From the moshpit to the marketing plan | What a decade in the music business taught Jason Miller about attention in B2B

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Trust and influence in B2B podcast. I'm your host, Joel Harrison. Now, here's an uncomfortable truth about a lot of B2B marketing. It plays at background volume, polite, inoffensive, easy to talk over. Uh, rock and roll, meanwhile, has never had that problem. It walks in a loud way and it makes you look up or look on. My guest today has built his reputation by refusing to do that. He came into B2B after a decade of the music industry, and he brought something with him into that category, the category really needed, which is a conviction that marketing is a creative craft. The brand should publish like publishers, and the work only travels when it has a genuine point of view and some personality behind it. This is a conversation about where that belief came from, what a career in content marketing has taught him about actually earning an audience's attention, and why the safe, by the numbers approach that so many marketers and brands default to is the riskiest choice of all. Along the way, we follow the through line that runs from the photo pit to the marketing plan. The things that make a live show unforgettable turn out to be the same things that make a brand worth paying attention to. My guest is Jason Miller. He's led content and marketing at some of the most recognizable names in the business, including LinkedIn marketing, an activecampaign here at a best selling. Welcome to the funnel. Uh, biography. Um, before that, he spent a decade in the music industry, and he's never put the camera down by night. He's an acclaimed rock and roll photographer who shot everyone from Metallica to Motley Crue and a lot of other people, by the way, who aren't just heavy metal or rock as well. And he's written about it with real candor in his memoir about how music gave him a purpose long before marketing did. He's one of the few people in B2B who can talk about content demand and a great live show with equal authority. And that combination is exactly why this is going to be a great convers. So what are you gonna learn from this, uh, episode? Well, you're gonna learn what a decade of the music industry taught Jason about marketing to actual people. Why the strongest B2B content has a point of view and a personality, not just a publishing calendar. And how a creative, uh, nerve builds trust, how playing it safe quietly erodes it. And what stays valuable on anybody or anything can produce endless competent on brand content. Jason, welcome. Fantastic to see you this morning, Joel.

Speaker A: Uh, thank you for having me on. Uh, I'm thrilled to be here. I know, uh, we have a long history that goes way back. So thrilled, uh, to be invited and

Speaker B: a shared love of music. Although yours is much more hands on than mine is, um, which m I'm very envious of.

Speaker A: I really wish that. Excuse me. I wish that the music industry was in a better place when I had left it because there was no choice but to go into B2B. And it's funny because at no point did I ever say, oh man, I can't wait to become a B2B marketer. Uh, that was just never on my list. I think a lot of us kind of fell into that as well. But, um, yeah, I think the music industry is coming back a little bit and it's a completely different beast. But lots, uh, of lessons from each. It's an interesting space to be.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, I think I. Sure there's lots of lots. I hadn't thought about that dimension. The kind of challenges that marketing is having as a profession versus the challenge that the music industry is having. So there's um, maybe that's an uh, interesting side tangent we can take it into. So just before we quickly get into the questions, Jason, just a quick note from you if you remember, if you're enjoying this conversation, if you'd like some of the insights that we're surfacing, please don't forget to subscribe to, like to follow however you consume this content, whether it's on audio or video. So, um, we'd love to get your thoughts. Let me get you to sign up to see future or listen to future episodes. It's really helpful to me in terms of recruiting the right guests and building the podcast, finding great people like Jason, or having an excuse to reconnect with great people like Jason, which is the, which is the best thing for me today. So. So Jason, so let's talk a bit about, uh, let's just set the scene right now. You were talking about this beforehand because you've, as discussed, you've been at some of the biggest names in B2B. Martech particularly. But tell us about where you are right now.

Speaker A: Uh, I'm at a company called V7 Labs, which is um, a startup that basically uh, does very intense, heavy document workflows for um, high dollar stakes for very specific industries. Pe, private equity, insurance, and uh, real estate is where we really shine. But it's uh, agents and workflows and uh, the memory layer that locks all this together, um, into a place where uh, you need trust, you need zero hallucinations, you need to be able to sort, source every single um, bit of your file um, and uh, do it in a meaningful way that's repeatable. So uh, agentic workflows with a memory layer for finance, insurance and real estate doesn't sound like the most exciting thing. But the uh, platform can do so many different things.

