S4e01 How To Be Bold with Ranjay Gulati

Host: What makes a great leader? Think of the best leader you've ever had. What makes them so memorable to you? What did they do for you? Did they believe in you before you even believed in yourself? Did they take a chance on you when you weren't ready yet? Did they trust you even when you hadn't earned their trust? Did they have your back even.

Host: Even at personal risk to themselves?

Host: Want to know why they did it?

Host: Then you're at the right place.

Host: In this podcast, we dig into the why through deeply personal stories of great leaders who are powered by their purpose, anchored in their authenticity, and connect who they are to how they lead in good times and bad, at, ah, crossroads and crises, who challenge status quo and existing paradigms and do different things differently. It will make you wonder what would you do if you faced a similar challenge? Join us in reimagining the leadership of the future with me, your host, Shahana Banerjee, CEO of Just Human Leadership Advisors. In this episode, we dig into what

Host: happens when deep purpose meets indomitable courage. Why leaders in organizations anchor around their purpose and and how they create impact through meaningful action.

Host: With Ranjay Gulati, eminent scholar and professor

Host: of Business Administration at Harvard University and best selling author of Deep Purpose and How to Be Bold. An educator at heart, he's on a mission to educate leaders who make a difference in the world. Welcome Ranjay. Such an incredible honor to have you on our podcast today.

Ranjay Gulati: It's, it's my pleasure to be here with you, Shahana. Delighted to be here.

Host: Wonderful. I must give you a little bit of a backstory here, Ranjay. Uh, so a few years ago we invited people from different walks of life to join our listening labs and we asked them a question. We said, think about your greatest day at work. You know, when you felt alive, when you felt a sense of accomplishment, when you felt on top of the world, felt fulfilled. And what had happened that day to make it so. And also the reverse. Uh, you had a soul crushing day at work and what happened to make it so? People shared incredible stories and we got so many insights. One of the greatest insights we got was actually about leaders. Leaders who help their people thrive and those who don't. And what was really interesting was that people didn't talk about leadership qualities or competencies or best practices. They talked about courage. So they would say things like, you know, this leader took a chance on me even though I wasn't ready yet. Or this leader trusted me when I hadn't earned their trust yet. Or this leader had My back, even at personal risk to themselves. What's even more interesting is that when we ask leaders, why do you go out on a limb for your people? They actually didn't codify these actions as courageous. They codified them as actions that live into their purpose. So it was truly fascinating. It blew my mind. And since you are the guy to talk to about both purpose and courage, here we are.

Ranjay Gulati: You know, it's fascinating you connect that, telling that story because, you know, in my mind, as an academic, you compartmentalize your thought process. When I was writing about purpose, I was thinking and writing about purpose. When I was writing about courage, I have been thinking and writing about courage. And that is an interesting story of connecting kind of courage to support somebody with purpose. And then there's a third pillar you added in there, which is the relational component of leadership that, you know, there's an old saying from Maya Angelou, People will forget what you said. People will forget what you did, but they won't forget how you made them feel.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: And in these moments, what leaders do is they elevate others by giving them a sense that I. I believe in you two. I trust you. And third, I have. I will support you.

Host: Yeah. And.

Ranjay Gulati: And, you know, we think of leadership as unconditional love. It is an unconditional love. It is conditional. You got to deliver. This is not your mother's love, but you challenge and support at the same time. So. But it's. I love the connection to courage and purpose. So I'm eager to learn from you as much today in trying to help me connect the dots in my own head.

Host: Beautifully said, Raj. So let's begin with your story. Right? So tell us about the people, the influences and experiences that have shaped you into who you are today.

Ranjay Gulati: So, you know, a few years ago, I did an exercise. I asked myself that question, and I contacted each and every one of them to thank them. You know, when you're a student, you just walk away. You move on, you get busy with life, and life goes on. Um, in fact, I'm. Believe it or not, I'm still in touch with my third grade teacher. But that's different, because my mother and she were best friends, and she lives here in Massachusetts. Um, but you know, what I discovered about what each of them had done for me is when we study, support. They had given me not just information support, which is information. They had not just given me sometimes resource support. They'd given me resources to do what I needed to do. They had not only given me appraisal Support, which is feedback that I needed. But they had also given me moral support which was I know you can do it. This sense of self belief and self confidence, you know, is something that allows us to elevate our game. And it was these four forms of support. So um, you know some of them are no longer with us. So I was too late uh, to go out and thank some of them. Uh, but some of them are still around. I came to America as an exchange student to Washington State University in 1983. So two of my most impactful professors who didn't remember me, I clearly I didn't have that much of an imba. But uh, I contacted them and I said hey, you know I was a student of yours in 1983. 84. And just um, want to thank you and here's what I'm doing. And by the way, here's a book I wrote I wanted to share with you so I shared my deep purpose book with them at the time. Um, so uh, yeah, so I think having somebody who believes in you really elevates us. Um, and this self belief can become self doubt especially when you're doing things that are risky uh, or seem out of the ordinary. Um, so that to me is very important to me was uh, finding the people in my life um, who, who really uh, and these were, most of them were educators. You know, they were my teachers.

Host: So.

Host: Right. You and I have a lot in common, Ranjay. You know, certainly, you know the pivotal, uh, the pivotal ways in which I think our mothers have helped us, the courage they had, the hope they instilled, I suppose. Um, I'd love for you to share maybe a little bit about that influence and maybe a story perhaps if you have one.

Ranjay Gulati: Yeah. So, um, so clearly my mother, you know, was a teacher, school teacher. She taught third grade in the American School. Um, and uh, and American, the American school at that time sent her for a course to Vanderbilt University to get a master's in anthropology. Uh, and it was every summer so they selected her and every summer she would go to Athens, Greece where the faculty would come and over five summers she would get her masters. Her master's thesis was about tribal Indian women who hand printed their own fabrics. In those days there was no garment export, there was no printing of these things in mass market.

