the way it's going to continue. So we finished up in Montreal for the Grand Prix. Um, my wife had to sit through that for a couple of days, but it was. It was really cool. You know, taking a subway to a racetrack was a great experience.

Speaker A: I love it. It's a. It's a great race there, too. Uh, well, and that's the. The good footprint in Canada. So that's a good story. Um, all right, almost there. Cook or fortune cookie? Cake or fortune cookie?

Speaker B: Uh, cake.

Speaker A: All right. DC or Marvel?

Speaker B: Uh, Marvel.

Speaker A: Superman or Batman?

Speaker B: Probably, uh, Batman.

Speaker A: All right. You got to stick along with the Marvel. Yeah, you got to stay with Marvel. I like it. All right. Football or football?

Speaker B: Uh, not into football at all. American or English.

Speaker A: And I'd fair Elon Musk or Oprah Winfrey?

Speaker B: Oh, Elon Musk. Every time.

Speaker A: All right, last question. What is your superpower?

Speaker B: My superpower is understanding complex, uh, things like business models and explaining them in terms that people can understand. So it's all about communication, either in writing or on video or on stage.

Speaker A: I love it. Well, I'm going to say that, Graham, it's been a real pleasure getting the opportunity to chat with you today. I think even when I was in questions, I wanted to keep asking more questions and talk longer. So, um, which is typically the rapid fire, and it seemed like it was more of, uh, uh, continuing to hang out and chat more. So it's been a great experience, learned a lot, and I appreciate all of your time. And I think the way one Ender show is that if you have any last words you want to share to the investors, startup community, or business people alike, I turn it over to you. And please let us know how we can get, uh, a hold of you in the future if we do have, uh, want to chat with you online or find companies to invest with you.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I just want to say to founders watching us, you are the lifeblood of the economy. You are the most important people out there. Creating wealth, taking the risk, building the wealth that the rest of us all depend on, and frankly, quite a few people take for granted. If you're an investor, then the founders can't do it without you. Uh, so you need to be on board with them. You need to take that risk and share that risk with them. It's exciting, it's fun. It won't always work out, just to be clear. Um, but, um, it's a great journey. It's a great use of your time, your talent, because they'll often bring you on board as an advisor as well. So you can have a lot of fun in the whole private equity space. So I salute both of you investors and founders in terms of myself. You can learn more about my Investment Club@InsideInvestorClub.com. um, if you want my writing, you can find me on Substack. If you look for Graham Rowan on Substack and the Escape Velocity newsletter or just connect with me on LinkedIn. Be great to meet there and, uh, hopefully we can meet face to face at some point.

Speaker A: I love it. Graham, thank you very much for all your time today.

Speaker B: Thank you very much. Been great to be on with you, Jeffrey.