Dan Smolen on WorkFit: Finding Joy in How We Work and Live

S3 Episode 8 Dan Smolen on WorkFit: Finding Joy in How We Work and Live 11/8/25 - > Danny Gluch: Welcome back to The Elephant in the Org, everyone! I'm Danny Glutch, and I'm joined, as always, by my co-host,Casha Dora 3 - > Cacha Dora: Hello. 4 - > Danny Gluch: And Merritt Anderson. 5 - > Marion: Wait, I wasn't first this time?

What's that? 6 - > Danny Gluch: What's this? 7 - > Marion: Oh, bye. 8 - > Cacha Dora: We're flipping it!

Kid me? We're gonna keep flipping. 9 - > Marion: Now, we're not flipping it. He's only called me twice first in the entire length of the time that we've been doing this podcast, so I just want to call that out.

And one was this morning. One was this morning. And one was this morning. 10 - > Danny Gluch: I can'.

11 - > Cacha Dora: Can I listen for the time? 12 - > Danny Gluch: You were getting comfortable and chummy, I wanna make sure you know. 13 - > Marion: Well, we are chummy. 14 - > Danny Gluch: rough next piece.

15 - > Marion: Come on! 16 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah, we fit well together. We do. Yeah, our elephant in the org is work fit.

What does it mean? How can you look for it? And to do that, we have, as a special guest, Dan Smolen. Dan, say hi to everyone.

17 - > Dan Smolen: Hello! 18 - > Dan Smolen: From Northern Virginia. 19 - > Cacha Dora: Well, hello. 20 - > Marion: Hello, Northern Virginia!

21 - > Danny Gluch: Is that a new state? We have West Virginia, North Virginia…. 22 - > Dan Smolen: I'll tell you, you know, in Northern Virginia, they really… I think they want to secede from real Virginia. 23 - > Marion: Are we gonna go into that conversation today?

Because I wasn't prepared for that. That wasn't in the notes. 24 - > Danny Gluch: I'm horribly under-researched, my Virginia geography and politics, but that's okay. We're talking about WorkFit, which I have done research on, and… 25 - > Danny Gluch: you are a bit of an expert.

You love having conversations about work fit. 26 - > Danny Gluch: What is WorkFit, Dan? 27 - > Dan Smolen: So, work fit, and I'll define it by the question that I ask people who are guests on What's your work fit. 28 - > Dan Smolen: Marion included.

And that is this. One attribute, condition, experience, place, or state of mind makes work a wonderful part of your day doing other wonderful and meaningful things. 29 - > Dan Smolen: And it's not the all-consuming time suck of a day. 30 - > Marion: That's a work fit.

31 - > Cacha Dora: What a million dollar question for so many people, right? 32 - > Dan Smolen: Right, and it's like DNA. Nobody provides the same answer. I've been doing this show 3 years, I'm about to start my fourth, and no one has answered it the same way.

33 - > Marion: Yeah…. 34 - > Cacha Dora: Talk about individualization to a T. 35 - > Marion: Big time, big time. And, you know, I mean, I've listened to quite a few episodes now, and you're right, like, everyone has a very different approach, very different answer.

36 - > Marion: And it is DNA, because it's so personal. You know, it's so shaped by what we've experienced and, you know, when we get to a point in our lives, what 37 - > Marion: we deem as acceptable and what we deem as unacceptable, what our values are, what our expectations are, and it's really fascinating to listen 38 - > Marion: to other people. I mean, sneak preview, no surprise. When Dan asked me that question, mine was with psychological safety, right?

Shocker. But that is because, you know, for me, that's my biggest value. It's about being able to feel safe, and be myself, and contribute in the best way that I know how by feeling safe. 39 - > Marion: But, you know, I find it fascinating listening to other people, how they really, kind of, absorb that question.

What's been the most, kind of, interesting answer or surprising answer that you've had? 40 - > Dan Smolen: … I don't know that I was ever really surprised by anything. You know, I hear… 41 - > Dan Smolen: iterations of flow state. 42 - > Dan Smolen: You know, my work fit is great when I'm in a state of flow.

