Episode 51 | Tim Elmore | Leading the Next Generation: How Today's Leaders Can Unlock the Potential of Gen Z

Cameron Nathan Singh: Foreign. Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Tim Elmore: It's great to be with you, Cameron.

Cameron Nathan Singh: Yeah, awesome. I'm really looking forward to this new book that you have out now. Um, the Future Begins with Z. Um, Tim, I really have enjoyed reading all your books, uh, over the past years. Always insightful, especially your talk about the different generations. Um, we've seen, um, different generations of workforce from, uh, the millennials, now Gen Z, and now we have an even newer generation. But I really have enjoyed going through your content about Generation Z. There's so much talk about this next generation, the new generation. Um, before we get going on this conversation, Tim, what really kind of inspires you to do research and write about, um, kind of about these different generations, especially what you wrote about in this one with Generation Z. Yeah.

Tim Elmore: I think the best answer to that question is that as I consult with businesses and universities and schools, I keep bumping into people who are more frustrated

Speaker B: than fascinated with the new generation coming in.

Tim Elmore: And we all know back in the

Speaker B: day we were that new generation.

Tim Elmore: But right now it feels like they're coming in so, so drastically different. Uh, the classroom they've spent their entire life with is so different than the workroom they've moved into. So I keep hearing managers and supervisors saying, gosh, they, they, they want a

Speaker B: coffee break every 15 minutes and they leave at three or they want to leave at three.

Tim Elmore: So, um, I'm stereotyping, but you know what I'm saying, there's such a difference that sometimes we just can give up. Um, in fact, resume builder.com did a nationwide survey and they found that 3 out of 4 managers find gen Z the toughest generation to manage and 30% avoid hiring them altogether. And I'm just thinking that is not a way forward. We can't move forward with that.

Speaker B: In fact, here's what I would say.

Tim Elmore: We don't know much about the future, but we do know one thing. Gen Z is going to be there

Speaker B: and we may not be.

Tim Elmore: So we're going to have to help them climb onto our shoulders and pour into them and get them ready to take their roles on our team. That's why I felt like I need to create a field guide for that manager that's over 40 years old. That's.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's more frustrated than fascinated right now. Yeah.

Cameron Nathan Singh: Like, for myself, Tim, I've never really had much interaction with Generation Z until, um, my role now in a university setting. So I see it kind, uh, of firsthand. And that's why I really was excited for this interview. Um, as we, you know, on the university setting, preparing students out for the workforce. Um, but before we go into that, uh, what would you say, how would you define Generation Z? What are the kind of the years that they grew up in the science at that time? And also, what do you say are those defining characteristics of what a Generation Z person or this Generation Z is all about?

Speaker B: Great.

Tim Elmore: Good question, by the way. Well, sometimes we mistakenly assume they're just continuations of the millennials, and they are not. The millennials grew up more or less in the 80s and 90s. Generation Z has pretty much grown up in the 21st century with not just a cell phone, but a smartphone, which was a game changer. Uh, mass shootings in America have just skyrocketed the last few years, Cameron. There's been more mass shootings than there have been days in the year. Uh, I didn't have that when I was growing up. I mean, my biggest problem in middle school was, you know, where's my baseball mitt?

Speaker B: And how do I find a girlfriend?

Tim Elmore: Well, now, you know, they're ducking in the cafeteria if they hear a loud noise because they think a gun is going off. So, um, Gen Z would make up, depending on the social scientists that you read after, uh, they would be the late 90s, all the way through 2010, I believe, the turn of the century. So much pivoted at that time that they really began at least the new marked human being turn a century onward. Uh, and you even mentioned the Alpha generation now is the younger children behind Gen Z that we're studying now. But, um, I would say if you and I went to Starbucks and we had five minutes and you said, summarize Gen Z. I would say as they come into the workplace or maybe even in the classroom, you'll see a high sense of agency. They feel pretty self sufficient and a high sense of anxiety. So one screams, I don't need your help. The other screams, I desperately need your help. You follow what I'm saying? You might feel this as an instructor. Um, so the agency, think about it. They grew up with a smartphone, not just a cell phone. So kids are asking Google, Siri and Alexa questions they used to ask mom

Speaker B: and dad at the dinner table.

