Tales of Leadership · 2026-06-14 · 1h 32m
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
32 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Jason Sharp brings hard-won perspective on leadership forged through adversity. Growing up with a father in prison and a mother addicted to crack cocaine, Sharp learned early that survival required self-reliance, trust in shared suffering, and an indomitable mindset resistant to victimhood. Now a principal program manager at Leonardo DRS supporting the Columbia-class submarine program, Army National Guard company commander, and author, Sharp articulates a leadership philosophy centered on praising effort over outcomes and enabling people to fail without becoming failures. He contrasts this with the outcomes-obsessed culture dominating modern organizations, advocating instead for focus on executive function skills and the interpersonal processes that drive sustainable results. Sharp's book and his work with Sharp Leadership consulting emphasize how transforming pain into purpose equips leaders to lift others through their own hardships.
Sharp credits shared suffering with his siblings as the foundation - survival mode forced mutual accountability and purpose. He developed an indomitable mindset by refusing victimhood and using adversity as fuel to break cycles, eventually enlisting in the military, becoming an officer, and building a career in national security.
Leaders must allow people to fail without becoming failures by praising effort rather than outcomes. When leaders focus on effort and executive function skills, outcomes follow naturally, and team members develop genuine resilience instead of fragility.
Ranger School and combat arms training exemplify leading mentally and physically exhausted people who must execute properly despite extreme stress - the key is maintaining focus on effort and individual growth rather than just mission outcomes.
Outcome-focused leadership neglects the interpersonal 'squishy part' and executive function skills that actually drive sustainable results. Process-focused leadership builds culture, identity, and systems first, allowing outcomes to follow naturally.
The book served as Sharp's personal healing tool, processing childhood trauma and extracting lessons about suffering, trust, and purpose. Those insights now inform Sharp Leadership consulting and his approach to developing purposeful, accountable leaders.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode contains a handful of genuine leadership observations buried under extensive biographical storytelling and host self-insertion, but the actionable insight rate per minute is low. Most wisdom is generic (praise effort over outcome, embrace discomfort, find gratitude) rather than novel or operationally specific for a business context.
allow our people to fail without becoming a failure, right? How do you let people fail without becoming a failure? And that's because you are focusing on praising effort instead of outcome out the gate.
Never in the history of the world have we been this involved in our children's lives, yeah. And never in the history of the world have we had this much mental illness among our children.
The frameworks offered (sliding doors, effort vs. outcome, shared suffering, find what makes your heart sing) are recycled personal-development tropes dressed in military anecdote. There is no contrarian or first-principles argument; every idea is a recognisable self-help concept with a biographical wrapper.
if if you want something different for your life, you need to do different, yeah, you need to be different.
what makes your heart sing is very different. So if you can figure out what makes your heart sing, and if whatever sliding door has opened in front of you and it has made your heart sing, then that is that's the right answer.
Jason Sharp has authentic, hard-earned credentials - extreme poverty upbringing, Ranger School, cancer survival during flight school, national-security programme management - giving him genuine practitioner credibility in the military and personal-resilience space. However, his business leadership experience (small leadership consultancy, cigar lounge) is thin, and his relevance to B2B operators is low.
I spent many years working on various nuclear weapons. Uh currently, I support the Columbia class submarine program, which is the Ohio class replacement program.
I'm a three-time graduate of anger management. I I didn't graduate the fourth time, I smoke cigars now.
Personal narrative details are concrete (named mentors, Ranger School phases, 1,000-mile Wisconsin hike, 200 - 300 miles alone, stem cell transplant timeline), but there is zero business data, no revenue or team-scale figures, no causal evidence for any leadership claim. All specificity is biographical autobiography, not evidence of B2B-relevant outcomes.
I spent a total of 200, 300 miles, like not seeing a single person.
they deployed with 44 people. The time I took them over, they were down to 27.
The host is clearly well-prepared (read the book, references specific stories), but he routinely hijacks the conversation with lengthy personal anecdotes - Walmart shoplifting, West Virginia childhood, Afghanistan deployment, Ranger School recycling - that often run longer than the guest's responses. There is no pushback, no challenging of claims, and the dynamic is mutual validation rather than productive inquiry.
So kind of pivoting back because I totally derailed the conversation
So I was third, I think I was 13 or 14. I was in Walmart, and this is like one of the like most traumatizing experiences of my life. And I just started growing facial hair, right? I was too prideful to ask my mom to buy me a razor.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
We Want To Hear From You Jason Lee Sharp (born November 23, 1986) is a Chicago native, businessman, author, and soldier. He is the founder and CEO of Sharp Leader and Sherris Lounge, an infantry company commander in the Kansas Army National Guard, and the author of Eyes Wide Open: Learning to Suffer. Sharp also serves as a principal program manager at Leonardo DRS and is a member of the board of trustees at St. John’s Northwestern Academies. With a diverse background in leadership, business, and military service, he has focused his career development, growth, and mentorship. Sharp’s journey began in Chicago, where he survived a challenging childhood marked by drugs, homelessness, and the streets. After graduating from St. John’s Northwestern Military Academy, he pursued higher education at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, earning a bachelor’s degree in social welfare. Sharp went on to complete an executive MBA at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. His career spans multiple roles, including positions at Honeywell Aerospace and St. John’s Northwestern Military Academy, before he founded his consulting firm.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
1 - > SPEAKER_00: Our our job as leaders is is to enable our 2 - > people, allow our people to fail without becoming a failure. 3 - > Right? 4 - > How do you let people fail without becoming a failure? 5 - > And that's because you are focusing on praising effort 6 - > instead of outcome out the gate.
7 - > And so when you focus on effort instead of the outcomes, the 8 - > outcomes will follow. 9 - > Right? 10 - > When you focus on the effort, if the effort is there, the 11 - > outcomes will be there, if that makes sense. 12 - > SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Tells of Leadership.
13 - > Our mission is simple to develop a better leader by arming you 14 - > with the tools required to lead with purpose, integrity, and 15 - > accountability. 16 - > This podcast is designed to do one thing. 17 - > Help develop a more purposeful and accountable leader, what I 18 - > like to call a power. 19 - > Leaders who are in the arena making tough decisions, lifting 20 - > others up, and choosing people over their own egos.
21 - > Through real stories and conversations with leaders who 22 - > have walked that path, a powerful leadership lesson, 23 - > you'll gain the wisdom needed to tackle any obstacle this world 24 - > can throw to. 25 - > If you're ready to step into the arena and become the leader your 26 - > team, your family, and your community need, you're in the 27 - > right place. 28 - > This is Tales of Leadership. 29 - > All right, team, welcome back to the Tales of Leadership Podcast.
30 - > I am your host, Josh McMillian, and I am on a journey to become 31 - > the best leader that I possibly can. 32 - > And I plan to do that by bringing on what I like to call 33 - > purposeful, accountable leaders or pals, those who lead with 34 - > intention, integrity, and make an inspired impact. 35 - > I also plan to go through my self-studies, my leadership 36 - > habits, through my journaling experiences, and sharing it with 37 - > you through the lens of my leadership and why.
38 - > It's always important to go through my why. 39 - > I've seen the cost of poor leadership, how it can destroy 40 - > morale, break trust, and in worst cases lead to a loss of 41 - > life, including through suicide. 42 - > And that's why I'm committing my life to helping others lead with 43 - > a purpose. 44 - > And through Tales of Leadership, I share real stories and actual 45 - > insights on how to overcome adversity and become the kind of 46 - > leader people remember for the right reason.
47 - > So a couple free tools. 48 - > If you're new, just go to Linktree slash Tells of 49 - > Leadership. 50 - > Link will be in the bio. 51 - > Everything is there to include the blog articles, uh, coaching 52 - > services, you name it.
53 - > It is all right there as a one-stop shop. 54 - > Uh super easy to do. 55 - > Uh finally, make sure that you stay to the very end, and I'll 56 - > do my top three takeaways. 57 - > But on today's episode, we're going to be bringing on Jason 58 - > Sharp.
59 - > Jason is a Chicago native businessman, author, a soldier. 60 - > He is the founder of CEO of Sharp Leadership and Sarah 61 - > Slounge, an infantry company commander in Kansas Army 62 - > National Guard and the author of Eyes Wide Open, Learning to 63 - > Suffer. 64 - > Sharp also serves as the principal program manager for 65 - > Leonardo DRS and is a member of the board of trustees for St. 66 - > John's Northwestern Academics with a diverse background in 67 - > leadership in business and military service.
68 - > He has continuously shaped his career with a focus on 69 - > development, growth, and mentorship. 70 - > And I'll say all of this too is that Jason has such an impactful 71 - > story, and I really mean that. 72 - > Going back from his childhood, growing up in a family that was 73 - > very dysfunctional, and this one has some cuss words, so just be 74 - > prepared for that one. 75 - > Growing up in a family where his mother was a crack addict and 76 - > his dad spent most of his time in jail and learning how to fend 77 - > for himself and figuring out how to change his life around, 78 - > beginning to trust people again.
79 - > There's so many nuggets in this episode that you can pull from 80 - > uh by the pain that was turned into purpose in Jason's life, 81 - > and we brought it out. 82 - > Um, I'll be honest with you, uh I felt extremely comfortable uh 83 - > with Jason. 84 - > This is one of my favorite episodes. 85 - > And if you're listening to this specific episode, uh this will 86 - > be the last time that I record Tells the Leadership for a long 87 - > period of time.
88 - > The army gets a vote, and I'm gonna be going and doing 89 - > something for the next hundred and twenty days. 90 - > So I will be back even more full of vigor to continue this. 91 - > But let's go ahead and bring on Jason. 92 - > Jason, welcome to the Tells the Leadership Podcast, man.
93 - > How you doing? 94 - > SPEAKER_00: I'm doing fantastic. 95 - > How are you, Jeff? 96 - > SPEAKER_03: So I it it's going it's going well.
97 - > Uh first apologize for the miscommunication within times, 98 - > but we were able to make it work and then also having to 99 - > reschedule. 100 - > So thank thank you genuinely for taking the time out of your day 101 - > um repetitively and getting this thing set on the calendar. 102 - > And if Chris Wheatley, if you're out there in the ether watching 103 - > this, uh thank you for making this connection. 104 - > And I'll start off with, dude, I read and devoured your book uh 105 - > that you sent me probably in five days, just commuting back 106 - > and forth to the Pentagon, uh, hearing your story.
107 - > It's going to be really hard, I think, to capture all the 108 - > lessons learned from your background of everything that 109 - > you've kind of gone through in terms of like suffering, which I 110 - > know is like a main theme for you. 111 - > But we'll try to do our best. 112 - > But again, thanks. 113 - > And uh first all we'll just start off with like a quick 114 - > introduction.
115 - > You want to just quickly introduce yourself uh to the 116 - > audience? 117 - > SPEAKER_00: Certainly. 118 - > Uh my name's Jason Sharp, and uh I'm local here out of Kansas 119 - > City, Missouri. 120 - > I grew up in Chicago, Illinois, but I've been all over the 121 - > country and the world, of course, like many of you that 122 - > are listening.
123 - > And uh, you know, I spent my early early career enlisted, 124 - > became an officer, did that, and then uh I moved into the 125 - > national security realm uh where I currently exist. 126 - > Uh I spent many years working on various nuclear weapons. 127 - > Uh currently, I support the Columbia class submarine 128 - > program, which is the Ohio class replacement program. 129 - > And anybody in the Navy uh working on directed weapons, uh, 130 - > I support the Energy Magazine for that, so you know what I'm 131 - > talking about.
132 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 133 - > SPEAKER_00: And yeah, yeah. 134 - > And so, you know, that's that's really my realm right now. 135 - > Uh, but I enjoy you know, to your point about the book, the 136 - > the book is largely was my healing, and that's that's where 137 - > that that that's where that comes from.
138 - > SPEAKER_03: I definitely like later, I definitely want to tie 139 - > tie into that of like your wilderness journey, if you will. 140 - > Like, I think every every person goes through um a healing to and 141 - > quiet reflection. 142 - > And in a reading through your book, I could definitely connect 143 - > that to how you use that as therapy, especially when you did 144 - > the ice trail. 145 - > We'll get we'll get all to all of those, but I'll start off 146 - > with the first question.
