Ep.183 From Engineering to Global Impact | Anmol Goel on Startups, Scaling & Finding Purpose

Speaker A: Buckle up. It's fast, it's global, and it's venture at its best. Welcome to our 183rd episode. I'm Jeffrey JP Podvin and today we're here with the Rockstar Guest, Anmol Goal TEDx Speaker, Global Venture builder and investor shaping the future of startups and innovation. Anwal, welcome to the show. Let's take this venture global.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me, Jeffrey. And thank, uh, you for the kind introduction.

Speaker A: I love it. Well, I'm pretty excited to chat with the ML for many reasons, of course, because you're kind of a global venture builder and I think that's kind of neat. We don't get to talk with people that are bouncing, uh, through different countries, Middle east, uh, India, and of course, uh, the uk, Europe. And I'm going to throw in the US because everybody has to touch the US somewhere in this, uh, big world. So to kind of dump in right into this, jump in and say here how we want to do this. The best thing is we want to learn more about you and your backgr. But before we do that, before you dive into everything and don't share them about the TED Talk because I really liked it and I want to dive into that myself, but share a little bit about what you've come, where you've come from, what you've done, and of course, one thing about you that nobody would know.

Speaker B: Oh, that's an interesting one. Okay, uh, so where have I come from? So just a quick background. So I was born in Delhi, actually, uh, when I was about 10 years old, parents moved to the UK. So I grew up in the UK. Background always was sort of wanting to be a very, very entrepreneurial. So started doing odd jobs when I was sort of 14, 15, you know, mowing the lawns and you know, doing tutoring and babysitting and you know, doing the local paper runs and accounts, that kind of stuff. So always was a bit of a hustler's mentality because we grew up very, very humbly. And uh, at 18 I launched my first company, which was a fintech company. Um, didn't end up working out, but taught me a lot of things. Second company when I was 19, which is a prop tech company which I actually exited. Ah. So I became an exit founder, uh, then went into the corporate route for a bit as that's what I thought, you know, the big money would come in, especially you know, going into ib, so was hired by uh, JP Morgan and uh, you know, I think a lot of my generation and myself, you know, we got our uh, vision of what IB and investment banking is from Wolf of Wall street. And I'm sorry to break so many hearts here, it wasn't true, you know, it wasn't the world that was portrayed to me. And then sort of moved to wealth management. Uh, Marsha McLennan stayed there for another sort of two and a half, three years, um, where I was in insurance and uh, also pensions world, uh, doing large transactions there. And at the same time I launched my own venture consulting firm, started doing angel investing, built up my own venture studio. Um, as the AI wave came I started allocating for a lot of family offices. As my background in studying was mathematics. I had coded, um, my company which I launched with a proptech company that was I guess kind of AI company and uh, you know, sort of really well positioned for that. I was an early investor in OpenAI, um, as well as the first 10,000 users of OpenAI. And uh, you know that led me to sort of do a lot of allocations, did uh, before I turned 24 I did about 50 million in allocations for a founder family offices, launched my own multi family offices, consolidating the world, 31 families. And then also launched a VC fund this year as well. So a bit of plethora of things. So uh, from early to sort of growth stage, from advising to allocating, um, as well as deploying myself directly.

Speaker A: Sounds like you've uh, you've done quite a bit which is awesome. So you know that is the early stage. Uh, young, a lot of energy, entrepreneur wants to be able to dig into everything and do everything. So that's, that's amazing and we're going to dive into some of those stories and unfold them. But before we do, one thing about you, no one would know.

Speaker B: One thing about me, no one would know. Uh, I would say I'm a massive, like I'm a big sports nerd. So my initial plan actually was to go into sports. Like the finance and the, the studies thing, you know, came later on. But I'd actually represented for five sports at either a national or state level. Um, so I was a collegiate athlete. I was given a college bursary uh, for, for my sporting abilities. So I don't think a lot of people know that.

Speaker A: Uh, okay, very cool. I thought you were going to say you were an Arsenal fan, so I was going to get excited that you might be the third person. But I guess we're still at two Arsenal fans ever recorded.

Speaker B: So I have dignity, you know, I'm I'm a Chelsea fan so we're way better than them. I'm just telling you right there.

Speaker A: You know, I did watch Arsenal play at Chelsea and I will say that the Chelsea fans were quite, um, unfortunately boring. But I will say that the Arsenal fans really came in there with some vigor. But you know, I think it's because um, you've got a really old school setup and I did love the Chelsea Stadium. Regardless of the way it's set up, the way you go in and they open up this Metro to go in just that for the game day. It's kind of neat. So there's some cool things that, that come from that. So you've got some real old school style setup in uh, in the football in epl.

Speaker B: So uh, absolutely. And we just won the club World cup so we are literally the best club in the world. It, you know we've got the trophy to prove it.

Speaker A: That's true, that's true. But you know, if Liverpool would have had some, a few of their other uh, contracts come up a little bit earlier, I think you might have had a tougher go because uh, it always happens when you get close to contract changes then all of a sudden everybody starts to play a little bit better. So who knows what could have happened there. That's awesome. It's great to see that you're also uh, an EPL fan. So that's pretty cool. Uh, and I guess you have to be if you're in the uk, you kind of have to. I don't know if there's anybody that's not there that's not an EPL fan. They might actually ask them to uh, to leave the country or something. If you're not a football fan.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's when you sign your British uh, uh, uh, citizenship test, it's part of the questionnaire. Which team do you support? If you leave it blank, it's actually a test.

Speaker A: That's funny. That's probably the case. Yeah. It is very detrimental uh, to any survival in the UK or Europe. It's getting like that across Europe I think everywhere, media wise. Um, so that's pretty cool. So we're going to kind of unpack some of this stuff because I think you've done a lot in a short amount of time, which is pretty cool. Not a lot of people have had that ability. And when I was listening and going through some of your, the podcast, of course, um, through your TED Talk, it kind of had me really interested in some of the kind of key points to which shifts around the whole narrative and story of the things that you've built and kind of where you are you're at today. Um, and I know you've been accredited with a couple of things. The 40, ah, under 40, you got to do a TED Talk. So you've kind of really aligned a lot of these really, um, kind of strategically. I will assume uh, positions in things that are really outspoken and they're a lot larger media positions. So one thing I wanted to ask is like when you started to look at these things as you were going through school and starting to look at your um, roles and bigger companies and startups, did you somewhere tweak that there had to be something about personal branding that you really wanted to make sure that you got behind? Because I found that a lot of your stuff is of course, um, top notch. Like you're doing TED Talk, it's not like you're going in and you know, everything is small steps up, but you're doing a lot of big things. How did personal branding shift and where did you pick that up? Was that something that you started to notice when you were working with companies, when you were doing uh, within JP Morgan, you're working with big, big brands and you just saw how they use the brand power to really manipulate markets and change the way things work. Like what was your mindset and how did that come about?