Tim Elmore: Uh, but then the anxiety, I think the smartphone brought on both of these. Anxiety and agency. Think about it. I can do anything. I can look it up. It's on demand, instant access. But yet I'm overwhelmed with the volume of information coming at me. And now I feel a little bit paralyzed. So you, um, know this because you're involved in the university. But 94% of university students tell us that the number one word they use to describe their life is the word overwhelmed. And I'm just thinking, I don't think life was supposed to look like that. Um, so anyway, I'll stop there. But that would be what I would say in a few minutes to try to describe Gen Z to anybody who cared to know.

Cameron Nathan Singh: M. Yeah, and one of the things too, as leading students and also uh, previously in the business world, uh, leading those in Generation Z, I realized the expectations in the work environment are very different. Post to myself that's a millennial. And uh, that's one of the things that really, really surprised me about um, Gen Z is expectation in the workplace. Um, overall, overall M, just perspectives about work as. I think it's, it's shifted over the years. Uh, and I, I think just the, the way Generation Z looks um, into the future about their life, it's, it's totally different. Uh, but we'd love to hear your thoughts on.

Tim Elmore: Absolutely. They do come in with different expectations. Part of it is that oftentimes parents have said to them growing up, just focus on academics. Don't get that job in the summer. Don't get that part time job. Uh, not all, but many enough that they may come into the workplace with little to no experience at work. So a hiring manager might be flabbergasted

Speaker B: if I can use that verb at what they're asking for. Six digit salary. I want, you know, PTO here and

Tim Elmore: I gotta take care of my mental health. And they do. And they do. But they're asking for a lot. So one of the chapters in the book, I talk about expectations and.

Speaker B: Right.

Tim Elmore: Sizing them. Sometimes we need to lean into them. It is a new day. And sometimes they need to lean into the real world that follows college. So I use the word perks. It's an acronym P, E, R K S. Um, I think during that interview just to figure out where they are, we need to find out their preferences. That's letter P. In other words, what do you wish were true about this workplace? Maybe we can do it. Maybe you want a Coke machine in

Speaker B: the dining lounge or whatever. Maybe we can do that.

Tim Elmore: But it's good to find those out because that can be a rub, finding it out six months later where they're gossiping or throwing everybody under the bus because there wasn't a Coke machine. The letter E is expectations. So Cameron, here's what I have come to believe. Conflict expands based on the Distance between expectations and reality. Um, if you think about it, they're coming in with an expectation. If it isn't voiced and you don't know and later it becomes an issue because you never found out, it's been unspoken and unmet, it's trouble. Here's the analogy I always give.

Speaker B: I don't know if you've heard me

Tim Elmore: say this or not, but if I tell my wife I'm going to be home by 7:30 for dinner and I get home at 7:40, it's not a big deal. They get home at 9:30, we have

Speaker B: a tough conversation there.

Tim Elmore: And it's not because she couldn't live without me for two hours. It's because I created an expectation. And conflict expands based on the distance between those two. So expectations. The letter R is requirements. Gen Z is coming in with some demands. They have heard how horrific that the workplace is. You, you don't care about us, we're commodities. You know you'll fire us in a heartbeat if the revenue isn't right. And they feel that way anyway, so they don't feel like we really care. So they will come in with some demands on what the company does for the community, on what you'll do for me. And it's good to find those out, the sooner the better. The letter K in perks is. I think it's important to know the keys to their heart. Um, this may sound like a soft issue, but I just want to know what makes them tick. What are their passions, what are their loves? I want to know something about them that's not just about work and the tasks I've been given them to do. And then the letter S and perks is obvious. But salary, what kind of desire do they have? And maybe we need to stop the conversation there. I give those only as a handle. Uh, but I feel like we're going to find some differences with Gen Z because they look. Well, let me say one more thing. In 2020, Gen Z was beginning to enter the workplace. And if you remember, 2020 was a hard year. The pandemic broke out. We all were sent home. Well, Gen Z was the first population to be let go by bosses. Well, they thought, well, you weren't loyal to me, Bob.

Speaker B: Why should I be loyal to you now?

Tim Elmore: I got to look out for myself. So there's a lookout for myself type of mindset that doesn't go over well with an employer, but it's understandable. And I'm not excusing their behavior, but I am trying to explain their Behavior.

