Ep. 22-How to Lead a High-Performance Sales Org Without Owning Every Deal with Alice Heiman

1 00:00:02,160 - > 00:00:02,560 SPEAKER_02: All right. 2 00:00:02,799 - > 00:00:03,520 Hello, everybody. 3 00:00:03,680 - > 00:00:06,879 Welcome back to Pre-Sales Unplug, the leadership playbook. 4 00:00:07,040 - > 00:00:08,400 I'm Arvi Karkanji. 5 00:00:08,480 - > 00:00:11,359 I'm the founder of Elite Talent, and I really work with SaaS 6 00:00:11,439 - > 00:00:14,400 companies to help them hire presales and full-sales talent. 7 00:00:14,560 - > 00:00:16,079 But today really isn't about me. 8 00:00:16,320 - > 00:00:20,399 Today is about a very special guest that is joining me for the 9 00:00:20,399 - > 00:00:20,800 first time. 10 00:00:20,960 - > 00:00:23,280 I'm going to introduce her very soon. 11 00:00:24,000 - > 00:00:27,519 But one quick note before we jump in these conversations are 12 00:00:27,519 - > 00:00:29,359 live, intentionally unedited. 13 00:00:29,440 - > 00:00:32,560 So what you hear here today is real and exactly how it 14 00:00:32,560 - > 00:00:33,039 happened. 15 00:00:33,200 - > 00:00:35,679 We stream it live, but you can also catch a replay on our 16 00:00:35,679 - > 00:00:38,880 podcast across Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever it is that 17 00:00:38,880 - > 00:00:39,280 you listen. 18 00:00:39,679 - > 00:00:43,200 And of course, if you do get value from the conversation, 19 00:00:43,280 - > 00:00:46,479 you'll make sure to follow, subscribe, or leave us a review. 20 00:00:46,640 - > 00:00:48,640 I personally read every single one of them. 21 00:00:48,719 - > 00:00:52,079 And if you have questions after the fact about our guest or 22 00:00:52,079 - > 00:00:55,359 anything that they mention, I'll make sure to tag them so that 23 00:00:55,359 - > 00:00:56,880 you can get your responses. 24 00:00:57,280 - > 00:01:01,439 With that being said, I'm super excited today to be joined by 25 00:01:01,439 - > 00:01:02,640 Alice Hyman. 26 00:01:02,799 - > 00:01:08,159 She is the chief sales energizer, has plenty of 27 00:01:08,159 - > 00:01:12,959 experience in sales, help so many companies not only fix 28 00:01:12,959 - > 00:01:16,799 their sales process, but also scale it and become successful 29 00:01:16,799 - > 00:01:17,200 at it. 30 00:01:17,359 - > 00:01:20,400 And I'm really excited to honestly just dive in your brain 31 00:01:20,400 - > 00:01:24,719 today and just help help anybody that's listening and just help 32 00:01:24,719 - > 00:01:27,680 them fix their sales process or at least give them pointers. 33 00:01:27,760 - > 00:01:29,680 And then, of course, you know, if they wanted to learn more 34 00:01:29,680 - > 00:01:31,439 about you, they can come and contact you. 35 00:01:31,680 - > 00:01:34,799 But um, thank you for joining me today on my podcast. 36 00:01:35,120 - > 00:01:36,239 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks, Arvi. 37 00:01:36,480 - > 00:01:39,040 I'm always excited to talk about sales. 38 00:01:39,120 - > 00:01:42,640 It's probably the number one challenge at every company on 39 00:01:42,640 - > 00:01:43,280 earth, right? 40 00:01:43,840 - > 00:01:47,200 Rarely do we ever hear a company say, oh, we have too much sales, 41 00:01:47,280 - > 00:01:49,359 we just can't even, you know, right? 42 00:01:49,840 - > 00:01:54,159 We are always uh hearing people say they wish their sales per 43 00:01:54,239 - > 00:01:57,200 people had more conversations with people who could buy, they 44 00:01:57,280 - > 00:02:00,799 wish they had more leads, uh, they wish the deals were closing 45 00:02:00,799 - > 00:02:01,200 faster. 46 00:02:01,280 - > 00:02:04,560 There's always some challenge around sales. 47 00:02:04,879 - > 00:02:06,640 SPEAKER_02: Yes, and it's it's so true. 48 00:02:06,719 - > 00:02:09,199 I mean, yeah, you even if they are having too many sales, 49 00:02:09,360 - > 00:02:11,599 they're always thinking like something's wrong with my sales 50 00:02:11,599 - > 00:02:12,800 process that we need to fix. 51 00:02:12,879 - > 00:02:14,159 So yes, exactly. 52 00:02:14,319 - > 00:02:15,759 SPEAKER_00: Well, and that can be just as bad. 53 00:02:15,919 - > 00:02:17,599 Sometimes it sounds like a great thing, right? 54 00:02:17,759 - > 00:02:21,759 Too many sales, but it's not always a great thing because we 55 00:02:21,759 - > 00:02:25,919 have to care for each and every one of those companies that buys 56 00:02:25,919 - > 00:02:26,479 from us. 57 00:02:26,719 - > 00:02:29,919 And sometimes we don't have the bandwidth or we can't deliver on 58 00:02:29,919 - > 00:02:30,159 time. 59 00:02:30,319 - > 00:02:33,439 So, you know, I always say, be careful what you wish for. 60 00:02:34,639 - > 00:02:35,439 SPEAKER_02: That's very true. 61 00:02:35,520 - > 00:02:37,599 And I can't wait to dive into that. 62 00:02:37,840 - > 00:02:40,960 I did want to ask you really quickly to just introduce her 63 00:02:40,960 - > 00:02:44,080 yourself and like your journey and how what led you to where 64 00:02:44,080 - > 00:02:44,639 you are today. 65 00:02:44,800 - > 00:02:47,840 So our listeners can understand a little bit more about who you 66 00:02:47,840 - > 00:02:49,120 are and what you do. 67 00:02:49,360 - > 00:02:51,680 SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll try to make it quick because it's it's 68 00:02:51,680 - > 00:02:54,560 a long journey because I'm old and I've been around a long 69 00:02:54,800 - > 00:02:55,039 time. 70 00:02:55,520 - > 00:02:57,599 SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't use the word old. 71 00:02:58,879 - > 00:03:01,199 SPEAKER_00: I started as a public school teacher. 72 00:03:01,360 - > 00:03:03,840 I won't dwell on that too much, but it was awesome. 73 00:03:04,159 - > 00:03:05,840 13 years in the public schools. 74 00:03:05,919 - > 00:03:10,159 I was a special ed teacher and um reading specialist, loved 75 00:03:10,159 - > 00:03:10,400 that. 76 00:03:10,560 - > 00:03:13,759 But even at that time, I was very entrepreneurial, didn't 77 00:03:13,759 - > 00:03:15,199 even know what that word meant then. 78 00:03:15,360 - > 00:03:17,599 It wasn't really being used, you know. 79 00:03:18,080 - > 00:03:23,199 And I had started a nonprofit and a for-profit both while I 80 00:03:23,199 - > 00:03:26,000 was teaching, which sounds crazy, right? 81 00:03:26,240 - > 00:03:29,680 But I just found a need and filled it, you know, it was that 82 00:03:29,680 - > 00:03:30,479 kind of a thing. 83 00:03:30,639 - > 00:03:34,960 So uh so I have experience, you know, even before I was out the 84 00:03:34,960 - > 00:03:36,479 gate in the business world. 85 00:03:36,719 - > 00:03:40,719 But some of your listeners will have heard of a company called 86 00:03:40,719 - > 00:03:42,080 Miller Hyman. 87 00:03:42,400 - > 00:03:44,800 And uh that was my father's company. 88 00:03:44,960 - > 00:03:49,919 He and Bob Miller founded that company in this in the late 70s. 89 00:03:50,319 - > 00:03:53,680 And so I kind of grew up around sales. 90 00:03:53,840 - > 00:03:56,639 My dad was always in sales his whole life. 91 00:03:56,879 - > 00:04:00,000 Then he and Bob started this company around helping other 92 00:04:00,000 - > 00:04:03,759 companies sell better because of all the experience that they 93 00:04:03,759 - > 00:04:04,080 had. 94 00:04:04,479 - > 00:04:07,520 And eventually, over time, because I was still in college 95 00:04:07,520 - > 00:04:11,840 when they started the company, but uh over time my dad would 96 00:04:11,840 - > 00:04:13,439 ask me, Can you do a project? 97 00:04:13,599 - > 00:04:14,879 Can you help me with this? 98 00:04:15,039 - > 00:04:17,360 You know, it's a family business, sort of right. 99 00:04:17,519 - > 00:04:20,480 You know, kids would help out sometimes too. 100 00:04:20,720 - > 00:04:26,560 And then in 1989, my dad bought his partner out, and then he 101 00:04:26,560 - > 00:04:29,199 wanted me to come work for him, and I kept saying no. 102 00:04:29,519 - > 00:04:34,319 Finally, in 1994, I stopped teaching. 103 00:04:34,480 - > 00:04:38,959 I had, like I said, two other businesses going, a nonprofit 104 00:04:38,959 - > 00:04:43,279 and a for-profit, and I left all of that behind and I went to 105 00:04:43,279 - > 00:04:44,720 work for Miller Hyman. 106 00:04:44,959 - > 00:04:49,519 But what's funny, um, really, Arby, is that I didn't go there 107 00:04:49,519 - > 00:04:50,720 to be in sales. 108 00:04:51,040 - > 00:04:56,480 My dad hired me because of my expertise in curriculum design 109 00:04:56,480 - > 00:05:01,199 and implementation, because his company was doing sales training 110 00:05:01,279 - > 00:05:04,959 and he wanted someone to look at the curriculum and kind of bring 111 00:05:04,959 - > 00:05:08,720 it up, uh, you know, make sure it was modern and best for the 112 00:05:08,720 - > 00:05:10,480 learner and all of those things. 113 00:05:10,720 - > 00:05:12,720 And so that's how I started. 114 00:05:13,360 - > 00:05:19,120 Excuse me, but it wasn't that he was hiring me for sales, he was 115 00:05:19,120 - > 00:05:23,199 hiring me to do this whole other task, but it just led to that 116 00:05:23,519 - > 00:05:27,120 because after I had done all this work on the curriculum, 117 00:05:27,279 - > 00:05:30,720 then I was like, well, I need to teach it so I can see how it 118 00:05:30,720 - > 00:05:32,079 flows and how it goes. 119 00:05:32,319 - > 00:05:35,839 I need to watch the other instructors teach it so I can, 120 00:05:35,920 - > 00:05:38,160 you know, take notes and make changes. 121 00:05:38,240 - > 00:05:42,160 And and so it just turned into me also teaching these programs. 122 00:05:42,399 - > 00:05:45,439 And then it turned into me working with the large our 123 00:05:45,439 - > 00:05:49,360 largest customers, Coca-Cola, Hewlett-Packard, ATT, Dow 124 00:05:49,519 - > 00:05:52,879 Chemical, um, you name it, you know, just the big ones, 125 00:05:53,040 - > 00:05:56,399 Fidelity Investments, great, great customers working with 126 00:05:56,399 - > 00:05:56,560 them. 127 00:05:56,720 - > 00:05:59,600 And then it turned into me training all the trainers. 128 00:06:00,160 - > 00:06:04,879 So I mean, it was a crazy, you know, like I got catapulted 129 00:06:04,879 - > 00:06:09,120 into, you know, from being a school teacher into the business 130 00:06:09,120 - > 00:06:12,240 world, into the fortune, the world of the Fortune 500. 131 00:06:12,319 - > 00:06:15,360 So it was really an amazing learning experience. 132 00:06:15,920 - > 00:06:19,199 And then from there, I, you know, a couple of years later, I 133 00:06:19,199 - > 00:06:21,519 learned that my dad wanted to sell the company. 134 00:06:21,759 - > 00:06:26,319 So I got this amazing experience learning how to exit a company 135 00:06:26,480 - > 00:06:28,079 when I was in my 30s, right? 136 00:06:28,319 - > 00:06:31,839 Wow, and it was the first time that a private equity firm had 137 00:06:31,839 - > 00:06:33,680 ever purchased a sales training firm. 138 00:06:33,759 - > 00:06:35,439 This was in the late 90s now. 139 00:06:35,680 - > 00:06:39,600 So private equity and venture capital wasn't even a really big 140 00:06:39,600 - > 00:06:43,680 thing until just like a minute later when the dot-com started, 141 00:06:43,920 - > 00:06:44,240 right? 142 00:06:44,639 - > 00:06:48,879 And so that whole thing, you know, blew up and it was crazy. 143 00:06:49,120 - > 00:06:52,399 So I, when my dad sold the company, I left and started my 144 00:06:52,399 - > 00:06:53,279 own company. 145 00:06:53,439 - > 00:06:57,600 And I was working with the dot-coms and helping them scale 146 00:06:57,600 - > 00:06:58,399 their sales, right? 147 00:06:58,480 - > 00:07:00,800 Because all this venture money was thrown at them and they had 148 00:07:00,800 - > 00:07:01,680 to grow quickly. 149 00:07:01,839 - > 00:07:05,759 And I really that wasn't what I had been doing because I had 150 00:07:05,759 - > 00:07:09,680 been training Fortune 500 sellers, right? 151 00:07:10,000 - > 00:07:15,519 And I move into this crazy world of startup, and it's completely 152 00:07:15,519 - > 00:07:15,920 different. 153 00:07:16,000 - > 00:07:18,079 You're not training anybody because they don't even have any 154 00:07:18,079 - > 00:07:21,759 salespeople yet, you're building it from scratch, right? 155 00:07:22,000 - > 00:07:24,879 So it was a crazy time, but it was so fun. 156 00:07:24,959 - > 00:07:26,319 And I learned so much. 157 00:07:26,480 - > 00:07:27,839 I I'm so lucky. 158 00:07:28,000 - > 00:07:32,959 But after working with a lot of those dot-com startups, and then 159 00:07:32,959 - > 00:07:37,439 with venture, I was like, wow, like that is very volatile place 160 00:07:37,439 - > 00:07:37,759 to be. 161 00:07:37,839 - > 00:07:40,879 I'd like to work with more mature companies, but I really 162 00:07:40,879 - > 00:07:44,560 had learned that I liked working with smaller companies than the 163 00:07:44,560 - > 00:07:45,680 Fortune 500. 164 00:07:45,759 - > 00:07:48,480 And these, you know, were all sub at the time. 165 00:07:48,560 - > 00:07:52,399 They were, you know, zero to 10 million in revenues, right? 166 00:07:52,720 - > 00:07:56,079 And so I started looking for companies that were, you know, 167 00:07:56,240 - > 00:08:00,800 five to 10 years in business or more, maybe at the 5 million, 10 168 00:08:00,800 - > 00:08:02,160 million mark already. 169 00:08:02,959 - > 00:08:06,800 And and then I really found my my place there with those tech 170 00:08:06,879 - > 00:08:11,759 CEOs in that kind of 10 plus years in business, 10 plus 171 00:08:11,759 - > 00:08:15,199 million in revenue, and helping them, you know, double their 172 00:08:15,199 - > 00:08:17,279 sales and then eventually exit. 173 00:08:17,600 - > 00:08:17,839 SPEAKER_02: Okay. 174 00:08:18,000 - > 00:08:18,639 I love that. 175 00:08:18,800 - > 00:08:22,560 First of all, how freaking cool that you grew up like around 176 00:08:22,560 - > 00:08:23,199 sales. 177 00:08:23,360 - > 00:08:26,160 Um, and I love hearing those stories because honestly, I want 178 00:08:26,160 - > 00:08:27,360 to do the same for my son. 179 00:08:27,519 - > 00:08:29,759 Because I grew up complete opposite. 