147 - > Um, and it's usually the first question I always throw out 148 - > there is how how do you define leadership in your own terms 149 - > now? 150 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I think for the most part, 151 - > especially at our level, I think we all have developed some level 152 - > of leadership philosophy, right? 153 - > And you know, for me, I think it comes down to depending on the 154 - > level of leadership, or maybe every level of leadership, 155 - > you're trying to get people to do things that they don't want 156 - > to do because they want to do it.
157 - > And that's a very difficult thing to do, right? 158 - > You you we all know the classic definition, you know, purpose, 159 - > direction, and motivation. 160 - > But in large part, a lot of folks that are existing in the 161 - > world today are doing things that they don't want to do. 162 - > So, and they're they're trying to take a step somewhere, 163 - > they're trying to get somewhere, they're trying to you know use 164 - > it as a gateway to their their their uh next stage in life.
165 - > So uh if if you're leading those those people or uh or any any 166 - > any kind of organization, how do you get people to do things uh 167 - > you know in in some common fashion to achieve that common 168 - > purpose, especially if they don't want to do them? 169 - > Uh and that's that's the hard part. 170 - > SPEAKER_03: 100% agree. 171 - > And I think you and I being in a military background, like really 172 - > cutting my teeth, like within leadership, some of the things, 173 - > especially combat arms, being an infantryman, going through 174 - > ranger school, ranger school is a perfect example.
175 - > How do you lead someone who is mentally and physically 176 - > exhausted beyond the point of where normal people never get 177 - > to, but then motivate them enough to actually do a good 178 - > enough job to where it resembles some form of battle drill in a 179 - > way, and that that was super challenging, and I love that 180 - > definition, man. 181 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I think uh the key there, Josh, is 182 - > especially when you're talking about folks that are exhausted 183 - > mentally, physically, right?
184 - > Our our job as leaders is is to enable our people, allow our 185 - > people to fail without becoming a failure, right? 186 - > How do you let people fail without becoming a failure? 187 - > And that's because you are focusing on praising effort 188 - > instead of outcome out the gate. 189 - > And so when you focus on effort instead of the outcomes, the 190 - > outcomes will follow, right?
191 - > When you focus on the effort, if the effort is there, the 192 - > outcomes will be there if you're if if you are focused on that, 193 - > if that makes sense. 194 - > SPEAKER_03: No, I think that's perfect, man. 195 - > Is that it kind of goes back to like James Clear inside out 196 - > thinking of where most people are always focused on the 197 - > outcomes. 198 - > Um and and and nowadays, especially in like leadership, 199 - > and I see it because I've I've seen multiple levels of 200 - > leadership within the civilian and the military world, is 201 - > everyone's focused on outcomes, focused on outcomes, focused on 202 - > outcomes.
203 - > But really, what it is is that the internal processes that get 204 - > you there. 205 - > And if you focus on those things, if you focus on who you 206 - > want to become or how you want to lead from a cultural 207 - > standpoint or a climate standpoint, and the systems to 208 - > get you there, the outcomes will happen naturally. 209 - > But if you're tunnel focused on the outcomes, you forget the 210 - > squishy part of leadership, which is the people. 211 - > It's the uh how you say it, the uh I think the uh executive 212 - > skills that are that are required in that or the or the 213 - > software.
214 - > SPEAKER_00: Executive function skills, exactly. 215 - > That's exactly right. 216 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah. 217 - > Dude, I read your whole book.
218 - > I feel like I know you. 219 - > Um, feel like we're best friends. 220 - > Well, I appreciate that. 221 - > So kind of continuing.
222 - > Yeah, man. 223 - > I think it was great. 224 - > Um, let's start off at the beginning because that's uh how 225 - > the book starts off. 226 - > Walk me through just a young adolescent, Jason.
227 - > Like what was your upbringing like? 228 - > SPEAKER_00: Uh it was, you know, at the time I wouldn't know any 229 - > different, right? 230 - > I look back now, but it was exceptionally challenging. 231 - > I mean, we we suffered.
232 - > That was that was you know, that was our life in Chicago. 233 - > We grew up on the streets. 234 - > My uh my father spent most of my young life in prison, and my 235 - > mother, you know, was a crackhead living on the streets, 236 - > and that's where we lived. 237 - > We ate out of dumpsters, we lived in shelters, foster homes, 238 - > you name it.
239 - > You know, it was uh it was exceptionally challenging, uh 240 - > especially after my younger brother Jesse was born, uh, you 241 - > know, and it was just my sister and I taken care of him. 242 - > You know, the first time I ever stole from anyone was to feed my 243 - > brother. 244 - > Yeah, that that's you know, not trying to to be a bad person, 245 - > I'm trying to feed my family, right? 246 - > And that's a struggle that I think a lot of people have, and 247 - > they don't understand that in some cases, but that's how it 248 - > was.
249 - > You know, it was it was a fight every single day. 250 - > SPEAKER_03: I think one of the one of the stories that that 251 - > stuck out to me, I'll be honest, man, like on the verge of 252 - > crying, is when you learned to stop trusting people. 253 - > And the story was is when you just got this brand new bike, 254 - > awesome bike. 255 - > Uh, you went to sleep the next morning and it wasn't there, and 256 - > then you found out that your mom went out and most likely sold it 257 - > to to buy a driver.
258 - > SPEAKER_00: She did, and and she did. 259 - > And and and we'll get into my mom, you know, she did. 260 - > Uh it's and that's when I learned what might be true today 261 - > and tonight won't necessarily be true in the morning. 262 - > And so, you know, you you have to at that point it was okay, 263 - > it's me, myself, and I.
264 - > Yeah. 265 - > Right. 266 - > That's that's sort of when I felt the most alone. 267 - > It's nothing is true, nothing is real unless I make it real.
268 - > Tough lesson, man. 269 - > SPEAKER_03: When you were when you were going through that, 270 - > like one thing that like just struck me is how you were able 271 - > to have this indomitable mindset through it. 272 - > Um, and there's definitely some like pivot points, but like that 273 - > level of suffering, and I think that's definitely gonna be a 274 - > core theme within this episode, tends to have people go down 275 - > dark rabbit holes. 276 - > Suffering, usually, at least from what I've seen, tends to 277 - > allow the darkness to creep in, not have light within.
278 - > And and I genuinely like 100% impressed by how you were able 279 - > to have such a indomitable mindset. 280 - > I can't think of another word to describe it, uh, to to break 281 - > through that. 282 - > Because most people who would play uh in the Cartman's uh 283 - > Cartman Triangle, they'll play the victim card. 284 - > Well, life isn't meant for me.
285 - > I I'm never gonna try because I'm never gonna get that. 286 - > This is who I am. 287 - > Um, and then no matter what I do, I'm not gonna be able to 288 - > change that fact. 289 - > But you were like, hey, F you, man.
290 - > Uh, I'm gonna figure out a way to do this. 291 - > And story after story after story after story, you just kept 292 - > going, man. 293 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 294 - > And that's you know, the thing about, and I think you 295 - > understand this better than than most civilians, and all of you 296 - > that are out there that have suffered for sure understand 297 - > shared suffering, right?
298 - > Shared suffering is is certainly the the backbone there with my 299 - > sister and my brother, right? 300 - > Where we're in a survival mode. 301 - > Because nobody nobody wakes up and and wants to have a bad day, 302 - > nobody wakes up and and and wants to die, right? 303 - > So you you go into survival mode, and my mother, you know, 304 - > for all of her uh fallacies, she did teach us to survive.
305 - > Like she warned us, like you will be alone, and there will be 306 - > times when I won't be here, and you're only gonna be seven or 307 - > eight years old. 308 - > And so, you know, she warned us and she taught us, and so those 309 - > are some of the you know the things that kept us going from a 310 - > survival perspective. 311 - > But you know, my my sister, she really was the backbone in terms 312 - > of that survival instinct, and and that's really what pushed us 313 - > all to keep moving.
314 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that that's like one of the things I really 315 - > wanted to to dig in and and tap into going through that, I think 316 - > at a very young age, and I think you hit a couple of those points 317 - > already. 318 - > It's like what were some of the key lessons that you learned in 319 - > the most traumatic parts of your life that you were able to carry 320 - > on? 321 - > Uh, and I think like how you just said, suffering is like 322 - > it's unavoidable.
323 - > And I guess like to pull a Marvel quote out, uh like 324 - > Thanos, it's inevitable. 325 - > To live is to suffer, and it doesn't matter what you do, 326 - > where you go, what job you have. 327 - > And I think a perfect example of this is in the news story. 328 - > Um, I can't remember her name to save my life, but a celebrity 329 - > chef.
330 - > Um, she just recently committed suicide. 331 - > And I wish I would remember her name, but I like to me in my 332 - > mind, that person had everything. 333 - > She was uh an icon celebrity chef on TV, uh, and behind the 334 - > scenes, she was she was suffering, um, just like 335 - > everyone else was suffering. 336 - > And to pull those lessons from them, what else did you learn?
337 - > You know, just kind of going through that from adolescent. 338 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, the the biggest thing, even at a 339 - > young age, if I wanted to survive, yeah, I I needed to say 340 - > yes to anything and everything. 341 - > And and that's part of a whole conversation about comfort zones 342 - > and leaving your comfort zone, right? 343 - > And and I yep, and I I I literally just said yes, like 344 - > some random, random act, somebody randomly saying, Well, 345 - > I don't know you, but they said, Look, I'll get I'll give you 50 346 - > bucks if you come to my basement in the back of my house and you 347 - > do these things for me, and by that, you know, clean the 348 - > garage, whatever the case, right?
349 - > Or uh it's you know, by chance, you know, by chance, do you want 350 - > to come and and and help me pass out these fly? 351 - > I just said yes. 352 - > And and and and now I call that you know recognizing sliding 353 - > doors, right? 354 - > Life is full of sliding door events.
355 - > So that's what I that's what I learned to recognize is to jump 356 - > through the sliding door and and and allow every opportunity to 357 - > unfold and then I deal with it. 358 - > SPEAKER_03: Sue, you know, I never I never shy away from uh 359 - > from my faith. 360 - > Um I'm just a very faithful person. 361 - > Uh, and I think a lot of that has been driven through by some 362 - > of the experiences I've gone through in the military, but I 363 - > kind of reflect on sometimes when I pray about something, 364 - > like right, like if I Lord, like I put me in a position of where 365 - > I can live with purpose, uh, fill me with purpose.
366 - > That may manifest in a way of where, uh and I'm using a real 367 - > world example right now. 368 - > I just showed up to a new job, a job that I interviewed for. 369 - > Uh within a week, I was told I'm going to Germany unplanned. 370 - > Uh, and then next week, hey, you're getting a brand new job 371 - > on this very um hot tasker that the army needs you to go do, and 372 - > you're gonna be gone for the next 120 days in Europe.
373 - > Uh I was like, all right, let's do it. 374 - > And I think the standpoint there is that that that that fills me 375 - > with purpose because that mission aligns directly to the 376 - > skill sets that I have. 377 - > But someone looking outside in, like, man, I'm sorry, that that 378 - > sucks. 379 - > Uh, you're gonna be pulled away from your family.
380 - > But I look at it from a perspective of like this is 381 - > filling my soul, and I can go do a greater good, and I'm the 382 - > right person at the time for this. 383 - > And if you don't step into that sliding door, like you said, 384 - > you're never going to move forward. 385 - > Those are the opportunities, and that's what set sets up people 386 - > who are extraordinary in life and people who just glide, is 387 - > that they take those opportunities when they come and 388 - > they don't shy away.
389 - > SPEAKER_00: Exactly. 390 - > No, that's that's that's exactly right. 391 - > Because if you want something different for your life, you 392 - > need to do different, yeah, you need to be different. 393 - > And by that, to your point, an opportunity comes your way, you 394 - > know, you you you you take it.
395 - > And now, yeah, you have the conversation with your family, 396 - > you have the conversation with your wife, right? 397 - > You do those things and you weigh the uh the the the cost, 398 - > you know, you do the cost benefit analysis, right? 399 - > Everybody does that, and sometimes it happens in seconds, 400 - > right? 401 - > But once you figure out the difference between you know 402 - > passion, so for example, passion, right?
403 - > We're passionate about a lot of things, but what makes your 404 - > heart sing is very different. 405 - > So if you can figure out what makes your heart sing, and if 406 - > whatever sliding door has opened in front of you and it has made 407 - > your heart sing, then that is that's the right answer. 408 - > That's the right answer. 409 - > SPEAKER_03: So kind of walking through you know your story, uh, 410 - > where did your childhood turn around?
