Aesopians E7 - Joining The Feel Good MSP Sales Training Program Ft. Brian Gillette

Speaker A: Welcome to the Aesopiens podcast, where the wisest in the channel come to get their MSP marketing insights. Today we've got a very exciting guest with Brian Gillette of the Feelgood msp, who is one of the leading sales consultants in the channel and provides sales training and coaching for MSPs. Uh, it's a really fun episode, so let's dive right in. Foreign. Welcome to the Aesopians podcast. We're here with another episode and today we're featuring Brian Gillette of the Feel Good msp, also known as the Feel Good Close. Um, welcome, Brian.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, man. I'm glad to be here.

Speaker A: Awesome. Um, well, for those who may not know, um, I'm pretty sure a good chunk of the MSP space knows who you are as well, but we might have few outside of market viewers. So why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Speaker B: Sure. Um, you make me sound like I'm a celebrity. I don't think I'm as important as you think I am.

Speaker A: Uh, don't, don't sell yourself short. I think you got a little good, little bit of celebrity in the MSP space. Oh, and you were an actor?

Speaker B: I was an actor and I did actually get recognized in the. In an airport coming back from a conference. And I was in. I was in Dallas or something. And so like, the conference was in Florida and I was in Texas in an airport. And this guy walks up to me and he goes, hey, are you the Feel Good clothes guy? I was like, how do you know who I am? Because he was at the same conference as I was, but we like, ran into each other in a, ah, in a shuttle, in an airport, somewhere else. So that's the most celebrity I've ever felt. Uh, anyway, my name is Brian Gillette.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I have a sales consulting company where I help MSPS build their sales process. It's called Feel Good msp. And, you know, I don't know. What else. What else do you want to know about me?

Speaker A: Uh, well, I. I thought you were going to say somebody recognized you from a Persian music video.

Speaker B: No, those are my deep cuts. Yeah. Not a lot of people have seen me in the back of those. No, dude, I literally. I tell that joke on stage a lot. Because I literally did. It was like, uh, gosh, this would have been a decade ago at least. No, over a decade ago. 2013. And it was like a Tuesday afternoon. I'm just laying around and my roommate goes, hey, do you want to do this project with me Today, they're paying 100 bucks. And I was like sure. And it was just a music video extra like cattle call. They're like just show up, be in the background of this music video. You'll be here for like six hours. We'll pay 100 bucks cash. So he had signed up, I hadn't signed up. But that's sort of how non union projects were all. It's all a total freaking goat rodeo. So I just like drove down to Burbank somewhere and went into this like they were shooting in like an old warehouse and it was not air conditioned and they just walked in and he had like a wad of hundreds and he was just peeling hundred dollar bills off and handing them to us kids getting in line. And then I just like fake danced in the back of this m music video. And this guy had this huge 80s perm, like shoulder length and a mustache and he wore a white linen shirt and white linen like pleated pants and didn't speak any English. And I have no idea if he was like a big deal. I'd imagine he was at least somewhat successful if he was in LA shooting to shoot a music video. But yeah, he's just like rocking with his song and we were just like pretending to dance, breathing in fog machine fumes in a like 85 degree warehouse for a whole day. And that's what being an actor is.

Speaker A: Okay, cool.

Speaker B: Now you know.

Speaker A: And now you've kind of translated some of your acting skills to helping MSPs be a little bit more performative to help them close some more sales conversations with the feel good close? Um, a bit.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think I would say that what performative uh, is like is a word. I think that's certainly true. Like helping people become sort of their extroverted Persona. But I would say I, I would, I would rather use the word present. I help people become more present as they're selling because that's really what acting actually is, is like living completely in your body, even under extreme stress and being able to kind of live in the moment. So I'd say that that's really more about what the approach is. It's like how do I act more like a regular human and not let, not play a character where like I'm hiding behind some character that I'm playing. That's not really where the acting comes in. I think where acting comes in is helping you get over the fear of rejection and helping you get out of your head and more into the present moment. Um, that's a lot. I think that's more of the goal for me in how we help people sell.

Speaker A: Okay, yeah, I've seen a few of your um, you know, talks, listen to a few of your podcasts, and there's been a consistent theme of kind of some empathy based selling and uh, you know, like you said, kind of, you know, tapping into more of the human side. Uh, I know it's can be tempting for MSPs who are interacting with machines a lot all day or at the very least technical communication to kind of turn on a little bit more of a, you know, thinking, uh, and feeling type hat rather than a, uh, you know, logical and reasoning sort of, you know, mindset. Um, so I guess like, you know, tell us a little bit more, you know, let's just say you have an msp, they want to do some sales training and you know, coaching, um, what is like their first, you know, 60 days look like and how do you start to mold them from this elite technical, uh, Persona to a more uh, empathetic, uh, salesperson?

