Aesopians E8 - How SaaS Are Maintaining Brand Integrity & Operationalizing Growth Ft. Mohamed Hamad

Speaker A: Welcome to the Aesopiens podcast, where the wisest in the channel come to get their MSP sales and marketing insights. I'm, um, Hunter Nelson with Tortoise and Hare Software, and today we're featuring a special guest who's actually a little bit outside of the MSP channel, but I think is still an interesting guest and it's a fun episode. And it's Mohammed Hamad with Third Wonder. Uh, so let's hop right into the episode and hear a little bit more about what he has to say. All right. Welcome to another episode of the Aesopians Podcast. I'm here with Mohammed Hamid. Did I say that right? Uh, Third, uh, Wonder Agency, and y' all are based in Montreal, Canada. Um, so I won't kind of drain the slide here, so to speak. Uh, so why don't you tell. I'll turn it over to you. Uh, why don't you tell us who you are and what you do.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, uh, thanks for the introduction and thanks for having me, Hunter. It's really exciting to be in this podcast. Uh, so, yeah, as you said, my name is Mohamed Hamad. I am founder of Third Wonder Marketing, which is in, uh, full service digital marketing agency based out of Montreal, Canada. Um, we've been around for about 10 years and uh, while we've worked with the gamut of every type of company and business in the industry, um, in the last few years we've been focusing primarily on, um, SaaS and startup, um, with a good chunk of our clients also in the philanthropic space, which doesn't naturally feel like it's connected to those, uh, to that, to those verticals. But, uh, they have a lot in common in a lot, uh, in a lot of ways.

Speaker A: Okay, yeah, interesting. Yeah, I saw you were doing some more in that space. Um, and just for, you know, the listeners benefit and kind of some background, we had originally worked together at a SaaS company that was in Canada, you know, a few years back. And you, uh, were the primary web developer and site maintainer at that company. And then I was doing some SEO strategy work for them. Um, so that's how we kind of originally connected. And um, I don't remember specifically when that was. I think it was, uh, roughly in the pandemic.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was, uh, I started working, uh, with that company right from the jump. So it was right in 2020. Uh, we started working with them. Um, they were bootstrapping and uh, setting up the foundation of the business itself and they needed someone to help out with the. Their, Their web presence. So Working with their um, uh, their marketing, the director of marketing at the time. Um, and uh, we built out their website, helped out with their content, um, worked with their uh, you know, helped out with their social media and all of that, setting up HubSpot and a few other bits and pieces and then over time just evolving the website in itself. And uh, at some point that's when you came in, I think. I believe it was like maybe 20, 20, 22 maybe.

Speaker A: Yeah, sometime in that kind of post. Pandemic wake. Um, yeah.

Speaker B: And uh, yeah, we collaborated a little bit on uh, optimizing the website for SEO and there was a lot of fun work there. But um, the company evolved and they got a Series B I think at the time. So they expanded their team and um, I trained the team a little bit in terms of what they need do and how they worked with the website and their strategy and all of that. And uh, you know, sometimes uh, the clients, they grow and they take everything in house.

