Ep.21- A Friendly Human in Pre-Sales: The Behaviors That Actually Win Deals with Ron Whitson

1 00:00:01,919 - > 00:00:03,120 Hello, hello. 2 00:00:03,279 - > 00:00:04,799 Welcome back, everybody. 3 00:00:05,120 - > 00:00:06,080 This is Arve. 4 00:00:06,320 - > 00:00:07,839 I'm the founder of Ellie Talent. 5 00:00:08,000 - > 00:00:11,119 Welcome back to my podcast, Presales Unplug, the Leadership 6 00:00:11,119 - > 00:00:11,759 Playbook. 7 00:00:12,000 - > 00:00:15,679 As you all know by now, I work with SaaS companies to hire 8 00:00:15,679 - > 00:00:18,480 top-tier pre-sales and post-sales talent, but today 9 00:00:18,480 - > 00:00:19,600 it's not about me. 10 00:00:19,760 - > 00:00:23,359 Today, this show really is about the leaders behind those 11 00:00:23,359 - > 00:00:25,440 pre-sales teams, those go-to-market teams. 12 00:00:25,679 - > 00:00:27,839 And they are the ones that actually implement the 13 00:00:27,839 - > 00:00:29,519 strategies that work in today's market. 14 00:00:29,600 - > 00:00:32,640 So I'm super excited to dive in into another episode with a 15 00:00:32,640 - > 00:00:34,079 very, very awesome guest. 16 00:00:34,399 - > 00:00:38,000 If this is your first time joining us, one quick note 17 00:00:38,000 - > 00:00:39,039 before we jump in. 18 00:00:39,280 - > 00:00:42,399 These conversations are live and intentionally unedited. 19 00:00:42,479 - > 00:00:45,759 So what you hear here today is exactly how it happened. 20 00:00:45,920 - > 00:00:48,799 We stream it live, but also you can catch a replay on our 21 00:00:48,799 - > 00:00:51,759 podcast across Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or whatever it is that 22 00:00:51,759 - > 00:00:52,240 you listen. 23 00:00:52,640 - > 00:00:55,679 And my only ask is if you do get value from the conversation, 24 00:00:55,759 - > 00:00:58,719 please make sure to follow, subscribe, and leave a review. 25 00:00:58,880 - > 00:01:01,119 I personally read every single one of them. 26 00:01:01,280 - > 00:01:04,799 And if you do have questions for our guest after the fact, just 27 00:01:04,799 - > 00:01:05,599 make sure to comment. 28 00:01:05,680 - > 00:01:09,040 I'll make sure to tag them if I can answer it directly so that 29 00:01:09,040 - > 00:01:10,319 you can get your answers. 30 00:01:10,560 - > 00:01:14,239 But with that being said, today I'm super excited to be joined 31 00:01:14,239 - > 00:01:15,760 by Ron Whitson. 32 00:01:16,079 - > 00:01:20,560 He is a honestly an expert, I would say, in pre-sales by now. 33 00:01:20,640 - > 00:01:24,879 And I'm I'm excited to dive into questions, you know, and just 34 00:01:24,879 - > 00:01:26,000 ask him a bunch of things. 35 00:01:26,079 - > 00:01:29,760 But he is the senior director of social consulting as well as the 36 00:01:29,760 - > 00:01:34,079 published author of the friendly human of friendly human in 37 00:01:34,079 - > 00:01:37,200 pre-sales, has a very strong record in the space. 38 00:01:37,280 - > 00:01:40,959 And I'm very excited to be here, hear your story, and just dive 39 00:01:40,959 - > 00:01:41,840 into our topic today. 40 00:01:42,000 - > 00:01:43,359 Thanks for joining me, Ron. 41 00:01:43,599 - > 00:01:45,439 No, Arby, thanks for the invitation. 42 00:01:45,519 - > 00:01:48,959 Uh, it's so nice to get a chance to be on your your famous show. 43 00:01:49,040 - > 00:01:50,640 And oh, my famous show. 44 00:01:50,799 - > 00:01:51,519 Love that. 45 00:01:51,840 - > 00:01:53,200 And share with people. 46 00:01:53,359 - > 00:01:55,519 Um, expert, I don't know. 47 00:01:55,599 - > 00:01:57,439 There's still things that I'm learning, which is really 48 00:01:57,439 - > 00:02:01,280 exciting for me, but what is the the thing about it takes 10,000 49 00:02:01,280 - > 00:02:03,280 hours to be really good at a topic? 50 00:02:03,439 - > 00:02:05,840 And I think I've got that a few times over now. 51 00:02:05,920 - > 00:02:09,520 So yeah, I think I know a couple things about pre-sales, and I 52 00:02:09,520 - > 00:02:11,120 just absolutely love everything about it. 53 00:02:11,199 - > 00:02:12,800 So again, thank you for the invitation. 54 00:02:12,879 - > 00:02:14,240 It's wonderful to be here with you. 55 00:02:14,479 - > 00:02:17,199 No, I love that you just triggered like a quote in my 56 00:02:17,199 - > 00:02:17,520 head. 57 00:02:17,759 - > 00:02:22,240 It's um the quote I I kind of live by is like it takes 10 plus 58 00:02:22,240 - > 00:02:24,400 years to become an overnight success, right? 59 00:02:24,560 - > 00:02:27,360 So everybody sees like the end of it, but they don't see the 60 00:02:27,360 - > 00:02:28,159 years behind it. 61 00:02:28,240 - > 00:02:29,840 So they don't see all the hard work. 62 00:02:30,240 - > 00:02:32,240 I think that's true in tree sales too, right? 63 00:02:32,400 - > 00:02:35,520 That's one of the reasons why uh when I hear the word demo, I 64 00:02:35,520 - > 00:02:36,080 cringe a bit. 65 00:02:36,240 - > 00:02:39,919 I say demo is a four-letter word because people talk about that, 66 00:02:40,000 - > 00:02:43,120 and that's the most visible thing, but they don't see all 67 00:02:43,120 - > 00:02:44,719 the preparation, all the hard work. 68 00:02:44,879 - > 00:02:46,240 It's kind of the same thing, right? 69 00:02:46,479 - > 00:02:47,759 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 70 00:02:47,919 - > 00:02:51,520 Now, before we dive into all the technical terms, Ron, I I'd love 71 00:02:51,520 - > 00:02:53,280 to hear just a little bit more about you. 72 00:02:53,439 - > 00:02:54,719 Take us back to the beginning. 73 00:02:54,879 - > 00:02:59,039 How did you even end up in this wonderful world of pre-sales? 74 00:02:59,759 - > 00:03:01,039 Oh, yeah, that's a good story. 75 00:03:01,199 - > 00:03:03,360 And I don't think we can go all the way back to the beginning 76 00:03:03,439 - > 00:03:04,960 because it was a while ago. 77 00:03:05,120 - > 00:03:10,080 But um, no, I was uh I was a nerd tech guy back before there 78 00:03:10,080 - > 00:03:13,919 was a lot of tech to play with, and um was a programmer and 79 00:03:13,919 - > 00:03:15,439 developer, database administrator. 80 00:03:15,520 - > 00:03:18,080 Again, the most nerdy stuff. 81 00:03:18,319 - > 00:03:21,680 And um, I was working at a consulting firm, and uh my dear 82 00:03:21,680 - > 00:03:23,840 friend who was actually working for me at the time, Shane 83 00:03:23,919 - > 00:03:27,280 Phillips, he got hired by this company called Main Control. 84 00:03:27,360 - > 00:03:31,039 They had brought a product over to the US to do what was known 85 00:03:31,039 - > 00:03:33,120 as IT asset management tracking. 86 00:03:33,280 - > 00:03:37,039 This is back before the days of Y2K when we thought airplanes 87 00:03:37,039 - > 00:03:39,120 were going to fall out of the sky and things are just gonna 88 00:03:39,120 - > 00:03:40,960 stop working when the clock ticked over. 89 00:03:41,280 - > 00:03:44,639 Anyway, Shane calls me up one day after he got hired over 90 00:03:44,639 - > 00:03:44,879 there. 91 00:03:44,960 - > 00:03:47,599 He says, Hey, there's this thing called a sales engineer. 92 00:03:47,840 - > 00:03:51,439 He says, I think you'd like it and I think you'd be good at it. 93 00:03:51,680 - > 00:03:55,280 So that was actually in October of 1998. 94 00:03:55,520 - > 00:03:58,960 I went and took that job and I've been enjoying the 95 00:03:58,960 - > 00:04:02,000 profession and working on my craft ever since. 96 00:04:02,319 - > 00:04:03,520 Wow, love that. 97 00:04:03,680 - > 00:04:05,120 And isn't it crazy? 98 00:04:05,360 - > 00:04:08,400 I mean, I've even noticed a change in the last like three 99 00:04:08,400 - > 00:04:12,000 years alone, but I can't even imagine how big the change has 100 00:04:12,000 - > 00:04:15,520 been in like the pre-sales as a whole from back then to now. 101 00:04:15,680 - > 00:04:16,959 What what was it so different? 102 00:04:17,040 - > 00:04:19,279 If I I don't know if you remember back then, but like 103 00:04:19,360 - > 00:04:21,439 what what was it back then to now? 104 00:04:21,600 - > 00:04:22,959 How has it changed? 105 00:04:23,279 - > 00:04:24,639 It's it's changed so much. 106 00:04:24,720 - > 00:04:26,720 That's a really uh great point that you bring up. 107 00:04:26,879 - > 00:04:30,720 I mean, back in the day, uh sales engineer was basically the 108 00:04:30,720 - > 00:04:33,600 least objectionable person you could find that you could put in 109 00:04:33,600 - > 00:04:34,399 front of a customer. 110 00:04:34,480 - > 00:04:35,360 That's this guy. 111 00:04:35,839 - > 00:04:39,439 And and what we were doing was was was we were training, we 112 00:04:39,439 - > 00:04:40,959 were training people on the software, right? 113 00:04:41,040 - > 00:04:43,040 We're explaining to them how it works. 114 00:04:43,199 - > 00:04:48,480 And I think that is a good um first iteration of what demos 115 00:04:48,800 - > 00:04:49,040 were. 116 00:04:49,279 - > 00:04:52,319 And and fortunately, now we've moved much, much more forward 117 00:04:52,480 - > 00:04:57,279 where the idea is really all around outcomes and the value it 118 00:04:57,279 - > 00:05:00,000 drives and the solution it gives our customers. 119 00:05:00,160 - > 00:05:03,279 I tell my team all the time, we don't do demos, we deliver 120 00:05:03,279 - > 00:05:04,399 solution presentations. 121 00:05:04,480 - > 00:05:06,800 That's what's really important to your audience. 122 00:05:06,879 - > 00:05:09,040 They could care less about how your software works. 123 00:05:09,199 - > 00:05:11,680 They want to know if it fixes the problem that they have, 124 00:05:11,920 - > 00:05:12,240 right? 125 00:05:12,560 - > 00:05:16,560 And I think as we move forward and in this age of AI, the 126 00:05:16,560 - > 00:05:19,439 skills that make someone really good in pre-sales really become 127 00:05:19,439 - > 00:05:22,399 that of uh that of a facilitator, right? 128 00:05:22,560 - > 00:05:25,279 So you're going into this meeting and you're asking 129 00:05:25,279 - > 00:05:27,839 questions, you're doing really good discovery to try to 130 00:05:27,839 - > 00:05:31,279 understand the real pain that a company is having, and you're 131 00:05:31,279 - > 00:05:34,319 solutioning, you're helping them come up with a way to address 132 00:05:34,319 - > 00:05:34,879 that pain. 133 00:05:35,120 - > 00:05:37,759 So I think that's the curve that we've seen. 134 00:05:37,920 - > 00:05:40,879 Um, the other thing that I'm very happy that we've seen over 135 00:05:40,879 - > 00:05:44,800 time is a lot more uh recognition of the value that 136 00:05:44,800 - > 00:05:47,759 the sales engineers and the solution consultants provide to 137 00:05:47,759 - > 00:05:48,639 the organization. 138 00:05:48,800 - > 00:05:51,759 Um I think it's been really cool to see the different software 139 00:05:51,759 - > 00:05:55,040 tools that have been created specifically for the pre-sales 140 00:05:55,040 - > 00:05:55,360 space. 141 00:05:55,519 - > 00:05:59,920 So no, it's been it's been fun to have a front seat in this uh 142 00:06:00,240 - > 00:06:04,800 show as everything has expanded and developed and grown over 143 00:06:04,800 - > 00:06:05,040 time. 144 00:06:05,360 - > 00:06:05,680 Yeah. 145 00:06:05,920 - > 00:06:09,279 I mean, honestly, one thing I learned personally in the last 146 00:06:09,279 - > 00:06:13,120 few years is pre-sales is like a big world, but at the same time, 147 00:06:13,199 - > 00:06:16,480 it's pretty like a small community and tight knit too. 148 00:06:16,639 - > 00:06:20,000 So a lot of people are relationship driven, you know, 149 00:06:20,079 - > 00:06:21,519 within the pre-sales world. 150 00:06:21,759 - > 00:06:24,720 And it's like, you know, you know somebody that knows 151 00:06:24,720 - > 00:06:27,519 somebody, and it it's it's big, but it's still pretty small, 152 00:06:27,600 - > 00:06:27,759 right? 153 00:06:27,839 - > 00:06:30,160 It's one of those like the world is big, but I can't believe how 154 00:06:30,160 - > 00:06:31,040 small it is. 155 00:06:31,279 - > 00:06:34,720 And I I've definitely enjoyed seeing it grow the last few 156 00:06:34,720 - > 00:06:38,079 years as well, of a lot more people, you know, joining the 157 00:06:38,079 - > 00:06:39,600 space and the community overall. 158 00:06:39,680 - > 00:06:42,560 And it's it's been fun, and I'm sure you get joy out of that 159 00:06:42,639 - > 00:06:43,199 too. 160 00:06:43,519 - > 00:06:44,399 I do indeed. 161 00:06:44,560 - > 00:06:47,680 Uh, I remember when I first started um becoming associated 162 00:06:47,680 - > 00:06:48,800 with the pre-sales collective. 163 00:06:48,879 - > 00:06:49,920 It wasn't that long ago. 164 00:06:50,079 - > 00:06:52,639 Yeah, yeah, I knew there were other pre-sales people out 165 00:06:52,639 - > 00:06:55,839 there, but you know, what a joy to connect with them and to do 166 00:06:55,839 - > 00:06:56,160 some of it. 167 00:06:56,480 - > 00:06:58,319 We've got a very strong pre-sales community here in 168 00:06:58,319 - > 00:07:02,399 Dallas Fort Worth, and myself and uh Rashida and Alice, and we 169 00:07:02,399 - > 00:07:05,199 get everybody together on a pretty regular basis, and it's 170 00:07:05,199 - > 00:07:05,920 fantastic. 171 00:07:06,160 - > 00:07:08,240 So uh no, it very much is a community. 172 00:07:08,319 - > 00:07:12,560 And I think also people who typically enjoy pre-sales and 173 00:07:12,560 - > 00:07:14,720 are good at pre-sales are are friendly people. 174 00:07:14,800 - > 00:07:17,519 We've got a little bit of people pleasing in us, so that 175 00:07:17,519 - > 00:07:20,480 certainly helps with some of the uh relationships that we create. 176 00:07:20,720 - > 00:07:22,160 Yeah, yeah, I love that. 177 00:07:22,399 - > 00:07:25,040 Ron, I want to jump a little bit into your leadership journey. 178 00:07:25,199 - > 00:07:28,399 You've really moved from obviously throughout your career 179 00:07:28,399 - > 00:07:30,399 in different companies, different stages, different 180 00:07:30,399 - > 00:07:31,439 types of teams. 181 00:07:31,680 - > 00:07:35,839 Have you noticed any sort of like way that you manage like a 182 00:07:36,399 - > 00:07:39,120 team within a bigger company versus a small one or any 183 00:07:39,120 - > 00:07:41,680 mindset shifts or anything of that sort? 184 00:07:42,399 - > 00:07:43,920 Wow, that's pretty interesting. 