Speaker B: Hmm, that's a really good question. Are you talking about specifically in the Feel Good MSP program or just like best practices in general for coaching in MSP?

Speaker A: Uh, let's talk about the feel good MSP.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, the first 60 days. In some ways it depends on uh, your role. Like if I'm coaching a Salesperson, the first 60 days can be slightly different than if I'm coaching an owner versus like a marketing contributor. But I'd say for an owner the uh, first 60 days is really about. We don't talk technical at all. We don't even really talk about them at all. We're talking exclusively about the people they're trying to sell to. That's what empathy really means is putting yourself in another person's shoes and seeing things from their point of view. And that's actually a very practical job. There's some very tactical pieces of being empathetic in marketing because it's tempting when you're a subject matter expert to like decide what people want. And that's the mistake. Uh, uh, the mistake is this is what people want because this is what they need. And I've decided what they need because I, I'm the expert and you kind of. There's this great saying that sometimes I think gets misconstrued, but there's this like expression in marketing that says offer people what they want and then give them what they need. So okay, we know like they need to be more secure. Okay, but they don't even Know what that means? You know, like they need us to solve problems that, that they don't even know they have. So coming right out and telling somebody what they want is not a successful sales or marketing strategy. So that's why we got to start by figuring out who is this person. Like we build an ideal customer profile. To answer your question, practically, that's the first like month or two is building an ideal customer profile and then writing messaging that helps that person, the ideal client, understand what we can do for them.

Speaker A: Okay, and are you doing sort of like psychographic analysis of these ideal, uh, customer profiles or is it more mechanical with you know, firmographics and titles and things like that?

Speaker B: Yeah, great question. Uh, definitely both. Like you, you absolutely have to have both. So we call it, we have like this three legged stool of ours which is the demographics, psychographics and use case. The demographics is the external stuff, like what you just said, like their role, what city are they in, how many users do they have, what industry? That kind of stuff, the stuff you can search for in a database, but that's just going to help you make an external list and then you want to actually attract the people inside of that list that are the right kinds of customers. With psychographics. So we do like fears, goals, pains, and then like status. Because I'm a big believer that um, I'd rather help somebody become who they want to become than help somebody avoid a fear that they have. To me it's a lot more fulfilling, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I know you've been kind of a big advocate of the FUD free close. Um, you know, definitely want to avoid the negativity, um, and kind of those negative emotions because you know, like you said, you're, you're trying to create positive feelings and get people excited about uh, you know, buying and solving their own problems.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, and I get, I get a lot of pushback on that. Um, I'm just not for everybody. And that's uh, fine. I'm not really losing sleep over it because I a pretty mission driven guy. Like I'm really not just here to help you make more money. I want, I want the world to be better when we're done with it. And I just don't think it gets better by doing it the other way. You know, um, remember the movie Inception?

Speaker A: Of course.

Speaker B: Tom Hardy, or Tom Hardy who was like a legend. In fact, Tom Hardy has the line that I'm going to quote from, from that movie where they're making a plan of like how to incept the guy. And they're like, hey, do we put in this like, fu memory about the guy's dad? Like, do we get this guy to like hate his dad? And that's how we do it? And uh, and then DiCaprio goes, no, because I think positive emotion trumps negative emotion every time. And instead they decide to give this guy this like, cathartic release, like sense of acceptance. And then they get what they want out of him, you know, so they like manipulate him by. But he's like healed at the end of it. And then like the world is better off because he did that. Because that was the whole premise of the movie. Like the world is going to be bad if he conglomerates it. All the, all the energy or whatever it was. Um, so I'm not suggesting that we're like incepting our prospects, but, uh, actually we kind of are. That's kind of what sales is, is like helping people understand that, uh, your solution is their idea. And if we can help people become who they want to become, then in a way that's actually making their. Bettering their situation, then that's a feel good close right there. But just saying like, hey, if you're going to die if you don't hire me, you're going to get hacked in five seconds. And basically vaguely threatening to hack them because we do a dark web scan and be like, hey, I found your email password. Now pay me 5000 bucks and nobody else will find it. Um, I don't know, do we really, do we really think acting that way is going to make the world like us more and trust us more? Like, do we really think that's the move? I'm just not sure it is.

Speaker A: So you used the kind of phrase mission driven, uh, earlier, which I thought was, uh, interesting because, um, you know, the IT space, the MSP space has a lot of overlap with like cybersecurity as a domain, which. Cybersecurity has a very strong military influence. Um, because a lot of people who come into cybersecurity do have like a military background. And I think a lot of them tend to bring a direct communication style, very hierarchical communication style. Um, are, you know, so they're used to maybe having some authority kind of intrinsically, like part of what they say. And I think that has had a strong cultural influence on the IT sector overall. Um, and I think that's something that a lot of, you know, um, IT companies and you know, MSP people tend to struggle with is, um, you know, realizing that they have to, like you said, Incept and motivate and have a prospect, you know, have it be their idea to want to work with them. You know, rather than be like listening to say like the salesperson said like you have a cybersecurity problem and then that's just taken as like fact or belief. Um, because it's, you know, they're used to that sort of ability with like, or that sort of communication style in their day to day roles.