Speaker B: It's pretty amazing if we're kicking around why, whether it's exciting or not, where we shouldn't be in B2B. That's my point of view. It's all about the kind of getting it done. It's about the kind of technicalities, the stuff that makes the world go around.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And this is really important stuff. Um, and you know gone from corporate life into much more agile kind of like um, startup kind of piggyback world, haven't you? And that's a different set of challenges and excitement around working at B2B.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting to me, I mean coming from you know uh, I was a pretty early marketer at LinkedIn, uh and watching LinkedIn, I mean LinkedIn marketing solutions operated much like a startup within a larger org. Nobody really cared about us. And it's funny to see how big LinkedIn is now because when I started uh, in the feedback like there was no feed, there was nothing, nobody cared about it. Um, and uh, now it's just, you know it's an essential piece of any B2B, um tech stack and personal brand as well. So uh, yeah I find myself much happier in the world with zero red tape and um, being able to take risks and being able to move faster. That's where I like to live. I've always been happy there. Not good in the corporate environment.

Speaker B: I, I can probably relate to that as well. Although probably less um, yeah I can say relates that not having to have to, to give, have some agility in terms of what you're doing content wise I think is, is a really uh, is a, it's a powerful enabling force. So. And it's worth saying you're, you're American but you're living here in London. You know, you've almost adopted the language. I think you know, generally speaking we're speaking the same language which is good to see. You know we, we are, we are as Winston Churchill said, we can speak the same language to just about together. Which is good to hear.

Speaker A: I, I don't even, you know what, to be honest with you, I don't even think about it anymore. It's been 10 years uh, since I moved over here and uh, I don't even think about it anymore. Uh, I just still love the energy and the fact that, uh, I live in London. It's amazing for me.

Speaker B: Well, it's great to have you here, certainly. And, um, we value all the great community you have in London, but also the ability to touch people from all around the world and bring it in together. So let's talk about your story then. Um, as you hinted earlier on, you spent years in the music industry before moving to B2B marketing. Um, looking back, what did that world, um, understand about audience that marketing perhaps hasn't caught up with? I mean, maybe you could give us a bit of background first about what you were doing in the music industry and then answer that question.

Speaker A: Yeah, so, uh, look, it was a perfect job for me straight out of college. Uh, I was doing artist development. So basically, uh, they would give me all the baby band. I was a field marketing rep, essentially, and they would give me the baby bands that they just signed to the label. And I would go out in a white van. They'd give you a white van. Every band on Columbia Records got the same white van. And we'd, uh, drive around to radio stations and, uh, do tours and record, uh, stores and pretty much anything and everything we could do. Sometimes we had nothing to do. We just sat there. Um, but I mean, I was out with System of A down in one of these vans, like, driving around with Mud Vein. Uh, you know, I was out with, uh, John Mayer when he signed his deal. I've got some crazy John Mayer stories that are not even safe for any podcast, I don't think. But it was an interesting time because I, uh, think metal, like, new metal was kind of a thing. But it was an interesting place because there was so much new kind of crazy experimental stuff coming out. Um, but it was also a very, um, volatile time because I think if you had one band that was popular and it was very much like B2B marketing. Now, funny enough, if you had one big band that was popular, of course there's like, you know, 100 other clones that come around. Everyone's trying to copy it. And the major labels just sign all these bands. They don't. I mean, they say they care, but they just kind of throw them all at the wall to see what sticks and whatever sticks becomes, you know, the next big thing. Uh, or at least they try to. But there's so much. There's some of my favorite artists, some of the best music I've ever heard in my entire life. Joel never, um, came out, uh, got. Shelved or got completely ignored, and it drove me crazy. Um, and I think, uh, that's certainly not something I don't miss, but it's why I keep my ties and still do the photography and the music, blogging and all that stuff. I love the music. I love turning people onto new music. Um, but, uh, the record industry was just fighting digital, and by the time they decided to embrace it, the cat was out of the bottle and everything, all hell broke loose. So, um, here we are today.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a cautionary tale in so much of that. Um, yeah, and it's fascinating, the journey you've been to, the stories that you've got. And so I guess just. I appreciate I gave you two questions in one there. So, um, yeah, I mean, I mean, just back to the question, you know, what did that world understand about audiences that marketing says and caught up with? What do you think that, um. Is it back to your point around the fact that some of the great, best marketing never sees a light of day because we just, you know, we haven't got the courage to put it out there?