Speaker A: Yeah, it happens. Um, but uh, yeah, you know, we've, we worked at the, you know, company originally and have kind of kept in touch over the years on LinkedIn and Stuff. And um, you know, I remember the website that y' all had built had kind of taken a little bit more of a advanced custom fields sort of approach and a little bit more of a manually built sort of website, um, which is a little different than what I see, you know, in my day to day. Uh, I'm typically working with like page builder websites. Um, so um, you know, I thought that was interesting because um, I just don't run across a lot more as many of the, you know, websites that take a little bit more granularly controlled, uh, you know, approach with ACF and kind of a page builder list style, uh, website build on WordPress. So I'm curious, is that how you kind of approach all of uh, your WordPress websites? Do you have any thoughts on what the pros and cons are of going with that approach versus you know, a page builder style site? Um, can you comment on anything there?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And um, that's an interesting question because it's a very philosophical question, especially when you're working with brand managers and um, organizations that grow really rapidly where there's a lot of people touching the website and moving things around. Um, one of the things that we like, the reason we use uh, advanced custom fields and have very rigid structures. Um, and obviously the theme, uh, which we call wonder theme, um, is the foundation of all the websites that we build. And that is because um, page builders are too flexible sometimes when you want to have a very strong, uh, holistic brand on your website and what that leads to. While the original intention of a website, usually built by the original designer or the original brand manager in the company, um, has strong brand guidelines, they go through the exact, the exercise uh, of designing, um, and the aesthetics and the communications people come and go, people's aesthetics change. Um, uh, you have different teams and everybody has their little essence to it. And what happens there is that over a couple of years you'll start to see where things have deviated. You'll see almost like the rings in uh, the tree thing of who came in and when they left and someone else took over by being a little bit more structured and saying, look, these are the components that you have. This is the design language that you have. Um, and this is what was set out from the get go as the foundation of the website. Anybody who comes in that's running the site is a little constrained, but uh, is focused on the structure and focused on the content itself instead of manipulating pixels here and maybe playing around with the transition. I like fades versus slides, uh, for this thing, but all the transitions on the rest of the sides are fades. Ah, you, you're like, why is this page a little different from everything else? You know what I mean? Um, so it keeps people focused, it keeps people structured. Um, uh, keeps people, uh, it gives them the, the, the autonomy. Not the autonomy but let's say the, the freedom to only focus on the content and the message that they want to have as opposed to being a designer when they're not. Right. Um, so that's more of the philosophical side of like why we structured that way. And brand managers love it because they're like, they have the confidence that nobody's going to go and deviate, nobody's going to come in. And when they decide that they like fuchsia as a color and like try to throw that everywhere or you know, um, you know, so that's uh, that's one thing, it does become very limiting and that's by choice. But then when we do have brand refreshes, um, those now are points of discussion that then we can have and talk to our clients and say, okay, what is working for you and what isn't and how can we make it better? And then because of their usage of the site and what they want to express, it ceases to become about features or you know, I saw this somewhere else. It's more like what are you trying to communicate with this, this Layout or this design or this esthetic that you want to come in. And then you can bring a designer, a developer, a brand manager and the content people together in the room and have that conversation and make it better overall in a more, in a very holistic space.

Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah, and that uh, makes sense you know because uh, like the SaaS space is just a completely uh, different ball game than the M space in that you know a lot of those companies get uh, funded and then they want to grow extremely fast and it's all breakneck pace, people are coming in and out. Uh, so you know brand continuity and brand integrity are uh, you know higher or concerns that you know I, I typically just don't face. You know the, the MSP space is kind of bootstrapped and um, you know slow moving, three year contracts, all that stuff. So um, and is also you know just a lot lower spend, lower scale, things like that. So a lot of them are just trying to get a critical mass of content and things like that and need um, to do a lot with a little um. So that's interesting. You know I haven't uh, heard those kind of concerns cited before. Uh, a lot of times when people talk about an ACF versus page builder style approach it's more of a technical objection to the slowness and sluggishness of page builders and you know um, uh how ACF and you know more lean approaches like the technically, you know sound choice rather than more of a mark but you're really citing more of a branding, marketing and kind of uh, org structure related concerns rather than the technical one. So you know that's interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, it was born out of the fact that you know as I've worked with hundreds of businesses and um, while I come from a design background I'm a developer as well and I've worked in like I run a marketing agency, worked with marketing teams all over. Um, you know if you get people to focus on the thing they do best then you have much better outcomes. So if you're, if you're taking away the, any of um, the friction to creation, um, that makes it better. So if you have someone who's, let's say a copywriter that needs to publish something on the website and goes there and there's too many options and too many bells and whistles and I just want to publish this, um, if you make that easy for them then they can focus on the content and not have to have that learning curve of uh, learning a new tool and a page builder mess around with Paddings and hover colors and all of that. And if you're a designer, then work with your developer to really get your design to shine and then create a design system in a language that you can also take elsewhere with you. So it's all about scalability at the end of the day, getting people to focus on what they really want to what they're best at and, um, get people talking with each other.

