How Values-Driven Hiring Builds Stronger Teams | John Hoey, CEO of the Y in Central Maryland

Speaker A: My father's generation and even my generation. When I started, you know, it was all about, you know, get a job, stay with the company for the whole time, deal with whatever you deal with and retire from it. Well, you know, that world doesn't exist anymore. We know that.

Speaker B: How do you make sure that somebody really is authentic and don't just tell you what they're. What you want to hear?

Speaker A: Most people will try to do in an interview situation, tell us what we want to hear. I don't think there's any sort of secrets. Process that one or something that, that. It's a magic bullet there. I think you really have to. It's all about listening. It's about asking.

Speaker B: Welcome listeners. I'm Seb Vishman, your host of the Do Good Insider, uh, where we dive deep into raw and meaningful conversations with visionary founders, CEOs and CHROs who see beyond profits, elevating the lives of employees and vendors and this beautiful planet we call home. In today's episode, we welcome John Hui, a leader who is redefining what it means to build a company from the inside out with intention, heart and purpose. As the CEO of the Y in Central Maryland, a movement dedicated to serving children, John has crafted a culture where every higher decision is a reflection of the mission they serve. He believes that who you bring in is just as important as what you do. And that belief shapes everything from operations to team dynamics. We will explore how John nurtures a workplace culture so meaningful that staff can choose purpose over pay. How you lead with clarity without compromising compassion, and how intentional leadership creates long lasting impact in your organization. If you are a leader of wrestling with how to build a values driven team while navigating real operational challenges, this conversation will hopefully inspire you. Let's dive into the kind of leadership that I believe doesn't just build organizations, but it builds legacies. So welcome John. Good to have you.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me, Seb. Um, looking forward to talking to you.

Speaker B: John, when we talked initially, what really struck me was the intention with which you hire at the Y in Central Maryland. And I think that's a conversation that is so valuable as we define culture. And you struck me as somebody who just doesn't compromise your mission in the way you go about hiring. Talk us through your philosophy around this, how you go about it and why.

Speaker A: Well, for me it really starts with an understanding of uh, the why is really about serving, uh, the community and that uh, our product, if you will, is our people. Right? And that people aren't just simply a means to the end. They are the end. They are what people come to experience for us. Um, we can have great buildings and great programs and all that kind of stuff, but it is really the human engagement at the end of the day that makes the why different and that makes the why special. And so, um, we have to build a culture. Culture is not just, uh, uh, nice to do for us. It is the essence of who we are. And so making hiring decisions, uh, everything we do around people. Well, we are not perfect. And we, you know, we are just as flawed as the next organization in terms of, you know, we make our mistakes, but we are very intentional. We believe that, um, we're much more interested in who you are as opposed to sort of what you've done. Um, we're more interested in what your values are. We're more interested in whether you care, um, about the community. Um, we feel like we can train you on most anything if you start with the sense of purpose that we look for in people. So that's kind of what we've tried to do.

Speaker B: Yeah, I find that incredible. Can you share with us, uh, some more details around, like you talked about, kind of that you really focus on the values of somebody. Right. We hear a lot about hiring for culture, but. But I think the way you go about it is much more intentional. It goes a step further where, um, it almost seems you have this personal, meaningful conversation with a new hire where you say, look, who are you? And let me introduce to you who we are. And if there's a match, great. And if not, you know, I love you and I send you off, so to speak. Give us some more specificity of some of the questions or, you know, how would this interview look like? Or how is the prep phase of how you shortlist and all that?

