ITA Group Research Reveals Powerful Loyalty Drivers (#787)

Speaker A: Foreign

Speaker B: hello and uh, welcome to let's Talk Loyalty and Loyalty tv a show for loyalty marketing professionals. I'm Paula Thomas, the founder and CEO of Let's Talk Loyalty and Loyalty TV where we feature insightful conversations with loyalty professionals from the world's leading brands. Today's episode is hosted by Bridget Blaise Shammay, former president of the AA Advantage program, the award winning travel rewards program of American Airlines. Bridget is a global C suite executive and is currently advising VC backed startups in loyalty, travel and payments. Enjoy.

Speaker C: Welcome everyone to this edition of let's Talk Loyalty and Loyalty tv. Our guest today is Chris Jones, senior Vice president of uh, customer engagement solutions for the ITA Group. Based in the United States and 100% employee owned, ITA is a global engagement and multi consulting company that helps clients improve business performance by both influencing and strengthening customer and employee behavior and resulting relationships through experiences, incentives, loyalty programs, research and technology. Our conversation today will center around ITA Group's latest research titled Quantifying Customer Loyalty's Hidden Drivers. This session promises to be educational and inspiring. Enjoy and let's get started. Welcome Chris to Let's Talk Loyalty and Loyalty tv.

Speaker A: Thank you. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker C: We're delighted, really excited and really appreciate your being with us here today. So, as we kick off, um, the podcast itself, we like the audience to have a little bit of an understanding of our guests and we have just a few, um, few kind of inter questions accordingly. Um, and our first one is a traditional question, um, really driven by the founder of let's Talk Little Tipala. And that is share with our listeners, please. Um, a nonfiction book that has influenced you, um, your professional style, your leadership, how you think about customer loyalty, et cetera.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'm going to tell you about a recent book I've been reading that's been really, uh, exciting for me. It's actually called How Great Ideas Happen. It's a relatively recent book, but it's a book rooted in research about how innovation takes place. And I think it's really relevant for businesses in general, not only for loyalty programs, but one of the things I love about it is having worked, uh, in consumer products for the first two decades of my career, it was all about innovation. And I think a lot of people have this idea that innovation is like the eureka lightning bolt moment and that only certain people can do it. And this book, how Great Ideas Happen, really sort of tries to demystify it and say if you have a deliberate approach and you scan and you synthesize great ideas can come out, uh, of lots of different teams or individuals. So I really love the motivation and accessibility this book, uh, suggests for creativity and innovation. So it's been, it's been exciting sharing that with my team. Very recently in fact.

Speaker C: Well, great. Well, thank you for sharing that with our listeners here today. And so building upon this, um, tell us a little bit more about your background and really what has led you to this, this position with the ITA Group.

Speaker A: Sure. Um, I spent most of my career as a client, um, working with engagement agencies or global agencies and so forth. Five years ago I joined ITA Group, which is a global engagement agency. And we work really across different spaces. Experiential events, customer loyalty, like we're talking about today, but also sales and distribution channel incentive programs, and last but not least, employee engagement programs. And so when I joined ITA Group, it was an exciting opportunity for me to take what I learned as a consumer products leader and as a retail loyalty leader and work with a broad set of businesses and brands to help them m enhance their program, to help them build, redesign or relaunch their programs. And so to us, it all comes down to motivating people to take new behaviors. And so the science that we have behind that really works across all those parts of our business. And I'm excited to, uh, help work with clients to bring those to bear within their brands and businesses.

Speaker C: Yeah, it really does kind of zero in about, you know, understanding what is relevant to the customer and then, you know, get it in market. So, um, love certainly this backstory of yours leading up to this, this executive position you have with the ITA Group. Um, okay, before we get started though, last question. What is, are your favorite loyalty programs?

Speaker A: Well, I would say I have two. One is purely as a participant, I'm a big fan of United's Mileage plus program. And um, really the reasons why I think their app is quite capable. I think it allows me to dig deep if I want to dig deep and say, where was that plane that's supposed to be here coming from and what's going on? So I think they've really gotten into the minds of frequent travelers and said what would be helpful to them. And I also think that program does a good job keeping its promises. And what I mean by that is they don't just say, you'll have access to these benefits. I actually feel and receive those benefits regularly and consistently as a frequent flyer. And so we're going to talk later probably about how value and ease come together. That's a program that I participate in as a. As a consumer. I think it's quite, quite good. Um, if I were to say kind of as a developer and builder, I would say that I've got a lot of fondness for Casey's Rewards, which is a program that I helped launch and create from scratch when I was a retailer and on the client side. And what I really love about that program is we dug deeply into the psyche and the mindset of Casey's customers. The people came in the store every day. And that business, if you're not familiar with it, has now nearly 3,000 convenience stores across the U.S. but one thing that's unique about it is that brand lived in communities of less than 5,000 people and has been that way since the beginning of time. So nearly half of their stores are in communities of 5,000 people or less. And we got into, like I said, the psyche of those people in those communities. And they told us that one of the things that was most essential in their life, in their world, was the local elementary school. They felt like that was a barometer of vitality in their community and longevity for their community. So that's why we designed our program to make it possible for people, communities to donate their points in the form of cash to their local elementary school. So that's kind of a program that I'm excited about, and it just really does what we're talking about, which is connect emotionally with the consumers.