Speaker B: That's such an interesting observation. There is a lot of military overlap, isn't there?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: It's similar demographics as well. Like that's a really good point. And IT guys, um, they don't really know how to not be taken seriously. Like they're, they're just used to being the smartest person in the room and they probably have been for most of their career, most of their life. And especially if you're coming from military or even coming from corporate where you're an IT director for a mid market or an enterprise company and you had like millions of dollars of budget and you had a lot of authority and you had 150 people underneath you, then you go and start an MSP and you can't get uh, vice president, the office manager of a 30 person, whatever accounting firm to take any of your advice. That's gotta just be so frustrating for the average IT person who's like, do you not know who I am? Like do you not know what all these letters after my name mean? Like I'm a freaking genius. I could be saving your life right now. I've been like fighting terrorism on your behalf and keeping the country and the industry safe and you're not listening to me at all. And uh, yeah, that could be really frustrating.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: we all have a version of that. Like I have to me, well it's not at all the same but I kind of get this version of like people have so much trauma around sales and marketing being unsuccessful that I, they actually, a lot of people are very like they're in a triggered or an activated state when they're even talking to me. Cause they've just been lied to so many times. They've just been like sold a bill of goods so many times and then the person under delivered that I get this like traumatized version of them and

Speaker A: they're like, they've got their shields up for trusting you as a sales coach.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. They're like, well I, you know, I, I don't believe sales guys are all full of crap basically. And I, you know, you never believe a Sales guy. Cause they can, they're silver, they're silver tongued and then that's when they get you. And it's not too dissimilar. Like I don't know. MSP is a managed service is a super hard sale. But it's not as hard as people think it is because everything is hard to sell for its own reason. Like sales is incredibly hard to sell because of what I just said. Everybody assumes I'm a liar all the time and they all kind of hate me just because of my job. But then they're coming to me like well I need to do the thing you know how to do. But I hate it and I don't want to have to do it. But I, it's like I'm like a necessary evil to them, you know, um, versus managed services. A lot of people will falsely identify as like a nice to have when it's actually mandatory. That's way different. They're apathetic towards managed services versus they're actively against what I do. You know what I mean? So.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, ah, I um, mean I was a, the preceding five years before I started my business I was a software developer. Um, and uh, so I was a tech guy before I started my business as a marketer. Um, and so I have had a very similar set of attitudes that I held previously, you know, towards sales and marketing people before I started my business, you know, quietly. Um, but I made the conscious choice when I, you know, started my business that I uh, was going to dispense all that uh, immediately because you know, one of the reasons I wanted to kind of, you know, start a business was that I saw that you know, sales and you know, marketing people kind of. I think the rule the world is run by people who do the selling to some extent. And I think, you know, you've had an interesting observation in your scalecon cop scalecon talk about that every job eventually promotes up to the salesperson. Um, so you know, and I will have to also say that like uh, I was very surprised how much harder sales and marketing and you know this whole domain is, uh, than you know, the tech sector. Tech sector is hard. Um, but um, so I totally understand what you're saying.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. People, a lot of people, they kind of, they, they want it both ways. They want to talk about how marketing and sales is impossible but that it's also really easy and they want to look down on the people who do it well. So like which is it? Is it a hard job or not a hard job? You know, and I kind of shake out that for the people who are like, there's some people that sales is very natural to them. It's not an easy job. It just, they have a skill set that makes it look easy from the outside. But there's nothing easy about getting told to f off 10 times a day when you're 18 years old, you know, and like, or a hundred times a day. There's just nothing easy about it. And if you don't believe me, Mr. Guy listening to this, go do sales for two days in a row. You probably have never done that because it's effing hard. You know, if it was easy you'd be doing it but like you're putting it off because you don't know how to do it because it's hard. I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to be elitist or something. I think we just, just need to talk openly about it. Like sales is a hard job. Uh, most people cannot do it successfully or do not do it successfully. And there's reasons for that. Um, you're finding that firsthand, hunter, like marketing, Marketing is hard enough. You're doing marketing for msps, that's a hard job. And now you have to sell marketing to MSPS and be like, let me do marketing for you. And that's a really hard job. Which is harder do you think, between those two tasks, actually delivering your job, delivering your service or helping people understand the value of your service?