411 - > I know there was a couple key mentors that really played a 412 - > pivotal role, uh, but walk me through that of where you 413 - > started to build trust again uh and find hope, I think is the 414 - > best word. 415 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'll I'll I'll tell you, uh I'm a 416 - > three-time graduate of anger management. 417 - > I I didn't graduate the fourth time, I smoke cigars now. 418 - > Uh, and that's that's this is my piece.
419 - > But back then, I was a very angry person, a very angry 420 - > child, teenager, etc. 421 - > Uh, I've been arrested more times than I care to admit. 422 - > Uh, been in more fights, street fights, than I like to talk 423 - > about. 424 - > Uh, and I've been expelled from all the Chicago public schools.
425 - > Yeah, and you know, uh I was very fortunate to your point, 426 - > right, to uh meet uh Yael Sedon, Dr. 427 - > Yael Sedon, who became my surrogate mother, and she was 428 - > the first person to really kind of see past all of the 429 - > proverbial walls that I was encapsulated by. 430 - > You know, this guy is just another street kid, this guy is 431 - > just another uh, you know, bum from the street trying to cause 432 - > trouble. 433 - > You know, I wasn't causing trouble, I didn't start any 434 - > fights, right?
435 - > I stopped him. 436 - > Or if somebody fought me, I fought them. 437 - > But I wasn't out there to cause problems, right? 438 - > And so and so, and she recognized that.
439 - > And she she was the first person that I really gave my trust to, 440 - > uh, outside of the family unit, if you will. 441 - > Uh, and that's where it all started, right? 442 - > Was with Yael. 443 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I uh there was there's uh a couple stories from 444 - > there, um, one of which is where you you violated trust uh within 445 - > an aspect of like a split second decision story just stuck with 446 - > me of where, hey, I'm gonna slide this money out of this 447 - > drawer while I'm closing one night.
448 - > Because it was probably and I'm just because I've been there 449 - > before, and it it reminded me of a story of when my grandmother 450 - > refused to let me buy Mario Gall go kart. 451 - > Like, I wanted this from my Nintendo 64. 452 - > Be damned if she won't let me buy this thing, and I didn't 453 - > have. 454 - > Money.
455 - > So my standpoint is like, I'm gonna go in there and I'm gonna 456 - > I'm gonna take that ten dollars and I paid for it. 457 - > And then afterwards, uh she comes and it's like I'm so 458 - > disappointed in you, Josh. 459 - > I'm not even mad, I'm disappointed that you did that. 460 - > And then like the the level that it sunk me down to, that is a 461 - > core memory.
462 - > And when I read that your book, it it just brought me back to 463 - > that time. 464 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. 465 - > So she actually uh that experience, that moment in time 466 - > and space was the the is the bedrock for one of the tenets of 467 - > my my leadership philosophy and and which we talked about 468 - > earlier, letting people fail without becoming a failure. 469 - > And that's what she did, right?
470 - > Because I did steal from her, and and you know, I I I I I just 471 - > resorted to basic uh you know street life, like okay, well, 472 - > there's a so it goes a little deeper. 473 - > I think there's two kinds of thieves in this world, you know, 474 - > there's yeah, meat eaters and grass eaters, you know. 475 - > The meat eater intentionally breaks the lock to get into 476 - > whatever it is to steal something. 477 - > And the grass eater is like, oh look, there's 20 bucks sitting 478 - > right there.
479 - > I'm gonna just grab that. 480 - > Uh, and that's what I did. 481 - > And Yael, you know, to your point, wasn't angry, she was 482 - > disappointed, and that broke my heart. 483 - > And she she she reinforced the fact that all you had to do was 484 - > say, Yeah, L, can I please have an extra 20 bucks?
485 - > I I, you know, that's all that's all I had to say. 486 - > And uh I didn't know that, right? 487 - > I you know, that's not something that I knew. 488 - > I was 13 years old, you know.
489 - > And so she reinforced that in my head, and that was the trigger 490 - > for you know enabling that trust, but also, right, okay, I 491 - > just really, I mean, I really messed up, yeah. 492 - > But but it's not over, it's not the end of the world, right? 493 - > We can fix this, and and and you can fix anything if you you make 494 - > that mistake, but you need people like that that are 495 - > willing to see through you know, through the the the surface 496 - > layer and look past and and enable you to be successful as 497 - > opposed to okay, you're now a failure forever.
498 - > SPEAKER_03: I'll share a vulnerable story with you 499 - > because it definitely resonated. 500 - > Um when I took over my platoon in Afghanistan, uh they deployed 501 - > with 44 people. 502 - > The time I took them over, they were down to 27. 503 - > And I met my platoon sergeant and all my leadership in my 504 - > platoon at um Sergeant Rodriguez's memorial, just 505 - > passed away in a complex ambush.
506 - > And I remember going um into that job, and I had a very I had 507 - > a very selfish mentality at the time. 508 - > Um, of uh like I wanted to go, uh wanted to go do you know 509 - > stuff, and I wanted to go get into as many gunfights as I 510 - > possibly could because I wanted to go to Ranger Regiment. 511 - > Like I was thinking very selfishly um at that time. 512 - > And I I remember vividly that that was a turning point for me 513 - > of where I really needed to focus on the the processes and 514 - > the systems, uh, but most importantly, like be selfless in 515 - > a way and learning from my NCOs.
516 - > Uh it was such a brutal experience of like being a 517 - > platoon leader in garrison versus combat and like failing. 518 - > I remember sometimes that this is a crazy story. 519 - > I took a um bath in the Argonda River with my Afghan platoon 520 - > counterparts probably an hour before we got into a complex 521 - > ambush by like over 70 people. 522 - > And I remember my platoon started telling me, he's like, 523 - > You go out there, you're gonna die.
524 - > It's like, but this is how we build trust. 525 - > Um, and I remember just stumbling, like just continually 526 - > stumbling. 527 - > But my platoon sergeant that I had on this show, Derek Kearns, 528 - > one of the best humans I've ever met in my life, did not give up 529 - > on me. 530 - > He continued to work with me.
531 - > And I and I I 100% say that the reason I am today won the 532 - > General Douglas MacArthur Award, all these things, just titles 533 - > that I've done, is because he instilled the the core tenets of 534 - > leadership, uh selfless service in who I am today. 535 - > SPEAKER_00: And that's what it takes, right? 536 - > But you also have to recognize when somebody's trying to be 537 - > that person for you, and you have to nurture that 538 - > relationship, you have to nurture that mentorship and 539 - > recognize it for real, be intentional about it.
540 - > Yeah, and and a lot of folks aren't because we're moving so 541 - > fast, and and we don't realize when somebody is actually truly 542 - > trying to be in your corner and and and help you know be that 543 - > successful uh person in life, you know. 544 - > SPEAKER_03: You know, that that's an interesting 545 - > standpoint, is that I feel like too many nowadays we we are 546 - > moving so fast that we don't slow down and actually help 547 - > people uh when they need help.
548 - > Because you, for example, you you were dealt a bad hand, like 549 - > you know, no no qualms about it. 550 - > You had a you had a shitty childhood, um, but someone gave 551 - > you a second chance. 552 - > Nowadays, I feel most people overlook that person, and we 553 - > need to get back into that because at the end of the day, 554 - > leadership's not a popularity contest, it's not about making 555 - > more money, it's about taking care of people. 556 - > Um, that's the core tenet of it, a hundred percent.
557 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know what's interesting that you say 558 - > that, uh, because I think I think there's some reasons for 559 - > that. 560 - > Uh, I look back at the Chicago police, uh, and I look, you 561 - > know, in those days, and I look back at the police that we have 562 - > today, uh, and I love all of my cops. 563 - > I mean, my whole family is cops, man. 564 - > My sister's a Chicago cop, my brother's KCPD here in Kansas 565 - > City, like we love our cops.
566 - > But it's not, I'm not talking about the cops themselves, I'm 567 - > talking about the culture that has shifted. 568 - > Uh, you know, I I I get caught stealing a loaf of bread, and 569 - > the cop snatches you up and says, take your ass home. 570 - > You know, put that, you know, go home. 571 - > Now, you know, now the cop, you know, that officer, the body 572 - > cam's rolling.
573 - > They have to take that child to jail. 574 - > Like you can't just say, you can't just say, you know what, 575 - > young man, you know what, young lady, I'm gonna take you to your 576 - > mom. 577 - > Yeah, you can't say that anymore, right? 578 - > So there's a whole shift, a paradigm.
579 - > And I'm not and and the officers is just an example, just an 580 - > example. 581 - > That makes sense, Josh. 582 - > SPEAKER_03: It does, and I've never told the story before, um, 583 - > but I will. 584 - > So I was third, I think I was 13 or 14.
585 - > I was in Walmart, and this is like one of the like most 586 - > traumatizing experiences of my life. 587 - > And I just started growing facial hair, right? 588 - > I was too prideful to ask my mom to buy me a razor. 589 - > So I go in there and I steal it, and then I go to the bathroom 590 - > and like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shave my face.
591 - > Dude walks in, like, cuffs me, takes me into this little secret 592 - > squirrel place in Walmart where all the cameras and stuff are. 593 - > He's like, hey, we caught you shoplifting. 594 - > Uh, cop comes in, Summersville PD, and he's like, bro, what are 595 - > you doing? 596 - > And he didn't use those words.
597 - > He's like, you know, you could have ended your your your your 598 - > your life with this, right? 599 - > Like you could you could go to juvenile jail trying to like 600 - > scare me and all that stuff, but at the end of the day, he handed 601 - > me over to my mom. 602 - > But like today, like to your point, if that were to happen 603 - > today, what would happen to someone? 604 - > Because, like, to you, and another point too is like 605 - > emotional intelligence.
606 - > When you're younger, you have a really hard time of processing 607 - > self-emotions because the emotions come in, typically we 608 - > respond immediately before we can actually manage them. 609 - > And as a young man, my son's out there right now just being an 610 - > absolutely crazy person. 611 - > I can hear him yelling, and I can't I can't gauge or judge him 612 - > as how I was judge you or me based on our decisions. 613 - > But I mean, that's an excellent point, dude.
614 - > Like the rise of body cams and stuff like that. 615 - > I've never thought about it. 616 - > As that's probably why we are way harder. 617 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it prevents, it prevents the uh what's the 618 - > word?
619 - > Um, help me out here, Josh. 620 - > Uh, you don't have the discretion. 621 - > SPEAKER_03: Police discretion. 622 - > SPEAKER_00: You don't have the discretion, exactly.
623 - > Yeah, you don't have the discretion anymore. 624 - > And that goes for everybody. 625 - > That goes for school teachers, that goes for mentors, coaches. 626 - > You don't have discretion anymore.
627 - > It's it's it's a huge paradigm shift in our in the way our 628 - > young people are existing and experience the world today. 629 - > It's it's very simple. 630 - > If there's a problem, you must do this. 631 - > You must write it up, report, this is this.
632 - > Uh or it cost that coach, that officer, that teacher their 633 - > life. 634 - > And so there's no discretion, you know. 635 - > And that's that's I I think it's something that we need to get a 636 - > hold of very soon, uh, or we're gonna see some very interesting 637 - > times to come. 638 - > SPEAKER_03: And I think too, so I was a criminal justice major 639 - > before.
640 - > Side note, the only reason I'm a criminal justice major, full 641 - > transparency, is to get a good GPA so I could be an infantry 642 - > officer. 643 - > SPEAKER_04: That's the only reason. 644 - > I got you, man. 645 - > SPEAKER_03: It's the only reason.
646 - > Um, and then the army did a 180 on me be like, hey, now you're 647 - > gonna go get a master's assistance engineering. 648 - > SPEAKER_04: I'm like, that doesn't that doesn't uh 649 - > correlate. 650 - > That does not compute. 651 - > SPEAKER_03: But but I remember like going through a lot of 652 - > those classes and specifically, right, like incarceration.
653 - > And I was listening to a Joe Rogan episode recently, and he 654 - > had like a lifelong uh criminal and that just recently got out, 655 - > and he made like an interesting perspective is that he was 656 - > locked up in solitary confinement. 657 - > So, like even when you go to prison, right? 658 - > Locked up in solitary confinement for almost two years 659 - > at a time for doing really small stuff. 660 - > He was able at the time to use that as reflection and starting 661 - > to write and do different books and different things like that, 662 - > and he he he he healed himself.