Speaker A: I think it's more about, you know, when I came into B2B marketing, I didn't really know what B2B marketing was. I just knew what marketing was. So I come from B2C, right. So I didn't know there were any rules or, you know, any guidelines or best practices, because there wasn't really out there. It wasn't the flood of content yet. Um, and so I just kind of did what I did. And I called an agency, Chris, you know, from Scorch, I think you met him a few times. And I said, chris, uh, I need some help with a B2B campaign. He goes, what's B2B? I'm going, don't worry about it, Lake. And we just started creating cool stuff. But we brought this B2C mentality to B2B. And I know this is completely overplayed. Um, but look, we had fun and we had personality in a very specific, serious industry. Uh, but I think the biggest lesson was, um, two things. One is, I think we brought a sense of, uh, likability to a B2B brand that hadn't been seen before. And I think you started to see HubSpot and Salesforce. All these brands became m. They had personalities, and people wanted to get closer to them. They were doing cool things and taking risks. And, uh, I think that was interesting. But if you look at the music industry, I think they did really well. Uh, they never called their fans, leads I guess, you know, I guess you could say that it was always about community, it was always about being closer to a band. And um, you know, Iron Maiden like just played, you know, over the weekend at edfest, uh, at Nebworth. They got a perfect, perfect uh, review uh, in the Independent, in the Times. That's like Bob Dylan numbers, man. You don't get perfect reviews for a metal band. But uh, if you look around at EdFest, which is the big festival, like people don't just go there to see the music, they live the experience, they wear the shirts, um, they follow the bands, they're interested. And I think, I'm not saying that we need to uh, be in love with B2B brands, but I think there are some lessons there where you can take in humanizing kind of still over these terms, humanizing, authentic, transparent. But there's something there about not trying to be something for everybody. Not everyone's gonna love Iron Maiden, but the people that it's for focus on that. I think we've lost our way in terms of B2B and trying to get a viral hit or trying to be, you know, a one hit wonder if you will. Uh, and those, those, those tend to not work out too well for the artists, uh, who are playing state fairs, uh, you know, playing the encore uh, twice of the same hit song.

Speaker B: Yeah, I quite agree. I mean your point about, you know, you didn't mention Marketo personally there but Marketo, they were one of the, you did work for Marketo, right?

Speaker A: I've got that right, yeah. What was a, uh, early marketer reported directly to John Miller.

Speaker B: So I mean Marketo, a brilliant example of that in that I remember when they started arriving in the UK and I was a bit like, I was a bit taken aback by the kind of the, some of the language they're using but actually all it was doing was what you were saying, it was just, it was something they were just doing that, just playing. Very, very human and very, very colloquial and in a way that I just wasn't frankly wasn't used to as a consumer even though. But, and I think what testament to that now is the recently spending some time with some, a group that are uh, marketing technologists and they're talking about how Adobe's essentially trying to kill the brand. Like I say brand, but they've realized they can't because there's still all these people out there who believe purple because they've, they've done this job of capturing people's hearts and minds even Though it's gradually being subsumed into the Adobe mother brand, it still has tremendous legacy resonance and loyalty, even after all this time, after all that corporatization.