Speaker A: Oh, selling it 100%. Yeah. And I think, you know, the grind of rejection and things like that is an off cited difficulty of sales. Um, I didn't even find that to be the hard part though. I think the hard part was um, coming from a tech background, if you want to get good at ah, technology, whatever skill, there's a formula for it and you can just follow it and run through that formula. And you are basically uncapped by the amount of how hard you work and things like that to pick up that uh, skill and become proficient at it quickly. Whereas sales and marketing is very experience driven. I used to get, you know, really upset in my career about like people's obsession with like experience because it's like if you work harder in technology, you can legitimately get proficient and be a better technician faster than somebody who's been on the job longer. Whereas in sales and marketing it is much more experience driven, it's much more dynamic. Um, and there's not really a formula. A lot of times, you know, there's training, there's Band. There's coaching, but like ultimately you just have to have practice. Uh, and you have to adjust your messaging and your talks and your in the moment, you know it to the prospect that you're speaking to. Which is something that I found to really be the hardest part.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. To have a, like a framework or a philosophy behind what you're doing. That's the way I describe it is I, I never want to tell people what to say. I want to teach people how to listen. That's the much better way of learning how to sell. And frankly, that's why most people are bad at sales, is that they have no idea how to listen. Um, I think that's why most people are bad at life because I'll, I'll break it down this way in conversation. Most people are waiting for their turn to talk. So when they're listening they're just like, so you'll, you know, even, even in this conversation, like the way that most people function is the person's talking and you listen to something that you can respond to and then you wait until they're done and then you respond to that thing. But that's actually not listening. That's listening to speak. That's not listening to understand. Now, conversation on an interview is not the same as a sales call. Of course, like we're interviewing. We have a responsibility to fill airtime right now. You know, we can't let 10 second lulls pass while we just like, ah, uh, enjoy one another's company. That's not the conversation we're having right now. We're having an interview. So you have to be more, much more intentional. And you're, you know, you have to be on right now because your job is to rein me in and also get me extrapolate great insights from me while hoping that this becomes entertaining. And you're doing all this thinking as you listen. That's what you're doing in sales. You uh, you have this massive responsibility to shepherd a person through a process that they don't want to go through to help them get a product that if they knew how to do it on their own, they would have already bought it. But they don't know. They don't know how to hire a good msp. That's why their MSP sucks. See what I mean? Because they don't know how to shop. So they buy the cheap one or they bought something that isn't real and then their MSP disappoints them. That's because they don't know how to Buy one. So a salesperson has to help them while also being in incredibly present. You have to listen like a w. Like a, like a, a little animal in the wild to listen like your life depends on it when you're selling. And that's why most people fail in sales is they will hear something a prospect says and they'll start formulating a rebuttal or response or some way of like squashing it or delivering or, or convincing them. And then they just shut off their ears. They just wait till the person's done or more common, dude, I see all the time on uh, on sales recordings, it guys will just interrupt them. Sure. And oh, actually, actually we don't do it that way because we do like this. And actually here's why you do need to have backup and here's why this happens. And then because they are listening for opportunities to demonstrate how smart they are. That's how IT guys think. And that's why they can't sell anything. Because it does not matter how smart you are. What matters is, is this person going to buy your product, show them how smart you are later when you're delivering your service. Right now you need to help them understand why it's critical that they say yes to you today. And it's not because of how smart you are. It's because of what result you can get them as. You know what I mean? Um, so that's where it comes down to is like, if I can teach you to take this all the way back to what you said a couple of minutes ago, if I can teach you how to listen, then you will intuitively know how to respond in different sales circumstances. Because you know what they are feeling and you know what they need and then you know how to elicit the next response that you need out of them. Because you've been listening really well.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, so like, I'm not a sales coach, um, but we were kind of talking in the pre show a little bit about, um, so I. Part of one of my jobs is like listening to sales calls or inbound phone calls that come into an MSP's, you know, business just to be like, was this a lead or was this somebody trying to sell something to the msp? So that's really like my main goal. But through the course of that, I have heard a lot of different salespeople and their styles and how they're fielding inbound, um, bound calls and things like that. And you know, um, so I see like, you know, two big stages where people tend to, you know, Fail. The first one is definitely, like you said, just learning how to listen, just learning how to, you know, be quiet for a little bit, truly understand, you know, thing and um, hear what the prospect's saying. Um, and then the other one was something that kind of jumped out for me from, from your scale contact for me. And that was kind of, uh, I think you called it empathy driven urgency. Um, and that's, you know, hearing what the prospects, you know, frustrations are and then getting about, excite, getting excited about that with them. And that in itself drives urgency. And maybe that's not exactly how you said it, but those are two things. Like, you know, listening is kind of stage one, but, but then like using those opportunities to build rapport with the prospect is the kind of next stage where I see like truly expert salesmen, like excel at doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Um, so I don't know if you

Speaker A: have any, you know, thoughts on that or um, elaborate on that with your kind of.