185 00:07:44,079 - > 00:07:49,519 Um, let me start by saying I see leadership and management as two 186 00:07:49,519 - > 00:07:50,720 very different things, right? 187 00:07:50,879 - > 00:07:52,240 And and companies need both. 188 00:07:52,399 - > 00:07:53,279 Companies need both. 189 00:07:53,360 - > 00:07:57,279 I mean, the management aspect of it, I think that's all the HR, 190 00:07:57,439 - > 00:08:00,480 you know, dotting the I's, crossing the T's, those types of 191 00:08:00,480 - > 00:08:04,480 things, and making sure uh all the metrics are captured 192 00:08:04,480 - > 00:08:06,480 correctly and those types of things. 193 00:08:06,639 - > 00:08:08,959 Um, I don't want to be managed, I want to be led. 194 00:08:09,040 - > 00:08:11,680 And so I like to think that people on my team would like to 195 00:08:11,680 - > 00:08:12,480 be led as well. 196 00:08:12,639 - > 00:08:17,040 So that involves setting a vision and being able to coach 197 00:08:17,040 - > 00:08:20,480 and help people achieve that vision and achieve other things 198 00:08:20,480 - > 00:08:22,240 in their professional life as well. 199 00:08:22,560 - > 00:08:26,399 If we think about applying those principles to small company, big 200 00:08:26,399 - > 00:08:29,519 company, smallest company I was at was 80 people, largest 201 00:08:29,519 - > 00:08:31,680 company was 340,000 people. 202 00:08:32,000 - > 00:08:36,799 Um, the leadership piece of it to me wasn't that different, 203 00:08:37,039 - > 00:08:37,360 right? 204 00:08:37,919 - > 00:08:40,559 The management piece of it was very different. 205 00:08:40,720 - > 00:08:43,519 As a startup, there's less controls, there's less 206 00:08:43,519 - > 00:08:49,519 regulations, there's uh less HR left than in a 340,000-person 207 00:08:49,519 - > 00:08:50,159 company. 208 00:08:50,639 - > 00:08:54,399 As a as a good pre-sales leader overall, you've got to be able 209 00:08:54,399 - > 00:08:55,200 to navigate that. 210 00:08:55,279 - > 00:08:57,039 You can't just say, I'm not gonna mess with that piece of 211 00:08:57,039 - > 00:08:57,279 the job. 212 00:08:57,360 - > 00:08:59,440 You've got to be able to handle that aspect of it too. 213 00:08:59,600 - > 00:09:02,480 And those are important aspects to manage. 214 00:09:02,799 - > 00:09:06,879 Um, in the startups, sometimes those are more fun because 215 00:09:06,879 - > 00:09:10,240 you've got a lot wider purview on the things you can do, and 216 00:09:10,240 - > 00:09:14,639 you can typically see the impact of your actions much faster than 217 00:09:14,639 - > 00:09:16,159 in the larger companies. 218 00:09:16,399 - > 00:09:19,120 I think one of the things that I've been able to bring to my 219 00:09:19,120 - > 00:09:22,720 organizations is some of that nimbleness, some of that agility 220 00:09:22,720 - > 00:09:24,639 that I learned with small companies. 221 00:09:24,879 - > 00:09:26,960 You can actually make the big companies do it. 222 00:09:27,120 - > 00:09:29,519 It's a bit more challenging sometimes. 223 00:09:29,679 - > 00:09:30,159 Yeah. 224 00:09:30,480 - > 00:09:33,360 But you can get the uh, you know, the larger organizations 225 00:09:33,360 - > 00:09:36,080 to actually change a bit and look at things in a different 226 00:09:36,080 - > 00:09:37,759 way and get some of those quick wins. 227 00:09:37,840 - > 00:09:40,240 And we've been able to do that in the the current opportunity. 228 00:09:40,320 - > 00:09:42,879 So it's it's kind of like a test case through it out. 229 00:09:42,960 - > 00:09:43,440 So yeah. 230 00:09:43,759 - > 00:09:44,080 Yeah. 231 00:09:44,320 - > 00:09:44,879 I love that. 232 00:09:44,960 - > 00:09:47,519 Actually, that was a very interesting piece of how you 233 00:09:47,519 - > 00:09:47,919 said it. 234 00:09:48,000 - > 00:09:50,720 It's not the leadership that changes, it's the management. 235 00:09:50,879 - > 00:09:53,679 And it makes sense just because of you know the environment 236 00:09:53,759 - > 00:09:54,240 overall. 237 00:09:54,480 - > 00:09:57,360 And I agree, I don't think leadership should change because 238 00:09:57,360 - > 00:10:00,000 that's mainly you as a person and how you lead. 239 00:10:00,080 - > 00:10:02,960 So if that changes, it's that might be a problem, I would 240 00:10:02,960 - > 00:10:03,279 think. 241 00:10:03,679 - > 00:10:05,679 It it should be you as a person, right? 242 00:10:05,840 - > 00:10:08,320 Because and again, we can talk more about the book, but one of 243 00:10:08,320 - > 00:10:10,240 the things that's really important to me is is 244 00:10:10,240 - > 00:10:11,440 authenticity. 245 00:10:11,759 - > 00:10:15,600 And if if someone is not perceiving you as being 246 00:10:15,600 - > 00:10:18,080 authentic, they're perceiving you as being fake, then you're 247 00:10:18,080 - > 00:10:20,480 gonna have a really hard time developing a relationship with 248 00:10:20,480 - > 00:10:23,039 that person, whether it's someone on your team, a 249 00:10:23,039 - > 00:10:25,759 counterpart, a stakeholder, or a customer. 250 00:10:25,919 - > 00:10:28,000 So that's one thing that's really, really important. 251 00:10:28,159 - > 00:10:31,679 And I think authenticity a lot of times is perceived by people 252 00:10:31,679 - > 00:10:34,639 who interact with us as consistency over time in their 253 00:10:34,639 - > 00:10:35,679 interactions with us. 254 00:10:35,840 - > 00:10:38,080 So I think that's really, really important. 255 00:10:38,480 - > 00:10:41,120 Um, and at the end of the day, too, I talk more about 256 00:10:41,120 - > 00:10:43,120 leadership because again, it's people. 257 00:10:43,279 - > 00:10:45,840 The people are the most important resource, right? 258 00:10:45,919 - > 00:10:48,240 And then time is the second most important resource. 259 00:10:48,480 - > 00:10:52,240 So if you've got the right people in the right job, then 260 00:10:52,240 - > 00:10:55,519 the rest of it to me as a leader is just again setting that 261 00:10:55,519 - > 00:10:58,000 vision and then getting obstacles out of the way and 262 00:10:58,000 - > 00:11:00,639 allowing them to do the things that they would like to do or 263 00:11:00,639 - > 00:11:02,639 you need them to do that they enjoy doing. 264 00:11:02,960 - > 00:11:03,919 Yeah, I love that. 265 00:11:04,080 - > 00:11:06,720 Ron, I think something that's also very unique about your 266 00:11:06,720 - > 00:11:09,600 experience overall is you told me that you've spent some time 267 00:11:09,600 - > 00:11:10,799 on the AE side. 268 00:11:11,120 - > 00:11:11,440 Oh, yeah. 269 00:11:11,679 - > 00:11:14,080 What did that experience teach you about pre-sales? 270 00:11:14,320 - > 00:11:16,480 You know, that maybe you couldn't have necessarily 271 00:11:16,480 - > 00:11:18,639 learned inside the role itself. 272 00:11:19,039 - > 00:11:20,480 No, that's a that's a good one. 273 00:11:20,720 - > 00:11:23,919 So I was actually leading a pre-sales team at IBM and I had 274 00:11:23,919 - > 00:11:26,960 the opportunity to take a seller role. 275 00:11:27,200 - > 00:11:28,639 And why did I do this? 276 00:11:28,799 - > 00:11:33,679 Well, over my experience in pre-sales, I saw that typically 277 00:11:33,679 - > 00:11:37,279 pre-sales leaders came in one of two flavors, right? 278 00:11:37,600 - > 00:11:40,240 One was someone who'd been around for a long time. 279 00:11:40,399 - > 00:11:42,080 Everyone knew they liked them really, really well. 280 00:11:42,159 - > 00:11:45,440 They'd smile and nod at them like you do at your uncle at 281 00:11:45,440 - > 00:11:48,480 Thanksgiving, but they really couldn't make things happen. 282 00:11:48,559 - > 00:11:50,320 They didn't have any influence. 283 00:11:50,559 - > 00:11:53,759 Then there were other pre-sales leaders that were able to make 284 00:11:53,759 - > 00:11:54,240 things happen. 285 00:11:54,320 - > 00:11:57,360 They were able to get uh, you know, tools for their team. 286 00:11:57,440 - > 00:12:00,879 They were able, they were able to make big process changes and 287 00:12:00,879 - > 00:12:04,159 set things up, and you could see the impact they were having. 288 00:12:04,320 - > 00:12:07,440 And I wanted to be more like that than than the uncle at 289 00:12:07,440 - > 00:12:08,240 Thanksgiving. 290 00:12:08,399 - > 00:12:12,639 And as I studied and dug in a little bit on this, most of 291 00:12:12,639 - > 00:12:16,240 those who had the influence had more direct sales experience 292 00:12:16,240 - > 00:12:17,200 than I had at the time. 293 00:12:17,519 - > 00:12:20,559 Again, both you know, individual contributor, pre-sales leader, 294 00:12:20,639 - > 00:12:22,240 but no real direct sales experience. 295 00:12:22,399 - > 00:12:25,759 So I thought, what a wonderful opportunity to go and gain some 296 00:12:25,759 - > 00:12:26,240 of that. 297 00:12:26,399 - > 00:12:28,320 So it ended up being a three-year stint. 298 00:12:28,399 - > 00:12:31,039 I did all the things, I did the cold calling, I did the 299 00:12:31,039 - > 00:12:33,279 negotiating, I did the signing, all that kind of stuff. 300 00:12:33,440 - > 00:12:38,720 And from that experience, what I can tell you is anyone who is in 301 00:12:38,720 - > 00:12:41,840 pre-sales, you could do the AE job. 302 00:12:41,919 - > 00:12:43,120 I guarantee you could. 303 00:12:43,279 - > 00:12:46,639 Um, but there's gonna be things about it that you do not like, 304 00:12:46,799 - > 00:12:49,840 there'll be aspects of it that you don't enjoy. 305 00:12:50,159 - > 00:12:55,120 For me, the part that I didn't enjoy the most was what I refer 306 00:12:55,200 - > 00:12:57,200 to as reputational fluidity. 307 00:12:57,440 - > 00:13:00,960 What I mean by that, if I had a good quarter, everybody loved 308 00:13:00,960 - > 00:13:01,679 me, right? 309 00:13:02,320 - > 00:13:04,320 You go a couple of weeks into the next quarter, you don't 310 00:13:04,320 - > 00:13:04,720 close the deal. 311 00:13:04,799 - > 00:13:05,440 It's like, what are you doing? 312 00:13:05,519 - > 00:13:07,360 It's like, wait a minute, you know me, you you know I'm good, 313 00:13:07,440 - > 00:13:08,320 you know I've got value. 314 00:13:08,480 - > 00:13:11,279 Yeah, but that's not how you were perceived. 315 00:13:11,360 - > 00:13:14,320 So that was that was really that I didn't like that. 316 00:13:14,480 - > 00:13:18,399 And so what I learned is I'm not coin operated, and I don't mean 317 00:13:18,399 - > 00:13:21,919 that in any bad way, but I don't wake every I don't wake up every 318 00:13:21,919 - > 00:13:24,720 morning, you know, who am I selling today, you know, how 319 00:13:24,720 - > 00:13:26,000 much money am I making? 320 00:13:26,240 - > 00:13:29,039 I wake up every morning energized by different solutions 321 00:13:29,120 - > 00:13:30,720 I'm going to solve. 322 00:13:30,960 - > 00:13:33,360 Solve different problems I'm gonna solve, just different 323 00:13:33,360 - > 00:13:36,559 solutions I'm gonna work on, whether that's coaching someone 324 00:13:36,559 - > 00:13:40,000 on how they're going to present something or trying to fix some 325 00:13:40,000 - > 00:13:42,159 process to gain some efficiencies in our business. 326 00:13:42,240 - > 00:13:43,679 That's what energizes me. 327 00:13:43,919 - > 00:13:44,080 Yeah. 328 00:13:44,240 - > 00:13:46,480 The other thing that I learned from the experience, I'm really, 329 00:13:46,559 - > 00:13:51,279 really glad that I got it, is developing empathy for the very 330 00:13:51,279 - > 00:13:54,480 difficult job our selling partners have. 331 00:13:55,039 - > 00:13:59,679 And how that informs me is listen, sellers are always going 332 00:13:59,679 - > 00:14:02,000 to be kind of crazy and ask for something at the last minute 333 00:14:02,080 - > 00:14:03,919 when it's not justified. 334 00:14:04,159 - > 00:14:06,000 I'm not always gonna say no to them. 335 00:14:06,080 - > 00:14:08,159 I'm gonna say, hey, I understand what you're trying to do. 336 00:14:08,240 - > 00:14:10,399 Tell me a little more about why you think this is the best 337 00:14:10,399 - > 00:14:10,720 route. 338 00:14:10,799 - > 00:14:13,600 And then we just basically open it up and have a conversation 339 00:14:13,600 - > 00:14:16,879 and try to land on the best solution for them, for the 340 00:14:16,879 - > 00:14:18,559 organization, and for my team. 341 00:14:18,960 - > 00:14:22,000 But the empathy was a really important thing to gain and 342 00:14:22,000 - > 00:14:22,720 develop. 343 00:14:23,039 - > 00:14:25,679 I was gonna say that definitely probably made you appreciate 344 00:14:25,679 - > 00:14:27,360 salespeople a lot more. 345 00:14:27,600 - > 00:14:28,320 I I agree. 346 00:14:28,399 - > 00:14:30,720 I think you have to have a lot of thick skin to be like a 347 00:14:30,720 - > 00:14:32,159 salesperson and a good one too. 348 00:14:32,240 - > 00:14:33,440 It's it's hard, it's not easy. 349 00:14:33,600 - > 00:14:36,559 They go through a ton more ejections than probably, you 350 00:14:36,559 - > 00:14:39,519 know, sales engineers goes or just pre-sales in general, 351 00:14:39,600 - > 00:14:41,039 unless you're doing both positions. 352 00:14:41,279 - > 00:14:44,960 But yeah, that's um, that's actually really awesome that you 353 00:14:44,960 - > 00:14:46,320 got to experience that. 354 00:14:46,480 - > 00:14:50,159 And I agree, I think it probably gave you a perspective that not 355 00:14:50,159 - > 00:14:53,200 a ton of pre-sales leaders, even nowadays, really good because 356 00:14:53,200 - > 00:14:57,039 not everybody will, you know, try both the sales side and the 357 00:14:57,039 - > 00:14:58,960 pre-sales, you know, or post sometimes. 358 00:14:59,120 - > 00:15:01,039 So that's pretty awesome. 359 00:15:01,360 - > 00:15:05,360 And then you published your book in 2024, uh, which was focused 360 00:15:05,360 - > 00:15:07,039 on pre-sales soft skills. 361 00:15:07,279 - > 00:15:09,919 What was there like a moment that you realized this needed to 362 00:15:09,919 - > 00:15:12,879 be written, or what kind of sparked the idea to go through 363 00:15:12,879 - > 00:15:13,360 with that? 364 00:15:13,679 - > 00:15:14,480 Oh, good question. 365 00:15:14,639 - > 00:15:18,960 No, um, I'd always felt like um there was a book up here, right? 