Cameron Nathan Singh: Yeah, yeah. The lookout for myself was actually just going through my mind. Um, and that's something I noticed from Gen Z. Like, for me, Tim, as a millennial, uh, I was one that was super passionate, you know, uh, in the aviation industry, uh, stuck with one company for about 10 years, rose to, you know, leadership roles very quickly. And it was all about work, work, work. And now I realize Generation Z, they're all about looking after themselves first. And, uh, it's work. And then there's the other stuff, as opposed to that millennial mindset where it was all about work and it was all about rising to leadership ranks and getting your all into work. And that's one of the major shift that me as a Gen Y is I still can't wrap my head around. Um, yeah, it's almost, uh, even. Even I see student workers. I'm like, oh, my goodness, you're so selfish.

Tim Elmore: Yeah, yeah, That's a natural feel because of the mindset you have. So do you mind if I volley back on that?

Cameron Nathan Singh: Yes.

Tim Elmore: So many, Lots of research. For the book Quantitative, I did surveys, but also qualitative research in focus groups. So as I asked Gen zers, hundreds of them from California to Georgia, what's your view of work? Do you know what they said? It's like my hobby. So I thought, wait a minute, let's

Speaker B: double click on, um, that. What do you mean by that?

Tim Elmore: Well, they look at older generations and go, my gosh, work was everything to you. So they would say, baby boomers, you live to work, I work to live. And part of it is a reaction to the older generations where their work became everything and it wasn't always healthy. And dad divorced mom, or mom divorced dad, and you broke up our family. And I know I'm stereotyping, but too much of that happened. And they're going, my reaction is a reaction to your excesses on the job. So I think there's a happy medium when they say hobby. I'm not put off by that anymore. Think about, listeners. Think about the last time you had a hobby that you absolutely loved. I mean, it might have been an HO scale train set you had in the basement, or a baseball card collection or maybe playing a sport. Couldn't you hardly wait to get to it?

Speaker B: Of course.

Tim Elmore: And wasn't your best work done maybe at 11pm Not 11am?

Speaker B: Of course.

Tim Elmore: I'm just saying, what if we profiled the job, even though it completely grinds

Speaker B: at us to say this like it was a hobby.

Tim Elmore: Now we need you to show up on Time, we need you to get to work. But let's make this something you absolutely care about and love. And we might find they go well beyond the bare minimum duties because they've fallen in love with the work that we given them to do. I think that's the key.

Cameron Nathan Singh: Yeah, that's good. One of the things I realized, Tim, is that, uh, Gen Z, they're willing to leave jobs for any reason. Uh, it could be something super, super minor. And they are okay with leaving a job after one month or two months, or go to another place and stay there for a couple months and kind of continue, uh, that rhythm. For me, I took a different approach to that. Um, but with this, um, Gen Z having that reputation of hopping from job to job, um, how can leaders now, speaking to those leaders, those hiring managers, how can leaders make young team members as, uh, Generation Z want to stay longer?

Tim Elmore: Yeah, great question.

Speaker B: In fact, I think that's the $64,000 question.

Tim Elmore: So retention is an issue. Onboarding is an issue. For first of all, it's very important to know that the majority of Gen zers said in a survey, I make up my mind whether I'm going to stay at the job on day one. So I think we need to make their first day and their first week unforgettable. I realize this sounds like we're,

Cameron Nathan Singh: I

Speaker B: don't know, giving in to their wishes, these entitled children, you know, but I

Tim Elmore: really think we need to make week one unforgettable. Which means we see them, we notice them, maybe we even have their name pop up on the screens at the office. Or maybe they see something, a gift on their desk when they show up at their cubicle or their office. Maybe they're assigned a Sherpa guide who kind of watches over them week one and takes them to lunch and helps them understand how the work works. You know, that sort of thing. I think that's key. But really what I'm saying is, right, relationship is almost everything. If there isn't some connection made, I don't think you have a good chance of keeping them again. If they feel like a commodity that comes and goes, um, they will be hopping around. One CEO said to me, the corporate ladder has become the corporate lily pad.

Speaker B: You know, there are frogs hopping around everywhere.