Host: Yeah. Or understanding of it either.

Ranjay Gulati: Yeah. And, and she taught at the American school. And the American school had, you know, India was a poor backward country so some of the Americans who would be there would kind of look down on India and Indians And Indians, we would look up to them a little bit. So it was a bit of a class structure. My mother was very proud to be Indian. So she would start wearing these fabrics on her clothes, skirts and blouses. And then she'd go to Greece and, and all her friends wanted to buy these off of her. And so she, it was a small business she had because she was trying to have some cash. In those days you couldn't have dollars. So she would have some money to spend, uh, while she was in Europe. Um, anyway, what happened at that time was, um, the American school got into a fight with the Indian government. Uh, the Indian government insisted that they have to let go of half the. If they're going to be a tax free American school. They became the American Embassy school and half the Indian staff had to leave. So they had a lottery. And my mother, who was one of the best teachers selected to go to this, uh, course in the US her name got pulled and she had to leave the school.

Host: Uh, wow.

Ranjay Gulati: As did I. I was also a student there. So my mother was like, what am I going to do? She packs two suitcases, goes to Paris and door to door convinces three fashion houses to buy her designs.

Host: That's amazing.

Ranjay Gulati: So that's kind of her kind of taking adversity, which was like, oh my God, I lost the lottery. And ah, off she were. I didn't, I was 10 years old. I didn't fully appreciate all this stuff. But, um, I remember two conversations with my mother that kind of stand out to me. Um, you know, she was larger than life. She was, you know, uh, to me in my life. Um, one was, you know, um, she worked crazy hours and her, she was animated. Not just to have a business. It was about showing the western world about India being an advanced civilization. She wanted to, just like in American school, she wanted to show that we, India is poor, but we have beautiful things. We have beautiful, sophisticated aesthetic sensibility that is tied to our ancient civilization. So that was her thing. And, and that really animated her. It was, that was the driving force. It was what, what made it exciting to her. Um, and, um, so I was having dinner with her once and she, I was telling her about, mom, you need to slow down. This is working too hard. I wanted a summer holiday really. Uh, because we were. She had me working also. Crazy. And the mother put her fork down and she says, son, I said, mom, you need work, life balance. She says, son, what a horrible phrase. My wish for you is you never have to work a day in your life. So I Thought she's telling me about my trust fund because she was very successful by then. I said, yeah, mom, that sounds great. I don't want to work. And I agree with you, work is highly overrated. And she said, no, that's not what I'm saying. And she says, you know, my wish for you is, why do you call it work? You know, work has this negative connotation. And when you say work, life, balance, you're putting work in opposition to life. My wish is you find something that is so integral and coherent and connected to what your life is about. Work needs to do that. Work is not a job just for money. And that kind of. Again, I forgot about it. But it was kind of there in my head that could I be doing something like that where I am super animated by what I do? Um, so that was my one story. The other one, which ties to Courage, it's in my latest book, was she buys a piece of land outside Delhi. A developer really wants that land. And one day, I'm home from boarding school on the weekend, and some guy is on the gate. And the guard comes to me and says, there's some guy insisting on seeing your mom. Can you talk to him? So I go out there, I'm 14 years old, and I said, what do you want? He says, I'm from the developer. I said, no, she's not going to see you. Don't waste your time. So he said, no, five minutes. We'll never bother her again. The last time I asked her, she says, okay, send him in. So he's a big burly guy in a blazer. And he walks in and he sits down, very respectful, and he immediately takes out a blank check, signed and a piece of paper says, ma', am, whatever you want. We don't want to negotiate. Whatever you want, we are willing to pay. And my mother says, I've told you, I don't want to sell the land. It's not about the money. I don't need the money. It's not about some number. So this location is ideal. I'm finally going to have my own home. I'm going to have a design studio there. It's exactly what I want. So I can't think of any other place I would want to be. So I'm really sorry. Immediately, he gets belligerent. He says, ma', am, I'm not leaving here without your signature.

Host: Oh, my goodness.

Ranjay Gulati: And she says, excuse me, please leave now. I am not signing this document. Then he leans back and he's wearing a blazer. And he pulls his blazer back and he's got a gun tucked in.

Host: Oh my goodness.

Ranjay Gulati: Uh, now me, I'm at the door. I'm frozen. I'm analysis paralysis. Should I call the guard? Should I jump on this guy? Is he bluffing? Is he this? Is he that? I'm like mental modeling every scenario here. My mother, without hesitation, 5ft 1 inches tall, leaps out of her chair in the sofa seat she's in, walks across and slaps him across the face.

Host: Oh my God.

Ranjay Gulati: She doesn't even see it coming. And she says, how dare you come to my house, try to bully me, and now try to threaten me? Get out of here now. It was a brilliant strategic move because he was caught off guard. Her security guard at the gate heard the commotion and came running in. And this guy ran out of there so fast he forgot his checkbook.

Host: And.

Ranjay Gulati: And I asked afterwards and mom, that was crazy. Weren't you scared? He had a gun. And she said, yes, I saw the gun and yes, it was scary. But. But she said, just remember, just because you're scared doesn't mean you do nothing. Just m. Because you're scared. So I realized that most of us, when we have to deal with fear, can get frozen.

Host: Right?

Ranjay Gulati: Now remember, the two most common emotions in the workplace that humans experience are m. Fear and anger.

Host: True, true.

Ranjay Gulati: That's what a Wharton Professor Segal barsed research showed. Yeah. So here we are. Experiencing and fear, by the way, also is a primal, survival human emotion.

Host: Right?

Ranjay Gulati: It's hardwired in the primitive brain, in the reptilian brain. I hate to disappoint your listeners, but all of us are descendants of cowards. The ones who survived are the ones who ran for cover, not the ones who went to fight the dangerous animals they encountered.