Speaker C: Well, that is a great story. And. And as we really reflect on it, communities so much are in our country centered around the schools. And for m you all to really zero in on that, as you thought about a program for a retailer, um, I think just so on point, and I don't think it's common. So well done. I love it.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks. I mean, we're at ita group. We're big believers that if your brand isn't woven unmistakably into your program, I don't just mean the name, I mean the signature experiences that people have with your program, then we haven't done the brand or the business of service. And so that's a good example of where the brand is unmistakably woven into the Casey's rewards program. And that's something we do, uh, with our clients. And so I'm really passionate about that. Having been a brand marketer and with mars and consumer products and candy and pet food over decades, you know, it's kind of. It's in my blood to say if the brand's not present, we haven't done our job.

Speaker C: Well. That's a great example and great tips to remind our listeners on what matters and when you're standing up, uh, programs to drive engagement and loyalty from your customers. Um, so thank you for that. Okay, so today we are centering this conversation about some really great research that I have read and reread. I think it's so good, not very long, but it's pretty packed with some great insights. And this research, um, is titled Quantifying Customer Loyalty's Hidden Drivers. And it's built upon some research just prior to that titled Transforming Customer Loyalty Programs. So I encourage listeners to read both of these because they really do, um, build upon each other. Um, but really what the former zeroes in on the piece that we're talking about today is how to transform a loyalty program into a true engine for growth. So the previous research confirmed that providing functional value that you've already alluded to, that is clear value to customers and ease of access to it, so it's relevant to the customer and it's easy for them to go and realize that benefit. It is essential for their advocacy. Your latest research reveals that functional value alone is no longer enough in this very cluttered, hyper competitive market. What has changed, Chris?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I think we as marketers and loyalty professionals know that our consumers time and focus is finite and it's fleeting. And so the notion that we would continue to bombard them with facts and figures to convince them is kind of, ah, an acronym. We need to really focus on a feeling, a sentiment. And I know sometimes marketer like oh, it feels right and that's enough. And as a, you know, recovering marketer for most of my career, I'd say yeah, we love that. But when we can show that it's quantitatively impactful, that it's driving behaviors and those behaviors result in financial benefits, that's where we want to live. And so I think what we would say is that while people are engaging their time and attention in these programs, they still crave that human connection. And you might say, well, that seems kind of antithetical human connection with a loyalty act app. Well, the loyalty app is just the medium, right? And what consumers are looking for is do they feel motivated, do they feel appreciated? And that's one of the things we'll share more about in a little bit. But I think, um, if brands say don't just worry about shifting, you know, your business from competing for attention, think about how you're building a deeper relationship and that can be manifest in the loyalty program. And that's really one of the things that we, uh, believe deeply in. It's proven out in our research, and it's one of the ways we work with clients.

Speaker C: So it's really like what you've mentioned here, connecting emotionally with your customer, that the brand promise delivers in a way that's consistent, that's relevant, that's easy, and that really is the quantifiable piece that this research has really gone deep on, that it does matter that your customers have a skip of the heartbeat when they see their brand or interacting with your employees, um, et cetera. So, you know, it's a sense that customers do not feel like a number. They may recite their membership number to you, but they don't feel like a number.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's the key. I agree.

Speaker C: So with emotional connection, um, you know, all this helps brands break through the competitive clutter. What evidence is there that emotionally connecting with customers improves business performance?

Speaker A: Well, you know, I was talking a few minutes ago about kind of my career as a marketer. And like, we like to lean into. We drove emotional connection. And I think when we do that as marketers and stop there and say, good, emotional connection achieved, we're kind of doing our own discipline a disservice. Right. Because what we really want to do is we want to show that that emotional connection resulted in meaningful and quantifiable outcomes for our brand and business. And so that's what's genuinely proven out in our research. So we're measuring customers intent to visit, to spend more, and to bring competitive share to the company whose loyalty program we were quantifying and evaluating. And what we saw is that when you move from this purely transactional mindset to one that fosters this sense of motivation and appreciation, you get this multiplier. And that multiplier is that if people say, you've got. Yeah, functionally, you've got good value and it's easy to use, that's great. But it's ideal when you add the emotional connection. And when people are emotionally connected and they feel that your program has value and ease, they're eight times more likely to visit. And perhaps even more interesting is they were dramatically more likely to advocate for your brand and for your loyalty program. That proved out in the data, because they were also spending about a third more than customers who only realized kind of the functional benefits, but didn't have that emotional connection to the brand that we were studying.