Speaker B: I think my mindset from a very, very young age was to always be almost like the poster child.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So I think I was always in debates. So I was one of the youngest speakers in the House of Commons here in the UK at the age of 16. Because there's a photo of me with the speaker of the House with the minister, Lord Mayors and there's just a little scrawny me, you know, 16 year old and then the whole sort of hall is up and clapping for me kind of thing. Right. And I used to do school debates when I was sort of really, really young. And I think I never focus, uh, I mean looking back obviously it was, it was a strong sort of move to do and sort of PR sort of fell into place. But I think when I was beginning I didn't really have um, that in the back of my mind. My thing was give value, value will come, like always lead from that perspective. Um, and always just, you know, be very solid in your communication and your leadership. So initially when my first speaking opportunity and the first award came, so it was actually Singapore Fintech Week in uh, February 2024. So it's literally happened over the course of the last, I mean, I want to say 18 months, right? It went from. So for the first 16 to 18 months of when I was sort of building on the side and built my first couple of companies, that it was zero, right? Or maybe one. And then the last 18 months, I think I've now done 51, 52 international panels as a speaker in 25, 26 countries. So literally like the curve just went so vertical so quickly, and people are like, oh, you get lucky or you must have strategically done something. But they don't see the work that has taken behind. So one thing for me was always be very, very articulate and speak well. I think that was just a general skill that would instill upon me. Like my parents always made sure that you learned that. And they were one of those people put me in sports for discipline, who put me in debate club exercises, who put me, you know, really, really made sure I heen in my ability to articulate, to comprehend and be good with this sort of structure. Because, you know, immigrant, immigrant parents of coming into the country, my mom sort of had challenges with English and so on and so forth. She made sure her kids would never go through that. So that was one of the things which was, I guess not a pr, but you know, from a, from a structure point of view was always, uh, told. And then my thing of value was, you know, sort of early on when I was in bigger companies like hsbc, kpmg, Deutsche, interning, one, um, of the things I would always sort of do is just raise my hand up for everything and ask questions. People would always be so scared of asking questions. I wasn't, I would go ahead and, you know, that meant that I got to speak to a lot of CEOs, managing directors very, very quickly. And one of the things they would always reiterate is if you can deliver value, right, if you're really open and honest with your customers, your clients, they will tell you exactly what you need. There's no growth like client led, consumer LED growth, right? That's the best growth. There's no VC LED growth, no debt structure, no P LED growth, Nothing in comparison to if you're purely growing because your clients love using you, love being with you, and they will tell you everything you need to know. So in the super early stage when I was building, I was just provided a ton of value stuff that guys would charge for, you know, advising as well as, you know, uh, investor, uh, list as well as access to events and passes and da, da, da, which people would sort of try and Put my money to, I'll just put it on my LinkedIn straight away. Like, here it is. Like, just go use it. So a couple of people sort of started noticing me and then, you know, as my startups that I would advising, they started to do well, you know, they started doing their own PR through that. My, my PR started happened because, you know, they would say, thank you very much, Anmo. Anmo helped us with this. And then when the first, um, sort of opportunity came with the Singapore FinTech Week and then the Beta Tech week, it just sort of blew up from there because, you know, then they had just seen me on stage and really, really sort of seen me flourishing on these sort of webinars and leading these workshops. And then it was like the guys from Madrid saw me, the guys from London Tech Week saw me and, and you know, South Summit saw me and you know, Chile Tech Week and uh, Medellin and all these sort of places and they were all like, can we have you? Can we have you? We need to do this. And then it just, it just all then sort of steamrolled and now once it picked up momentum, I do like an event every week or every sort of 10 days now get invited and been all corners of the world, from South America to North America to Middle East, Asia, Africa, all over the place.

Speaker A: Now that's pretty cool. And when did you find that? I think the key piece to this that you shared and you mentioned a few times is provide value. So I guess as you were working through this and you're trying to better grasp, um, what the market was needing, did you see that there was a gap in that there wasn't somebody that carried the expertise and knowledge that you had and that you could kind of open that up more. And to your point, you can articulate, uh, a lot clearer. You can be focused on one area which was, uh, you know, venture or early stage, maybe it wasn't getting the same play in the UK or even globally where somebody was quarterbacking this. And when you're raising funds and you're talking to other investors, they're looking you up and they're trying to figure out is this person legit? Does this person carry the weight I need? And I think it does change. And maybe you have a different perspective. But you know, when we're doing a search for a startup and even if they've only been around for a year, you're looking to see what kind of footprint did they create, you know, how hard is it going to be for them if there is zero Sociability and they're not on any platform. And do you think they're going to go build a company in a rocket ship overnight? It's going to take them years to build that brand up. And it looks like if they follow your playbook, it's that, uh, you got to keep providing value. You got to share this, post it on LinkedIn, move it around, and these are the places that are going to get the eyeballs. But they're also going to get the attention. In the future when you do go to raise, people are going to say, this guy's credible. He's been around the block, he's been here for years. Look how much of a brand he's built up. Is that a fair statement?

