Series 6 Episode 11 - Experimentation for retention: Can you test your way to reduced subscription churn?

Speaker A: You're listening to the Big Lift, the podcast of WebTrends Optimize, the CRO solution that enables marketers and developers to maximize the ROI on their digital properties. WebTrends Optimize is a powerful feature rich and easy to use solution, all delivered within a fixed price contract with no additional cost for increased functionality ever. During these podcasts we meet some of the key influencers within the marketing and conversion world to understand their roles and examine their challenges.

Speaker B: In today's negative economic climate, an increasing number of people are looking to reduce their outgoings. Potentially as a result of the uncertainty about the future, there may be the temptation for users to cancel an ongoing subscription, be that for a sports channel, a wine club, a gym membership or a food box delivery. For those companies that offer such services, this could mean losing once loyal, valuable customers. So how can they use CRO to try to reduce, churn and retain their business? Today I'm talking with Danny Betts, CRO lead at Tank, a Nottingham based digital marketing and PR agency, and our own Chris Hood, global Sales Manager here at webtrends Optimize. Welcome Danny. And welcome Chris.

Speaker C: Great to be here again, John.

Speaker D: Hi, John.

Speaker B: Danny, Our, ah, company is already thinking about the potential reduction in subscribers and its impact.

Speaker D: Yeah, there's been a lot of research going into it. Um, the subscription market globally is looking to hit about $1.2 trillion by 2030. So there's been clear growth going on in the industry, but there's a lot of subscription fatigue sitting in. You already can't go online without seeing advertisements for multiple services that will go through your bank statements and try find subscriptions that you've forgotten about and trying to cancel those. So that's something that they really need to be paying attention to in the coming years. A lot of us are tightening our belts at the moment. It's quite a difficult economic climate. So your acquisition costs are going up. You need to start really focusing on retaining the customers that you've got and keeping those while you perhaps go through pricing changes or differences in your service.

Speaker B: Chris, what are your thoughts?

Speaker C: Well, there's certainly a lot of us, I mean, that have ended up on subscriptions that maybe we didn't intend to. And there's uh, certainly in better economic times, and not necessarily, not necessarily better economic times, but in different times during COVID we were signing up to a lot of subscription services because a lot of us had free time. We had a lot of time to sit in front of the TV and look at stuff or we might for example, have uh, Got a food box delivery because it was the best way to spend some time or the best way to make best use of our time. So a lot of us have slipped onto subscriptions that we maybe didn't intend to, but are now eating away our disposable income. I mean, there was an interesting study done by, um, HSBC uk. They had what's called the invisible spending campaign. And they found that people are spending 30, well, saving £34amonth by canceling those unwanted subscriptions. And Danny touched upon it. There's a lot of services, you see now where they're advertising, going to people in the street. What subscriptions have you got? And they don't realize they've got five, six, seven different subscriptions that, uh, are constantly just draining off their funding. People are dropping specifically streaming platforms. We know there's probably too many streaming platforms at the moment and you have to collect them all to get all of the programs that you want to watch. There's the music subscriptions. Your Spotify, Amazon Music constantly advertised to me about getting onto to Amazon Music. You've got your Amazon prime, your delivery options as well. But they found still the average person is effectively wasting 61 pounds a year on subscriptions they no longer use. So although there has been that pain of people saving £34, uh, a month, there's still a lot of margin left to go and a lot left to lose for a lot of these subscription, um, companies as times get tighter.

Speaker B: Yeah, we seem to talk about CRO as well. It's part of the name, isn't it? Conversion, which CRO is absolutely to do with conversion. But surely if we're trying to stop someone canceling a subscription, then a positive income is for them not to convert. So should we call it retention rate optimization? And how do you think that would differ from CRO? Danny, your thoughts?

Speaker D: As far as I'm concerned, I think retention optimization is quite a big part of CRO, or if it's not considered to be part of it, I think it's adjacent. Um, I spend a lot of my time conducting a B tests for our clients and sometimes within that I find myself finding things that stall a journey. This is something that will be really useful in that cancellation journey. Many of the skills that I use for CRO are transferable, so the principles in essence are the same. But I would say that the experience that you're trying to improve is what you'd be targeting instead.

Speaker B: Would you agree with that, Chris?

