Courageous Leadership with Kevin Cashman

Speaker A: So this is a time to not only react, but to take a pause and connect with purpose and our principles.

Speaker B: I'm Paul ladacena, Chairman Emeritus of Kearney and founder of its Global Business Policy Council, and this is Reimagining the Future. Future Envisioning what's next. For the past several years, this podcast has sought to make sense of our current period of turbulence, trying to decode disruption and chart the formidable challenges of our age. But history reminds us of something essential. Chaos doesn't last forever. In fact, it often clears the ground for renewal again and again. We know from history and personal experiences that periods of breakdown are often followed by breakthroughs. That's the spirit of this new series. As we reimagine the future. Rather than look at how we got here, we're focused on what comes next at, uh, the green shoots that might be pushing up through the cracks today. I'm pleased to welcome a longtime friend, colleague, and mentor, Kevin Cashman, to help us consider the kinds of leadership models we need for the era ahead. Kevin has long and deep experience helping leaders navigate moments of transformation. He's the Vice Chairman of CEO and Enterprise Leadership at Korn Ferry, the world's leading executive search and leadership development firm. Kevin is a renowned CEO coach, and over his career, he's advised thousands of CEOs, senior executives, and senior teams from across the globe. Kevin's coaching was very important to me during my tenure as Carney CEO. He has pioneered an approach to leadership based on growing the whole person to grow the whole leader. He's the author of a number of books, including bestsellers the Pause, Step Back to Lead Forward, Awakening the Leader within, and Leadership from M the Inside Out. This is a book that's now used in curricula at more than 150 universities around the world. So it's a great pleasure for me to welcome. Kathy. Kevin. Well, listen, Kevin, uh, welcome. It's great to have you with us again for the launch of this new podcast series. So let's start by looking back at the context of the past few years. Now, you've counseled leaders through the chaos of the 2020s, and we all that m. Those memories are fresh, and that turbulence hasn't let up. How are the leaders that you work with today feeling at this moment, early in 2026?

Speaker A: Well, it's an amazing time, but I have to say that the past year, maybe two, have probably been the most unusual times for us to observe leadership. And I've never seen leaders so confused and stressed, and they can't Talk to anybody about it. In fact, they may have to show a different side to different constituencies, whether it's, uh, the White House or some other location or a client and so on. I have never seen leaders challenged to lead in their character and through their values. It's tough and it's wearing on people. And we see it a little more in the U.S. but globally, the tenure of leaders, and particularly CEOs, has gone down significantly during this time. And tragically, I've seen a couple leaders not make it, not survive the stress. One of the, um, classical almost impossible conflicts of leadership is you have to succeed now as you're creating the next. With everything moving so fast and chaotically. I mean, look at just the last week news cycle. If you're reacting to all of that, it's really hard to keep your eye on the perform, much less have the energy and confidence to imagine and invest in what's next. So it's very, very tough. Now the question to me is, if it's about performing in the now and simultaneously creating the next in rapid change, well, what are the constants? Your character might be a constant. Your values, your principles, your mindsets and orientation. So this is a time to not only react, but to take a pause and connect with purpose and our principles.

Speaker B: Really well said, Kevin. But it seems to be increasingly difficult to authentically, uh, communicate meaningful purpose in a cynical world where leaders are worried about sounding performative. So you were talking and writing about purpose long before it became universally understood as, uh, central to effective and meaningful personal and professional development and engagement. So how have you seen the conversation over your long history of coaching leaders about purpose shift, Kevin?