180 00:08:30,000 - > 00:08:33,519 My, I mean, and again, you know, they didn't know any better, but 181 00:08:33,519 - > 00:08:36,480 like my family and my parents that were against sales. 182 00:08:36,639 - > 00:08:38,960 They're like, oh, you never want to do sales. 183 00:08:39,120 - > 00:08:41,919 And it's interesting because out of college, I actually got 184 00:08:41,919 - > 00:08:43,360 offered a sales job. 185 00:08:43,600 - > 00:08:47,279 And again, we didn't know any better at the time, but my mom 186 00:08:47,279 - > 00:08:49,360 was like, Oh, you don't want to do that, you know, the 187 00:08:49,360 - > 00:08:52,240 commissions and you're gonna be trying to convince people to 188 00:08:52,240 - > 00:08:52,960 sell, etc. 189 00:08:53,200 - > 00:08:56,320 So, and of course, you know, have a completely opposite 190 00:08:56,320 - > 00:08:57,519 opinion now about sales. 191 00:08:57,679 - > 00:09:00,399 Of course, but I love that you grew up with that. 192 00:09:00,480 - > 00:09:01,679 That's pretty amazing. 193 00:09:02,159 - > 00:09:06,399 So, what um I guess a little bit more in depth, like what made 194 00:09:06,399 - > 00:09:11,679 you land within that um, you know, 10 to 20 years or 10 to 20 195 00:09:11,679 - > 00:09:13,120 million already in sales. 196 00:09:13,279 - > 00:09:16,240 Um, you know, you said the startup world wasn't really like 197 00:09:16,399 - > 00:09:19,200 it was like too chaotic, and then this was your sweet spot, 198 00:09:19,279 - > 00:09:22,399 and then the five Fortune 500 was like way different. 199 00:09:22,639 - > 00:09:25,279 I guess what are the main differences between the three? 200 00:09:25,600 - > 00:09:27,759 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, so it's interesting because what we did 201 00:09:27,759 - > 00:09:32,320 at Miller Hyman was basically train people in a methodology so 202 00:09:32,320 - > 00:09:35,600 that they could improve their sales, and that was all about a 203 00:09:35,600 - > 00:09:36,639 complex sale. 204 00:09:37,039 - > 00:09:40,320 Companies that were selling things that cost hundreds of 205 00:09:40,320 - > 00:09:43,279 thousands or millions of dollars, had a long sales cycle. 206 00:09:43,440 - > 00:09:46,080 You had to talk to lots of buying influences to get the 207 00:09:46,080 - > 00:09:46,879 deal done, right? 208 00:09:47,039 - > 00:09:50,000 So I'm heavily steeped in the complex sale. 209 00:09:50,159 - > 00:09:53,600 And what I found is that these smaller companies are trying to 210 00:09:53,600 - > 00:09:57,200 sell to really big companies, the Fortune 500 and other in 211 00:09:57,200 - > 00:10:00,000 between, and they have a complex sale. 212 00:10:00,080 - > 00:10:03,360 Also, they really don't know how to do that, right? 213 00:10:03,600 - > 00:10:06,559 So it was like, wow, I can really make an impact here 214 00:10:06,799 - > 00:10:09,360 because they don't know how to do this thing, they're 215 00:10:09,360 - > 00:10:10,240 struggling. 216 00:10:10,480 - > 00:10:16,399 Um, and then also uh by the time you've got your company to 10 217 00:10:16,399 - > 00:10:19,600 years, you you've learned some stuff, you know, some stuff. 218 00:10:19,759 - > 00:10:24,639 These fresh CEOs who these VCs were throwing money at, and even 219 00:10:24,639 - > 00:10:27,200 still today, I don't like to work with startups very much. 220 00:10:27,360 - > 00:10:31,600 I do mentor a few startups, but only if they have benevolent 221 00:10:31,600 - > 00:10:33,679 backers, like if they're a PE firm. 222 00:10:33,840 - > 00:10:34,879 I like PE a lot. 223 00:10:34,960 - > 00:10:38,159 They're much more benevolent than VC, although VC has 224 00:10:38,159 - > 00:10:40,799 changed, but it's still pretty volatile, right? 225 00:10:40,960 - > 00:10:46,399 So I like to work with uh founder-led companies where 226 00:10:46,720 - > 00:10:50,080 there's no backing except maybe some friends and family. 227 00:10:50,240 - > 00:10:54,559 So most of my clients today um bootstrapped their company and 228 00:10:54,559 - > 00:10:58,159 got it to where it is, want to grow it further so they have 229 00:10:58,159 - > 00:11:02,559 lots of opportunities to either acquire other companies or uh 230 00:11:02,559 - > 00:11:06,720 get some debt or equity financing or exit eventually, 231 00:11:06,960 - > 00:11:07,279 right? 232 00:11:07,759 - > 00:11:12,000 So it's just a place where I found that I can make a really 233 00:11:12,000 - > 00:11:16,480 big impact because they don't usually have a sales leader. 234 00:11:16,639 - > 00:11:20,399 A lot of times the salespeople still report to the CEO, or 235 00:11:20,399 - > 00:11:25,840 maybe they have um a sales leader, but there's not a lot of 236 00:11:25,840 - > 00:11:27,039 process in place. 237 00:11:27,360 - > 00:11:30,399 And so they're everybody's kind of doing their own thing. 238 00:11:30,559 - > 00:11:30,879 Yeah. 239 00:11:31,440 - > 00:11:35,759 And it's not, we're just not filling the pipeline fast enough 240 00:11:35,919 - > 00:11:39,840 or with enough, and we're not moving the deals through the 241 00:11:39,840 - > 00:11:43,279 pipeline fast enough or with the right rigor. 242 00:11:43,440 - > 00:11:47,039 Too many deals are dropping off, close rates are dropping, things 243 00:11:47,039 - > 00:11:47,600 like that. 244 00:11:47,759 - > 00:11:50,879 Uh, so you know, I can fix all of those things. 245 00:11:50,960 - > 00:11:51,840 I'm very good at it. 246 00:11:52,000 - > 00:11:53,759 I can make an impact in that space. 247 00:11:53,919 - > 00:11:57,120 They're trying to sell, you know, do deal strategies to sell 248 00:11:57,120 - > 00:11:58,480 to these really big companies. 249 00:11:58,720 - > 00:12:00,080 I know how to do that. 250 00:12:00,240 - > 00:12:04,639 And so, in that little arena, I can make a huge impact where, 251 00:12:04,720 - > 00:12:08,480 like at a Fortune 500 company, whether it's, you know, hundreds 252 00:12:08,480 - > 00:12:12,720 or thousands of salespeople and tons of sales leaders, it's just 253 00:12:12,720 - > 00:12:16,240 hard to get your arms around it and make any kind of a shift 254 00:12:16,240 - > 00:12:16,720 happen. 255 00:12:17,039 - > 00:12:21,360 And in the smaller companies, the shifts happen and and they 256 00:12:21,360 - > 00:12:24,879 want them to happen, and they're actively working with me to make 257 00:12:24,879 - > 00:12:25,919 those shifts happen. 258 00:12:26,080 - > 00:12:29,360 So it's it's just a it's really lovely place to work. 259 00:12:29,440 - > 00:12:32,639 Most of my clients are between like that 10 and 50 million in 260 00:12:32,639 - > 00:12:36,879 revenue, and they're trying to get to their next big milestone 261 00:12:36,960 - > 00:12:41,279 so that they, you know, they can have some choices to do some 262 00:12:41,279 - > 00:12:42,000 different things. 263 00:12:42,320 - > 00:12:42,639 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 264 00:12:42,879 - > 00:12:46,159 One of the things you mentioned is that you said that a lot of 265 00:12:46,159 - > 00:12:50,000 leaders or even founders kind of unloading, unknowingly stall 266 00:12:50,000 - > 00:12:51,679 their own revenue motion. 267 00:12:51,919 - > 00:12:55,039 What is what does that look like and what why does that even 268 00:12:55,039 - > 00:12:55,519 happen? 269 00:12:55,759 - > 00:12:58,960 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I call that when I call that the sales 270 00:12:58,960 - > 00:12:59,919 prevention department. 271 00:13:00,080 - > 00:13:03,600 And like I tell the CEO, you don't want to be the sales 272 00:13:03,600 - > 00:13:04,879 prevention department. 273 00:13:05,120 - > 00:13:07,120 That is not a good idea, right? 274 00:13:07,519 - > 00:13:10,879 But it's inadvertent, like they don't even know they're doing 275 00:13:10,879 - > 00:13:11,120 it. 276 00:13:11,360 - > 00:13:11,679 SPEAKER_02: Right. 277 00:13:11,919 - > 00:13:16,000 SPEAKER_00: They don't realize that their actions or reactions 278 00:13:16,639 - > 00:13:20,639 are, you know, creating a roadblock of some type. 279 00:13:20,879 - > 00:13:25,519 A super easy example is in most companies where they're selling 280 00:13:25,519 - > 00:13:28,559 to larger companies, there are contracts. 281 00:13:28,879 - > 00:13:32,240 And the small company, of course, wants they call it their 282 00:13:32,240 - > 00:13:32,559 paper. 283 00:13:32,720 - > 00:13:33,600 They want their paper. 284 00:13:33,679 - > 00:13:35,679 They want to do the deal on their paper, right? 285 00:13:35,840 - > 00:13:36,559 Their contract. 286 00:13:37,279 - > 00:13:41,120 But the big company wants an MSA, a master service agreement, 287 00:13:41,200 - > 00:13:43,679 they want it on their paper and they want it done their way. 288 00:13:43,840 - > 00:13:47,440 So first there's just the negotiation over whose contract 289 00:13:47,440 - > 00:13:50,480 they're going to start with, and then the redlining begins. 290 00:13:50,639 - > 00:13:55,679 And so that has to go somewhere at this smaller company. 291 00:13:55,840 - > 00:13:58,879 Now, the companies the size I work with don't have legal 292 00:13:58,879 - > 00:13:59,919 counsel in-house. 293 00:14:00,080 - > 00:14:02,799 You know, these big companies do, but my clients don't have 294 00:14:02,799 - > 00:14:04,080 legal counsel in-house. 295 00:14:04,240 - > 00:14:09,759 So they have to hire outside legal counsel, or the CEO is 296 00:14:10,000 - > 00:14:14,720 looking at the red lines and trying to, you know, negotiate 297 00:14:14,720 - > 00:14:15,440 those contracts. 298 00:14:15,600 - > 00:14:16,960 Well, that takes a lot of time. 299 00:14:17,039 - > 00:14:20,480 And a CEO has a lot of other things they have to do, right? 300 00:14:20,720 - > 00:14:24,559 Including sometimes be involved in some of the larger deals. 301 00:14:24,879 - > 00:14:29,519 So when you have a CEO who thinks, you know, they can 302 00:14:29,519 - > 00:14:33,679 manage these contracts, they're almost always holding it up 303 00:14:33,919 - > 00:14:36,799 because they simply don't have time and they think they're 304 00:14:36,799 - > 00:14:39,039 going to do it, and then they end up trying to do it at night 305 00:14:39,039 - > 00:14:41,840 when they're tired, and then the next day it's still not done. 306 00:14:41,919 - > 00:14:46,240 And now a week has gone by, and the salesperson is like, I could 307 00:14:46,240 - > 00:14:49,120 have closed this deal by now, right? 308 00:14:49,279 - > 00:14:49,440 Yeah. 309 00:14:49,600 - > 00:14:52,000 And you still have the contract in your hands. 310 00:14:52,240 - > 00:14:55,600 Um, now this happens in slightly larger companies too. 311 00:14:55,759 - > 00:14:59,360 I had um a venture-backed company that I was working with 312 00:14:59,360 - > 00:15:02,960 several years ago that was probably around the$500 million 313 00:15:03,440 - > 00:15:07,440 range, a little larger than I usually work with, but they had 314 00:15:07,440 - > 00:15:11,279 internal legal people, but they were doing a first in, first out 315 00:15:11,279 - > 00:15:11,919 methodology. 316 00:15:12,000 - > 00:15:15,120 And so the deals were sitting there waiting for some other 317 00:15:15,120 - > 00:15:18,240 contracts that had no consequence, right? 318 00:15:18,639 - > 00:15:21,679 And the CEO was allowing this to happen. 319 00:15:21,919 - > 00:15:25,120 So again, the CEO was still the sales prevention department, it 320 00:15:25,120 - > 00:15:26,799 appeared to be the legal department. 321 00:15:27,039 - > 00:15:27,600 Yeah, yeah. 322 00:15:27,759 - > 00:15:32,159 But it's like, hey, you're the only one CEO who can get these 323 00:15:32,159 - > 00:15:34,320 attorneys to pay attention. 324 00:15:34,559 - > 00:15:38,240 And in this case, it was three weeks illegal. 325 00:15:38,399 - > 00:15:42,559 And can you imagine a salesperson waiting for legal or 326 00:15:42,639 - > 00:15:44,480 three weeks to close a deal? 327 00:15:44,720 - > 00:15:46,639 I mean, you're losing customers at that point. 328 00:15:47,200 - > 00:15:51,440 So it's a simple example, but other things that are easy to, 329 00:15:51,519 - > 00:15:55,679 you know, point to are things like a leader measuring the 330 00:15:55,679 - > 00:16:01,039 wrong things and the and the CEO looking at those measures and 331 00:16:01,039 - > 00:16:02,480 then making decisions about them. 332 00:16:02,639 - > 00:16:10,159 So instead of measuring how many um calls or contacts salespeople 333 00:16:10,159 - > 00:16:13,440 have each day with someone who can buy from them, you know, a 334 00:16:13,440 - > 00:16:16,559 real conversation, right, about with someone who can buy from 335 00:16:16,559 - > 00:16:19,600 them, they're measuring how many emails did they send, how many 336 00:16:19,600 - > 00:16:23,279 LinkedIns did they send, you know, how many dials did they 337 00:16:23,279 - > 00:16:23,519 make? 338 00:16:23,679 - > 00:16:25,600 I don't care how many dials you make. 339 00:16:25,759 - > 00:16:28,799 If you make 10 dials and talk to 10 people, hallelujah. 340 00:16:29,039 - > 00:16:33,519 If you make a thousand dials and talk to 10 people, if the 10 is 341 00:16:33,519 - > 00:16:35,519 your quota, then that's great too. 342 00:16:35,600 - > 00:16:37,360 But why would you want to do a thousand, right? 343 00:16:37,440 - > 00:16:41,279 So it's like, okay, like what is the real metric? 344 00:16:41,440 - > 00:16:44,240 The real metric is do salespeople have conversations 345 00:16:44,240 - > 00:16:45,279 with people who can buy? 346 00:16:45,440 - > 00:16:46,559 So forget the rest of it. 347 00:16:46,639 - > 00:16:47,759 However, they get there. 348 00:16:47,919 - > 00:16:51,039 If they get referrals, if they make a lot of dials, if they 349 00:16:51,039 - > 00:16:53,919 sell send great emails, I don't care how they get there. 350 00:16:54,080 - > 00:16:56,480 I want them having 10 conversations a day with people 351 00:16:56,480 - > 00:16:57,360 who can buy, right? 352 00:16:57,519 - > 00:16:58,720 Or whatever your number is. 353 00:16:58,799 - > 00:17:01,600 It might be five, it might be, you know, 50. 