Speaker C: So these are clearly numbers that are not on the margin. These are very distinguished and quite lofty. So really, it underscores the point that it matters how the brand makes the customer feel. And as you have said, when they feel motivated and they feel appreciated, it's almost like the sky's the limit on what can be the quantifiable returns to the brand. So really, it's not optional anymore, now, is it, Chris?

Speaker A: No, I mean, it's. It is, um, it is essential. I don't want to call it table stakes, because I do think table stakes are part of what we talk about. Like, is it easy to enroll? Can I see my status? Do I know where I stand? Those are indeed table stakes. But it is, as we talked about a little while ago, those signature moments where it's like, wow, only Chick Fil a would do this, Only North Face would do this, only BMW would do this. And, and it's not just that brand did something nice for me. That brand did something relevant and they did something that actually amplifies what the essence of those individual brands are. It's not just a random sort of, uh, could fit anywhere kind of action. And that matters.

Speaker C: That's right. Again, as you've mentioned, you know, it's deep inside the psyche of the brand and the brand promised to the customer and it's delivered with ease because that is what the brand stands for. And the employees are trained and, and they're fully aware and they're on board and they're even being measured against such delivery. All really important stuff. What other proof did the research reveal that emotional connection is not a soft secondary benefit?

Speaker A: Well, um, one of the things that we really set out to do was we wanted to quantify it, as I've mentioned. And so we didn't just say, looks like it's positive. We really committed through our research team to decompose the contributors to that 8 times multiplier. And so what we learned is that, um, we first saw that, um, there were quantifiable differences, quantifiable differences between the behaviors of customers who felt benefited versus burdened and benefited customers. Who said, your program has a lot of value and it's easy to use. Burdened consumers were people who said, I don't know if there's a lot of value here and, or. And it was hard for me to get that value. It took too long to earn my first reward, or you maybe jump through a bunch of hoops to validate or to confirm my purchase. Those benefited customers. We quantified how much more they were bringing to those brands. We then said, because we knew that foundation of Value and ease and how benefited or burdened customers contributed differentially. We then could layer on the quantification of what it meant if a customer or consumer was emotionally connected or disconnected. And so we literally built the model to mathematically decompose those. And so I think we learned a lot about it. It's not just. Again, I want to reemphasize this saying, this seems really cool. We're saying, no, no, here's the percentage contribution from each of those elements because we had thousands of consumers across a number of industries and programs.

Speaker C: That's right. I mean, there's dimension to this. And you know, it's. It does, it does. It takes effort here by the brand to make this happen. But, you know, the proof as well in this quantitative thing here. Um, and again, encourage our listeners to get on it, if you're not already. Um, so you have shared with our audience the importance of connecting emotionally with customers and the quantifiable upside of doing so. Please break down what motivation and appreciation mean in practice and why are they the missing pieces for many brands?

Speaker A: Well, first, let me talk a little bit about kind of the headlines of what motivation feels like or is expressed by consumers in our study. So motivation is partly about meeting customers where they are. That could be meaning omnichannel. That could be the way they want to be communicated. Um, but meeting them where they are is really important. That's motivating to consumers. Having clear and relevant calls to action is also an important part of m. Motivation. When the consumer feels like they're having consistent experiences, that's another dimension of motivation. What drives motivation? And ultimately, when your brand and the consumer have a sense, the consumer has a sense that their values and your brand's values are aligned. That's motivating to consumers. Go back to the example we were talking about on Casey's. Those consumers would say, wow, these people care about my local town the same way I do. So we had that motivation for consumers. So that's kind of the, the, the, the kind of headlines of what motivation is on the appreciation side. I think we all tend to kind of know that word kind of sort of in our normal vernacular. But I think what it means is being deeply recognized and valued as a consumer, not to be confused with the value they get as a consumer participating in the program. But when they see things like, um, it's consistently personalized. Now, I'm not talking about the personalization of, you know, insert Bridget's name here. Yeah, we've all been doing that for decades. That's not what we're talking about. What we mean is the things that I send you, Bridget, as a consumer, are not things you would look at and go, I never bought that. I don't care about that. Why would they think I would need that? Relevance and salience are two of the hallmarks of people feeling that it's personalized. So they don't look at it and go, wow, they've thought about me. They just almost go, they get me. And it's that sense of they get me that matters.