Host: Right?

Ranjay Gulati: Freeze flight. This is the normal human response. So it made me realize I was ashamed of the story, honestly, because I myself froze. I was embarrassed. You know, I was 14 by now. I felt like, uh, the boy in the house, the man and I should be protecting my mother. And I, of course, did nothing of the sort. So those are my kind of images of my mother. You know, purpose came out of that first conversation. Courage came out of that second conversation.

Host: Yeah. And what a full circle moment it is. You've written a book on both.

Ranjay Gulati: Yes, I know. Kind of.

Host: What?

Host: Ah.

Host: When you look back, Ranjay, what are some of the turning points that you think helped you define your personal purpose? You certainly saw it with your mom as you looked at it for yourself. How did you Go about, you know, what, what shaped it.

Ranjay Gulati: So somewhere early in my journey, maybe it's because I was. I was connected to the people who taught me, the educators I had. I went to St. Stephen's College, and I, um, had some incredible teachers who really took an interest in educating me. It made me realize that I wanted to be in the world of scholarship. My mother also, by the way, was also nudging me there because she herself wanted to do a PhD, but she never could.

Host: Right. And.

Ranjay Gulati: And, and I was a good student. So I was a good student only on things that I cared about. So. So, um. So. So I had this idea that I wanted to be somewhere in the academe. Um, but as you start. So I'm. So I made some choices. I can tell you about my Seattle time when I was at Microsoft and how I left and went to do my PhD at Harvard. Um, and, uh. But I will tell you one story that Fast forward. So I become an academic. Once you join academia, is it is publish or perish. It's actually publish and perish, not or perish. So I am immersed in research. You know, I am immersed. And there's a. I won't say a gun on your head, but you're a survivalist. You know, if you don't publish your research, you're out. Right. In fact, after my first two years, my boss called me in and said, you haven't published anything in two years. Think of yourself on probation because if you don't have anything published in the next year or so, you should be looking for a job.

Host: Oh, wow.

Ranjay Gulati: So it's pretty real. In your face.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: So I. Anyway, thankfully it works out. I get. I. I have tenure. I am teaching. We've been doing this for now a while, and teaching is kind of a chore. It's like a necessary thing you do, but, you know, research. Your whole head is now in your research program. And somewhere I had lost my original instinct, which was I wanted to be an educator first and a researcher as well. Both. Um, So I am, um. I had two encounters. One, uh, I. When I was at Northwestern. Uh, we have an evening program downtown Chicago, so. And Evanston is the main campus. And this one professor put a note out there, an email saying, I don't drive at night. If anyone is going at night on these evenings, I would love a ride. So I offered to do that. I was driving on those same evenings. And this was a retired McKinsey partner named Bob Neuschel. And he must have been by then already in his 70s and he didn't drive at night because of vision issues and so he appreciated the ride and we would ride down together and Bob had himself written a book about servant leadership and he said Ranjay,

Host: I uh,

Ranjay Gulati: would talk to him like how did you, how are you a consultant? What did you do? And he said you know the thing you have to understand is unlock for me was when you are in service of others it brings out a different you.

Host: Yeah, yeah. I couldn't totally agree.

Ranjay Gulati: I didn't understand, I didn't understand it. He said what do you mean? I, I, but I would listen to him and he would talk about this is how as a consultant also it was not about getting more business from the client, it was about how can I help the client. He said for him a transition to academia was the same. He was here to help his students. He didn't have to teach, he was retired but he chose to teach and he loved to teach, you know and uh, and, and he was like all into it all in anyway I listened to him. I kind of sort of, you know sometimes message, you're not ready to receive a message and but I heard it um, a few years later I get an email from a student, former student of mine. It says I'm coming into town, I'd love to meet you. I said sure, happy to meet you. You know uh, and I forwarded to my assistant and my sister knew by default all meetings are 30 minutes. So she proposed to him a 30 minute slot and he uh, must have pushed back for more time and I thought he's coming to ask me for help for a job because sometimes when they call you help me. I don't know, I'm leaving my job, career transition, can you help? And I, I'm happy to help but I'm like I have a busy schedule. I'm like oh, I gotta optimize my schedule. And so my assistant comes to me and says Ranjay, um, this student is asking for more time. So I said fine, go ahead, give it to him. Then my assistant comes back and says he's asking if he can have lunch with you. So I said fine, go ahead. So I have lunch with this student, um, and I said so how come you're in town? So he says well uh, I'm not in town. I flew in to see you.

Host: Wow.

Ranjay Gulati: I said oh. I said you did? I said well how can I help you? How can I, you know, how uh, can I uh. What do you need? What do you want me to do for you? I really want to help. Now you've flown into town. He said, no, I don't need anything. Uh, he had a very successful career. He was doing great in what he was doing. He said, I, uh, just came to thank you because, uh, I don't know if you know this, but your course had a huge impact on me and it made a meaningful difference in my life. And so it's on my bucket list that I one day I need to come and thank you, and that's why I'm here. I was so ashamed and embarrassed. It made me hit me that, you know, uh, I had somehow been letting my students down, that I had not fully understood that as an educator you have the possibility to really have an impact on others.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: And that I wasn't. Then I remembered Bob neutral. And I said to myself, like, you know, why do you do this? And what is your, you know, yes, you want to be a researcher, yes, you're going to keep writing, but do not forget that there are, uh, recipients at the other end and clarify your own purpose and intention. Not, uh, only did I then decide to go and thank everyone who had impacted me that he had done, but it forced me to think about my own kind of what is my own purpose? Like, what was my animating force m that was leading me to do the things I was doing? And that clarity of intention, once you have it, um, uh, I found is, can be very enabling because all of life is about trade offs. All your life, you're making trade offs, you have finite amount of time and you have infinite number of things you can do. And, uh, so as we think, as we navigate a life full of choices and trade offs, we have to ask ourselves, what's my purpose? If you will. So, so I have to. That student, uh, I am forever indebted to because his visit to me really was a wake up call.