Speaker A: Well, the first thing I'd like to say about purpose is that it seems to be part of the human experience because you can go back to earliest history. I, uh, could go back. I won't bore people about 5000 years ago text that talked about purpose. And without it, we just can't exist, right? So we're relational and purpose driven beings. Now. Sometimes purpose we think of with a small P, meaning I feel purpose today because I'm getting some stuff done or the P gets a little bigger. I, um, feel purposeful today because my gifts are changing lives. My gifts are experience or what I have can impact human lives. And so it's first important to really know what it is. Purpose is not purposeful until it enriches the lives of other people. That's the test of it. And the more enriching life affirming it can be, the more purposeful it Is what we're, uh, going for as leaders. We're going for enriching lives, multiplying opportunity, multiplying energy and possibilities. So purpose is critical to take our gifts, to make a big difference in the lives of people.

Speaker B: And, uh, a generation ago, and perhaps again today, leadership seems to be more about authority and control than it is about gifts and growing and giving. So, you know, what's fundamentally different about leadership today? What are the new skills and strengths that leaders need now to be able to lead effectively and, uh, successfully?

Speaker A: We think there are five mindsets that leaders need today more than ever. One we touched on, and that's purpose. What is the big context that can elevate us out of destructive or reactive tendencies to serve something bigger? The mindset of purpose. Am I in purpose now or out of purpose? Right. The second thing that I'm afraid is really missing besides purpose, is courage. We have experienced very powerful, competent people with lots of integrity, backing away from principles or being pressured into things that they really don't believe in or ascribe to courage. As we've discussed before, Paul, you know, it's not the, um, absence of fear, it's the presence of fear. And we still elevate to purpose and principles to do things right now, these two mindsets. What has become clear to us and, and we've done a lot of research on this, uh, is courage and purpose are, uh, like dance partners. They're independent, but when they dance together, they're more powerful. For instance, you could have somebody very courageous but lacks purpose, lacks service, lacks, um, the focus on people's lives. So let's say they're high on courage but low on purpose. Those people can do a lot of damage in the world. And maybe they get served, but others do not. And then there are leaders that could be very high in purpose, or people very high in purpose, but lack courage. And then what? Nothing happens. We feel so purposeful inside, and we probably complain about things a lot, but, um, we don't have the courage or the vehicle or maybe the credibility or whatever to engage that purpose in a courageous way. So those are two things that are more important now, and I would say more absent now, which is shocking to us because we know the research on, um, how courage and purpose impact performance. So purpose, courage. The third thing is integrative, um, thinking. And this is something, Paul, you are a master at. And integrated thinking is a lot more than critical thinking. Critical thinking discerns all the different dots in a matrix or circle. Oh, there's that one. There's this one. This one's different than that one. It's an intellectual thinking, so we discern difference. And integrated thinkers try to find the connection, at least have a drive, what is connecting all of these things. And then occasionally they get the gestalt, probably with others and with the big group, right? But then they're not satisfied because they want to find the next dot that changes everything, that changes the whole gestalt. Right? So there are things happening with us that we talk about all the time that we're anxious about, that we know is going to be another.like AI, but our neurotic brain kicks in and goes, it's going to kill us now. Maybe it will, who knows? We don't know. But we have to be careful. When you explore a dot, some new possibility, don't make it negative before you explore it, because you'll never get to the gestalt. In fact, things will come apart. So integrated thinking is connecting the dots, but constant curiosity about the new dot that changes the game. And we have one right now, um, the other is inclusion, which fits the ultimate human need to work together, build relationships, learn from each other, create together. And inclusion and integrated thinking are also unbelievable dance partners because in the inclusion process, new dots, new needs, new capabilities, new innovation will come up that need to be integrated because all innovation. And Robert Johnson wrote a great book, uh, called how to get to Now. All innovation is human collaboration. Now that'll be a little different with AI because there's another helper and all that. But so far, even the great inventors, when you really study the history, they built it, uh, on top of a huge amount of collaboration. And maybe they had the great idea at the end, but it was all collaboration. And then the last thing, which I think is the foundation is awareness of self and others. Without that, you can't do the others. So as much as AI is making us feel things are going to get inhuman, we have to go deeper. We have to be more self aware, m more human, more authentic. And these mindsets, these five mindsets, if you work on those, they'll open up all sorts of capabilities because somebody might be really good strategically, but they're not very inclusive.

