S4e04 Culture By Design with James White

Speaker A: What makes a great leader? Think of the best leader you've ever had? What makes them so memorable to you? What did they do for you? Did they believe in you before you even believed in yourself? Did they take a chance on you when you weren't ready yet? Did they trust you even when you hadn't earned their trust? Did they have your back even. Even at personal risk to themselves? Want to know why they did it? Then you're at the right place. In this podcast, we dig into the why through deeply personal stories of great leaders who are powered by their purpose, anchored in their authenticity, and connect who they are to how they lead in good times and bad, at, ah, crossroads and crises, who challenge status quo and existing paradigms and do different things differently. It will make you wonder what would you do if you faced a similar challenge? Join us in reimagining the leadership of the future with me, your host, Shahana Banerjee, CEO of Just Human Leadership Advisors. In this episode, we explore the missing link between what we say and what we do, what that says about us as leaders and, and the toll it takes on our culture with James White. He's the iconic former CEO of Jamba Juice and serves on the boards of the Honest Company, Kava Schnuck Supermarkets, Simply Good and Greenlight. He's also the author of the bestseller Culture Design. A, uh, deeply purpose driven leader, he's on a mission to help people thrive both individually and collectively. Welcome James. Such an incredible honor to have you on our podcast.

Speaker B: Really nice to be with you today.

Speaker A: Awesome. I've been really looking forward to this. So let's jump right in, tell us your story, James. The people, the influences and the experiences who have shaped you into who you are today.

Speaker B: I go back to, uh, my earliest days in St. Louis, Missouri as a young man. And front and center are going to be my mom and dad. There were coaches that were really important foundationally. If I take you back to my fourth grade class, and this is really a defining moment for me and has kind of shaped my leadership going forward. Um, I was in a chaotic, overcrowded, public fourth, uh, grade class. We never had a permanent teacher for that entire year. I was an introverted young man and ended up being tracked to the slow class in the fifth grade. So you can imagine what my mom and dad must have been thinking at the time. And my mom really intervened and showed me lots of compassion. But I did. I went through the whole fifth grade year in the SLO class. Uh, and it was probably one of the most important experiences of My entire life, I got to really see my mom's focus and leadership, the compassion and empathy she showed for my younger self, the work that she put in side by side with me to, you know, really move me through that year, uh, to a place where, you know, I was able to really excel in school kind of beyond that. So I go from the slow class in the fifth grade to by the seventh grade, I was offered a chance to go to a prep school on the East Coast. That was a really important moment in my, you know, kind of foundational younger life. I was the first member of my family to graduate from university. You know, kind of 40 years post graduating from the university, was inducted into the hall of Fame at the University of Missouri.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: The other one is a coach, uh, Leroy Washington. I, uh, played for, uh, Junior Football League team for six or seven years. Wasn't a fantastic athlete, but I learned a lot about compassion and leadership watching our coach. And I'm more reflective on it now, you know, 50 years later than I was at the time. But it was really such a special leadership, uh, moment.

Speaker A: As you look back, what's the lesson that you think you learned from your mom really, you know, investing in you in that way and from your coach?

Speaker B: I've learned a lot about how one single leader or one single individual can change the trajectory of people's lives. So, I mean, that's one of my biggest takeaways. And that's why I never underestimate the potential of any individual in my teams ever. And I'm always looking for what the superpower is or the strength. Uh, lots of leaders kind of manage their teams, kind of looking at, working on weaknesses, and I'm always looking at what's the superpower that this individual might possess that we could really leverage to make the team stronger, to make the contribution of this individual stronger. My first leadership opportunity was at the Coca Cola company. I was 24 years of age, and the folks that made up my sales team for all, a decade to 15 years older. Wow. You can imagine a young man relatively shortly out of university. I'm leading a team that had been with the company, that had other jobs, lots of experiences. And the lesson I learned early on came back to listening, caring, trying to learn about the individual. The lesson I took from that management experience is, uh, none of the folks on that team cared about how much I knew until they knew that I understand their story and really showed empathy and understanding of what they hope to get out of their work. At the organization, I was always able to leverage that uh, as kind of a cornerstone of how I uh, lead. Main lesson is when you're leading people, there's work that they will do because you're the boss and you're in the position. But the discretionary effort is built on trust and them knowing how much you care and value their unique contribution to the team. And that's been just really a foundational lesson for me.