Speaker B: Sure. You're married, right?

Speaker A: Uh, I have been together with my fiance for 18 years, but still fiance status.

Speaker B: Uh, fiance.

Speaker A: Sorry, sorry.

Speaker B: I remember that, that now. I, I remember you had a long term partner because we, we talked about this one. So sorry. Okay, so you have a fiance. So uh, your job, when she comes to you with a problem or a frustration, you've been together long enough hopefully to have learned now that if you snap into Bob the Builder fix it mode every single time she has any frustration, she's actually not going to feel as connected to you in that moment. Like if your spouse goes, oh, uh, this happened to me today. And you go, well, you should have done this. Like all the dudes, all the, like, you know, all the dudes listening to this right now, they know that that's not actually what your partner wants from you.

Speaker A: Do you need a hug? Yeah.

Speaker B: You go, oh, I'm so sorry. How frustrating. I can't believe she said that. You just listen, you know what I'm saying? Now I don't mean to be derogatory here or something with this example, but like, dude, that's really all it takes to build a connection with somebody is just care about the person that you're listening to. But if you forget, if you're trying, if you're treating this conversation with somebody like you are executing prompts on command line, which is how it. People talk to people, they're going to feel it and they will not feel connected to you. They won't feel seen and therefore they won't feel safe if they don't Feel safe. They're certainly not going to feel like spending. So what you need to do is just like, okay, I'm not talking about derailing and not. And I'm not talking about being like, you can still be super intentional about it, but if somebody comes to you and goes, yeah, we're really having a problem with this thing, Stop and listen to what they just said. Like they told you about a nuisance, they opened up to you about something. What would you do if your partner came to you and said, oh man, I had this problem with this thing. I couldn't get. The key was stuck in the mailbox today. Are you going to go, oh, you should bring a WD40 with you next time? And you know what? I'm going to write a standard operating procedure for this. And next time you have trouble, uh, don't tell me about it. Just go ahead and read through all my standard operating procedures, wife. And that way you'll never get your key stuck again. Haha. I'm a great partner, but that's. Dude, that's like how we treat our customers sometimes is we're like, oh, yes, understood, I've written an article. Don't bother me until you've read all my articles, please. Um, instead of going, oh my gosh, isn't that so annoying? You were just trying to get the mail. What happened next? And now all of a sudden you're in a conversation where two people are listening to each other. That's what you're trying to do when you're selling. So if they give you a problem, then you connect with them as a human being. You don't have to be performative about this. Uh, I'm just. These are just silly examples of like, take off your freaking salesperson hat for a second. Listen. Think about what's happening. A person just told you a problem they're having. Listen to them. Give them a moment to let it breathe. What ends up happening inevitably is that as you, the more you empathize, the more they'll share and they'll open up more about it and they'll give you more context about it. And this is how you get pain without ever having to ask for pain. Like, uh, even how I said at Scalecon, like, if you just walk up to them and say, hey, tell me your pain points, they're gonna be like, why, perv? What are you trying to get out of me? You know, like, they're gonna, they don't love, they don't like that. That's a weird, predatory thing to say. Um, but if you just go, hey, why are we on the phone? Why'd you agree to take my call? Are you having issues? Do you mind tell me what that means? And then they say this is happening. And you go, wow, that sounds frustrating. And the deal is going to create momentum, but, uh, all you had to do is just be normal.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's kind of funny you mentioned my fiance too, because, um, her brother is like a pretty successful actuary and CFO and like, ah, the insurance space. And every time I kind, uh, of hang out with him, I'm always like, man, your brother is so good at, um, listening to other people's problems and getting just as upset about them as, as if they were his problems. And I think that's one of the main reasons he's been very successful is like, you know, it's like he doesn't care about, you know, I'm just gonna like, say like League of Legends or something like that. But he'll like, you know, he'll hear whatever your problem is and he'll get just so upset about it, like in a way that, you know, makes it sound like it. You really feel that he truly cares about whatever it is. Um, so he's, he's a great ranter and it's very endearing quality. And I think that's some, um, one of the reasons he's been so successful in like, you know, sales and uh, his domain. Just recognizing that pain and you know, having that, you know, shared feeling, building that shared connection, um, is a very powerful thing.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I, I just, I always have to caveat with it guys because I feel like there's sometimes they like to reduce things down to just sciences and processes. What I'm talking about is being empathetic. These are strategies to help you develop your empathy. Empathy is a muscle. Like if you historically just like don't care about people, then you're gonna have a hard time selling. And that's okay to, to acknowledge. Empathy is a weakness for a lot of people. And frankly, it's a weakness for a lot of it people and it's kind of a weakness for a lot of men. Like, sometimes women crush in sales because they just freaking listen because they've had to. Because they've had, you know, one hand tied behind their back in their career their whole life. So this had to like, be better to even just get a seat at the table. So sometimes women. That's why women dominate in like you. I think, uh, there's a very clear study on this. I don't have the citation for it, but, like, women in SAS are, like, much more likely to be top performers than men in sas, and there's a lot of reasons behind it. But, um, you know, at the, uh, at the risk of sounding like I'm painting with a broad brush here, I'm just saying, like, I oftentimes feel more connected. Like a woman cares more about what I'm saying when I'm telling it to her than, like a dude does. And I think it's a big piece, you know, just become more empathetic. It's going to make you not only a better salesperson, it's going to make you a better person. So that's going to make you a better business person in general.