663 - > But nowadays, I feel like people with the insta gratification and 664 - > social media and all this stuff that we have, isolation um and 665 - > going to like prison is the probably the worst thing that 666 - > you could do. 667 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's the worst thing, and and it's the 668 - > way uh oh gosh, what's her name? 669 - > I have to remember, and I'll cite it for you and I'll give it 670 - > to your read your your listeners. 671 - > Uh there's a uh gosh, so basically her her philosophy is 672 - > very simple.
673 - > Never in the history of the world have we been this involved 674 - > in our children's lives, yeah. 675 - > And never in the history of the world have we had this much 676 - > mental illness among our children. 677 - > Yeah, so there's a correlation there, and you know the the the 678 - > interesting thing that we're seeing is our children are not 679 - > able to uh solve their own problems, they're not able to 680 - > act on their own. 681 - > And so those those children are growing up to be grown folk that 682 - > are unable to do that, you know.
683 - > SPEAKER_03: That's that's one of the concerns, too, that I have. 684 - > Um, and that's a skill set of mine, too, is like artificial 685 - > intelligence and machine learning. 686 - > It is a great tool to have, but it is a tool, and if you 687 - > over-leverage it, you're losing critical aspects of just being a 688 - > human and the human experience of critically problem solving, 689 - > sitting and reflecting and being quiet sometimes and thinking 690 - > about a problem is not only therapeutic, it is a life skill 691 - > that you need.
692 - > And if you could just go and chat GPT or Gronk or Gemini or 693 - > whatever and say, write this paper for me, or yeah, how do I 694 - > solve this and just go through that? 695 - > You're shutting your brain off. 696 - > So it's just another aspect of like social media where we are 697 - > at a youth level cutting off all those neurons that need to make 698 - > those pathways to be a functioning human. 699 - > So, like to your point, that's probably definitely a reason 700 - > that there's a higher um cognitive decline, I guess, 701 - > within like our youth of having all these behavioral issues.
702 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, think about uh Legos. 703 - > Simple, right? 704 - > Back in the day, you drop a bucket of Legos, like you you 705 - > did something with it. 706 - > Right nowadays, it comes with a very specific set of 707 - > instructions, and that's that and that's okay, you know, 708 - > because that you know, we have a lot of architects and engineers, 709 - > and they follow plans, they develop plans, and they're 710 - > brilliant.
711 - > But you end up, you know, you end up relying on this set of 712 - > instructions, and then there's a select few that are developing 713 - > the instructions. 714 - > Because you you you can't just drop a bucket of Lagos and still 715 - > build a house. 716 - > Most people need the set of instructions. 717 - > And and and that's that's uh I I think a pretty good example of 718 - > what you're talking about, you know, from a problem-solving, 719 - > uh, you know, critical thinking perspective, that uh we're gonna 720 - > we're gonna reap what we sow here soon.
721 - > And the paradigm will shift. 722 - > The the pendulum, the pendulum hits and it'll swing all the way 723 - > back. 724 - > You know, just give it time. 725 - > Yeah, it's uh the gentle parenting era is pretty much 726 - > over.
727 - > So I I don't know. 728 - > SPEAKER_03: You and I had like polar polar opposite childhood, 729 - > but I grew up in rural West Virginia, like rural. 730 - > I don't even think there's internet still, like where I I 731 - > grew up. 732 - > SPEAKER_00: I spent some time in West Virginia.
733 - > I lived in West Virginia, yeah. 734 - > SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so you you know what I'm talking about. 735 - > Yeah, yeah. 736 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh we definitely did not have uh a gentle upbringing.
737 - > I remember I had to go out and get a switch. 738 - > I had to go pull my own uh stick off a tree, and I'd always get 739 - > like a small one because I thought the small ones wouldn't 740 - > hurt as bad. 741 - > Nope. 742 - > Nah, yeah.
743 - > That was that was a that was an error on my part. 744 - > SPEAKER_00: Oh man, we had so many kids, we had so many kids, 745 - > like like they would line us up. 746 - > If somebody did something, everybody got their ass whooped. 747 - > You know, so they'd line us all up and and we would fight each 748 - > other to really to be in the beginning or the end.
749 - > Because when whoever you know, they start whooping that ass, 750 - > you wanted to be in the beginning or the end, because 751 - > they were either getting warmed up by the time they got to the 752 - > middle, you really got your ass whooped, and by the time they 753 - > got to the end, they were tired, you know. 754 - > It was and we would fight each other. 755 - > It's like, nah, you're on the you're on the end this time, 756 - > you're in the beginning of this time.
757 - > You know, I I I know exactly what you're talking about. 758 - > SPEAKER_04: So kind of pivoting back because I totally derailed 759 - > the conversation, going back to after your childhood, right? 760 - > SPEAKER_03: Another critical part, I think, of your story was 761 - > going to Northwestern Military Academy, like that transition uh 762 - > from adolescence, getting your your shit together, lack of a 763 - > better term, and then actually going out and doing something 764 - > that I think through your story was where you first saw that 765 - > that was a pivot point in your life, that I'm actually going to 766 - > go do something that is selfless and selfish in a way.
767 - > Because at the first you you were guilty of leaving your 768 - > family, but it was really selfless because you changed the 769 - > trajectory of your family's life. 770 - > Walk me through that. 771 - > SPEAKER_00: So that was the first real palpable sliding 772 - > door. 773 - > Okay.
774 - > That I said yes to, and everybody was afraid. 775 - > Like, I mean, my family thought like this woman was kidnapping 776 - > me, you know. 777 - > Oh wow. 778 - > And and this, right?
779 - > Like, who is this woman taking you where? 780 - > Right? 781 - > This is it was very interesting, right? 782 - > This is what it is in in the in the city.
783 - > It's like, who who wants to do what with you? 784 - > And to me, it was like, I don't, I this is I'm gonna do it. 785 - > I'm gonna go. 786 - > She offered this to me, and I'm gonna say yes.
787 - > So it was it was a it was a very conscious decision to say yes. 788 - > And that is that sliding uh door, you know, philosophy that 789 - > I continue that I believe to to to this day. 790 - > Uh and you know, getting, but yeah, it it was it was 791 - > abandoning my sister and my brother, leaving them to to 792 - > further suffer on their own. 793 - > Uh, and that was very tough, man.
794 - > It was it it's it was very, very, very difficult. 795 - > Uh but I I I rethink, you know, I thought long and hard at that 796 - > time, and like, okay, I can do something with this, and I can 797 - > break free, and I can I can destroy and pommel the 798 - > generational curses, and I could potentially do something to help 799 - > bring us all out of this pit. 800 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 801 - > SPEAKER_00: And and so that was that was the idea.
802 - > You know, and and having that opportunity, you know, when you 803 - > get those kinds of opportunities, you don't 804 - > squander. 805 - > Yeah, right. 806 - > You don't you don't, you know, I don't know, can we cuss on here? 807 - > SPEAKER_04: Like you don't fuck about yeah, you don't shit 808 - > several times.
809 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you don't fuck about, man. 810 - > You you do you do the damn thing, and and that that was 811 - > really important to me because you know there was a lot of 812 - > folks that were there that maybe they didn't have as much on at 813 - > stake, but everybody that was there was putting in the work. 814 - > Yeah, and that's what it was that that's what I thrived on. 815 - > And of course, you know, it was at that point that I met uh 816 - > Brian Galarza.
817 - > Uh big shout out to Brian, and I really hope, Josh, you get Brian 818 - > on because if you get Brian on, I doubt you'll get like two 819 - > words in. 820 - > He's a talker. 821 - > SPEAKER_04: But you're gonna love it. 822 - > SPEAKER_00: This is the best episodes.
823 - > You're gonna love him, man. 824 - > You're gonna love him to death. 825 - > He's such an amazing guy. 826 - > But he's literally the greatest mentor I've ever had.
827 - > Him and Yael are the shoulders that I've stood on for my entire 828 - > life. 829 - > Uh and there are many others, but those two shaped me, right? 830 - > Yeah, Yeah, she helped me develop the moral compass that I 831 - > live with today, and Brian helped me become the man, the 832 - > values that I live by. 833 - > Right?
834 - > And and and those are those are the people that uh really really 835 - > drive it. 836 - > I mean, really, you gotta recognize, really drive it home 837 - > for you. 838 - > There's everyone has that person, you just may not have 839 - > recognized them, and you really should. 840 - > You really need to recognize them, you need to vocalize them, 841 - > and and you need to make sure that they know that that that 842 - > that they're the reason that you exist today.
843 - > So, yeah, St. 844 - > John's, that place, man, absolutely amazing. 845 - > And to this day. 846 - > So I actually I sit on their board of trustees to this day, 847 - > uh, to continue to shape the outcomes of young people so that 848 - > you know I can I can give back in some way.
849 - > Uh, you know, and and if I could, I I would I would be 850 - > there every day. 851 - > But you know, it's very challenging. 852 - > And right now, what's today? 853 - > Today's the 31st, yeah.
854 - > So tomorrow they start a really cool program that I started 855 - > there called Raider School. 856 - > Like, yeah, and it's meant to it's meant to mimic at a very 857 - > low-level threat uh ranger school, but for youth, right? 858 - > It's really launching them out of their comfort zone and and 859 - > into a phase of enlightenment that that their bodies and their 860 - > minds can do a whole lot more, right? 861 - > You know exactly what I'm talking about.
862 - > Most of you know what I'm talking about. 863 - > So uh, but yeah, that place they they really did uh help shape 864 - > shift and and point me in that direction that I needed to be 865 - > in. 866 - > SPEAKER_03: I think um one of the quotes that you had from 867 - > your book is everything I did was a no-fell event. 868 - > That resonated with me from the standpoint different stories, 869 - > but I was the first person ever in my family to kind of break 870 - > the mold of either join the military or join the coal mine.
871 - > Join the military, join the coal mine. 872 - > I was dead set on going to school. 873 - > I wanted to go to college, so I had to figure out how to do 874 - > that. 875 - > Um, how do I do that?
876 - > Well, I didn't take an ACT because my mom and dad got a 877 - > divorce, so I didn't know you had to take a standardized test 878 - > to get into college. 879 - > So I figured I just stumbled my way through it. 880 - > And um, I was in the community college at Marshall University 881 - > for the first semester until I got good enough grades, and then 882 - > I found out how expensive school was. 883 - > Like, well, shit, can't afford that.
884 - > My dad can't afford that. 885 - > How are we gonna do this? 886 - > I become a resident advisor and join the National Guard and live 887 - > on a floor and be a resident advisor for like a special needs 888 - > floor, which was a humbling learning experience in itself. 889 - > And then I joined ROTC and then eventually first person in my 890 - > family to get a college degree and then get a master's degree.
891 - > But I remember going through um school, everyone was partying, 892 - > they were having a good time, and my mentally I was focused, I 893 - > was switched on I'm gonna get A's, I'm going to pass, I'm 894 - > gonna graduate as quickly as I can because my dad's helping me 895 - > pay for this. 896 - > Um, and I can't fail him. 897 - > Like every day was a no-fell event, and honestly, that that's 898 - > one of the core tenets of like who I am today. 899 - > When I was going to ranger school, no-fell event.
900 - > I gotta pass this patrol. 901 - > Why? 902 - > Because I can't be a successful, in my eyes at the time, platoon 903 - > leader, unless I have this. 904 - > I need to show up with my tab.
905 - > Yeah, or I'm not, I'm not, I'm nothing. 906 - > SPEAKER_00: That's the mindset. 907 - > Same mindset I had. 908 - > Uh I was class five twelve, I'm sure, when you went through, 909 - > Josh.
910 - > Uh, but same same mindset. 911 - > Like I didn't want to get to I I didn't feel like I could stand 912 - > in front of my soldiers, you know, if I if I uh if I didn't 913 - > if I didn't achieve that, you know. 914 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 915 - > SPEAKER_03: It's like no.
916 - > I'm trying to look on the wall and see what my class was. 917 - > I'm God, what you don't know your class, Jazz? 918 - > SPEAKER_00: I've got to call you out, bro. 919 - > Yeah.