Host: So what did you land on finally as your purpose?

Ranjay Gulati: So I'm very fortunate because my purpose aligns very closely with my employer's purpose. Um, the organization I work for, Harvard Business School. Our purpose is we educate leaders who make a difference in this world.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: Positive difference in this world.

Host: Really powerful.

Ranjay Gulati: Yeah, Right. And I think that's kind of very closely aligned to my own purpose that I am here to educate leaders who make a difference in this world. Now, if you ask me about my personal purpose, it also connects to wanting to leave, you know, be there for my family, for my friends and for the world at large.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: So am I having a positive impact in whatever way I can um, so this making a difference in the world is a very important, uh, piece of the puzzle. Whether it's through educating leaders, whether it is through research, whether it is through my friends and my family, all that is kind of connected.

Host: And why is that so important to you?

Host: Um,

Ranjay Gulati: look, I think ultimately everybody wants to have, uh, you know, some impact in the world beyond themselves. And whether it's out of ego wanting to be relevant, uh, or whether it is out of. I, uh, don't want, I don't know how to untangle those. Or it is about certain altruistic impulses that all of us have, by the way. Right. We all have altruistic impulses. We just kind of suppress them and bury them. And so I think, uh, maybe it's a mix of both. Right. That, um, so I, and I've, you know, I've studied entrepreneurs and business leaders. The great ones are not driven by some personal aggrandizement story. It's very much about wanting to have an impact, uh, even if it. And not like save the planet kind of impact necessarily. I want to transform this market. Right. I mean, Howard Schultz starting Starbucks was the third place. I want people to have a place to congregate. America is a lonely country and they have no place to meet. And if I can provide them that place of congregation that addresses a human

Host: need, hopefully it brings the world together, closer together.

Ranjay Gulati: So how so? I, in fact, wrote an article that. About how startups go from big ideas to grand ideals. And, you know, if you look at Lyft, when Lyft was started, the two founders were living in Los Angeles and they felt in a highly alienating, isolating, commuting environment, if you didn't have a car of your own, you were out of luck.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And so the creating possibility. I looked at the founder of Mum's World, the largest kind of, um, um, B2C platform for young mothers in the Middle East. It was, really became a women's health website. Mona Attaya, who started it, started it not saying, I want an E commerce and I'll make money selling diapers. No, it was like, I'm a mother. I've seen how hard it is to get access to information and other products that women mothers need. And I want to be the place.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: So, uh, you know, so these people are kind of unlocking possibility.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And, and I think, you know, I fundamentally believe business can be a force for good. And so if you look at many of these business leaders, we. There are some who are not necessarily that way. And they're driven by self interest and greed and personal affluent wealth. So there's plenty of that too. And uh, they're not either or either, you know.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: The. All these people I'm talking about wanted to make a business. You know, my mother wanted to have a business that gave her a livelihood.

Host: Sure.

Ranjay Gulati: So you connect this ideal of wanting to have an impact in a profitable way. In a profitable way.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: Um, and uh, and. And that becomes part of your legacy, that becomes part of your story.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And um, I think it's fulfilling.

Host: There's so many lessons in what you said, Ranjay, and you know, one critical insight that perhaps stands out uh, for me. And I think I see that in your story. I certainly see that mirrored in my own. But I also see that in so many leaders that I've worked with and perhaps you have as well, which is that, you know, many leaders have this moment of adversity in their early years. Right. Or even sometimes later. But you know, that moment of adversity and personal challenge creates this force for wanting to overcome it, but not just for yourself, but for others as well. Right. And so it's almost like your personal challenge transforms into a personal purpose at some point along the way and that's really powerful and that's, uh, you know, I don't know if that resonates with you at all.

Ranjay Gulati: So look, people have written about crucible moments. Uh, um, I know a couple of my good friends have written a book actually about crucible moments and how those can define you.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: Um, if you look at the work on resilience by Martin Seligman at Penn, you know, he says the. One of the biggest predictors of resilience in dealing with adversity is prior setbacks. And look at being able to come through them. Because once you've been through setbacks, you know, there is another side and you can do it. And um, so I actually studied this in my courage book. I have a chapter on this and I call it the kind of can do spirit.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: And, and if you've done it before and you've had setbacks before and you still came through it, it's this can, can do spirit. And one of the studies I talk about is a study by a Stanford psychologist, Albert Bandura, who hired Stanford undergraduates who were terrified of snakes. The technical term is ophidiophobes. People who can't even like. It's not like I'm scared of snakes. No, no, I'm terrified of snakes. Okay. I can't even See a picture of a snake, and he hires them, and they're going to get paid, and. And they're going to watch videos and slight exposure to snakes and eventually maybe touch and hold a snake. Okay, well, uh, and. And a harmless snake, a corn snake. These corn snakes are six feet long, so they look terrifying, but they don't bite. They are harmless.

Host: Huh.

Ranjay Gulati: I think more than half the students dropped out, but the other ones who did it and went through with it, not only did they successfully do the study, but they reported a heightened sense of self efficacy.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: If I can overcome my. One of my biggest fears, which is fear of snakes, I can overcome anything.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: So you're absolutely right. Research bear. And the, uh, he calls. I called it confidence in my book, but I like his phrase better. He called it self efficacy. M. The ability to come through.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And I think you're right that people who have done it before come through setbacks before, have a heightened ability to take them on again. M. Uh, one of the most impressive leaders I encountered was, uh, Ann Mulcahy, former CEO of Xerox. And Ann took a company that was almost bankrupt, literally weeks away from running out of cash at that scale, with 100,000 plus employees. And they had SEC investigation going on for reporting issues. Their auditor was trying to leave. The CFO had quit. Um, and, you know, it was a mess.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And she. In the case study, she allowed us to describe a moment where she just was driving home and she had a husband and two young kids, boys. And she pulled up her car on the Merritt Parkway, which is the road going home for those who live near New York City. They'll know what I'm talking about. And she just stopped. And she was overwhelmed. She says, uh, and most leaders don't let us describe these kind of moments.