Speaker A: I mean there's so many powerful ideas in what you've just shared. Right. Your mother, she was clearly a uh, spotter of talent. Right. So sometimes I think we label talent as not performing, not good enough. But the fact is that sometimes it's the circumstances and everybody deserves to be given a chance to prove themselves in a more nurturing environment.

Speaker B: The leader also sets the context, the velocity of change, the pace of change, the complexity of the change. It's really important for the leader to reground the team.

Speaker A: You've had such a storied career full of twists and turns and seemingly unusual choices. You've gone from CPG to retail to restaurant. So could you share a bit more about that journey and what drove some of the choices?

Speaker B: 30 year operating executive and I've worked across three consumer facing businesses. But so 20 years in the consumer goods space and then another decade between supermarkets and retail. So let me take you through a bit of the journey. Uh, so I've worked for the Coca Cola company. We talked a bit about that. I spent really most of my foundational years uh, at uh, Ralston Purina, uh, Nestle Purina. Today I worked across a couple categories, the pet care category and cereal to 15, 16 different roles over the course of my time, kind of progressively increasing responsibilities, uh, uh, to lead a big chunk of commercial sales there, work with the biggest retailers on the planet at that time, from Walmart to Kroger to Safeway stores. That took me uh, to my first general management assignment, um, at the Gillette Company. So at Gillette I had responsibility for our Canadian operation and then ran a big chunk of commercial marketing and sales in North America. Then I went to Safeway Stores. I was senior vice president of their private label portfolio. So about an $8 billion business, thousands of employees, 30 factories. My remit there was to create a consumer goods company inside a retailer working through the retailers brands. And during uh, that three year stint we built at that point was what was the largest organic uh, brand nationally. Uh, my teams worked on that literally from zero to uh, a billion dollars in retail sales which was a, you know, really a high point of that part of my experience, finished my career as CEO, uh, at Jamba. A, uh, public company took them through a turnaround and transformation. The market cap increased by 500% from the time I started, uh, up until

Speaker A: my departure as CEO of Jamba. You definitely engineered quite an epic transformation. Take us to the early days in 2008 when you joined. What were you working into?

Speaker B: I take you even further back to the interview process. Literally, I was the last person being interviewed for this job. I can remember it as if it was yesterday. It was a cold, cold November evening, you know, going to the interview at their offices, uh, in the Bay Area, uh, uh, after my day of work, there was a board member that came down. And what I learned later is they had already selected, they already had a, a candidate identified. So they just sent the board member down to interview this last guy, he's on the list, but we've decided on X candidate. And we get into the interview as he tells me the story. Now he said, what I saw in you as we conversation is you were what the organization needed from a people leadership perspective. So he goes back up and tells, uh, the chairman, hey, I think we've got something here. I know we've got a choice, but you should come down and talk to this candidate. Prior in 2006, uh, the company was running out of cash, the sales were lagging. You know, so it's a smoothie chain that it probably expanded too far too fast.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Challenges from a menu perspective, didn't have the right clarity around leadership and execution and expectation. So really the first thing that I did was garner feedback from all the key stakeholders, starting with, um, the support center staff. So one of the things that I did is in my first kind of town hall meeting, I had really three questions for the group and then one bonus question. Uh, what are the things you hope the new CEO will start doing? What are the things we should stop doing and what are the things that we should continue? And then the bonus question is what additional advice would, uh, you have for me, CEO? So we collected those, put them into themes, and we use that to really work our way into the organization. And I did similar processes which each member of the board, uh, I talked to investors, we talked to consumers. I importantly got out into our stores or cafes to talk to the general managers because they're on the front line so they really know what matters most to the customers. But took about 100 days to gather all that info and then laid out a plan, first to the board and then to the organization, pun intended. We Call it Blinn Plan one. You know, it's a smoothie shop with a blend plan. Uh, and it had a few critical pillars that included uh, strengthening the brand, really improving our innovation around the menu. So we're a uh, smoothie chain that was moving eastward, you know, from the west coast. We were going to face different kinds of climates and temperatures and we had to be able to attract consumers across the seasonality of the business in those geographies. Most importantly, uh, you know, how might we unlock the full potential of the, of the culture to really execute this plan was a critical aspect of the strategy moving forward. And a couple of the highlights include we had a spectacular launch uh, of a steel cut oatmeal to help us deal with the seasonality to bring in a few more customers during the morning day part. But that's something that stands out. And then we also needed to recapitalize the, the firm over the first couple quarters of that year. We're able to refinance the firm, focus ourselves on the, on the longer term. Uh, and the rest as they say, is, is history. I had a seven year uh, plus debt as CEO there. The results would have been significant increase in same store sales. We added about 200 locations. You know, over the tenure of my time at Jamba, we expanded into international uh, markets like the Philippines and South Korea. And we were innovative in creating some consumer products. We entered into more aggressively into new channels that were helpful to us like airports and colleges and universities.