Speaker C: I think you're zero on something that I really have a strong view on is how personalization reflects respect of, uh, the customer's time. You sent them something that matters to them versus wasting their time. And I think you really drive a good point of distinction of we've been saying insert name for 20 plus years, but really making it personalized to understand what matters to this customer is where you go and make it, ah, a relevance and of their time worth consuming it. So great points that you're making for our listeners. So thank you. Um, what did the research reveal on how customer experiences, how they experience motivation and appreciation in their interactions with the brand? And how should listeners interpret these simple terms of motivation and appreciation?

Speaker A: Well, first, let's just underscore what you and I were just kind of in agreement about, which is personalized is kind of at the top of the list, but not their name. But unique offers unique access that's rooted in their behavior and preferences and psyche, not just their name. So personalize is one of the ways we start. There's a lot to be said for surprise moments, and surprise and delight moments can be some of the best ways to make signature experiences that are of and from the brand. Right. So if you're brand X and you're sending something that is irrelevant for what your brand stands for, it might be nice to receive a gift, but it's not amplifying your brand, your, uh, ethos as a company or an organization. And so sending a gift to a consumer's home or a gift for service recovery, or just kind of something in the moment, they weren't surprising. This coffee's on me. I know that sounds cliche, surprise and delight, but it is alive and well. And I think as consumers today more than ever are craving tangible, as the kids say, IRL experiences. You know, this is happening in real life. This isn't just a virtual thing. This isn't a digital thing. And I think one of our philosophies at ITA Group is lean into yes, the foundation of technology and digital experiences. But amplify and separate yourself from competitors through, in real life, real experience, tangible experience. So gifting could be a way you could do that. Um, you know, think about meaningful connections. Um, I know many people have heard the stories from Chewy, but we have people on our team who pets have passed away and Chewy says donate that food to a local shelter. And some of our team members receive flowers from Chewy when their pet passed. And so those are the kind of things that brands who get it, and I think Chewy is a brand who gets it will do to have those meaningful connections. And you know, ultimately, I think when you have a customer first approach and you're basically anticipating needs versus waiting for a customer to ask or request or do X, um, I think those are really meaningful and important too. So there's some simple principles that I've just shared. Now obviously in practice, that's where the rubber meets the road. How do you execute that gifting? How do you fulfill that reward? How do you, um, deliver that experience consistently? So, you know, that'd be something we should chat about too, is kind of the role that team members play as we keep going here.

Speaker C: Yeah, I, you know, clearly as I listen to you articulate, it's the role of uh, data and patterns and then delivery, as you mentioned. And some of that's going to be through tech and a lot of it's going to be through humans. Team members cannot overlook this in this day of uh, so many brands trying to be um, tech forward. I'm going to be as much customer serve through automation where I think they miss an enormous opportunity by removing the human element. So, um, it's good stuff. Good stuff. As we continue this, this through our interview here. Okay, so there was one more driver, a big one of emotional connection that's revealed in the research and that is reward redemption. Right. The one thing that customers really determine, I'm joining this program, I'm going to conform my behavior because the other end of it is a reward that I find relevant enough that I joined your program. Tell us about the learnings of this through the research.

Speaker A: Yeah, this is another case where, um, we all would say, oh yeah, rewards matter. And we're not talking about that kind of surface level understanding what we did is we dug beneath it and we said, by how much does a consumer's pattern shift once they've had the ability to redeem something in the program? What we learned is that redeeming rewards in the loyalty program, in terms of program Design is potentially the most important factor to drive emotional connection related to the program. Now, as you just rightly said, there's a lot of ways to drive emotional connection. You know, the interactions I have with personnel, um, the reliability of the product itself. But within the program, redemption is one of the things that drives the most connection. It drives people feeling benefited. Remember I talked about benefited customers versus burdened customers. That's a thing that really is highly associated with feeling benefited. And so we found that speed of redemption matters. So the sooner a brand can get a customer to redeem something from the loyalty program, the sooner they start feeling benefited and appreciated and benefited and appreciated drive that sense of connection. And so basically, if you look at our research, if you have initially valuable customers whose behaviors begin to wane, one of the first things we'd recommend is I don't care client what your award redemption schedule does. Find a way for those early promising customers and pull their first redemption forward. I don't care if you say, you know what it costs 10,000 miles, I'm going to let them have it for 7,000 miles. Because the value to your business and brand over the long term far outweighs that tiny gap of the additional value you gave them. And so what happens is when you do that, you'll basically take that out of reach redemption and make it a special offer. And it drives customer connection. And we know that when that happens, the behaviors amplify.