Speaker A: Well, you know, it's interesting. We, um, several years ago, um, really walked away from, you know, uh, in terms of. When you try to engage with the Y on our website in terms of job opportunities, the typical site has just a list of jobs, you know, just a long list of jobs and requirements and all that kind of stuff. Ours really has a quiz, you know, we really want to know about you. So when you come on our website and you're looking, uh, for opportunities, um, there's a quiz. We ask you about yourself. We ask you what you care about. We ask you what makes you happy, what makes you motivated. Um, do you enjoy spending time with young people? Do you enjoy spending time with seniors? We, you know, we serve people at all ages and stages, so we're Trying to get at who you are and what makes you tick. M. We're not asking you, you know, the kind of, um, classic, you know, what, what jobs have you held and all that kind of stuff, that those things become important at some point. I'm, um, not. I don't want to say they're not important, but we want to know more about who you are as a human being, what makes you tick. And that's really the, that screen kind of symbolizes how we approach, um, hiring. Um, so we do, you know, we do have a set of core values that we believe deeply in. Uh, caring, honesty, respect, responsibility. But we also talk about four core operating principles, which is kind of how we operate, you know, all of our operations, no matter what you do at the wire, built around these four things. Um, and, um. So, uh, the four things are, you know, safety, engagement. Um, we're big on cleanliness. I know that's kind of an old style, old school thing, but to us, we want people to feel like when they come into a why, that it's a, um, it's. It's a place they want to be. Um, and, uh, the last one is empathy. Uh, so, um, you know, those four things are not just things that we put on pieces of paper. We build our interview guides around those, those operating principles and those values. We really try to get at those for those things when we, uh, when somebody is proceeding through the process. Um, everything is built around both the values and the core operating principles to see whether those are things. Those are the kind of things that people care about. If you don't care about those, that's fine. You know, as you said, you know, I, uh, had this phrase, you know, we'll love you, but we'll miss you. Uh, we'll miss you. But we, but, you know, and, and we don't, you know, the why is. Is not. We're not an investment bank, you know, and that's. We're not. You're not going to come to the Y and make, you know, your life's fortune. Um, you work at the Y because you really want to serve people, because you care about people, because you love seeing people succeed and develop and you love to engage with people. Uh, you love to see people reach their potential, whether it's young kids, teenagers, adults, whomever. Um, and so we have to really. If those things don't really motivate you, then you're not going to, you're. You're not going to do well, and we're not the place for you so yeah, we do spend a ton of time there. It starts like as I said, when you, if you are, you know, poking around our website, um, it shows up when you meet, you know, when you have an interview. It shows up if you get, if you get hired. It's all, the onboarding is all built around that. So it is. Um, you know, we've tried to make it structural. Right. I'm a big believer that, you know, you've gotta, you've gotta institutionalize things that matter. Um, and so it's built into the whole process. It's built into the hiring process, the onboarding process, the ongoing training process, the kind of stuff that you will learn and about how to do your job. It's all built around those things.