Speaker A: Okay. All right, well, cool. Um, when we first worked together, I do feel like maybe your agency was maybe more web development focused, um, than it is now today. And, uh, then it also seems like maybe you've added a little bit more focus on CRM stuff and maybe gotten into the nonprofit, uh, vertical, I guess. Tell us a little bit about how the agency has evolved over the past five years. Is my assessment correct there or, um, what's been going on lately?

Speaker B: Um, we've always been a full service agency going from strategy to design development and, uh, execution of digital strategy mandates. So content creation, email marketing, and all of that. Um, it just so happens that the most tangible thing that you can show in a case study is you usually a website because people can look at it and go visit. You know, um, strategy side, um, you know, we work with agents, we work with our clients to one, uh, understand, uh, their target market, do their due diligence on who their competition is, um, create their Personas, um, create their brand messaging and from a visual standpoint, as well as a, uh, communication stand on how to talk to your audience and different channels, um, different mediums, how to keep the same tone, uh, keep. Change your tone depending on the medium while staying true to the voice of the organization and the message of what they're trying to do. Um, in saying that a website is the foundation of your digital presence online, uh, that's the first touch point. When someone hears about you, they're like, okay, what's your web? What's your, you know, what's your website? Um, so they go straight to the URL. There's obviously social media, email marketing, um, your search, uh, side of things, ads, um, but they all coalesce into the one page or the one site. In the last couple years, um, we've leaned in a little bit more on HubSpot. So we're a HubSpot solution provider, um, and we help organizations, um, leverage that. Uh, in the last 10 years that I've been running the agency, I've tried every CRM under the sun. Um, um, they all promise a lot, they do a lot, and not to say that HubSpot is the most perfect one out there because there's no such thing as a perfect CRM. But um, from a marketing and sales standpoint it, it has a very unique um, sweet spot especially for creative marketing because it really brings in that inbound, outbound, sales, social media, email, all of that in one place and if you really work it well it can really sing. Um, and it's the easiest one to configure out of like out of the big ones. Um, you know you've got Salesforce which is. I won't even get there. Uh, yeah, that one's pretty complex. Yeah. And then there's like the smaller bootstrappy ones for scrappy companies like Copper and Insightly and pipedrive, uh, which is for sales focus. But nothing really brings all the key components that you want uh, as much as I found that HubSpot does.

Speaker A: Sure, yeah. I've tried um, Mailchimp which is not even a CRM Pipedrive. I'm on active campaign now. I've done a little work with HubSpot. Um, I used to be a little bit of a HubSpot detractor um, because of the cost. Um, but they've really brought the cost down a lot especially for like you know first couple years with like discount programs and things like that. Um and then you kind of couple that with you know uh, the expense of some of the other, you know what I would say, second tier or third tier service CRMs, kind of raising their prices. Um, HubSpot's definitely become a much more uh, competitive option due to its ability to you know, really integrate like you said, inbound, outbound and um, you know ah, service and you know, all the modules for a much more affordable price than it to used used to be.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, their pricing has changed a lot, their offerings has changed a lot. They're really baked in a lot of um, a lot of the tools that you would have needed, uh, third party collaborations, uh, or integrations with uh, they brought them in house. Um, it's funny because you know each time they uh, create new features or new tools. Obviously if you have a specialized tool it's going to be a lot better than an add on tool in a bigger system. But it's really the, it's the sum of all parts as opposed to looking at the individual thing. Right. So for instance you know mailchimp could have a lot better features in terms of, let's say if you focus only on email, um, but if you want email connected to campaigns that um, connect to social and your CRM and have automations with the landing pages and all of that. That becomes a different story because now you've got a web of systems that is at the core of your client. Um, and that in itself, the sum of all those parts is much greater than having like every bell and whistle when it comes to enip kind of thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think the main value that I see is, is kind of the, the attribution and like you said you can you get a, ah, really good, good visibility across like how people are coming into your company and um, you know, their funnels and journeys and things like that. Um, you know, so that's great. Um, are you doing any, you know, marketing automation or kind of email marketing for your clients? Um, I'm assuming you would be with some HubSpot stuff going on.