Tim Elmore: So relationship is key. The phrase that I'm hearing them use now as I talk in focus groups with them is I want a culture of belonging. Now, listeners think about this for a minute. They want to feel like not just they fit in, but they belong. Here's the Difference fitting in means here's who I am, but I need to change myself to fit into this team. You don't like my purple hair, you don't like my nose ring or whatever. Belonging is something different. Belonging is I come in fully as I am, but I am um, myself on behalf of a larger whole. That's the key. So we need to sell them on the job and the mission that this organization has and then say we want you to be your full self. But it's not just about you, uh, Jessica or Josh. It's about something way, way bigger than you. So I'll stop there. But I think this is the key to every one of them that I'm talking to.

Cameron Nathan Singh: No, I think you touched on some good points there Tim. And I see that too is um, Gen Z. They want belonging, but also uh, they also want uh, connection and that relationship. They crave both. They have that desire and they crave both. And I think those are the two elements that bring um, bring happiness for, for Gen Z in a working environment and they're able to stay longer. And I think once you remove one or and both, then they're gone.

Tim Elmore: No doubt about it. In fact, one of the chapters in the book, I dedicate it to the myths that we've come to believe about Gen Z. And there are some, I had some myths and this is what I do for a living. So you might appreciate this. I sat down and I talked to the Gen zers in these focus groups about some of the most common myths. One of them is they don't really care about the job. They don't really care about working. In fact, at five o' clock they leave as quick as they can. So um, you're in California, Cameron. I talked to some Gen zers in California and I said that, I said, uh, the bosses feel like you don't really care about the work. You leave right at 5 and one young lady, 21 years old, full time job, said, can I tell you why I leave right at 5? I said sure. She said, because I have to dash off to another job. I don't make enough money here to make ends meet and pay the bills. And then when that second job is done, I run off to take care of my mom who has stage four cancer. Suddenly my myth was built, busted and I realized, oh, she does work and she does care, but it may be a little different and I need to ask her not assume that she doesn't care. So I'm telling you just like we wished back in the day when we were young, nobody had stereotypes about us. We need to make sure we're not stereotyping them along the way.

Cameron Nathan Singh: Yeah, M. Uh, I wanted to talk about feedback because I think this is, this is very important because um, I think feedback is taken very differently with Generation Z. We'd love to hear about your thoughts about how leaders should approach feedback because one of the things that I've noticed is there's a little bit more of a, um, sensitivity, uh, to feedback if I'm saying that properly.

Speaker B: Yes.

Cameron Nathan Singh: So we'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Tim Elmore: So many of the gen zers have not been in a full time job or not very long and so any uh, hard feedback feels like an attack. In fact, if I can divert for just a minute, one of the things that might happen because it's happened quite a bit across the country is they weaponized the term psychological safety. You give them a little bit of hard feedback, uh, ah, I'm being attacked. This is not a psychologically safe place. And you go, no, no, it's fully safe. In fact, because it's safe, we can exchange hard truths with each other and you with me, me with you and it's okay, we're not going to, you know, leave each other or whatever. So just know that can happen. So many, um, bosses, when I say many, uh, more than I can count, have not used the word sensitive like you did kindly. They use the word fragile. Um, in fact it's uh, my friend Jeff Hancher just wrote a book called Firm Feedback to a Fragile Generation. Uh, and it's not just Gen Z. I think everywhere we're a little bit more fragile. We feel attacked when it's not really a personal attack. So here's my answer. If anybody's listening and you're making mental notes. I try to give a game plan in every one of these chapters on how to deal with hard situations. And this feedback is a hard situation. So Cameron, you know how for years and years we use the term, uh, this is the leg you got to stand on, meaning this is something you can really count on. I take the letters A, L, E, G and it's my four step process. When I have to offer hard or harsh feedback to a young team member. The letter A is I need to begin with asking, not telling. What I want to do is I

Speaker B: want to tell them what they did wrong. I mean that's what they deserve right now.

Tim Elmore: But I need to stop with uh, or stop that and start with wow, what made you think about taking that direction? I Was have never thought about that. You see how safe that feels? And I'm really finding out what.

Speaker B: What in the world were you doing there?

Tim Elmore: But I'm. I'm asking, not telling, not correcting. Um, in fact, I think you gotta connect before you correct. So when I ask, they feel valued. Isn't it true when someone asks you about yourself, you. Well, they care about what I think. The letter L. I gotta listen. Well, in fact, it does very little good to ask without taking the time to truly listen. And when I listen, they feel heard, which is the number one request Gen Zers have. I want to have a voice from day one on the job. And you're going, you got to be

Speaker B: here five years, buddy, before you have. That's not true for them.