Speaker A: Oh, amazing, amazing. So you took on the job of CEO, uh, of a smoothie chain during winter. Winter, uh, when the company was losing cash.

Speaker B: Losing cash and had lagging sales. So.

Speaker A: Right. Losing cash, lagging sales. What made you do it?

Speaker B: One, I wanted to be CEO. I felt like I, you know, worked my way to this point. I felt like this was a brand that deserved to live at. You know, I knew many, many people that it really played a special role in the lives. It was an iconic west coast brand and I thought if I could give myself six months I'd be able to figure it out given all my other experiences. So I had a lot of confidence in myself. I thought the brand had really tremendous potential and I had uh, you know, really a lot of confidence if given the time we'd be able to turn the ship around. And we were able to do that very successfully over that period of time.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. It's interesting because right now we all seem to be living in this age of, I don't know, exponential poly Crisis, I suppose, is the way to put it right. It's certainly hard to be CEO, but it's also really hard to be on the board of directors of any company at this point of time. So I'd love to know, because you've served now on over 20 boards, if I'm not mistaken. So I'd love to know maybe what are three non obvious sort of things that you look for to diagnose the health of the company, the future trajectory of the company.

Speaker B: I've been sitting uh, on board for uh, 20 plus years. I've sat on 20 boards, uh, over that period of time. And I've been uh, either chair or lead independent director seven of those boards over time and then sit on a handful of boards. Today I chair the honest company. I sit on the CAVA board, Simply Good Foods, a broad kind of board portfolio. And as I think about boards that I would consider joining, do I believe in the brands and the mission of the brands? So there has to be alignment there, my affinity with the CEOs and their potential to lead um, these brands and then um, my colleagues that sit on the board, do I believe I could one make a meaningful contribution? And then to learn from the people that I'm sitting in the boardroom, uh, with. And if all those boxes are click, those are the boards that I have the most passion for. As I think about, uh, the velocity of change, the complexity of change, some of the less obvious things that I believe CEOs and board members should be thinking about are really alignment around culture. Because given all the change, if culture isn't managed intentionally, you know, both the culture of the board and importantly culture and how the company, uh, operates, uh, the marketplace could shift and the workforce is disoriented. There's not good clarity. A place I like to spend a lot of time is really understanding how we build the culture towards the future state of the company, given all the turbulent change. And we've had a lot of it the last four or five years. The other, um, thing that I think about is how important a good board is to the CEO of the management team. Not so much today. Uh, and there's one really spectacular board chair and a good friend of mine, Ron Shaikh, who is our chairman at uh, cava. The question he asked every time we walk into meeting, what are the things we should be thinking about that'll prepare and support this management team two or three years into the future? So he's not focused on the day, the crisis of the day. He forces us to bring A mindset where we step back and say, what are the things we must be talking about? What are the investments that we might make? What are the decisions? How should we help the CEO management team kind of think about the hard issues to look around the corner? In many cases, the value add is not necessarily in the boardroom. It's in the mentoring that a CEO might ask me to do with a leadership member of her team.

Speaker A: One of the things you said you look for is culture. Right? Culture of the organization. So could you talk a little bit more about what specifically do you look for as a board member from the company?