Host: Right, Right.

Ranjay Gulati: They're like, oh, no, no. Never had it. And to her credit, she let us describe this moment, and she says, you know, I just had to sit down. And she checked her voicemails, and by coincidence, there was two voicemails. One from one of her direct reports saying. And one from one of her board members, both saying, I know how hard it is. I know it looks impossible, but, you know, just want you to know that we believe in you. We know you're gonna do it. We know you're gonna get us through this. And that was all she needed to hear.

Host: Wow, that's amazing. By the way, I've loved that episode of your podcast, I have to say.

Ranjay Gulati: Well, she's one of my favorite leaders.

Host: This podcast is brought to you by

Host: Just Human Leadership Advisors. We specialize in executive coaching and a broad range of human capital solutions. To learn more, Visit us at JustHuman IO. And now back to the podcast.

Host: You know, this whole idea of purpose seems a bit daunting and overwhelming for many, right? Because it sounds like this big thing. It's like the why do you exist? Kind of, you know, conversation, which is so hard for most people. And so how do you really find your purpose? Do you have maybe a story or two about a leader? Perhaps you witnessed their journey that you'd like to share.

Ranjay Gulati: So, you know, uh, let's, uh, separate our two ideas. One is life purpose from.

Host: Sure.

Ranjay Gulati: What I want to achieve in work. Purpose.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And so, uh, I've seen the. Why do I, you know, people do these exercises. Why do I come to work? Yeah, why do I come to work? Like, why? Come on. And, and, and many will say I come to work to make a living and have a good lifestyle and support my family and my children and everything else. Um, m. So in one company where they did this, why do you come to work? The first reason was universally to support, have a good lifestyle, support a stable income, etc, etc, your hygiene things. Right. The second one would go to more I, uh, would call, uh, engagement things. I want to be around smart people and work in a positive culture. And I want to, you know, they would report the third. By the time you got to third and fourth, it was very hard. But that's where the interesting thing came out that I come here to feel like I'm having an impact. Right. It's what you call inspired work. What inspires me. So the first thing fills my hygiene satisfies me. The second one engages me. The third level inspires me. And that was the hardest one to write about. So you have to ask yourself, like, and if you're not inspired at work, geez, you know, you got to change something. Either change your attitude or change your job. Uh, but clearly one of the two is problematic. I say attitude because in the original study on inspired work called job crafting, researchers found that in a hospital in New York, one third of janitors reported being inspired at work.

Host: Wow.

Ranjay Gulati: This shocked them because in these janitors, when asked, they said, oh, I'm not a cleaner. Uh, I'm not a cleaner. I'm a helper. I get to help people who are very sick. And I see the results of my work. They are so grateful to me. Every day I come to work and I'm helping people and I Feel they're less fortunate than me. I may have less money, but I have health and they don't.

Host: Right, right.

Ranjay Gulati: And I get to be helpful to others in time of their need. So if a, uh, janitor can find some inspiration at work.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: I think so can others. And I think is. So leaders have to go through a journey. Um, and one of them that I actually wrote about also was Satya Nadella, whom I interviewed for my Deep Purpose book. Ah. And it was interesting just to see kind of how he talks about in his book actually. He talks about in Resetting Microsoft, he talks about how he had had a son with special needs. How that had a profound impact on him as a person. How it made him realize that his purpose had to be to empower others. And as a technologist, he found technology such an empowerer of others. His own son, who was paraplegic, um, you know, by virtue of technology, he loved music and. But he couldn't express what he wanted to listen to. Right. He had no oral means of communicating, but with technology, he could choose the music.

Host: Wow.

Ranjay Gulati: So he was able to exercise agency.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: In even a small way.

Host: That's amazing.

Ranjay Gulati: Made him realize that my work is enabling that.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: That is so liberating. And if all of us can experience that kind of feedback loop from our work.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: Whether you're bringing joy to your customers, whether you're solving your customers problems, whether you're helping your employees.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: How are you able to have a positive impact? Ah. When we began, we were chatting. I told you, in a case I just taught yesterday, um, one of the punchlines is this leader saying that as a leader, you are the architect of the context in which work gets done. And context matters. You know, we know that it's not individual, only personality. The context in which people are working changes how they experience work. And that's what leaders need to do. Um, in this case, which is about a bank in Singapore, DBS bank, the nickname of the bank used to be Damn Bloody Slow. It was one of the bottom rated banks in Singapore. And Piyush Gupta, uh, comes in as CEO and he wants to transform the bank.

Host: What a turnaround story it was.

Ranjay Gulati: Yes. And one person tells him, another CEO tells him. He said, I want to give you some advice since you want to make this a digital bank and a modern bank, and you have all these old fuddy duddies there. He said, you can't turn sheep into wolves, so you've got to cull the sheep, bring in the wolves. And Piyush Decided. Yeah. So Piyush decided that he was. That he would disagree with this gentleman. And that gentleman had successfully turned around his company.

Host: Mhm.

Ranjay Gulati: So it wasn't like somebody who was not successful is a very successful person.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: But Spiyush said to himself, he says, my father is 80 years old, and I see my father on his mobile device now in India, paying his bills, buying groceries, really kind of evolving himself. He said, I do believe that sheep can become wolves with the right kind of training, right kind of support, and the right kind of context. So he leads this incredible turnaround, right, where not only do they become the best bank in Singapore, but, uh, they become the best bank in Asia, and then they rated the best bank in the world.

Host: Absolutely, Absolutely fantastic story.

Ranjay Gulati: Uh, and not culling any sheep. There is no. He said, you can. So the punchline, you can turn sheep into wolves.