Tim Elmore: So listen, listen, listen. Maybe that first week when they've done something strange, the letter E is empathize. Now, I'm going to be honest with you. This is something I've had to learn six decades into my life. I feel like I have empathized, but I've not known how to say it to a, uh, 20 something, for instance. So when I empathize, they feel understood, and that's huge. So let's say I'm an older white male, and let's say I'm talking to a younger black female. Okay? A person of color. I want her to know as best as I can. I get what you're saying. I can't fully understand because I'm not you. You see what I'm saying? But I say things like, oh, my gosh, I had no idea, or, wow, I bet that made you feel horrible when that happened. Not cheesy, but let them know, okay, he's getting this. He's getting this. So think with me.

Speaker B: Ask.

Tim Elmore: Uh, and they feel valued. Listen. They feel heard. Empathize. They feel understood. Now, I've earned my right to do what I wanted to do from the very beginning, which is to guide them. But I've earned my right to do it through a bridge I just built, not a badge I wear. And that's what is so hard for us. Um, I feel like we need to leave the gatekeeper style of leadership where I'm the gatekeeper of all power to the guide. Gatekeeper to guide. Gatekeeper to guide. I'm guiding them along the way. I'm mentoring them. They feel like they're being poured into. Who wouldn't want to stay there in that scenario? So I'll stop there.

Cameron Nathan Singh: Yeah, Um, I. I think that's a very good approach because Listening, I feel is, has been super important, especially for Generation Z. You know, I, I always, uh, think back to some of these conversations I've had over the years with Gen Z. And um, sometimes they walk in my office, they'll talk for 20, 30 minutes. I'll maybe ask a few questions here or there, maybe say a few things. But then after they come visit, they'll be like, oh, I feel so much better. Thank you so much for your help. But. And you haven't said much. They just wanted someone to look, they needed that.

Tim Elmore: Yeah, no doubt about it for sure. In fact, sometimes I've gotten in my

Speaker B: own way when I offered 16 tidbits for them, they go, I don't need this.

Tim Elmore: You know what? I learned this with my daughter who's in her 30s. You can imagine, I have been, I'm

Speaker B: the teacher, always the teacher. So I'm sharing a habitude with her or whatever. They go, I don't need that, Dad. I just need you to listen to me.

Tim Elmore: And it's been so, so profoundly game changing when I've learned to listen to my own young adult children.

Cameron Nathan Singh: Yeah, yeah. Another thing that's helped me, Tim, is, um. Yeah, I don't really know much about Gen Z. Of course I've learned a lot through going through your book and really have enjoyed going through this. But, um, sometimes I just don't understand the mindset or why a person thinks a certain way. So I simply, as a, as a leader or manager is I simply ask, okay, why do you think that way? Or why do you feel that way? And um, that really helps as you talk about like bridge, bridge the gap and be that guide for that person.

Tim Elmore: No doubt you just said a mouthful. In fact, I like to use the phrase context explains conduct. So all you're finding out is what's

Speaker B: the context of your behavior?

Tim Elmore: And you're, oh, now I get it. You might not agree with it all the time, but at least you get it. So something I say in chapter one of this book I'd like to share right now, I think it may explain this confounding difference that we feel between us and them. There is something going on that I call the Peter Pan paradox. So in Generation iy, a book I wrote years ago, I called the Peter Pan Syndrome. And you know the character Peter Pan, right. Disney made a movie about it decades ago and there's a play in a book and everything else, the Peter Pan paradox is this. It's two big realities. The age of authority is going down, but the age of Maturity is going up. Now let me explain. The age of authority is uh, going down. They're coming in to their adult years. Very smart on certain categories, maybe not all the ones we'd like, but man, they just get smart.

Speaker B: Technology.

Tim Elmore: One out of eight Gen Zers has monetized social media and one out of

Speaker B: five of them on uh, TikTok, it's a full time job and they're on their phone for Pete's sake.