920 - > SPEAKER_03: October 2011 is when I graduated. 921 - > So it's you and I. 922 - > Okay, let's let's jump to that one and I'll come back to your 923 - > school. 924 - > You and I share the scene.
925 - > SPEAKER_00: You gotta be like you gotta be 10-11 or something, 926 - > then something like that. 927 - > SPEAKER_03: But I was a summer ranger. 928 - > I didn't I I enjoyed my winner ranger. 929 - > SPEAKER_00: We were still in green, so we could sew it on 930 - > with white stitching, you know?
931 - > Yeah. 932 - > SPEAKER_03: Um so you and I share a very similar story 933 - > through Ranger School. 934 - > Go through um the first phase at Derby, uh, knock that out, go 935 - > through mountains, knock that out, uh, doing really well. 936 - > Get to Florida, and it just kicks me in the butt, and then I 937 - > end up recycling.
938 - > And I remember, and you you painted this really well in your 939 - > book. 940 - > For no one who's gone to Ranger School, it's it's not a school 941 - > like selection for tier one level organizations or long 942 - > walk. 943 - > It is a grueling 60, most likely 90 days, um, school that will 944 - > test you to your physical limits of not only you, but how to lead 945 - > other people in that. 946 - > Nothing that you do is overly hard or complicated.
947 - > What makes it hard and complicated is that you are on a 948 - > caloric intake deficit and you're getting zero sleep, and 949 - > you may be able to do that functionally for a week or two. 950 - > Well, now do it for 60 days straight. 951 - > Um, that is a challenge, uh, 100%. 952 - > But I got the Florida recycled.
953 - > I was like, well crap, I am a failure again at life, and there 954 - > was a tropical storm coming through. 955 - > So you remember um in those bays where they had those stairs 956 - > going up, everyone's care packages were on those stairs, 957 - > like literally all the way to the third floor. 958 - > Dude, I gained like 20 pounds over a course of 20 days before 959 - > the next glass came in because of this class. 960 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
961 - > Man, I you know, I actually I think probably recycling Florida 962 - > was the most beneficial thing that could have happened to me 963 - > for probably two or three reasons. 964 - > The first is that my my Ranger buddy Todd Patterson, if you're 965 - > out there, brother, that's another guy. 966 - > Todd Patterson, you gotta get this guy on, man. 967 - > SPEAKER_02: He's okay.
968 - > SPEAKER_00: This guy broke his Achilles. 969 - > Oh wow, and I remember him suffering through the Derby 970 - > phase to literally not get booted out, you know? 971 - > And he couldn't walk, but he could run. 972 - > Interesting.
973 - > So he couldn't run, like he couldn't run fast, you know, but 974 - > he can move like an airborne shuffle, and that's all he did 975 - > the whole time. 976 - > And it was so yes, I swear to God, I was like, bro, I need you 977 - > to slow down, I'm tired, you know. 978 - > But he he was moving anyways. 979 - > Todd Patterson, the reason I say that that's important is because 980 - > he recycled, so I moved past mountain phase, he recycled 981 - > mountains, so I left him behind in mountains, and then he caught 982 - > up with me in Florida phase.
983 - > We were together again, so that made me exceptionally like 984 - > happy, like I was a happy person. 985 - > Like, man, I just I got to see one of my guys and we were 986 - > together again, so that was really important. 987 - > But uh you know, the the other reason that recycling was so 988 - > first you you just you just learn a whole lot more, yeah. 989 - > And I mean you just you just absolutely learn a whole lot 990 - > more, uh, and and it's definitely a humbling 991 - > experience.
992 - > Uh but at the end of the day, recycling is crushing. 993 - > SPEAKER_02: Yep. 994 - > SPEAKER_00: And you know, I don't know if anybody out there 995 - > is a back to the future fan, or if you're a Michael J. 996 - > Fox fan, but if you recognize this quote, Michael J.
997 - > Fox said this, and this is this is what I uh continue to think 998 - > in my head, it's about being grateful, right? 999 - > Because he says with gratitude, with gratitude, optimism is 1000 - > sustainable. 1001 - > All right, how do you stay optimistic? 1002 - > And it's because I was grateful in general just to be there and 1003 - > have that opportunity, and that allowed me, that enabled me to 1004 - > continue to move forward.
1005 - > And then when I got then when I saw Todd uh and Bryant, like my 1006 - > guy Bryant, he and I were we're we're right next to each other 1007 - > in our graduation folder or picture. 1008 - > Uh when I saw those two, like I was beyond invincible, you know. 1009 - > Yeah, like that's what it is. 1010 - > And this just goes all the way back to shared suffering, and 1011 - > and it's so important.
1012 - > So I I you know though recycling Florida, hands down, one of the 1013 - > best experiences of my life. 1014 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it it was um the same, uh, good and bad. 1015 - > Bad because I made a horrible decision, not horrible decision 1016 - > from the standpoint that I married the love of my life, 1017 - > horrible decision that I went to eyebolic and I had two days in 1018 - > between before Ranger School, went back home to West Virginia, 1019 - > got married, and then went to Ranger School, and then my wife 1020 - > was working in Huntsville or uh Huntington, um, West Virginia at 1021 - > the time as a nurse, and she was tracking when I was going to 1022 - > graduate.
1023 - > She's gonna come move out to with me in Phoenix City, and I 1024 - > call her, like standing there in the line. 1025 - > It's like and she's all excited. 1026 - > She's like, Hey, when are you coming home? 1027 - > It's like uh did you quit your job already?
1028 - > Could to come? 1029 - > Yes, it's like okay. 1030 - > Well, good and bad news. 1031 - > Good news is I love you, you're married to me, so that's good.
1032 - > Bad, I failed. 1033 - > I want to be here for another 30 days. 1034 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it sucks, man. 1035 - > Yeah, that sucks.
1036 - > It definitely sucks. 1037 - > Yeah, yeah, that that's it's it's crushing, man. 1038 - > Like that's the I from a man, a manly experience, memory 1039 - > experience, like crying. 1040 - > Yeah, that was that was a moment in time and space when I sat 1041 - > there on that wet, sopping ass log bench.
1042 - > You know, we're just and I'm sitting there thinking, they 1043 - > called me from my patrol, and I'm like, fuck, I gotta get this 1044 - > right, you know. 1045 - > I gotta get this right. 1046 - > SPEAKER_03: You also had actions on, right? 1047 - > Uh Santa Rosa Island.
1048 - > Oh, yeah, yeah, man. 1049 - > SPEAKER_00: We had a good time, bro. 1050 - > SPEAKER_03: That's the hardest one to have, and you gotta get a 1051 - > little bit more. 1052 - > SPEAKER_00: So congratulations.
1053 - > We had a good time. 1054 - > Well, you know, it wasn't me that got to go, right? 1055 - > It was the collective, and that's what was good about it, 1056 - > man. 1057 - > Uh, I remember the moon.
1058 - > I remember it was such perfect, such perfect lighting. 1059 - > Uh, it was just beautiful, man. 1060 - > Like it was such an epic experience. 1061 - > Absolutely.
1062 - > So, and I wouldn't have had that I had I not recycled. 1063 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah. 1064 - > I went to uh when I was stationed at Fort Polk, 1065 - > Louisiana, I went to Destin, Florida with my family uh for a 1066 - > vacation. 1067 - > Dude, I was so lost mentally of where I was in Florida when I 1068 - > was going through Ranger School, I had no idea that Eglin Air 1069 - > Force Base was right there, and Santa Rosa Island is right 1070 - > there.
1071 - > We're driving in, and I'm like, this looks very familiar. 1072 - > And I start getting like flashbacks, it's like, and I 1073 - > look it up, it's like that's ranger school. 1074 - > I don't want to go here on vacation anymore. 1075 - > Let's find another location.
1076 - > Yeah. 1077 - > Oh man. 1078 - > Um, all right. 1079 - > So back to your story, right?
1080 - > Like uh going through the academy, you raise you rise to 1081 - > the uh core of cadets, which is like no small feat in itself, 1082 - > but there was a specific story in the book that I think there's 1083 - > a valuable lesson in. 1084 - > Um, of where you caught someone, I think it was selling tobacco 1085 - > on your four. 1086 - > Walk me through that story and walk me through the lesson that 1087 - > you learned. 1088 - > SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting because as I smoke a cigar right 1089 - > now, right?
1090 - > Uh you know, the so I was a junior and I was not so I was 1091 - > Foxtrot Company, which is you know, culturally in that space, 1092 - > that was like the cat's meow. 1093 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 1094 - > SPEAKER_00: And Brian Galarza was our tack, it was amazing. 1095 - > We had such a great year, great experience.
1096 - > And my entire intention uh uh was okay, I'm gonna just I'm 1097 - > gonna hopefully I'll become the commander of this foxtruck 1098 - > company. 1099 - > That's my goal. 1100 - > Well, uh this what's his name? 1101 - > His name was like Levian or something, I believe.
1102 - > This is right in the book. 1103 - > I'm pretty sure. 1104 - > I'm sorry, Levian, if you're out there, bro, and you're 1105 - > listening, man. 1106 - > I hope you're okay.
1107 - > But uh he was he was he was the probably one of the most 1108 - > arrogant SOBs I ever met. 1109 - > And you know, back then, this is another paradigm shift, and I 1110 - > won't go off topic too much, but um we had you know 11 and 1111 - > 12-year-olds, up to 18-year-olds all in the same group. 1112 - > SPEAKER_03: Okay, oh wow. 1113 - > SPEAKER_00: So nowadays everybody's separated.
1114 - > Nowadays you got seventh graders are all in the same company, 1115 - > eighth graders are all in the same company, right? 1116 - > But back then everybody was together, and so uh and it 1117 - > helped it helped those young people, in my opinion. 1118 - > It helped those, it helped the youngins grow up faster, right? 1119 - > Now everybody's just afraid that they're gonna get hurt, so they 1120 - > separate them.
1121 - > Well, back then it was my responsibility to protect these 1122 - > youngins, and this guy continued to uh you know bring uh chewing 1123 - > tobacco. 1124 - > And look, I smoke cigars, I've never had a cigarette a day in 1125 - > my life, I've never popped a chew, I've never smoked a joint, 1126 - > but I'll smoke a good cigar. 1127 - > And you know, but this guy he kept uh selling these kids this 1128 - > tobacco on my floor, and and I and I had to remind him 1129 - > repeatedly, get the fuck off my floor.
1130 - > You know, this is not your space. 1131 - > These are he's eight, he's about to graduate, you know, he's 18 1132 - > years old. 1133 - > These kids are 11 and 12, like they don't need to be doing 1134 - > that. 1135 - > Okay, you're gonna sell it to another senior, cool, do what 1136 - > you do.
1137 - > But these other kids, they're not your business, they're my 1138 - > business. 1139 - > And uh and he spit he spit in my face. 1140 - > So, you know, I ended up smashing his face in. 1141 - > I threw him against the wall really bad, and by that I mean I 1142 - > smashed his face into the wall.
1143 - > And we got into it, you know, and we got into it really bad. 1144 - > And at the time, uh Rear Admiral Ronald J. 1145 - > Kurth was the uh president of the academy. 1146 - > Uh, he actually was the Russian attaché to the Pentagon during 1147 - > the Cold War.
1148 - > Look him up, Ronald J. 1149 - > Kurth. 1150 - > He recently passed, really great individual. 1151 - > Uh, but uh, you know, he pulls me into his office and he says, 1152 - > uh, you know, I just I just hospital hospitalized this kid, 1153 - > you know.
1154 - > And I'm thinking, shit, I'm about to be expelled. 1155 - > I'm back to my Chicago days, you know, because I lost my shit, 1156 - > man. 1157 - > I lost my shit. 1158 - > And he looks at me and he says, Well, what happened?
1159 - > I said, Well, he's he spit on me. 1160 - > And he the admiral says, So he deserved it. 1161 - > I said, Yes, sir. 1162 - > He goes, All right, carry on.
1163 - > That was it. 1164 - > And I was like, that's it. 1165 - > So then a week later, that's when I got like they selected me 1166 - > to be the first captain of the corps, which was a really 1167 - > amazing opportunity and experience for where I was, 1168 - > right? 1169 - > Four years ago, I didn't have a bed to sleep in.