Speaker B: Absolutely. I think, I think. I couldn't agree more. And I think that definitely takes time to nurture. And the reason most aren't able to do it is because I think in this very sort of ecosystem, we've gotten used to getting immediate gratification and just like any sort of validation. And, you know, I mean, we both know this, right? When we invest in a company, you're not getting a return tomorrow, right? You're waiting through 2, 3, 5 with VC funds, 10 years even, right? And I think a lot of times people are like, oh, man, I tried posting, you know, twice a week for the last five weeks. Nothing's happened. That's it, right? Um, I'm giving up. But I had to do that for 18 months with zero exposure. And then even before that, a year before, when I was sort of trying to do like Instagram pages, it's like it was one of those things, I think I always say, like, my ADD was my superpower. I just couldn't sit still. I always needed to do something, right? I was, I was always hustling around. I was, you know, building out social media pages. I ran a few, um, you know, in terms of trying to flip Instagram pages and that kind of stuff. And I just saw the power of attention, especially in the younger generation, right? Attention nowadays, it's the biggest currency. I mean, you look at what some of these YouTubers and guys get paid, right? It's, it's crazy, right? Mr. Beast, actually, he launched his own VC fund, I think it's called Night Studio, right? That he, he's solo GP to 50 million check, right? How many, how many GPs can, in today's day and age raise a 50 million first fund, right? And, and his, I think his, his brand, the Beast Network, the Beast brand is right now valued around 6 to 8 billion.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: $68 billion. And then you have got Sidemen. I met their GP. They launched a VC fund recently that's a $28 million fund again. So the, the attention and currency thing, I, I sort of recognize it super early on, um, and just made sure that I'm just putting my, my stuff out there. And then I think once it starts to grow, it will just automatically bankroll because then you'll see it. I think our, our, our sort of uh, uh, nowadays, uh, it's such a FOMO space. Right. I feel like a lot of investors, for example, when you see the YC label or you see the Andreessen Horowitz or you see the Axle label, I've seen so many VCs and angels not even do due diligence. They just go, oh yeah, YC has backed them, so I have to. Which I think is a terrible way to go and we don't recommend it at all. Right. And this might be one of the rant thing that I might talk about. But uh, you know, because their model is very different to early stage investors model, their model is a bit more of a spray and pray. Right. They play the volume game. Right. They're investing in, I mean I don't know how many they've done now, but I think till 20, end of 2022, early 2023, they'd invested in 2,700 companies YC had. Right. And their 50% of their DPI was from three companies. I think it was Doordash, Airbnb and I, uh, can't remember the third one. So you're pretty much telling me as a potential LP, that uh, 99.11% of the companies will result to zero. So as an investor, angel investor, when you have very limited money to follow on, that's a terrible way to invest. Right. So a lot of the times we need to balance, yes, what we want to showcase. But then hence why the value aspect was super, super key for me. Because yeah, you can talk about yourself, you can advertise, you can put it out there, and a lot of guys do that. But a lot of them are just also seen as annoying content creators. So the way to differentiate that is to bring value, which thus brings reputation, which thus will then bring in credit and then it will become cyclical.

Speaker A: I like that. It kind of reminds me of um, when I started to work in an early stage startup, uh, space, I don't know, 25 years ago, there wasn't a lot of vehicles for self branding and kind of self promotion. Uh, so you didn't really, you just got word of mouth, this guy invests, this happens, that type of thing. Um, and the competition was relatively low on the types of companies that were coming to. You weren't getting, you know, 50 restaurants coming for, uh, investment, you were getting two. And you were getting everything in the tech space that was coming out a lot faster. So I think it made it easier at that time to kind of go through and weed your way through. And today entrepreneurship is obviously scaled incredibly. So now your, your presence, it doesn't matter if you're an investor or startup, your presence comes from the value that you're, um, pushing out to the markets and what people are saying about you. So you got more ways to build that credibility. And I think, you know, when you look at when we started to invest and started to work at companies, to your point, you know, there's follow on, um, there's just layering your money into something because 12 other people did it. And I found that it's because most people didn't want to do the homework. They didn't want to put the effort in because they also realized that if only one out of ten is going to be successful, why do I put all this work in? It's easier just to put 50,000 in and see it fails because it would have cost me 50,000 to do the deep dive and watch it fail anyhow. So, you know, I think there's this, um, crossroads where you're trying to decide how much my work value is versus the money I put in. And is it easier just to push the money along and deal with the outcome after? Because I have all this money and I have to deploy it. And I have a belief because there's 12 other big venture firms that have already hopefully did the homework, um, and then I can layer into it. So I think in a way you're like small team. This is going to be the outcome. Hopefully those three aren't the only ones that are successful. And now there's this pushback against how much effort am I putting in to actually help this founder move forward. And I think they're also realizing that they have minimal effort to change any of this. So then they become just money. Uh, and I think that with this venture studio model that shifts a lot, it still has the attention of supporting and growing and how much can you maneuver inside that space. So I think I can see the shift that's occurred over the years. And then you're trying to still figure out which is the best way to get the best value across and then have the best exit outcome. And I'm not sure if there is a um, quantified way that is proven what is the most successful. I think it's really the effort and time that you put into something which it sounds like that's how you look at everything is if I'm going to do this, I'm putting everything in and I'm all in and I'm going to make sure this is successful because I'm part of it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you know there are a couple of studies sort of done by McKinsey and um, Carter. So there's, there's, there's two parts to it. So founders who raise more than 5 million on their pre seed end up getting to 100 million uh, a lot quicker. But then if we're talking about founders who can raise 5 million a pre seed, you know, we're talking then at least a 30, 40 million pre seed round there, that number is probably 0.00001%. Right. Because these guys who are raising at such a high valuation, either they're a third, fourth time founder or they're like um, you know, ex Bloomberg executive or an ex Microsoft executive who's come down and it's just their personal network is sort of doing it and again it's being built from the network. So again value is always an equation, part of the equation in the system or the second thing. And this is a bit more logical. And that was sort of the reason we decided to launch our venture studio was we realized cash as capital, anything below 5 million, uh, check for precede round doesn't add a ton of value because, and I guess this is more uh, focused on the B2B software side as that's what we look at. So this is not applicable to deep tech I don't think. Um, so on that side we realized cash as capital doesn't add a ton of value. Because the two biggest things, the two biggest challenges startups have early on is one, developing fast enough, right. And then second is to sell or commercialize quick enough as well. Because what usually happens is, and I'm sure you've seen this, is they'll raise half a million, which is sort of the general uh, uh, pre, uh seed round. And uh, you know, through that then they will start looking at tech talents, they will start looking at the sales talent, they will start building a little bit iterating and they'll usually get enough for sort of like a 12, 13 month Runway. But six months in they'll go, oh shit, we need to raise again because it will take us about six months to raise the next round. And what ends up happening is my founders become fundraisers, which I hate. I don't want my founders to be fundraised. I want my founders to find. Right, that's what I've given them money for. So we realized these two are the biggest hurdles. So for that I acquired a development company and I acquired a sales company and spun that out into a venture studio where we started to do tech for equity and sales for equity investment. So rather than the piece of the puzzle being look for capital, find capital, look for talent, iterate with the talent, then build and then chase more money. You just go look for equity, uh, and guys who have resources, uh, to give in exchange for equity. And that ended up working really well. And this venture studio, um, you know, we've now done 11 investments. Well, we're signing our 11th investment actually this week. Um, and I have another couple that hopefully will be doing by early September. And uh, you know, it's played out really, really well. We've grown into a couple million dollar balance sheet. Super, super. Uh, quickly, uh, we got recognized by NYC Journal, few family officers, open venture studios for them. We're in conversation with multiple governments who want to copy our sort of strategy that we've deployed here with them as well. So one country in Latam, one country, uh, uh, in Eastern Europe. This model works because logically there's still some equation of money coming in. So we only cover 50%. So 50% still needs to be there. So we need to see the founder has some ability to acquire capital and has that uh, uh, Persona, uh, and that charm to uh, acquire capital. And then we will provide the resources. And then the good thing with our model is you can in house the resources. So six months after. So there's no element of third party which was the biggest risk.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So I've been a founder, I've been an angel. My biggest thing was I don't like third parties, right? Because what happens to the IP and what if they disappear and so on and so forth. So we allowed them to after six months in house the team, right? You want the sales team in house, do it. You want to start in housing the tech team, do it. We'll help you bring in more tech guys in house, right? Because we want this to be internalized obviously in the super early stage for the first six to 10 months, whatever the phases. Don't internalize then because then your burn rate just shoots up. Super, super high and you don't have the cash coming in to be able to match that. But as that is coming in, it's a much more smoother, frictionless transition. And uh, I think that model is working out really well and you're seeing more and more venture studios and pop in, in the larger scale. A lot of private equities sort of trying to blend this in as well. And I think you're going to see more and more of this sort of structure uh, coming in.