Speaker B: There's so many, so many questions that float in my, in my ether right now. But one question I have for you. When I was younger, um, and wasn't yet a consultant and entrepreneur, ah, I was an employee. Right. Um, I love what I do. Always, always loved human potential. And um, I became over the years learning and development experts and I have different fortune and opportunity to work with some really extraordinary companies, whatever that means. Right. Um, but I remember going into the hiring process and almost just telling them what they wanted to hear. And it sounds like I just wasn't yet able to step into my authenticity, I guess, if this makes sense and to really speak from the heart. Um, and this was a learning for me over the years. Right. And it becomes this really bland conversation where you really don't get to see the soul and the person the way you want to see somebody or the way you need to see somebody to decide are we a good match and also for the person to do the same. Right. How do you, at the Y, I guess make sure that somebody really is authentic and don't just tell you what they're, what you want to hear. Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah. And that is, I think what most people will try to do in an interview situation, tell us what we want to hear. Um, you know, I don't think there's any, uh, sort of secrets, uh, process that one or something. That's a magic bullet there. I think you really have to. It's all about listening, you know, it's about asking open ended questions. It's about asking people to talk about. I know for me when I'm hiring more senior level people, I always ask them what brings you joy. Um, I also, I off, I will always ask, you know, tell me about which, which job or experience in your life brought out the best in you. And it's. Those are not kind of the kind of questions people are expecting to hear. Right. If you walk into a typical job interview, the questions you're expecting to hear about, tell me about what you did in this job, tell me about what you did in that job. You know, it's kind of the almost wrote. And to your point, you can kind of have a canned set of responses ready. But I think if you ask people questions they're not expecting to hear that really speak to motivation, that really speak to who they are as human beings, you're going to get more authentic answers. You know, person's not, you know, hooked up to a lie detector. Right. But um, my experience is you can generally tell when somebody is speaking authentically or not. I think.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know what comes up for me. Sorry to interrupt here. It also is about how we as hiring professionals conduct the, the, the actual interview. Right. Like I just remember some interviews just so bland and so just official. You almost get like this can I be myself type thing. And I do believe that this is very different. At the Y, I have been a outdoor facilitator. I used to work with children. I used to run a called be the best you can be workshop. I love to be of service and I love children in my way. And you know, the why uses. It uses certainly more meaning than an investment. A bang as you kind uh, of. Kind of, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. Uh, it seems on paper that way. Um, so it's really all about also how you conduct the interview. You reckon?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think a lot of it is it's about how you approach it. It's, it's, you know, are you really listening? Are you sort of giving people an opportunity to talk and, and are you asking follow up questions and not just going down a list of prepared questions? Um, you know, it is to some degree I'm not trained as a journalist, but I think, you know, a good journalist, um, a good interview is like a good journalist. Right. They're constantly sort of probing deeper, deeper to really get at, in the case of a journalist, the truth, in the case of an interview, the truth about a person. Right. And um, so I mean for me personally I've, I've never had any set of interview questions in front of me and I, you know, I spent first half of my career in the private sector and I've hired a lot of people over time I've hired a lot of um, and I've never had a set of questions in front of me. Um, I've been given interview guides and I tossed them in the, in the trash can, uh, because I really, you know, I, I approach it and I encourage our recruiting, uh, team to approach it as journalists, as people who are really trying to understand, as I said, the truth about a human being. Um, and if you do that, um, and you, you do things to make the person relaxed, I think people generally start to open up. Um, you know, again, the good news is, you know, at the Y, um, I, I believe, you know, and I think our employees would say this. You know, the most of our jobs are, you know, a lot of them are very hard, but I think in general most of them bring people joy. And so, um, in a sense we may have an advantage there. And we're certainly not the only organization. But I have found, again, I've worked in multiple industries in the private sector, uh, including banking. So I don't want it to sound like I'm anti banking. So, um, I did my time and enjoyed it. But I mean, um, I have found that, um, if the most successful employees are people who truly love their work. Right. You're going to be good, you're going to be better at it if you love it. And. Well, look, there's many jobs in this world that are really tough to love, uh, understandably. But I think if you're fortunate enough to be able to run an organization where the roles involve things that are, are, um, helping human beings, um, you're, you're able, you should be able to get at, um, understanding what, what motivates people and whether, um, the kind of things that are going to lead your organization to be successful and whether they're, you know, whether they're truly going to be happy. I, I don't, you know, I don't want anyone at the Y who's not happy. I really, you know, I just don't. Um, because that's going to show up, right? It's very hard to mask. Um, and certainly, again, I don't want to claim that we've never had people that were, uh, you know, unhappy. That's not true. But, um, I have found those people are largely people that we made a hiring mistake.

Speaker B: If we. Again, talking about the industry you're in, actually, would you mind just finding a couple of words, what your core products are, uh, your core audience, maybe just to set the frame. And then I want to lead into some other questions, if that's okay with you.

Speaker A: Core audience, we're serving.

Speaker B: Yeah. And just the core products as well. Like, you know, events, you're running camps and all that.