Speaker C: Um, great tips. I love the idea of, you know, move something forward in a one off that's going to feel very personalized to that customer, even though you may be doing it from others as well. But they are like, gosh, they're doing this for me and it's a 30% percent reduction. And yes, they get that back endless times over through their lifetime value to you. And I love this so much. So, um, together, how does, um, the emotional connection and reward redemption influence the entirety of the loyalty cycle?

Speaker A: Well, I think one kind of interesting and maybe simple way we could talk about is that emotional connection can be a great condition coming out of your last visit. If we're talking retail as an example or your last experience, um, but redemption is actually a powerful predictor of their next interaction. And so great. The emotional connection was successful here, but it doesn't always predict the very next visit. But redemption was a high predictor of the next visit, the next purchase. And when you think about running a loyalty program, I can't think of a better virtuous cycle. Create the connection in this experience. Accelerate the next Visit the next purchase, the next engagement through that kind of appreciation and redemption.

Speaker C: So that's an interesting point because some of the programs, and, uh, mostly in travel perhaps, um, it's a little more monolithic. They're pretty lofty sizes of redemption levels that take time to get there. But the point you keep making, which I completely agree with, is the velocity of realizing the value back to the customer and really how one needs to be thinking about that, but still maintaining, you know, the pricing integrity of the redemption, again in the travel space. But what can you do to speed up so that there's more redemptions? Because the business case proves out that the more there are, the more they keep coming back. The more they keep coming back, the bigger the quantifier value is to the brand. So, um, I love all of this is. Is really how I tie it in a bow. Um, okay, so let's just cut down to the chase here. Which brands, according to Chris, are doing a great job of emotionally connecting with their customers?

Speaker A: Well, I'll stop talking about Casey's because we've kind of wore that story out. But I'd say that's one where they say, okay, this is a great connection. And people are fervent advocates of the pizza they get from their local gas station or convenience store. At Casey's, if you're not from the Midwest, you probably don't understand that the math doesn't compute. But Casey's is like the leader in pizza, and it's because of that emotional connection for those reasons we talked about. If I go beyond my own personal experiences, I think a brand that does it really well is, uh, North Face. So North Face has a mindset about adventure and about discovery. And the North Face program, when you check into a national park, you can actually get points in the loyalty program. You haven't bought anything from North Face, but that's actually a great. A way to show we have common values, we care about the same things. And I want to just acknowledge your adventurous spirit, the way our brand embraces that adventurous spirit. So those are two that I think do a, ah, really nice job. And remember what I said earlier. Is it of the brand? North Face has got it. It is of the brand. It is unmistakably of North Face. Right. Um, why would BMW award you for checking in at a national park? Right. It doesn't make sense. They could do that in a program, but it doesn't fit with the brand. And North Face, I think, is figure that out. And it's pretty compelling.

Speaker C: No, I think you hit on a point about adjacencies, and, you know, sometimes they're obvious and sometimes they're not so obvious, but you really do have an obligation as the brand. Think about that which is beyond your core proposition that matters to your customers. Um, and, you know, your example here about North Face and earning points going into one of our many great parks, One of my favorites is, um, Gap. The Gap family of brands made available to its loyalty program members early access to the White Lotus episodes. And so I wouldn't. I mean, you know, I know the Gap has taken a position that fashion is entertainment, so they will. I think they would argue that is an adjacency, but I think it's really incumbent on brands to think about what is that the nth position over, above, or around me that matters to my customer that's not right in front of my face. So love this example. Thank you. So let's now talk about how these brands are measuring success tied to this. And what I mean by that is how can organizations quantify emotional connections, impact on revenue retention and customer lifetime value?

Speaker A: Well, probably, as a lot of our fellow loyalty practitioners would already agree and know, the magic of loyalty is moving beyond those vanity metrics. And it's not just about enrollment and active members is nice. Of course, we monitor that and measure that and assess that. But if you really want to get beneath it, um, we've got to look for the metrics that measure that level of emotional connection and how it correlates to revenue or retention or engagement or lifetime value. But again, that can sort of become a little bit esoteric, like, okay, lifetime value. One of the things that we work very hard on is to, when it's relevant, focus on the immediate impact of the stimuli and the sentiment. So if someone receives an offer, engages in the offer, participates the incentive, receives a gift, gets access, like you did to the White Lotus, uh, pre premier early, whatever that is. And by the way, I'd say access is a huge motivator and sign of appreciation. So I'm right there with you. But what we did is we actually calculate and measure and quantify the reduction in days to the expected next visit, if it's a retailer or resulted in the increase in spend over their expected spend from receiving that stimulus. Which is really to say that those behaviors speak louder than just the vanity metrics. Did I move the needle? It reminds me of my advertising days on the Snickers brand. You know, as the global leader of Snickers, um, the brand, um, we used to talk about. There's no such thing as advertising wearing in. If you don't have impact in the short term, it's really not likely to have impact in the long term. And I think that's true for loyalty. If people say I sent them offers, they didn't respond to this offer. But I know in 90 days, the cumulative effect of the psyche of sending all these offers over 90 days, they're going to start doing it then. We just don't see any evidence of that. So we're big believers in test and learn and demonstrable impact in the short term, and that will drive the longer term. Lifetime value, whatever your metric might be.