Speaker B: Yeah, workflow automation and email automation. That's always the fun part of things. And uh, with each client, depending on the type of thing that they want, um, who they're going after, what are the campaigns they do? Um, uh, that's always an interesting uh, thing. And that's where having a strong digital strategy comes along. Like what is it that you're trying to do? How are you going to try it? How do you want to connect with the audience, reach out to them, understand them, what touch points mean more than others? Um, so that due diligence in the beginning leads to an easier implementation of uh, let's say your marketing systems like HubSpot and creating those workflows. M. Yeah, okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, interesting. Um, yeah, I think uh, you know, as my agency has uh, kind of grown, um, you know, I spent like the first five years of my agency thinking about nothing but lead gen. How do I generate more leads, how do I generate more leads, you know, things like that. Um, over these past, you know, year or two, um, I've really gotten to the point where like you know, leads are coming in and I'm thinking a lot more about how do I continue to follow up with people. Um, and just been just overall shifted a lot towards a stronger focus on email marketing. And you know, that's kind of opened my eyes to some of my customers, uh, you know, and their tendency to maybe like discard leads, um, that don't close immediately and um, maybe not using marketing automation and you know, lead nurture via email marketing to the extent that they should be. So that's kind of one of the areas that I'm focusing on is like how to help clients and things like that. You know, out with that more and then how do I also do a better job with that? You know, in my agency, um, I tend to kind of like use the agency as the lab before bringing like, you know, services to clients in the market. Um, so I guess, you know, could you speak a little bit to uh, the value of marketing automation and lead, nurture and keeping up with your base of contacts and maybe what you're doing there and uh, how you're supporting your customers?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Marketing automation, uh, for m. A lot of people sounds like a silver bullet that's going to solve everything. Um, but really it's, it's a constant refinement process of uh, what is it that your team is doing repetitively, um, in a consistent way that maybe you can get something else to take that off your plate. Because we get busy, we have lives, things come up, holidays, um, emergencies, uh, people taking sabbaticals, it's all sorts of things. And there's too many variables in people's lives. But things need to um, be structured in a cadence to make sure that one, your team, sorry, your clients feel, um, that they're taken care of, they're reminded about things. Um, there's a sense of clarity and structure that's coming from you as an organization as, or as an agency. And um, if you're not leveraging these automations, then the onus is on you to always be on top of everything, all the time. And that becomes um, one, very prohibitive and two, very costly, um, from a monetary standard because if you're, if you forget something or you just don't take that note down or you know, um, relying on your memories is an awful thing. Take your memory, put it in a machine. That's why we build computers, so you can take the stuff off our plate. Um, that's where the automation part comes in. But what is it you want to automate it and what brings value? It depends. For instance, if you're SaaS, um, there's certain automations for, let's say booking a demo or um, reminders to renew or upselling, um, all these types of automations depending on usage or uh, touch points or how many times you log in or how many times you don't log in, those types of things. Um, on the philanthropic space it's how do you work with grantees and grantors and funding and reminders about annual general meetings and conferences. Um, you know, there isn't really an absolute monetary space, a monetary outcome, but there is more of a communication standpoint of making sure people know about Things in advance. Um, uh, keep the touch points alive, um, reminding people of certain key milestones and events, keep the board active, uh, the committees, they have your grantees, uh, um, certain financial milestones that need to be out there. So it's very communications heavy versus the other side, which is conversion and monetary heavy.

Speaker A: Okay, um, let's talk about it more from like a lead nurture standpoint. Uh, so let's say uh, do you, are you in favor of newsletters? Do you have like, kind of, you know, newsletters, uh, what's, what sort of cadences do you see that work? You know, what's the frequency basis that you think is most effective from like a lead nurture standpoint? Any insight there?