Speaker C: Hiring is hard. The stakes are high. The wrong hire can cost time, momentum and money. That's why we built Hardboot. We work with founders and investors to find the people who move the needle in sales, marketing and product. Every candidate goes through our 50 point inspection process. So you don't just fill a role, you build a foundation. Your business is our business. We want you to win. Learn more@hardboot inc.com.

Speaker A: I like it and I think it's a good model for helping early stage companies um, work with things they don't know they don't have the expertise in. Um, it allows them to line that up to someone who does and then kind of build their business from it. Spend the time on the things that they can really focus and build on versus focusing on the things that they don't have much understanding on which can fall apart and break. Um, it's also convincing someone that they see that this is an opportunity versus uh, an equity grab or something else. So I think there is a fine balance on working through that kind of process with the companies. But I think it's a good strong model and it seems to be um, really getting a lot of global attention. Uh, when you see um, a lot of these um, venture uh, studios popping up and again they're, they're everywhere. It's just that they all have a different model, different structure, different way of doing things. But I think they do bring a lot more value in stabilizing the company in the first three years. So they should do more of them and they should have them everywhere. Because the key is that you stabilize the company and allow them to grow from there. Because that's really, you know, 95% of every economy is made up of startups. So you can either do it the old fashioned way, which is one person coming up with something and struggling for years to make it work, then they make it and they grow and go from there, or they get support and they learn how to work with others and build that up. And it sounds like you guys have done a phenomenal job on helping that happen. I love it. Well, we're going to kind of switch a little bit because I got to dive into this TED Talk because I think it was, uh, one fantastically done. So the two questions I have. The first one is, in your TED Talk, would you change anything today? Watching it now, would you go back and change anything, alter anything, add anything extra in? I always have to ask because I have had the privilege, uh, and honor to interview a few people that have done TED Talks. And I'm always curious because some of them are 5 years old, 3 years old, 10 years old, and I'm like, would you change anything? Has anything in the world changed that would make your TED Talk a little different?

Speaker B: I think, um, obviously I have more accolades now since I've done it. Um, so, you know, to sort of show again. Time is, is. Is just of the essence and, you know, the, the real impact of compound interest of time, right? If you, if you put in the time in over and over and over again for a consistent duration of period, you will do so well and, you know, the curve will steepen. But I think in general terms, no, I think that was the first time I'd really sort of shared my story. I think, uh, it. And it took a while to sort of become vulnerable enough to go at such a large stage and sort of talk about the hardships which, you know, me and the family sort of had to deal with, right from my personal sort of mental health issues when I was sort of failing every. Not failing, uh, you know, Covid. And things just weren't going my way, way to sort of early beginnings and the hardships of parents sort of went through to get me to where I am. And then again, you know, struggling, you know, both taking big risks and part of risk and entrepreneurial stuff is sometimes that things don't work out right. You can, you can do all the right planning, but it's the way of the world, right? It's a risky venture to, you know, go into. So I think, no, I think I delivered it as honestly I could have. And, uh, yeah, I think that was the first time I, the world got to see that side of me. Because they always just see nowadays, you know, you. Nowadays you meet me, you're like, okay, international speaker, investor, uh, tech guy. But, you know, to sort of take that, uh, not a facade, but like that, that initial, uh, covering over and you know, a kid who was super scared, who came to the country where he didn't really speak the language, really struggled and sort of made It. I think. I think that was the real first opportunity for me to share that. So I don't think I will change anything.