Speaker C: I mean, we've for long as the industry's existed. It's had a naming issue and an argument about naming and M. People talk about conversion rate optimization, but it's not always conversion that you want to optimize because the easiest way to get 100% conversion is give away all of your products for free. So there is an argument. What do we call this industry? Do we call it experimentation? Do we call it optimization? Certainly when we think of CRO, look, I think it includes a lot of this retention piece. But the interesting thing about the subscription piece and trying to retain people and specifically looking at when they're trying to cancel a journey, we kind of think about experimentation CRO as reducing friction and improving persuasion. Now although that persuasion element is there when people are canceling, we are trying to insert a small amount of friction into the journey. Now it's the right amount. We don't make it really difficult for someone to cancel because although that does great for our KPIs, it causes problems for us down the line and reputational. So it's introducing the right amount of friction, the right amount of persuasion and it's a delicate balance as I'm sure you'll talk about. Um, Danny, because we're going to be looking at different metrics as well. We talk about conversion rate optimization, a two tailed Z test. We're, you know, we're trying to go 95 and above. If we're looking at conversion for a subscription journey, we may be looking in the opposite direction and uh, a chance to be control of 0.04 or something like that. We're trying to go below essentially, aren't we?

Speaker B: But Chris, do you think there's a way that we could monitor the propensity to cancel before somebody actually tries to do so?

Speaker C: Well, these things, they already exist. There's, there's a plethora of tools in the market looking at and certainly some of these bigger companies, people like uh, Netflix will already have these things built in. But even smaller companies will have either in their CRM or in warehouses like databricks, which we've just started looking at, uh, um, integrating with, will have these propensity, these, these models to, to look about what is the likelihood of someone churning. And the interesting thing is if you can pull this data out, uh, an export, an API, something in the data layer, there's something that you can do and I'm sure we'll come on to this later. What can we do to prevent that subscription churn before it even gets to the point where someone's in that subscription cancellation journey?

Speaker B: Danny, do you Agree with that?

Speaker D: Yeah, I completely agree. I'd say it's one of those things where personalisation is becoming massive within CRO at the moment. And if you want to look at your propensity to churn, you really need to be grouping your customers based off their demographics, their behaviors, looking at the time of year that they joined the acquisition offer that they came in on. But a lot of this does also depend on your data maturity, because as those personalization metrics have improved, we need to then be incorporating those properly into a churn model. A lot of the time is the biggest, the biggest predictor in these models is the time spent on the service. Usually you will see people who are maybe loyal dropping off because they're not seeing that perceived value coming out of it. But I think a lot of the problems we hit on as an agency is our clients don't have that data maturity. So what you need to then be looking at is, is past behaviour that you can pull the metrics out of GA4 or perhaps then looking into where they sit, maybe in the country where their spending habits have been before. A lot of the big players, as Chris said, will already have a lot of this in place. But we need to look at also how we can help this with more of the emerging companies and those who don't have as much of a market share.

Speaker B: Now, we've talked about, you know, um, canceling subscriptions based upon economics or not being able to afford it or, you know, the financial, um, situation that's happening at the moment. But, you know, I can think of other things that it could be unsatisfied with a product or service or moving house? Danny, do you think there are any other areas where a, uh, better offering or something like that might be a, ah, might be a way forward, why people are cancelling?

Speaker D: I think it's definitely a large proportion is another rival service that's emerging or offering either a better library, a better, um, food subscriptions, offering better menu, better options. It's so much choice and a lot of the time you don't have the chance to expand your product, but you need to be seen as constantly improving to show your value continuously.

Speaker B: Chris, what are your thoughts? Do you think that's true or do you think that there's too many kind of variables to be able to get a, uh, common sense of how to prevent this from churning?

Speaker C: Well, I think there's a lot of reasons, but there are studies around this. Um, Sherman Studios, for example, they did a study in 2023. They kind of looked at the most common reasons why people cancel. So 36% were looking at budget, and it was a monetary issue, but 23% weren't using the product enough to, uh, justify the kind of money that they were looking to, um, spend. Then you had those who were only looking up to sign 20% to an introductory offer. And I think this is a big, big segment of people because we as people, we fall onto lots of subscriptions. For example, I, um, rolled over my contract on my phone, um, a couple of months back. I had the option to then have Disney plus, have Amazon, um, Prime, maybe Netflix. And you leap onto these subscriptions. They get your credit card, they get your debit card details, and before you know it, you've got to note down when you've got to cancel. So the better ones tell you, but you've got to note down when you've got to cancel this. So there's a lot of people who are on these introductory offers and they're looking to get off. Now, it's a different pitch and a different thing that you're doing for these people than anyone else. You know, for example, price, or it might be someone's looking to move home or they're not getting the product enough. Using a blunt object. And the same reason to stay for every single person is not optimal. It's that personalization piece that Danny spoke about. And getting the right offer to the right person, the right reason to stay, uh, essentially.