354 00:17:01,679 - > 00:17:02,480 I don't know. 355 00:17:02,720 - > 00:17:05,759 But you you're measuring the wrong things, you become the 356 00:17:05,759 - > 00:17:09,200 sales prevention department because now salespeople are 357 00:17:09,200 - > 00:17:13,440 focused on sending more email versus getting a conversation, 358 00:17:13,599 - > 00:17:13,839 yeah. 359 00:17:14,799 - > 00:17:17,599 SPEAKER_02: Leading versus lagging indicators, exactly, 360 00:17:17,759 - > 00:17:18,000 right? 361 00:17:18,160 - > 00:17:20,559 SPEAKER_00: And so we we don't want any of that, and that's 362 00:17:20,559 - > 00:17:23,119 another way, just leading versus lagging. 363 00:17:23,200 - > 00:17:26,000 So by the end of the month, when we've missed our number, it's 364 00:17:26,000 - > 00:17:26,640 too late. 365 00:17:26,799 - > 00:17:27,039 Yeah. 366 00:17:27,200 - > 00:17:32,480 So as a CEO, if that's what you're counting on, again, you 367 00:17:32,480 - > 00:17:33,519 are in the way. 368 00:17:33,759 - > 00:17:37,440 You need to get your sales team to set up the leading indicators 369 00:17:37,440 - > 00:17:39,279 for you and monitor those. 370 00:17:39,599 - > 00:17:40,000 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 371 00:17:40,319 - > 00:17:43,200 Speaking of bottlenecks and leadership, you know, with the 372 00:17:43,200 - > 00:17:47,759 CEO, um, a lot of senior leaders come up in leadership through 373 00:17:47,759 - > 00:17:48,640 sales themselves. 374 00:17:48,799 - > 00:17:51,359 Like maybe they were a top performer at some point. 375 00:17:51,759 - > 00:17:54,880 At what point do you feel like that experience is more like a 376 00:17:54,880 - > 00:17:58,240 liability versus an asset, especially when you're leading a 377 00:17:58,240 - > 00:17:58,559 team? 378 00:17:58,880 - > 00:18:00,880 SPEAKER_00: Arve, that's such a great question. 379 00:18:01,119 - > 00:18:04,400 And, you know, if you look around at most organizations, 380 00:18:04,720 - > 00:18:06,720 leadership is a liability. 381 00:18:07,200 - > 00:18:12,640 And it's really an easy problem to fix, but it does cost either 382 00:18:12,640 - > 00:18:14,640 time or money or both, right? 383 00:18:15,039 - > 00:18:19,440 And so promoting people from within is a wonderful practice 384 00:18:19,680 - > 00:18:25,039 if you have done succession planning, if you have, as an HR 385 00:18:25,039 - > 00:18:30,400 team or as a leadership team, noted who might be a leader in 386 00:18:30,400 - > 00:18:32,880 the future, who has that propensity, who sort of 387 00:18:32,880 - > 00:18:37,759 naturally takes the lead, and then you start to develop them. 388 00:18:38,000 - > 00:18:41,039 You might send them to some training, have them read 389 00:18:41,039 - > 00:18:43,519 something, have somebody mentor them. 390 00:18:43,839 - > 00:18:48,000 So then when you need a sales leader, especially, right? 391 00:18:48,160 - > 00:18:53,519 You have been grooming some of the people on your team so that 392 00:18:53,519 - > 00:18:55,359 they could step into that role. 393 00:18:55,519 - > 00:18:56,799 But that's not how we do it. 394 00:18:56,960 - > 00:19:00,480 We just go, oh, you, you've been the best salesperson. 395 00:19:00,799 - > 00:19:02,000 Why don't you go ahead and lead? 396 00:19:02,079 - > 00:19:02,640 Do you want to lead? 397 00:19:02,799 - > 00:19:04,640 They say yes, they say no, whatever. 398 00:19:04,799 - > 00:19:09,039 If they say yes, you promote them, give them zero training. 399 00:19:09,279 - > 00:19:13,039 The only thing they know is how they have been managed, and they 400 00:19:13,039 - > 00:19:16,480 either like that or don't like that, and then try their own 401 00:19:16,480 - > 00:19:17,279 way, right? 402 00:19:17,759 - > 00:19:22,079 Um, and in a lot of cases, we promote people and they're still 403 00:19:22,079 - > 00:19:26,240 carrying a quota, and so they're competing against their own 404 00:19:26,240 - > 00:19:27,279 salespeople. 405 00:19:27,759 - > 00:19:31,039 It's, you know, we just do a we we make a lot of mistakes in 406 00:19:31,039 - > 00:19:31,440 this area. 407 00:19:31,519 - > 00:19:33,359 Again, I'll point back to the CEO. 408 00:19:33,599 - > 00:19:38,640 The CEO, it it is the CEO's responsibility to make sure 409 00:19:38,640 - > 00:19:41,680 there is succession planning going on, that people are being 410 00:19:41,680 - > 00:19:45,200 developed, and that you have people in your organization that 411 00:19:45,200 - > 00:19:48,319 can be promoted and know how to do the job. 412 00:19:48,480 - > 00:19:51,519 And if you don't, then you do need to hire from the outside. 413 00:19:51,680 - > 00:19:56,720 But hiring sales leaders is hard work to really find someone who 414 00:19:56,720 - > 00:19:57,440 can do the job. 415 00:19:57,680 - > 00:20:00,880 The interview process, we don't, it's not rigorous enough. 416 00:20:01,039 - > 00:20:02,880 We don't ask the right questions. 417 00:20:03,119 - > 00:20:05,599 Uh, we really don't know how to do it very well. 418 00:20:05,680 - > 00:20:09,519 So we end up again with sales leaders who really don't know 419 00:20:09,519 - > 00:20:10,079 what to do. 420 00:20:10,319 - > 00:20:14,319 So it's no wonder that salespeople don't hit their 421 00:20:14,640 - > 00:20:15,279 target. 422 00:20:15,680 - > 00:20:19,599 It's not necessarily the salesperson, it's what they're 423 00:20:19,599 - > 00:20:23,119 being asked to do and how they're being managed and 424 00:20:23,119 - > 00:20:26,240 coached and developed, which typically the coaching and 425 00:20:26,240 - > 00:20:28,000 development is completely devoid. 426 00:20:28,079 - > 00:20:29,440 Like there is none, right? 427 00:20:29,599 - > 00:20:33,839 It's just managing you to some metrics that somebody 428 00:20:33,839 - > 00:20:36,799 arbitrarily set and it's not working. 429 00:20:37,359 - > 00:20:40,319 SPEAKER_02: That's I love that you said that because I see it a 430 00:20:40,319 - > 00:20:41,759 lot on the hiring side. 431 00:20:42,000 - > 00:20:45,599 First of all, if you have understood so far, like what 432 00:20:45,599 - > 00:20:49,279 leads CEOs and founders and leaders to promote the top 433 00:20:49,279 - > 00:20:52,319 performers, please share it because I think everybody would 434 00:20:52,319 - > 00:20:53,039 want to know. 435 00:20:53,200 - > 00:20:57,119 Uh, but outside of that, I will say I see it all the time when 436 00:20:57,200 - > 00:20:59,920 when leaders are hiring with me or founders are hiring through 437 00:20:59,920 - > 00:21:00,079 me. 438 00:21:00,240 - > 00:21:04,160 They're like, hey, I want your top competitors, salesperson, 439 00:21:04,480 - > 00:21:07,119 you know, to come over here and like do the same thing they did 440 00:21:07,200 - > 00:21:07,839 there here. 441 00:21:08,000 - > 00:21:11,200 And I'm like, that sounds great in theory, but do you have the 442 00:21:11,200 - > 00:21:11,920 same processes? 443 00:21:12,079 - > 00:21:13,279 Do you have the same leadership? 444 00:21:13,359 - > 00:21:14,480 I mean, there's so much that goes on. 445 00:21:14,880 - > 00:21:18,799 SPEAKER_00: You have the same territory, the same lead flow. 446 00:21:18,960 - > 00:21:20,880 I mean, this is what's crazy, right? 447 00:21:21,039 - > 00:21:23,519 So I'll go back to the first thing, which is why do we 448 00:21:23,519 - > 00:21:24,240 promote those people? 449 00:21:24,400 - > 00:21:26,400 Because we have no one else, we don't know what else to do. 450 00:21:26,640 - > 00:21:29,279 That's fair, and that's just the way we've always operated. 451 00:21:29,359 - > 00:21:30,960 So we just do it because it's easy, right? 452 00:21:31,039 - > 00:21:32,079 So it's super simple. 453 00:21:32,240 - > 00:21:35,359 There's no, you know, thinking behind it, other than this, we 454 00:21:35,359 - > 00:21:36,799 need a leader, this person can lead. 455 00:21:36,880 - > 00:21:40,640 Our last leader left, we got to fill the gap, put the person in, 456 00:21:40,720 - > 00:21:41,119 you know. 457 00:21:41,359 - > 00:21:43,440 So it's it's really hard. 458 00:21:43,599 - > 00:21:47,279 And as you know, finding good talent, there's a lot of people 459 00:21:47,279 - > 00:21:51,759 out there, but finding good talent is always difficult. 460 00:21:51,839 - > 00:21:53,680 And we we never take enough time. 461 00:21:53,839 - > 00:21:57,200 And and part of the problem is the really good talent will go 462 00:21:57,200 - > 00:21:57,519 fast. 463 00:21:57,839 - > 00:21:59,759 They want a job, they will get a job. 464 00:22:00,240 - > 00:22:03,440 And if you're going slow trying to make sure it's a really good 465 00:22:03,440 - > 00:22:06,240 fit, you will miss that candidate, right? 466 00:22:06,480 - > 00:22:10,559 And so it's very difficult balance to get those 467 00:22:10,559 - > 00:22:14,559 conversations in and that understanding in of who this 468 00:22:14,559 - > 00:22:17,279 person is to know whether they're the right fit or not, 469 00:22:17,359 - > 00:22:20,000 um, and do it quickly enough so they don't take another job. 470 00:22:20,160 - > 00:22:21,359 So it's challenging. 471 00:22:21,440 - > 00:22:24,799 I'm not saying it's not, but we all could learn how to do a 472 00:22:24,799 - > 00:22:25,920 better job, right? 473 00:22:26,480 - > 00:22:30,640 But then what you just said about I'm gonna hire, you know, 474 00:22:30,720 - > 00:22:33,759 the top salesperson from this other company, blah, blah, blah. 475 00:22:33,839 - > 00:22:35,920 Well, first of all, why would that person ever want to come 476 00:22:35,920 - > 00:22:36,319 work for you? 477 00:22:36,480 - > 00:22:37,200 Think about it. 478 00:22:37,839 - > 00:22:38,880 SPEAKER_02: Salespeople are loyal. 479 00:22:39,200 - > 00:22:41,119 Thank you for saying that because I say that all the time. 480 00:22:44,079 - > 00:22:46,160 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they have gotten to a point where they're 481 00:22:46,160 - > 00:22:49,200 making X amount of dollars and they want to continue making 482 00:22:49,200 - > 00:22:49,440 that. 483 00:22:49,680 - > 00:22:51,599 Now you're asking them to switch. 484 00:22:51,759 - > 00:22:54,720 You're not gonna provide the same amount of pay that they're 485 00:22:54,720 - > 00:22:55,039 getting. 486 00:22:55,200 - > 00:22:58,880 And if you do, you're probably overpaying because you're not in 487 00:22:58,880 - > 00:23:02,559 a position to do that and they haven't proven themselves at 488 00:23:02,559 - > 00:23:04,240 your company yet, right? 489 00:23:04,559 - > 00:23:08,720 And so it's sort of like recruiting for sports, like for 490 00:23:09,039 - > 00:23:14,079 baseball, where you don't want the best, you know, person. 491 00:23:14,240 - > 00:23:18,240 You want the one who has that fight in him, that has the right 492 00:23:18,240 - > 00:23:21,759 characteristics, that's the up and comer that you can then 493 00:23:21,759 - > 00:23:23,920 groom into your company, right? 494 00:23:24,000 - > 00:23:25,599 To do to be that person. 495 00:23:25,920 - > 00:23:30,000 Um, hiring, you know, the best salesperson from another company 496 00:23:30,160 - > 00:23:32,319 is first of all, it's rarely going to really happen. 497 00:23:32,480 - > 00:23:35,680 Secondly, they will not perform at your company the way they 498 00:23:35,680 - > 00:23:39,039 performed at the other company because they don't get to steal 499 00:23:39,039 - > 00:23:39,680 customers. 500 00:23:39,920 - > 00:23:44,799 And believe it or not, customers are loyal to the brand, not 501 00:23:44,799 - > 00:23:46,160 necessarily the salesperson. 502 00:23:46,480 - > 00:23:50,240 I mean, plus, there's non-compete and there's just 503 00:23:50,240 - > 00:23:51,119 integrity. 504 00:23:51,279 - > 00:23:54,240 You just don't go steal customers, it's just not the way 505 00:23:54,240 - > 00:23:54,720 it works. 506 00:23:54,880 - > 00:23:57,440 So, you're not gonna get somebody who has this big book 507 00:23:57,440 - > 00:23:59,519 of business to just bring it over to you. 508 00:23:59,599 - > 00:24:00,880 It just doesn't work that way. 509 00:24:01,039 - > 00:24:02,960 If you want that, then acquire the company. 510 00:24:03,119 - > 00:24:04,319 That's how you get that. 511 00:24:04,640 - > 00:24:09,599 You go buy that company, but their top salesperson isn't 512 00:24:09,599 - > 00:24:10,400 gonna cut it. 513 00:24:10,640 - > 00:24:12,720 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and by the way, just to clarify, I don't 514 00:24:12,720 - > 00:24:15,839 think there's anything wrong with going after a competitor 515 00:24:15,839 - > 00:24:18,000 and hiring salespeople from them, right? 516 00:24:18,079 - > 00:24:20,720 It's just, I think what you and I are talking about is just that 517 00:24:20,720 - > 00:24:24,640 top performer mentality that you want them to come here and do 518 00:24:24,640 - > 00:24:26,319 exactly what they did for that company. 519 00:24:26,480 - > 00:24:28,319 SPEAKER_00: You definitely don't want that, but it took them 520 00:24:28,319 - > 00:24:30,720 years to do that at that company, it didn't happen 521 00:24:30,720 - > 00:24:34,720 overnight, and sure, hire people for your from your competitor if 522 00:24:34,720 - > 00:24:37,200 that works in your industry. 523 00:24:37,519 - > 00:24:39,279 But be careful, right? 524 00:24:39,839 - > 00:24:42,960 Um, because it's hard to switch your loyalty. 525 00:24:43,359 - > 00:24:47,920 And you know, what I've noticed is when we make offers to 526 00:24:47,920 - > 00:24:51,519 people, to salespeople at our competitors' companies, the 527 00:24:51,519 - > 00:24:53,519 competitor will usually match it. 528 00:24:53,839 - > 00:24:54,160 Yeah. 529 00:24:54,319 - > 00:24:55,839 And and then the person will stay. 530 00:24:55,920 - > 00:24:57,440 So we don't end up getting them anyway. 531 00:24:57,519 - > 00:24:59,440 It's it's a difficult one for sure. 532 00:24:59,599 - > 00:25:03,440 I like to stay kind of on the periphery, like you sell into 533 00:25:03,440 - > 00:25:06,559 the same market, but you don't sell the same a similar item, 534 00:25:06,640 - > 00:25:09,519 you know, and I think that works a little bit better. 