Speaker A: Well, at the Y, we do a multitude of things. Most um, people know the Y for our um, big health and wellness centers. Um, but those are really centers of community, so you become a member. Uh, there's a lot of activities for kids, for families, uh, for seniors that help people stay active, that help people stay engaged with one another. There's um. So, uh, so we're running a whole set of health and wellness activities, but also uh, programming for families and kids. We're uh, very much engaged in early childhood education. So we're uh, running preschools and Head Start programs. We're running after school programs in schools. Uh, we do mentoring. Um, we do summer camp. You mentioned camp. It's about to start next week for us. Um, we do a lot of youth, um, enrichment work with um, all ages, particularly tweens and teens. Um, we help young people, uh, we sort of, um, help young people stay focused and motivated, uh, in trying to complete their education. Um, so we partner with schools, um, to ensure that kids stay on track academically. Um, so you know there's. We do a lot of things. Uh, we don't do just one thing. And um, that's. If you're really about building community, building healthy, engaged communities, you have to do multiple things. Um, and we do those. Uh, so, you know, there's no one singular type of job at the. Yeah.

Speaker B: And your organization that you are leading, I believe has about two and a half thousand.

Speaker A: Yeah. Mhm.

Speaker B: Staff. Is that right?

Speaker A: About 2,500 employees. Yep.

Speaker B: Right. So I would love to transition the conversation a little bit into kind of the use case that other CEOs, CHROs founders are in right now, which may not. What's the industry you would call like health industry or what's the industry that you define yourself in?

Speaker A: I guess we're in multiple industries in some degree. You know, we're certainly in the education space. We are in the health, um, help. The Montecallit health and wellness space. Uh, we're in the youth development arena. I would say those are probably the three.

Speaker B: Three biggest.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That you would sort of associate with a particular industry.

Speaker B: Yeah. So let's think about a use case, as in maybe it is, you know, the banking industries. Maybe it is, um, you know, law. It doesn't really matter what telecommunications, you know, it does oil, whatever it is. Right. On paper, uh, we would be quick to say that you are better positioned in providing staff with a sense of meaning because your product and service just uses, I guess the personal touch, whether or not, that is through community services, events, education, all of which has this very tangible, looking into somebody's eyes, um, always physical piece around, making an impact to people. Right. Uh, it's all about people for you. Now, not every company has the same setup, you know, and in fact, probably not in the m. Majority of companies, um, that are listening here probably don't see themselves in the same situation, it's probably fair to say. But what are those principles? What are those, you know, methods to hiring, kind of aligning personal values and their own mission with the company's mission. What do you think, like, going back maybe to the time when you were in banking, I believe you said. Yes. What are those things? Where on paper you would say it's a pretty boring, I don't know, it's a pretty bland type of industry. But, you know, I don't think it has to be that way. Right. I think again, it is about the intention. What do you think? How can we go about it?

Speaker A: Banking gets a bad rap. Uh, so, uh. And yeah, I was in multiple industries, and I have to say, I feel, um, every industry, every business I work for, I was, I've been fortunate that I've really enjoyed it. I've really, uh, been able to work with exceptional people. So I don't really think it matters what industry you're in, I mean, in banking. But, uh, I worked for Citibank, which is Global Bank. I mean, there's some of the brightest people and they just love. I mean, we're, we're a, uh, global enterprise. We were helping to build economies around the world. You know, so you got to really think about what is the big thing that you're trying to do. You know, again, you. Banks can sound very sort of dour and, uh, know, kind of a necessary evil. But if you think about what you're trying to do. Uh, and I, again, we, I engage with bankers still, obviously in the work I do. We have bankers, and the best bankers are. They get joy in, in helping to build, helping other businesses succeed. Right? So it's. You have to find what two things, you know, what is it? What is the biggest big thing you're trying to do? Um, and again, at Citibank, I mean, I don't even know if it was ever expressed this way, but the way I always felt, and I was very young in my career, um, was like, it was just so incredible to work for this global financial services institution that was helping to build a global economy. Right. Like, that was pretty cool. Not everyone gets to do this Right. Uh, and um, I was in the for profit education space. I helped to build for profit higher ed institutions. I mean we were helping um, people move from lower middle class to, you know, the middle class and above. Um, so we were, you know, building out a network of universities, um, around the world that uh, most of which were in developing countries. So um, I really um, I think every, the companies, no matter what industry you're in, a, you have to understand what is the big idea that you're trying to accomplish. And B, do you have people who are really excited about that? You know, again, there's obviously in every, in every institution there's highly technical jobs. Um, but the core, the people that are particularly the people that are customer facing and at the Y, 99% of our people are customer facing. Some organizations are not like that. But particularly the people who are customer facing, do they really understand what um, your big idea is? And do they get joy from what they're doing? And then the people who are not customer facing, do they get joy from serving those people? And in my view, we call it shared services, the back office functions. Um, if you want to do one of those roles for us, not only do you have to be a good accountant, but you have to get joy from helping those who are delivering all these services. Um, and if you don't, we're not the place for you.