Speaker B: Um, again, different industries have different um, cadences with emails and email newsletters, um, if you have very engaged and it's a high touch point at a function, um, what you call it, product, um, a little bit more newsletters doesn't really help. Sorry. It does help a lot. Um, as people are excited to read about what's the new feature or what can I do with this new shiny tool that I got or give me ideas kind of thing. Um, but when things are a little drier or let's say someone's already in the funnels, already been using the tool for maybe six months to a year and all of that, you don't necessarily need to have that many touch points or that many email messages out there. They're going to get email fatigue. Email is a very personal space. Right. Um, we got everything from work to daycare messages, to announcements, uh, about taxes and elections to bills, Everything comes through on our email. And it's almost become like a full time job to just parse through your email to the point now where we're creating AI tools to get rid of the fluff in email. So being conscious of that, um, and being respectful of the space that you're in when it comes to email is top of mind there. And that's the greatest challenge with email. So most people kind of come into and say yeah, email, we're going to have like a monthly newsletter and another thing every two weeks and like sequence of three, four things that go every other day or whatever it is. But you have to look at it in the aggregate like are you harassing someone by all of these emails or are you being useful? You know, um, so that's, that's the, um, uh, that's the art and science of email, uh, marketing there.

Speaker A: Sure, yeah. Uh, you know, kind of the approach I've been working on right now is like a monthly newsletter. And then I'm kind of like trying to increase that to more like a weekly, you know, email thing. And then I'm also trying to see if I can roll out, you know, uh, cadences that are contextual to the original touch point. You know, like if it's a lead magnet, do I do like a six to eight email sequence, uh, for the lead magnet before putting them on the newsletter? Do I let the lead magnet cadence run at the same time they're on the, you know, newsletter? Um, you know, blast, um, you know, do I have a catch all kind of subscriber onboarding that runs before they hit the newsletter and in between the k, the lead magnet cadence, some things like that. So, um, you know, that's what I'm, you know, really thinking about right now and trying to work on. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on um, uh, structuring that sort of like, um, you know, uh, those cadences or any optimal mixes there.

Speaker B: Um, I would say just make sure that there is an exit clause in your email sequences that if someone doesn't open an email once, twice, thrice, then the rest of the sequence gets stopped just because, um, if they're really not engaged and there's no point in just blasting and at some point they're just going to select all and get rid of it or just unsubscribe. And you don't want them to unsubscribe. Right. Um, you want to keep there for them as long as possible. Um, there have been some really interesting plays that LinkedIn has been doing with LinkedIn newsletters and it's another way to send them newsletter information without it coming directly from you, but from you, while maintaining them as a newsletter subscriber in your main email list, but having a different cadence somewhere else, um, coming from a different banner, you're still sending communication to them. But if they unsubscribe from, let's say, or stop following your newsletter over there, it doesn't hurt your overall marketing that you want to hold uh, on to um, as much as possible. And that's the sacrosanct area. There's ways of sending them something, um, through a different channel almost in the same type of content structure, but having sort of like an arm's length, uh, approach, um, to communication there.

Speaker A: Okay, interesting. Um, you mentioned AI earlier. Are you kind of using AI to uh, roll out any of these, you know, sequences or newsletters or incorporating, incorporating them into any of your, you know, HubSpot workflows or anything like that, or, um, you know, I guess. How are you, how are you leveraging AI? Um, in 2025?