Host: What an amazing story. It's also really fascinating. I mean, Satya story, for example, there is almost this force multiplier effect that happens when your personal purpose, uh, aligns or shapes, I suppose, in some way your organization's purpose. And that's truly like a force multiplier effect that is unleashed. So that's pretty, very cool as well.

Ranjay Gulati: Well, I'll tell you where I got that from, actually. Um, uh, Satya was at that time in conversations with the coach of the Seattle Seahawks named M. Pete Carroll.

Host: Carol. Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And Pete Carroll was born in Marin county in Northern California, which is like, you know, New Age central, and was very interested in kind of how do you motivate human beings and how do you really make this happen? How do you make them feel deeply connected? In fact, one of the people I talked to was telling me about how at one point he was even looking at. Never did. I don't know if he did anything with it. In the Native American tribes, they used to have something called the long body. And the long body was an idea that the tribe is all one body. And how. And what was happening was that if they had no phones back then. Right. Or any way to communicate, but they believed that if anybody in that tribe was in danger, m far away, they could feel it. They were so connected to each other, they could feel each other's anxiety, and then they would send somebody to help. Wow. Uh, now, whether it's true or not or whether it's imaginary, I wasn't there. And I want to experiment and study it. But the idea was you can take a group of people and make them feel intensely connected to each other. So Pete's idea was to take his team and make them feel connected to each other. Because, uh, then you're not just playing for yourself, you're playing for each other. You're playing for the team, you're playing for the coach, you're playing for your fans. And guess what?

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: When you are doing something for something bigger than yourself, you likely exert yourself even harder. You might think self interest is the ultimate pinnacle of effort. It is. It does make people will do extraordinary things for self interest and self effort. But when you are doing something for something larger than yourself, it brings out a whole new you.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: That's the leader's job. And so Pete's mantra for his team contrasted m. The team mantra for the New England Patriots, which is also very successful, was do your job. That was the. We had fans chanting T shirts, do your job. Do your job. That was Bill Belichick's model. Pete's model was I'm in. I'm in. Brings out a whole different view.

Host: Yeah. So true. So true. Thank you for sharing that story. Ranjay, you are clearly at the pinnacle of achievement as an academic, as a prolific author, as an audit podcaster. What is one message that you're trying to get across to leaders across the globe?

Ranjay Gulati: I don't know about success or pinnacle. I have a long way to go. I only see a big mountain ahead of me. Um, but, you know, I'd like to believe that I study how to unlock organizational and human potential. I think that, you know, there are barriers that we create sometimes that hold us back individually and collectively.

Host: True.

Ranjay Gulati: And I would like to believe that I am trying to help us understand how can we perform at our fullest potential as human beings as well as, as organizations. And there is science, so good social science research to help us understand how to do that. Let me start at the organizational level. The fact that most people at work, the most common emotions at work are fear and anger, that is not. That is a sad testimony to how we are organizing ourselves at work. Right. The, um, fact that people talk about experiencing regret and disappointment with what they want to achieve themselves personally is also unfulfilled potential.

Host: True.

Ranjay Gulati: And, uh, and if you look at great athletes, by the way, I've seen how unlocking. I've been now looking at athletes, professional athletes. How does Simone Biles do what she does? Right, Right. How does Katie Ledecky do what she does? How did Michael Jordan do what he did?

Host: Yeah.

Host: They seem to always find like this next gear, this next level of performance

Ranjay Gulati: somehow because they're competing with Themselves, they have decided to unlock themselves. They are not bound by external constraints by others, what others are accomplishing.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: They are driven by their own kind of self understanding of what they might be capable of achieving. And they do have setbacks. Simone Biles had a bout of twisties in the Tokyo Olympics and withdrew. And it took her three years to come back, but she did came back roaring in Paris in the Olympics. So how do these people maintain, sustain and really elevate themselves? And they keep striving and keep doing it. Uh, to me that there's a lot we can learn of how they're able to stay calm in the face of kind of stressful moments. It's, it's micro moments. It's also macro thinking. It's both micro and macro thinking. So my hope is that I can in some small way help people unlock individual and organizational potential.

Host: Beautifully said, Ranjay. And the takeaway I think for leaders is that even when you think everything is going beautifully, there are still things that are barriers that are that need unlocking. Right. You have to find that gear, that next gear, that next level, and there is help available to be able to do that.

Ranjay Gulati: Actually, Shahana, I would even go a step further. There is something that, um, Lou Gerstner called the success trap. When you become successful, quote unquote successful, you feel successful. Everyone is writing about you, you know.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: It's the beginning of the end. It's the beginning of the end. Somebody had a crazy idea. He took all the companies mentioned in three amazing books.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: In Search of Excellence. Good to Great, Built to Last. And he said, let me create a dummy stock portfolio of stocks of those companies in the year the book came out. So imagine that the book came out or even the year prior or the month off. I want to see if I own those companies. Would I do better than the stock market? First thing is many of the companies in those books are gone.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: And if you did buy that portfolio, you would barely keep up with the market.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: So what does it tell us? It tells us that success is so ephemeral and fleeting.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: That you know how to stay hungry and keep pushing is a very. Especially in the face of success is incredibly hard. Even in small companies, by the way, not just large companies. I have seen startups that achieve early success and then they go off the rails or they're a one trick pony. That's it.

Host: What drove you to write deep purpose in 2022? And then now your latest absolute bestseller, how to Be Bold. They are both incredibly, I Think defining books for our time. So please tell us a little bit more about what drove you to write them.

Ranjay Gulati: So if you told me 10 years prior that I was going to write a book about purpose, I would have said you're crazy. Or about courage, I'd say you're absolutely crazy. Zero chance. I studied. Much of my research was on growth strategies of businesses. My early research was on alliances and acquisitions.

Host: Mhm.