Speaker B: Well, Kevin, that's great. And my own experience is that especially today, when there seem to be more exogenous risks that every leader needs to find their way to identify and mitigate, manage, avoid and so forth, peripheral vision is essential. And when you talk about integrated thinking, which has inclusiveness and awareness of self and others, enhances integrated thinking, which gives you the peripheral vision to be able to see and seize opportunities as well as see and avoid real risks. So without those last three mindsets, purpose and courage don't get you very far.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I think it's very interesting when you look at, I don't know how you feel, but I think a lot of people feel. I definitely feel more than ever that this future is coming at us. I always had the mindset we're going towards the future. Okay, they're probably both an illusion, but anyway, I thought we were going towards the future. Now it feels like the future is hunting us, uh, down. And this outside in pressure is big. And you can look at it with mental health and everything else. Right. It's having an impact. And the digital living, maybe we do and how we amp that up. So this outside in pressure, I think people and leaders are feeling more than ever. But we're not necessarily dealing with it from the inside out, going deeper to be stronger as we move towards this future. A lot of times with our clients, I'm looking for athletes, I'm looking for who like we're doing a succession which we do a lot of. There will be people in the line of succession who are really prepared for the job. They tick all the boxes. But then there'll be one or two that are really agile and athletic and you don't know what future is coming, but you'd prefer to have them deal with that coming future together. So I think, um, the world belongs to the most agile and um, it's always been true. I think it's more true with those outside in forces that are so powerful.

Speaker B: Well, that's a good segue to another question I wanted to ask you. Kevin. You wrote, I mean the book that's in use in hundreds of universities around the world. Your book Leadership from the Inside Out. If you were writing it today, what might be the most urgent new chapter that you would be writing and why?

Speaker A: Well, I'll tell you what I'm thinking about. So this is um, I think the new frontier, whether you look at it from a leadership perspective, technology perspective or quantum physics perspective is uh, consciousness and not self awareness only and not purpose only. This is going to really be out there. What we think of self and self consciousness and self awareness like purpose needs to be expanded because then we care about everything, not just our self interest. And quantum physics is increasingly postulating that this is all in a uh, connected, unified field that we're operating within the leaders. I know, and you may call it different things, they meditate they reflect, they get connected to something deeper and beyond them. But those are the leaders that can see more broadly, not feel threatened, uh, not see themselves as the only thing. And see that from a consciousness standpoint, we are all connected and valuable and precious and we need to do our best to serve whatever that is bigger than us all and within us all.

Speaker B: That's really, really deep thought, Kevin, and I hope that that book is uh, gestating in your mind. Well, I just wanted to double down a little bit on this question of agility, uh, that you, I, uh, think quite correctly, say is critical to successful leadership. But you know, leadership once optimized for stability, performance, and in an era of continuous convulsive change, performance is impossible unless you're continuously transforming. So what skills matter most for being able to lead in a way in which you perform in the here and now, but you also are able to transform for what's necessary to continue to be competitive and successful in the future.