Speaker A: Perfect. Now. I love that. Um, I think, you know, when you're being vulnerable, it certainly helps people learn more about you and where you came from or the actions you took to get where you are. And a couple of things that kind of stood out to me were, um, you know, and I think it's. It's fascinating, but the people that challenge status quo and challenge, um, life and entrepreneurship, being entrepreneurs, is that they always are told they can't do something. And, you know, it's fascinating. I've never heard anybody say that they got support and someone told them they should do this. It's always the reverse. Like, I have to make sure that the whole world knows that not one person wanted me to do this. Um, you know, like risk, ah, adverse. You know, my parents told me, get a job, stick in the job, don't say anything, just do the job, get paid, uh, because that's what they were used to. But, you know, it's different when you have an entrepreneurial parent because you ask that entrepreneurial kid and the kid's like, oh, my dad told me to do it, told me to jump off. My mom said, do this. So they were like, totally trained differently. They were told not to be worried. Don't stop. Just keep going. Plow your way through, make the change, break everything. So I think it does become, um, a little bit standoffish when you're. If it's your teacher or anybody along the lines, it's the. That's the learning that you get from the know. Um, and it's your way of working through that no and trying to understand where that takes you. And it sounded like through obviously your talk, you got a lot of, um, pushback and no's. Uh, but you also analyzed to figure out how to work around that. And, and that's what got you over, um, the hurdles versus accepting the no and just kind of going back into the space you were in. It was about, uh, that vigor to push forward. So I really thought that was a, uh, powerful kind of statement because I think sometimes we forget it and we need to hear it more is that, you know, no's sometimes are for their own personal reasons and that you got to work around them and analyze why that no came through and kind of keep hustling forward.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think it's very true. And I think, you know, I heard this statement, um, you know, just sort of before I was doing my TED Talk, and it really sort of resonated with me. I was watching, um, you know, this, this interviewer on YouTube, and he asked this gentleman, and he said, what if you knew you were only 20 or 30 no's away from everything you had ever wanted, right? How quickly would you go towards the next note? M. We often, you know, we. We grow up in this mindset of stability and, and, and this, this cocoon bubble to always sort of not take the risk because we think this negative mindset around hearing a no is you failed or you. That's that, right? It's over. But I think. I couldn't agree more. I think that no really gets you that one step closer to the yes, right? Really one step closer to where you ultimately want to be. And that sentence of literally just like, what if you are 20 or 30 no's away from everything that you really, truly want?

Speaker A: That, that.

Speaker B: That 20th, 21st no will bring you the billion dollars. How quickly will you go to the next no, right? And when he asked that, that, when he mentioned that, and then he looked at the. The guy's face and you could see this, like, this, the shine. He was like, wow, it's very true. Like, if I literally tell you tomorrow, like, Jeffrey, you are 21 no's away, right? And you can tell this to a founder as well, who's really, really struggling, right? He's already got 10 no's, and he's like, maybe this isn't the idea. And, you know, if you, you know, future version of themselves come in and say, dude, actually you're 14 calls away. How quickly will you try and get through that? 14 calls? And I think you just have to rewire your mindset and it takes a lot of time. For me, um, it was just hard cap mentality. I was like, either I'll do it or I'll die, right? It was just one of those things, you know, I, I always say, like, I don't think I'm particularly talented or whatever, but my mindset was just, you know, if someone's getting on the treadmill for 10 hours, I'll do 11. If they're doing 11, I'll do 12. And that's that. Like, either I'll do it, I'll die. It was just the only thing I knew, right? And ultimately, when going through, you know, tough periods of time in my life, then you start to realize a few patterns and then you sort of start to figure things out. But initially it was just, I have to do it because there's no other way out of it, right? And I think I'm still very much like that. So I think some people are like, dude, you're too intense and it doesn't work for them. Which is, which is fair enough. But this is what served me really, really well. And I think it'll continue to. And I feel like if you're in a difficult place, sometimes you have to just switch off that overthinking part of yourself and be like, you know, effort, like, I'm already in a bad place. I can't go any lower from this. So why don't I just give it all?

Speaker A: Well, it's interesting when you also brought up like the world intervened, where, you know, you're backing your car up and there was honking and you kind of decided to go in and, uh, rebalance yourself. You know, it reminded me of a story where, um, uh, when I was an entrepreneur on my own, working for myself for 20 years and um, built all of these things, same things up through learning, failures, drops, and you don't even know what the failures are. If you went back and analyzed, you like, oh man, did I ever fail a lot of things. But because you have this lifelong goal to just keep building forward, you don't pay attention to what failed because you were shifting so quickly that you just let it fail or you went in a different direction, but the world intervenes as well. You get to a spot where, you know, you're just like, why won't the world give me a five second break? And, you know, you said it quite well. It was that, you know, if my bitcoin would have taken off and this would have happened, and I didn't have a separation from my girlfriend and my parents breaking up. Like all these things that occurred, uh, you're like, I wouldn't have been the person I am today because I didn't have the adversity and everything was just super easy, then I wouldn't have been challenged. And I think all of this comes back to which we originally talked to, which is all about personal branding, was the things that you learn to shape how you are. And the world was going to throw a lot of hard things at you. And some are going to work, some are going to fail. They're all challenges. It's how you accept the challenge. But it also determines how much focus do you have as an individual to say, I'm in the right lane, this is what I'm going to do. No matter what, I'm going to launch this bank or I'm going to Launch this product, whatever that might be. It's how dedicated you are to accept those challenges, to push yourself into making sure this gets executed. And you know what? Maybe you are in the wrong lane. Maybe you don't belong building that business or that bank, uh, but you'll make that decision on your time, your way, uh, even if you get faced with a lot of adversity. And sometimes the horn is uh, beeping in the background to let you know maybe you need to change the lane. And thank God you got the beep because that helped you change, right? In my case it was uh, very similar, but I had a car cut in front of me and I T boned them. So it was, I uh, couldn't do anything about it. It was just. And then boom. And that was my wake up period, right? I had this in a conversation a long time ago in a book someone was recording, they said, what was your aha moment? And I was like, you know, after that moment everything changed because my focus changed everything. Of course it changed. You were in an accident. But my brain was like, I gotta do this. And it was the wake up moment. It was the horn beeping. And that's what shifted your mindset out of what you're, the funk you're in or wherever you are going. So I think we all are going to face those challenges.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, uh, absolutely. I completely agree. And I think it's one of those things, right? Easy comes, easy goes, right? And that's what I was sort of trying to iterate. And you know, if you're asking God for, for strength, you know, you got to be ready for challenges because, you know, you, you can't expect to be strong or smart or resilient without going through any tough times. You know, it's the old saying of, you know, peaceful, uh, uh, waters never made strong sailors or good sailors, right? If, if you want to be a good sailor, you have to, you know, battle through the seas. You have to go through tough times, those peaks and troughs of waves. And I think it's, it's super, super important. And you know, when you look at these top of the top founders, and that's why actually, and you know, everything that I've learned have sort of implemented in, in my way of investment is one of the pieces that we also have or sort of one of the criteria is more say is we only invest in second time founders, right? Or founders with executive experience. Biggest reason why is so many people, when times will get tough, they'll leave. They'll say, actually my 9 to 5 is good. I'm going back to this because people, you know, uh, I think entrepreneurialism is glorified so much and to an extent that, oh, you get to work your own hours, you know, you can choose which days you want to work. Like try it, you know, I dare you. There's no such thing as Saturday, Sunday. There's no such thing as 2:00am um, there's no such thing as time with family or friends. You are always working. I am always working. It's one of those things. Yes. Now I've gotten to the point where I get to choose and I can, you know, do whatever I want. But if that's the only source of income you have, especially in the first couple of years and people are depending on you and there's no other stream coming in, you don't have a choice. If someone is calling you at 2:00am, you're picking that 2:00am M call up. If someone is calling you on Sunday at 5am, you're picking that up, right? So founders who haven't gone through that, sometimes they'll just go, I'm, I'm happy to go back to a banking role or to a, you know, retail consumer role and project manager or else fit there and I'll, I'll get my pay every single day, every single month, on the second of the day and whatever, whatever. So I think, I think everything that I have learned from those sort of things that somehow or have, um, you know, weirdly somehow shaped my way of how I invest and make better decisions which have then, you know, led to me sort of being better in my PR and voicing that, uh, and talking through experience. And I think that's the experience part is also a big sort of reason why my, again, quote unquote non tried but still happened PR has worked out really well is I talk about experiences rather than hypotheticals in the sense that if someone asks you, right, or someone asks me, for example, right, Anmo, how do you build uh, $100 million company? I don't say, well, I think you should think about this, this and this. Because when you, as soon as you start talking about hypotheticals or you should think about this, they can challenge you on that, right? But I've advised and helped build 100 million dollar company. So I can say this is what we did. You can't challenge an absolute because this is exactly what I did to get there. Right? So one of our companies recently raised 128 million, uh, valuation. That's fact, it's figurative. You Cannot, you know, dispute that. So when I talk, I don't say, well, maybe have a consideration on this, this and this. It's, this is what I did and this is where it led me to. Now you can choose to follow it. But these were my learnings. You can ask me, hannah, how'd you build a building billion dollar company? That's where I'll go into hypotheticals because that, I don't know. I've never built one. I've never advised a billion dollar company. I wish to and I'm on track to in the next couple of years, but I don't know that answer.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So I think that's also where a lot of people get caught in this false facade, where they'll say, yeah, you know, I think if you want to get to 100 million, you should do this. Isn't that. But you haven't done it. So what are you talking about? Right, so. And I think people really, really see through it very, very easily where, uh, people have done it or haven't done it.

Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds like it's more of picking your lane and sticking to the lane of things, you know, and keep building on the lane, keep building on the challenges, building the things that can, uh, grow your, um, your background, your mindset so that you can continue to help other people. And some people just, uh, have a knack to be, you know, billion dollar this or 100 million this. And I, I think, you know, that's great and you should look for those people. Um, but it's. Everybody comes at a different division. Right. Series A is different from series D and series E. So investors are different, people that have succeeded in those areas are different. And you have to appeal to each one of those layers a little bit differently. Um, I think if you're finding people that are, hypothetically speaking, sure, it's good if you can disseminate between the good and the bad inside of that. Someone's opinion doesn't really validate where you're going with your business. If you're doing 100 million and they're telling you what they did to build a million dollar business, you could be short selling yourself. But if you can work your way through the details, it's going to obviously enable you as well. But you have to be a really good operator to understand where everybody's coming from. So I think advice is, and coaching are good. If the operator or the person that's taking that information can disseminate it properly into a successful plan moving forward that will benefit the growth of where they are and the mindset that they're at. You know, we'll, we'll share with um, startups when they're signing up advisors and coaches at the beginning we'll say look, you know, they want to be a three year contract. They want 3% of the company and they're going to be here for three years. And I'll say, uh, give them six months or one year tops because you're going to be bored of them after a year. What do you mean? That person won't have enough information to go any further than one year. You'll be bored. You literally will stop talking to them. You may not believe that now, but unless that person has a really deep bench and background of understanding which typically doesn't occur, then you'll be bored of them and they're not going to have the information and they're going to be sitting around taking 3% of your company. So you know, look at things in short term, slow down, speed up and you'll, you'll find that extra value in the people that are further up food chain that, that's what you're going to focus on and you're going to keep shift, um, so you get to the series E and series uh, G, and you're raising hundreds of billions, right? So hopefully that's the case for everybody. But I think there's ah, certainly been a lot of great learning and we are going to shift into the next um section. But I think just to kind of reiterate a lot of the things that you really uh, stand for and talk about, um, that I felt really compelling was that, you know, really be an expert in what you're doing. Uh, you know, I love the fact that, you know, in your talk and I thought you were gonna, there was a thing I used to do and you raised your hand. I tell everybody to, at the conference, raise your hand. And people would raise their hand and then I'd say turn to the person here, right? High five them. You know, you're here, be excited. This is awesome. And I thought you were gonna do that. And I was like, oh my God. And then you were like, why don't you put your hand up a little higher? You know, why don't we strive to put our hand as high as we could. And you know, I think that really stuck with me because I do think that um, you know, a lot of what we're talking about today and everything else that goes on in this world is, and I love pushing this is you're going to do something, be the best at it. You know, go all in, push as hard as you can, um, make to break everything. But this is your dream, your passion. Make it happen. And I think a lot of what we talked about today, the personal branding from how you communicate with people, how you drive yourself, how you push others around you, um, you know, you have a point to prove. Told you can't do this. These are all of the things that energize you to be a better, faster, quicker, better entrepreneur. And I think um, that message comes along quite clearly and I, I hope everybody gets a chance to listen to your TED Talk. Um, but thank you, that's been awesome. Um, but to, to shift now, we're going to go into the 60 second rant. So the 60 second rant, the way it works is you get 60 seconds to random or anything. I will try and counter but I, I highly doubt it because I think I'm going to support it because I uh, think you know, you're talking about. So I'm all for it. So let's jump into it. Ah, seconds. The clock is ticking. You're on.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think my 60 second is uh, you know, I think I touched upon is it's a blind investment side. So if you're an angel investor getting you know, newly into the space, because a lot of people come to me and ask me, you know, I've got a spare 20k, 30k, how do I invest? Right? And often they, they see these really, really big uh, named vcs like the ycs and um, actually I should probably not mention them just in case they, they file or something. But you know, these really big name uh, I mean look, I do like yc. They're a big uh, you know, they pushed a lot of innovation into the world of VC and they've done well. But I think you know, in essence, for a retail investor or for an early stage investor, do I think their model is the best for them to sort of capitalize on and invest with? I don't think so. And I think that's where a lot of misinformation is, where you know, they think that if they invest alongside these top of the top, um, groups that's how they will make money. Right? That's the real um, sort of way. And I think that is really affecting the image of vc. Right. And hence why you've seen so many articles this year saying is VC broken? Is the VC industry finished? Is VC no longer going to sort of work? And I completely disagree with that because this model of The Spray and pray model. And only one out of ten. That wasn't how VC started. VC started a long time ago in sort of the 70s and 80s in the US as well as um, in the, in the UK broad ecosystem. And the focus very much was to back strong performing financial companies. Right. This whole sort of figment of back companies and don't worry about if they're burning millions, we will just catch up and raise more funding came a lot later on. So I think if you're a new investor, you're starting to begin uh, to invest, I think really focus on one what you know and focus on how you can be a strategic investor. Uh, if the money, you know, because when you're investing these 20, 30k checks, this is not a big enough differentiating money. So think on if you can bring them more clients, if you can decrease the, the process it takes them to close clients or bring other partnerships. If you can do that, go be their investor, go be their partner. If you can't, don't go for it.