Ranjay Gulati: And on what I call inorganic growth. And then after that was on customer centricity and silo management and organ org design and how those unlock growth opportunities in businesses. So I was studying. That was what my topic was. I would say a couple of things happened. Um, I was taking a sabatical and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to study. Um, full disclosure, I was working with Larry Fink and Blackrock at the time and Larry was writing these public company letters to CEO saying they should have a purpose. And I was having a debate with him that why should an investor care about purpose?

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: And, and he was clarifying that purpose is not some ESG CSR initiative the way it was painted later as some kind of work construct. It was just basically saying as an investor you want businesses to think long term.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And uh, a very powerful way to get them to think long term is asking what is your purpose?

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And he too was influenced by. Then I had talked to Satya Nadella and Satya, I asked him, satya, how did you turn around Microsoft? I had read his book and he said, ranjay, you need to have a new strategy. So nail down the strategy. Second, you need to have organizations with simplified and collaborative. So fix the organization. I said, got it. Third, fix the culture. I said, got it. That was exactly what I taught. Strategy, organization, culture. So I said, that's excellent. That's exactly what I teach. So you know, we're on the same page. And he said, ranjo, you're missing something. There's a fourth element. I said, what is that? He said, purpose. You need a purpose to unlock all of these other things.

Host: Right? Right.

Ranjay Gulati: And I am rolling my eyes thinking, empowering others to achieve more, which is what Microsoft purpose. I'm like, really? And he said, no, no, you don't understand that. The purpose is not the statement. It's the nine months we spend debating to get to those words. It's how we use those words. Having a North Star, uh, creates some constants in a turbulent business.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: It creates an orienting framework. It gives you the ability to kind of understand where you're Trying to go.

Host: Right.

Host: And.

Ranjay Gulati: And so just remember that. So I kind of got intrigued by that hypothesis. And then I found so many companies that had turned around their businesses. Etsy had turned around Purpose, Lego had done a turnaround. Purpose. You know, and I could go on and on, you know, and so. And this is not everyone who studied purpose would always talk about Patagonia and Unilever and Whole Foods.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: And I said, it's not just those three. In fact, I don't even mention those three in my book because everybody's so used to saying, oh, yet another one of those. Right?

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: Nothing wrong with those, by the way. But those are extreme examples.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: So it became clear to me that this was a kind of a constant, that it was a way to unlock the organization. And if you really want to put your purpose to work, uh, as we say, you know, you really need to go deep with it. That's why the book is called Deep Purpose. I wanted to use purpose. But so many companies think of purpose as mission statements, and they just kind of blow it off. So I had to call it Deep Purpose because it was about unlocking value, unlocking growth in individuals and organizations.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: So that was. It was kind of a hobby project, really. And then this leadership thing was another hobby project of mine. So I guess I would. I don't know. Hobby sounds like a trivial thing because each of them has taken me almost five years to write.

Host: Passion project.

Ranjay Gulati: Yes, passion projects. Um, and. But I had to really understand courage was something that also I didn't really plan to write. I was looking at impactful leaders who did extraordinary things. And originally the courage project was about collective courage. It was about organizational courage, organizations doing this. As I got into it, I realized that you can't ignore the individuals who are in these stories. Then I got into individuals. I started looking at individuals outside of organizations. And earlier I was going to have nine chapters on organizational courage and one on individual courage. And now I have six on individual and three on organizational. And, um, and I think it really. Um. What I found interesting is, first of all, the word courage is used everywhere and anywhere. Companies today left, right and center, putting courage into their corporate values. Yeah, but I don't think we fully understand what courage is. Um, for instance, it took me a while, at least, to understand that courage is not the. Is not the absence of fear, it's action in the face of fear.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: It took me a while to understand that fear is a primal human emotion that originates in uncertainty.

Host: Right, right.

Ranjay Gulati: It took me a while to Understand that uncertainty is not the same as risk.

Host: Right, right.

Ranjay Gulati: It took me then a while to understand that when you have fear, it can. It doesn't lead to fight or flight. It leads to freeze, flight, and occasionally fight.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And so that was just the preamble into the.

Host: Pretty mind blowing, I have to say. That is pretty mind blowing. And that is your fear equation as well, right? Yes, part of it. Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: But that is just the beginning of the book. Then I had to say, okay, now you got fear. How do you resource yourself to take action in the face of fear?

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: Whether it was my mother's story or anybody's story, how do these people. You know, Steve Jobs is a great example of that, too. We have these glorified versions of the solo CEO. Jobs was surrounded by lieutenants who really were his support squad.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: So, you know, Joni, I've being one of them. So there's so many other examples of such instances. So I came to realize that we need to bring courage back into the leadership conversation. Courage is a legitimate aspiration. All of us should be willing to say the word courage or winning. A coral cousin of courage is winning that a lot of businesses use today. Winning, uh, spirit, winning mindset, you know, just winning, playing to win. Um, so the language can be slightly different, but I think the intent is similar.

Host: Yeah.

Host: One of the things that we see, especially in organizations today, is that leaders face almost severe existential conflicts at work because of all the pressures that are on them. So these could be identity conflict, values or conflict, purpose conflict. It could be just an ethical conflict or an interest conflict. And these often become like the crossroads or crises or the make or break moment for leaders. And it's almost like there are some who get swayed by the wind and go whichever way the wind blows. And there are others who stand steadfast. They are the lighthouse in the storm. And so how do you think of some of this? And is there perhaps the story of a leader that comes to mind when you think of this special challenge of being able to stick to your purpose and live your purpose in turbulent times?

Ranjay Gulati: So, look, first of all, you can't clarify your purpose in the eye of the storm. So if you think you're going to do your purpose while you're dealing with a crisis, ain't going to happen.

Host: Right, Right.