Speaker A: We need to stay curious and ask questions and go deeper on the really important things, not on the trivial things, on the really important strategic, uh, say strategic principles of our organization or our life. If we've just acquired dogma, we're at big risk because life's going to beat, um, us down. So when we think we know, have the humility to go, well, I know this, but I'm m going to be curious about more and how these things connect and so on. And the people and leaders that do that are energized to create the future instead of holding on to a rigid past. That's what's coming. We're afraid that, uh, AI is going to kill us, but it's really going to challenge our change agility, in fact, for leaders. I'm not qualified to do this book, but I would love to read a book about the hybrid leader that's coming. Meaning when, uh, leaders are more developed like we're talking about, and are maybe not totally integrated but fully integrated with the benefits of AI. Oh my God, what is that world like? Just analyzing it from the positive. You could go the negative too, but analyzing it from the positive. I mean, leaders would be a lot smarter. Let's say that like thought AI is there in real time with us, so it doesn't interrupt the flow. It helps the flow and helps the depth and clarity. What is that like? And what is AI like when, um, it could be a real coach now, there's all sorts of apps and stuff like that, but a real Coach to say, Mr. Ms. CEO, you're off your purpose now you're off your principles. You could be more courageous here. You could open up and change a life here. My goodness, I would love that. So I think there's a quite amazing hybrid, um, possibility of technology and leadership, um, thinking through just a positive lens about it. Like in healthcare, you can see all sorts of positive outcomes too.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Um, one of our previous podcast guests, someone you know, Gianrico ah Ferruggio, the CEO of the Mayo Clinic, uh, said to us on this podcast that medicine needs to run to embrace AI. Not just to embrace it, but to run to embrace it. So, yeah, we do see those obviously positive aspects of how AI can improve life. CEOs these days seem to be constantly tiptoeing through politically charged minefields. So how do you lead? With purpose and principle in a non divisive way.

Speaker A: This is what makes leadership difficult because when we're leaders, we have multiple constituents and anything that we do is going to be great for one set of constituents and not so great for another group. So that's one of the reasons we need character and courage. And purpose is sometimes the most important things to do are the least popular. And, um, even the best leaders will back away from that out of self preservation. So what I try to get leaders to think about is in the end, what's really important in the end? Well, there's a lot of research to say relationships are, uh, what are really important and how we've impacted the lives of people and they us. Lots of research on end of life and that's what people are thinking about. They're not thinking about in the third quarter of 2024, man, if I could have gotten 1% more EBITDA, right? Oh my God.

Speaker B: As Barbara Bush once said, no one on their deathbed said, I wish I'd spent another day at the office.

Speaker A: I wish I had worked harder. It doesn't come up. So, um, I think we have to think about these big, broad, deep questions more. Um, and sometimes the really great leaders need to sacrifice themselves for a principle. I'm not encouraging it. Ah, it's maybe mostly better to fight on another day in a different way. So I'm not saying that, but there are moments that, um, make or break our leadership when they're there. It's worth it.

Speaker B: Yeah, we see examples of that every day, don't we? Of people who say we do. We just. I can't compromise my principles, uh, and I cannot be untrue to my purpose. I am going to authentically. And I think one of the ways through this political minefield is not to talk politics but to talk principle. And if people really understand your personal purpose and what are the principles which guide who you are and how you behave, uh, and how you lead, you're more likely to have the trust that's necessary to allow you to lead effectively, to be able to engage people in a way that they'll want to follow, uh, and they'll want to support the leadership mandate.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's so true, isn't it, that, um, people that are fighting about something likely have some things underlying that are the same.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, Kevin, you deal with leaders of all generations, and obviously increasingly these days you're seeing younger leaders step into positions of leadership. What are you learning from this next generation of leaders? What is sort of common to this next generation of leaders that might be somewhat different from previous generations of leaders that you've seen?

Speaker A: I've been thinking a lot about this. Someone came up to me and said, what's your advice to a 23 year old right now? It's a great question. It's not exactly your question, but it's related. What I would say is don't be too concerned about being a professional. I see people dressing and ties and all this kind of stuff. I'm going, that's your expectation of what you think it is. That's outdated. So don't be that. Go for your authenticity and really, really bring that forward because we need it. This is not a time to be cautious. I mean, I'm not talking about being foolhardy, but it's time to go for it. I'm so proud of our son who's like, just won the Twin Cities Film Festival Short Film International Film Festival. And I was there and I was just knocked out. But he's, he's a story of this. Get clear on your purpose, get competent at it. Be courageous about it. Yeah, you're not going to know if it's going to work or not, but you don't in anything, truth be told. So better to really go for it.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's really important insight, uh, Kevin. And you know, my experience has been both in working with individuals as well as institutions that those that are complacent because they're just trying to manage stability rather than transform, are more likely to be overtaken by events and find themselves, um, in decline because they haven't really taken the step to break through. So, you know, and the whole purpose of this series is to focus on what are the green shoots and breakthroughs that might be before us. And even if, you know, it's hard for us to see them. So what are you seeing in your work? What might some of those early indications of favorable change for the future be?