Speaker A: I agree. Um, and I think it's kind of funny that you mentioned that, um, because I consider myself, who is somebody who is kind of, like, raised by women more so than men. Um, I had, you know, my mom and then my mom's best friend and my sister. Um, and, um. So I don't know if that was your experience kind of growing up, but I've gotten the feel that maybe you, uh, I don't know, spend more time around women than men in your childhood as well. How my aim there?

Speaker B: Well, definitely both. I mean, I have. So I have two brothers, I have two sisters. I have a mom and a dad. Um, but I have a twin sister, and she's like, a super empath. And that definitely did shape a lot of that for me. Empathy actually did not come, or how I should say it didn't come totally natural to me. Like, I'm, um, the. My. I'm a Myers Briggs entj, if that means anything to you. Um, which is like 3% of the world and like 50% of CEOs or something. Um, and I'm an enneagram 8, if that means anything to you, which is the contrarian. I. I've just sort of, like, loud and proud and the opposite of everybody else. This is sort of in my DNA. And I think empathy for me became like, I, uh, don't really feel connected to myself as a kid. Like, I felt very, like, out of my own body and kind of like out of control in a way of, like, how I felt as a young, young kid. And so it was a journey of, like, trying to figure out myself was. I started looking at other people a little bit more, I think, and, you know, just wanting friends and wanting to be seen and heard, which is literally all any human being wants. And as you start to like, accept those needs of your own, you start to be able to have more space and appreciation for fulfilling those needs for other people. And the best way to get people to like you is to be. Is to care about them. That's it. If you want to make more friends, just listen really well and ask great questions and make it clear that you care when people are talking and you will become popular overnight. You know, as a grown up, that's all it takes. As a kid, it's much more political and weird and adolescence is weird. But once you're like 18 years old, like, if you want to make more friends, just ask people questions about themselves and then smile and nod and tell them, repeat some of what they said back to them. So you go, oh, wow, so you've been to Cancun. What was Cancun like? And guess what? You just made a friend for life. You know, it's really all it takes. Um, and bringing those things into sales to me was kind of inevitable because sales is such a big part of my life, and sales is just the hu. It's just the most human interaction that you can have. Like, this person needs something and you sell it. Just be fricking normal. And what do you know, it, uh, you know, what do you know? All of a sudden they're a lot more likely to want to do business with you.

Speaker A: Sure. Okay. I don't know.

Speaker B: I mean, what do you think about that? Like, do you think. Do you feel like we're oversimplifying empathy here? It's not just about listening, but you're in marketing. Like, what are your thoughts?

Speaker A: Uh, no, I agree. I mean, I have cracked into two different cities at this point via, uh, like, networking or three different cities via networking. Um, and my formula for, you know, kind of getting into the inner circle in a lot of these networking groups and things like that has just to. Has been to, uh, go in and just ask people questions and listen and then also not be afraid to share fun facts and just be a little bit of myself, even if it's like, you know, probably out of left field and out of context for, you know, the group. Um, so, yeah, I mean, people, you know, like to, uh, you know, talk, um, about themselves, which is fine. Um, and if you. You should have an interest. And I, I've always kind of like, you know, spent a lot of time around people who I would say are, you know, further along with me, or even when I was younger, I'd spend a lot of time with, like, people that were older than me and Things like that. So, um, you know, you, you learn a lot. There's always kind of the phrase tossed around of like, you don't want to be the smartest person in the room. But, you know, through those circumstances, um, I am always just, you know, genuinely curious. Um, and I mean, I can go, uh, out on the street and hang out with a homeless person and listen to some fun stuff they say. Um, I've always been, uh, you know, the believer of, like, you never know, like, what sort of interesting stories you're going to hear if you just, like, you know, ask around and, you know, listen to what people say. Um. Um. So, yeah, totally. If you, if you close yourself off from, you know, asking people questions and things like that, then you're gonna miss out a lot on a fun m. Stuff in life.