Tim Elmore: So the age of authority is going down. They have authority without a title or a position and we didn't recognize this. We need to recognize this. It's confounding to us because we don't know why a 23 year old would know so much about this. So the age of authority is going down at the same time. What makes it frustrating is the age of maturity seems to be rising, meaning what we once expected in past generations. You know, you're adult at 18, you're voting at 18, right? You can serve in the military at 18. The age of maturity, uh, seems to be going up. I do not want this to sound um, mean spirited at all, but I have lost count of the number of university deans that have said to me, 26 is the new 18. You know, what we once expected at 18. You're a woman now. Let's be responsible, let's take initiative. It's now happening later. That doesn't mean they're bad or evil. It just means they're. Here's what we've found in our studies. Cognitively and biologically they're ahead. Socially and emotionally, they tend to be behind. So we need to know, okay, let's pour into them in the areas that they need.

Speaker B: Let's listen to them in the areas that we need to listen.

Tim Elmore: So uh, here's a nice rivet around what I just said. Leaders, you're going to need to listen more than you used to listen to them, but coach more than you used to coach, if that makes sense.

Cameron Nathan Singh: Yeah, that's what really took me out of my comfort zone is the coaching side. Listening I got pretty good at, but then the coaching side, yeah, it's, it's a uh, little bit unique, but I, I think you uh, touched on something good too is the uh, especially on the emotional side. And I realize, um, you know, with, with I guess my generation and maybe from my lens is, you know, it was all about work, work, work. And um, you know, doesn't matter if you lose yourself or you lose your mind. You're, you've got that job, you Got that title. But now generation, um, Z. Ah. And also just in general, society is talking about mental health more.

Tim Elmore: Yeah, right.

Cameron Nathan Singh: There's, um, people are talking about that at the surface level now. Uh, and I think when, when I was in my 20s, that wasn't necessarily a topic. It wasn't the first thing. And so there's a lot of sensitivity too. Uh, because I just think Gen Z, they're not quite emotionally there. Yeah, it's becoming a serious issue too. Um, and I see this in a university setting and I've also seen this in the work environment is where this, um, is, uh, becoming problematic. So what can, um, leaders do to help in this aspect? Because to be honest, I don't think it's getting any better.

Tim Elmore: No, you're right. At least the data shows us it's on the way forward into what you just said, not backwards. So, um, you're absolutely right. Uh, anxiety has been normalized. Depression is on the rise. Uh, it's so sad. It's so sad. I think we were all ambushed by this issue. And part of the reason is the smartphone. It's not the only reason, but we didn't know what this smartphone and the overwhelming amount of notifications would do to us. But it is overwhelming us and especially Gen Z. So let me tell a quick story before I give you some, some steps you can take. Um, I have a dear friend who owns a company and they hired a Gen Z or a young lady. They hired her because she's smart, 4.0 GPA. But, um, on the first week on the job, they felt like she was disengaging. So her direct supervisor met with her and said, are you all right? What's up? Why aren't you doing your work? And she was pulling back more and more. And she finally admitted, you guys don't care about my mental health. I need, I need some times to get away or whatever. And, and that's not wrong. But they needed her to do the

Speaker B: job description that they are. They're paying her money and they're going, where's the return on investment?

Tim Elmore: Well, that just seems so cruel to her. And so she didn't understand the equation of the give and take of, of

Speaker B: the social contract that we make with

Tim Elmore: a, uh, with a boss. And she felt like they didn't get her because they never really asked about, uh, you know, you struggling with anxiety disorders or depression. Within a month, she wrote a letter to the whole. An email. I'm sorry, not a letter. An email to the whole company. Not her boss, not her department, whole company. I'm leaving, Bye. And left that day. Poof, she's gone. So no two weeks notice. She didn't know to do that, I guess. Or she didn't read the manual. So this is happening. That's not an isolated incident. It's happening more and more and, and of course supervisors are going, what in the world is going on? So the number one thing we can do is we need to bring up the issue. You're not inviting more trouble. When you bring it up, if you do it right, you need to say, hey, I know many people today, not

Speaker B: just your generation, Susie, but many people

Tim Elmore: today are struggling with mental health issues. How are you doing in that area? We want to make sure you feel cared for because I need you to get some things done. So you're talking about the exchange. Okay, but see, when you bring it up now, they don't feel like it's an unspeakable topic. And then in this chapter, I have a whole chapter on mental health. In this book, the Future Begins with Z. I talk about four doable things that departments and leaders can do for their Gen zers. The first one is margin. I think we need to make sure, especially at the beginning that a Gen Z team member feels like they have some margin in their day. Now I know you and I have bought into it, man. Squeeze every ounce of work you can

Speaker B: into that eight hours. That's how you show you got work ethic. They um, would, oh, I need to tell you this.