Speaker C: Excellent point. Because 0 times 0, 0 times 1, 0 times 3 still get you to 0. So I think another great set of points that you've just shared with our listeners. Um, so while the proof that investing and achieving emotional connections with customer is very convincing, there are many brands that have still not achieved it. What is holding them back?

Speaker A: Well, um, I would say it's always situational. That's why we work with our clients strategically to say, before we start taking action, let's look at what's going on. But there are some themes. Um, one of them, I would say is if you have low value in what you redeem or low levels of people who are redeeming, this goes back to what you were asking about and we talked about a few minutes ago. Redemption is a big cue for success and commitment in the program. The other one you also mentioned, and I think we should come back to this weak frontline engagement. If the people in your front line are either delivering an experience, forget about the program for a minute. If they're delivering an experience that's so inconsistent with the brand you're trying to be in your program, it can almost kind of dampen it or cancel it out. And so if you don't have that engagement, whether directly with the program or even around the program, but not directly about the program, that can really be a challenge for programs. And I think sometimes we overlook some of the key drivers of engagement that we talk about is the value. There was the ease there. You know, interestingly, when I talk about value and ease, um, it sounds like they're on a balanced scale. But the reality for our listeners is that value is dramatically more impactful on people feeling benefited than ease is. Ease is probably the closest thing to table stake. But getting those right are some of the things that maybe hold clients back.

Speaker C: So not to, um, be too, you know, dry about this, but one can even think about you know, redemption as an asset and employees as an asset and other key drivers of engagement as an asset. And you really get your head around. You want your assets to perform, and once they perform, you know, they can return value. And I. I think, you know, it's just important that they all are forming and all working together that can then drive into that emotional connection. But those are all very, in many ways, straightforward points that are solvable and controllable by the brand. Are any of these particularly silent killers of program, though? Any of them in particular?

Speaker A: Well, let's spend a minute and talk about Frontline employees, because I do think that's an, uh, important piece. And if we use kind of the analogy of electricity, there are things that are conductors and help it flow, and there's things that are insulators and prevent it from doing what it's possible to do with electricity. And I think if Frontline team members can either be a conductive element of the electricity and the power in your loyalty program, or it can be an insulator and prevent it from having its full impact or its full power. And so I would say, does the team, first and foremost, act in concert with the, uh, program's tone and matter and intent? With. With the brand's tone in matter of intent? If the team's indifferent, you know, the brand and the program are going to feel indifferent. Um, if the team's talking about the benefits of the program, um, it's not just about saying, you know, hey, are you in the program? In fact, going back to my Casey's example, we learned very early on that our team, because we were training 40,000 frontline team members to engage customers in the program, and we were having him ask a question. Are you a member of Casey's Rewards? And I, uh, want to reveal that we were totally wrong in asking that question, because what's the answer to that question? That's most easy, no. And then I move on and go about my day. So we very quickly said, gosh, we're not getting the enrollment we want to get by asking people if they're a member. Um, what we said instead was, um, would you like to get free pizza, coffee, or fuel? And no one said no to that. And so just those subtle things are the difference between your front line being the conductor of the power of the electricity, that program versus an insulator of that power. And so, not surprisingly, very few people said, no, I don't like things for free. And so that unlocked new potential in the way we enrolled and engaged around the program. So I Think Frontline team members could be a silent kill of your program if you're not attuned with what they are and aren't doing for the brand and related to the program.