535 00:25:09,599 - > 00:25:12,559 But yeah, I mean, if somebody from your competitor wants to 536 00:25:12,559 - > 00:25:15,599 come over and work for your company and it's a good fit, 537 00:25:15,759 - > 00:25:17,279 yeah, go ahead and do it. 538 00:25:17,759 - > 00:25:18,799 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, love that. 539 00:25:18,960 - > 00:25:22,240 Um, I'm actually curious, Alice, when you start working with the 540 00:25:22,240 - > 00:25:26,480 leadership team, what are like some things initially that you 541 00:25:26,480 - > 00:25:30,079 diagnose before you even start touching their strategy or 542 00:25:30,079 - > 00:25:31,759 headcount in general? 543 00:25:32,240 - > 00:25:35,119 SPEAKER_00: That has changed over the years for sure. 544 00:25:35,519 - > 00:25:38,880 But the very first thing I do is I'll have several conversations 545 00:25:38,880 - > 00:25:42,640 with the CEO before I decide if I'm gonna work with them or not. 546 00:25:42,880 - > 00:25:44,319 And does that take time? 547 00:25:44,480 - > 00:25:45,279 Yes, it does. 548 00:25:45,440 - > 00:25:48,240 Uh, does it increase the cost of my sale? 549 00:25:48,400 - > 00:25:49,279 Yes, it does. 550 00:25:49,599 - > 00:25:53,599 But especially at this point in my career, I don't want to work 551 00:25:53,599 - > 00:25:59,279 with a CEO who really is not going to take it seriously and 552 00:25:59,279 - > 00:26:01,200 take the actions that they need to take. 553 00:26:01,359 - > 00:26:04,640 You're telling me you want to change, change takes action, 554 00:26:04,880 - > 00:26:05,200 right? 555 00:26:06,000 - > 00:26:08,319 It doesn't happen around you. 556 00:26:08,640 - > 00:26:10,079 You make it happen. 557 00:26:10,160 - > 00:26:12,000 And that means you, it starts with you. 558 00:26:12,160 - > 00:26:13,279 You have to change, right? 559 00:26:13,519 - > 00:26:18,799 So I really want to talk to the CEO and learn about them and 560 00:26:18,799 - > 00:26:22,160 understand what they want, how they got where they are, and 561 00:26:22,160 - > 00:26:24,480 then make a decision about whether I think it's a good fit 562 00:26:24,480 - > 00:26:25,680 for us to work together. 563 00:26:25,839 - > 00:26:29,920 And then, and then before I will, you know, dive in and you 564 00:26:29,920 - > 00:26:33,839 know, do a contract with them, I usually want to talk to at least 565 00:26:33,839 - > 00:26:37,920 their sales leader and maybe some of the other leadership 566 00:26:37,920 - > 00:26:41,680 teams so I can understand what role they play, how they think 567 00:26:41,680 - > 00:26:42,319 about this problem. 568 00:26:42,400 - > 00:26:45,519 I know what the CEO thinks about this problem or challenge, 569 00:26:45,680 - > 00:26:45,839 right? 570 00:26:45,920 - > 00:26:48,160 And the growth, but what do they think? 571 00:26:48,319 - > 00:26:51,359 You know, and do they have the same thinking? 572 00:26:51,440 - > 00:26:53,599 Because I want to know is this going to be an uphill battle? 573 00:26:53,759 - > 00:26:55,680 No one agrees with the CEO. 574 00:26:55,920 - > 00:26:59,680 Um, I want to talk with some other people at the company. 575 00:26:59,839 - > 00:27:03,680 And then once I'm like, okay, great, I think we can do this 576 00:27:03,680 - > 00:27:04,160 together. 577 00:27:04,319 - > 00:27:06,000 I would love to work with you. 578 00:27:06,319 - > 00:27:10,079 We set up an agreement of what the work is going to be. 579 00:27:10,319 - > 00:27:14,400 And then I, you know, first off want to find out what is 580 00:27:14,400 - > 00:27:15,200 happening in sales. 581 00:27:15,279 - > 00:27:18,079 So what, you know, call it a pipeline, call it a funnel. 582 00:27:18,160 - > 00:27:21,680 I prefer to call it a funnel, but on that funnel or that 583 00:27:21,680 - > 00:27:24,240 pipeline of deals, I want to see that. 584 00:27:24,400 - > 00:27:25,680 I want to see what's in there. 585 00:27:25,839 - > 00:27:27,200 I want to see what's the deal. 586 00:27:27,599 - > 00:27:29,200 I want to see if it's full enough. 587 00:27:29,359 - > 00:27:34,240 I want to see what the uh sales cycle is and what the close 588 00:27:34,240 - > 00:27:37,920 ratio is because I want to make improvements immediately, right? 589 00:27:38,079 - > 00:27:41,279 So I want to get those deals moving. 590 00:27:41,519 - > 00:27:46,160 And if there's not enough, then the very first thing I do is go 591 00:27:46,160 - > 00:27:49,359 to the existing customer base and I want to learn what is 592 00:27:49,359 - > 00:27:51,200 going on in your existing customer base? 593 00:27:51,279 - > 00:27:52,000 What are they buying? 594 00:27:52,160 - > 00:27:53,039 What are they not buying? 595 00:27:53,200 - > 00:27:54,000 Are they happy? 596 00:27:54,240 - > 00:27:55,440 Are they unhappy? 597 00:27:55,680 - > 00:27:59,680 Are they willing to provide referrals for you and make 598 00:27:59,680 - > 00:28:00,880 introductions? 599 00:28:01,039 - > 00:28:04,400 Uh, you know, are they are there things they're not buying that 600 00:28:04,400 - > 00:28:07,200 they should be buying because their company would benefit 601 00:28:07,200 - > 00:28:07,920 greatly, right? 602 00:28:08,079 - > 00:28:11,039 So I really want to examine what's happening in the existing 603 00:28:11,039 - > 00:28:14,160 customer base because there's usually millions of dollars just 604 00:28:14,160 - > 00:28:15,119 sitting right there. 605 00:28:15,279 - > 00:28:18,160 And it's the fastest way to increase sales. 606 00:28:18,400 - > 00:28:20,319 Just go to your existing customer base. 607 00:28:20,400 - > 00:28:23,519 Even let's say you sell something that's a one-time 608 00:28:23,519 - > 00:28:25,440 thing and they can't buy any more of it. 609 00:28:25,680 - > 00:28:28,799 They know other people who can, their own vendors, their own 610 00:28:28,799 - > 00:28:32,880 customers, uh, their, you know, their business colleagues. 611 00:28:33,119 - > 00:28:36,559 So they are able to make introductions for you. 612 00:28:36,640 - > 00:28:39,839 But most companies just completely ignore that. 613 00:28:40,000 - > 00:28:45,279 They, for some reason, don't work that process of getting 614 00:28:45,279 - > 00:28:48,640 referrals on a regular basis from their existing customers. 615 00:28:48,720 - > 00:28:52,559 And so that's a really important process that most companies do 616 00:28:52,559 - > 00:28:55,119 not have in place and need to install. 617 00:28:55,680 - > 00:28:57,599 SPEAKER_02: I want to dive if you're okay with it, a little 618 00:28:57,599 - > 00:28:58,319 bit deeper to that. 619 00:28:58,480 - > 00:29:01,039 First of all, why do you think that is that we have a customer 620 00:29:01,039 - > 00:29:03,599 base and you know, we don't go and get more referrals? 621 00:29:03,680 - > 00:29:06,960 And two, if part two to that would be can you give us some 622 00:29:06,960 - > 00:29:09,279 pointers of like what is maybe the correct way to do it? 623 00:29:09,359 - > 00:29:11,200 Because some of them just might not know. 624 00:29:11,519 - > 00:29:14,880 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, RV, I think that's that is so 625 00:29:14,880 - > 00:29:19,279 important um to really dive into because I think the reason they 626 00:29:19,279 - > 00:29:23,279 don't do it is because companies get so focused on bringing in 627 00:29:23,279 - > 00:29:24,640 brand new business, right? 628 00:29:24,880 - > 00:29:27,680 Go out and get new customers. 629 00:29:28,000 - > 00:29:32,640 Well, that is important for sure, but new customers cost 630 00:29:32,880 - > 00:29:33,680 more, right? 631 00:29:34,000 - > 00:29:35,839 And it takes longer. 632 00:29:36,319 - > 00:29:40,799 And you know, the the first deal size might be smaller. 633 00:29:40,960 - > 00:29:42,559 There's there's a lot of things about that. 634 00:29:42,640 - > 00:29:45,680 So, yes, you should have a team who's focused on going out to 635 00:29:45,680 - > 00:29:46,720 get new business. 636 00:29:46,960 - > 00:29:51,599 But imagine if that team was fed by introductions, right? 637 00:29:51,680 - > 00:29:56,000 So instead of having to go out cold, that team looking for new 638 00:29:56,000 - > 00:29:59,200 business could always get it through an introduction. 639 00:29:59,680 - > 00:30:00,559 Amazing, right? 640 00:30:00,720 - > 00:30:04,880 We all are like worried about you know, our salespeople not 641 00:30:04,880 - > 00:30:07,519 having enough conversations with people who can buy. 642 00:30:07,680 - > 00:30:10,880 But if you have a team of account managers and customer 643 00:30:10,880 - > 00:30:15,119 success people who are delighting your customers, 644 00:30:15,440 - > 00:30:20,000 building strong relationships, you know, delivering as promised 645 00:30:20,160 - > 00:30:23,839 and you know, over and above, all of that good stuff, just 646 00:30:23,839 - > 00:30:26,960 like it should be, you know, meeting not just meeting 647 00:30:26,960 - > 00:30:28,799 expectations, but exceeding them. 648 00:30:28,960 - > 00:30:33,359 They have earned the right to ask any customer that they have 649 00:30:33,359 - > 00:30:36,960 a good relationship with, hey, here's a few companies we're 650 00:30:36,960 - > 00:30:38,079 trying to get into. 651 00:30:38,480 - > 00:30:41,680 I'd love to get my my salesperson an introduction. 652 00:30:41,920 - > 00:30:43,519 Do you know this person or this person? 653 00:30:43,759 - > 00:30:45,119 You know, do you know any of these people? 654 00:30:45,279 - > 00:30:46,559 Could you make that introduction? 655 00:30:46,720 - > 00:30:46,960 Right. 656 00:30:47,119 - > 00:30:48,799 We're just not doing it. 657 00:30:49,119 - > 00:30:53,440 And so, yes, go out and get new business, but don't ignore the 658 00:30:53,440 - > 00:30:54,240 business you have. 659 00:30:54,400 - > 00:30:59,440 The the other reason I think people think it's expensive, you 660 00:30:59,440 - > 00:30:59,519 know. 661 00:30:59,759 - > 00:31:02,559 Oh, we have an account executive, now we need an 662 00:31:02,559 - > 00:31:05,200 account manager and a customer success person. 663 00:31:05,359 - > 00:31:06,960 That's a lot of money, right? 664 00:31:07,279 - > 00:31:09,920 Um, but it's really not. 665 00:31:10,480 - > 00:31:14,720 And when we maintain a great relationship with our existing 666 00:31:14,720 - > 00:31:17,839 customers, it's just so much easier. 667 00:31:18,000 - > 00:31:21,839 They, you know, we have a higher retention rate, they buy more 668 00:31:21,839 - > 00:31:24,160 from us, they renew easily. 669 00:31:24,480 - > 00:31:29,119 And again, we're in a position then to ask them to make these 670 00:31:29,119 - > 00:31:29,839 introductions. 671 00:31:30,000 - > 00:31:31,920 So why don't we do it? 672 00:31:32,160 - > 00:31:35,119 Sometimes we just don't know to do it. 673 00:31:35,359 - > 00:31:38,319 Sometimes we don't have our process set up properly. 674 00:31:38,480 - > 00:31:42,160 That's probably, you know, that's probably the process 675 00:31:42,160 - > 00:31:43,359 isn't not there. 676 00:31:43,680 - > 00:31:47,359 And you know, I'll always say to companies, hey, so do you ever 677 00:31:47,359 - > 00:31:48,640 get any, you know, referrals? 678 00:31:48,720 - > 00:31:51,119 Like, you know, somebody calls you because somebody referred, 679 00:31:51,200 - > 00:31:52,559 you know, them to you. 680 00:31:52,640 - > 00:31:53,599 And oh yeah. 681 00:31:53,680 - > 00:31:55,519 I'm like, well, how many do you get? 682 00:31:55,599 - > 00:31:56,559 Like five a month? 683 00:31:56,720 - > 00:31:58,640 Oh no, like maybe five a year. 684 00:31:58,799 - > 00:32:00,400 I'm like, five a year? 685 00:32:00,559 - > 00:32:01,680 How many customers do you have? 686 00:32:01,759 - > 00:32:04,480 You have a hundred customers, you have a thousand customers. 687 00:32:05,039 - > 00:32:09,200 10% of them don't, you know, I mean, give you a referral. 688 00:32:09,279 - > 00:32:10,720 Like, what is going on here? 689 00:32:10,880 - > 00:32:14,720 So, but you do have to ask, and I do feel that people are 690 00:32:14,720 - > 00:32:18,960 uncomfortable asking, they don't know how to ask, and so they 691 00:32:18,960 - > 00:32:20,000 don't do it, right? 692 00:32:20,240 - > 00:32:23,440 So, first, like I said, your customer has to be delighted. 693 00:32:23,599 - > 00:32:26,880 Second, you have to have a relationship such that we could 694 00:32:26,960 - > 00:32:27,680 like RV. 695 00:32:27,920 - > 00:32:31,279 Hey, you know, I was just looking on your LinkedIn and I 696 00:32:31,279 - > 00:32:32,960 see that you know this person. 697 00:32:33,359 - > 00:32:36,799 Do you know her well enough to introduce me? 698 00:32:36,960 - > 00:32:37,200 Right. 699 00:32:37,279 - > 00:32:39,519 And then you can say, Oh, gosh, Alice, you know, I've been 700 00:32:39,519 - > 00:32:41,440 connected to her for years, but I don't really know her. 701 00:32:41,680 - > 00:32:42,720 Like, okay, no worries. 702 00:32:42,880 - > 00:32:45,759 Or you can say, you know, I do, I do know her. 703 00:32:45,920 - > 00:32:49,680 And then I can say, Well, would you tell her a little about me? 704 00:32:49,759 - > 00:32:53,440 And I could even write it for you and ask her if she'd be open 705 00:32:53,440 - > 00:32:54,640 to an introduction. 706 00:32:54,799 - > 00:32:58,319 And then you can connect us on LinkedIn or email or wherever, 707 00:32:58,480 - > 00:32:58,799 right? 708 00:32:59,039 - > 00:33:02,240 But when you think of how much time, effort, and energy is 709 00:33:02,240 - > 00:33:05,759 spent doing cold outreach in minutes. 710 00:33:05,920 - > 00:33:07,200 I could go through my LinkedIn. 711 00:33:07,359 - > 00:33:10,799 If you have LinkedIn Navigator, it's super easy to do. 712 00:33:11,039 - > 00:33:14,319 I can pull up RV in my LinkedIn Navigator. 713 00:33:14,400 - > 00:33:16,960 I can see every single person she's connected to. 714 00:33:17,200 - > 00:33:20,000 I can sort it out by I only want CEOs. 715 00:33:20,160 - > 00:33:24,000 Then I can see the CEOs that RV is connected to, and I can see 716 00:33:24,000 - > 00:33:25,119 what industry they're in. 717 00:33:25,200 - > 00:33:28,240 And then I can say, Arve, I see you're connected to these 718 00:33:28,240 - > 00:33:28,480 people. 