Speaker B: I'm a big proponent of AI. I really love how it's an empowerment tool. It allows you to do so much more. Um, I try not to use it to write everything because that's the, that's the promise of AI that is going to write the things for you. What I like to do with AI is, uh, have it, um, be more of a advisor or a reviewer. So what we do is we create custom GPTs that are trained to be a specific hat or to have a very specific lens on something. And whenever we give it, uh, a piece of content that we wrote, maybe look at it and check it against our brand guidelines. So we're using this right tone and we're using the right messages or the key phrases that we want to have. Um, use the right words. In some industries, there's some words that mean something else, so we're not allowed to use those words. So it's, it's more of like a check and a checks and balances tool. Okay. Um, for instance, um, if we have a large keyword research where we have a huge spreadsheet full of keywords that we want to target for different types of, uh, services, it's really hard to always reference that big giant document. But if you train a custom GPT to say, hey, anything I give you, um, check it against the keywords that we have in specific verticals and give me suggestions on how I can improve it or add extra keywords or maybe change some phrasing so that it hits those, uh, long tail keywords. And then copywriters, although they understand what they need to do, sometimes the flow comes in and they write something really solid and then the keyword density is not as much there, or they're just not hitting the mark, there's always some of a fallback. They have the freedom to be able to focus on the craft, focus on the writing, focus on what really is human, and then have the AI come in and say, okay, maybe tweak this one a little bit. Maybe this, this meta description feels a little bit better. Um, or these are some options for call to actions, you know what I mean? Um, so these are the types of ways that we've been using AI to help us, um, expand what we do, but have us be focused on what we do best. And then it's just a little bit of an extra eye on things that, uh, because they're much better at patterns than we are.

Speaker A: Okay. Like, ah, a QA layer, maybe like a decision support layer and then a little bit of ideation in there.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Um, things like check this against our ideal customer profile. Do you think that we can be stronger in messaging? Or this would be something that um, uh, that would resonate with this character profile and like, okay, well you know, this messaging could be like this or maybe you could be stronger in that you're like, yeah, you know, usually four out of, you know, three out of five suggestions are good and then the other two are like, yeah, no, that doesn't work. But there's, there's a couple of improvements that you can work with there.

Speaker A: Okay, awesome. Well, uh, what is the uh, forward looking year two here, uh, look like for third Wonder? You know, what's on the horizon? Any, any ways you're kind of adjusting the uh, agency direction or anything like that? Or mostly, uh, just kind of double down and execute and keep getting better?

Speaker B: Um, well, you're always doubling down, trying to make things better. One thing that we are exploring is how we can roll out some of these custom GPTs that we've created that have helped us so much do a lot of things internally. Um, so we're piloting a couple of versions of our GPTs for people. Um, they're free to use. Um, and um, it depends on what is it that you're trying to do. So we've got one that helps us write standard operating procedures that we've been using internally to help our team. Um, just be able to have a lot of good documentation. Because one of the key things about running an agency is, um, everything's stuck in our heads all the time, right? And when someone is on vacation or is sick or whatever it is, and that one person is the one that knows how to do something, you're like, oof, you're stuck, you're scrambling. So how do you get as much of that knowledge out of your head in a structured format that's easy for people to in the team find? Um, we created something called Wonder sop. You just give it a couple of lines of what is it that you want to do, um, or what you're trying to document in terms, it could be very simple, um, and expands it out and gives it a very standard uh, structure and we have it as part of our knowledge base and it has really helped us out a lot. So now when I want to take it a vacation as the business owner, um, I'm pretty much the single source of the organization. I know this is like, how do I do this? Just check documentation. It's all there. I took everything out of my head and gave it to you guys. And now. Yes.

Speaker A: Okay. I heard about an interesting product on a podcast the other day. Um, and I think it's like a tool that uh, maybe merges like Selenium and AI and things like that. Basically all you have to do is open up your window or your computer, your browser window or whatever it is and walk through whatever it is you're going to do on the screen and then AI will capture that and then document a sop for you. Um, it's similar to what you just described but also could be supplemental. You know what you're doing. Because I think it will capture screenshots and you know, generate because you know I've thought about kind of in tinkered with like some of the process stuff with AI too. But the thing is like it's. Since it's only text based, I think the screenshot capture sounded the most intriguing part of that product. Um, because you have to go and add that stuff in manually and you know, snipping out the screenshot, copy paste, all that stuff gets little tedious after a while. But yeah, so yeah, I don't remember what the product name is, but uh, it's out there.