Speaker C: Yeah, those are rich findings. I mean, you know, you just got to make it easy and clear for the front line to engage and why it matters to the brand and why it matters to them. So great stuff here. So we're now at a point where we do want to talk about technology. And, you know, what role do you think, um, AI, data platforms, et cetera, will play or are playing in enabling and scaling emotional connection?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it sounds maybe counterintuitive to say technology and AI will enable emotional connection, but I think what we believe in our tools and platforms is that AI is going to be very valuable for enabling greater scale and stronger nuance. So when we talked about relevance, when we talked about, um, um, making sure that it seems salient to the consumer, you know, I wouldn't buy this thing. Why are you sending me an offer? AI to me is just going to increase the precision, the agility, and the, uh, quantifiability with which we can actually deliver those more personalized and relevant offers. So it won't just be the number of ideas your team can envision or evaluate, but it can have the potential to do as many bespoke things for consumers as your tools, algorithms, or machine learning can identify and do it at scale. So I don't think it's like a, it can't be emotional. I'd say it can be, but the emotion is related to, let's say you had 20 segments of customers and you did things uniquely for them. Now we have 1 million segments of customers because it's in their behavior and motivating them, not motivating a group of a thousand or a million. So I think that's the role that AI can play in, uh, these tools and platforms and programs moving forward.

Speaker C: Well, what I have been hopeful for, I don't know, a couple of decades now that we can get to 8 billion segments. Right?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Everybody on this earth has a segment of one and it's all about them. And they love it and they act upon it and everybody wins. So that's my continued hope. And listening to you gives me the hope that it's actually there on the offing for us. Um, so we've talked a smidge about tech. Let's talk a little bit about org design and how that helps or hinders brands from really the, the winning combination of approach, providing customers, the Functional value and the emotional connection.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, I would say this is just Chris's opinion. I'm not as convinced, kind of personally, that it's as much about organizational design. And some people might say, no, it's all about organizational design. And where does loyalty report and how is it structured? What I would say, and I believe pretty fervently, is that what I do think matters is that regardless of org design, when your organization, not the loyalty organization, but the total business organization, leans into this idea that loyalty is actually everyone's business. And loyalty programs are business moving tools. They're not just a marketing campaign engine. That, to me, is going to supersede anything you might or might not do with organizational design. And so this idea that we have a business moving tool is the kind of work we do with our Krispy Kreme UK client. We're not just talking about the loyalty program. We're talking about how this program is at the heart of moving their business forward today, this week, this quarter. And I think that's the mindset that's really the most helpful for having a successful loyalty program.

Speaker C: Agreed. Um, I mean, I'm just really even writing down a lot of what you have to say. I think it's all really good and on point. And so brands are underway or want to be underway with ensuring they provide the functional value and connect emotionally. But the reality is, across any industry, I don't care how big your margins are, resources are finite. What would you suggest to our listeners on, um, where to prioritize the start?

Speaker A: Yeah, so one of them we've already talked about, and that is if you have opportunity to find high perceived value but low actual cost. Accelerators of redemption. You know that scenario we were talking about, like, you know, your travel example, cost 10,000 miles to fly to this place. Let this customer whose behavior seemed to be emerging in a positive manner, have it at 8,000 miles. Those are great things to do, and I know they cost resources, but as you know from your background, in the overall scheme of things, that's an investment worth making. You don't have to go outside of your budget to do it. You just have to kind of think differently about the resources you do have, um, and that virtuous cycle will emerge from that. The other big thing is, I would say, absolutely test and learn. Test and learn is like the biggest enabler of uncovering gems within programs. We see it consistently. Um, not only is it the way to find the most effective tools, techniques, strategies and tactics to accelerate the behaviors, but we found it's also the key to identifying what financial benefits you might be leaving on the table. You know, with one of our clients, when we're doing Test and Learn, we discovered that some of the impactful offers they were giving to their best customers could, uh, have the exact same quantity impact with 30% less investment in the discount. By just changing the words we use to describe the discount. Instead of saying save x percent, we said save $10, just as an example. And save $10 was less of a discount than 50%. And it actually drove the bottom line and top line. So it's like everybody's a winner. We discover those things through test and learn. So I'd say, don't worry that you're going to mess something up. Just manage risk and impact in a test and learn kind of a controlled scale way. And that often unlocks a lot of possibilities. Um, you'll find money, and I think you'll both do that and identify some big impact levers as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think, you know, test and learn needs to be a requirement, not optional. And I don't think I'll ever forget one of the conversations I had with the CEO of a company, public company, uh, at the time it was between it and Apple as the most valued company in the world. The CEO told me, we test and learn every single thing about our business because prior to adopting this aggressive, rigorous test and learn, we found we were 90% wrong. And it was humility. With humility, they approach their customers. And I just think you're underscoring again the importance, uh, you know, get over yourselves, you don't know. And allow your customers to participate on that learning journey about what is relevant and what will be impactful to them. And you might find you may be able to do it cheaper than you thought, um, because Test and Learn will reveal that. Okay, great stuff there.