719 00:33:28,720 - > 00:33:30,000 Can you can you help me? 720 00:33:30,160 - > 00:33:30,480 Right. 721 00:33:30,720 - > 00:33:32,640 But you you have to earn the right. 722 00:33:32,799 - > 00:33:33,920 You have to know how to ask. 723 00:33:34,000 - > 00:33:36,799 You have to make it easy for the person who's going to make the 724 00:33:36,799 - > 00:33:37,519 referral. 725 00:33:37,680 - > 00:33:40,160 And again, there's just no process around it. 726 00:33:40,400 - > 00:33:42,480 So they don't really do it. 727 00:33:42,720 - > 00:33:43,039 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 728 00:33:43,200 - > 00:33:46,799 And might I add, like when I or like, you know, in your example, 729 00:33:46,880 - > 00:33:51,039 if you know me, I'm more likely to respond to your message than 730 00:33:51,200 - > 00:33:52,960 somebody that you're reaching out cold. 731 00:33:53,200 - > 00:33:56,480 Um, it's kind of funny that you mentioned that my my first sales 732 00:33:56,480 - > 00:34:00,319 lesson when I first started learning about sales was if you 733 00:34:00,319 - > 00:34:02,400 don't ask, the answer is always going to be no. 734 00:34:02,960 - > 00:34:06,000 So if you already have the no, you know, I can come and ask. 735 00:34:06,079 - > 00:34:08,559 And then if you give me the no, then it's fine. 736 00:34:08,639 - > 00:34:11,920 But if you give me the yes, then you know that's the best case 737 00:34:11,920 - > 00:34:12,559 scenario. 738 00:34:12,800 - > 00:34:13,599 SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. 739 00:34:13,840 - > 00:34:14,559 Absolutely. 740 00:34:14,800 - > 00:34:18,400 I mean, what's the harm in asking someone who knows you and 741 00:34:18,400 - > 00:34:20,880 loves you, who you've done a great job for? 742 00:34:21,519 - > 00:34:23,679 What's the harm in asking them if they can make an 743 00:34:23,679 - > 00:34:24,159 introduction? 744 00:34:24,239 - > 00:34:28,000 And if they don't know any of the people that you, you know, 745 00:34:28,239 - > 00:34:32,639 ask them about, then say, Can you think of a company where you 746 00:34:32,639 - > 00:34:35,039 do know the right person to introduce me to? 747 00:34:35,280 - > 00:34:38,159 I'd just love to have your help with this. 748 00:34:38,480 - > 00:34:42,559 And most people, especially if you've done a great job, they 749 00:34:42,559 - > 00:34:44,079 want to sing your praises. 750 00:34:44,480 - > 00:34:47,920 But it's not my job to sit around all day thinking about 751 00:34:47,920 - > 00:34:49,519 how to give you a referral. 752 00:34:49,599 - > 00:34:51,920 You need to remind me to do it. 753 00:34:52,239 - > 00:34:54,079 SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, I love that. 754 00:34:54,320 - > 00:34:57,840 Um, one thing I wanted to ask, you you talk a lot about driving 755 00:34:57,840 - > 00:35:02,079 revenue profitably, not just growing at all costs. 756 00:35:02,320 - > 00:35:05,920 What does that mean for like leaders trying to, in a way, 757 00:35:06,079 - > 00:35:07,760 build a sustainable motion today? 758 00:35:07,840 - > 00:35:10,719 I mean, obviously, you're you're in the thick of it too. 759 00:35:10,800 - > 00:35:13,599 So you know there's so much changes happening constantly 760 00:35:13,599 - > 00:35:17,039 with AI and updates and you know, all the time. 761 00:35:17,199 - > 00:35:18,559 What does that really mean nowadays? 762 00:35:18,800 - > 00:35:21,199 What can leaders do to implement that? 763 00:35:22,000 - > 00:35:25,119 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think we overlook profitability 764 00:35:25,119 - > 00:35:27,360 sometimes, especially in the early days, right? 765 00:35:27,519 - > 00:35:33,119 So you have some VE, uh, some PE or VC funding, right? 766 00:35:33,599 - > 00:35:37,840 And your run rate is exceeding what you sell, right? 767 00:35:37,920 - > 00:35:41,039 So that's being fed by that investment. 768 00:35:41,360 - > 00:35:44,079 Okay, that can go on for a little while, especially if 769 00:35:44,079 - > 00:35:46,559 you're developing something and it's very technical. 770 00:35:46,639 - > 00:35:49,360 Yes, of course, that can go on for a little while. 771 00:35:49,519 - > 00:35:54,480 Um, but even then, you can always be socializing your idea 772 00:35:54,480 - > 00:35:56,719 with the right people who can buy from you later. 773 00:35:56,880 - > 00:35:59,519 So you really can always be selling, right? 774 00:35:59,679 - > 00:36:01,519 In that, in that regard. 775 00:36:01,840 - > 00:36:05,199 But um, it's not gonna be, there's not gonna be any profit 776 00:36:05,199 - > 00:36:05,679 at that time. 777 00:36:05,840 - > 00:36:09,679 But once you get to a point where you've got customers and 778 00:36:09,679 - > 00:36:14,079 you're moving along and you're selling things, it does need to 779 00:36:14,079 - > 00:36:15,119 be profitable. 780 00:36:15,360 - > 00:36:18,079 And there's many, many reasons for that. 781 00:36:18,320 - > 00:36:21,599 Um, one, we live in a capitalistic society and we are 782 00:36:21,599 - > 00:36:22,639 supposed to make a profit. 783 00:36:22,719 - > 00:36:24,960 So, like, get on with it, right? 784 00:36:25,360 - > 00:36:29,599 Uh, two, it's very hard on the CEO and the senior team when 785 00:36:29,599 - > 00:36:30,719 there is no profit. 786 00:36:30,880 - > 00:36:34,159 Cash flow becomes really a nightmare because we're just 787 00:36:34,159 - > 00:36:39,920 moving money around and we don't have enough money to bank 788 00:36:39,920 - > 00:36:40,480 ourselves. 789 00:36:40,559 - > 00:36:43,760 So we need credit lines and we need more investment, right? 790 00:36:44,000 - > 00:36:49,840 And so a healthy company, even if they have backing, always has 791 00:36:49,840 - > 00:36:53,199 at least three months of overhead in the bank. 792 00:36:53,440 - > 00:36:56,400 So they can draw from that if they need to. 793 00:36:56,559 - > 00:37:00,719 Six months is better, but three months is great, right? 794 00:37:01,039 - > 00:37:04,239 So then, yes, if you still need your revolving credit line or 795 00:37:04,239 - > 00:37:06,800 you choose to use that instead of your own money, okay, you 796 00:37:06,800 - > 00:37:08,000 have choices now, right? 797 00:37:08,320 - > 00:37:12,159 But so many companies operate with no cash in the bank. 798 00:37:12,239 - > 00:37:13,840 And I just I just don't get it. 799 00:37:13,920 - > 00:37:15,360 I just don't understand it. 800 00:37:15,440 - > 00:37:17,920 Now, sometimes it's better to use other people's money because 801 00:37:17,920 - > 00:37:21,039 the interest rates are low or there's other reasons, but you 802 00:37:21,039 - > 00:37:25,280 should be able to take care of your own company for a number of 803 00:37:25,280 - > 00:37:27,199 months, like during COVID, right? 804 00:37:27,440 - > 00:37:30,000 If you didn't have any savings, you were in trouble. 805 00:37:30,079 - > 00:37:32,800 Now, luckily, the government was helping out a little bit too. 806 00:37:32,960 - > 00:37:36,079 But those of us who had savings, we got through it, right? 807 00:37:36,400 - > 00:37:39,280 Because we had saved up that money so that we could pay our 808 00:37:39,280 - > 00:37:41,440 overhead for a certain number of months. 809 00:37:41,679 - > 00:37:45,360 Um, so I think profitability does a lot of things for you. 810 00:37:45,440 - > 00:37:47,440 It's a peace of mind, right? 811 00:37:47,760 - > 00:37:49,440 Your EBITDA is good. 812 00:37:49,599 - > 00:37:52,719 If you ever want to sell your company, now this is again a 813 00:37:52,719 - > 00:37:55,599 little different when it's VC or PE backed, right? 814 00:37:55,760 - > 00:38:00,559 But even at that, they want their 10x number for you. 815 00:38:00,639 - > 00:38:03,039 And if you're not profitable, who's gonna pay for that? 816 00:38:03,199 - > 00:38:06,239 Now, I gotta think out of the equation all these AI companies 817 00:38:06,239 - > 00:38:09,199 who are not making any money because that's a whole new 818 00:38:09,199 - > 00:38:09,679 world. 819 00:38:10,000 - > 00:38:12,400 But your business is not that. 820 00:38:13,039 - > 00:38:19,440 Your business, right, is not uh, you know, a big AI company who 821 00:38:19,440 - > 00:38:22,480 can just spend and spend, and you know, that's different. 822 00:38:22,639 - > 00:38:24,719 Your company needs to make a profit. 823 00:38:24,960 - > 00:38:28,559 And when you have that profit again, you can invest it back 824 00:38:28,559 - > 00:38:32,400 in, you can save it, you can acquire other companies. 825 00:38:32,639 - > 00:38:36,239 You don't need to go get a bank loan, you don't need to take 826 00:38:36,239 - > 00:38:40,239 equity or you know, of any kind from venture or PE. 827 00:38:40,400 - > 00:38:44,960 You're just in a better, more stable position when you are 828 00:38:44,960 - > 00:38:45,760 profitable. 829 00:38:46,079 - > 00:38:49,360 So, you know, when you're profitable, you can do whatever 830 00:38:49,360 - > 00:38:50,400 you want with your profits. 831 00:38:50,480 - > 00:38:51,519 Isn't that amazing? 832 00:38:51,760 - > 00:38:55,119 So I think it's important, but I think we do a lot of deals, 833 00:38:55,360 - > 00:38:58,400 unfortunately, that are not profitable and we allow our 834 00:38:58,400 - > 00:39:00,880 salespeople to do them, and we really should not. 835 00:39:01,039 - > 00:39:05,119 In fact, I was talking to a company earlier today about they 836 00:39:05,119 - > 00:39:08,400 have a few partners who get a huge percent of their deal. 837 00:39:08,480 - > 00:39:12,079 And these these agreements were made many, many years ago when 838 00:39:12,079 - > 00:39:13,840 things were completely different. 839 00:39:14,159 - > 00:39:18,320 But those legacy contracts with those partners are killing them 840 00:39:18,320 - > 00:39:22,880 now because they haven't raised their prices enough, right? 841 00:39:23,679 - > 00:39:28,480 And the fees were too high to begin with, and now it's 842 00:39:28,480 - > 00:39:32,000 actually costing them money to do business with those partners, 843 00:39:32,079 - > 00:39:33,119 but they're still doing it. 844 00:39:33,199 - > 00:39:35,440 That's not profitable, not good. 845 00:39:35,599 - > 00:39:38,960 You have to renegotiate with those partners, and if they 846 00:39:38,960 - > 00:39:41,599 don't like it, then they don't have to be your partner anymore. 847 00:39:41,840 - > 00:39:42,159 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 848 00:39:42,320 - > 00:39:44,559 Well, it's not like you're making money off of that either 849 00:39:44,559 - > 00:39:45,119 way, right? 850 00:39:45,199 - > 00:39:49,519 So and might I add to that, like when you're profitable, you I 851 00:39:49,519 - > 00:39:51,920 feel like, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, because 852 00:39:51,920 - > 00:39:54,880 obviously you've been around more found founders for a longer 853 00:39:54,880 - > 00:39:55,920 period of time. 854 00:39:56,320 - > 00:39:59,760 You also can make better decisions because when you're 855 00:39:59,760 - > 00:40:03,119 not profitable, you're constantly under pressure to 856 00:40:03,199 - > 00:40:06,639 like make decisions to try and be profitable, and you probably 857 00:40:06,639 - > 00:40:09,440 make the wrong decisions while being in that pressure or in 858 00:40:09,440 - > 00:40:10,320 that position. 859 00:40:10,960 - > 00:40:12,000 SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent. 860 00:40:12,079 - > 00:40:15,199 And here's the reason this is how our brain works, right? 861 00:40:15,599 - > 00:40:20,079 There's studies that show, you know, when we're optimistic, we 862 00:40:20,079 - > 00:40:21,599 make like better decisions. 863 00:40:21,679 - > 00:40:23,840 It's like 30% better or something like that. 864 00:40:23,920 - > 00:40:27,280 I forgot what the status, but when we're optimistic, we can't 865 00:40:27,280 - > 00:40:30,159 be optimistic when there's no profit and we need to borrow 866 00:40:30,159 - > 00:40:32,800 money and our credit line is stretched or any of those 867 00:40:32,800 - > 00:40:33,599 things, right? 868 00:40:33,840 - > 00:40:40,079 So we need to keep our mindset in a place where we can make 869 00:40:40,400 - > 00:40:41,360 good decisions. 870 00:40:41,599 - > 00:40:47,519 And when we're, you know, depressed or stressed, worried, 871 00:40:48,000 - > 00:40:50,159 you know, there it's too much. 872 00:40:50,239 - > 00:40:55,440 We we just don't make good decisions, and so it's really 873 00:40:55,440 - > 00:40:58,320 true, and it is your brain chemistry at work. 874 00:40:58,559 - > 00:41:01,679 You need to make your brain chemistry work for you. 875 00:41:01,920 - > 00:41:05,599 So you need to get yourself in the right mindset, in the right 876 00:41:05,599 - > 00:41:08,480 frame of mind, and more optimistic before you make 877 00:41:08,480 - > 00:41:10,800 decisions because you're right, it could really impact your 878 00:41:10,800 - > 00:41:12,400 business in a negative way. 879 00:41:12,719 - > 00:41:13,840 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely. 880 00:41:14,079 - > 00:41:17,360 Um, I wanted to ask, on the other hand, when we're building 881 00:41:17,360 - > 00:41:21,280 teams, right, especially sales teams, is there, and I know 882 00:41:21,280 - > 00:41:24,079 there's probably thousands of scenarios because each founder, 883 00:41:24,159 - > 00:41:26,480 each company is different, each product is different. 884 00:41:26,719 - > 00:41:30,000 Is there like some sort of architecture on your end when 885 00:41:30,000 - > 00:41:30,800 you're looking at them? 886 00:41:30,880 - > 00:41:34,480 Like, how do you prioritize hiring first, who to hire first, 887 00:41:34,559 - > 00:41:37,599 or is there some sort of framework that you can help 888 00:41:37,599 - > 00:41:40,960 guide leaders into who to hire first and why? 889 00:41:41,440 - > 00:41:41,840 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 890 00:41:42,079 - > 00:41:47,280 So usually I prevent them from hiring for a bit once I'm there 891 00:41:47,440 - > 00:41:49,599 because I want to see what we have, right? 892 00:41:49,840 - > 00:41:50,079 Right. 