366 00:15:19,039 - > 00:15:22,159 Uh, I really enjoy writing, it's expressed itself in different 367 00:15:22,159 - > 00:15:23,200 ways over the years. 368 00:15:23,840 - > 00:15:27,759 Um, but I didn't want it to be some vanity project, right? 369 00:15:27,840 - > 00:15:29,759 Uh just writing a book for the sake of writing a book. 370 00:15:29,840 - > 00:15:30,799 I wanted to have a purpose. 371 00:15:30,960 - > 00:15:33,519 I didn't understand what that purpose would be. 372 00:15:33,759 - > 00:15:37,919 And then I read uh this book here by Mr. 373 00:15:38,000 - > 00:15:40,639 Chris White, and it was amazing. 374 00:15:40,799 - > 00:15:43,519 Yeah, it is, it is six habits of highly effective sales 375 00:15:43,519 - > 00:15:44,159 engineers. 376 00:15:44,320 - > 00:15:49,039 But um, I read Chris's book and it resonated with me so strongly 377 00:15:49,279 - > 00:15:52,480 because in it Chris kind of tells the story of how he came 378 00:15:52,480 - > 00:15:55,200 into the profession and the things that he developed to help 379 00:15:55,200 - > 00:15:55,840 him succeed. 380 00:15:56,000 - > 00:15:59,679 And it really unlocked for me, well, what if I told my story? 381 00:15:59,840 - > 00:16:03,679 And my story was that very, very technical person coming into 382 00:16:03,679 - > 00:16:06,720 this role, showing up doing the perfect demo. 383 00:16:06,799 - > 00:16:10,799 I mean, RV, I had all the bells and whistles, I had the slick 384 00:16:10,879 - > 00:16:12,080 the slide transitions. 385 00:16:12,159 - > 00:16:14,159 I mean, it was amazing. 386 00:16:14,399 - > 00:16:17,600 Um, and then I'd get the feedback afterwards, hey, you 387 00:16:17,600 - > 00:16:18,879 know, good demo, Ron, thank you. 388 00:16:18,960 - > 00:16:21,600 And but they wouldn't buy, they wouldn't, they didn't buy the 389 00:16:21,600 - > 00:16:21,919 software. 390 00:16:22,000 - > 00:16:24,399 I didn't convince my audience, I didn't build those 391 00:16:24,399 - > 00:16:25,120 relationships. 392 00:16:25,279 - > 00:16:28,320 And so the feedback was good demo, you got to work on your 393 00:16:28,320 - > 00:16:28,799 people skills. 394 00:16:28,960 - > 00:16:30,399 Like, what do you mean, people skills? 395 00:16:30,480 - > 00:16:32,399 I clicked all the buttons, I did the mouse. 396 00:16:32,559 - > 00:16:32,960 It's great. 397 00:16:33,679 - > 00:16:37,120 And so it was really this journey of all the soft skills. 398 00:16:37,200 - > 00:16:40,720 And I started out by, you know, let me go study this and find 399 00:16:40,720 - > 00:16:40,879 this. 400 00:16:41,039 - > 00:16:44,960 And I really couldn't find many resources that spoke to me in my 401 00:16:44,960 - > 00:16:47,679 engineer brain about the soft skills stuff. 402 00:16:47,840 - > 00:16:51,679 So the book ended up being a story of the things that I 403 00:16:51,679 - > 00:16:54,320 needed to develop to get better at the role. 404 00:16:54,480 - > 00:16:57,679 And then understanding how Chris approached his book, it's like, 405 00:16:57,759 - > 00:17:00,399 well, maybe I'll just tell that story and maybe it could be 406 00:17:00,399 - > 00:17:01,279 helpful to others. 407 00:17:01,360 - > 00:17:02,879 And it's it seems to be doing pretty well. 408 00:17:02,960 - > 00:17:03,919 People seem to enjoy it. 409 00:17:04,000 - > 00:17:06,319 So I'm I'm really, I'm really super proud of it. 410 00:17:06,640 - > 00:17:07,519 Yeah, I love it. 411 00:17:07,680 - > 00:17:11,440 And your book literally tackles what you just said, where white 412 00:17:11,440 - > 00:17:14,000 people don't buy even when the demo goes well. 413 00:17:14,240 - > 00:17:16,319 Have you even for yourself back then? 414 00:17:16,480 - > 00:17:19,359 And I think honestly, that's still relatable because there's 415 00:17:19,680 - > 00:17:22,079 everybody can come into pre-sales, whether it's like, 416 00:17:22,160 - > 00:17:24,559 you know, I've had people tell me, hey, I came from marketing 417 00:17:24,720 - > 00:17:28,000 into pre-sales or very technical backgrounds into pre-sales. 418 00:17:28,480 - > 00:17:31,519 And either way, just because you're from marketing doesn't 419 00:17:31,519 - > 00:17:34,880 mean that you have those soft skills already like set up for 420 00:17:34,880 - > 00:17:38,240 you in your brain, you know, it's not natural for everybody. 421 00:17:38,480 - > 00:17:41,200 So, what were either for yourself or what you've seen 422 00:17:41,279 - > 00:17:44,880 most SCs like get or are are missing when it comes to like 423 00:17:44,880 - > 00:17:47,119 the soft skills or like a real gap? 424 00:17:47,519 - > 00:17:51,920 Yeah, I think it's really the way I'll speak from my 425 00:17:51,920 - > 00:17:52,400 viewpoint. 426 00:17:52,480 - > 00:17:56,240 The way I approached it initially was I'm here to do the 427 00:17:56,240 - > 00:17:59,119 best demo of our software and show you how it all works, 428 00:17:59,279 - > 00:17:59,519 right? 429 00:17:59,680 - > 00:18:02,480 Yeah, and that's where I kind of stopped initially. 430 00:18:02,799 - > 00:18:05,920 And I don't think it was the best experience for my audience 431 00:18:05,920 - > 00:18:08,799 because it wasn't addressing any of their needs directly. 432 00:18:09,039 - > 00:18:13,119 But I didn't understand that I was there to help their needs, 433 00:18:13,200 - > 00:18:14,000 it was all about me. 434 00:18:14,079 - > 00:18:16,720 That's kind of where empathy and humility come into play. 435 00:18:16,880 - > 00:18:20,319 So the book really covers what I call seven timeless behaviors, 436 00:18:20,400 - > 00:18:20,559 right? 437 00:18:20,640 - > 00:18:22,319 We already talked about the first one, which is be 438 00:18:22,319 - > 00:18:25,759 authentic, because if your audience doesn't perceive you as 439 00:18:25,759 - > 00:18:29,759 authentic, you have zero chance of making impression and 440 00:18:29,759 - > 00:18:30,640 connecting with them. 441 00:18:30,880 - > 00:18:33,839 The second one is listen actively. 442 00:18:34,240 - > 00:18:37,039 Sadly, something I had to spend a lot of time working on because 443 00:18:37,039 - > 00:18:40,960 I was not very good at it initially, but really spending 444 00:18:40,960 - > 00:18:43,759 the time to hear our audience and understand them. 445 00:18:44,000 - > 00:18:48,640 The third one is um show empathy. 446 00:18:49,599 - > 00:18:50,640 That's an important one. 447 00:18:50,720 - > 00:18:53,839 And and when we're talking about being in a meeting and 448 00:18:53,839 - > 00:18:56,960 presenting, and this one really stuck out to me because, again, 449 00:18:57,039 - > 00:19:00,720 it was all about me and my presentation. 450 00:19:01,200 - > 00:19:04,160 It really should be more about our audience and understanding 451 00:19:04,160 - > 00:19:06,079 what they're wanting to get out of this meeting. 452 00:19:06,160 - > 00:19:10,000 Why are they spending time in the room or in the box with us, 453 00:19:10,079 - > 00:19:10,240 right? 454 00:19:10,319 - > 00:19:11,920 On a virtual meeting. 455 00:19:12,160 - > 00:19:17,680 Um, four is have a conversation because I've seen way too many 456 00:19:17,680 - > 00:19:20,559 solution presentations, demos, whatever you want to call them, 457 00:19:20,720 - > 00:19:22,400 where it's very much one way. 458 00:19:22,720 - > 00:19:25,839 The presenter talking at the audience and delivering all 459 00:19:25,839 - > 00:19:26,720 kinds of information. 460 00:19:26,960 - > 00:19:30,079 And today, with our gone calls, being able to go and look at 461 00:19:30,079 - > 00:19:32,559 that, you can scope that out pretty quickly. 462 00:19:32,799 - > 00:19:33,359 Yeah. 463 00:19:33,599 - > 00:19:37,680 Um, number five is practice humility. 464 00:19:37,839 - > 00:19:40,720 Uh, sadly, another behavior I had to spend a little time 465 00:19:40,720 - > 00:19:43,279 working on because again, I walked in the room, I'm the 466 00:19:43,279 - > 00:19:44,400 presenter, I'm the performer. 467 00:19:44,480 - > 00:19:45,279 This is gonna be amazing. 468 00:19:45,440 - > 00:19:46,240 Just wait. 469 00:19:46,480 - > 00:19:48,160 No, my audience is amazing. 470 00:19:48,240 - > 00:19:50,799 I really need to spend the time to learn and get to know them. 471 00:19:51,839 - > 00:19:55,839 Uh, six is tell a story, and tell a story is really about how 472 00:19:55,839 - > 00:19:59,039 we communicate, how we share information, speaking in plain 473 00:19:59,039 - > 00:20:01,680 language, using analogies and things like that. 474 00:20:01,839 - > 00:20:05,920 And the last one, uh, number seven, is leave an impression. 475 00:20:06,160 - > 00:20:08,960 And that came to me, and there's a very specific story. 476 00:20:09,119 - > 00:20:10,240 There's a very specific story. 477 00:20:10,319 - > 00:20:12,559 This is back in the day when we would travel, right? 478 00:20:12,720 - > 00:20:16,000 So we fly somewhere, and I'm carrying this suitcase-sized 479 00:20:16,000 - > 00:20:18,400 projector because not everybody had a projector in the 480 00:20:18,400 - > 00:20:19,200 conference room. 481 00:20:19,359 - > 00:20:21,920 Uh, so anyway, we get to the meeting and we set up, and it 482 00:20:21,920 - > 00:20:23,920 was one of those days that everything was on. 483 00:20:24,079 - > 00:20:27,039 The seller and I, we we knew our lines really, really well. 484 00:20:27,200 - > 00:20:30,160 We didn't step on each other, the audience was great and 485 00:20:30,160 - > 00:20:30,799 engaged. 486 00:20:30,960 - > 00:20:33,680 And we walked out of there and we were on cloud nine. 487 00:20:33,839 - > 00:20:36,720 And you know, you you tried not to high-five each other in the 488 00:20:36,720 - > 00:20:37,039 lobby. 489 00:20:37,119 - > 00:20:39,279 You you waited until you got to the parking lot, right? 490 00:20:39,440 - > 00:20:42,559 Yeah, but as we're going through the lobby, over there in the 491 00:20:42,559 - > 00:20:44,400 corner, we see our competitors. 492 00:20:44,480 - > 00:20:45,279 We we know these people. 493 00:20:45,359 - > 00:20:47,920 I know the sales engineer, Scott. 494 00:20:48,160 - > 00:20:49,920 Anyway, um, we we know them. 495 00:20:50,000 - > 00:20:52,720 And for whatever reason, that day, as we're we're walking out 496 00:20:52,720 - > 00:20:55,759 to the car, I'm thinking, wait a minute, Scott's gonna go in 497 00:20:55,759 - > 00:20:55,920 there. 498 00:20:56,000 - > 00:20:59,680 And he may think that he nailed it, and he did such a great job. 499 00:20:59,759 - > 00:21:03,279 And it really got me to thinking about what was the experience I 500 00:21:03,279 - > 00:21:04,160 just gave my audience. 501 00:21:04,319 - > 00:21:05,920 I was thrilled with my performance. 502 00:21:06,160 - > 00:21:07,920 What did my audience think? 503 00:21:08,480 - > 00:21:12,880 So it really got me to this idea of when we're showing something 504 00:21:12,880 - > 00:21:17,200 to our audiences, it's not the only one they're seeing, guys. 505 00:21:17,440 - > 00:21:21,440 Um, I read one study where, and this was a government study, so 506 00:21:21,440 - > 00:21:25,039 you can you know you can trust it, but the study said that they 507 00:21:25,039 - > 00:21:30,319 would see between eight and thirteens to make a decision. 508 00:21:30,559 - > 00:21:31,359 That's crazy now. 509 00:21:31,519 - > 00:21:33,039 Think about it, it is, it is. 510 00:21:33,200 - > 00:21:37,119 Think about being invited to 13 of these virtual calls. 511 00:21:37,359 - > 00:21:40,160 Yeah, and I I got to worry that they all started to sign the 512 00:21:40,160 - > 00:21:43,839 same where the salesperson jumps on, yucks it up a bit, you know, 513 00:21:44,000 - > 00:21:47,200 shows the NASCAR side with all the logos of the companies who 514 00:21:47,200 - > 00:21:49,759 love us and the magic quadrant that the analysts love and 515 00:21:49,759 - > 00:21:50,319 everything else. 516 00:21:50,480 - > 00:21:53,039 Then they hand it off to the sales engineer and they're like, 517 00:21:53,200 - > 00:21:53,839 Oh, this is cool. 518 00:21:53,920 - > 00:21:57,440 Now check this out, now check this out, now check 13 times. 519 00:21:58,000 - > 00:21:58,240 Yeah. 520 00:21:59,039 - > 00:21:59,519 Make a decision. 521 00:21:59,599 - > 00:22:02,640 So So that really got me thinking about what is the 522 00:22:02,640 - > 00:22:04,559 experience of delivering my audience. 523 00:22:04,799 - > 00:22:08,720 And what I really started focusing on was I want them to 524 00:22:08,720 - > 00:22:09,599 like me, right? 525 00:22:09,680 - > 00:22:13,039 So I'm going to spend time and energy just projecting that way. 526 00:22:13,200 - > 00:22:16,480 Much more difficult in a virtual sense than it was in person or 527 00:22:16,480 - > 00:22:17,279 it is in person. 528 00:22:18,000 - > 00:22:19,519 Sometimes we still get to do that. 529 00:22:20,079 - > 00:22:23,519 And the other thing I wanted to do was try to distill the 530 00:22:23,519 - > 00:22:26,640 message to something really, really simple that they could 531 00:22:26,640 - > 00:22:26,960 remember. 532 00:22:27,039 - > 00:22:29,200 Because if they can remember it, then they could share it with 533 00:22:29,200 - > 00:22:30,400 other people of the company. 534 00:22:30,640 - > 00:22:33,920 Because at the end of the day, after those 13 presentations, if 535 00:22:33,920 - > 00:22:37,279 they thought, well, I liked Rod and what he showed us seemed 536 00:22:37,279 - > 00:22:38,079 like it would work. 537 00:22:38,240 - > 00:22:40,799 I feel like that was enough to get me to the next stage in the 538 00:22:40,799 - > 00:22:41,599 evaluation. 539 00:22:41,920 - > 00:22:44,000 So that's what the impression is all about. 540 00:22:44,160 - > 00:22:46,319 So that's the seven timeless behaviors. 541 00:22:46,400 - > 00:22:49,039 And I think, you know, those were the ones that I needed to 542 00:22:49,039 - > 00:22:49,359 work on. 543 00:22:49,440 - > 00:22:51,920 And a lot of the people who I've run across during my time in 544 00:22:51,920 - > 00:22:54,559 pre-sales, they had maybe a couple of those that they could 545 00:22:54,559 - > 00:22:55,680 develop further as well. 546 00:22:55,839 - > 00:22:58,000 So that's what it came in to be. 547 00:22:58,640 - > 00:23:02,000 First of all, um, number one, crazy that you had to carry 548 00:23:02,000 - > 00:23:03,119 around a projector. 