Speaker B: So here's a thought for you I would love to lay out. Um, you know, you can't, you can't attract and have conversation with people and ask them the questions around their personal values and see if it aligns. If you're not clear about your own as a company owner or as a founder or CEO or chro right now I believe, and I would love to hear your thoughts on that John, that when like even just running this podcast, right, When I go into pre calls, the reason why I do pre calls is same. It's almost like it's a decision you're making, right? Because I have so many conversations, John, where I almost feel like I need to ask two or three times, the owner or the founder or the CEO, why do you exist? And what I'm hearing then is this standard statements about what their services are, right? This. Right. So we are selling X. And like that doesn't really, it's not really what I'm looking for. I'm looking for this thing beyond. And then I have to rehash the question and I still pivot back to this. This is commercial piece. Right? So do you think that companies at Times more than others. They are just simply not clear about or haven't really sat down and asked themselves those deeper questions that go beyond just profitability. Is that the reason why some people have the wrong people and why some people in their jobs are not happy because they weren't sold the job that they're, that the, they hadn't, they didn't have the opportunity to really figure out what they wanted to do because the hiring manager wasn't clear about what the company is all about. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I've seen it, uh, I've seen it again, I've been fortunate to be had a, uh, varied career and work around a lot of people and see, observe a lot of other organizations. And I think if you're not, you know, there's that old phrase, I, uh, don't know who really deserves credit for it. But, you know, culture trump strategy. Um, but if you're not clear what it is that makes your organization unique, uh, if you're not clear, um, how, um, working for your company, um, is a unique experience for people, you're not going to be successful. Because, uh, you know, I've been around founders and CEOs who are very strong technically, but they viewed their workforce as a commodity, right? We've seen this before. You've, I'm sure, have seen it in the work you do. I think if you view your workforce as a commodity, I, I really don't think you can have sustained success. You might have a great product, right? You may have been able, you may have some success for some short period of time, but if you view your workforce as a commodity, your customers will ultimately see that, um, and you can't sustain it. Um, I've seen it in so many different industries and so many lines of work and again around intensely smart people. And I think sometimes founders and CEOs who are often extremely bright people, um, they think it's all about, if I have the best idea, then I will be, we will be successful. Well, I, you know, I would argue having the best idea is hugely important, but that's not how you build a successful company. That's, that may be the, that may be an element of it. Um, and I, I don't, again, I, I, I don't believe you can have sustained success because people have choices. People, um, and I think particularly younger generations now, they want to have a sense of calling. You know, they really want to have a sense of purpose in their work. You know, my father's generation and even my generation, when I started, you know, it was all about, you know, get a job, stay with that company for the whole time, deal with whatever you deal with and retire from it. Well, you know, that world doesn't exist anymore. We know that. Um, and um, People, uh, you know, and we have a whole generation that has grown up with the notion of community service, that has grown up with um, a um. In an environment in which um, their personal satisfaction mattered intensely. Right. And so you can ignore all that, but I say you ignore it at your peril. And uh, that's, that's what I've seen. And I, I, um. You know, I think um, that what we try to understand at the. Why we are a Not for profit. You know, but we're a large organization that people, even though people may find joy in their work, they have other options. They, they need to continue to find that joy that you need to make, continue to understand that people are not commodities. They cannot, um, they're not going to simply do what they're told. Those. That world is over. Um, in a sense, you, you want to create a culture where um, people just know what the right thing is to do and when they, they. They're trusted. I mean obviously people need to be trained and they need to be supervised in a, um, In a positive way. But at the end of the day, um, I always say, you know, we have a million different. Every day we have a million different first impressions and we, the uh. The community is always taking its cues from our workforce. Um, and that's how we're judged. And you want people to have the right instinct. I don't care. I don't care if people make mistake. We all make mistakes. Um, you have to have a culture where people have to have the right instinct. So if they make mistakes, they're the right mistakes. They're mistakes of um, done. Uh, because they're trying to do the right thing. M. Uh. And you know, that's hard to do. I mean that's a tough thing to do. But you know, if you want to have sustained success, that's the kind of culture you need. Yeah.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. Just one last question. What do you think needs to happen here? In other industries, what would you advise? Not advice. But if you go back in time and you imagine yourself running a successful bank like Citibank for example, in the U.S. like you know, with a product that is not as customer facing other than maybe customer service that may be right or maybe wrong, but like what needs to happen here?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean the um, we live in such a competitive world. And certainly, you know, we haven't talked about the fact that, you know, AI can do a lot of roles. Right? So, um, if you are in at all a, ah, business or an industry that is serving the public, and I recognize there's some industries that that's not the case. But if you are an industry that is ultimately serving the public, um, you really have to think about your employees as ambassadors. Um, you really have to, I think you need to focus 80, 90% of your time on culture and um, strategies important. But culture, um, is critically important. I think you need to rethink how you look for people, how you do that, um, how you identify, um, talent, what you do to nurture talent, when you find it, um, that it's really, you know, on a macro basis, truthfully, the workforce is shrinking. You know, we, we have a, um, we're in a more competitive environment in terms of the workforce Now. Again, there's other trends occurring. We mentioned AI and other things which may be a countervailing, um, trend as well. But I, I, I, you know, we're simply in a more competitive environment, uh, from attracting and retaining talent. Um, and people have choices and we have young generation of people who are in the workforce and are entering the workforce who really are looking for a sense of purpose. Like I said, you know, prior generations maybe simply were looking for an opportunity to spend 30, 40 years in one place and get a pension. Um, and there's nothing wrong with that