893 00:41:50,239 - > 00:41:54,880 So the problem is maybe we're plugging a hole that doesn't 894 00:41:54,880 - > 00:41:56,079 need to be plugged. 895 00:41:56,239 - > 00:41:56,400 Yeah. 896 00:41:56,559 - > 00:41:58,960 And so here's an example with sales. 897 00:41:59,440 - > 00:42:03,519 You have three salespeople and they're not hitting the number. 898 00:42:03,760 - > 00:42:08,480 So you think if I hire another salesperson, that will help the 899 00:42:08,480 - > 00:42:09,440 total number. 900 00:42:09,760 - > 00:42:11,760 It actually doesn't, right? 901 00:42:12,239 - > 00:42:16,000 And so what I before we hire salespeople, I want every 902 00:42:16,000 - > 00:42:21,599 salesperson who's working to be at capacity or very close to 903 00:42:21,599 - > 00:42:22,559 capacity, right? 904 00:42:22,719 - > 00:42:26,400 So you might want to hire a little head of capacity, but if 905 00:42:26,559 - > 00:42:31,599 they're not working at capacity, then you're, you know, you're 906 00:42:31,599 - > 00:42:33,519 losing money, you're losing profit, you're losing 907 00:42:33,519 - > 00:42:34,320 everything, right? 908 00:42:34,639 - > 00:42:39,679 And to add another salesperson to that is just adding cost, and 909 00:42:39,679 - > 00:42:42,000 it's not adding deals. 910 00:42:42,719 - > 00:42:46,719 So we really have to think before we hire salespeople and 911 00:42:46,719 - > 00:42:49,760 even sales leaders, because we have to think what is the 912 00:42:49,760 - > 00:42:53,360 capacity of those we have and is it full? 913 00:42:53,519 - > 00:42:55,360 So here's an example. 914 00:42:55,599 - > 00:43:01,440 Uh, we had uh I had a client who had some really tremendous 915 00:43:01,440 - > 00:43:05,679 inbound lead flow for years, and they had two salespeople who 916 00:43:05,679 - > 00:43:07,679 couldn't even keep up with all the inbound. 917 00:43:07,920 - > 00:43:11,599 Great, let's hire another salesperson and get them trained 918 00:43:11,599 - > 00:43:13,760 so we can manage all that inbound. 919 00:43:14,000 - > 00:43:17,360 Now, the inbound slowed to a crawl. 920 00:43:17,599 - > 00:43:18,960 No more inbound. 921 00:43:19,199 - > 00:43:22,400 Now these salespeople are no longer at capacity. 922 00:43:23,440 - > 00:43:24,800 Now what happens? 923 00:43:25,039 - > 00:43:27,280 Well, you want to think like you did before. 924 00:43:27,440 - > 00:43:29,760 Well, if we hire another salesperson, our sales will go 925 00:43:29,760 - > 00:43:32,079 up because that's what happened last time when we hired another 926 00:43:32,079 - > 00:43:32,559 salesperson. 927 00:43:32,960 - > 00:43:35,119 No, because there's no more lead flow. 928 00:43:35,280 - > 00:43:38,000 So you're gonna put that salesperson in a seat and 929 00:43:38,000 - > 00:43:39,280 they're gonna do what? 930 00:43:39,840 - > 00:43:42,320 Now you could say, well, they're gonna do an outbound motion. 931 00:43:42,480 - > 00:43:45,039 Okay, well, an inbound motion and an outbound motion are 932 00:43:45,039 - > 00:43:46,159 completely different. 933 00:43:46,719 - > 00:43:50,400 And if you hired them to do inbound, training them to do 934 00:43:50,400 - > 00:43:51,760 outbound takes time. 935 00:43:51,840 - > 00:43:54,239 And some of them won't even want to do it. 936 00:43:54,639 - > 00:43:54,880 Right. 937 00:43:55,199 - > 00:43:56,960 And they're like, where are my leads? 938 00:43:57,360 - > 00:43:59,599 You know, you used to feed me leads, now I got nothing. 939 00:44:00,000 - > 00:44:02,079 And you want me to do a lot of things, right? 940 00:44:02,559 - > 00:44:08,719 So we have to be careful on you know thinking about why we're 941 00:44:08,719 - > 00:44:11,280 hiring that person, what do we think is going to actually 942 00:44:11,280 - > 00:44:11,519 happen? 943 00:44:11,760 - > 00:44:13,599 What are we looking for? 944 00:44:13,760 - > 00:44:17,679 I'd rather hire a marketing person to increase the inbound 945 00:44:17,679 - > 00:44:21,199 leads and get those two people back up to capacity or those 946 00:44:21,199 - > 00:44:24,960 three people back up to capacity and then see if we need another 947 00:44:24,960 - > 00:44:25,599 salesperson. 948 00:44:26,400 - > 00:44:32,079 Uh, or sometimes if there is plenty of, you know, plenty of 949 00:44:32,079 - > 00:44:36,880 leads and the market is really good, yes, then it makes sense. 950 00:44:37,039 - > 00:44:40,239 We have, but then then your two or three salespeople would be to 951 00:44:40,239 - > 00:44:43,119 capacity and it would make sense to hire another one. 952 00:44:43,280 - > 00:44:47,360 Um, but also I think sometimes we hire them to do the wrong 953 00:44:47,360 - > 00:44:47,679 things. 954 00:44:47,920 - > 00:44:53,519 Like the world has changed so much, and you know, some things 955 00:44:53,519 - > 00:44:56,000 are still the same, but some things are very different. 956 00:44:56,159 - > 00:45:00,400 The way buyers buy is very different, but the way humans 957 00:45:00,400 - > 00:45:02,000 make decisions has not changed. 958 00:45:02,960 - > 00:45:06,639 It's the same psychological process to make a decision as it 959 00:45:06,639 - > 00:45:07,440 has always been. 960 00:45:07,599 - > 00:45:11,039 That has not changed, but the way they gather information, the 961 00:45:11,039 - > 00:45:14,800 way they act, the way they interact, all of those things 962 00:45:14,800 - > 00:45:15,840 have changed, right? 963 00:45:16,079 - > 00:45:20,239 So now you're hiring a salesperson because let's say 964 00:45:20,239 - > 00:45:22,960 your other people are a capacity, but you hired the 965 00:45:22,960 - > 00:45:24,159 wrong kind of salesperson. 966 00:45:24,639 - > 00:45:30,239 Today we have to think how does the buyer want to be sold to? 967 00:45:30,480 - > 00:45:35,760 What kind of seller do we need to hire that will have the 968 00:45:36,079 - > 00:45:40,400 appeal to that to that buyer or that set of buyers? 969 00:45:40,559 - > 00:45:43,599 What kind of person do they want to talk to? 970 00:45:43,840 - > 00:45:48,800 You know, and how can that person help guide them through 971 00:45:48,800 - > 00:45:53,280 their decision-making process and instill confidence in them 972 00:45:53,280 - > 00:45:56,880 so that they can make a good decision, right? 973 00:45:57,199 - > 00:46:00,159 Because right now, you know, all the buyer side research is 974 00:46:00,159 - > 00:46:05,599 telling us that these deals that end in no decision are not about 975 00:46:05,599 - > 00:46:08,320 the seller and their team necessarily. 976 00:46:08,480 - > 00:46:13,280 It's about the buyer team not having enough confidence in 977 00:46:13,280 - > 00:46:14,079 themselves. 978 00:46:14,239 - > 00:46:16,800 Like they've looked at everything and they still can't 979 00:46:16,800 - > 00:46:19,599 figure out how or why or should we spend this money? 980 00:46:19,679 - > 00:46:22,480 And then they just go, you know what, let's just not do it. 981 00:46:22,719 - > 00:46:25,280 And they don't have confidence in themselves. 982 00:46:25,440 - > 00:46:28,800 They didn't gather the right information, they didn't 983 00:46:28,800 - > 00:46:30,960 understand their problem thoroughly enough. 984 00:46:31,119 - > 00:46:33,280 And so they just end up making no decision. 985 00:46:33,519 - > 00:46:38,079 So a good seller today has to dive in and understand that 986 00:46:38,079 - > 00:46:39,119 problem so thoroughly. 987 00:46:39,199 - > 00:46:41,679 So they need to know the industry and that company and 988 00:46:41,679 - > 00:46:45,360 those people, and they need to ask hard and different questions 989 00:46:45,360 - > 00:46:48,800 about the problem because people say, Oh, we want to buy a CRM. 990 00:46:49,119 - > 00:46:52,079 Okay, we sell CRM, we'll sell you a CRM. 991 00:46:52,559 - > 00:46:55,280 No, no, and no, right? 992 00:46:55,519 - > 00:46:57,440 It's like, oh, well, why now? 993 00:46:57,599 - > 00:47:00,320 I mean, CRM has been around a long, a long time. 994 00:47:00,480 - > 00:47:02,480 Why are you now buying a CRM? 995 00:47:02,719 - > 00:47:04,639 Oh, you know, these things happen. 996 00:47:04,880 - > 00:47:06,000 Oh, well, that's interesting. 997 00:47:06,239 - > 00:47:10,079 So, you know, with AI, the way it works today, you know, do you 998 00:47:10,079 - > 00:47:13,199 really need a CRM or do you what are you solving for? 999 00:47:13,280 - > 00:47:14,000 What's the problem? 1000 00:47:14,159 - > 00:47:15,599 Well, we don't have the data we need. 1001 00:47:15,760 - > 00:47:17,599 Oh, you don't have the data you need. 1002 00:47:17,760 - > 00:47:20,079 That doesn't point me towards a CRM. 1003 00:47:20,320 - > 00:47:22,800 Like that might be a whole nother discussion. 1004 00:47:23,039 - > 00:47:27,840 But the problem is I get paid to sell CRM and they said they 1005 00:47:27,840 - > 00:47:31,599 wanted a CRM, so I'm gonna sell them a CRM. 1006 00:47:31,840 - > 00:47:33,679 Yeah, yeah, not good, right? 1007 00:47:33,840 - > 00:47:38,000 So we we have to be smarter as salespeople, and we have to hire 1008 00:47:38,000 - > 00:47:41,840 salespeople who care about humans and who want to help them 1009 00:47:41,840 - > 00:47:44,320 make the right decision, and that doesn't include us 1010 00:47:44,400 - > 00:47:47,440 sometimes, but you gotta learn how to do that fast enough, 1011 00:47:47,599 - > 00:47:47,920 right? 1012 00:47:48,079 - > 00:47:51,360 Yeah, you're not wasting time as a seller and you're not wasting 1013 00:47:51,360 - > 00:47:53,519 the buyer's time, but you're pointing them in the right 1014 00:47:53,519 - > 00:47:55,599 direction and moving on to the next. 1015 00:47:56,000 - > 00:47:57,679 SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is so good, Alice. 1016 00:47:57,760 - > 00:48:01,360 So just to recap quickly, first, I felt like you said, okay, 1017 00:48:01,440 - > 00:48:04,000 let's diagnose what's happening with our sales right now. 1018 00:48:04,159 - > 00:48:06,400 Then what kind of sales motion do we have? 1019 00:48:06,559 - > 00:48:08,400 Inbound versus outbound. 1020 00:48:08,719 - > 00:48:11,840 And then we can see how what kind of problem we're trying to 1021 00:48:11,840 - > 00:48:14,960 solve for, you know, and then it's fine because I feel like 1022 00:48:14,960 - > 00:48:17,519 90% of the time companies will always blame sales. 1023 00:48:17,679 - > 00:48:19,679 And then they're not looking at something like you said, you 1024 00:48:19,679 - > 00:48:22,000 know, maybe we need a marketing person to bring more inbound 1025 00:48:22,000 - > 00:48:23,760 leads, which is completely different. 1026 00:48:23,920 - > 00:48:26,800 And then from there, you're saying, okay, how have times 1027 00:48:26,800 - > 00:48:27,199 changed? 1028 00:48:27,360 - > 00:48:31,119 Are we in the same buying or are buyers buying the same way? 1029 00:48:31,599 - > 00:48:34,960 Or do they have a different, you know, buying framework or buying 1030 00:48:34,960 - > 00:48:36,400 process overall? 1031 00:48:36,559 - > 00:48:39,599 And there's a lot of like buyers' fatigue, I will say, 1032 00:48:39,760 - > 00:48:42,800 because if I'm looking for a CRM, like you mentioned, there's 1033 00:48:42,800 - > 00:48:44,000 thousands of options. 1034 00:48:44,159 - > 00:48:46,719 Like, how do you start to even look for? 1035 00:48:46,880 - > 00:48:47,519 And I agree. 1036 00:48:47,599 - > 00:48:49,920 I mean, there's been times actually, and just a couple of 1037 00:48:49,920 - > 00:48:53,679 months ago, I was looking into switching CRMs and there was 1038 00:48:53,679 - > 00:48:54,800 just too many options. 1039 00:48:54,880 - > 00:48:55,920 And I said, you know what? 1040 00:48:56,000 - > 00:48:57,360 I'm not even gonna do it right now. 1041 00:48:57,440 - > 00:48:58,480 I'm just gonna stay put. 1042 00:48:58,639 - > 00:48:58,880 Yeah. 1043 00:48:59,039 - > 00:49:02,239 So I I see that perspective as well on the buyer side. 1044 00:49:02,320 - > 00:49:05,920 So um, did I miss anything on my kind of four points there? 1045 00:49:06,159 - > 00:49:09,440 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think I think that's really it's there's 1046 00:49:09,440 - > 00:49:10,559 a lot going on. 1047 00:49:10,960 - > 00:49:11,440 Right, right. 1048 00:49:11,760 - > 00:49:14,800 And we're still hiring sellers the same way we always hired 1049 00:49:14,800 - > 00:49:15,039 them. 1050 00:49:15,280 - > 00:49:18,639 We're hiring the same type of seller that we've always hired, 1051 00:49:18,800 - > 00:49:20,880 and now we bring them in and wonder why they're not 1052 00:49:20,880 - > 00:49:21,519 successful. 1053 00:49:21,760 - > 00:49:24,159 The world has changed, we need to change with it. 1054 00:49:24,320 - > 00:49:25,199 We just can't. 1055 00:49:25,440 - > 00:49:28,000 Our hiring process needs to be revamped, right? 1056 00:49:28,079 - > 00:49:29,440 Again, it's back to process. 1057 00:49:29,599 - > 00:49:31,679 Like, what is your current hiring process? 1058 00:49:31,840 - > 00:49:33,360 Is that serving you well? 1059 00:49:33,599 - > 00:49:35,840 Look at the last however many hires you made. 1060 00:49:36,000 - > 00:49:38,239 I can't tell you how many companies I've been hearing, 1061 00:49:38,400 - > 00:49:40,960 like, oh, yeah, we hired that person, they stayed about a 1062 00:49:40,960 - > 00:49:41,760 year, they're gone. 1063 00:49:42,000 - > 00:49:44,559 Okay, a year, what happened? 1064 00:49:45,039 - > 00:49:48,159 Like, I know people change jobs, that's fine. 1065 00:49:48,400 - > 00:49:52,320 Two to five years is gonna be more normal, you know. 1066 00:49:52,480 - > 00:49:54,159 Maybe three, okay, let's split it. 1067 00:49:54,239 - > 00:49:58,880 Let's like three years, but a year, no, no one wants to have 1068 00:49:58,880 - > 00:50:01,440 to change jobs again after a year. 1069 00:50:01,599 - > 00:50:03,440 That's not fun for anyone. 1070 00:50:03,679 - > 00:50:05,440 Think about it, really, right? 1071 00:50:05,679 - > 00:50:10,000 And so if that's happening, then what does that say about our 1072 00:50:10,000 - > 00:50:13,599 hiring process, our onboarding process, our training? 1073 00:50:14,159 - > 00:50:16,480 You know, are we choosing the right people? 