549 00:23:03,440 - > 00:23:04,799 Oh, there's lots of crazy times. 550 00:23:05,920 - > 00:23:08,400 Yeah, times have changed quite a lot. 551 00:23:08,640 - > 00:23:10,079 Two, I can believe that. 552 00:23:10,160 - > 00:23:12,240 I mean, I believe it because like obviously you said it's a 553 00:23:12,240 - > 00:23:16,319 trusted source, but that most people take 13 eight between 554 00:23:16,400 - > 00:23:16,559 eight. 555 00:23:16,799 - > 00:23:19,279 You said it's a 13 times to make a decision. 556 00:23:19,519 - > 00:23:21,920 I I mean, I personally don't have the patience for that. 557 00:23:22,079 - > 00:23:25,119 I would never go max I would go through is like three, and then 558 00:23:25,119 - > 00:23:26,240 I'm making the decision. 559 00:23:26,480 - > 00:23:28,000 So that's pretty wild. 560 00:23:28,240 - > 00:23:32,160 Um, and then I I I understand where you're coming from because 561 00:23:32,240 - > 00:23:35,519 and and I mean, obviously not on a pre-sale side, but on the 562 00:23:35,519 - > 00:23:38,480 candidate side, I tell everybody the same thing when they're 563 00:23:38,480 - > 00:23:40,799 interviewing with hiring companies. 564 00:23:40,960 - > 00:23:44,160 Um I always tell them, like, hey, it's not about like 565 00:23:44,480 - > 00:23:47,119 impressing and nailing the interview on the first step 566 00:23:47,200 - > 00:23:48,880 because they're not gonna offer you the job there. 567 00:23:48,960 - > 00:23:53,920 It you just need to do enough to is show or tell make them want 568 00:23:53,920 - > 00:23:55,759 to invite you to a second round, right? 569 00:23:55,839 - > 00:23:59,440 And the first thing is just smile and make them laugh and be 570 00:23:59,440 - > 00:24:00,880 likable and personable. 571 00:24:01,119 - > 00:24:03,519 If they remember you that way, they'll say, you know what, 572 00:24:03,680 - > 00:24:06,720 maybe RV wasn't like the best fit, but I really enjoyed my 573 00:24:06,720 - > 00:24:07,119 conversation. 574 00:24:07,279 - > 00:24:10,160 I want to at least have one more with her, and that's what it's 575 00:24:10,160 - > 00:24:10,559 all about. 576 00:24:10,720 - > 00:24:14,240 And you have these little wins to take you to the next stage. 577 00:24:14,559 - > 00:24:15,440 That's so good. 578 00:24:15,599 - > 00:24:19,039 I I I you know talk to a lot of people, and there's been a lot 579 00:24:19,039 - > 00:24:21,920 of people lately who are in that situation where they're looking 580 00:24:21,920 - > 00:24:23,200 for that next opportunity, right? 581 00:24:23,359 - > 00:24:26,960 Yeah, and and a piece of advice I I give them is very similar. 582 00:24:27,119 - > 00:24:31,039 It's like when you're on that interview, yeah, I know it's 583 00:24:31,119 - > 00:24:33,599 it's really, really difficult, but you've got to relax a little 584 00:24:33,599 - > 00:24:33,759 bit. 585 00:24:33,839 - > 00:24:36,480 And I know you're worried about you really need the job, you 586 00:24:36,480 - > 00:24:38,799 really need the money coming in, or whatever, you really, really 587 00:24:38,799 - > 00:24:39,920 want this opportunity. 588 00:24:40,160 - > 00:24:44,240 But as we allow those fears and that anxiety to manifest, we're 589 00:24:44,240 - > 00:24:45,519 no longer who we are. 590 00:24:45,599 - > 00:24:48,799 We're not coming across as our normal, charming selves. 591 00:24:49,039 - > 00:24:50,640 And that's what we have to project. 592 00:24:50,720 - > 00:24:55,359 I want to be me because if you're gonna hire me, hire me so 593 00:24:55,359 - > 00:24:57,519 I can go and be me at your company. 594 00:24:57,680 - > 00:24:59,599 I can't go there and be somebody else, right? 595 00:24:59,680 - > 00:25:01,839 I can't be way easier to be yourself. 596 00:25:02,000 - > 00:25:03,599 Yeah, it is, it is. 597 00:25:04,160 - > 00:25:05,359 You know, it's right. 598 00:25:05,759 - > 00:25:09,599 Yeah, it's funny you said that because I um I've been trying to 599 00:25:09,599 - > 00:25:11,039 take some like speaker training. 600 00:25:11,119 - > 00:25:13,279 You know, I I want to be a better communicator. 601 00:25:13,440 - > 00:25:16,319 There's just kind of like you said, I mean, you're never the 602 00:25:16,319 - > 00:25:18,480 best at your craft, there's always somebody doing it better 603 00:25:18,480 - > 00:25:20,160 or something better you can learn. 604 00:25:20,400 - > 00:25:24,799 And um a very veteran speaker told me if you're nervous, 605 00:25:24,880 - > 00:25:27,279 whether it's on stage in an interview, you know, about to 606 00:25:27,279 - > 00:25:31,279 present in a demo, make a joke, like make yourself laugh because 607 00:25:31,279 - > 00:25:34,960 that also relaxes you while it also relaxes the audience, you 608 00:25:34,960 - > 00:25:36,160 know, as they joke. 609 00:25:36,319 - > 00:25:38,799 So a little tip out there, you know, even if you're in an 610 00:25:38,799 - > 00:25:42,559 interview or going through, you know, a presentation or a demo, 611 00:25:42,799 - > 00:25:43,759 just make yourself laugh. 612 00:25:43,839 - > 00:25:47,039 You know, tell a joke to the audience that's relatable, and 613 00:25:47,039 - > 00:25:50,079 you will kind of see yourself relax a little bit and those 614 00:25:50,079 - > 00:25:52,079 kind of initial nerves go away. 615 00:25:52,240 - > 00:25:53,279 So very cool. 616 00:25:53,519 - > 00:25:54,240 Love that. 617 00:25:54,720 - > 00:25:57,440 Uh, Ron, you also have a four-pillar leadership 618 00:25:57,440 - > 00:25:57,839 framework. 619 00:25:57,920 - > 00:26:00,880 And correct me if I'm wrong, but it's authenticity, alignment, 620 00:26:01,039 - > 00:26:02,799 accountability, and achievement. 621 00:26:03,119 - > 00:26:06,400 Can you walk us through what that looks like in practice, 622 00:26:06,480 - > 00:26:07,359 like on a team level? 623 00:26:07,519 - > 00:26:08,880 How do you apply that? 624 00:26:10,319 - > 00:26:15,440 I think the first one is is self-explanatory in a way. 625 00:26:15,680 - > 00:26:18,559 And again, just always going back to authenticity, which is a 626 00:26:18,559 - > 00:26:21,200 big thing for me, and that is consistency. 627 00:26:21,519 - > 00:26:25,039 The people on my team, I want them to see the same Ron day in 628 00:26:25,039 - > 00:26:26,000 and day out. 629 00:26:26,240 - > 00:26:30,400 And uh, it may be a situation where there's a lot of stuff 630 00:26:30,400 - > 00:26:33,119 going on, there's a lot of anxiety going on. 631 00:26:33,440 - > 00:26:37,359 But when it's our one-to-one time, I need to be focused and 632 00:26:37,359 - > 00:26:40,240 centered and be really attentive and listening to this person, 633 00:26:40,319 - > 00:26:40,559 right? 634 00:26:40,640 - > 00:26:42,559 And that's how I want them to experience me. 635 00:26:42,720 - > 00:26:46,799 There'll always be stuff going on, there'll always be things 636 00:26:46,799 - > 00:26:48,319 we've got to address and work on. 637 00:26:48,480 - > 00:26:50,799 There'll always be the fire drills. 638 00:26:51,279 - > 00:26:55,599 But, you know, we've got to have this consistency over time that 639 00:26:55,599 - > 00:26:58,160 this is a vision, this is a place that we're moving to. 640 00:26:58,319 - > 00:27:01,039 We may not always get there as quickly as we would like, but 641 00:27:01,039 - > 00:27:02,160 that's the direction we're going. 642 00:27:02,319 - > 00:27:05,599 So there's that kind of steadiness and that kind of care 643 00:27:05,680 - > 00:27:07,279 because I do care for the people on the team. 644 00:27:07,359 - > 00:27:09,519 I want them to understand that, I want them to feel 645 00:27:09,519 - > 00:27:13,039 psychologically safe to share stuff and for us to have very 646 00:27:13,039 - > 00:27:14,720 candid and open conversations. 647 00:27:14,960 - > 00:27:18,079 So that is the whole authenticity piece of it right 648 00:27:18,240 - > 00:27:18,480 there. 649 00:27:18,720 - > 00:27:23,599 Then the second piece, alignment, is is it's amazing to 650 00:27:23,599 - > 00:27:28,559 me how there can be misalignment in companies. 651 00:27:28,640 - > 00:27:31,200 And this was something that I experienced really early on. 652 00:27:31,359 - > 00:27:34,160 I'd go and I'd talk to some of the biggest companies in the 653 00:27:34,160 - > 00:27:37,759 world with different solutions that we were representing, and 654 00:27:37,759 - > 00:27:40,960 we'd pull people together in a room again, back in the day when 655 00:27:40,960 - > 00:27:42,480 it was around a table in a room. 656 00:27:42,640 - > 00:27:44,720 We'd pull all these different people together from different 657 00:27:44,720 - > 00:27:47,279 departments, and one department would start talking, and the 658 00:27:47,279 - > 00:27:48,960 other department, no, that's not how we do it. 659 00:27:49,039 - > 00:27:50,480 It's like, wait a minute. 660 00:27:50,880 - > 00:27:51,119 What? 661 00:27:51,839 - > 00:27:55,200 Yeah, this is like a major soft drink brand, and they don't have 662 00:27:55,200 - > 00:27:56,240 their stuff together. 663 00:27:56,799 - > 00:27:58,160 They were misaligned. 664 00:27:58,400 - > 00:28:00,640 And and there's lots of different reasons for that. 665 00:28:00,799 - > 00:28:01,839 I don't have to worry about that. 666 00:28:02,000 - > 00:28:04,799 What I have to worry about is my team aligned. 667 00:28:04,880 - > 00:28:09,039 And what that means is do they understand what the overall 668 00:28:09,039 - > 00:28:13,200 mission is, what the overall goal of the team is for solution 669 00:28:13,200 - > 00:28:15,200 consulting is give demos, right? 670 00:28:15,440 - > 00:28:19,039 No, no, it's to convince our audience that our solution is 671 00:28:19,039 - > 00:28:19,680 the best for them. 672 00:28:19,759 - > 00:28:21,440 It's that technical win aspect. 673 00:28:21,519 - > 00:28:23,920 Again, another thing from Chris's book that I like. 674 00:28:24,240 - > 00:28:26,880 The technical win is what we should be driving to. 675 00:28:27,119 - > 00:28:29,440 It's it should be delivering X number of demos. 676 00:28:29,599 - > 00:28:33,119 No, that's a performance metric that can let us know what 677 00:28:33,119 - > 00:28:36,720 capacity is and what uh our available resources are. 678 00:28:36,960 - > 00:28:38,559 You got to be clear on the mission first. 679 00:28:38,720 - > 00:28:41,599 Okay, so once we're clear on that, then it's like, well, what 680 00:28:41,599 - > 00:28:44,319 are the what are the overall things that we're doing to 681 00:28:44,319 - > 00:28:45,039 achieve that? 682 00:28:45,200 - > 00:28:48,960 So, how are we delivering these solution presentations in order 683 00:28:48,960 - > 00:28:50,400 to achieve that technical win? 684 00:28:50,559 - > 00:28:53,279 So then we start getting into the different areas that we 685 00:28:53,279 - > 00:28:55,920 evaluate for the team and the different skills we want to 686 00:28:55,920 - > 00:28:56,240 build. 687 00:28:56,400 - > 00:28:59,920 And I have basically uh three buckets of skills. 688 00:29:00,240 - > 00:29:04,240 One is um what I call your technical chops. 689 00:29:04,559 - > 00:29:08,559 And again, that's I was really strong coming into the role from 690 00:29:08,559 - > 00:29:10,720 that, but it doesn't mean you've got to be a developer. 691 00:29:10,799 - > 00:29:13,680 It's your comfort with technology, it's your ability to 692 00:29:13,680 - > 00:29:14,319 pick up software. 693 00:29:14,480 - > 00:29:17,119 Some people have it, some people it's more of a struggle, right? 694 00:29:17,519 - > 00:29:20,799 The second bucket is what I refer to as business acumen. 695 00:29:21,279 - > 00:29:23,759 And that's just you know, understanding that B2C is 696 00:29:23,759 - > 00:29:24,960 different from B2B. 697 00:29:25,119 - > 00:29:27,839 It's understanding the environments that our customers 698 00:29:27,839 - > 00:29:31,039 are operating in, it's understanding their domain and 699 00:29:31,039 - > 00:29:33,759 their business language, that kind of stuff. 700 00:29:34,000 - > 00:29:38,799 And then the third one, what my book is about, is soft skills, 701 00:29:38,880 - > 00:29:40,799 the human skills, the relationship skills, whatever 702 00:29:40,799 - > 00:29:41,519 you want to call it. 703 00:29:41,839 - > 00:29:45,039 It's not just about, you know, building the relationships, it's 704 00:29:45,039 - > 00:29:48,160 about how you present, it's about the active listening, it's 705 00:29:48,160 - > 00:29:49,119 about all those things. 706 00:29:49,279 - > 00:29:55,119 And it's it's funny, RV, because we spend so little time and 707 00:29:55,119 - > 00:29:58,240 money and investment in that area. 708 00:29:58,400 - > 00:30:01,519 And I think that's the one that can have the absolute biggest 709 00:30:01,519 - > 00:30:03,440 impact on how our teams perform. 710 00:30:03,759 - > 00:30:06,880 So that's all about alignment, right? 711 00:30:07,359 - > 00:30:11,039 Uh, the third one, as you mentioned, is accountability. 712 00:30:11,279 - > 00:30:14,079 And accountability to me kind of goes hand in hand with 713 00:30:14,079 - > 00:30:14,720 authenticity. 714 00:30:14,799 - > 00:30:18,000 And it, I can I can sum it up with a very, very simple 715 00:30:18,000 - > 00:30:18,640 sentence. 716 00:30:19,039 - > 00:30:21,279 Do what you say and say what you do. 717 00:30:21,519 - > 00:30:21,759 Yes. 718 00:30:22,079 - > 00:30:22,240 Okay. 719 00:30:22,640 - > 00:30:26,880 So if you're an assignment, then you're accountable for getting 720 00:30:26,880 - > 00:30:27,599 that assignment done. 721 00:30:27,759 - > 00:30:30,079 And if it doesn't get done, I don't want to hear excuses, I 722 00:30:30,079 - > 00:30:31,519 don't want to hear reasons. 723 00:30:31,759 - > 00:30:33,440 I want the assignment done. 724 00:30:33,680 - > 00:30:37,440 So either you're the wrong person for the assignment or 725 00:30:37,440 - > 00:30:39,920 it's the wrong assignment for you, or you didn't have the 726 00:30:39,920 - > 00:30:40,480 resources. 727 00:30:40,720 - > 00:30:43,039 Let's figure it out so it doesn't happen again, right? 728 00:30:43,119 - > 00:30:44,880 And always learn from something. 729 00:30:45,039 - > 00:30:46,880 And then the last one is achievement. 