Speaker B: I want to see that there is alignment between what we say. Mhm. And what we do.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Because culture isn't placards on the wall or what's on the website. Uh, what I always want to understand is how the folks that work inside the business experience it, or even how do I experience the company as a consumer? Are the values that we say we stand for? Do they show up through how our colleagues or employees experience the company? And in particular how our customers, uh, experience how we add value and the jobs that we try to do for those customers, uh, are just a couple things that I try to focus on.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's actually a great segue to talk more about culture. Culture, I think is probably one of the most used, but also one of the most misunderstood terms in business. Right. Because often I think people think of culture as the warm and fuzzy stuff, uh, the cafeterias, the pickleball tournaments, the slumber ets. Right. That kind of thing. When actually it is really about the nuts and bolts of how people work together to get things done. And you are a CEO who clearly gets it. And now you've written a book co authored with your daughter Krista, called Culture Design. So why was it important for you to write the book?

Speaker B: And we've done lots of work with CEOs and boards and executives and we felt like there was an opportunity to take my 30 years of experience as an operating executive and 20 plus years in the boardroom and distill that down to what I view is one of the most critical areas of running a great company. And that relates to culture. So we started with the premise that you have culture by design or default.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: The critical focus is about being intentional about culture. And culture really is manifested in how things actually work inside an organization. So we focus in the book on really three pillars, kind um, of knowing what matters. And that's really all about the context, the reality. We've got a Process where we will look at, ah, we describe it as an archaeological dig where you look at all the artifacts like what do we say we stand for? What do we say we do? How do consumers experience the organization? How are employees experiencing the company? That's the snapshot of today. The next really important pillar is uh, doing what matters. So how do what we say? How does that get operated? How does it manifest itself in the meetings we have or don't have? How employees are compensated, incentivized? How does communication happen between the most senior levels of the organization into the organization and ultimately how does it realize itself in how you serve, uh, whatever your consumers or customers or clients look like. And then, you know, for us in business, anything that matters, you measure it. So measuring what matters is kind of the last pillar. And that's the basis on how we structured the book. We interviewed a dozen leaders, various kinds of companies so that we could really bring real stories of real companies and real leaders to life, to give the audience different ways to think about culture in the context of their own organization. One of the things that we believe is that empathy is a really core part of any well built culture. We think it's an emerging core capability for the best leaders. If Krista was on this call, she would say it starts with listening with heart. M. Uh, and then that takes me back to my fifth grade self and my mom M and her involvement. And I always try to make sure that that idea is not too far. Yeah, how I think about the world. And you know, one example, the CEO of Bolthouse, uh, Fresh, Timothy Escamilla, uh, who I'd known for years and he's a third, fourth generation immigrant. His dad, grandfather, uncles work in these same fields and he's now CEO. Uh, he mentioned two things that we wrote about in the book. One is whenever he's doing a field visit, the first thing he does is he does a beeline to the bathrooms and if they're not clean enough for him to use, that tells him something about the culture in that operation. So that's where he starts. And obviously that's rooted in uh, the things that his family had or didn't have in the way of just good, thoughtful, human dignity related thing. And we thought that was really, really high impact. And the other really moving thought that he left us with. He said, james and Krista, you know, I'm CEO, I've got a busy job, but five minutes as I'm um, walking the fields or walking the halls of our office with our employees really, really could change the trajectory of their day. So I always take that time. I'll go to the cafeteria and have a meal or a beverage with folks. But I thought that was a really special way to think about it. And then the third thing he said, everybody deserves to know what a good day's work looks like. So he said, as I started this job, I wanted to make sure that we could define for every employee what a good day's work looks like, what does success look like in this organization. And we thought those were, you know, really three really valuable perspectives to be able to the readers.

Speaker A: So many lessons in there. One of the things that stands out, the empathy in action is very clear. A, uh, CEO sometimes has to make a decision that, do you help all your stakeholders or do you only focus on shareholder as the only stakeholder? And I think there are CEOs who make sure that they are able to balance and help all of the stakeholders thrive. So whether it's the community, whether it's their teams, whether it's their customers and their shareholders, versus just focusing on the shareholder and market cap. So it sounds like Timothy is definitely one of the ones who can understand and relate to each of the stakeholders and help each of them thrive in a different way.