Speaker A: That speaks for itself, doesn't it? Well, you know the direction from John Miller, like he told me, um, this is years ago, he said, get, uh, people to like us. He goes, get people to like, like Marketa, like the brand. Not, you know, click a like button. And that was it. And I said, well, what's my budget? He goes, well, you have the platform to tie, you know, revenue back. I mean not everything, you know, goes directly back to revenue and uh, numbers and metrics. But he said, get people to like us, uh, and spend what you need within reason, um, but track everything you possibly can. And there was, you know, no perfect roadmap, but that was literally the play, that was the playbook. Uh, and you know, um, yeah, we just did and we were consistent. This is the other thing, Joel. It's like, you see, like, I can't tell you how many times, like back in the day, it was the same example, showed up at every single B2B conference or conference or whatever, marketing conference. It was always Red Bull, Dove and uh, Old Spice, right? And I remember being at one of these conferences where the guy, whoever it was, the agency or the creative lead did the Old Spice ad and he like, the person was up, I don't even remember who it was, but I remember them being up on stage and they were very, um, adamant about, oh, like, yes, we did this idea and here's how big it was and it was awesome. And someone, uh, they said, are there any questions? And someone asked, they said, well, if it was so, you know, um, I wouldn't say easy, but if it was so easy to do, why didn't you repeat it? Why didn't you do it again? And they didn't have an answer. So it's like. And I think you see a lot of these big sort of moments in B2B, the Jean Claude Van Damme, the Volvo split. Have they ever, you ever seen a, um, mention of Volvo in B2B marketing outside of that. But you know, it's those things, those are the one hit wonders.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: And sometimes they can work for a brand that's as big as Volvo, but when you're a startup, a one hit wonder, uh, you're going to get lost. And how do you repeat that? Um, that's the question.

Speaker B: Yeah. The tyranny of the Volvo advert, which, if you haven't ever seen it by the way is the. It's still the best bit of BP market I think I've ever started. Extraordinary. Um, it's John Paul Clandam driving backwards while doing the splits of these two Volvo trucks. And it's um, it's quite strict. But they got to that after a long. That was this kind of seventh in a series of things that they built up to it. I think they just did it. They were. We kind of atop this. Let's just stop marketing now and go home.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's it. Like, like you, you're done, right? I mean, uh, but you know it's, it's the other thing that kind of drives me crazy is um, just. I think I saw an ad from HubSpot. Look, I love HubSpot. I use HubSpot. I'm a power user. The first introduction I had to B2B marketing was reading uh, Inbound Marketing by you know, Dharmesh and Brian Halligan years ago. Uh, that was the book for me that got me into B2B marketing. But there was an ad the other day I saw and uh, it looked like a TikTok ad which is fine, but the. Now um, I'm being, I guess I'm being that old B2B marketer. Get off my lawn. But the, the, the last line was get the new research report. It slaps. And I thought. What did you just fucking say? It slaps. And I thought like you just completely. I mean I think I'm pretty cool and hip with the times. I mean but that uh, that completely HubSpot who can do no wrong in my book just went down like 10 notches. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, like it's that little thing it was, it's almost like punk versus poser. Like that's a very. And I know a lot of people are gonna hear this but I love HubSpot. But that very like did not go over well. That was very poser esque for me. That was HubSpot trying to squeeze into the Gen Z audience uh, out of the blue, uh, and then alienating me because I don't. I think the word slaps is terrible.

Speaker B: It's a tough one, isn't it? I mean, I guess it's how, you know, and we're constantly wrestling with this and we're constantly being told that so many, you know, 70% of the buying groups now are uh, Millenn, uh, and Gen Z's and Gen Z, Gen Z's. But at the same time. So do you appeal to them? Do their Parlance. And do you alienate our, uh, generation? How do you, how do you play? Or does it as you say, does it make them think it's like dad dancing, you know, like. Well, it's, it's in the, in the high of the beholder. It's the nuance in the moment of the content marketer creating that, I suppose. And, and you know, yeah, I probably similar response to you, but. Answer the postcard please, if you, if you would like to see um, slaps more often in your marketing communication. Uh, you know, we will, I will definitely defer to. That's what everybody thinks.

Speaker A: I mean, look, look, I think it's just, it's just um, you know, I see something from Dharmesh in my feed on LinkedIn and it's highly technical and it speaks directly to me. It's futuristic, forward thinking. It's all things that I know that I associate, that I want a HubSpot to be. And then I get some uh, uh, uh, some character yelling yo, this research report slaps. And I'm like, I, uh, mean I'm, I'm just getting over like the new like someone the other day, like the sick thing. Like, oh, it's sick. I think we said that in the metal days back, but I'm fine with that. But it feels forced and it feels like it came out of nowhere. Right? There was no transition.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the point, is easing you into the colloquialisms. Um, what music gave you a sense of purpose, long form marketing dizz. How did that kind of shape the marketer that you've become, do you think in terms of your love for music?