730 00:30:46,960 - > 00:30:50,079 And achievement is kind of like the product of all those things. 731 00:30:50,400 - > 00:30:54,079 If we've got all the things in place and we're doing the things 732 00:30:54,079 - > 00:30:55,920 properly, then we'll get achievement. 733 00:30:56,000 - > 00:30:58,319 And the other thing about achievement is we should 734 00:30:58,319 - > 00:30:59,279 celebrate it. 735 00:30:59,519 - > 00:31:04,880 Um, most companies I've been at, when a deal closes, the AE sends 736 00:31:04,880 - > 00:31:06,559 out a nice little win report, right? 737 00:31:06,720 - > 00:31:08,160 Hey, we got this deal. 738 00:31:08,240 - > 00:31:10,319 Here's the amount, here's the team that helped. 739 00:31:10,400 - > 00:31:12,640 And they'll call it the sales engineer, they'll call it the 740 00:31:12,640 - > 00:31:15,200 services people, maybe they call it the BDR and some of the 741 00:31:15,200 - > 00:31:16,720 marketing folks that helped. 742 00:31:16,960 - > 00:31:20,799 And that's something that's not all companies do, but they 743 00:31:20,799 - > 00:31:24,240 really should do because we want to celebrate that together. 744 00:31:24,319 - > 00:31:26,880 It takes that team, it takes that village to get that win. 745 00:31:26,960 - > 00:31:28,720 Let's make sure everybody knows about it. 746 00:31:29,039 - > 00:31:30,480 Yeah, that is so good. 747 00:31:30,640 - > 00:31:34,160 And I feel like all of them, I mean, everybody has different 748 00:31:34,160 - > 00:31:35,680 aspects of those to work on. 749 00:31:35,759 - > 00:31:38,240 You know, some people can be really good at being aligned or 750 00:31:38,240 - > 00:31:40,240 communicating alignment or accountability. 751 00:31:40,319 - > 00:31:42,799 And others, you know, struggle a little bit with the achievement 752 00:31:42,799 - > 00:31:44,880 or the success or authenticity. 753 00:31:45,119 - > 00:31:48,720 I will say, at least personally, what I've seen may, and correct 754 00:31:48,720 - > 00:31:50,799 me if I'm wrong because you've probably been around a little 755 00:31:50,799 - > 00:31:53,839 bit longer than I have, but one of the biggest things that 756 00:31:53,839 - > 00:31:56,000 people struggle with is accountability. 757 00:31:56,079 - > 00:32:01,039 It's like just being accountable to, you know, taking taking 758 00:32:01,039 - > 00:32:03,680 accountability whether you did it right, you did it wrong, or 759 00:32:03,920 - > 00:32:06,160 either even on the leadership side, right? 760 00:32:06,319 - > 00:32:09,680 I feel like that's that's also something that leaders lack 761 00:32:09,680 - > 00:32:10,079 sometimes. 762 00:32:10,240 - > 00:32:13,200 It's they'll make a decision, they won't be accountable to 763 00:32:13,200 - > 00:32:15,599 that decision, or they'll blame it on others. 764 00:32:15,839 - > 00:32:18,880 And it definitely has a lot to do with like your upbringing, or 765 00:32:18,960 - > 00:32:21,599 you know, what what kind of leadership you've also been 766 00:32:21,599 - > 00:32:23,440 exposed to in your career. 767 00:32:23,680 - > 00:32:26,319 But what would you say to the accountability piece? 768 00:32:26,480 - > 00:32:28,799 Like how, first of all, how can I recognize it? 769 00:32:28,880 - > 00:32:33,039 Maybe you might have some tips like if I'm not holding myself 770 00:32:33,039 - > 00:32:36,319 accountable enough, or I have this thing I joke around with my 771 00:32:36,319 - > 00:32:39,359 teams called BCDing, uh, blaming, complaining, defending. 772 00:32:39,680 - > 00:32:42,400 So we always joke of like, hey, are you taking accountability or 773 00:32:42,400 - > 00:32:44,079 BCDing on these topics? 774 00:32:44,240 - > 00:32:47,440 Um, so you know, what what are some things maybe if you have 775 00:32:47,440 - > 00:32:47,680 any? 776 00:32:47,759 - > 00:32:51,519 And if not, that's okay, but that you feel like I uh I can 777 00:32:51,519 - > 00:32:54,319 implement myself either as a leader or as an individual 778 00:32:54,319 - > 00:32:56,240 contributor to take accountability. 779 00:32:56,400 - > 00:32:59,359 How do I look myself in the mirror and say, like, you know, 780 00:32:59,599 - > 00:33:00,880 be okay with that? 781 00:33:01,680 - > 00:33:06,319 I I think the biggest tip, if it is, if it is a tip on something 782 00:33:06,319 - > 00:33:09,839 like that, is you you don't have to be perfect all the time and 783 00:33:09,839 - > 00:33:11,920 you don't have to have the answers all the time. 784 00:33:12,079 - > 00:33:14,880 And if you fail at something, it's absolutely okay to say, 785 00:33:14,960 - > 00:33:16,240 yeah, you know what, that's on me. 786 00:33:16,319 - > 00:33:17,119 I screwed that up. 787 00:33:17,440 - > 00:33:18,720 I've got a great story. 788 00:33:18,799 - > 00:33:20,000 Um, at Percolate. 789 00:33:20,160 - > 00:33:23,119 Percolate was about 140 people, a little startup with uh 790 00:33:23,119 - > 00:33:24,000 marketing software. 791 00:33:24,160 - > 00:33:27,119 It was the orchestration of all different marketing content. 792 00:33:27,279 - > 00:33:29,440 There's a really cool UI that we had. 793 00:33:29,519 - > 00:33:32,160 The use case wasn't completely defined, but it was a lot of fun 794 00:33:32,160 - > 00:33:35,200 to be there, met a lot of incredible people there, had a 795 00:33:35,200 - > 00:33:36,400 really great team. 796 00:33:36,720 - > 00:33:42,160 And we decided we we had um a Slack channel that was set up 797 00:33:42,160 - > 00:33:44,640 where all the sellers could ask a question. 798 00:33:44,799 - > 00:33:47,680 And the sellers would put this this question in the Slack 799 00:33:47,680 - > 00:33:50,240 channel, and our team had responsibility for answering it. 800 00:33:50,480 - > 00:33:51,680 And it was great. 801 00:33:51,759 - > 00:33:54,400 And we could probably do that with AI today, but this is a few 802 00:33:54,400 - > 00:33:56,720 years ago, Sky, so it wasn't it wasn't quite there. 803 00:33:56,960 - > 00:34:00,160 But the sellers really loved it because they felt like just 804 00:34:00,160 - > 00:34:03,200 about any time, day or night, they could pop a question in 805 00:34:03,200 - > 00:34:04,079 there, get an answer. 806 00:34:04,240 - > 00:34:06,160 Maybe they're on a customer call, they needed something. 807 00:34:06,240 - > 00:34:08,480 It wasn't like, oh, let me get, you know, call you back or 808 00:34:08,480 - > 00:34:08,639 whatever. 809 00:34:08,719 - > 00:34:09,920 So they liked that a lot. 810 00:34:10,239 - > 00:34:14,159 I had this idea hey, let's turn the same thing on for the the 811 00:34:14,159 - > 00:34:15,360 customer success folks. 812 00:34:15,519 - > 00:34:19,679 Now, there were a lot more customer success folks than the 813 00:34:19,679 - > 00:34:20,239 sellers. 814 00:34:20,400 - > 00:34:22,880 Yeah, they had very different questions. 815 00:34:23,119 - > 00:34:26,079 We turned this on, it was immediately a mess. 816 00:34:26,239 - > 00:34:28,480 And it was a mess not because these were bad people or 817 00:34:28,480 - > 00:34:32,079 anything, but because the number of questions started swamping 818 00:34:32,079 - > 00:34:34,880 the channel, people kind of started losing the thread. 819 00:34:34,960 - > 00:34:37,360 It was hard to address all the questions. 820 00:34:37,760 - > 00:34:41,599 And after we did this for about four weeks, I turned it off and 821 00:34:41,599 - > 00:34:43,440 I went to the team and said, you know what? 822 00:34:43,599 - > 00:34:45,679 That was my idea, that's a bad idea. 823 00:34:45,840 - > 00:34:49,360 We'll do a different channel for maybe CSM, we'll handle that a 824 00:34:49,360 - > 00:34:49,920 different way. 825 00:34:50,159 - > 00:34:52,880 Yeah, I didn't have to go to my team and say, Well, it didn't 826 00:34:52,880 - > 00:34:54,159 work because you all did this or that. 827 00:34:54,320 - > 00:34:56,800 No, it's like tried something, right? 828 00:34:56,960 - > 00:35:01,519 Uh, there's a concept of failing fast, but it's okay to fail. 829 00:35:01,599 - > 00:35:05,920 If you're not failing anything, then you're not trying enough. 830 00:35:06,000 - > 00:35:07,679 And it's hard. 831 00:35:08,000 - > 00:35:08,639 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 832 00:35:08,719 - > 00:35:10,960 And and you see the tennis rackets on the back, and there's 833 00:35:10,960 - > 00:35:12,159 a tennis icon on my thing. 834 00:35:12,239 - > 00:35:14,480 I'm actually playing tennis this evening, so let me pull some 835 00:35:14,480 - > 00:35:15,039 tennis in. 836 00:35:15,199 - > 00:35:18,639 Yes, tennis, a point starts with the person serving. 837 00:35:18,719 - > 00:35:20,800 We got some rolling grows going on right now, right? 838 00:35:20,960 - > 00:35:23,039 And that's where you know you throw up the ball, you hit it 839 00:35:23,039 - > 00:35:26,239 over the head, you try to get it in the court, and there's a box 840 00:35:26,239 - > 00:35:28,159 on the other side that you've got to get it in. 841 00:35:28,320 - > 00:35:30,480 You've also got to clear the net, right? 842 00:35:30,880 - > 00:35:35,599 And if you mess up on the first attempt, you get a second serve. 843 00:35:35,760 - > 00:35:38,480 Now, if you mess up the second serve, that's called a double 844 00:35:38,480 - > 00:35:40,159 fault and you lose the point. 845 00:35:40,400 - > 00:35:43,440 Yeah, there are some players who never double fault. 846 00:35:43,519 - > 00:35:45,440 You think that's great. 847 00:35:45,760 - > 00:35:48,639 Well, maybe not, because a lot of the second serve is just a 848 00:35:48,639 - > 00:35:51,920 simple spinny serve that's going to be sure to be in, but then 849 00:35:51,920 - > 00:35:53,760 your opponent can just wail on it. 850 00:35:54,000 - > 00:35:58,000 So I actually think if you're not double faulting ever, you're 851 00:35:58,000 - > 00:36:00,000 not trying hard enough, you're not trying something different, 852 00:36:00,079 - > 00:36:01,840 you're not trying to win that extra point. 853 00:36:02,400 - > 00:36:06,880 So, again, I'll just fill all that down to it's okay to make a 854 00:36:06,880 - > 00:36:08,000 mistake from time to time. 855 00:36:08,159 - > 00:36:10,320 And if you do, just own it. 856 00:36:10,400 - > 00:36:13,920 It is so empowering to be able to say in a meeting, yep, that's 857 00:36:13,920 - > 00:36:14,159 on me. 858 00:36:14,320 - > 00:36:17,519 I'll and people look at you like you're nuts, but they're like, 859 00:36:18,159 - > 00:36:19,840 Wow, that's accountability. 860 00:36:20,079 - > 00:36:22,880 Um, and I can't remember the author right now, but there's a 861 00:36:22,880 - > 00:36:25,599 book by a former Navy SEAL called Extreme Ownership. 862 00:36:25,840 - > 00:36:28,639 Uh yes, uh Jocko something. 863 00:36:28,880 - > 00:36:30,480 Was that Jocko Willock? 864 00:36:30,800 - > 00:36:31,360 I think so. 865 00:36:31,519 - > 00:36:31,760 Yeah. 866 00:36:32,000 - > 00:36:32,239 Okay. 867 00:36:32,400 - > 00:36:34,639 But anyway, that's a really that's a really good one. 868 00:36:34,719 - > 00:36:37,920 I mean, you talk about listen, my decisions aren't going to 869 00:36:37,920 - > 00:36:39,760 mean someone lives or dies, right? 870 00:36:40,079 - > 00:36:40,880 Yeah, that is true. 871 00:36:42,559 - > 00:36:45,039 So, but I can own all my decisions. 872 00:36:45,440 - > 00:36:45,840 Yeah. 873 00:36:46,079 - > 00:36:49,039 No, I I love the concept and I live by that, fail fast. 874 00:36:49,119 - > 00:36:52,320 Like I said, I'm I'm a fast decision maker, which sometimes 875 00:36:52,320 - > 00:36:57,199 it's a problem because I took a decision too fast without 876 00:36:57,199 - > 00:36:58,159 thinking it through. 877 00:36:58,320 - > 00:37:01,199 Um, but for me, at least that also means I learned fast and 878 00:37:01,199 - > 00:37:04,000 now I can move on and I don't have to think, what if I did 879 00:37:04,000 - > 00:37:05,760 this or what if I didn't do it? 880 00:37:05,920 - > 00:37:06,800 Um, so I love that. 881 00:37:06,880 - > 00:37:08,079 Yeah, I think that's a great tip. 882 00:37:08,239 - > 00:37:10,880 And Ron, I'm gonna have the pleasure of seeing you in person 883 00:37:10,960 - > 00:37:13,119 uh at SolCon in 2026. 884 00:37:13,440 - > 00:37:14,079 Yes. 885 00:37:14,320 - > 00:37:17,920 Um, but I wanted to, without you giving all the secrets and 886 00:37:17,920 - > 00:37:21,440 everything you're gonna talk about, I wanted to ask you, 887 00:37:21,519 - > 00:37:25,280 because one of the topic you're talking about is pre-sales 888 00:37:25,440 - > 00:37:28,880 leaders as people pleasers who lack influence. 889 00:37:29,119 - > 00:37:29,440 Yes. 890 00:37:29,599 - > 00:37:31,199 That that's a really good topic. 891 00:37:31,280 - > 00:37:33,840 It is a little bit spicy, which I also like. 892 00:37:34,239 - > 00:37:37,599 Where where did like how did you uh even hear about that? 893 00:37:37,679 - > 00:37:39,280 You know, what does that pattern come from? 894 00:37:39,440 - > 00:37:42,880 How does it cost you as a leader or your team or the company 895 00:37:42,880 - > 00:37:43,360 itself? 896 00:37:43,519 - > 00:37:46,239 And maybe a couple of tips you can give us, you know, again, 897 00:37:46,320 - > 00:37:49,440 without giving away your entire presentation of how not to be 898 00:37:49,440 - > 00:37:50,480 that leader. 899 00:37:51,519 - > 00:37:52,559 Yeah, yeah. 900 00:37:52,719 - > 00:37:54,639 Uh yeah, how did this come about? 901 00:37:54,880 - > 00:37:57,519 It comes about because I see it way too often. 902 00:37:57,599 - > 00:38:00,559 I see really great, strong pre-sales leaders fall into this 903 00:38:00,559 - > 00:38:00,800 trap. 904 00:38:00,880 - > 00:38:01,760 And that's what it's called. 905 00:38:01,840 - > 00:38:03,280 It's called the pre-sales leadership trap. 906 00:38:03,360 - > 00:38:05,519 It's busy, light, and ignored. 907 00:38:05,679 - > 00:38:07,679 So wow, yeah, that's a good triangle. 908 00:38:07,920 - > 00:38:09,039 Oh, for one. 909 00:38:09,519 - > 00:38:12,719 I see a lot of us uh falling falling into that. 910 00:38:12,880 - > 00:38:14,719 And it stims from a couple of areas. 911 00:38:14,960 - > 00:38:19,440 And one of the areas is a lot of us who are good at pre-sales are 912 00:38:19,440 - > 00:38:22,320 really good for advocating for our solution, advocating for our 913 00:38:22,320 - > 00:38:25,440 customers, not so good at advocating for ourselves. 