Speaker A: I love it. Uh, and I'm, I'm not gonna counter against it because I wholeheartedly agree with um, everything you shared. I think I would add um, that you know, buyer beware, it's your, you know, just because someone else invested in something, just because someone else jumps off a cliff doesn't mean you have to. So you have to determine what your risk factor is in this process and what you're willing to gain and what you're willing to lose. So um, you know, do your, do your homework. But also you know, I like the fact that you guys look at second time founders, they've been around the block, hopefully they're more trustworthy, they know what they're doing. Um, and those things carry a lot of uh, work value, work sentiment. So you can learn from that. And you know I think the, the key to all of this is to work with someone who has been around the block. If you're going to start investing, talk with someone, learn from them, you know, mirror them, follow them around. They're going to tell you this is a good opportunity. But this is bad, this is over a saturated market. And learn from it doesn't mean they're right, it just means that they can give you some quick insights that'll help you move forward. Um, but I think what you shared is uh, key to a saturated market that they're just pushing money everywhere, trying to hopefully make a gain. And if you're putting in 20, 30K you just have to figure out is this worth my money or am I just chasing the big brand that's doing the work, supposedly doing the work in the background.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And also on the mirroring part that you said also mirror them when they were at the similar sort of stage as you. Right. Because. And I see this quite a lot. Um, and again, so just touching back on the brand side, where a lot of these guys on social media, now that, you know, you look at their morning routines and their morning routines as they get out of bed and, you know, they're. They're sitting in the sunshine and they're, you know, spending 20, 30 minutes there and then they're making their, like, little yogurt bowl with granola and fruits and that's taking another hour. And they're sitting and, you know, doing the weird chance for 30 minutes and then they're going gym and people are, you know, thinking, oh, this is how I should do it. I'm like, you know, f. No, like, look at what they were doing when they were struggling. Right. What was their routine then? You know, what made them, you know, don't look at what Elon and Jeff Bezos are doing today because they're doing it from a perspective of 100 billion in their bank account. Look at them when they were doing. When they had nothing. What was their lifestyle like then? How were they waking up? They were waking up at 6, 5, 4am hustling. You know, it's that mentality of like, as soon as you're up straight work, right. You know, you get on the calls. So. So I think that's. That's also an important thing because they're trying to mirror, but they're not in the same situation and they don't comprehend that you only get to mirror that stage once you're equally as comfortable or in a decent enough position. Right. Obviously, mirroring about exercises and diet, that's different. Uh, but I think lifestyle in itself shouldn't be mirrored one to one if you're not in the same sort of position, uh, and should be mirrored. You know, if an individual has reached them that, that sort of sudden status, ask them what they were doing to get there and what was their lifestyle then, and that will be the result to take you to where they are now.

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Speaker A: I love it. That's uh, that's huge. That's uh, very valuable. I think it's like anything you're gonna, when you look at something you, you want to put it in the perspective where you're sitting, not where they're sitting because they're way further ahead and they're going to totally skip the hard work that they did to get there. So you're right, it makes a big difference. So it's uh, that's hugely valuable. Um, okay, we're going to, we're just going to finish up with some quick rapid fire questions. I'm going to mix it up a little bit so there'll be some personal business. Pick one or the other. Um, and then um, we'll tie it off there. So we're almost at the end. Uh, so here we go. Uh, investment wise, uh, would you rather invest in a founder or co. Founder?

Speaker B: Invest in a founder or co founder.

Speaker A: Which one would you pick? Do you want two guys? One guy, one girl, three girls? Like, oh, what are you investing in one or the other?

Speaker B: Always. Always. Multiple. Yeah, I don't like solar founders. Too difficult. Yeah, multiple.

Speaker A: Would you prefer a unicorn or a 4 year 10x exit?

Speaker B: Oh, unicorn. Um, if it is the standard 8 years time. Uh, but if it's a, ah, 4 year. But if it's longer than 8 years then I'll take the 4 year 10x.

Speaker A: All right. AI or blockchain? AI. First money in or series? A

Speaker B: uh, bit of both. I technically do both. I like first money in, but both

Speaker A: number of companies invested per year.

Speaker B: Right now we're averaging about 14 or 15.

Speaker A: Nice. Uh, leader follow

Speaker B: plus co lead, not not be a solo lead.

Speaker A: Okay, what's one piece of advice you give founders? 9 out of 10 times.

Speaker B: Know your numbers. Know your numbers super, super well. Your market, your competition, your unit economics, uh, exact breakdown of how every penny is being used and what you go to market of that uh, penny will be and what your dilution looks like. And what do you want from your investors?

Speaker A: I love it. 1,000% on that. Agreed. Who is your mentor or hero and why?

Speaker B: My hero is probably my parents. I think just seeing the resilience that they had and the things and times that they sort of went through to get me where I am. My mentor, I don't really have one per se, but a guy I really look up to and would love to meet in person is Alex Hormozi. Um, super, super interesting guy. And he sort of a lot of the beliefs. When I was building up my companies over the last sort of three, four years, I. I looked up to him and the content he used to share. And that's where my value driven side came, where he was just like, I'm just providing it for free. Right. And once they grow, they will come to me because I have now built this trust, which is the exact sort of thing I tried to do, and it's hopefully working.