Speaker B: Okay, so we've highlighted the fact that we want people to stay in a subscription model. Um, but how do we go about building a customer journey that retains that subscription? In particular, I'm thinking how do you balance the request of the customer to cancel with the need to retain their business without increasing user frustration, which you talked about a little bit earlier. Uh, Danny, what's your thoughts there?

Speaker D: I think this is where the A B testing comes in. Massively having appropriate segmentation on your tests and looking at that user behavior is going to let you know, okay, so people who've clicked this journey, making sure those events are in place so you can tell what people have selected, they're more likely to drop off at this point of the journey and less likely to come back in the future. So you then need to look at your other tools that you utilize within CRO, like hotjar, uh, looking at those heat maps, frustration clicks, looking where people are bouncing, and then balancing those against the metrics that you've captured within your testing tools or within your click events.

Speaker B: That's quite a delicate balance though, isn't it, Chris?

Speaker C: I was going to say Danny. I mean, it's a real delicate balance because we talked about friction and persuasion. There's put in roadblocks in the way, you know, how obvious do I make it to actually find where I'm even going to cancel in the first place? You know, do I hide my cancellation flow? Do I make you call me? Is it all online? Do I have to leap through a load of hurdles or making it so smooth that literally everyone cancels? And literally no thought. You don't say, have you thought about this or have you thought about this solution? Where do you think the balance is of that friction, persuasion equation? Because we've seen where it's gone too far and we think Amazon prime especially, and we saw a lot of noise about potentially their cancellation process having a lot of dark patterns in it. Where's the balance with something like this? Is it something that we can know?

Speaker D: I think it's definitely something that research needs to be placed into. And this is where your user research can come in handy. Sending out an email to customers who have lapsed or maybe customers who have rejoined to ask them how their experience was not only joining the platform, but leaving the platform. You can always utilise customer data and an incentivized survey, you know, offering a gift card or something. You'll get those responses and you'll maybe be able to notice that there are other issues with your platform that you hadn't perceived before. But the balance is incredibly difficult. And it could be that with testing, you're running these things for a little bit longer, you're seeing where those frustration signals are, uh, and maybe which ones you will allow. And that's where you have to start talking about talking to yourself as a company is how frustrated would you like people to be? You need to monitor your social channels, see what people are saying about you. If people are saying that they tried to cancel and it was an absolute nightmare, you need to maybe sit there and think, okay, let's remove one of those blocks. Or if people are saying, oh, I came back because it was a nightmare cancelling elsewhere and your service maybe doesn't have everything that I'm looking for, but I know I can cancel within three clicks online, rather than having to go through four different contact channels.

Speaker B: We discussed earlier that, you know, if you give the service away for free, then obviously you're not going to get any churn at all. But do you think reducing the cost is the only, uh, option that you've got? Or do you think there are other ways of being able to persuade people, as I say, without creating too much friction and without actually chasing them m off completely.

Speaker D: I personally think this is something that your streaming services like Netflix have done fantastically. They leverage their existing content, they leverage the fomo. So when you are going to cancel, they'll let you know. This service is, um, we're having another series coming out of this series that you're looking at. They'll use their advertising and their, you know, what they'll do is they'll leverage how people around you were talking about it. People are getting excited about a program or something new has come on. So you go, oh, I don't want to cancel yet. I need another month. You see this a lot with other streaming services where instead of releasing everything all at once how they might have used to have done, you now have mid season breaks that maybe go on for slightly longer than a billing period, which can seem a little bit insidious. But as a business practice, you're keeping people subscribed for a much longer time and you see this more with weekly releases and with season breaks.

Speaker B: Do you think you could have, you know, you have a kind of a, um, how would you describe it, A cooling off period when you buy something, uh, especially insurance or anything like that, do you think there'd be a cooling off period? Do you think that would work?