914 00:38:25,599 - > 00:38:31,599 And we are unable to really share what is our value to the 915 00:38:31,599 - > 00:38:33,119 organization, to our leadership. 916 00:38:33,280 - > 00:38:37,360 And and squarely on pre-sales leaders, they have a challenge 917 00:38:37,519 - > 00:38:41,119 in my uh experience of going to leadership, going to sales 918 00:38:41,119 - > 00:38:44,400 leadership, going to CRO and saying, here's what we're doing, 919 00:38:44,559 - > 00:38:44,800 right? 920 00:38:44,960 - > 00:38:47,679 We chase all these holy grills of different types of reports, 921 00:38:47,760 - > 00:38:51,360 you know, um acceleration of deals because of SE involvement, 922 00:38:51,519 - > 00:38:56,159 attach rates, everything else, but I've not really seen the uh 923 00:38:56,159 - > 00:39:00,079 proof in the pudding with real reports where people are showing 924 00:39:00,079 - > 00:39:00,320 this. 925 00:39:00,639 - > 00:39:04,239 So, so that would be one area where I think we could do a much 926 00:39:04,239 - > 00:39:09,840 better job is communicating our value in a way that's meaningful 927 00:39:09,840 - > 00:39:10,719 to the business. 928 00:39:10,960 - > 00:39:15,119 Now, that ties immediately into a second thing that I see a 929 00:39:15,119 - > 00:39:18,320 bunch of pre-sales leaders struggle with, and that is 930 00:39:18,320 - > 00:39:22,480 basically selling a business outcome to their leadership. 931 00:39:22,880 - > 00:39:26,159 They're very good at going in and doing discovery and helping 932 00:39:26,159 - > 00:39:29,679 their team, you know, analyze an opportunity with a prospect and 933 00:39:29,679 - > 00:39:32,400 coming up with a solution for that prospect and justifying it 934 00:39:32,400 - > 00:39:33,360 and everything else. 935 00:39:33,599 - > 00:39:36,400 But they stop doing that when they want to sell something 936 00:39:36,400 - > 00:39:36,960 internally. 937 00:39:37,119 - > 00:39:41,039 They fall back to some of our base SE instincts, which is this 938 00:39:41,039 - > 00:39:44,960 makes sense, we should do this without explaining where the 939 00:39:44,960 - > 00:39:48,000 savings would be, what's the ROI going to be, how are we going to 940 00:39:48,000 - > 00:39:49,119 improve efficiency? 941 00:39:49,280 - > 00:39:52,960 So that would be the second piece is we have to do the same 942 00:39:52,960 - > 00:39:57,360 kind of discovery on internal stakeholders and make that 943 00:39:57,360 - > 00:39:58,800 business argument. 944 00:39:59,360 - > 00:40:03,360 And I think if we get better at doing those things, then we can 945 00:40:03,360 - > 00:40:06,079 start to have more influence. 946 00:40:06,480 - > 00:40:10,079 And to me, I've I've got a little model about influence, 947 00:40:10,159 - > 00:40:13,519 but really it starts with the behaviors that you exhibit 948 00:40:13,679 - > 00:40:15,920 because that's how someone perceives you. 949 00:40:16,719 - > 00:40:19,840 And if they perceive you in a certain way, then you're going 950 00:40:19,840 - > 00:40:21,119 to develop trust for that person. 951 00:40:21,280 - > 00:40:23,840 This is obviously what happens with our customers, right? 952 00:40:24,000 - > 00:40:26,079 We become the trust advisor. 953 00:40:26,400 - > 00:40:29,679 That needs to happen internally with stakeholders and 954 00:40:29,679 - > 00:40:30,639 leadership. 955 00:40:30,960 - > 00:40:35,599 Once you've got that trust, then what you've got to do is 956 00:40:35,599 - > 00:40:39,440 convince the receiver of that trust that you can deliver a 957 00:40:39,440 - > 00:40:40,079 value. 958 00:40:40,400 - > 00:40:43,599 And that value can be many different things, right? 959 00:40:43,760 - > 00:40:48,079 For me, in my current role, the value is the experience of 960 00:40:48,079 - > 00:40:50,960 industry that I bring to our company as we're looking to make 961 00:40:50,960 - > 00:40:53,039 some transformational changes. 962 00:40:53,199 - > 00:40:56,960 Um, for our customers, it's how our software is going to deliver 963 00:40:56,960 - > 00:40:57,679 an outcome to them. 964 00:40:57,760 - > 00:40:58,800 That's the value. 965 00:40:59,039 - > 00:41:04,320 But if you got trust, if they, the receiver, perceivue, then 966 00:41:04,320 - > 00:41:06,159 you're in position to have influence. 967 00:41:06,320 - > 00:41:07,840 But you've got to kind of work to that. 968 00:41:07,920 - > 00:41:09,760 You can't you can't shortcut any of it. 969 00:41:09,920 - > 00:41:11,119 So that's what we're gonna do. 970 00:41:11,199 - > 00:41:12,480 It's it's gonna be a workshop. 971 00:41:12,639 - > 00:41:17,039 We're actually gonna dig in and have these leaders share some 972 00:41:17,360 - > 00:41:21,360 real experiences and give them a way to reframe it where they 973 00:41:21,360 - > 00:41:24,079 could move more into an influential space. 974 00:41:24,320 - > 00:41:25,920 So that's the goal, anyway. 975 00:41:26,239 - > 00:41:26,880 I love that. 976 00:41:27,039 - > 00:41:30,159 And I think honestly, sometimes I feel like you can't 977 00:41:30,159 - > 00:41:34,239 necessarily blame leaders in the space because most of the time 978 00:41:34,320 - > 00:41:38,159 they were, they became leaders without necessarily like 979 00:41:38,480 - > 00:41:41,039 learning it, you know, they were just kind of thrown into it. 980 00:41:41,119 - > 00:41:44,719 Maybe they were a great IC, and the company was like, hey, you'd 981 00:41:44,719 - > 00:41:45,280 be a great leader. 982 00:41:45,440 - > 00:41:46,639 And you're like, what do you mean? 983 00:41:46,719 - > 00:41:48,639 Like I've never led anybody before. 984 00:41:48,800 - > 00:41:51,599 So sometimes those issues become because of that. 985 00:41:51,760 - > 00:41:53,199 And again, that's normal. 986 00:41:53,360 - > 00:41:55,199 We're all human beings that we need to learn. 987 00:41:55,280 - > 00:41:57,280 Nothing is like given to us. 988 00:41:57,519 - > 00:42:00,880 And um, I love that you're doing this as a workshop as well. 989 00:42:01,119 - > 00:42:03,840 With that being said, I feel like this also leads to another 990 00:42:03,840 - > 00:42:07,840 problem is especially as if you were a high performer before as 991 00:42:07,840 - > 00:42:11,519 a leader, you might do this the wrong way and like jump in and 992 00:42:11,519 - > 00:42:14,559 try to save deals instead of trying to develop your team. 993 00:42:14,800 - > 00:42:17,760 Is there any tips or anything that you've learned throughout 994 00:42:17,760 - > 00:42:19,920 your career on how to break that habit? 995 00:42:20,239 - > 00:42:20,639 Oh, yeah. 996 00:42:20,719 - > 00:42:22,880 Yeah, because I did exactly that. 997 00:42:23,119 - > 00:42:27,519 So, so my story was I was at high performing SE and I had the 998 00:42:27,519 - > 00:42:28,639 opportunity to move into leadership. 999 00:42:28,719 - > 00:42:32,000 And I was very fortunate, Arby, that my first leadership 1000 00:42:32,000 - > 00:42:33,440 opportunity was with IBM. 1001 00:42:33,519 - > 00:42:36,719 And the first thing they did was they sent me off to uh basic 1002 00:42:36,719 - > 00:42:38,079 blue for new leaders. 1003 00:42:38,400 - > 00:42:41,519 And that was that was such a godsend, and it was really 1004 00:42:41,519 - > 00:42:44,159 transformational for transformational for me in my 1005 00:42:44,159 - > 00:42:44,480 career. 1006 00:42:44,559 - > 00:42:46,320 So I really appreciated that. 1007 00:42:46,480 - > 00:42:50,960 Um, but you're right, we we take the great individual 1008 00:42:50,960 - > 00:42:54,239 contributor, and okay, now you're running the team. 1009 00:42:54,559 - > 00:42:58,159 And without that training, without any support, without a 1010 00:42:58,159 - > 00:43:01,840 lot of help, you fall into that trap of, okay, now I'm just 1011 00:43:01,840 - > 00:43:04,960 super SE and I'm inserting myself into every deal. 1012 00:43:05,119 - > 00:43:08,559 And that is such a dangerous trap because, well, number one, 1013 00:43:08,639 - > 00:43:09,840 you're gonna exhaust yourself. 1014 00:43:09,920 - > 00:43:11,599 You you can't scale that way. 1015 00:43:11,840 - > 00:43:16,159 But number two is you're limiting the growth potential of 1016 00:43:16,159 - > 00:43:16,880 your team. 1017 00:43:17,119 - > 00:43:20,320 You're not giving them those opportunities to fail quickly or 1018 00:43:20,320 - > 00:43:21,840 to learn or to develop. 1019 00:43:22,079 - > 00:43:23,679 So that's a real disservice. 1020 00:43:23,840 - > 00:43:29,119 So the biggest tip is as a new leader, you've got to get super 1021 00:43:29,119 - > 00:43:31,599 comfortable with letting go of stuff. 1022 00:43:31,840 - > 00:43:32,960 And that is scary. 1023 00:43:33,119 - > 00:43:37,199 That is scary because most great pre-sales people who are great 1024 00:43:37,199 - > 00:43:41,199 individual contributors who I've seen, they're very aware of 1025 00:43:41,199 - > 00:43:42,079 their work product. 1026 00:43:42,239 - > 00:43:44,239 They're very proud of their work product. 1027 00:43:44,880 - > 00:43:47,760 They're very cognizant of their reputation, right? 1028 00:43:48,079 - > 00:43:52,320 So, this idea of I'm gonna go let Joe do the demo, and I'm not 1029 00:43:52,320 - > 00:43:54,880 gonna have any influence over that can be super scary. 1030 00:43:54,960 - > 00:43:56,800 Well, I would do it this way, and he should do. 1031 00:43:57,280 - > 00:43:59,039 You got to change that thinking. 1032 00:43:59,199 - > 00:44:02,639 You're you're Job is no longer being the super SE helping 1033 00:44:02,639 - > 00:44:03,119 everybody. 1034 00:44:03,360 - > 00:44:07,679 Your job is to develop that performance of your team and to 1035 00:44:07,679 - > 00:44:12,559 understand they're not going to perform the same way as you and 1036 00:44:12,559 - > 00:44:13,519 be comfortable with that. 1037 00:44:13,599 - > 00:44:15,039 And that is so tough. 1038 00:44:15,199 - > 00:44:17,519 And that's that's why I think you need these models. 1039 00:44:17,679 - > 00:44:20,719 That's why I think you need these buckets because you can't 1040 00:44:20,719 - > 00:44:23,360 say, hey, Arve, just do the demo like me. 1041 00:44:23,840 - > 00:44:25,440 That's that's not gonna work. 1042 00:44:25,599 - > 00:44:28,480 You've got to do the demo like you, and you've got to bring 1043 00:44:28,480 - > 00:44:30,480 your own charm and everything to it. 1044 00:44:30,800 - > 00:44:33,840 But if we've got some commonalities with these 1045 00:44:33,840 - > 00:44:37,280 buckets, I can say, Arvey, you are so good with the technical 1046 00:44:37,280 - > 00:44:37,519 stuff. 1047 00:44:37,679 - > 00:44:40,159 What we got to do is work on the business acumen a bit. 1048 00:44:40,320 - > 00:44:42,800 What I'd like you to do is go study this industry a little 1049 00:44:42,800 - > 00:44:42,960 bit. 1050 00:44:43,039 - > 00:44:45,519 Let's find a trade show for you to go to to pick up some more 1051 00:44:45,519 - > 00:44:47,039 industry lingo, right? 1052 00:44:47,679 - > 00:44:50,559 Because I'm using these buckets as a way to kind of determine 1053 00:44:50,559 - > 00:44:52,079 where to upskill somebody. 1054 00:44:52,239 - > 00:44:55,840 And again, that's something that we can have an objective 1055 00:44:55,840 - > 00:44:59,760 conversation about rather than subjectively, well, the AE does 1056 00:44:59,840 - > 00:45:01,119 like the way you did that demo. 1057 00:45:01,360 - > 00:45:03,280 That tells nobody anything. 1058 00:45:03,519 - > 00:45:03,679 Yeah. 1059 00:45:03,840 - > 00:45:07,920 That's actually you know, it's funny that you said it that way. 1060 00:45:08,000 - > 00:45:11,760 Um, actually, last week I had Diana on my show as well. 1061 00:45:11,920 - > 00:45:14,559 And she said the mistake she made in the beginning was trying 1062 00:45:14,559 - > 00:45:15,679 to make clones of herself. 1063 00:45:15,760 - > 00:45:19,119 And I think that's exactly what you were saying is trying to 1064 00:45:19,119 - > 00:45:21,760 have people, you know, do it exactly how I would do it. 1065 00:45:22,000 - > 00:45:25,199 And it's true because I've made that mistake too. 1066 00:45:25,360 - > 00:45:28,719 Um, and I'll just give a tip that helped me is that was given 1067 00:45:28,719 - > 00:45:28,960 to me. 1068 00:45:29,039 - > 00:45:31,280 Obviously, I didn't just go out there and invent it. 1069 00:45:31,519 - > 00:45:34,960 But instead of giving answers, when I get questions of like, 1070 00:45:35,039 - > 00:45:36,400 hey, RV, how do I do this? 1071 00:45:36,480 - > 00:45:38,320 Or hey, how do I whatever? 1072 00:45:38,639 - > 00:45:41,599 Instead of giving answers, you ask a question back. 1073 00:45:41,679 - > 00:45:43,280 You know, okay, what would you do? 1074 00:45:43,440 - > 00:45:44,480 Oh, here's the problem. 1075 00:45:44,639 - > 00:45:45,840 Okay, what are your ideas? 1076 00:45:46,000 - > 00:45:47,519 How did you try to solve it? 1077 00:45:47,760 - > 00:45:50,960 Because there's been times where I know how it should be solved 1078 00:45:50,960 - > 00:45:54,000 my way, but then I've got an answer of something I didn't 1079 00:45:54,000 - > 00:45:55,039 even think to solve it that way. 1080 00:45:55,119 - > 00:45:55,920 And I'm like, you know what? 1081 00:45:56,000 - > 00:45:57,760 That's actually a better idea than mine. 1082 00:45:57,840 - > 00:45:59,280 So go ahead and solve it. 1083 00:45:59,519 - > 00:46:03,920 And sometimes you just have to let people fail in a way, even 1084 00:46:03,920 - > 00:46:07,199 knowing that the answer might be wrong for them to learn and 1085 00:46:07,199 - > 00:46:10,480 figure out, okay, maybe you know I need to do it a different way. 1086 00:46:10,639 - > 00:46:13,840 Um, how do you feel about like failing and letting your team 1087 00:46:13,840 - > 00:46:14,159 fail? 1088 00:46:14,239 - > 00:46:15,440 Because I've heard it two ways. 1089 00:46:15,519 - > 00:46:18,639 It's like, one is like if I know that your team will, if I know 1090 00:46:18,639 - > 00:46:20,800 that that's the wrong answer, but I'm gonna let you fail 1091 00:46:20,800 - > 00:46:23,440 anyway, that's costing, you know, time and money to the 1092 00:46:23,440 - > 00:46:24,000 company. 