Okay, that's… that's cool, right? 43 - > Dan Smolen: Some people like the opportunity to break up the day. I'm hearing this more and more, especially with people who, like me earlier in their careers. 44 - > Dan Smolen: Commuted long distances to and from home.

45 - > Dan Smolen: And the day was the day, and you didn't own it. 46 - > Dan Smolen: Your day began when you got on the commuter train 47 - > Dan Smolen: for the 2-hour ride back to southern Connecticut, Flop, sweaty, bothered. 48 - > Dan Smolen: Tired. 49 - > Dan Smolen: And you get home, and you collapse.

And then you rinse and repeat and start it over again. 50 - > Danny Gluch: And so…. 51 - > Dan Smolen: Throughout my… 52 - > Dan Smolen: career, and my career is… it's a long one, with lots of chapters. I started off in broadcasting.

53 - > Dan Smolen: I then spent 15 years working 54 - > Dan Smolen: For advertising agencies, big ones, doing Big stuff. 55 - > Dan Smolen: And then, for 20 years, I was a recruiter, I was a headhunter. 56 - > Dan Smolen: 13 of which running my own firm. 57 - > Dan Smolen: And throughout that time, I was very conscious of what I wanted, or what I thought I wanted.

58 - > Dan Smolen: for a life. 59 - > Dan Smolen: And later, as a recruiter, That became third person. What do others want? 60 - > Dan Smolen: And guys, I gotta tell you.

61 - > Dan Smolen: WorkFit came about because what I heard from people When I probed it enough. 62 - > Dan Smolen: Was what others wanted for them. 63 - > Marion: Hmm…. 64 - > Dan Smolen: What others wanted for them.

What they What a boss or… 65 - > Dan Smolen: a senior… you know, somebody high up in the food chain looking down at the young up-and-comer. They wanted somebody who was going to be pushing hard all day long, and … 66 - > Dan Smolen: you know, throwing in lots of sports metaphors, leaving the pain on the field, and doing all that stuff, and beating themselves up, basically. And if you do that, we'll pay you. And maybe we'll pay you… maybe we'll… maybe we'll pay you a big bump up and give you a new title.

67 - > Dan Smolen: But what I've often… heard from people when I probe it enough was, So why am I miserable? 68 - > Cacha Dora: Because…. 69 - > Dan Smolen: You know, no one really asked me what I wanted, and what I wanted sometimes can be… 70 - > Dan Smolen: Like Marion said, psychological safety. 71 - > Marion: Yeah.

72 - > Dan Smolen: Or another person said, you know, I just adopted a child. I want to be able to break up my day so I can take my kid to the pediatrician, to the playdate, later on to the soccer field so that they can play and meet with other kids. 73 - > Dan Smolen: and go to the PTA meetings, and have a date with my significant other, and… 74 - > Dan Smolen: veg out at 2 o'clock in the afternoon if I feel like it, and oh, by the way. 75 - > Dan Smolen: I get a burst of energy at 3 o'clock in the morning.

I want to be able to get up and do head-down work, because the ideas are flowing. 76 - > Danny Gluch: That's a work film. 77 - > Marion: Yeah. 78 - > Dan Smolen: Because the work fit is what I want.

79 - > Dan Smolen: Yeah. It's not what someone else wants from me. 80 - > Marion: Oh my god, you're singing my song, Dan. 81 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah, and here's something that I find so interesting, because I know you're, like, speaking to us, like.

82 - > Danny Gluch: This is what we love. This is… we're like, yes, preaching to the choir. 83 - > Danny Gluch: And yet, Marion… 84 - > Danny Gluch: on multiple occasions, when I was working under her, had to tell me, Danny, you can't log in at 3 in the morning, because you were inspired. The California labor law says you can't do that.

85 - > Danny Gluch: And, you know, the laws are in place to protect a lot of employees, and, you know, she was doing her good HR due diligence, Danny, don't do that. 86 - > Danny Gluch: But that's what fit me, right? That's what fit what I was doing, how I like to work. When I was inspired, I didn't want to be like, oh, well, I'll log in at Monday at 8am, and I'll hopefully still feel this.