1170 - > You know, and now and now, you know, I'm I just you know, I 1171 - > kind of relapsed uh and I went to Chicago on this kid, but they 1172 - > still saw past all of that, and they they you know they saw that 1173 - > that I wasn't doing anything wrong, but rather protecting and 1174 - > they promoted me. 1175 - > Yeah, and that's so different now, you know. 1176 - > SPEAKER_03: You you saying that, and me remembering, I think, 1177 - > return to the standard, return to the standard.
1178 - > That's the motto for the core. 1179 - > He saw something in you is that hey, there's a standard in this 1180 - > organization, and if you cross it, there's consequences. 1181 - > Um, and I really think nowadays leaders are afraid to hold 1182 - > people accountable, and and that's the unpopular part of 1183 - > being a leader. 1184 - > Like sometimes you have to hold people accountable.
1185 - > And to your point, um maybe that accountability is wall-to-wall 1186 - > counseling. 1187 - > I don't know. 1188 - > I'm not saying that that that is the answer, but it's definitely 1189 - > something that is a valuable teaching point that I got from 1190 - > your book is that leadership's not a popularity contest, you're 1191 - > never gonna make everyone happy. 1192 - > And if you see something, you have to correct it.
1193 - > That that's your job. 1194 - > Um, you need to do that because if you walk by it and you don't 1195 - > correct it, it's only going to get worse. 1196 - > And now you set a new standard in the organization, you're 1197 - > gonna have 11 and 12-year-old kids walking around with dips 1198 - > in. 1199 - > That's that that's not good for anyone.
1200 - > SPEAKER_00: Same thing for our young soldiers today. 1201 - > These kids are are 17, 18, 19, 20 years old. 1202 - > Yep, and they don't know what right looks like unless you show 1203 - > them. 1204 - > SPEAKER_02: Yep.
1205 - > SPEAKER_00: And and if you have the if you have the courage to 1206 - > do what you're supposed to do, and and to your point, make that 1207 - > correction, that is the standard. 1208 - > And it's really hard. 1209 - > And our and and yeah, most many leaders uh struggle with that. 1210 - > Yeah, absolutely struggle with that.
1211 - > And I wish they wouldn't. 1212 - > I wish they would feel more confident in the support that 1213 - > they're gonna get. 1214 - > Right? 1215 - > You're a junior leader, you're gonna get the support if you're 1216 - > making the right call.
1217 - > I'm not telling you, you know, don't punch the guy in the face, 1218 - > okay? 1219 - > Don't choke him out. 1220 - > Don't no. 1221 - > Make the correction.
1222 - > Yeah, make the correction and stand your ground and state your 1223 - > standard. 1224 - > Make the correction. 1225 - > SPEAKER_03: Today's show sponsor comes from 10th Mountain Whiskey 1226 - > and Spirit Company. 1227 - > They are a philanthropic award-winning craft distillery 1228 - > located in the heart of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado.
1229 - > And for being a listener of Tales of Leadership, you get 10% 1230 - > off on any order using the promo code Pando Commando when you 1231 - > place an order at 10th Whiskey.com. 1232 - > Both of those are in the show notes, so you'll be able to find 1233 - > them. 1234 - > 10th Mountain Whiskey's and Spirit Company, honors heroes, 1235 - > and they craft a legacy.
1236 - > I've commanded two organizations in the 10th Mountain, and both 1237 - > of which are very deeply impactful to me. 1238 - > This is a company that I stand behind. 1239 - > And if you're looking for a great bottle of bourbon, look no 1240 - > further at 10th Mountain Whiskey and Spirit Company. 1241 - > Back to the show.
1242 - > I'll never forget Colonel Ziesman. 1243 - > He was our brigade commander um for 2-2 infantry out of Fort 1244 - > Lewis. 1245 - > We just got back from a pretty hard deployment, and everyone's 1246 - > all ramped up, right? 1247 - > Like all ramped up from this deployment that we just got back 1248 - > from.
1249 - > So they're going into town, Seattle, and like all these 1250 - > areas, and they're they're getting a little too antsy in 1251 - > their pantsy, and they're getting in all these fights. 1252 - > And I remember he pulls out the brigade on this uh parade field, 1253 - > and this was the whole message. 1254 - > By the way, W Day WWE at the time was coming to wrestle. 1255 - > So there's John Cena in the background, and like all these 1256 - > people.
1257 - > He was doing this, so I can't confirm or deny that I actually 1258 - > saw him or not. 1259 - > Uh but uh he stands up there, he's like, guys, you guys just 1260 - > went to war and just crushed the enemy, and you're going into 1261 - > Seattle and you're getting beat up by a bunch of hippies with 1262 - > man buns. 1263 - > If you're getting a fight, you win that fight. 1264 - > Now, I'm not saying you need to go to Seattle and just fight 1265 - > everywhere, but if you're going to get into that fight, you will 1266 - > win.
1267 - > And I promise you, uh your consequences will not be as 1268 - > severe. 1269 - > SPEAKER_01: It's like that's great. 1270 - > SPEAKER_00: That's okay, great. 1271 - > SPEAKER_01: No, that's great.
1272 - > Absolutely. 1273 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I you know, I I I mostly kind of agree 1274 - > with that. 1275 - > That's great. 1276 - > Uh you know, that's exactly right.
1277 - > SPEAKER_03: So before we transition from this part of 1278 - > your time, I gotta ask you, tell me, uh, do you got any uh good 1279 - > stories on Chris Wheatley since he's a mutual connection that we 1280 - > both have? 1281 - > SPEAKER_00: Chris Wheatley, that son of a gun, man. 1282 - > This he's the most hard charger I ever met. 1283 - > The thing about Chris is uh, you know, so we spent a lot of years 1284 - > together.
1285 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 1286 - > SPEAKER_00: And I if you if I if you could if you could look up, 1287 - > if there was a picture and a definition in the in in uh you 1288 - > know the dictionary for immovable force, it'd be Chris 1289 - > Wheelie. 1290 - > He will not shake, he's got the best poker face in the fucking 1291 - > world, man. 1292 - > That guy.
1293 - > I mean, I swear, you never know what he's thinking. 1294 - > I don't know if if if you've ever been led by Chris Wheelie, 1295 - > I guarantee you know what I'm talking about because you never 1296 - > know what he's thinking, and he is literally that guy. 1297 - > And and that was always interesting to me because he was 1298 - > my commander, and he well, you know, back then, right, like as 1299 - > as a uh as students, uh and he he just never knew what he was 1300 - > thinking, and so I was always trying to figure out, you know, 1301 - > what am I supposed to do?
1302 - > Uh but you know, Chris, uh Chris and I we he I think he gave the 1303 - > nickname he gave me, well, I had a couple of nicknames, but uh he 1304 - > called me the enforcer because all he all he had to do was kind 1305 - > of look and then I would go enforce. 1306 - > Um but he you know he was that guy. 1307 - > He was a solid so from the moment I met him, the most 1308 - > stand-up, you know, solid individual that you just wanted 1309 - > to follow and respect. 1310 - > Yeah, and and again, that poker face.
1311 - > So I don't know, he ever tell you about his uh you know some 1312 - > of the the fights we had back then and his jaw getting broken. 1313 - > SPEAKER_04: No, he didn't tell me about it. 1314 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man. 1315 - > We uh we got into some riffrafs, and uh, you know, yay, uh I'm 1316 - > not calling you out, Chris, man.
1317 - > Uh but I I had your back, bro. 1318 - > I had your back. 1319 - > And unfortunately, you know, he had his jaw wired shut, and I 1320 - > ended up locking myself in, and you know, we me, G, and 1321 - > everybody like handling the business, if you will. 1322 - > But you know, Chris stood his ground.
1323 - > Didn't matter, didn't matter what was going on, what was at 1324 - > stake, he always stood his ground. 1325 - > Yeah, and that's that's what uh that's what made me really you 1326 - > know really enjoy being around Chris. 1327 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, I I um I served with him uh when I was in 1328 - > task force too at Fort Polk under um JRTC. 1329 - > And I I at the time I went to go be a company walker, which 1330 - > essentially means I was shadowing company commanders 1331 - > through these rotational exercises, but I never had 1332 - > company command.
1333 - > So I had like an imposter syndrome almost away, hey, I'm a 1334 - > captain, but I never been a company commander, and I would 1335 - > never tell them that until after the rotation, be like, oh 1336 - > surprise. 1337 - > I've never been a commander. 1338 - > Uh but I want to tell you how you could improve. 1339 - > SPEAKER_04: If you told me that shit, I'd be like, Yeah, yeah, 1340 - > exactly.
1341 - > You wouldn't listen. 1342 - > SPEAKER_03: So at the end, after I did the AR, I shook their hand 1343 - > by, hey, by the way, I've never been a commander yet, but thank 1344 - > you for all the lessons because I'm gonna implement them. 1345 - > Yeah, but he was so calm, cool, and collected, um, and was 1346 - > instrumental in kind of helping me push through that um imposter 1347 - > syndrome that I that I was feeling at the time. 1348 - > So if you're listening, Chris, you're you're awesome.
1349 - > Now go do push-ups. 1350 - > SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, go do push-ups, man. 1351 - > Or jump out of something, that's what you do, man. 1352 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1353 - > Kind of just out of respect to your time, because I feel like 1354 - > we can go all day. 1355 - > I kind of want to jump to when you're in flight school. 1356 - > Um, because this is where I think uh before right before 1357 - > that, you got diagnosed with with cancer. 1358 - > Um, and walk me through the mindset shift of where you 1359 - > realize that you couldn't go in it alone.
1360 - > SPEAKER_00: I struggled for a long time personally. 1361 - > So, first of all, surviving out of Chicago, even coming through 1362 - > Yale and Brian and St. 1363 - > John's and the crew, I still felt like it was still on me and 1364 - > me alone. 1365 - > Yeah, and so that was a mindset that I kept for a long time.
1366 - > And you know, when I got accepted to flight school, I 1367 - > said, I said, I said, fuck it. 1368 - > I'm gonna do it. 1369 - > I'm gonna do it, despite what's going on. 1370 - > And you know, it it it wasn't the best decision I ever made, 1371 - > you know.
1372 - > But to me, it was no one can defeat me. 1373 - > I had you know, and and and it was only me. 1374 - > But what I realized as this illness continued to destroy my 1375 - > body, yeah, I I needed to rely and lean on more and more 1376 - > people. 1377 - > Uh and it's it's kind of choking me up, man, because you know, 1378 - > that wasn't who I was at that time.
1379 - > Yeah. 1380 - > And it was a it was a huge shift in my mindset. 1381 - > Because I just I never I didn't grow up relying on anybody. 1382 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1383 - > SPEAKER_00: And I may have trusted people, but I still did 1384 - > the work myself. 1385 - > I didn't ask people for help. 1386 - > You know, I never actually said the the words never came out of 1387 - > my mouth ever. 1388 - > Will you help me?
1389 - > Yeah. 1390 - > Right? 1391 - > I never those words from from coming out of Chicago to you 1392 - > know, meeting your L to Nothing. 1393 - > I never said, will you help me?
1394 - > Uh and and so that experience it forced me to recognize that 1395 - > there are people that exist that want to help you. 1396 - > And I could, you know, I I could either I could either be 1397 - > defeated by this or I could say, okay, you know, it's time. 1398 - > This is this is not working anymore. 1399 - > Like you certainly cannot do this shit on your own.
1400 - > Yeah. 1401 - > And and it happened, man, and it did. 1402 - > And it and it wasn't a thing that just uh it wasn't like a um 1403 - > a gradual, it was like a flip of a switch, you know, and it just 1404 - > hit me. 1405 - > And it was at that point that I let everybody in on the news, 1406 - > and I told everybody, and I hadn't even I hadn't even told 1407 - > you L that I was sick, you know.
1408 - > I didn't want anybody to think anything. 1409 - > I was so secretive about my illness. 1410 - > Ultra, ultra secretive. 1411 - > It was it was like the most best kept top secret Q clearance 1412 - > fucking Sigma 15 shit you ever, you know, like ever.
1413 - > And I I don't know why, you know, I I don't know why I did 1414 - > that. 1415 - > I I I I look back now and I'm like, I don't know why I kept it 1416 - > a secret. 1417 - > I just felt that it was mine, it was mine alone, and no one 1418 - > else's, and I didn't want to ask anyone for help. 1419 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1420 - > SPEAKER_00: So, you know, once I uh crashed my car, yeah, trying 1421 - > to drive home from chemotherapy by myself. 1422 - > SPEAKER_03: Which is blows my mind, man. 1423 - > And and it also blows my mind that you were going through 1424 - > chemotherapy and flight school. 1425 - > So so that was a whole game.