Speaker A: I think it's always, it's given me um, sort of a flavor or something to kind of differentiate myself with. Like, I think people know I love music. They know I don't hold back. And I take these kind of these, these fun little anecdotes from music history, uh, and I use them to explain very complicated marketing challenges. Right? So, um, it could be Black Sabbath on thought leadership and um, you know, or could be the Clash on uh, you know, PR and media. But uh, it's just these little interesting stories or these remarkable anecdotes where, uh, moments in music history where everything came together sort of culture, message, sound, look, feel, you know, and I take that and I try to apply it to B2B. And of course it's not one to one, but there are certainly lessons. Uh, and I think it makes your thinking unique. Not only bringing that B2C approach to B2B, but having an angle or a, um, like I said, like a flavor of everything I do, everything I do, everything I post, uh, generally has some nod back to something I love, which is either music, um, Seinfeld or photography. You know, that's kind of my space. And I think that's what makes you unique and that's how you find your voice. Um, there's something to be said. I can't say this enough. And this is the premise of the book. The book is about reinvention, but it's also about combining your passions. Ah. If you can figure out a way to combine things you're passionate about and then put your voice out there, people can see that. They know it's not, you know, AI slop, they know it's coming from a real person. It's strong opinions. Uh, and I think people want to, they gravitate towards that because they can feel, um, that it's real and it's not, you know, it's not bullshit.

Speaker B: I guess the thing was that, that was, that was always going to be compelling. But it's even more compelling in the last three years since we've had chat tdp, right. You know, if you go to one of your presentations at B2B Ignite, for example, six years ago, whatever, and you were talking about rock and it, that was, it was all. The room was always packed and it was, always got a great response. But now we're in this age of this machine gun slop, right? We need to stand out. I guess my question, probably an, um, unrehearsed question to you is. Yeah, uh, I love this on a personal content creator message. But if you're a corporate, right, if you're a content marketer working for a corporate, that's got to be a bit harder to do, right? Because you've got to, you gotta, you've got to toe the line there. How is it possible to be, have that level of personality and yet be working within a, with a bigger marketing firm, with a set of brand police and all that kind of stuff?

Speaker A: It is, it is absolutely is. But you know, when I was at Microsoft, um, you know, they hired me and this is true, they said they, they wanted me to make Bing look cool. Um, and, you know, and I'm up for a challenge. I thought Bing has some, some cool things about it. And, uh, every time I would come up with really good messaging or an idea, a big swing, it would, would go one of two routes. It would either go through, um, you know, too many cooks in the kitchen. And the idea would be distilled down into something that was never meant to be and completely forgetful. Uh, and just you're drained of energy. Or the other one is you get everything lined up, everyone's excited and then the last minute someone says, we can't take that risk. So you're up to the bat, you're ready, you get that fastball and you want to hit it out of the park. Uh, and they just, you know, they pull you out of game, they kill it. So now flip that with going to a startup. Yes. Uh, strong opinions, uh, obviously keep politics religion. You gotta be smart about it. But the key is to be likable, personable and have something to say. And I think this is what I love about gen Z on TikTok, because these gen Zer influencers on TikTok, they aren't saying anything remarkable. They're not like splitting atoms on TikTok. What they are is they're likable. They're big, likable personalities. And I think you're starting to see some of that shift over to LinkedIn, I think the video thing, like they're trying to force a video instead of letting it happen. More organic. And now there's this whole debate. But there's uh, something about like these TikTok folks with, with these TikTok influencers with millions of followers, uh, and you like latch on and you just, like that, you just want to be around them and their personality, they're not saying anything remarkable. Now take that likability and personality and put it into a steady stream of thoughts that are interesting, inspiring and solving problems. Then I think you have what you can apply to a brand in any specific industry. And this is, this is what I, I love. I mean I like, I've moved from legal tech to marketing to developers, uh, in the last few years over to uh, finance real estate. The smaller the niche, I think, the easier it is to figure this out because you're not speaking to, you're not trying to be everything to everybody. You're speaking to this niche, uh, and you're trying things and God forbid you screw something up. Um, I think it's very forgiving in this space if you're trying, uh, and you have the credibility to back it up.