1093 00:46:24,239 - > 00:46:27,360 But on the other side, it's like, okay, how do I learn if I 1094 00:46:27,360 - > 00:46:27,840 can't fail? 1095 00:46:27,920 - > 00:46:30,079 Because you can't just learn from having everything, you 1096 00:46:30,079 - > 00:46:33,360 know, either given to you or going wonderfully, as we just 1097 00:46:33,360 - > 00:46:34,159 established. 1098 00:46:35,119 - > 00:46:38,239 I think it's that fine balance, and you've got to kind of weigh 1099 00:46:38,239 - > 00:46:39,599 the opportunity cost as well. 1100 00:46:39,760 - > 00:46:40,000 Yeah. 1101 00:46:40,480 - > 00:46:43,199 Because if it's a five million dollar opportunity that your 1102 00:46:43,199 - > 00:46:46,719 company is planning for and you let the junior SE do it without 1103 00:46:46,719 - > 00:46:49,199 a dry run, well, that's just stupid. 1104 00:46:49,360 - > 00:46:50,559 That's not well. 1105 00:46:50,639 - > 00:46:51,920 I'm letting them fail fast. 1106 00:46:52,000 - > 00:46:53,360 No, you're failing fast, right? 1107 00:46:54,559 - > 00:46:56,960 Um, no, I I think you've got to measure a lot. 1108 00:46:57,280 - > 00:47:00,480 If that was the situation for whatever reason, what I start 1109 00:47:00,480 - > 00:47:03,440 doing is looking at a way of mitigating the risk, right? 1110 00:47:03,840 - > 00:47:07,199 So one way of mitigating the risk is the aforementioned dry 1111 00:47:07,199 - > 00:47:07,440 run. 1112 00:47:07,599 - > 00:47:09,119 Hey, no, let's actually listen. 1113 00:47:09,199 - > 00:47:10,719 This is a big opportunity, guys. 1114 00:47:10,880 - > 00:47:11,760 Let's sit down. 1115 00:47:11,840 - > 00:47:13,360 We're gonna spend the full hour. 1116 00:47:13,440 - > 00:47:15,039 We're gonna have the AE on the call. 1117 00:47:15,119 - > 00:47:17,440 He's gonna play like he's the customer, and we're actually 1118 00:47:17,440 - > 00:47:20,079 gonna walk through click by click, step by step. 1119 00:47:20,320 - > 00:47:21,599 Oh, you're not prepared to do that? 1120 00:47:21,679 - > 00:47:22,159 No, no, no. 1121 00:47:22,239 - > 00:47:23,280 It's a five million opportunity. 1122 00:47:23,360 - > 00:47:23,840 We're gonna do that. 1123 00:47:24,079 - > 00:47:28,000 Yeah, um, another way I can mitigate the risk is okay, 1124 00:47:28,159 - > 00:47:32,320 junior SE, you're gonna lead this call, and senior SE, you're 1125 00:47:32,320 - > 00:47:33,599 gonna ride shotgun. 1126 00:47:33,840 - > 00:47:37,039 And I'm gonna have a very direct conversation with the senior SE. 1127 00:47:37,360 - > 00:47:41,199 Do not rescue them, but don't let them sink us. 1128 00:47:41,360 - > 00:47:41,679 Right. 1129 00:47:42,159 - > 00:47:44,159 Yeah, and there's there's language. 1130 00:47:44,400 - > 00:47:48,159 I think what you meant to say is let's consider it from a 1131 00:47:48,159 - > 00:47:48,960 different perspective. 1132 00:47:49,119 - > 00:47:52,880 There's ways of making that a soft transition, right? 1133 00:47:52,960 - > 00:47:53,119 Right. 1134 00:47:53,360 - > 00:47:58,079 And then we also tell the junior se if you get nervous, just ask 1135 00:47:58,079 - > 00:47:59,840 the senior SE, hey, what do you think? 1136 00:48:00,079 - > 00:48:02,400 And that gives you an easy opportunity to jump in. 1137 00:48:02,559 - > 00:48:04,480 So that's what that's the way I think about it. 1138 00:48:04,559 - > 00:48:07,519 I think about how do I mitigate the risk of something bad 1139 00:48:07,519 - > 00:48:11,840 happening, but still allow this person that growth opportunity. 1140 00:48:12,320 - > 00:48:15,360 Um, and I want to give a shout out to a woman who I admire 1141 00:48:15,440 - > 00:48:15,679 greatly. 1142 00:48:15,760 - > 00:48:16,960 Her name is Cleo Clark. 1143 00:48:17,039 - > 00:48:20,480 She was my leader at IBM, and we were having a one-to-one at one 1144 00:48:20,480 - > 00:48:21,840 point, and she asked me a question. 1145 00:48:22,000 - > 00:48:24,480 This is shortly after I got my first leadership position. 1146 00:48:24,719 - > 00:48:28,239 She says, Are you leading your team or are you rescuing your 1147 00:48:28,239 - > 00:48:28,880 team? 1148 00:48:29,199 - > 00:48:30,480 And I was rescuing them. 1149 00:48:30,559 - > 00:48:32,719 I'm jumping in, I'm trying to insert myself in everything, 1150 00:48:32,800 - > 00:48:33,039 right? 1151 00:48:33,280 - > 00:48:35,519 And I said, Well, what do you mean? 1152 00:48:35,679 - > 00:48:38,320 Explain more about you know, leaning. 1153 00:48:38,480 - > 00:48:41,119 She says, Well, you need to understand what each of them 1154 00:48:41,119 - > 00:48:41,360 need. 1155 00:48:41,519 - > 00:48:43,360 And she did something really smart for me. 1156 00:48:43,440 - > 00:48:46,400 She unlocked it as discovery, right? 1157 00:48:46,639 - > 00:48:47,840 I know how to do discovery. 1158 00:48:47,920 - > 00:48:49,199 I'm really good at discovery. 1159 00:48:49,519 - > 00:48:52,239 So you're you're what what triggered this? 1160 00:48:52,320 - > 00:48:54,480 I mean, was you were talking about, you know, instead of 1161 00:48:54,480 - > 00:48:56,239 giving the answer, ask a question. 1162 00:48:56,480 - > 00:48:57,679 That's discovery. 1163 00:48:58,000 - > 00:49:00,079 And so we get off a call with someone. 1164 00:49:00,239 - > 00:49:03,440 The first question I love to ask them is, Well, how did that feel 1165 00:49:03,440 - > 00:49:04,000 for you? 1166 00:49:04,239 - > 00:49:06,800 And that just gets them talking about, you know, how they kind 1167 00:49:06,800 - > 00:49:08,960 of walk through the process and gives me a perfect opportunity 1168 00:49:08,960 - > 00:49:11,920 to say, well, what did you notice when you said that and 1169 00:49:11,920 - > 00:49:12,880 the customer did this? 1170 00:49:13,039 - > 00:49:13,199 Right. 1171 00:49:13,360 - > 00:49:15,440 And it starts to open up those opportunities. 1172 00:49:15,599 - > 00:49:16,960 So love that you said that. 1173 00:49:17,039 - > 00:49:19,840 And again, just shout out to Cleo because that was something 1174 00:49:19,840 - > 00:49:22,159 that really kind of changed my direction on how I was 1175 00:49:22,239 - > 00:49:23,599 approaching what I was doing. 1176 00:49:23,920 - > 00:49:24,559 Yeah, yeah. 1177 00:49:24,719 - > 00:49:25,119 So good. 1178 00:49:25,280 - > 00:49:26,159 And it is true. 1179 00:49:26,320 - > 00:49:29,760 It's definitely got away the opportunity cost and just see, 1180 00:49:29,840 - > 00:49:33,840 you know, like you said, having somebody more senior and gently 1181 00:49:34,159 - > 00:49:37,679 having them go in as needed, or maybe it's not needed because we 1182 00:49:37,679 - > 00:49:38,719 did such a great turnaround. 1183 00:49:38,960 - > 00:49:39,440 Love that. 1184 00:49:39,599 - > 00:49:40,079 Yeah. 1185 00:49:40,320 - > 00:49:43,920 Um, I wanted to jump onto our rapid fire questions, and they 1186 00:49:43,920 - > 00:49:47,440 don't have to be fast answers, they can be uh, you know, long 1187 00:49:47,440 - > 00:49:47,760 answers. 1188 00:49:47,920 - > 00:49:48,400 Take your time. 1189 00:49:48,480 - > 00:49:51,840 But what is one tool that you can't live without right now? 1190 00:49:52,239 - > 00:49:53,679 Chat GPT. 1191 00:49:54,480 - > 00:49:54,800 Okay. 1192 00:49:55,119 - > 00:49:58,880 Is there anything specific that you use it when it comes to 1193 00:49:58,880 - > 00:50:01,679 pre-sales that maybe is useful for other people to implement 1194 00:50:01,679 - > 00:50:02,320 right now? 1195 00:50:03,039 - > 00:50:05,679 Um, I use it as a sounding board. 1196 00:50:05,840 - > 00:50:10,239 And what's interesting for me is at first uh chat was a bit too 1197 00:50:10,239 - > 00:50:11,760 optimistic for my taste. 1198 00:50:12,159 - > 00:50:15,920 I I've been using it for uh three or four years, a while. 1199 00:50:16,159 - > 00:50:19,039 And and you know, oh, that's a great idea, Ron. 1200 00:50:19,280 - > 00:50:20,480 And it's like, yeah. 1201 00:50:20,719 - > 00:50:27,199 So I actually uh developed a GPT and I asked it to pressure test 1202 00:50:27,199 - > 00:50:30,800 ideas and and you know argue against the blind spots and 1203 00:50:30,800 - > 00:50:31,360 things like that. 1204 00:50:31,519 - > 00:50:34,960 I really, really like that one now because it's not just oh, 1205 00:50:35,039 - > 00:50:36,000 that's touch a great idea. 1206 00:50:36,159 - > 00:50:37,519 It's like that's not bad. 1207 00:50:37,679 - > 00:50:39,440 Here's some things you need to consider. 1208 00:50:39,679 - > 00:50:44,400 So just as um a sounding board to work out ideas and thoughts. 1209 00:50:44,639 - > 00:50:46,800 Um, yeah, I really like it. 1210 00:50:47,039 - > 00:50:47,679 I love that. 1211 00:50:47,840 - > 00:50:49,760 I I uh tell it to rip it apart. 1212 00:50:49,920 - > 00:50:52,400 I'm like, hey, here's this, rip it apart for me. 1213 00:50:52,559 - > 00:50:55,440 What's not what's you know, what's happening, you know, what 1214 00:50:55,440 - > 00:50:56,639 am I not thinking about? 1215 00:50:56,880 - > 00:50:57,519 So I love that. 1216 00:50:57,679 - > 00:50:58,559 Yeah, and I agree. 1217 00:50:58,639 - > 00:51:01,519 I think it can be optimistic at times, so you have to train it 1218 00:51:01,519 - > 00:51:01,920 to not. 1219 00:51:02,159 - > 00:51:03,039 Yes, yes. 1220 00:51:03,199 - > 00:51:07,280 Um, what is your biggest growth lover for SaaS in 2026? 1221 00:51:08,559 - > 00:51:10,719 Um, this is interesting. 1222 00:51:10,880 - > 00:51:12,800 It's the human element, it's not AI. 1223 00:51:13,119 - > 00:51:16,880 AI to me is making the human aspect of it, the connection 1224 00:51:16,880 - > 00:51:19,199 aspect of it that much more important. 1225 00:51:19,840 - > 00:51:25,280 Um, because we all get AI slop in our inboxes and our feed 1226 00:51:25,440 - > 00:51:26,159 constantly. 1227 00:51:26,400 - > 00:51:30,400 I think a lot of us are educated enough now to know almost 1228 00:51:30,400 - > 00:51:33,039 immediately when we see something that was AI generated. 1229 00:51:33,199 - > 00:51:35,360 And when I see, I don't read it. 1230 00:51:35,440 - > 00:51:37,039 I'm not interested in it. 1231 00:51:37,360 - > 00:51:41,440 So the realness, the rawness, the human piece, I think that's 1232 00:51:41,440 - > 00:51:43,039 the big lever for this year. 1233 00:51:43,280 - > 00:51:47,440 As we get to more in-person meetings, as we get more, you 1234 00:51:47,440 - > 00:51:50,639 know, face-to-face stuff, I think that's going to be a big 1235 00:51:50,639 - > 00:51:51,519 lever for us. 1236 00:51:51,840 - > 00:51:53,119 Yeah, I totally agree. 1237 00:51:53,199 - > 00:51:56,639 I think it's um, I at least part internally, I call it scaling 1238 00:51:56,639 - > 00:51:57,519 the unscalable. 1239 00:51:57,599 - > 00:51:58,320 How can we scale? 1240 00:51:58,559 - > 00:52:01,599 Well, she can't technically scale it if it's unscalable, but 1241 00:52:01,599 - > 00:52:04,159 the human element is becoming more of and more of a 1242 00:52:04,159 - > 00:52:07,840 distinction, which is uh crazy to think about in a world of AI, 1243 00:52:07,920 - > 00:52:10,000 how things have changed because we wanted more automation, now 1244 00:52:10,079 - > 00:52:10,880 we have too much of it. 1245 00:52:10,960 - > 00:52:14,079 So now how do we get back to like a balance? 1246 00:52:14,559 - > 00:52:18,400 And and I wonder too, I mean, we've got a generation that is 1247 00:52:18,400 - > 00:52:22,639 digital native, and a lot of these people, I mean, I have my 1248 00:52:22,639 - > 00:52:27,039 phone on me all the time, but if we've got our phones on us all 1249 00:52:27,039 - > 00:52:31,119 the time, has that impacted our human connection ability? 1250 00:52:31,280 - > 00:52:32,960 Is that an area that we're struggling with? 1251 00:52:33,119 - > 00:52:33,599 I I don't know. 1252 00:52:33,679 - > 00:52:35,360 I think it's a really interesting question. 1253 00:52:35,679 - > 00:52:36,960 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 1254 00:52:37,199 - > 00:52:39,679 Is there one belief that you have that most people would 1255 00:52:39,679 - > 00:52:40,800 disagree with? 1256 00:52:42,239 - > 00:52:46,000 Um I don't know if most people would disagree with it, but we 1257 00:52:46,000 - > 00:52:49,199 put way too much importance on the demo. 1258 00:52:49,599 - > 00:52:55,519 Um the demo to me is one of a dozen tools that you've got in a 1259 00:52:55,599 - > 00:52:58,880 uh presentation when you're trying to convince someone. 1260 00:52:59,119 - > 00:53:02,079 And uh it's just the easiest tool to reach for. 1261 00:53:02,239 - > 00:53:04,559 What they say, if if the only tool you have is a hammer, then 1262 00:53:04,559 - > 00:53:06,400 every every problem looks like a nail. 1263 00:53:06,639 - > 00:53:10,800 If if an AE is the only thing we've got is the demo, then 1264 00:53:10,800 - > 00:53:13,760 you've got a very limited approach to talking to your 1265 00:53:13,760 - > 00:53:14,239 customers. 1266 00:53:14,400 - > 00:53:18,239 So yeah, demo importance is much less than people think. 1267 00:53:18,880 - > 00:53:19,440 Love that. 1268 00:53:19,599 - > 00:53:20,239 That's great. 1269 00:53:20,400 - > 00:53:24,559 I wanted to end our our time here with with the hiring 1270 00:53:24,559 - > 00:53:25,119 section. 1271 00:53:25,360 - > 00:53:28,880 Um, in terms of like when you obviously you've been a leader 1272 00:53:28,880 - > 00:53:29,599 for a while. 1273 00:53:29,840 - > 00:53:32,800 Is there any things that you look for when it comes to when 1274 00:53:32,800 - > 00:53:34,000 you're hiring yourself? 1275 00:53:34,159 - > 00:53:37,840 Maybe two to three skill set that is super important to you 1276 00:53:37,920 - > 00:53:39,440 and you know you can teach the rest. 1277 00:53:39,760 - > 00:53:40,239 Absolutely. 1278 00:53:40,320 - > 00:53:41,280 Yeah, absolutely. 1279 00:53:41,440 - > 00:53:43,599 I look for technical curiosity. 1280 00:53:43,760 - > 00:53:46,400 And again, it's just you've picked up software over time, 1281 00:53:46,559 - > 00:53:48,239 you're interested in software, that kind of stuff, right? 1282 00:53:48,320 - > 00:53:50,000 Again, you don't have to be a developer, you don't have to 1283 00:53:50,000 - > 00:53:51,519 know Python or any of that kind of stuff. 1284 00:53:51,679 - > 00:53:55,599 And I really think that's an aspect where AI has made that a 1285 00:53:55,599 - > 00:53:57,360 lot lower entry level, right? 