Speaker D: I think a cooling off period could potentially work. Especially when you're signing up to something that maybe is like a gym or something. It will give you that chance. But you need to make sure that when you are emailing people to let them know that that period is ending. You need to look into when you're sending those emails where your churn increases with how often you're sending them. Do you send them the day before the period ends or do you send them the week before? It's a lot of user research that needs to go into it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I found, uh, one particular, um, company and it's not in a subscription model, but I found extremely beneficial in making a purchasing decision. Charles Switzer, uh, the shirt company, um, had on their website, I don't know if it's still there, that if you, uh, don't like the shirt or for any reason whatsoever, you've got up to six months to send it back and get your money back. Now do you think that's the kind of thing that should be more open in conversations or online conversations when you're starting to open an account?

Speaker D: I would definitely say so. It's one of those things I think as the Internet is growing, we are looking for that information more. We are more aware of the loopholes that we might fall into with these businesses. And the trust is going. So you need to make sure that you are stating it's easy to cancel. You'll end up with more people signing up. Then potentially you're going to end up with users who may not have signed up in the first place, who could become more loyal in the long term and increase that long term value of a customer.

Speaker B: The other thing I think is important is actually get to know your customer. That kind of, you mentioned it a little earlier, Danny, with regard to personalization. And I think knowing your customers more actually gives you the ability to hang on. I think if you think of it in a social environment, you don't want to choose people off that you're friendly with. You kind of would find a different way or go a different way completely and not want to do anything, which is going to have a negative impact on that relationship. Do you think we'd be able to do that, Chris? Do you think we'd be able to use personalization to keep customers hanging on a bit more?

Speaker C: Well, I think my take on this is. And you touched on price straight away. Price is a very blunt object to solve this problem because not everyone is going to be motivated by price. The people who budget, the people who are looking to cancel the introductory offer and they maybe want a little bit of a smoother, uh, you know, move on to the full price plan, that's fine. We can talk about price, we can talk about discounts, we can talk about calling off periods with these people. But people who are looking to move or people who have cancelled maybe for another reason, going, okay, we'll drop the price is first of all, it's a little bit clothier because you're not actually listening to the reason why someone's cancelling. You know, at the extreme answer, uh, I'm canceling because so and so person who had this subscription has died. Okay, sorry about that. Here's 50% off. Well, that, that's neither here nor there, you know, that's not what we're looking to do. And also you'd be killing margin by offering people lots of money off or three months for no reason at all. So there is this personalization element as you kind of touch upon, um, there and it's understanding why someone's canceling. And the way I've thought about it before is we have guided selling journeys and we've set these up for clients you Know someone's looking to buy a bike. What type of bike you looking to buy? You know, stabilizers, size, what you're looking to try to do to it. And send people down to decision tree. I think there should be a same idea for canceling subscription. Ask someone up front why are you looking to cancel? And start to look at the reasons why someone's looking to cancel and follow them down the decision tree. So I'm looking to move. Okay, well actually you don't need to cancel the plan. If you go here and fill in this, we can transfer your subscription to your new property. And maybe after a month or so you get a month calling off period because you need to get your new devices, you need to move in. Let's do that. If it's okay, it is price or it's an introductory, um, offer or, uh, you know, you go down the price route if it's. I don't think I'm getting value out of this subscription again. As you say, Danny, it's like, okay, we know that you've watched these programs, by the way. Are you aware you're going to miss the next series of videos this program when it comes up in a month's time if you don't renew? So it's creating a complete decision tree

Speaker D: of,

Speaker C: uh, a guided cancellation journey. And the aim is that you want to minimize the number of people who get to that cancellation button. You know, the people who need to get there, let's get them there. But people who we can persuade through the journey. Let's, let's do that. And I don't know, Danny, how would you, I mean, I'm thinking, how would you even go and try to pull something like that together? I mean, imagine you don't go, day one, nothing, day two, it's all there. But how do you even sort of plan that out if you think that's a good idea?

Speaker D: It's one of those things that feels like a mammoth task at the time you're sat there going, I have 20 different reasons to cancel plus a other please inform box. But I think the best way would to be it would be start with those shorter journeys, start with your bereavement, your repeat, um, your duplicate prescription, your duplicate subscriptions. Because with that you've got a journey where you want to be compassionate or there's a very clear outcome that's going to be there. People are going to cancel if it's a duplicate. So you've got those journeys that uh, are maybe only two steps. What's the reason for canceling. Okay, here's your, here's your cancellation. And then build on those into the ones that will take a little bit longer. Go into price. Actually, that's quite simple. You can do offers, but when you get into things like moving, you maybe would want to go into subscription pauses, as you've mentioned. Pauses, I think have been a really powerful tool for subscription companies to maintain customers. It's much better that you take two months off getting that revenue from your customers, then they cancel and, uh, maybe come back six months later or don't come back at all. You want to stay on their mind, you want to stay in their inbox. And I think it will be slowly building out on that decision tree. But just start with the simple things. Start with the shorter journeys.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the things that I'm not a great subscription to TV channels and things like that, but say for instance, if I wanted to