Tim Elmore: In my surveys I have a whole

Speaker B: chapter on the future of work for Gen Z.

Tim Elmore: They believe shortcuts are ah, the new work ethic. Now they're not all 59 million Gen Zers, but they said, I think if you can get the work done in four hours, not eight hours, they would say.

Speaker B: They said to me, your generation thinks you're slipping. We're taking shortcuts and that's not good.

Tim Elmore: They go, oh no, that's great. So we need to understand they see it differently. Margin simply means we do have space where they can kind of collect their thoughts, maybe take a quick break so that they can get the work done. And I actually think that might be good. I worked for John Maxwell for 20 years, man.

Speaker B: That guy is a worker.

Tim Elmore: I showed up at 6am Thinking I would beat him to the office.

Speaker B: He'd gotten there at 5:00am um, that was old school, wasn't it?

Tim Elmore: Well they're going, why would you do that?

Speaker B: You know, why would you do that?

Tim Elmore: So put some margin in their day, allow for some margin. The second one is movement. Many Americans, including Gen Zers, are asked to sit at a computer and that sedentary life does not help our mental health. You know that I don't need to go on and on, but make sure that you allow for movement. So I know a group at our office will go outside about 3 o' clock and they're walking around the building two or three times and I love it, I love it. I look out the wind. This is going to help them work better when they get back. It's okay with me that they take 10 minutes and do that. So please, please, please, if you're an old school thinker, a traditional thinker, maybe that walk is going to be good, not bad for the workload that they're carrying. Another one is. I, um, know it's a weird word, but mindfulness, I think there's something to mindfulness and that's not some weird new age term to stop and allow them to pause and breathe and be reflective for a minute and catch their thoughts or capture their thoughts. Um, I'll stop during the day a couple of times. I've even written it into the calendar where I have times of interruption because I know they're going to come where I'm just mindful. Um, you can read more about that

Speaker B: if you want to.

Tim Elmore: Ladies and gentlemen, listening. But just know that's different than the old school mindset, but it's necessary. My fourth M. M, you've noticed all these start with M is um, management help them manage their mental health and that might mean, uh, they need an appointment with a counselor. I mean we have to go to the doctor, you know, so maybe that needs to be squeezed into their day maybe at 4 o' clock or whatever so they leave a touch earlier. Uh, but management might mean meds they take, it might mean just actually managing what's manageable in their calendar. Um, and I think we need to help them there more than perhaps we did the previous three generations that came to work. So I guess I'm just saying to listeners, let this be an issue. It is an issue. The sooner you jump on board and get with it, the better off you're you're going to be.

Cameron Nathan Singh: I love your insights on that and I think that needs to be a huge focus. Um, ah, whether you're an employer or in the academic setting or wherever, uh, especially when encountering Gen Z, um, to, to have that um, at the forefront like this is an issue in our society today. And what is it that you as a leader can do to help help them navigate the waters of this space. Uh, that can feel scary.

Tim Elmore: No doubt, no doubt. Would you mind, Cameron, if I told a quick story? Um, everything I said, I, um, think can be summed up in this story. At the beginning of the book, I share the story of Colin Webb. I have known Colin since he was in high school. He's a very smart public high school student. In fact, so smart that he got an invitation to go to MIT for college. So he went off to Boston and went four years to mit, made good grades, served in student government, et cetera. When he graduated, you can imagine he got some job offers, some good ones. He decided to go to Detroit and serve at one of the big three automakers, General Motors, and they put him in the smart car division. So Collins working the smart car division at 22 years old. Well, Colin immediately saw some improvements that could be made in how they do professional development, how they get this task done. Uh, there have been some normalization of defects there in this old school way

Speaker B: of doing work there at GM in his mind.

Tim Elmore: So Colin talks to his supervisor, and you should know he's a very respectful young man. Really respectful. I'd hire him in a New York

Speaker B: minute if I could afford him.