Speaker B: So Brian McCready, I don't know if you know Brian from Adelshaw Goddard, who's, um, really well, uh, very successful marketer also someone who's constantly pushing the boundaries. He was at Ignite last week and he said unless you a Little bit sick. When you're going into a correct campaign review, you're not trying hard enough, right? You've really got to put yourself. You've got to put yourself out there. And it's a little bit like the David Bowen Brian. We compare Brian to the David Bowie thing about, you know, you're. You've got to make yourself, put yourself outside your comfort zone. Do you agree with that? Is you need to be. Do you need to be at that bleeding edge? Or, or should you have. Or, or should you just. You don't have to put yourself that much in the firing line. What do you think?

Speaker A: I think you need to be consistent. I think you need to show up. Um, I think that is probably the biggest differentiator between what I see working. Uh, I mean, look on your LinkedIn feed and you see the same people posting very regularly, these very big, well thought out posts. And, uh, I find that. I don't think you need to be necessarily, again, the smartest market in the world or solving every single problem at once. But if you have a strong opinion, um, about something, or even if you find something remotely entertaining, uh, or something relevant, I mean, that's. I think we see something and we're like, oh, that's interesting. And we just forget about how we could post it or shape it in a way, um, much like just a conversation. I think we're turning LinkedIn. I'm going to focus on LinkedIn because it's the obvious, but we're turning LinkedIn into this, um, popularity contest instead of just an actual social network of what it was supposed to be. I know that kind of sounds silly and basic, but, you know, people are writing posts to go viral instead of writing posts about themselves. I think, you know, if, if, if I look, if I tie that back to music, if you look at something like, you know, Rick Rubin, am I completely off track here?

Speaker B: No, it's good. Keep going, Keep going.

Speaker A: Uh, like, let me step back and say I have so many ideas, uh, and never short on things to post or talk about. I like to talk and I'm constantly curious. I think John Burkhart is another great example. This constant curiosity, right? Um, but, uh, even my photography, even on Instagram, I Post probably maybe 20% of the images I take. Um, just because I create for me and that's okay. And, uh, it makes me smarter and it keeps me inspired. M. It makes me better at work. I don't give a shit if I'm better on LinkedIn. I care about. Am I better with my team? Am I better at work? Is my CEO trusting me? Are the founders trusting, um, that I have the, you know, m. The best instincts to do what's right for the company, but, you know, back to the. Create for yourself. This is interesting because Rick Rubin, um, is famously known for, you know, Johnny Cash and reinventing these careers. Neil diamond, like, he's worked with everybody. But there's a couple of moments where, uh, some of the best things he made or found were created for the individual. Uh, under the Bridge by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. A really great story. Anthony Kiedish wrote this, um, and didn't share it with the band because he thought it was slow, it wasn't funky, and it didn't fit on Blood Sugar, Sex Magic, which was the big album at the time. But Rick Rubin was digging through and found this and said, what's this? And pulled that out of him. He said, oh, I created that for me. Like, he just made. He was just one of the greatest songs of the 90s. What a great story. A poem about his drug addiction and his challenges. He wrote it for himself, uh, and it never would have seen it in the world. And that's okay, uh, because it made him, uh, uh, you know, a better person, a more interesting person. Uh, you know, and it was almost therapy, in a sense, for him.

Speaker B: I think that the whole point about the. That's a really interesting story. I'd never heard that one. Your example there, the Chili Peppers, is a brilliant one. So that kind of creativity and unlocking it is fascinating and multifaceted, and it plays to the point around giving people creative freedom to. To take risks and do things that they need to do. It sounds like, for your perspective, being likable is a critical aspect of your kind of coda for success, and then, uh, the kind of risk taking as well as part of it as well. Is that fair?