Speaker A: watch the Formula one, well, when the

Speaker B: formula one isn't on and it's getting more and more that it is on, um, I don't particularly want to subscribe to something where actually there's nothing there for me to watch. So it's being able to, I think, tailor some packages as well to be able to make it work with rather than just saying, oh, actually, you know, one size fits all. And here you go. Um, one of the other things is, do you think that other channels such as email or social, which would help build reasons to stay and enhance the value proposition, or are we just trying to get people to the end of their period before we start making a move? Danny, what's your thoughts?

Speaker D: I think this is where you need to be looking at your email open rates. You need to be looking at often a lot of these tools will let you know how often you're sending these emails out, how many times they've been opened, and then comparing that to your CRM, looking at, okay, if we email somebody three times a month, they're more likely to cancel three months down the line. Or if we email them the week before their subscription is about to renew, we are more likely to see them cancel. So you need to then pull in the balance, work with your data. We have so much data that we capture in these tools that people will allow us to capture. We need to utilize it as much as possible. And I think that is a downfall that a lot of companies fall into where in the beginning we just focus on the data capture for new and for people visiting and subscribing for the, for the first period. But Actually, with a subscription, it's your long term value that is the most important, important, it's your long term value. You can spend so much money on your acquisition, but what you need to be focusing on is the clients that you've already got, the customers that you've already got. Because your market share in an industry that is growing as fast as subscriptions, your market share is most likely only ever going to go down. So you need to keep on top of what you have.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with that.

Speaker C: It's always more expensive to acquire a new customer than retain your existing customer. So this is what you've got to look at. You know, there's a whole industry about, you know, we know how much people spend on SEO, ppc, all really valuable tasks and about getting someone into that journey in the first place. But if you can retain those people and drive that long term customer value, you're always going to be better off. Companies that can retain their customers over long term are always going to be at uh, the top of the market, always going to be the best performers. Always going to be those people who are going to ride out those problems, those poor economic periods. They may lose customers, but they're not going to lose as many customers as those people who are only concerned about grabbing as many new customers as they can. So you've got, got to look after who you've got already at the same time as growing that new user base as well. And you'll be, that pays for itself. All of those efforts pay for themselves in the long run.

Speaker B: So I think we've come to the, probably the most important aspect of this whole gamut is that how can you measure the success of customer retention? Because in a CRO world you can actually see the customer converting and buying something or going on to the next or whatever you're measuring. But measuring something which is a negative must be almost impossible. So Danny, how do you think we can actually physically show the people that we're doing a good job in the CRO team to be able to say actually we are, uh, retaining customers because doing nothing isn't measurable?

Speaker D: Yes, definitely. I think when you're doing your A B testing, as Chris mentioned earlier, on a two tailed test, you just have to look at the numbers when it's negative. It's different for when you're testing to gain customers. So this time if you're seeing a negative significance value, it's actually a positive. And as long as you're presenting that data to your stakeholders, well, you can show that you're having a positive retention. But the main factor, and I will constantly harp on about it, uh, is your long term value. It's looking at how long somebody is going to be subscribed. A lot of the time you're not offering many cheaper options to somebody who's already subscribed. It's your cheapest way of keeping a customer. And that's the best way. If you can do a few a B tests, roll them out and they're successful, and then a year down the line you're seeing that people are staying for two, three, four months longer, you're showing success in that way. But the thing is, with any CRO platform or any CRO product, you often only look at maybe 30 days worth of data. So you need to have the breathing space to look at this over a much longer period of time because as that keeps going, you'll have a longer and longer period that you can look at and then you'll have more data to show that. Okay, year on year, we are having an increase in time that a customer will spend with us.

Speaker B: So. So Chris, what's your thoughts around this? Is that just the only way of doing it or is there a much more figurative way of being able to show it, Particularly if you're having to show your boss that you spent your money in the right way?