Speaker B: And I'd argue that the best, the best CEOs and management teams are focused on all the stakeholders.

Speaker A: I love the simplicity and clarity of the framework. Know what matters, do what matters, measure what matters. Amazing. Is there a company that comes to mind that you think doesn't have that alignment?

Speaker B: Some worst practices, uh, one of the companies, Tyson Foods, a couple of examples, they had managers that they had to fire during COVID that were betting on who would be the next person in the factory to get Covid. What kind of culture breeds that? But you also had a culture where they had to let the family member CFO go because there were just so many strange incidents your audience can review. But that would be an example, um, where there's just a disconnect. And it starts with the top of the organization.

Speaker A: Right. This podcast is brought to you by Just Human Leadership Advisors. We specialize in executive coaching and a broad range of human capital solutions. To learn more, Visit us at JustHuman IO. And now back to the podcast. As you think of, uh, all of your experience, but all of the CEOs that you have met and the cultures that you've encountered, what do you think are, uh, the key hallmarks of a dysfunctional or a toxic culture?

Speaker B: We talk about this, say, do gap. So everybody has the placards you could put these placards side by side by side and they'd all look the same. We interviewed some executives and uh, they talk about wanting to make sure there's a short distance between what we say and what we do.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Dysfunctional companies say one thing and the one the folks experience it or the way they role model it is there's a wide distance. So that's one place organizations where there is not, you know, kind of clarity of direction and clarity of feedback kind of both ways. Places where you've got the imperial CEO who distances him or herself from the, the organization and there's not listening and empathy and are places that are frightening for me where there is no consistent application of standards or people opposite, uh, of Timothy don't know what a good day's work looks like for my job in the company. So those are all some examples.

Speaker A: Yeah, all great examples. So one of the things you talked about as CEO, uh, of Jamba was the fact that you focused on culture. In the light of what we've just spoken about, could you share more about how the Jamba culture evolved?

Speaker B: Jamba had a really high energy, special kind of magical culture. Uh, and really what we were trying to do is eliminate the complexity for the team that needed to serve the customers. We wanted to be more focused on executional excellence. In addition to having a fun, very energetic culture, we wanted to put them at the center of how the organization got its work done. So we were thinking about technology, product launches from the perspective of the folks being able to execute and deliver really excellent service and great products to our end consumers. We intentionally talked about the headquarters as the support for center because that's really, really the role that we uh, play was in support of our uh, stores just being present and having feedback systems that allow the leadership to demonstrate agility in terms of making the adjustments that could make us a higher performing company.

Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds a little like you turned the organizational chart on its head, right? Typically it's a pyramid where the CEO is at the top and there is a cascade of, you know, everything that happens from the top. But you are putting your front line essentially ahead. And the uh, headquarters is in service of the front line which is really turning the org chart on its head

Speaker B: and supporting, yes, really more servant, servant leadership. And I actually believe that's the leadership being in service of the organization. When I was an operating executive and trying to unlock the full potential of each individual leader then ultimately the organization and positioning everyone to be able to do their best work.

Speaker A: That's Amazing. And looking back at your journey, I think there's a clear theme of helping people thrive as a collective individually, but also as a collective. Right. And so, ah, tell me, why is that so important to you personally?

Speaker B: It goes back to, you know, my early days, uh, being underestimated as a student. And that idea is really never far away from the way I think about the world. So as I look at people and teams and organizations, I'm, um, always a glass half full. And I'm always looking for ways, especially if I'm responsible, uh, to kind of unlocking the potential of, uh, people. Because I don't know who the next CEO is that's being overlooked out there, uh, in the world. I could get to this seat. So that's been really my greatest work that I've been able to do is to build other leaders and see people thrive. And I'll give it, I'll give an example, uh, of one of my favorite leaders. And this was during my time at Ralston Purina. I had a leadership opening for a district manager. And I was served several candidates. And there was one candidate that I went out to interview. He didn't have a college, uh, degree, but was an exceptional performer. Long story short, he ended up being my selection for this role. He was head and shoulders, the best person, uh, for this job, in my opinion, but had been passed over for years. So he was in a job for six or seven years. And it was likely his credentials that kept him out of these opportunities because it certainly wasn't his performance in running, uh, the business. I put this gentleman in the job and his career just thrived. He went on to be, uh, head of sales at M Mars Pet Food over time. And I just love that. But this is a guy who was languishing because people looked at his credentials and kind of underestimated him. He went on to get his college degree, so he got the credentials done, but we were discounting him because he didn't have, uh, certain credentials at the time. And, uh, he's a, He's a dear friend, special, special leader. His story is the kind of stories that, you know, really have me do the kind of work that I do.