Speaker A: I think it's being likable. It's being relevant. Um, it's being consistent. Um, yeah, I think all three of those things, I think the biggest challenge, I think, for most people, and again, just like exec, CEOs, founders, whatever, the marketers, the world that I live in is, you're looking at, um, what's happening on LinkedIn. You're comparing yourselves to someone with 110,000 followers who, uh, clearly has someone writing their posts for them. Because, uh, look, I tell you what, I work in a startup and I've worked in corporate, and there's no way in hell anyone is doing the work and writing these posts at the Same time, it is impossible. Now what I think is what I'd like to get into, I'd like to see more people get in the habit of, and I have this as well, struggle with this myself, is posting the draft, is working in public. Can you get ideas out there and help let your community sort of um, help you build and flush those ideas out. I don't think we do enough of that. I think we post complete ideas and solutions and expect uh, comments and generally they're all the same. Oh, that's great, thanks so much. Or God, uh, forbid the comment for the fucking download or PDF or whatever. But, but um, I think there's something to be said about the scrappy marketers who are just posting half baked ideas, but they're consistently uh, consistent in their approach, uh, and they're taking and building in public. That's where I would like to see LinkedIn shift to as opposed to all these, you know, completely, um, I wouldn't say fabricated, but these complete thoughts that are built out in a way. And it's also like I wrote about this in how to be a Marketing Contrarian Jerk is uh, when they put these blanket statements out there that say, oh, if you're not doing it like this, then you're doing it wrong and you're fucking stupid. Like that makes me crazy. I was on a, um, uh, like 11 labs in clay, right? Two of the hottest companies in B2B. I think you're doing really cool stuff. Uh, I think they're untouchable in terms of uh, their playbook and their growth. But um, they're pitching it it and other people are pitching it as you can do this too. And it's like, no you can't. Uh, and there's several reasons why. I mean growth, investment, um, you know, just pure uh, growth, uh, marketing, um, you know, people in seats. And uh, at the end of, I was watching this Clay did this behind the scenes, um, thing a couple weeks ago. I think like Clay's great product, we use it, it's fine. But, but uh, at the end of the webinar someone um, asked us, said, oh, is this book, is this playbook repeatable? And they basically said no. Like, what do we just sit here for an hour for then if we can't do any of this? Uh, and then the guys, I know they're kind of taking a piss, but one of the questions was who's more handsome? Uh, and they had like the growth marketer versus the brand market. I'm going, what's going on here? Man. Now, were there some. Is Clay doing some really cool stuff? Of course they are, but I. I don't. I'm not very comfortable. And I don't like it when, you know, these big brands come out there and they put their playbooks out there, uh, and then expect everyone to be able to repeat it. Um, that's what drives me absolutely great.

Speaker B: It very reminiscent of a session that I should about 10 years ago. Maureen Blandford. You know, Maureen is another American, based in the uk.

Speaker A: Yeah. Love Maureen. We go away.

Speaker B: She's fantastic. And, um, she was. She would do the same. It's about how my take on this was some of those messages from those big software vendors. It's a bit like selling a dream in a way, that consumer brands will sell an unattainable dream. If you buy this car, your family will look like this and you'll go on these holidays. And that's not what happens. You're selling this version of reality, which if. And it's. And. And she went further. She was saying, actually, they're extraordinarily patronizing and unrealistic about, you know, if only you understood what data could do. Like, we do understand what we can do. We just. We're just constrained by all of these things. So, yeah, I completely get that. That's a. That's, ah.

Speaker A: A.

Speaker B: That's a fascinating perspective. Um, Jason, I could talk to you all day, but I've got a crowd. We're kind of running out of realist, reasonable time, and I want to just. Sadly, I need to kind of draw this conversation to a conclusion. I wanted to try and distill your very impassioned thoughts because we've covered virtually none of the questions I prepared for dear listeners as well, because we just went off on tangents in a really good way. Um, but I wanted to steal what your kind of perspectives on how to be a great creator, a great content marketer, a great growth marketer. Because it sounds like all those things are intersecting.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Particularly in your world right now. What does that. You used to touch this a few times. Uh, if it feels like you shouldn't be boxed in.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It should be about you have the ability to create risks, to be likable. Is that right? And what else should they be trying to do in this current world?