Speaker C: Well, uh, Dan is certainly right. I mean, short term, we're looking at the short term matrix, we're looking at the conversion rate for that funnel of people who are intending to leave. How many people entered at the beginning, how many people dropped out at the bottom. And you're looking at a different one to an acquisition because one, we're maximizing number, two, we're trying to minimize number. Being of course aware of those guardrail metrics that Danny spoke about. You know, your frustration, whether it's from surveys, customer service inquiries, whether you're looking at, you know, um, rage click scores or customer struggle scores, being aware of those long term, yes, you're looking at that customer lifetime value and however you have that, that model associated with it. But something that's maybe worth thinking about is I've spoken with businesses who it's lead generation and then they pass an experiment or variant ID into their CRM so that they can then track not only that initial does our experiment drive more leads? But actually when we go through the 90 day, uh, sales process with one of our sales reps, does that convert? So you can then reanalyze an experiment 90 days down the line of yes, it introduced More leads. But actually the quality of the leads was not good. We will not implement this experiment. So it's worth thinking, especially with things like databricks and other tools that have got retention models and other things where you've got customer lifetime value. Can we pass an experiment ID or a variant ID so that when you speak to your, when you speak to your boss, you know you've got those initial short term metrics. A year later when you're summing up your experiment year, you could probably turn around and say look, we reanalyzed this experiment. It didn't have a great up, uh, a great drop in the number of people who cancelled. But actually in terms of when we're looking at customer lifetime value, this variant, this experiment had a significant uplift in the lifetime value of our customers. And going back every so often and as any good program should do, re evaluating the experiments, re evaluating the winners and see actually what's happened with our long term metrics associated with the work that we've been doing. So it's always worth and Danny touched on this. It's about collecting data but long term can we pre plan for when we're going to analyze this down the line, collect as much data about the segments, the experiments that people are in and what were the long term effects of what we were doing on customer experience and on the customer lifetime value?

Speaker B: Danny, um, we've talked about people cancelling and hopefully they won't cancel, but obviously a reasonable percentage will cancel. What's the kind of optimal time to re engage with that customer? Because um, you're going to say it depends. Because I know most people say it depends when I ask them a direct question like that. But you get to the point of saying, oh, I'm canceling. Do you think you could build a re engagement strategy based upon that decision tree of why they've left to be able to re engage over a period of time? So for instance, if they've moved house and they didn't go with you, perhaps it could be six months down the line. Perhaps if it's a bereavement, obviously you can't do anything, uh, it's gone. But it could be that for instance that somebody hasn't been watching. And I gave the example of um, Sky Sports and using formula one, perhaps the timing when that comes back on. Do you think there are people that are building those kind of re engagement plans?

Speaker D: Definitely. And I think this is something that you can see across usually your television subscription models. You'll see that a lot of Their programs will their main key programs that cause a lot of stir and have a lot of a cultural impact. They will usually release at the times when they're seeing a drop in customers. So with Netflix, you'll often see large releases happening in around October, November time, which is when people are more likely to be sat at, ah, home. People are more likely to be staying in with the colder days coming in, more likely to be sat watching telly. So this is where you almost fall onto the psychology side of CRO, because you can build this out because you know it is always going to get darker in the autumn, it's always going to be darker through the winter. So people are more likely to do these things and building it based off those models. So if somebody said that it's cost or there's not anything new for them, you go, right, we're into that period now. They may be cancelled three months ago. This is a perfect time to reintroduce them. And then we can also leverage these values of you're going to be missing out, your friends are going to be talking about these programmes, you've watched this before, you're not interested to see how it ends. I think it's slightly more difficult when you look at gym subscriptions throughout the year, because the only real boost you see on that is you'll have your summer boost and you'll have your New Year's boost. So it's then making sure that you're hitting people before they would subscribe to another service. So you need to be looking slightly before they want your service again. So if you're looking for the January gym, you maybe want to start targeting people in November, so you're on their Monday mind when they start thinking about that come January.

Speaker B: That's very true. Well, guys, thank you very much for your time. We're just coming to draw this to a close. I think in the next few weeks, when the, um, budget comes out from the Chancellor, we'll all be jumping on our keyboards again, trying to be able to work out how we can retain as many customers who are looking to able to cancel their subscriptions over the next coming weeks. But for now, it's been great. It's been very stimulating. I think a lot of companies will start looking at this over the next few weeks and maybe months. But it's something that really needs talking about because it's not actually been, um, much on the air up until now anyway. So, guys, thank you very much. I think it's been, uh, a wonderful time and we'll we'll no doubt speak about this topic in the future. Danny, bye for now.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker B: Cheers. Chris. Bye for now.

Speaker D: Bye.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker D: Sam.