Speaker A: Yeah, you saw potential in him when no one else did the work that he did. Certainly showed that you were right. Right in actually taking a chance on him. And you know what's fascinating is that even if you look at the job market today, right, It's a, uh, really crazy job market out there. And often I think people hesitate to take a chance and Often, whether, uh, it's college degrees, whether it is which university you studied at, what you studied, which brand you worked for, those are often proxies for performance, but the fact is that they are not really a proxy for performance at all because they have no correlation whatsoever.

Speaker B: You've got to get to the human being.

Speaker A: That's right. That's right. And so the much better proxy is actually real performance and what the person has actually accomplished or done and the way that they have accomplished it. And so, I mean, that's a great story, uh, and it certainly gives a glimpse of how you live your purpose. So thank you so much for sharing that. When you think about your leadership journey, what's the leadership lesson you've learned the hard way?

Speaker B: I don't know about the hard way, but one of the important lessons was how important being a lifelong learner was. I mean, early in your career you can actually outwork other people. But as you start to rise in the organization, everybody's willing to put in that at that level. They're willing to put in the extra time. Where I was able to separate myself over a career was by my investment in my own learning and building capabilities that would set me up for the future. Uh, and even after finishing my stint as CEO at Jamba, I took myself back to university and went through a program at Stanford there, Distinguished Careers Institute for a year where I'm in, you know, when I tell people, they're like, so you went, you were a professor? No, I was a student. Uh, Stanford has this program, the Distinguished Careers Institute. So I'm in classes with undergrads and, and grad students. And it was a, uh, really special experience. And what I was setting myself up for is I wanted to be more competitive for technology or Silicon Valley based board opportunities. M. That was kind of my mission and headset kind of going in. And I also knew I wanted to do some writing. Uh, so those were kind of the two ambitions over that year.

Speaker A: You've often been among the first few, the only in probably way too many spaces that, you know, perhaps weren't quite ready for you at the time. What was that experience like? And is there perhaps a situation or a story that comes to mind and how did you navigate it?

Speaker B: It can be hard, uh, believing that you've got to prove why you're in the room. But I've used it as kind of fuel to be able to really bring my best work. And again, I use my 5th grade experience as a bit of a touchstone. So in the most challenging moments I always take myself back to being a student to become, you know, whether it's changing industries in the way I've changed industries from consumer products to retail to restaurants, I just, I take myself back to school. Uh, you know, I humble myself to kind of learn the things that I don't know. Once you work your way into the room, you've actually got to use your voice and power to build more inclusive spaces. And really all the writing and work that I do today is to make sure we build better companies that are more inclusive and more for all than not.

Speaker A: Is there an experience that stands out when it was hard to work your way into the room?