Speaker B: Yeah. Or you're gonna kind of miss out on life, you know, Like, I like that you just brought up, like, bringing up parts about yourself. I think that's the flip side of the coin is especially if you're working, if you're struggling to build depth of relationship, then you're probably not being very vulnerable yourself. Like, vulnerability is the ultimate icebreaker. Ultimate is you just gotta be willing to share something about yourself, you know? Hi, my name is Brian. I've never been here before. Some of my hobbies are bread baking. I really like to play with the Rubik's Cubes. I'm a huge nerd about, you know, Lord of the Rings and there's some random facts about me or I do this, or, uh, I play the drums. I don't get to play anymore, but I wanted to be a professional, professional drummer in my 20s. Random facts about me. There's a lot of information people know about me because I share it. Because I'm just kind of a open, kind of an open guy. But that's not natural for me either. Like, I'm a pretty by nature. I, I'm. I'm pretty guarded. Like, I don't really love feeling out of control. I'm pretty. Control, uh, is pretty important to me to feel safe. And so you, you gotta, like, like it costs me something to share weaknesses of mine. It's really difficult for me, but I found that if I'm unwilling to do that, then there's like, I've. There's a ceiling, there's a, uh, there's a limit on how deep my relationships with people can go. And if you don't know how to build relationships with other people and network, like, you have no business running a company you know, um, you gotta, you've gotta work on that. So that actually happens to be my mission statement. Feelgood Close's mission statement is ennobling sales culture through empathy and vulnerability. That's, that's all we're out to do is make it a noble profession. And that's, that's the, that's the recipe.

Speaker A: Yeah. You said you were an, uh, entj. Um, I know I have been an ENTJ at points of my life and I kind of bounce back and forth between ENTJ and intj. But kind of the hallmark of both of those personality types is usually a lot of ambition and a willingness to tear yourself down in the pursuit of whatever your goals are. So, you know, like, you know, you said you probably spend a lot of time, you know, doing things that are maybe against your, you know, nature for the sake of your goals, pursuit of your goals, things like that. Um, and for in one of those, mate, just might just be as simple as living a fulfilling life. Might not even have anything to do with business and, you know, stuff like that.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, making life worth it, you know. Uh, I agree. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, well, I did want to do a quick, um, you know, we've talked a little bit about your first 60 days feel good MSP. You know, you're teaching people how to listen, teaching how to be empathetic, defining ICPs, psychographics, demographics, all that stuff. Um, you've been in the channel a little while, um, and have accrued some form of celebrity and level of success, you know, with your business. Um, and, you know, just, uh, having talked with you on and off, you know, throughout the years here, um, it seems like your business has reached maybe a different stage and just, uh, kind of was curious like, what does the future look like for the, you know, Feel Good msp? Have you, you know, reached a point where you're happy with the MSP vertical? Is there another vertical on site? Are you trying to scale up further from here? I guess, like, tell us a little bit about what the future looks like for the Feel Good MSP brand.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, no, we'll definitely be in the channel for. I won't leave the channel until I'm at least five to ten times bigger than we are now. Um, because there's, there's just a lot of need. There's just a lot of MSPs that really, really struggle, uh, to solve a solvable problem. It's just a hard problem to solve, which is creating a sales process that works. So, um, yeah, I'm Very. I'm very bullish on this, on the industry. I'm excited about the industry. I almost left the industry in 2020. I did leave the industry for a year and just did some consulting in other industries and, like, um, I got a bunch of cool logos on my. On my, like, resume during that time. And I really just kind of came back to, like, you know, I feel like managed services is just where I want to be. It's a little bit of a masochistic thing for me, too, to be honest, because you can make way more money in SaaS. You can work, like, some of the stupidest people I know make three times more money than me, um, just because. And they're doing it way easier, you know, uh, it's a hard place to, you know, in. In many ways, it's just a hard place to be for. For a bunch of reasons. But, yeah, I mean, the future of Feelgood is we want to, um. We want to, like, build. We want to deepen our roots and, like, broaden our foundation to be able to more systematically crank out success stories. So it's worth. It's worth noting, like, this conversation has been very, you know, we're talking about, like, emotional human soft skills. But that's really not the core of the experience of my members. That's the DNA that. That from which we've extrapolated the processes. But I know better than to put a bunch of MSPs in a room and be like, let's talk about our feelings. Like, you know, they're not going to get that. That's not what actually moves the needle on the external. However, what we start doing is when we start moving the needle on the external and we go, oh, look, you have perfect, proven scripts. You have an activity plan right in front of you. You know exactly what to do today, but you didn't do it for your sixth day in a row. Why? And that's when the feelings come into play. Like, every Monday, we have a mindset Monday call, and we talk about what do you believe about yourself that's getting in your way? Okay. And what do you believe about your business that's limiting you? Then we talk about the evidence for that belief. We challenge the evidence of that belief, and then we replace limiting beliefs with constructive beliefs or, excuse me, with empowering beliefs. So, like, you know, oh, uh, my business will never grow past this number that's made up. You decided that to be true, but it's only true because you decided it's true. Why did you decide it's true? Well, because my dad never believed in me. Okay, got it. Well, let's replace that belief. How about. Oh, you know, my dad had his demons and he couldn't see his full potential. But, um, I'm not going to let it decide what my full potential is. Oh, that's helpful. All of a sudden we can do something with that. So yeah, I mean sales coaching and consulting is, it's like anything. Like the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. And there's people who are transformational, who have like hardcore transformations in their business because they're willing to pursue transformation internally. I've got one MSP right now. They've been with me, it's the 16th, so they're like 34 days and they hired a sales guy and he start his first day in the company was first day in our program. He's booked four FTAs plus two internal. So six total meetings, four of them outbound. And he's got three closes out of those six deals. He's already paid off his, almost paid off his salary in 30 days. Dude, that's amazing. Yeah, like that's mind blowing. Or like another MSP 90 days in, they've 10 XED what they're paying me in MRR. Like he's over 30,000 MRR that he's closed in 90 days.