How do you help people 87 - > Danny Gluch: Navigate finding this fit and leaning into it. 88 - > Danny Gluch: When maybe their careers haven't progressed in a way to where they have the… 89 - > Danny Gluch: Agency, autonomy, legality of doing that. 90 - > Dan Smolen: Not everybody has the agency. Not everybody has the protection.

91 - > Dan Smolen: to do it. 92 - > Marion: Yeah. 93 - > Dan Smolen: It starts somewhere. 94 - > Dan Smolen: you know… I placed a lot of executives.

95 - > Dan Smolen: And that's very transactional. 96 - > Dan Smolen: Somebody's gonna pay you a lot of money. 97 - > Dan Smolen: To basically give up all your civil liberties. 98 - > Marion: And show up in an office and put in.

99 - > Dan Smolen: 50, 60, 70 hours a week. 100 - > Dan Smolen: And later on, it wasn't necessarily you had to go to the co-located office, maybe… 101 - > Dan Smolen: You got to work at other places, but you were always on. 102 - > Cacha Dora: And…. 103 - > Dan Smolen: the… the… The cautionary tale of that is sometimes people who are in that kind of modality 104 - > Dan Smolen: They miss out on barber appointments, hairstyling appointments.

105 - > Marion: Yeah. 106 - > Dan Smolen: Therapy appointments. 107 - > Marion: …. 108 - > Dan Smolen: lunch dates with friends and loved ones.

Yeah. These are the moments of our lives, right? Yeah. 109 - > Dan Smolen: And… And yet, They, for whatever reason, because others have told them, this is how you become a success.

110 - > Dan Smolen: Is that they… They put their… 111 - > Dan Smolen: Their hopes, wants, and dreams into a blind trust. 112 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah. And then they hit 40, and they're like. 113 - > Dan Smolen: Was that all there is?

114 - > Dan Smolen: Yeah. So… To answer your question, Danny, I try… 115 - > Dan Smolen: To encourage my viewers and listeners to… Think like little kids again. 116 - > Dan Smolen: You remember when you were 4 and 5, you know, the kindergarten teacher always asks you, you know, Danny, what do you want to be when you… 117 - > Dan Smolen: Grow up. Gotcha, what do you want to be when you grow up?

118 - > Dan Smolen: And… We might have described a firefighter, or a police officer, or a doctor. 119 - > Dan Smolen: And that part didn't really matter. That was probably because they… maybe… maybe a parent was a first responder, or a doctor, or something like that. 120 - > Cacha Dora: Right.

121 - > Dan Smolen: But what they ascribed for… what they wanted to do was have a blissful experience, right? Because that's what 122 - > Dan Smolen: do. Can I tell you what my 123 - > Dan Smolen: what my childhood work dream was, so the teacher asked me, Danny, because that's what I used to be called. 124 - > Dan Smolen: What do you want to be when you grow up?

125 - > Dan Smolen: And I said, I want to be a garbage collector. 126 - > Dan Smolen: And the teacher… 127 - > Dan Smolen: I don't remember this, but the phone call went home, and I guess they were worried about me, because… 128 - > Dan Smolen: What kind of a deranged mind would come up with… Garbage collector. 129 - > Dan Smolen: Now, I grew up at the time in New Haven, Connecticut, and it had city garbage collection. And every Wednesday… 130 - > Dan Smolen: At 7.

30 in the morning. 131 - > Dan Smolen: The garbage truck would roll into the back apron of our driveway, which I could see out my bedroom window. 132 - > Dan Smolen: And these two guys would jump off, laughing and backslapping each other. I didn't know at the time they were probably heavily lubricated, but they looked like they were having a blast, right?

133 - > Dan Smolen: And… 134 - > Dan Smolen: I was just having this conversation with my mother about 3 weeks ago, and she goes, why did you say that? 135 - > Dan Smolen: I said, because that's what I thought was gonna be fun. I didn't know what word. 136 - > Cacha Dora: Yeah, it looked fun.