1426 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so yeah, we were talking about flight 1427 - > school, yeah. 1428 - > So I so I I didn't so I thought so I was I was done. 1429 - > So I was when I went to flight school, I had my I had finished 1430 - > my first set of treatments for chemo. 1431 - > I was supposed to be in remission.
1432 - > And and it turns out that I wasn't. 1433 - > And it turns out that I had uh the the tumor was still there 1434 - > and it was still crushing my lung, and I was still operating 1435 - > at like 40%, but I was still I was still kicking those 1436 - > aviators' asses, man. 1437 - > I was smoking them. 1438 - > But I was in much better shape, you know.
1439 - > Uh and and I'll tell you what I did struggle. 1440 - > I struggled, I struggled like a motherfucker through Dunker. 1441 - > Like I could not swim. 1442 - > And I I was like drowning.
1443 - > SPEAKER_04: I don't know if you've ever been through Dunker, 1444 - > you know, where they you're in the hall, then uh you have to 1445 - > get out of the sea belts and stuff. 1446 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then you you know, and you gotta pass the 1447 - > big swim test and all that shit, you know. 1448 - > But man, I was not a good, you know, my lungs were not there 1449 - > for that, you know. 1450 - > So, but you know, like that was a struggle, man.
1451 - > It was a huge struggle. 1452 - > And and that that taught me the the the many lessons, but most 1453 - > of which was you know, people are there for you, and and 1454 - > again, they they're they're offering uh they're offering 1455 - > their support, and we're we are the ones saying no. 1456 - > So I learned yeah, I learned don't say no to myself, rather 1457 - > let other people say no to me, you know. 1458 - > Um, and and that was a big big shift, big mindset shift, big 1459 - > lifestyle shift for me, because I was not that guy, man.
1460 - > I did not ask anyone for help. 1461 - > I was not that person, uh, but I had to. 1462 - > SPEAKER_03: I think that's like the the powerful wisdom in this 1463 - > is as crazy as it is, um, and literally you almost dying um 1464 - > and going through flight school and crashing your car and having 1465 - > to go through uh the therapy again uh and having an exercise 1466 - > bike in your room. 1467 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I knew that was my therapy, man.
1468 - > That was my therapy. 1469 - > That's the only thing that kept me from wanting to hurt people, 1470 - > you know. 1471 - > SPEAKER_03: It blows my mind. 1472 - > Like, because I put myself in that position, I would um and 1473 - > and like you too.
1474 - > I grew up not relying on other people. 1475 - > Um, like, hey, if I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna figure 1476 - > this out. 1477 - > If I'm gonna go do this thing, I gotta figure this out. 1478 - > Um, and it slowly over time, and being married and having kids 1479 - > has helped me gravitate and ask for help.
1480 - > And I think that's one of the key lessons that I learned in 1481 - > leadership is that it's you're not expected to know all the 1482 - > right answers. 1483 - > Um, and the only way that you're gonna close the distance, 1484 - > especially with your team and relationship building, is to ask 1485 - > questions and be humble enough to open up to other people. 1486 - > Um, yours was a very extreme example, and I think your 1487 - > childhood that you had like just raised in like you were the 1488 - > person, um, you were taking care of your family, like you can't 1489 - > be weak.
1490 - > Um, you can't show weakness, and like I I felt the same way. 1491 - > Like, um, I can't get sick. 1492 - > I uh like I'm the breadwinner for my family. 1493 - > I definitely think that there's some correlations there, but 1494 - > dude, that's um that was such an intense story, and coming out of 1495 - > that on the back end, uh I think going through you know, going 1496 - > back to the the core for a portion of that, but starting 1497 - > your walk, what and I could I really think this is where the 1498 - > reflection in your book started to dig into.
1499 - > Walk me going through the I I can't remember, was it called 1500 - > the Ice Path or uh Yeah, the Ice Age, the Ice Age Trail. 1501 - > Yeah. 1502 - > SPEAKER_00: So I so the thing about the Ice Age Trail is it 1503 - > wasn't really a thing for me until I realized how lost I was. 1504 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1505 - > SPEAKER_00: I was really lost. 1506 - > I was lost up here. 1507 - > Um, once I had went to the academy and I went to OCS and I 1508 - > went to ranger school and I had this epic plan for my life, and 1509 - > everything was you know going so well. 1510 - > And all of a sudden everything's ripped from you.
1511 - > And and it's they literally just pulled the rug right out, just 1512 - > pull the rug, and you have no choice, right? 1513 - > You don't get to say, wait, wait, wait, hold on, don't pull 1514 - > the rug quite yet. 1515 - > No, they just fucking ripped the rug, you know. 1516 - > And I was lost, I was really lost, like unbelievably 1517 - > profoundly gone in terms of uh uh connecting with anyone, yeah, 1518 - > uh uh being motivated about doing anything, about uh you 1519 - > know, I I had I had I I was destroying any meaningful and 1520 - > purposeful relationships that I might have had, right?
1521 - > Because I was so upset. 1522 - > And so, you know, I I I I had thought to myself, I I need to, 1523 - > I was reading a book by Brace Barber. 1524 - > Um, it's called No Excuse Leadership. 1525 - > You ever read that book?
1526 - > No, I haven't great book, Josh. 1527 - > You should read that like tomorrow, man, or on your 1528 - > flight. 1529 - > It's a quick read. 1530 - > Quick read.
1531 - > And Brace Barber, No Excuse Leadership, shout out to him 1532 - > because fabulous book. 1533 - > But I was reading that book and it just and it just reinforced 1534 - > in my head like you need to. 1535 - > This is where I my I've developed my philosophy, like do 1536 - > something different. 1537 - > So I but I needed to, I needed to leave everybody and 1538 - > everything.
1539 - > I didn't want to be around anybody, I didn't want to be 1540 - > around nobody, I wanted nothing. 1541 - > So I thought, well, what what what made me feel good? 1542 - > And it kind of brought me back to my ranger school days. 1543 - > I was like, fuck, you know what?
1544 - > I I really enjoyed the mountains. 1545 - > I really enjoyed yeah, you know, it sucked, but I enjoyed that 1546 - > rucksack. 1547 - > Like I enjoyed being out there, you know, just putting the work 1548 - > in. 1549 - > Yeah, and I remember I remember, you know, any anybody that's 1550 - > gone through any sort of you know training, air, whatever, 1551 - > you get in your head, you know, whether it's rain school, 1552 - > whether it's airborne, whether it's aerosol, whether it's uh 1553 - > selection, you get in your head and and you get you get you get 1554 - > a lot of time to think.
1555 - > And I felt like I needed that, and so I developed this plan to 1556 - > leave. 1557 - > Uh, and I'm I I did that, right? 1558 - > So I I started this plan and I I said, okay, well, I'm gonna, you 1559 - > know, and I and I made it the way I made the way I uh 1560 - > rationalized it was the I spent a year prior to the the walk, I 1561 - > had spent six weeks inside in my stem cell transplant and all my 1562 - > operations and all that crap. 1563 - > So I said, you know, I'm a year away from that, I'm gonna spend 1564 - > six weeks outside, right?
1565 - > And uh, you know, I needed to put the past behind me, both 1566 - > figuratively and literally. 1567 - > Yeah, so I did that, and I planned this uh it's a 1568 - > thousand-mile uh hike across the state of Wisconsin, and I I was 1569 - > very meticulous, you know, in my planning, and I called all kinds 1570 - > of places all throughout Wisconsin and I said, hey, can I 1571 - > you know because I calculated my calories, how much intake would 1572 - > I need, and how much could I carry, you know, weight to 1573 - > calorie ratio became very important.
1574 - > SPEAKER_03: It's it's macadamia nuts and peanut butter. 1575 - > SPEAKER_00: Man, man, bro, uh a single macadamia nut is like 250 1576 - > calories. 1577 - > It's wild. 1578 - > Like if you get a legit macadamia nut from Hawaii, legit 1579 - > 250 calories, man.
1580 - > It's beautiful. 1581 - > That's crazy. 1582 - > So, you know, yeah, exactly, right? 1583 - > And so I did all that, man, and and I and I and I venture out uh 1584 - > and I I needed space.
1585 - > I I probably spent a total of 200, 300 miles, like not seeing 1586 - > a single person. 1587 - > It's therapeutic, just me. 1588 - > And that got that helped me get in my head. 1589 - > Like, I don't have my phone on me.
1590 - > I'm not scrolling stories and yeah, you know, shorts and all 1591 - > that shit, you know. 1592 - > None of that was happening, man. 1593 - > I was reading books, I was writing, that's when I first 1594 - > started writing my book. 1595 - > I was you know, just all of that, and and that's really when 1596 - > I figured out that I needed to leave and I needed to do 1597 - > something dramatic and different.
1598 - > And that's when I decided to put my name. 1599 - > So going back to the book, No Excuse Leadership, by Brace 1600 - > Barber, he founded a company called Orion Talent. 1601 - > Seriously, it's in the back of the if you find the original 1602 - > book in the back of that book, it says Orion Talent taking 1603 - > Rangers from the battlefield to the boardroom. 1604 - > That was swear to God.
1605 - > So I said, I said, fuck it. 1606 - > I'm gonna I'm gonna drop my resume and I'm gonna put my 1607 - > resume on Orion Town, and they fucking called me. 1608 - > SPEAKER_04: That's crazy. 1609 - > SPEAKER_00: They called me, man, and they brought me to Kansas 1610 - > City, and I interviewed, and and I got selected at the Kansas 1611 - > City National Security Campus, and and that's literally what 1612 - > sparked like kind of threw everything in motion, uh, 1613 - > because I listened to my soul, right?
1614 - > I I enabled myself to escape and do something different, uh, and 1615 - > that's what I needed to do personally. 1616 - > Maybe that's not for everybody, but that's what I had to do. 1617 - > And that experience man taught me a lot of lessons, but the the 1618 - > groundwork is really doing different, find grounding 1619 - > yourself, listening to your soul, and and and executing, 1620 - > right? 1621 - > You gotta go and and have a high-risk posture and go and do 1622 - > it.
1623 - > SPEAKER_03: You know, I you and I share that too. 1624 - > Um, I hike the Appalachian Trail, and that's why I gotta 1625 - > ask you why you chose not to do that because you're so close 1626 - > during Ranger School. 1627 - > There's just a level of like detailed, meticulous planning 1628 - > that goes into that, like having these stops every 60 miles, 1629 - > calculating what you need, what gear do you need during the 1630 - > times and seasons? 1631 - > Um, how are you gonna sleep?
1632 - > Maybe in the summer you want to do a hammock, and then when when 1633 - > it gets colder, you want to go into a tent and like all these 1634 - > things. 1635 - > But there was just a beauty about it. 1636 - > Like every spring break, and that's how I did it through 1637 - > college, I go hike the Appalachian Trail. 1638 - > But I didn't really understand the power of reflection uh until 1639 - > after I got my master's degree.
1640 - > I was I was still mentally um still mentally um burdened by a 1641 - > couple soldiers that I lost during my company command. 1642 - > It was just eating at me because you lose soldiers in combat, you 1643 - > can justify that to yourself. 1644 - > But when you lose soldiers in garrison to completely uh tragic 1645 - > accidents, you know, you eat at yourself like maybe I wasn't the 1646 - > leader that they needed. 1647 - > Uh and I I had a job and a blessing at the time, and that's 1648 - > why I think COVID for me was a blessing of where I teleworked, 1649 - > and I really started reading books on how to journal.
1650 - > Um, because I first started this, I was like, dude, this is 1651 - > like foo foo crap, it's not gonna help me. 1652 - > I started journaling, started asking the right questions, uh, 1653 - > and dude, it just started pouring out of me, like pouring 1654 - > out of me. 1655 - > And I remember sitting there crying like a little baby uh 1656 - > when when because I was going through all these things, and 1657 - > and it's a healing that a lot of people nowadays just don't fully 1658 - > understand.
1659 - > And to you to your point, um, you had a way more impactful 1660 - > story than I did. 1661 - > Uh, and being able to pull that out, finding that little cabin 1662 - > with the two rooms, starting to journal and your your ice bag 1663 - > again. 1664 - > SPEAKER_00: That was my space, man. 1665 - > That was my space.