Speaker B: I can remember a situation where I, uh, in my mind I was passed over for a job that I was clearly one of the most qualified for the job. And it was during my time at Ralson Purina we were going through significant change. We're moving to cross functional, a more cross functional matrix customer facing organization. We were moving to a different, uh, less sales oriented, more general manager oriented, uh, approach. And we blended some functions and blended some roles and appointed six leaders. So in my mind, given my track record and all the things that I do in my head, there could have been six people in this industry that were better than me for these jobs. But there's no way there could have been six people in this company that were better than me if you're picking six people. But lo and behold, uh, six people got picked for those jobs and James White wasn't one of them. But again, a little bit like the fifth grade, it ended up being the best experience possible for me. And here's the story, you know, so I'm meeting with the president of the division at the time and he said, well, you didn't get one of the managing director roles. And then there was another more planning kind of function that would have been central. So nope, we're appointing somebody else there. We're going to put you in this national accounts group running wholesale clubs. Uh, like what? So this club business ended up being Costco and it set in a group that was a national accounts group that would become Walmart and Target. So you know how the story plays out. So you know, I thought I was kind of banished, uh, and thought about for a moment, hey, this is my time to leave. Uh, you know, but the other lesson for me is when I face those kind of challenges, I'm going to leave on my own terms. So you know, I had a disappointing weekend. But when I showed back up Monday, I was ready to go and the, and the lesson for me is sometimes you've got to make the best of where you sit. And I ended up being in this national accounts group and little did I know at the time, you know, because supermarkets would have been 60 or 70% of the business at that time.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, and we know as the world has changed. So I'm, I'm actually sitting at the epicenter of all the growth right then. I know more about that. So three years later, most of the people that had gotten those bigger jobs than we all reported to me. So it worked out just beautifully. And the lesson is don't quit too soon, don't give up too soon and really just take stock and see what you can learn with whatever it is you're uh, given. But it was really a defining career moment for me. That's a powerful story that could have went either way.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a powerful story and it's so true that you can't judge a, uh, role by its starting point.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Because you have no idea how it's going to evolve, how things are going to change. As you think about your impact, right, on your team, on your readers, on consumers, on the industry, what are you most proud of?

Speaker B: I'm really proud of the impact that I've had on leaders. Whether it's the coaching work that I do or the leaders that I've had, um, the chance to, uh, have an impact on across the various companies or boards that I've set on. I'm really proud of that. My focus always place is try to leave the organizations that I've worked at a little bit better as I exit.

Speaker A: Is there a story of coaching that stands out? Obviously, Confidentially, I'll, uh, give you an example of.

Speaker B: And this is a CEO and it was a, uh, board that was a little bit just misaligned with the CEO and they just felt like they couldn't get in sync on communications. And I encourage, you know, after talking to the board members and the CEO, I just encourage the CEO to write a, uh, monthly letter that gave their priorities in view because a lot happens with, especially as fast as things are changing today, just to lay out the priorities so that the board members could track along so that I'm not coming back up to speed every quarter as I walk into the board meetings. And that's been magical to take the noise out of the system so that as they walk into these meetings they can really get to the work because they're tracking along with the CEO just based on this one, two page letter. And not hard to do. Uh, but most people don't do it.

Speaker A: Right. That's a great example. As you look back, how many people do you think have been impacted by your work?

Speaker B: Thousands. Uh, as Kristen and I wrote these, uh, books, we hope to be able to touch a million people through the companies in some way. We'll, we'll see how that plays out over time. We probably got to put a few more books in the world to do that, but, uh, we just wanted to try to have an impact. I want to try to put into the world all the things that I've learned and experienced. And one of the things we found with the book writing is with engagements like this, we actually learn more as we're going back and forth with the world and folks asking really brilliant questions like the ones that you've asked to really bring more stories to life. Uh, so it'll give the second or third versions of the books.

Speaker A: Well, I can talk to you all day. I have so many more questions. But what we try to do is put a few of them together in a rapid fire section.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Are you ready?

Speaker B: I'm ready.

Speaker A: Okay. What's the first job you've ever had?

Speaker B: My first job was working at as a bus boy at a Saint, uh, Louis based company that I don't think is in existence today called Jacks or Betters. A hamburger. Join in. You know, kind of the funny story for me is there was this red silk shirt that I had to buy as a part of the uniform. And I probably only, uh, worked there long enough to recoup the 20 or 30 bucks for the this red silk shirt. But Jack's a better as a busboy.

Speaker A: Well, if there are any buzzboys listening to our podcast today, I hope they realize that there are opportunities and, you know, they can grow too.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Well, you wake up one day and realize you're a superhero. What is your superpower and what would you do with it?

Speaker B: You know, making the world a better place, helping people reach and find their own full potential.

Speaker A: Oh, I love that. Uh, what is one thing you've learned about yourself that surprised you?

Speaker B: I just think the resilience over time to be able to pivot and change and grow and learn. And I've been really excited about that. You know, my mom was important from that perspective, and my daughter, Kristen, the writing and the work that we're doing there, I mean, has given me energy and passion to do this kind of work that we're doing now.