Speaker B: world doesn't exist anymore.

Speaker A: Yeah, but that world doesn't exist. Um, and, um, I guess the other thing I would say is you asked me if I was the CEO of another entity. What you have to understand is the motivation of a CEO, particularly a founder. He or she has to understand your motivations may be different than your workforce. And so you cannot extrapolate to say why isn't everyone like me? Um, everyone is not like you. You are kind of unique to some degree. Um, you have to understand that most people are motivated in ways that are different than you are. And that is something I find with certain entrepreneurs and founders is very difficult for them to understand. Um, but again, many, you know, have, the ones that are successful, they do a lot of things right, but they, they do understand that. And I've worked for some of those. Um, and I've seen that, I've seen the evolution and it's like a light bulb going off at some point.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, I imagine. Oh, uh, John, thank you so much for this enlightening conversation. I really, I don't know. I really enjoyed your. Your calm, frank, honest, direct demeanor. You know, sometimes you get people that struggle a little bit to be vulnerable and be authentic. And, uh, I. And I thought really, you are a, uh, great example of not doing that. And I do believe that we need more leaders like that who are, uh, you know, verbalizing that we're not perfect and we don't always get it right and we have challenges because, like, who doesn't? Come on. It's. You're right. It's. It's, um. And I would love that, you know, I would genuinely love that there are more leaders like yourself out there that speak from the heart and have the intent, the intention, the rights in the right space. So thank you so much for the. For your time and, um. Yeah. Have a wonderful day.

Speaker A: Thank you. Great. Great to talk to you, Seb. I really, really enjoy.