1666 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's amazing, dude. 1667 - > SPEAKER_00: Um and that's that's but that's to your point, like 1668 - > that's what happens, right? 1669 - > You you have to allow it to happen, and you have to look for 1670 - > it, and and you have to let it happen. 1671 - > You know, uh, but you know, it's not going to realize unless you 1672 - > actually go out and do something dramatic.
1673 - > And I don't mean, you know, I don't mean take your life or or 1674 - > or or go shoot up a store. 1675 - > I mean, I mean go do something truly inspirational for 1676 - > yourself, find your soul. 1677 - > All right, like really, really get out there and have a talk 1678 - > with your soul. 1679 - > SPEAKER_03: I always line it like this because I'm I'm a 1680 - > visual guy and I'm an infantry officer.
1681 - > Um, so I like to keep it simple, stupid. 1682 - > I always uh joke that I'm one degree away from being a Marine. 1683 - > Um I I think I think of it as head, heart, hand alignment. 1684 - > Head.
1685 - > Can I see it? 1686 - > Do I understand it? 1687 - > Heart, is there emotional or intrinsic motivation that is is 1688 - > actually making me do this thing? 1689 - > Or am I just doing it because I have to?
1690 - > Because if I can align it and I can see it and I can feel it, 1691 - > then I'm just gonna naturally do the work. 1692 - > Um, and too too often nowadays, people are just going through 1693 - > the motions and they don't have that alignment. 1694 - > You have to create alignment in life. 1695 - > If you have purpose, uh passion plus purpose plus perspective, 1696 - > then you have precision.
1697 - > That's when you actually can go make a difference. 1698 - > Uh, and it really all the genesis of that journaling that 1699 - > I had was starting this podcast, sharing my story, so hopefully, 1700 - > people would not go down the same rabbit holes and mistakes 1701 - > that I had, and bringing people like you on that I call 1702 - > purposeful accountable leaders, people who have shared 1703 - > suffering, but they turned it for good, and they're making an 1704 - > impact in this world.
1705 - > That's exactly what you're doing, dude. 1706 - > SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that. 1707 - > And I completely agree with you, and that's what I so what you 1708 - > call head heart handle and I I to me I say does it make your 1709 - > make your heart sing? 1710 - > Yeah, right, because if if it if it makes your heart sing, then 1711 - > you you're there.
1712 - > You just have to listen. 1713 - > You have to listen. 1714 - > And we're not doing that. 1715 - > Uh, and everybody needs to.
1716 - > Doesn't matter what's going on in your life, take a moment, 1717 - > have an executive session with your soul, right, and and figure 1718 - > out what makes your heart sing. 1719 - > Because it's very different from the things that you might be 1720 - > passionate about. 1721 - > It's very different. 1722 - > And if you're not listening, it's gonna be a it's gonna be a 1723 - > tough fucking life, man.
1724 - > It's gonna be real tough. 1725 - > And especially if you have you know a family and and you got 1726 - > you got you know children, a partner, yeah. 1727 - > You have you doesn't you have you are the bedrock, both sides. 1728 - > It's your responsibility to figure out what makes your heart 1729 - > sing so you can make everyone else's heart sing.
1730 - > Yeah, that's your responsibility. 1731 - > That's my responsibility, Jason. 1732 - > SPEAKER_03: This is I bittersweet. 1733 - > Bittersweet is that this may be one of the last podcasts I get 1734 - > to record in like the next four months because Uncle Sam calls.
1735 - > Uh as he does. 1736 - > Yeah, I think this has been a phenomenal episode. 1737 - > So last question for you, brother, is how can our 1738 - > listeners connect with you and how can they contribute to your 1739 - > mission? 1740 - > Find your book, best way to connect with you.
1741 - > SPEAKER_00: Uh well, if you're in the Kansas City area, 1742 - > certainly just come out and see me. 1743 - > You can look me up online, any of my websites. 1744 - > I've got uh sharpleader.com, that's where my book is.
1745 - > Uh, we have learntosuffer.com, and then we also have our cigar 1746 - > lounge because we have a cigar lounge out here. 1747 - > Uh, and then you know, so if you're in the Kansas City area, 1748 - > I'm very reachable. 1749 - > Very reachable.
1750 - > Uh, my book is available on Amazon, it's also on Audible. 1751 - > It's called Eyes Wide Open, Learning to Suffer. 1752 - > So check it out. 1753 - > Uh, if you reach out to me first, I can get you a free 1754 - > copy.
1755 - > I'll ship every any of your listeners, I'll ship you a free 1756 - > copy. 1757 - > My team will handle it. 1758 - > Just let them let us know. 1759 - > Don't don't buy it on Amazon, don't don't buy it to the 1760 - > website.
1761 - > Just message us and we'll get you a copy, okay? 1762 - > Uh, because it's it's you know, especially if you're listening 1763 - > and you you really want to enjoy the book, we'll get you a copy. 1764 - > Um, but uh other than that, reach out anytime. 1765 - > Uh my all of my info is online.
1766 - > You can't miss me, and I would love to share a cigar with you 1767 - > uh at any point in time, especially if you're in the 1768 - > Kansas City area, please come out and play. 1769 - > I travel a lot to Chicago, Milwaukee area, and some other 1770 - > areas for some the other work that I do. 1771 - > Uh, so don't hesitate to reach out. 1772 - > Um I'd I'd certainly love to hear from any any of you that 1773 - > are listening.
1774 - > SPEAKER_03: Jason, it it's been a distinct pleasure, and I 1775 - > really mean that, man. 1776 - > Like uh going through um and I and I've definitely slowed down 1777 - > with podcasts of where I want to be way more intentional and 1778 - > actually read the book and get to know the people that I'm 1779 - > bringing on. 1780 - > Um and just hearing your story over the last week and getting 1781 - > connect with you. 1782 - > I feel that I am definitely going to be a better leader 1783 - > moving forward and some of the lessons that you've taught me.
1784 - > Thank you for everything you've done, continue to do, and just 1785 - > keep going, crushing life, man. 1786 - > SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you, Josh. 1787 - > I think this has been an equal exchange. 1788 - > I've learned a lot from you and I appreciate your uh your 1789 - > insights.
1790 - > I think you got a great thing going here. 1791 - > Really excited to uh continue to watch your other episodes. 1792 - > Um I've I've been I've been watching them and I've been 1793 - > sharing them with everybody. 1794 - > So fully uh fully grateful for what you're doing.
1795 - > Thank you for helping her, especially our upcoming leaders, 1796 - > you know, really get a good grasp on what right looks like. 1797 - > SPEAKER_03: I appreciate it, brother. 1798 - > Well, have a great night, and then if you're ever in DC, come 1799 - > hit me up. 1800 - > SPEAKER_00: I am in DC, so I'll definitely hit you up.
1801 - > All right, brother. 1802 - > All right, man. 1803 - > Take care. 1804 - > We'll see you.
1805 - > SPEAKER_03: All right, team. 1806 - > Time for our after action review. 1807 - > Phenomenal episode, and I'm I'm fully transparent. 1808 - > I could have probably continued to ask him questions and just 1809 - > had a conversation with Jason for the next probably two hours.
1810 - > Um, but I work at the Pentagon now, it takes me about an hour 1811 - > to commute back and forth, and I'm tired. 1812 - > So I try to cut it off in about uh an hour. 1813 - > So, what are the top three takeaways that I pulled from 1814 - > this episode? 1815 - > The first one is focus on the effort and not the outcome.
1816 - > This has been a repetitive theme that I've noticed. 1817 - > As a leader, you need to focus on the effort. 1818 - > And what does that mean? 1819 - > I think it means focusing on the processes and the systems and 1820 - > the people.
1821 - > Because the processes, the systems, and the people are the 1822 - > ones that drive the outcomes, the results that'll just 1823 - > naturally happen. 1824 - > And when you focus on the results or the end state, you 1825 - > are focused in the wrong area. 1826 - > If you really care about outcomes, you should be focused 1827 - > on processes and systems and people. 1828 - > The second key takeaway is leave your comfort zone.
1829 - > And Jason is a case study in this continuously pushing 1830 - > outside of his comfort zone. 1831 - > And what does that mean? 1832 - > We always say pushing outside of our comfort zone. 1833 - > Here's what it means to me.
1834 - > Every time we are given the opportunity to do something hard 1835 - > and push ourselves outside of the comfort zone, we are given a 1836 - > cognitive choice. 1837 - > Do we choose to stay in this complacent state because we're 1838 - > happy and we're content? 1839 - > Or do we choose to grow? 1840 - > Uh and as Jason talks about this, there's sliding doors or 1841 - > opportunities that are open to you in life.
1842 - > Leaving and embracing discomfort is the fastest way to grow 1843 - > rapidly. 1844 - > Think of this as an S curve. 1845 - > I've mentioned this several times. 1846 - > But when we first start something, we immediately 1847 - > encounter resistance.
1848 - > That's an exponential climb. 1849 - > But once we start doing something, the discomfort that 1850 - > we had gains momentum and we begin to grow. 1851 - > And then eventually we'll plateau again. 1852 - > And we have to make that cognitive choice.
1853 - > Do we continue to push ourselves outside of our comfort zone? 1854 - > And I'm going to just tell you a cold truth. 1855 - > Life is full of discomfort. 1856 - > It doesn't matter how much you try to avoid it by being 1857 - > complacent, uh, it will find you.
1858 - > So figure out a way to embrace it and learn to take those 1859 - > opportunities because that is how we grow. 1860 - > And then the last one that I had was find gratitude and 1861 - > suffering. 1862 - > So Jason and I share this. 1863 - > There's a lot of uh stories that I've reflected on in my life 1864 - > that are pain points for me.
1865 - > Why are they pain points? 1866 - > Because I lost loved ones, I've lost soldiers, um, I've just had 1867 - > horrible experiences. 1868 - > Uh, I've lost unequivocally those things that just happen, 1869 - > um, tragic life events, right? 1870 - > But then I began to change how I think about those events, and 1871 - > how I did that was through quiet reflection.
1872 - > And when I began to reflect on those experiences, I started 1873 - > asking the question is what am I grateful for in this moment? 1874 - > And it's a crazy thing to think of if it's a foreign concept to 1875 - > you. 1876 - > Like if you lose a loved one, what are you grateful for? 1877 - > I don't know.
1878 - > Maybe all the memories that you had with that person, or maybe 1879 - > you were the right person at the right time within an 1880 - > organization to get people through those tragic events. 1881 - > There's always something, but if you always hunt the bad stuff, 1882 - > you're never going to be grateful. 1883 - > And in order to be a pal, right, a purposeful, accountable 1884 - > leader, you have to find gratitude. 1885 - > That's just something you need to do.
1886 - > And you do that through quiet reflection. 1887 - > All right, team, do me a favor. 1888 - > As always, I sincerely, sincerely mean this. 1889 - > If you find value in this episode and other episodes, help 1890 - > me share and spread the word.
1891 - > Make sure you like, share, and subscribe this podcast wherever 1892 - > you listen. 1893 - > Leave a review, send me feedback. 1894 - > I absolutely love to hear that. 1895 - > The fastest way to do that is go to Buzz Sprout or go to 1896 - > McMillian Leadership Coaching, which is my current website.
1897 - > And I caveat by uh I am currently under the process of 1898 - > revamping my website to make it way more streamlined to where 1899 - > you can actually interact with me uh much easier. 1900 - > Follow me on social media, it's at uh Tells of Leadership. 1901 - > You can find me everywhere. 1902 - > And if you want to support the show, you can become a show 1903 - > sponsor.
1904 - > Reach out uh if it's something that I would value in terms of a 1905 - > product that I would genuinely use. 1906 - > Uh always reach out. 1907 - > I'm always open to those. 1908 - > And you can also visit tells of leadership.
buzzsprout.com and 1909 - > just support or donate the show. 1910 - > And I promise you, everything that I make, I am putting it 1911 - > back into this podcast 100% uh to continue to grow. 1912 - > Because trust me, running a podcast and being an active duty 1913 - > army officer is a challenge uh in mindset.
1914 - > But as always, team, uh, I am your host, Josh McMillian, 1915 - > reminding you every day is a gift. 1916 - > Don't waste yours. 1917 - > I'll see you next time.
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