1286 00:53:57,519 - > 00:54:00,320 Because if someone had to write up some Python code for an 1287 00:54:00,320 - > 00:54:03,039 application, they could have chat do it, and how would we 1288 00:54:03,039 - > 00:54:03,199 know? 1289 00:54:03,440 - > 00:54:05,920 So uh technical curiosity. 1290 00:54:06,079 - > 00:54:10,000 The second thing is I look for people who specifically for 1291 00:54:10,000 - > 00:54:12,719 pre-sales who have the grit for the grind. 1292 00:54:12,880 - > 00:54:17,199 And what I mean by that is to me, pre-sales is pretty cyclical 1293 00:54:17,199 - > 00:54:18,000 in how we work. 1294 00:54:18,159 - > 00:54:21,199 There are weeks that I have no idea how I'm gonna get 1295 00:54:21,199 - > 00:54:23,360 everything done, and then there's weeks where it's a 1296 00:54:23,360 - > 00:54:26,000 little bit lighter, and that gives me time to go look at demo 1297 00:54:26,000 - > 00:54:29,119 environments or maybe some processes that we need to show 1298 00:54:29,119 - > 00:54:29,440 up. 1299 00:54:29,679 - > 00:54:33,519 So you've got to be someone who can manage that, not freak out 1300 00:54:33,519 - > 00:54:37,760 if you've got two RFPs and four demos this week, just manage it, 1301 00:54:37,920 - > 00:54:38,239 right? 1302 00:54:38,639 - > 00:54:44,239 Um, the third one is they have to understand that pre-sales is 1303 00:54:44,239 - > 00:54:46,079 a sales role. 1304 00:54:46,320 - > 00:54:49,280 So even though you do the best demo in the world, Ron, and 1305 00:54:49,280 - > 00:54:51,280 you're not closing a business, you're not gonna be a pre-sales 1306 00:54:51,360 - > 00:54:52,239 person for very long. 1307 00:54:52,400 - > 00:54:53,840 We've got to close the business. 1308 00:54:54,000 - > 00:54:56,239 And that doesn't mean you have to be the best seller. 1309 00:54:56,320 - > 00:54:58,559 You're not gonna be out there, you know, in the used car lot 1310 00:54:58,559 - > 00:54:59,280 doing stuff. 1311 00:54:59,599 - > 00:55:03,039 But understand sales methodologies, understand what 1312 00:55:03,039 - > 00:55:05,280 your sales forecasting method is. 1313 00:55:05,440 - > 00:55:07,840 Be able to have those conversations with your sellers 1314 00:55:07,920 - > 00:55:11,679 and maybe even sales leadership about, hey, you know, you're 1315 00:55:11,679 - > 00:55:14,960 forecasting this, but we haven't done the technical conversation 1316 00:55:14,960 - > 00:55:15,760 yet, right? 1317 00:55:15,920 - > 00:55:18,000 So just kind of understand sales in general. 1318 00:55:18,159 - > 00:55:20,400 And then the last one, and this is kind of where the title of 1319 00:55:20,400 - > 00:55:23,199 the book came from, is you've got to be a friendly human who 1320 00:55:23,199 - > 00:55:24,480 can have a conversation. 1321 00:55:24,960 - > 00:55:28,320 Seems like table stakes, but again, I've known a lot of geeky 1322 00:55:28,320 - > 00:55:31,280 people like me who that was a real challenge for, right? 1323 00:55:32,000 - > 00:55:34,480 So I'm gonna suss that out during an interview, see if 1324 00:55:34,480 - > 00:55:36,400 they're able to carry on a conversation, or are they, you 1325 00:55:36,400 - > 00:55:38,719 know, deer in the headlights and they're just waiting to answer 1326 00:55:38,719 - > 00:55:39,440 the next question. 1327 00:55:39,599 - > 00:55:41,440 So those are the four things I look for. 1328 00:55:41,599 - > 00:55:45,840 And I feel like uh if if someone exhibit those four things and 1329 00:55:45,840 - > 00:55:48,800 they've got what it takes to be good at what we do. 1330 00:55:49,119 - > 00:55:49,840 Yeah, I love it. 1331 00:55:50,000 - > 00:55:53,920 And by the way, the the soft skills is not just uncommon for 1332 00:55:53,920 - > 00:55:54,800 technical people, right? 1333 00:55:54,880 - > 00:55:57,039 It can be uncommon for shy people like myself. 1334 00:55:57,280 - > 00:56:00,239 I was horrible to hold a conversation with because I 1335 00:56:00,239 - > 00:56:04,400 would get so overthinking in my brain and I didn't know what to 1336 00:56:04,400 - > 00:56:04,880 say next. 1337 00:56:04,960 - > 00:56:07,280 I would overthink what I would say, and then obviously it would 1338 00:56:07,280 - > 00:56:08,400 come out like horrible. 1339 00:56:08,639 - > 00:56:11,039 So um hard to imagine, Artie. 1340 00:56:12,159 - > 00:56:14,480 I will say I've definitely worked a lot on it. 1341 00:56:14,559 - > 00:56:17,519 So it's it's way different now, which is good, good for me. 1342 00:56:17,760 - > 00:56:18,960 Um, okay, awesome. 1343 00:56:19,119 - > 00:56:22,239 Is there anything on what you just mentioned on like how do 1344 00:56:22,239 - > 00:56:23,760 you test for that in the process? 1345 00:56:23,840 - > 00:56:27,039 And again, don't give away all your secrets, but just maybe a 1346 00:56:27,039 - > 00:56:29,119 couple of things of like, how do I test for this? 1347 00:56:29,199 - > 00:56:33,119 If I'm a leader listening and I don't know, you know, what to 1348 00:56:33,119 - > 00:56:33,760 implement? 1349 00:56:34,719 - > 00:56:36,159 There's there's a reason. 1350 00:56:36,320 - > 00:56:38,960 There's a reason that time's favorite number four is have a 1351 00:56:38,960 - > 00:56:43,519 conversation because I feel like a lot of the things that we need 1352 00:56:43,519 - > 00:56:47,440 to suss out, a lot of the things that we need to understand can 1353 00:56:47,440 - > 00:56:49,840 be done by just having that conversation, right? 1354 00:56:50,000 - > 00:56:52,960 So again, we talked a little bit earlier about people seizing up 1355 00:56:52,960 - > 00:56:53,679 on interviews. 1356 00:56:53,840 - > 00:56:56,559 Yeah, don't approach it as an interview, approach it as a 1357 00:56:56,559 - > 00:56:57,760 conversation, right? 1358 00:56:57,920 - > 00:56:59,840 Come to it open in that way. 1359 00:57:00,000 - > 00:57:02,480 Obviously, have the stuff prepared that you want to talk 1360 00:57:02,480 - > 00:57:03,039 about, right? 1361 00:57:03,199 - > 00:57:07,119 But be an active listener, be a participant in the conversation, 1362 00:57:07,360 - > 00:57:08,320 know where it's going. 1363 00:57:08,400 - > 00:57:12,079 But this also goes for the interview, the interviewer, 1364 00:57:12,320 - > 00:57:12,480 right? 1365 00:57:14,559 - > 00:57:15,199 Yeah, yeah. 1366 00:57:15,280 - > 00:57:17,519 You know, you you can't sit there with your list of eight 1367 00:57:17,519 - > 00:57:18,079 questions, okay. 1368 00:57:18,239 - > 00:57:20,400 Okay, and RV, what kind of tree would you be and why? 1369 00:57:20,559 - > 00:57:24,719 And just you know, go you need to hear what they're saying. 1370 00:57:25,519 - > 00:57:29,199 And so when people interview with me, it's it's it's maybe 1371 00:57:29,199 - > 00:57:31,679 not what they expect because we're just going to chat about 1372 00:57:31,679 - > 00:57:31,920 stuff. 1373 00:57:32,000 - > 00:57:34,719 And it could be the weather, it could be something happened last 1374 00:57:34,719 - > 00:57:36,239 week, it could be about gardening. 1375 00:57:36,320 - > 00:57:37,360 It doesn't matter. 1376 00:57:37,679 - > 00:57:40,559 That conversation that I'm having is telling me a lot about 1377 00:57:40,559 - > 00:57:41,599 what's going on. 1378 00:57:42,000 - > 00:57:45,599 So I think if we just get good at that, that could be helpful. 1379 00:57:45,840 - > 00:57:47,599 Yeah, really, really good point. 1380 00:57:47,840 - > 00:57:50,079 Um, one little tip that I implement on my end. 1381 00:57:50,159 - > 00:57:52,639 Obviously, I'm I'm a recruiter, so I'm dealing with scheduling 1382 00:57:52,639 - > 00:57:54,559 interviews, you know, and things like that all the time. 1383 00:57:54,800 - > 00:57:58,239 I never call it an interview to either side. 1384 00:57:58,480 - > 00:58:01,760 Hey, when would you like to have a chat or a conversation with 1385 00:58:01,760 - > 00:58:02,239 so-and-so? 1386 00:58:02,639 - > 00:58:05,360 And then even on calendar invites is always like 1387 00:58:05,599 - > 00:58:09,119 conversation with, you know, Ron and Arvey versus like interview 1388 00:58:09,199 - > 00:58:13,679 call with Ron and RV because it's it's a minor psychological 1389 00:58:13,679 - > 00:58:16,880 thing that makes you think I'm not going there to try and sell 1390 00:58:16,880 - > 00:58:20,480 myself because it's it's the most uncommon thing to do is 1391 00:58:20,480 - > 00:58:21,599 sell yourself for some people. 1392 00:58:21,679 - > 00:58:24,400 You know, some people are like so good at it, but when you 1393 00:58:24,400 - > 00:58:27,360 approach it as a conversation, it's like, okay, I'm just 1394 00:58:27,360 - > 00:58:30,400 jumping in to you know talk to Ron and see how things go. 1395 00:58:30,960 - > 00:58:32,239 So a little tip. 1396 00:58:32,559 - > 00:58:36,480 Um, okay, and last but not least, in your opinion, is what 1397 00:58:36,480 - > 00:58:40,880 separates somebody that's like a good SE versus like an A-player 1398 00:58:40,880 - > 00:58:41,280 S E? 1399 00:58:42,239 - > 00:58:44,559 So from good to great on the SE side? 1400 00:58:44,800 - > 00:58:45,199 Yeah. 1401 00:58:45,440 - > 00:58:49,039 Um, it's really about understanding what the end 1402 00:58:49,039 - > 00:58:50,320 result is, right? 1403 00:58:50,719 - > 00:58:55,199 And a great SE serves their customer, right? 1404 00:58:55,440 - > 00:58:58,719 Uh a great SE goes in there and they're really trying to 1405 00:58:58,719 - > 00:59:01,920 understand what it is this company is trying to fix and 1406 00:59:01,920 - > 00:59:04,719 understand that our solutions can actually help fix it and 1407 00:59:04,719 - > 00:59:06,400 guide them to that, right? 1408 00:59:06,719 - > 00:59:10,639 And and care about the broader organization and up leveling 1409 00:59:10,639 - > 00:59:11,360 everyone else. 1410 00:59:11,440 - > 00:59:16,000 Uh a good SE shows up, does what's asked for them, and maybe 1411 00:59:16,000 - > 00:59:17,119 not much else. 1412 00:59:17,440 - > 00:59:19,039 Yeah, yeah, very true. 1413 00:59:19,280 - > 00:59:22,800 It's um, I I would say, I mean, kind of how you said it, but 1414 00:59:22,800 - > 00:59:24,719 just going a little bit above and beyond, right? 1415 00:59:24,880 - > 00:59:28,639 We're not asking you to do, you know, twists and turns and all 1416 00:59:28,639 - > 00:59:29,679 these ninja tricks. 1417 00:59:29,840 - > 00:59:32,880 It's just a little bit, you know, above and beyond your role 1418 00:59:32,880 - > 00:59:35,119 and your sales process or whatever that looks like. 1419 00:59:35,280 - > 00:59:38,159 And then, like you said, most important of all, just being a 1420 00:59:38,159 - > 00:59:40,159 friendly human in pre-sales. 1421 00:59:40,880 - > 00:59:43,360 I think it's about the objective of the meeting. 1422 00:59:43,440 - > 00:59:44,719 Why are we having this meeting? 1423 00:59:44,800 - > 00:59:47,199 You're not having the meeting to deliver the demo, right? 1424 00:59:47,440 - > 00:59:47,840 Right, right. 1425 00:59:50,559 - > 00:59:53,199 On the start, so understand what the objective is. 1426 00:59:53,280 - > 00:59:56,159 And too often our sellers approach it the same way. 1427 00:59:56,320 - > 00:59:57,199 What's the purpose of the meeting? 1428 00:59:57,280 - > 00:59:58,400 Oh, we got to show them the demo. 1429 00:59:58,559 - > 01:00:01,440 No, no, we we got to go back and fix that to have a better 1430 01:00:01,440 - > 01:00:03,679 understanding of why we're actually there and why these 1431 01:00:03,679 - > 01:00:05,199 people are investing time with us. 1432 01:00:05,440 - > 01:00:06,559 Yeah, I love it. 1433 01:00:06,800 - > 01:00:07,920 Thank you so much, Ron. 1434 01:00:08,000 - > 01:00:08,880 This was awesome. 1435 01:00:09,039 - > 01:00:12,719 Thank you for coming on, sharing all of your knowledge and just 1436 01:00:12,719 - > 01:00:14,400 being super transparent. 1437 01:00:14,559 - > 01:00:18,000 Um, there's honestly so much notes to take from this episode. 1438 01:00:18,159 - > 01:00:21,519 If you're listening to this, make sure if you were live, make 1439 01:00:21,519 - > 01:00:24,880 sure that you took some notes or re-listen to it and have your 1440 01:00:24,880 - > 01:00:27,360 note takers open or something so you can start implementing 1441 01:00:27,360 - > 01:00:29,760 whatever Ron said because it was really, really awesome. 1442 01:00:29,920 - > 01:00:32,239 And thank you again for joining. 1443 01:00:32,400 - > 01:00:35,519 Is uh where where would be the best way for people to connect 1444 01:00:35,519 - > 01:00:36,079 with you? 1445 01:00:36,480 - > 01:00:38,320 Yeah, listen, connect with my LinkedIn. 1446 01:00:38,400 - > 01:00:41,119 Search for Ron Whitson if you see the tennis ball, you found 1447 01:00:41,119 - > 01:00:41,360 me. 1448 01:00:41,440 - > 01:00:44,000 Um, if you're interested in the book, there's a landing page for 1449 01:00:44,000 - > 01:00:46,559 it called TimelessBehaviors.com. 1450 01:00:46,719 - > 01:00:48,159 Uh, the book is on Amazon. 1451 01:00:48,239 - > 01:00:51,199 We've got a Kindle version, we've got uh Audible version of 1452 01:00:51,199 - > 01:00:51,360 it. 1453 01:00:51,519 - > 01:00:53,119 So if you like it, it's out there. 1454 01:00:53,280 - > 01:00:55,280 And I may have a couple of audible codes too. 1455 01:00:55,360 - > 01:00:57,760 So someone'd like that, maybe, maybe send me a DM. 1456 01:00:57,840 - > 01:00:59,199 Maybe you get an audible code for me. 1457 01:01:00,320 - > 01:01:00,960 Absolutely. 1458 01:01:01,119 - > 01:01:03,679 And I'll make sure to link it at the bottom too of our show 1459 01:01:03,679 - > 01:01:04,000 notes. 1460 01:01:04,079 - > 01:01:06,960 Um, obviously the book, Amazon link, and then your LinkedIn as 1461 01:01:06,960 - > 01:01:09,199 well, so people can make it can make it easier for people to 1462 01:01:09,199 - > 01:01:09,840 find you. 1463 01:01:10,000 - > 01:01:12,960 Uh, but thank you again, Ron, and thanks everybody for tuning 1464 01:01:12,960 - > 01:01:14,320 in and to our podcast. 1465 01:01:14,480 - > 01:01:15,599 I'll see you next time. 1466 01:01:15,920 - > 01:01:16,719 Thank you, Arvey. 1467 01:01:16,800 - > 01:01:17,519 What a great pleasure. 1468 01:01:17,679 - > 01:01:18,639 Appreciate it.