Tim Elmore: Well, when he talked about these ideas he had to his supervisor, they go, hey, buddy, just keep your nose to the grindstone, keep your head down, do your work. Well, Colin went back to his desk, but, um, he knew these ideas were good. So get this. He had the audacity to send an email to Mary Barra, the CEO of General Motors.

Speaker B: So he sends this email to her, this, you know, huge leader.

Tim Elmore: Mary gets back to it and says, these are really good ideas. Let me take them to the, to the executive team that I work with. They all agreed they were good ideas. But by the time those ideas made their way down the organizational flowchart, bound to the middle managers that managed cam, uh, or Colin, I'm sorry, uh, they got stuck. They reached impasse. In fact, Colin was told, you need to be here eight years before you get to be a leader of anything. Well, within the year, Colin left. He started two companies. He sold one of them. He's now doing quite well financially, living, uh, in the Bay Area right now. But I'm thinking, uh, there might be some things I don't understand about this story. But one thing I think I do understand, GM lost out on an incredible young team member because they didn't want to change. They wanted to do it old school. And certainly they're great But I'm just saying we need to be open to what they bring. The age of authority is dropping.

Cameron Nathan Singh: That's so true. Um, Tim, as we wrap up this conversation, I, uh, wanted to end on one final question. Here is how do you remain optimistic about the future?

Tim Elmore: Yeah.

Speaker B: Wow.

Tim Elmore: Well, I started studying the different generations in 1988, believe it or not, when

Speaker B: Gen X was coming in.

Tim Elmore: I'm a baby boomer, so I'm an old guy, but I began to see in the late 80s, ooh, changes in the wind. And then your generation, the millennials, came along. Oh, my gosh, changes in the wind again. Now Gen Z, soon it will be Gen Alpha. But every time I force myself to focus on what do they bring? Not how different are they, but what do they bring. So here's a good analogy. I'm, um, going to tell a story real quick. A good analogy is, isn't it true if you went to England, let's say you and I flew to England? Flew to London. Okay. It would be easy to say, oh,

Speaker B: wow, they're different here.

Tim Elmore: They drive on the wrong side of the road. They spell words wrongly. They pronounce, uh, words wrongly. Well, that's not true. They're different, but they're not wrong.

Speaker B: Do you see what I'm saying? You see where I'm going with this?

Tim Elmore: We need to make sure we don't say they're wrong. They are different. But here's how I stay optimistic. The last four generations coming into the workplace brought something we desperately need. And if I may illustrate, back in the 1960s, the United States of America achieved something that we had never achieved before. It was in 1969 that the US put a man on the moon. Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out on the moon. And that was a feat that no country in the world had done. Here's the story behind the story. Did you know that when John F. Kennedy cast vision that we're going to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade in 1961 and 62, the US didn't even have the technology to do such a thing.

Speaker B: They were still doing things way old, just trying to orbit the Earth or something.

Tim Elmore: So they quickly brought in the latest technology. But the current staff at NASA didn't know how to operate that new technology. So they got interns from mit, Purdue University, Georgia Tech, who did know how to operate.

Speaker B: You see, where does this sound strangely familiar?

Tim Elmore: They said, oh, we know how to do that. And very quickly, the people that were 45 to 55 said, we will be sim sups simulator supervisors, we'll be the mentors here. But you guys understand these new computers. You guys get it. And so I don't know if you know this, but the average age of the guys, usually it was guys, but guys that were at the uh, they were serving as operators that landed a man on the moon. 27 years old, average age 27, many of them younger. In fact, the man that said go not know that actually landed the space capsule on the moon, Jack Garman, 23 years old, one year out of college. But NASA trusted those 20 somethings. They said, yeah, you're different, you baby boomers, you.

Speaker B: We were different back in the day.

Tim Elmore: But they said, we trust that you have an intuition on how to use this new way of doing work. So maybe we need to be NASA again 50, 60 years later and see if we can put a man on the moon in our own industry.

Cameron Nathan Singh: M awesome. Well, thank you so much Tim for your time. Um, for those that are watching or listening, you could um, tune in after to um, learn more ways to get a hold of Tim's uh, new book. And um, Tim, it was ah, an honor and pleasure to have you on the podcast.

Tim Elmore: Thank you Cameron. Great to be with you again.