Speaker A: A layer of accountability structure and also encouragement.

Speaker B: Yeah, we call it strategy training accountability. That's the framework. Um, if you do those three things, you're upskilling everybody. You're doing it with intentions, you're strategically looking long term. And a part of accountability is mindset accountability. Holding yourself accountable to your toxic internal thoughts. Because if your inner dialogue is like Eeyore, then it doesn't matter how encouraging I am, you're going to keep whining about it. You're going to keep acting like a victim, you're going to keep failing. So we got to like find kind ways to be kinder to ourselves. And honestly that's just success 101. Like that's what I've observed. If you can't, if you can do those things, you're a lot more likely to achieve success. So that's really what we're doing at Feel good is like, okay, make a strategy, create an action plan. Make a syllabus of what training each person needs to upskill them in the appropriate areas. But then you have to like go do the work and then get coached along the way to be like, okay, I failed like this today or this thing didn't work this time. Let's unpack why it didn't work. You just make incremental improvements. That's really it. There's no secret sauce. That's the entire approach.

Speaker A: Okay, awesome. Well, I know you've had uh, a lot of success stories already and um, I've seen that you've been, uh, dare I say, stepping more into the marketing realm recently with uh, some blog posts and SEO and things like that. So uh, I'm sure there's a lot of uh, new and exciting things in store for the feelgood MSP brand and yourself. Uh, and the msps that you serve. Uh, yes. So, uh, we're excited to keep an eye on that. Um, I know we're kind of getting close on time here. Um, and it is Friday and we've probably got all sorts of, you know, fun, fun stuff to do in la.

Speaker B: Um, yeah.

Speaker A: Is there anything I didn't ask you that you'd like to tell the audience?

Speaker B: Oh, I don't know, uh, if somebody really wants something from me, they'll come and find it. I think some of these people are probably sick, uh, of my voice by this point. But um, no, yeah, I mean we're, we have a lot of exciting stuff this year. We're getting organized. We did our first in person event in LA and it was really, really awesome. I didn't expect to like it as much as I did. So we got another one coming up. It hasn't yet been announced, but we're doing one in Toronto. Um, okay. In June. Anybody, uh, listening? That'll be, there'll be more information to come on that. And then we have one that is in Philadelphia, which I cannot announce the partners of that yet, but that's going to be in July. Sneak, uh, preview. So we're doing those and then uh, you know, I'll be at Scalecon if I, uh. Scalecon will be fun. I got a bunch of conferences and stuff coming up, but yeah, I don't know. Follow me. We're really cranking out. We've decided to start giving away way more stuff for free. So we're making larger and larger free assets and we're making more and more of them. And that's the goal is just help people more often and help people get to, you know, the next set of goals. Like I want to be a uh, lower, uh, rung on the ladder to help the like 6 figure msps get to 7 and then when they get to 7, start thinking seriously about like how do we get to 5 million um, in a clean, straight line. You know, that's, that's some of the stuff we want to do. So just follow us, follow me on LinkedIn. It's probably the best place to find what we're doing.

Speaker A: Okay, well, we'll definitely get your website, LinkedIn and all that good stuff linked into the show. Notes. Wanted to say thank you again for coming on the show here today. Um, and definitely be sure to check out Brian Gillette and feel good msp.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, buddy. It was awesome to be here.

Speaker A: All right, thanks for watching, everyone. Uh, Brian Gillette is a interesting guy and is definitely not afraid to give feedback, but does so in a very tactful way. And I think that's what makes him one of the best sales coaches and sales trainers in the channel. Definitely check out the feel good msp. Check out Brian Gillette's profile if you haven't already. And once again, thanks for watching. I'm Andrew Nelson with Torres and Hair Software. And until next time,