1074 00:50:16,639 - > 00:50:18,079 Are we training them properly? 1075 00:50:18,239 - > 00:50:21,920 So we really need to re-look at these hiring processes. 1076 00:50:22,159 - > 00:50:24,480 SPEAKER_02: And might I add to that that if you have an 1077 00:50:24,480 - > 00:50:27,760 enterprise sales motion and somebody leaves within a year, 1078 00:50:28,000 - > 00:50:32,559 you probably just wasted so much money, so much ramp up time. 1079 00:50:32,960 - > 00:50:35,599 SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about your customers, they just got 1080 00:50:35,599 - > 00:50:38,400 loose of this new person and now they're gone. 1081 00:50:38,639 - > 00:50:40,400 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so crazy. 1082 00:50:40,639 - > 00:50:43,920 Speaking of that, real quick, what's your opinion on like 1083 00:50:44,159 - > 00:50:46,400 salespeople and like their short year stint? 1084 00:50:46,639 - > 00:50:49,679 Because I feel like they get a lot of lack of a better word, 1085 00:50:49,760 - > 00:50:51,199 you know, shit on them. 1086 00:50:51,440 - > 00:50:54,400 And it's like, okay, but we have to look at the whole picture, 1087 00:50:54,480 - > 00:50:54,639 right? 1088 00:50:54,719 - > 00:50:57,679 If that's been their entire career of like one year, one 1089 00:50:57,679 - > 00:51:01,760 year, then okay, maybe that is a person problem, but how how do 1090 00:51:01,760 - > 00:51:02,639 you evaluate that? 1091 00:51:02,800 - > 00:51:04,159 What's your opinion on that? 1092 00:51:04,559 - > 00:51:07,119 SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I think the world has changed. 1093 00:51:07,280 - > 00:51:09,760 When I was younger, you would never have hired somebody who 1094 00:51:09,760 - > 00:51:10,960 changed jobs every year. 1095 00:51:11,039 - > 00:51:13,119 Yeah, wouldn't even consider them, right? 1096 00:51:13,440 - > 00:51:15,440 Doesn't matter what the track record is. 1097 00:51:15,679 - > 00:51:19,840 But I do think that recruiters are out there heavily recruiting 1098 00:51:19,840 - > 00:51:21,199 the best salespeople. 1099 00:51:21,519 - > 00:51:23,360 And this happened to my brother. 1100 00:51:23,599 - > 00:51:27,519 He he would get a new job and do really well and excel, and that 1101 00:51:27,519 - > 00:51:29,440 he the recruiters would start. 1102 00:51:29,519 - > 00:51:32,559 He'd not even be six months in the seat, and the recruiters 1103 00:51:32,559 - > 00:51:32,960 would start. 1104 00:51:33,039 - > 00:51:37,280 Well, then these companies are dangling, you know, these lovely 1105 00:51:37,280 - > 00:51:38,400 packages in front of him. 1106 00:51:38,639 - > 00:51:42,639 And he's like, I can make more money, yeah. 1107 00:51:43,199 - > 00:51:47,440 And some people are really driven by money, some people are 1108 00:51:47,440 - > 00:51:48,400 not, right? 1109 00:51:48,559 - > 00:51:52,320 But so he was like looking at these jobs and thinking, wow, 1110 00:51:52,480 - > 00:51:55,599 okay, sure, if you're gonna pay me that much, I'll move right 1111 00:51:56,320 - > 00:51:56,639 now. 1112 00:51:56,960 - > 00:52:01,440 As he, you know, became more mature, he would see the fallacy 1113 00:52:01,599 - > 00:52:02,559 in that, right? 1114 00:52:02,800 - > 00:52:05,840 Because you can usually make more money where you are, just 1115 00:52:05,840 - > 00:52:09,360 go sell more, unless you're capped in some way or whatever, 1116 00:52:09,440 - > 00:52:11,440 which is you know not typical. 1117 00:52:11,920 - > 00:52:17,039 So I think I don't really want to hire salespeople who have had 1118 00:52:17,280 - > 00:52:19,599 especially three in a row, one year stints. 1119 00:52:19,760 - > 00:52:21,119 I'm not interested in them. 1120 00:52:21,280 - > 00:52:25,519 Yeah, but what I do is, and again, this takes time that 1121 00:52:25,519 - > 00:52:27,039 nobody wants to spend. 1122 00:52:27,280 - > 00:52:30,719 I go through every job on their resume and I ask them, how did 1123 00:52:30,719 - > 00:52:32,480 you find this position? 1124 00:52:32,880 - > 00:52:35,039 Why were you interested in it? 1125 00:52:35,280 - > 00:52:35,599 SPEAKER_01: Right. 1126 00:52:35,760 - > 00:52:38,960 SPEAKER_00: Why did you leave your other position for this new 1127 00:52:38,960 - > 00:52:39,440 position? 1128 00:52:39,599 - > 00:52:42,159 And then I asked them, okay, and you worked there for a year, how 1129 00:52:42,159 - > 00:52:44,320 did you leave it better than you found it? 1130 00:52:44,559 - > 00:52:47,920 And then what drove you to the next position? 1131 00:52:48,079 - > 00:52:49,599 Why, why were you looking? 1132 00:52:49,760 - > 00:52:50,800 Oh, I wasn't looking. 1133 00:52:50,880 - > 00:52:51,920 They were recruiting me. 1134 00:52:52,079 - > 00:52:54,800 Okay, that tells me something. 1135 00:52:55,039 - > 00:52:59,440 Or, oh, I was looking because the boss or the this or they 1136 00:52:59,440 - > 00:53:03,280 changed my commission, or if it's if they're telling me it's 1137 00:53:03,280 - > 00:53:07,440 somebody else's fault every single thing, then I'm like, oh, 1138 00:53:07,599 - > 00:53:09,039 definitely don't want this person, right? 1139 00:53:09,199 - > 00:53:10,960 But if they're telling me, well, you know what? 1140 00:53:11,119 - > 00:53:14,800 I really didn't feel I could do my best work here because I 1141 00:53:15,119 - > 00:53:19,039 wasn't prepared for what this environment was, and I didn't 1142 00:53:19,039 - > 00:53:22,639 know how to help myself, but and I didn't have a leader that was 1143 00:53:22,639 - > 00:53:23,039 helping me. 1144 00:53:23,119 - > 00:53:26,239 So I knew I needed to look to go somewhere where they I could 1145 00:53:26,239 - > 00:53:28,000 have help developing myself. 1146 00:53:28,239 - > 00:53:29,519 Oh, very smart. 1147 00:53:29,679 - > 00:53:31,360 Okay, I like that answer, right? 1148 00:53:31,519 - > 00:53:36,159 So I go through every job with them and ask them why they took 1149 00:53:36,159 - > 00:53:38,639 that job, what they thought was better about it than where they 1150 00:53:38,639 - > 00:53:40,400 were formerly working, why they left. 1151 00:53:40,480 - > 00:53:45,039 I and I listen to hear whether they're taking responsibility 1152 00:53:45,039 - > 00:53:49,519 for anything that happened, you know, and what their reasoning 1153 00:53:49,519 - > 00:53:49,840 was. 1154 00:53:50,400 - > 00:53:55,280 And then I say to them, okay, so you say you want to find a home 1155 00:53:55,280 - > 00:53:58,480 where you can stay and work, you know, maybe three to five years 1156 00:53:58,480 - > 00:54:00,400 at this place, which is reasonable. 1157 00:54:00,719 - > 00:54:05,119 What are the factors you're gonna use to make your decision? 1158 00:54:06,559 - > 00:54:10,880 Because if they can't tell me something clear and clean that 1159 00:54:10,880 - > 00:54:13,039 makes sense, I don't want to hire them. 1160 00:54:13,199 - > 00:54:15,599 You know, if they're just looking for their next thing, if 1161 00:54:15,599 - > 00:54:20,000 they're just looking for more money, because usually when they 1162 00:54:20,000 - > 00:54:23,039 move, even though the package looks good, they don't make more 1163 00:54:23,039 - > 00:54:26,880 money at first because it's their base, plus maybe a little 1164 00:54:26,880 - > 00:54:31,599 bit of a you know, um a guarantee for a couple of 1165 00:54:31,599 - > 00:54:33,599 months, but then they got to go sell something. 1166 00:54:33,760 - > 00:54:35,920 So it's I don't know. 1167 00:54:36,000 - > 00:54:37,760 I mean, it's it's really hard. 1168 00:54:38,000 - > 00:54:41,280 It is really hard to hire salespeople because they are 1169 00:54:41,280 - > 00:54:45,360 selling you while you know, while you're interviewing and 1170 00:54:45,360 - > 00:54:47,360 you have to do it, right? 1171 00:54:47,519 - > 00:54:52,719 And learn kind of what's going on in their head, and it is not 1172 00:54:52,719 - > 00:54:56,320 easy to do, and most hiring managers are terrible at it. 1173 00:54:56,639 - > 00:54:58,000 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I agree. 1174 00:54:58,079 - > 00:55:01,360 I think one question that I like to ask as well on that end is um 1175 00:55:01,679 - > 00:55:04,400 similar to yours, is you know, what are the top three things 1176 00:55:04,400 - > 00:55:06,719 that are important for you in your next move? 1177 00:55:06,960 - > 00:55:10,159 And you can evaluate that based on their answer, right? 1178 00:55:10,320 - > 00:55:13,360 Because it usually they'll say, Well, money, duh, okay, that's 1179 00:55:13,360 - > 00:55:14,800 your salesperson, I get it. 1180 00:55:15,039 - > 00:55:17,440 Then it goes into, you know, a little bit more in depth of 1181 00:55:17,440 - > 00:55:20,880 like, oh, leadership or having an inbound motion or this or 1182 00:55:20,880 - > 00:55:21,039 that. 1183 00:55:21,119 - > 00:55:23,360 And you start understanding a little bit more, kind of like 1184 00:55:23,360 - > 00:55:26,559 peeling back the layers of a salesperson to really understand 1185 00:55:26,559 - > 00:55:29,360 what's their motivation for moving or wanting something 1186 00:55:29,360 - > 00:55:29,599 else. 1187 00:55:29,760 - > 00:55:31,840 So that's that's really good. 1188 00:55:32,000 - > 00:55:35,679 Um, I wanted to uh switch to our next session, which or section, 1189 00:55:35,760 - > 00:55:37,440 which I call the rapid fire. 1190 00:55:37,679 - > 00:55:39,440 And it's kind of interesting, I guess, for you. 1191 00:55:39,599 - > 00:55:42,719 You can um I'll let you decide if you want to answer it from 1192 00:55:42,719 - > 00:55:46,400 your own perspective or on the companies that you hire or you 1193 00:55:46,400 - > 00:55:47,840 work with perspective. 1194 00:55:48,079 - > 00:55:51,599 But um, what is one tool that you or the companies that you're 1195 00:55:51,840 - > 00:55:54,719 working with can live without right now in 2026? 1196 00:55:55,599 - > 00:56:00,000 SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, I'm like, I feel like we're all tooled to 1197 00:56:00,000 - > 00:56:00,639 death. 1198 00:56:01,199 - > 00:56:02,320 Too many tools. 1199 00:56:02,480 - > 00:56:04,000 I so what can we? 1200 00:56:05,039 - > 00:56:07,199 I mean, look, what does a salesperson need? 1201 00:56:07,360 - > 00:56:10,639 They need a phone or a video communication, right? 1202 00:56:10,880 - > 00:56:14,320 Some sort of way to talk, have a conversation with people. 1203 00:56:14,559 - > 00:56:17,840 They need a database, someplace to keep the information so they 1204 00:56:17,840 - > 00:56:21,119 don't forget and it reminds them to do the next thing, right? 1205 00:56:21,440 - > 00:56:24,960 I mean, and they need a and they need a place to organize their 1206 00:56:24,960 - > 00:56:27,280 deals so they can see how the deal flow is. 1207 00:56:27,440 - > 00:56:29,920 So, like, what else do you need? 1208 00:56:30,159 - > 00:56:34,239 Oh my gosh, but we have so, so, so many things, right? 1209 00:56:34,400 - > 00:56:35,760 We need email, yes. 1210 00:56:35,920 - > 00:56:39,519 We need communication tools, so we need some sort of email, some 1211 00:56:39,519 - > 00:56:43,840 sort of device to have the conversation, a place to keep 1212 00:56:43,840 - > 00:56:47,599 our information organized and a way to watch our deals flow, 1213 00:56:47,679 - > 00:56:47,920 right? 1214 00:56:48,000 - > 00:56:49,440 To to track our deals. 1215 00:56:50,079 - > 00:56:53,119 Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you, but I think AI is 1216 00:56:53,119 - > 00:56:55,360 wonderful, but I think it's being misused. 1217 00:56:55,679 - > 00:56:57,760 Um, I call it random acts of AI. 1218 00:56:57,920 - > 00:57:00,480 Like everybody's just doing random acts of AI, they're using 1219 00:57:00,480 - > 00:57:03,920 it to write, and they're doing a terrible job, and it's not 1220 00:57:03,920 - > 00:57:06,960 helping us get conversations with people who can buy. 1221 00:57:07,199 - > 00:57:11,360 So, I mean, a tool, I I don't even know that's a good answer. 1222 00:57:12,000 - > 00:57:12,800 SPEAKER_02: Communication tool. 1223 00:57:13,119 - > 00:57:13,920 Yeah, you're there. 1224 00:57:14,079 - > 00:57:17,360 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, tools that allow make it easy for you to 1225 00:57:17,360 - > 00:57:17,920 communicate. 1226 00:57:18,079 - > 00:57:19,360 Those are the tools you need. 1227 00:57:19,599 - > 00:57:22,639 SPEAKER_02: Love that, and I agree with AI, everything is so 1228 00:57:22,960 - > 00:57:27,039 AI-based right now that it's not even letting people think, like 1229 00:57:27,199 - > 00:57:29,039 use their brain cells to think. 1230 00:57:29,920 - > 00:57:31,199 So love that. 1231 00:57:31,280 - > 00:57:35,360 Um, what is your biggest growth lever for SaaS in 2026? 1232 00:57:36,320 - > 00:57:40,719 Biggest growth lever, or something that you've helped 1233 00:57:40,719 - > 00:57:41,039 implement. 1234 00:57:41,360 - > 00:57:45,519 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I feel like we have to start listening 1235 00:57:45,519 - > 00:57:48,000 and understanding what the humans need, right? 1236 00:57:48,639 - > 00:57:52,239 You want to sell 5,000 seats, but is that really what we 1237 00:57:52,239 - > 00:57:53,519 should do for this company? 1238 00:57:53,679 - > 00:57:56,239 Like, I think the the biggest lever is care. 1239 00:57:56,719 - > 00:58:00,880 Just care about the humans you're selling to, what you're 1240 00:58:00,880 - > 00:58:04,239 selling to them, and will this actually advance their goal? 1241 00:58:04,480 - > 00:58:08,400 If you care about that, you will do better in this market. 1242 00:58:08,800 - > 00:58:09,599 SPEAKER_02: Really good. 1243 00:58:09,840 - > 00:58:13,039 What is one belief that you have that maybe most people will 1244 00:58:13,039 - > 00:58:14,159 disagree with? 1245 00:58:15,599 - > 00:58:18,480 SPEAKER_00: I think quotas should go away forever. 1246 00:58:18,800 - > 00:58:19,440 SPEAKER_02: Really? 