Speaker A: I love it. Favorite book?

Speaker B: Oh, I would say the Alchemist.

Speaker A: Well, very good book. I agree. Favorite, uh, sports team. Chelsea Cake or Fortune Cookie?

Speaker B: Neither. I'm not a big, sweet guy.

Speaker A: All right, Superman or Batman?

Speaker B: Superman.

Speaker A: Oh, you're dc. All right. DC or Marvel?

Speaker B: Marvel.

Speaker A: All right. Fair Football or football?

Speaker B: Well, there's only one real football. American football isn't real football.

Speaker A: I love it. Good answer. Elon Musk or Oprah Winfrey?

Speaker B: Oh, I don't know that much about Oprah, so I would go Elon. But I would equally love to learn more about Oprah. I just person just don't know her enough or enough about her background story.

Speaker A: Their favorite movie. And what character would you play

Speaker B: a favorite movie? Um, Good Will Hunting. I think I really liked, uh, the role, ah, that Will played. I can't remember the actor's name, but I think it was very resonant to me, uh, because I was mathematics student, bit of a genius, socially struggled a little bit, and, uh, and also loved, um, you know, the, the. Why have I forgotten the legend's name? He's the guy who did the. My. My captain. Oh, my captain. You know, you know the guy I'm talking about. I forgot the name, but yeah, his role as well.

Speaker A: Um, uh, I should just said it. Now that I think about it, I'm gonna forget it after I was saying it. Um, it'll come to me in a sec. I can picture him and everything. It's also one of my favorite movies. Um, what is your superpower?

Speaker B: Oh, I, I think I have the ability to just get back up. I think that is my, my superpower. Um, I think I always know, no matter what happens, no matter, you know, how many knocks I take, I might be down for a while, but I know ultimately I'll get back up.

Speaker A: Up. I love it. That's a fantastic superpower to have. It's very entrepreneurial, of course, but it's also knowing that the confidence you have in yourself and your abilities and it sounds like all the great things that we've talked about, um, today, which has been awesome to get to learn more about yourself and all. You've uh, done some incredible things, you're building some great companies. Um, and I think that your superpower really does resonate across all the things you're doing, which is your resilience to keep uh, driving and finding value and building that for others and building that for yourself. So uh, it's been a pleasure to chat with you. Thank you very much for sharing. The person's name was Robin Williams and um, I figured it would come to me eventually. But also I want to say thank you very much Anmo for joining and sharing all this great insight. And from that, um, any last words you want to share with the audience but please also let them know how they can get a hold of you.

Speaker B: Absolutely. First of all, thank you very much for uh, having me and asking me all these sort of thought provoking questions. I think it's super, super important, um, you know, for us who have built, uh, to also help others build. I think, you know there's, there's no, there's no value in building if you can't share it. Um, I think that's one of the things I, I learned very early on. So yeah, if you want to get a hold of me, I think the easiest thing reaching out to my team on LinkedIn. Um, so either Adi or Arjun or Amanda or someone, um, my LinkedIn's a little bit flooded. Uh, so if you reach out to me directly, my PA or someone from the team will get back to you. We try and get back within a sort of a space of two to three weeks. Um, but please bear with if we can't. If you're a startup raising, um, you can email us. My email is widely available. The team email is called adminacsltd. I monitor that a lot of the time. So uh, if you're raising you want help or you know, you want to send us our deck, please feel free to. And I think my, my takeaway would be that I think go for it. I think, I think that's what I'll tell a lot of people. You know, they're, they're stuck in that sort of position of should I go for it, should I not? Should I go for it, should I not? I think even if you go for and you fail, it's better than living with that bill of regret. There's no worse uh, bill and more heavier sentiment to uh, go away with. And I, every single time where I have not tried something. It's only happened very, very few times in my life. Um, I always, always think back to it. So even if I fail, I just go in the future. At least I tried it and I knew what the outcome was now. So I won't have. In the back of my mind, people far off far too often just go, oh, I can't do it. Or maybe this won't happen. I need to look after wife or whatever, and they give themselves that excuse. And five, six years later down the line, it just eats them alive. So whatever situation you're in, go for it. You're very, you know, you're so much more competent than you know you or you think you are or you give yourself credit to. You yourself will find a way to make things happen once you get into it, I promise you. But you just have to take that first step. So go all in, and I wish you guys all the best.

Speaker A: I love it. And, um, thank you very much again. It's been awesome.

Speaker B: My pleasure.

Speaker A: Just for fun, you could say go it. I'm trying to blend your last name into it. Go. Go it.

Speaker B: So actually the, the surname is pronounced Goyle, so you. I can say go. Yell it. Like, yell it out loud.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there you go. I'm just trying to find a way to. Trying to make that work, but there you go. I love it. Well, uh, anmol, thank you very much for your time, buddy. We'll, uh, we'll get the recording off. It'll happen over the next, uh, two to four weeks, and we'll let you know when it does. We'll put it all together and, uh, send it out and post it and keep you, um, in the loop on that so you can share it out as well. But great conversation, man. I love that. I think, uh, your, um, TED Talk was brilliant and of course, all of the things you've been doing. So keep, uh, up the great work and, uh, I appreciate you sharing. This was awesome.

Speaker B: No, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much and I look forward to it. Um, I think there's, there's definitely going to be some, uh, good, uh, insights that might come out of it and, you know, maybe some good clips that we can sort of utilize.

Speaker A: Oh, there will be for sure, man. Yeah, a lot of great things. I love it. Um, and if you think there's anybody that we might be able to get into the podcast, we'd love to get in front of them and interview them. But, yeah, feel free to share anybody across. But. But again, thanks, man.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I'LL recommend a few people.

Speaker A: Thank you. All right, Have a fantastic day.

Speaker B: All right. Take care, Jeffrey. Bye. Bye.

Speaker A: Ciao.

Speaker C: That's it for today. In our next episode, we'll be joined by Graham Rowan. Don't miss it.

Speaker B: Says I was a great disappointment to my family.

Speaker A: I was. I, uh, was meant to go into the family law firm.