Speaker A: I think that's right. One thing I would add to your point there, which I love. It's great to hear. I was afraid you're going to go down another path. Like they said, we don't need a test learn, because I've run into that as well. People say, hey, we did test and learn in 2025, so now that we know everything, we don't need to do that. I'm like, no, no, that was what worked in 2025. What about 2026? What about 2027? And so I think it's great when you find people who have that mindset of, um, I've got to keep testing and learning because I can't optimize if

Speaker C: I don't demand curves are changing all the time. What's current and relevant now changes in the next hot second. And again, I think we all have to approach it with humility and being open to being wrong to really grow and drive success in the business. Um, okay, so I love this research. It's 24 PowerPoint pages, not densely packed. So it's a wonderful read and it's packed with insights. How would you though, summarize the so what of the findings for our readers and our listeners?

Speaker A: I think kind of at the most fundamental level, when you're looking at your own program or if you're going to start a program or revamp your program, number one, make sure you got the basics, value and ease. And we talked about those. Value is the bigger driver. You know, you got to make sure you ensure that your program has the right features, the right team member opportunities, surprise and delight that will accelerate emotional connection. So get value and ease right. If you think you've got that nailed, make sure you're getting, uh, emotional connection. Right, because that's the real accelerator and multiplier of business results. And if you don't, overlook, in other words, embrace the basics of connection, which are motivation and appreciation, that's going to really amplify your results, even if you've got a solid value and ease foundation that you can build on.

Speaker C: I love this conversation and I, uh, want to help our listeners and viewers know. How can the ITA Group partner with those listening to us today? And they're evolving their loyalty programs into true growth engines.

Speaker A: Yeah, so when we work with clients, we're primarily, primarily working with them to design, operate and optimize loyalty programs. So we kind of, uh, espouse six keys to a successful loyalty program. The first is design and strategy. And we lean into our proprietary approach called EPIC Design, which is where we make sure that the program is uniquely and unmistakably of your brand. EPIC stands for empathy, purpose, impact. That's the outcomes and context. What role does your brand play in the lives of your participants? So once we've done strategy and design, we then move on to the technology platform where we have our own technology. It's called Horizon. We operate programs. We can either run the program day to day for our clients, which we do for a number of our clients, or we can make it self serve in our platform. Beyond that, we do creative and communications. We've got a whole creative agency within ITA group. We fulfill those gifts, experiences and awards and rewards that might be outside of your own company's ecosystem. And then we do analytics and optimization and kind of the test and learn we talked about are that and some of our clients, most of our clients were really doing all those pieces for them. And other clients, they say, I just really need help with fulfilling those gifts, experiences and awards. And so when a brand has all the insights and research, we pick it up from there with them. But we also have a, ah, research practice which is who's doing the research with us. And we can help people do consumer research, path to purchase, customer journey mapping. Those are things we also help clients with to really shape their programs and refine their programs.

Speaker C: So it sounds very client focused, client centered. It can be something end to end or modules within. So, you know, I've been so impressed, um, Chris, with everything I have learned about ita, the research you all have done, and certainly this conversation today. I think it's worth listeners and viewers time to do outreach to ITA and see how y' all can partner. Um, so with that, you know, it's okay how our customers can, or, sorry, our listeners can engage with you through LinkedIn or something like that.

Speaker A: Absolutely. LinkedIn's a great place to reach out to me and I think we'll share my, uh, LinkedIn contact accordingly.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Okay, we'll put that in the links for the viewers and listeners to have access to. Thank you so very much. I genuinely enjoyed this. I genuinely learned a lot and I appreciate your time here today.

Speaker A: Thanks Bridget. It's been great, uh, sharing with you and learning from your experience as well. So really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me today and thanks

Speaker C: to our listeners and our viewers. Next time, we'll see you again. Take care.

Speaker B: This show is sponsored by Wise Marketeer Group. Operating the Wise Marketeer and Loyalty Academy for nearly 25 years, the wise Marketer is the industry's longest serving publication and source for news, information and insights, which now includes its own branded industry research insights and advice. For global coverage of customer engagement and loyalty. Check out thewisemarketer.com and become a Wiser Marketer member or subscriber. The Loyalty Academy sets a global industry standard for loyalty education with its Certified Loyalty marketing professional, or CLMP, designation, which has created a community of more than 1200 marketing executives and professionals across more than 50 countries. Learn more about global loyalty education for individuals or corporate training@loyaltyacademy.org thank you so much for listening to this episode of let's Talk Loyalty. If you'd like us to send you the latest shows each week, uh, Simply sign up for the let's Talk loyalty newsletter on letstalkloyalty.com and we'll send our best episodes straight to your inbox. And don't forget that you can follow let's Talk Loyalty on any of your favorite podcast platforms. And of course, we'd love for you to share your feedback and reviews. Thanks again for supporting the show.