1247 00:58:20,000 - > 00:58:23,360 You have to elaborate a little bit because I think all of our 1248 00:58:23,360 - > 00:58:25,280 salespeople are freaking out right now. 1249 00:58:25,519 - > 00:58:27,920 SPEAKER_00: Well, I think salespeople hate quotas, and 1250 00:58:27,920 - > 00:58:31,519 customers certainly hate quotas too, because I always tell 1251 00:58:31,519 - > 00:58:34,960 salespeople you're trying to force something because your 1252 00:58:34,960 - > 00:58:37,760 quota is you know, is this for this quarter? 1253 00:58:38,320 - > 00:58:42,320 Closed dates come from customers, not quotas. 1254 00:58:42,639 - > 00:58:43,679 Yeah, that's good. 1255 00:58:43,920 - > 00:58:47,760 You cannot force it, you have to do what's best for your customer 1256 00:58:47,920 - > 00:58:48,480 always. 1257 00:58:48,719 - > 00:58:54,960 And when we, you know, impart artificial quotas that were not 1258 00:58:54,960 - > 00:58:59,360 well thought out or based on the market or based on what our 1259 00:58:59,360 - > 00:59:03,440 customers are actually buying, then all we've done is put 1260 00:59:03,440 - > 00:59:07,679 pressure on humans to do very bad behaviors, right? 1261 00:59:07,840 - > 00:59:11,519 What happens when it's close to the end of the month and we're 1262 00:59:11,519 - > 00:59:12,719 not hitting our quota? 1263 00:59:13,119 - > 00:59:17,920 The CEO yells, discount, call them back and tell them you'll 1264 00:59:18,079 - > 00:59:19,599 do it for less, right? 1265 00:59:19,760 - > 00:59:22,719 Like wrong answer, right? 1266 00:59:23,119 - > 00:59:25,440 So, like we have very bad behavior. 1267 00:59:25,599 - > 00:59:28,559 Salespeople start putting pressure on their customers, 1268 00:59:28,719 - > 00:59:32,159 they their brains stop working and they stop asking good 1269 00:59:32,159 - > 00:59:32,480 questions. 1270 00:59:32,559 - > 00:59:35,360 So they don't actually know what the closed data is or what the 1271 00:59:35,360 - > 00:59:36,079 customer needs. 1272 00:59:36,239 - > 00:59:43,039 Like quotas create bad behavior, and so there we need to rethink 1273 00:59:43,039 - > 00:59:47,280 that completely and we need to forecast our goals differently 1274 00:59:47,519 - > 00:59:52,800 based on the market and what customers are actually buying 1275 00:59:52,800 - > 00:59:54,239 and how they're buying it. 1276 00:59:54,480 - > 00:59:58,480 Sales cycles are longer than ever right now because of that, 1277 00:59:58,960 - > 01:00:02,800 you know, lack of decision making confidence that we just 1278 01:00:02,800 - > 01:00:03,760 talked about, right? 1279 01:00:04,079 - > 01:00:05,840 Sales cycles are getting longer. 1280 01:00:06,000 - > 01:00:09,119 But you know, honestly, salespeople are making them 1281 01:00:09,119 - > 01:00:09,760 longer. 1282 01:00:10,079 - > 01:00:14,320 Yes, the customer is also, but salespeople do it because they 1283 01:00:14,320 - > 01:00:16,320 they're juggling too many things, they're not paying 1284 01:00:16,320 - > 01:00:19,840 attention, they don't use the tools they have to remind them. 1285 01:00:20,079 - > 01:00:24,079 And a whole week goes by and they have made no contact with 1286 01:00:24,079 - > 01:00:28,719 that person who was trying to buy from them, and or they make 1287 01:00:29,280 - > 01:00:33,119 a contact that isn't that is useless, has no value, and 1288 01:00:33,119 - > 01:00:35,679 they're just lengthening their own sales cycle. 1289 01:00:35,920 - > 01:00:39,519 So they're getting distracted, yeah. 1290 01:00:39,840 - > 01:00:42,719 SPEAKER_02: If you had it Alice's way, what would it be in 1291 01:00:42,719 - > 01:00:44,400 terms of like compensation? 1292 01:00:45,920 - > 01:00:50,239 If what if you had it like your way, what would the compensation 1293 01:00:50,320 - > 01:00:50,400 cost? 1294 01:00:51,599 - > 01:00:53,840 SPEAKER_00: I think it's a real rethinking. 1295 01:00:54,000 - > 01:00:56,960 I think that we need to have conversations with our current 1296 01:00:56,960 - > 01:01:00,480 customers and learn more about the way they're buying their buy 1297 01:01:00,480 - > 01:01:05,039 cycles and factor that in, and then use that to predict what 1298 01:01:05,039 - > 01:01:06,960 our new customers will do. 1299 01:01:07,199 - > 01:01:11,199 And yes, I know companies need to grow, of course they do, but 1300 01:01:11,199 - > 01:01:13,760 enforcing a quota isn't how you grow. 1301 01:01:14,000 - > 01:01:17,280 Thinking about your market differently, um, perhaps 1302 01:01:17,519 - > 01:01:21,119 marketing differently, having some events or doing something 1303 01:01:21,119 - > 01:01:25,360 to gather the right people, you know, thinking about how full 1304 01:01:25,360 - > 01:01:28,159 your pipeline is and getting it fuller. 1305 01:01:28,320 - > 01:01:31,760 We don't have to worry about quotas if we have plenty of 1306 01:01:31,760 - > 01:01:34,320 deals in our pipeline that we can work on. 1307 01:01:34,400 - > 01:01:36,960 They're all just, you know, we're gonna we're gonna make 1308 01:01:36,960 - > 01:01:38,000 plenty of money. 1309 01:01:38,239 - > 01:01:40,239 Um, do we need some goals? 1310 01:01:40,400 - > 01:01:40,719 Yes. 1311 01:01:40,880 - > 01:01:42,800 Do we need some timelines? 1312 01:01:42,960 - > 01:01:43,440 Yes. 1313 01:01:43,679 - > 01:01:49,360 But artificial quotas that were built off of no or poor market 1314 01:01:49,360 - > 01:01:53,119 research and no talking to customers just because we need 1315 01:01:53,119 - > 01:01:57,840 20% growth, the quota is 20% higher, doesn't work. 1316 01:01:58,000 - > 01:01:59,119 And it never works. 1317 01:01:59,199 - > 01:02:02,320 And that's why 50% of salespeople are not hitting 1318 01:02:02,320 - > 01:02:03,119 their quota. 1319 01:02:03,440 - > 01:02:06,239 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I've heard some crazy stories of um 1320 01:02:06,239 - > 01:02:08,639 account executives, you know, that I've worked with where 1321 01:02:08,639 - > 01:02:11,280 they're like, yeah, I had my quota at 3 million, I 1322 01:02:11,280 - > 01:02:14,000 overachieved it to, you know, 4 million, and this year they 1323 01:02:14,000 - > 01:02:14,880 raised it to six. 1324 01:02:14,960 - > 01:02:17,280 And I'm like, how why like what? 1325 01:02:17,360 - > 01:02:18,800 Basically, nothing. 1326 01:02:20,159 - > 01:02:22,239 SPEAKER_00: Sounds like you've already done a great job in that 1327 01:02:22,239 - > 01:02:22,719 territory. 1328 01:02:22,800 - > 01:02:25,760 Let's maintain that, let's find a new territory. 1329 01:02:25,840 - > 01:02:29,119 Like, like you don't just increase a quota because. 1330 01:02:30,079 - > 01:02:30,719 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 1331 01:02:31,519 - > 01:02:32,800 Um, okay, cool. 1332 01:02:32,960 - > 01:02:35,039 We're we're getting to the end of it because I want to be 1333 01:02:35,039 - > 01:02:36,239 respectful of your time. 1334 01:02:36,400 - > 01:02:38,960 I'm gonna ask you one last question when it comes to hiring 1335 01:02:38,960 - > 01:02:40,880 and you know, sales skill set. 1336 01:02:41,119 - > 01:02:45,519 In your opinion, what is it that separates like a true a player 1337 01:02:45,519 - > 01:02:49,599 salesperson versus somebody that's just a good salesperson? 1338 01:02:50,800 - > 01:02:53,840 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is such a hard question to answer. 1339 01:02:54,000 - > 01:02:57,840 And also, I just want to say hooray for the good salespeople 1340 01:02:57,920 - > 01:03:02,800 because good, consistent salespeople do meet or almost 1341 01:03:02,800 - > 01:03:06,239 meet, you know, they get to 80% or 90% of their quota and they 1342 01:03:06,239 - > 01:03:07,679 do a good job and they're steady. 1343 01:03:07,840 - > 01:03:12,480 And a players are sometimes divas, they're sometimes you 1344 01:03:12,480 - > 01:03:16,559 know, they go rogue, um, they're a little bit hard to manage 1345 01:03:16,559 - > 01:03:17,199 sometimes. 1346 01:03:17,440 - > 01:03:20,320 So, in my mind, when people think of a player, first of all, 1347 01:03:20,400 - > 01:03:22,159 I need to know what do they mean, right? 1348 01:03:22,320 - > 01:03:23,599 What do you mean by an A player? 1349 01:03:23,679 - > 01:03:25,519 What's an A player to you, right? 1350 01:03:25,920 - > 01:03:30,800 And uh, because I think that again, what are we trying to 1351 01:03:30,800 - > 01:03:31,679 solve for? 1352 01:03:32,159 - > 01:03:32,639 Right? 1353 01:03:32,880 - > 01:03:38,000 What does this person need to be really good at to win in that 1354 01:03:38,000 - > 01:03:39,519 position in your company? 1355 01:03:39,760 - > 01:03:42,559 And that's completely different than what it might be from where 1356 01:03:42,559 - > 01:03:43,199 they came from. 1357 01:03:43,440 - > 01:03:48,159 So we really need to talk about what an A player is, what it 1358 01:03:48,159 - > 01:03:50,480 looks like, what are the characteristics, how they fit in 1359 01:03:50,480 - > 01:03:53,679 the culture, because we have some A players at some companies 1360 01:03:53,679 - > 01:03:56,719 that are crushing it on their quota and making everybody else 1361 01:03:56,719 - > 01:03:57,840 in the company miserable. 1362 01:03:58,000 - > 01:04:01,280 Is that really an A player just because they bring in the 1363 01:04:01,280 - > 01:04:01,599 revenue? 1364 01:04:01,760 - > 01:04:06,400 What if I split that territory between two good salespeople and 1365 01:04:06,400 - > 01:04:07,360 they really worked it? 1366 01:04:07,519 - > 01:04:09,440 I bet we can make even more money. 1367 01:04:09,599 - > 01:04:12,559 And we don't have this toxic person running around our 1368 01:04:12,559 - > 01:04:14,159 company making everybody crazy. 1369 01:04:14,239 - > 01:04:16,159 So, again, be careful what you wish for. 1370 01:04:16,400 - > 01:04:21,360 So, an A player should be described very carefully, and we 1371 01:04:21,360 - > 01:04:23,440 should know what all those attributes are, and they're 1372 01:04:23,440 - > 01:04:25,360 going to be different for every company. 1373 01:04:25,920 - > 01:04:31,199 And we don't need to have an entire team of the best A 1374 01:04:31,280 - > 01:04:35,599 players necessarily, but we can have some up-and-comers also and 1375 01:04:35,599 - > 01:04:38,000 some good solid players, right? 1376 01:04:38,159 - > 01:04:41,679 What we want to do is get rid of everybody below that good 1377 01:04:41,679 - > 01:04:44,159 threshold, and that's where most companies make the mistake. 1378 01:04:44,320 - > 01:04:47,440 They're just hanging on to those salespeople way too long. 1379 01:04:47,599 - > 01:04:50,639 It's either bring them up or get them out. 1380 01:04:51,599 - > 01:04:55,360 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I totally agree with how you explain that. 1381 01:04:55,519 - > 01:05:00,320 And I also agree that you should not sacrifice hiring an A player 1382 01:05:00,320 - > 01:05:04,480 for your culture because they will ruin not just I mean, not 1383 01:05:04,480 - > 01:05:06,480 just them, but like the entire company. 1384 01:05:06,719 - > 01:05:09,920 And you're probably as a CEO or leader are gonna hate going to 1385 01:05:09,920 - > 01:05:12,719 work and trying to manage all these a players that kind of 1386 01:05:12,800 - > 01:05:13,840 like you said, are divis. 1387 01:05:14,000 - > 01:05:17,199 SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and I think if we change our if definition 1388 01:05:17,199 - > 01:05:21,519 of a player, then then okay, because an A player should be 1389 01:05:21,519 - > 01:05:23,360 somebody who is easy to work with. 1390 01:05:23,519 - > 01:05:26,960 Yeah, an A player should be somebody who is team focused, 1391 01:05:27,039 - > 01:05:31,840 everybody wins, and a player should be someone who does a 1392 01:05:31,840 - > 01:05:37,119 great job all the time and exceeds our expectations some of 1393 01:05:37,119 - > 01:05:37,519 the time. 1394 01:05:37,679 - > 01:05:41,360 Like, think about those things versus just when we think a 1395 01:05:41,440 - > 01:05:44,880 player, we're like, oh my gosh, you know, they're going to be at 1396 01:05:44,880 - > 01:05:46,719 130% of quota. 1397 01:05:47,199 - > 01:05:47,760 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 1398 01:05:48,639 - > 01:05:51,039 We're gonna have to do a part two because there's a lot more 1399 01:05:51,039 - > 01:05:53,360 questions I want to ask, and there's so much good 1400 01:05:53,360 - > 01:05:55,679 information, but we'll have to plan for a part two. 1401 01:05:55,920 - > 01:05:56,960 And I do appreciate you. 1402 01:05:57,039 - > 01:06:00,239 Thank you so much for joining, being super transparent and just 1403 01:06:00,239 - > 01:06:02,960 honestly diving into everything and just sharing your 1404 01:06:02,960 - > 01:06:04,800 perspective and your experience. 1405 01:06:04,960 - > 01:06:07,760 Um, I know I'm gonna have to re-watch this and take notes for 1406 01:06:07,760 - > 01:06:08,480 myself. 1407 01:06:08,719 - > 01:06:11,679 If you guys are gonna re-watch this later, make sure to have 1408 01:06:11,679 - > 01:06:12,800 your note taker on. 1409 01:06:12,960 - > 01:06:15,760 Or if you're old school and still like to use pen and paper, 1410 01:06:15,840 - > 01:06:17,280 make sure to do that as well. 1411 01:06:17,440 - > 01:06:19,679 Uh, but absolutely feel free to connect with Alice. 1412 01:06:19,840 - > 01:06:21,039 Alice, where can they find you? 1413 01:06:21,119 - > 01:06:23,360 What's the best way to connect with you if they have questions 1414 01:06:23,440 - > 01:06:26,000 or maybe they want to reach out to you about working with you? 1415 01:06:26,320 - > 01:06:28,800 SPEAKER_00: You can go to AliceHyman.com, or of course, 1416 01:06:28,880 - > 01:06:30,239 you can find me on LinkedIn. 1417 01:06:30,639 - > 01:06:33,760 But I do hope if you want to connect on LinkedIn, you will 1418 01:06:33,760 - > 01:06:36,639 let me know that you heard me here on RV's show. 1419 01:06:36,880 - > 01:06:38,800 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I appreciate that for sure. 1420 01:06:39,039 - > 01:06:39,440 Awesome. 1421 01:06:39,519 - > 01:06:40,480 Thank you again, Alice. 1422 01:06:40,559 - > 01:06:42,960 Thank you, everybody, for tuning, uh tuning in, and I'll 1423 01:06:42,960 - > 01:06:43,920 see you all next time.