Speaker A: Yeah, Love that. What is a failure?

Speaker B: You're proud of there was a board that I sat on that had a crisis in their CEO role. And I was in that role for just a brief period of time. But there was just a misalignment of values. And what I try to do is really only align myself with people that, you know, I share similar values with. So I got out of there as quick as I could.

Speaker A: If you could send a message to young James, right, in fourth grade, what would you say?

Speaker B: I said, it's going to be okay. This too shall pass. Uh, this class with these bad kids, they'll be in the rearview mirror very soon.

Speaker A: What is one tool or practice or habit that's helped you grow as a leader?

Speaker B: The main thing is having a plan, a written plan. I used to do longer term planning and really personal story. I'm a cancer survivor and you know, face your own mortality. Prostate cancer and four years cancer free. But as I was going through the battle through cancer, the only thing I was trying to do is win each day. So m. So my motto is to win each day and make sure that that due to us for the day really lines up with the long term. So I want to spend time with people, projects that really align with my core values. So I literally have a list of things and kind of check them off. And the idea is if you can stack up great days, you get the great weeks, you get the great months, and you've got. Had a fantastic year. One fun family ritual. I guess it is now. We've started a couple years ago, uh, after we lost my mom. We do a family vision board.

Speaker A: Oh.

Speaker B: Where each member of the family does a vision board and we share, you know, whether it's vacation or ambition for the year. And that's been really special. And then we've now my wife and I have done this with some friends where we come and just say, hey, here's what we're thinking about for the next year. And it's been a really inspiring kind of personal ritual.

Speaker A: I love that. That's amazing. What's one thing that's on your vision

Speaker B: board for this current year? Uh, travel to Brazil, which we've done. We're music people, so we do, uh, bunch of music and jazz festivals. My wife sits on the Monterey Jazz, uh, board of directors. So that was on the board. Learning everything about AI was on the board for me. And then I'm jealous of friends that have, uh, grandbabies. So we don't have any marriages yet. Uh, we're working on having all the right partners. So that's that's probably not this year thing, but grandbabies are on my vision board.

Speaker A: Well, then certainly the practice of sharing it with your family members is a good one. That's a great segue to talk about. What do you hope leadership will look like in the age of AI?

Speaker B: We need to make sure that we have humans kind of front and center. One of the things in the age of AI that I see is I don't see as much conversation as I'd like to see on, um, how the humans fit in, uh, to this equation. Who needs to be reskilled? What are the new jobs? What's the oversight even? I mean, how do you keep humans kind of both in the loop and over the loop to, uh, really make sure that AI is applied with great humanity and thoughtfulness moving forward?

Speaker A: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think we're losing the plot a little bit where what is the point of AI if it doesn't serve humans right? What's one piece of career advice that's helped you in your career? And what's one piece of career advice you'd like to share with our listeners today?

Speaker B: The answer to really both of those questions is being curious, being an active learner, and really being focused on always building skills. And I think one of the superpowers that we all can find ways to nurture and develop his empathy, you know, much greater empathy, uh, for our colleagues, our communities, the organizations that we work in. And I think it bodes well to being a great teammate or leader.

Speaker A: We ask all our guests to throw down a mindful Leadership Challenge for the month. What would you like to throw down as a challenge for our listeners?

Speaker B: This is a Krista challenge that she often throws down. What's the one thing that you can do personally as a leader in the organization where you stand to strengthen the culture that you work in? And any of the folks that want to send me a note on their challenges can find me on, uh, LinkedIn and I'd love to hear the ideas.

Speaker A: Awesome. Uh, awesome. Thank you so much, James. This has been such an amazing conversation, so much wisdom, so many great stories, phenomenal lessons, truly, truly appreciate it. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with our listeners.

Speaker B: Thank you. This has been awesome and a really, really enjoyable time.

Speaker A: Thank you for joining us. We'd love to hear from you. Please rate, review and subscribe to the Mindful Leadership Podcast brought to you by Just Human. We are a growth accelerator for our clients, helping your people and businesses thrive through human, human centered, ecosystem based people solutions. To learn more Visit us at JustHuman IO and schedule a 30 minute free call with us.