Speaker B: There's a few of them out there. We used something called Scribe or Scribe how, um, and that one does that where it, you know, it records all the clicks and it creates a, either a slideshow of all of the steps or creates a video out of it. Um, we use another tool called Komodo Dex which does that with video and slide guides. Um, so that's a twofer. Um, we use those for client facing documentation. If we want to be um, multifaceted in the way we want to um, train uh, our clients. Some learn better with video, some want step by step. Okay, I click here. This is exactly what I'm doing. And some are really good at just like, just tell me what to do. Nice. Text based, uh, um, what you call instructions work really well being multidimensional and multimodal in our instructions with our clients. Um, just so that we are as inclusive as possible. Um, that's what we use for that. But at the core of it, um, before we record that internally, um, having our own instructions, um, usually we try to keep the text based because user interfaces change and they change very often and that becomes very difficult to update. If you've ever worked with Facebook Business Manager or Google Analytics every six months. You're like, where am I? What is this? What's happening? Where'd that button go? It was right there just last week. But the fundamental of what you're supposed to be doing stays. Stays the same. Um, gotcha.

Speaker A: Gotcha.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay, well, is there anything I didn't ask you that you'd like to, uh, share with the audience here?

Speaker B: Um, off the top of my head, no. I think, uh, when it comes to marketing in general, we're coming through a very interesting shift in flux in the industry. Uh, lots of, uh, platforms are changing, um, from social media, changing in its outlook, its policies, its privacy structures. We've got. AI is kind of disrupting things. Um, um, but at the end of the day, digital marketing really is all about, um, communicating with your audience and your brand, what your values are, what your expression is, what your vision is. And, um, kind of focusing on that is the key part, because that's the fashion versus the trend. M. Fashion is more timeless. The trend is seasonal. These are seasonal changes. But make sure that you're fashion.

Speaker A: Sure. Okay. All right, well, thank you again for coming on the podcast. Uh, once again, Mohamed Hamad with, uh, Third Wonder Agency. Um, it has been a pleasure and we'll make sure to get Your website and LinkedIn profile and all that good stuff in the show notes and hopefully, uh, to get you on in, uh, a future episode.

Speaker B: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun.

Speaker A: Okay, great. I'm going to video edit cut there. Um, but we're pretty much done. Uh, I've been keeping an eye on time, make sure you didn't break your hard stop at two and all that stuff.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you so much.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: what do you think? Everything went well.

Speaker A: Yeah, I thought it was a good episode. I think the, uh, marketing automation discussion was fun. Um, I think it'll, you know, make you look good, make you look like an expert, and hopefully, you know, can, um, be a good way to help some people discover the agency. Um, you know, I'll do some podcast clips and things like that on social media. Um, you know, tag you on all that stuff. Um, and then I usually create, like a blog show notes, so backlink from tortoiseandhairsoftware.com and all that good stuff. So, yeah.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And, yeah, I mean, uh, also, if you want to be on the webinar kind of thing, talking about MSP marketing and three shifts that MSPs should think about to improve their marketing, I think that would be also a great episode. If you're up for it.

Speaker A: Okay, yeah, sure. Just let me know whenever you have a slot or whatever, or whenever you need a guest.

Speaker B: Awesome. Okay, man. Well, this was, uh, this was great. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Sure.

Speaker A: All right, well, have, uh, a good weekend, and, uh, I'll chat with you later on LinkedIn and such.

Speaker B: Awesome. Cheers, man.

Speaker A: All right, bye. Mohammed's a great guy and a pleasure to work with, and he's built a nice little agency up there in the Montreal area. And, uh, if you're in the Montreal area or in Canada or in the Sass or nonprofit space, uh, definitely reach out to Muhammad at, uh, Third Wonder and see what they can do to help you out. Uh, we'll definitely get his LinkedIn profile and website and everything linked in the show notes, so you can check, uh, that out. Um, if you did, like the episode, be sure to, like, subscribe. Follow all that good stuff. And once again, I'm Hunter Nelson with Tortoise and Hare software, and thanks for watching Sam M.