Speaker A: What I've observed is that, um, most breakthroughs happen with a pause through. We step back from ourselves, we get an assessment, we see ourselves differently, we get 360 feedback. We reflect on our lives and our purpose, and things start to break through. The green shoots are watered by pause. It's counterintuitive, but whether it's spiritual breakthrough or leadership development or strategic breakthrough, there's always some kind of individual or group pause through before the breakthrough. The other thing I've seen in others and in myself is a lot of time breakthroughs come from a pain through. We stumble in our career and recover. We lose some reputation and recover. We lose a relationship or a marriage, and then we recover. There's big benefits of the privileges we have in our lives, but there's big benefits from the pain and trauma, too. Not in the moment, maybe not even for years. But, um, the value of trauma is that it makes us passionate about the opposite. That, um, we not only want for ourselves, but we want for others. It's an experience. We experience the pain and the trauma and say, never again for me. And the purpose thought is never for others. So, um, it's really good to chart your life through what are the highs, what are the lows? And we tend to want to think about the positive breakthroughs, but the most transformative are the negative, when we lost and we had to recover something. And then we get real passion and conviction. So that's the part of breakthrough, the pause through and the pain through that I think helps us relate to more people and truly be authentic about our whole story and therefore compassionate about other people's stories.

Speaker B: That's, um, a really optimistic note, I think, on which to conclude our discussion. Kevin? Uh, this notion that the catharsis of the pain, uh, of the journey, of the breakdown or the near breakdown, that can lead to breakthrough M. That's. I. I think that's where we are as a global community these days. So many of the old institutions, the old ways of doing things, um, have broken down, perhaps because they weren't f. Fully effective. And we are going through this catharsis of the breakdown. And hopefully what lies ahead are the opportunities for breakthroughs. And that's what this podcast is attempting to try and identify. What are the signs of breakthroughs that we need to capitalize on. So, as you think, like an optimist, what do you hope lies ahead? And what do you think it will take to get us there?

Speaker A: It's a really fantastic question and by and large, I'm an optimist. You're right. I think we are going to go through some bumpy times as we go through this breakthrough. But we all need to know that to propel forward, we need to have a vision of what we really want to create that pulls us into the future and a clarity about what we really don't want to repeat. And it's those two tensions that move us into the future, whether we're a leader, a company, a team or whatever. To feel the tension of what we really want in terms of leadership in life and what we don't want to repeat. Those two things I would say will propel us into the future individually and collectively.

Speaker B: What a brilliant way to conclude, uh, this discussion. I am grateful to you, as I know our audience will be, for all of the insight that you've provided us. I'm personally grateful for all of the insight you've given me over the years that you have, uh, mentored me and so many others. Thank you. And uh, I hope and trust that um, your vision of the future, of learning from the past so that we don't repeat the mistakes of the past and having a compelling vision for the future is something that will unite all of us to move us forward to that breakthrough. Thanks very much, Kevin for this brilliant, uh, discussion.

Speaker A: Thank you Paul. Um, it's such a pleasure to be with you and to get your wisdom. I think you've mentored me even more than I've mentored you. Thank you.

Speaker B: Take good care, Kevin.

Speaker C: This podcast podcast is produced by the Global Business Policy Council, a specialised think tank within the global management consulting firm Carney. For more than 30 years, the council has been a strategic service for the world's top executives, policy figures and business minded thought leaders. The Council is dedicated to helping CEOs and government leaders anticipate and plan for the future. Learn more about the Global Business Policy council council at carney.com forward/gbpc.