Ranjay Gulati: So you need to. The best time to have a, uh, purpose is when you are not in a crisis rather than in a crisis.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: And I think it's important to remember that you need to put your purpose to work Purpose is an orienting framework. Not only for you.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: But for others around you who are trying to sway you. Once they understand that this is real, this is not fake, um, then it creates expectations for others. Is also clear. They are saying, hey, listen, we have to live around our purpose now. You know, so in the case of Etsy, for instance, you know, Josh Silverman, once they clarified their purpose, they were being pulled in so many directions saying, oh, we need to do that, we need to do this. He said, no, we are only doing three things. Not four, not five. They're just three.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: If it doesn't fit into that, I have. Sorry, I have to say no. Yeah, that's our purpose. So I think is. Trade offs are much easier to make when you have a clarifying framework. It doesn't give you the answers.

Host: Right.

Ranjay Gulati: And you still have to now. So. And I think that's. I would just make sure that's very clear. Find your purpose before the storm, not during a storm. And use it. And use it in the store, reference it, talk about it, say that's. It's not who we are.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: It's not what we believe in. Um, you know, there are so many examples of the same. I'll give you one. Chipberg at Levi Strauss.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: You know, they had some. They opened retail stores and one of the big issues was they had a few instances where somebody walked in with a gun, you know, gun rights and so forth. So Chip and his team decided they were going to make a statement, a stance. No guns in our stores.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: This led to a backlash. Ah, Boycott.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And all that stuff. But he was like, you know what? It's not who we are. Yeah, sorry. No guns in our stores. We don't want to make our associates feel unsafe in any way.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: So they're important to us. And, and so sometimes you have to take a stance. Um, cvs, you know, big decision to pull cigarettes from their stores.

Host: Yes. So true.

Ranjay Gulati: Big decision at a very high cost. But actually their sales went up afterwards. Their overall sales. Yes. They went down for a bit, but overall went up. So, you know, you got to stand for something.

Host: Yeah. And, um, great stories. Thank you for sharing that. So many more questions for you, Ranjay, but we have tried to put some of them together in a quick, rapid fire. If you're game. I up for it.

Ranjay Gulati: Go for it. Go for it.

Host: How would you like to be remembered?

Ranjay Gulati: I'm not sure. I'm trying to look to be remembered. You know, we're all kind of specks of sand, uh, specks of, you know, in the. In the sand. Um, I mean, I think is all I want to think about for myself, uh, is that, you know, I try to make. Empower others to achieve more awesome, unlocking potential.

Host: Yeah. What's one thing you've learned about yourself that surprised you?

Ranjay Gulati: I, too, can be courageous. You know, I still go back to that moment where I froze and my mother didn't. This time around, if it happened to me, I hope it never does. I will know what to do.

Host: Oh.

Ranjay Gulati: I will not be standing frozen.

Host: And you've done a whole bunch of adventure things, so. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for sharing. That's an amazing one. Um, you bump into little Ranjay, 10 years old, working in his mom's store. What would you say to him?

Ranjay Gulati: Keep doing what you're doing? I was so animated by athletics in those days. I loved athletics, and it taught me about resilience. It taught me about setbacks. It taught me about plowing through. It taught me about my own physical limitations. Um, it taught me about team spirit and team sports.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: And I worked incredibly hard. My mom's business. I would only tell myself, don't be so bitter about it. It was formative learning moments when I. Even though my summers were spent, uh, in factories and, uh, suppliers and visiting, uh, buyers, um, I learned a lot over there.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: Served me well.

Host: Yeah. Okay. What's one piece of career advice that you'd like to share with our listeners today?

Ranjay Gulati: At the risk of sounding like a cliche, I. I, uh, think we have to, in this day and age, think of work not as work.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: The word work itself has gotten into this. Kind of has a negative association with it. And I think is we all should be asking ourselves, where can I find. Where are the avenues for me, whether you want to call it ikegai? There's so many versions of this out there. They're all saying the same thing. Find a way to connect your personal aspirations along with some positive impact with some economic return.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: Uh, and if you can find that intersection, you got it made.

Host: Couldn't agree more. I think there is something about the convergence of purpose, values, and actions that create this equilibrium where I think peace lives. If that makes sense.

Ranjay Gulati: Yeah.

Host: Um, what's one step forward that you'd ask everyone to try as our mindful leadership challenge of the month?

Ranjay Gulati: You know, not to toot my own horn about my new book about how to be bold. I think we all need to try to do something that's a little scary.

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: To. You need to learn. We all need to learn to live with the discomfort of fear. Fear is uncomfortable, okay? It's scary. But how do we make ourselves think about those kids terrified of snakes?

Host: Yeah.

Ranjay Gulati: How do we create, Take ourselves out of our, what we call proverbial comfort zone? Try something. I mean, I learned to. I lived in Seattle, not far from where you are. And the reason I know where you live is because I flew over there, around over there in the San Juan Islands, and. And I was terrified of flying. I was terrified of heights. And, um, yeah, it was scary for a while, but, you know, you get over it. And so don't underestimate your own capacity to embrace fear, make fear your friend, and then maybe even outwit fear.

Host: Yeah. Oh, that's powerful. How to outwit fear. And you know where you can find more information on that? Check out how to be Bold. Um, Ranjay, so much wisdom. Um, so many lessons. What a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your wisdom with our listeners today.

Ranjay Gulati: Well, thank you so much because very few people have read both the books, I think, and connected the dots. So you are one of the very, very few who's done that. And you masterfully wove through the two together and forced me to think so. Thank you. Really enjoyed it.

Host: Thank you so m much. Such a joy.

Host: Thank you for joining us. We'd love to hear from you. Please rate, review and subscribe to the Mindfulness Leadership Podcast brought to you by Just Human. We are a growth accelerator for our clients, helping your people and businesses thrive through human centered, uh, ecosystem based people solutions. To learn more, Visit us at JustHuman IO and schedule a 30 minute free call with us.