Speaker A: Uh, look, I think, you know, the. The elephant in the room is going to be AI. I mean, obviously, Right. Uh, I have some very specific thoughts on this. Um, but there was one post the other day I got to get off LinkedIn. Joel. It's killing me. I saw a post the other day and I promise I'm setting this up where uh, someone had created uh, an agent to um, to basically grade your posts on taste. And I thought, oh my God, we've finally done it. We've outsourced the last human trait. Uh, we've outsourced taste to AI, which is absolutely bonkers to me. Um, and this comes like two weeks after there was a, uh, I was about ready to post this this morning. There was an experiment where um, these, uh, I guess they hooked up a text to image. Did you see this in the news? Um, they hooked up a text to image generator agent AI and then uh, put it into a loop with an image to text generator and just let it run. Um, and what happened was completely unprompted. And what the expectation is, it was that AI is going to learn and grow. But what happened was it just kept getting more and more mundane, more and more average, to where the output after having this thing running nonstop was uh, just the most generic, bland, you know, uh, sound or image scapes and landscapes. And it basically proved that it's the, it's the, it's, it's trained on it, it's trained on the world to find the average and pull that average into a sum. Uh, and so trying to outsource or get an agent to give you taste is the worst possible thing I think you could do right now. Uh, and furthermore, what really pisses me off about this, Joel, to be honest with you, is taste is very subjective. Taste is absolutely subjective. If you're hiring for a designer, like, it's subjective if you like their style or not. It's based on your taste, is based on your environment. Um, I wrote about this on LinkedIn like two weeks ago. I'm, I'm very knowledgeable about hair metal. I know a lot about hair metal. Uh, some people might not like that or know about. That's my taste, that's their taste. But how can you combine all that into one big blanket and put it out there and say I have taste and you don't? Because we grew up in different environments, have different experiences and don't share the same thing. So anyway, that's the first thing. The second thing is, look, man, we're in some trouble here because I also saw a post that said, um, uh, marketers should not be technical enough to build agents and workflows. Uh, this is the worst advice we uh, could have right now. This is me being 100% serious. If you're a marketer moving into 2027. And you do not know how to build a basic agent to complete, uh, a repeatable task at scale. Um, if you don't know how to build a workflow to solve for all of these mundane, uh, tasks that you're doing every day that are keeping you away from, from doing actual growth work. Ah. And if you don't understand how all this fits together into the bigger picture and how to build an engine, um, there's no tool out there. There's no single tool or platform in any marketing role that will do everything you needed to do. I think the clay example, 11 labs, whatever. Um, what I'm saying is right now it's bespoke. You need to understand how to build these things or hire a growth hacker and coach him along the way. Uh, this is what the future of B2B looks like to me. It's someone with taste, experience, uh, and the ability to, uh, inspire and grow a team and move the fucking needle. And the second piece is the ability to build these tools yourself using agents, workflows, quad, whatever. Perplexity, uh, relevance. AI is another interesting ones. No code. Um, and then V7 Labs. We build all of our own stuff in V7 Labs as well. But understanding that, uh, and coming up with a bespoke solution to, um, your role, uh, to your audience and to your team. This is the future of B2B marketing. No fluff, no bullshit. It's those two things. It's technical and it's experience. Uh, it's opinions and personality. If you don't have that, you're going to fail miserably.

Speaker B: Um, Jason, that was beautifully put. And I, in fact, I had to. We got to 36 minutes for. We didn't mentioned AI, which is brilliant. You know, I'm trying to push that threshold back as far as I can, but you caved in at the last minute and you mentioned it, but I'm glad you did because it was really great set of advice. So, um, I've loved having you. I always love talking to Jason. I've loved having you on the podcast, though. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Speaker A: Joel, always a pleasure. Uh, and, uh, let's go, uh, grab a drink because we are in the same city together.

Speaker B: We need to do that. Okay, well, so Jason and I are going to go for a drink. Well, not now, but mid. Later. Sometime soon. But you want to join us? Drop me a line. Um, um, but for now, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Um, uh, please do. Let me know. Please drop any comments or questions. Please just drop them my way, whatever feed you need to by LinkedIn or in the comment section. Um, and don't forget to subscribe to, like or to follow whichever mechanism is appropriate for you. But for the meantime, thanks for listening and see you next time on the Trust and influence of B2B marketing podcast. Thanks a lot.

Speaker A: Bye bye.