You saw fun. Yeah. 137 - > Dan Smolen: It didn't matter that… 138 - > Dan Smolen: You were dealing with people's garbage, and it was smelly, and on a hot summer day, that had to be pretty ripe. 139 - > Cacha Dora: Brutal, yeah.

140 - > Dan Smolen: And these two guys were burying their pain in whatever hooch was in the back pocket. 141 - > Marion: Yeah. 142 - > Dan Smolen: I mean? 143 - > Dan Smolen: But… That's what we've forgotten as young adults, and then later as older adults, is the fun.

144 - > Marion: …. 145 - > Dan Smolen: of living. 146 - > Cacha Dora: Because you're told, right? You're told this is what success means, and you're told that you have to go through these steps.

I love that, Dan, because I… it… 147 - > Cacha Dora: I had that conversation with my husband, like, 3 years ago, because he'd been working up the graphic designer chain, and he just wasn't happy with it, and I looked at him, and I was like, what'd you want to be when you were a little kid? Like, I had that exact conversation. 148 - > Dan Smolen: kill you. 149 - > Cacha Dora: he wanted… he got two things, to be a guitarist and to fly planes, and he's played guitars, like, you can't see him, but there's a ton of… there's… I've got guitars behind me, and he just got his private pilot's license, like, a week and a half ago.

150 - > Dan Smolen: Wonderful. 151 - > Marion: We're very proud for. 152 - > Cacha Dora: Yes. 153 - > Marion: proud of him.

We're very proud of Mr. Kasia for that reason. Yes. Yeah, because it's been a long time coming, and it's… It has.

Like, it's listening, like, watching him go through this, and Kasha, like, you know, and seeing the pride on her face when he's achieved this goal is… is phenomenal, and…. 154 - > Marion: there's a couple of things that just, like, jumped to mind when you were talking, Dan. You know, firstly, I think there's a real cultural thing, like, I talk about this a lot, that contrast between being British or European, well, when it used to be European, but that's a whole other story, and, American, right?

Yeah, and American, right? You know, the. 155 - > Cacha Dora: We won't let you go, Mary. 156 - > Marion: Here, I know, I know, it hopefully doesn't kick me out.

The work culture here. 157 - > Marion: It's fucking wild, I'm sorry, it's absolutely crazy, right? And it's getting better, like, I think younger generations coming through, it's starting to kind of flush through a little bit. 158 - > Marion: But it blew my mind when I first got here, and these guys know, because 159 - > Marion: We all worked in the same place.

But, like, when I was, like. 160 - > Marion: my PTO was 10 days. I'm like, wait, what now? Wait, what?

161 - > Cacha Dora: the rest of it. 162 - > Marion: What's this? You know… 30 days? What was this crap?

You know, like… I don't… 163 - > Marion: when you grow up watching American TV, especially things like law shows, and you're like, why are they selling the office at 10 a night? Why are they whiskey at their desk? Like, what's going on? So weird to me, because that culture of work, work, work, till you drop.

164 - > Marion: is, like, st… 165 - > Marion: pretty far removed from European standards. Certainly, if you work in France or Germany, that would just never happen. 166 - > Cacha Dora: that gets prioritized as. 167 - > Marion: I suppose.

168 - > Cacha Dora: to a work…. 169 - > Marion: Yeah, real shock to the system. And, you know, it's something that I'm vehemently, like, always pushing back on, hence why I would say to Danny, hey, don't be logging in at 3 in the morning, because if anyone's work… well, one, you know, if you're hourly, then that's a whole other thing, right? But secondly, you know.

170 - > Marion: it's a big red flag for me, because I'm constantly thinking about, I don't want anyone working with me or for me to feel that they have to be on 24-7. 171 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah. 172 - > Marion: And… and… because it's so unhealthy. You know, I can remember years and years ago working 173 - > Marion: for an American company, back in my 20s.

This is the day of the Blackberry, the crackberry. And, I was based in the UK, I was in London, but, you know, as New York was waking up and I was going to bed. 174 - > Marion: my BlackBerry would be like, and it was like Pavlov's dog, you know, about like, you know, the anxiety was, like, really, really palpable. And I think that all of those experiences taught me such an important lesson.

175 - > Marion: not only that, but going way back to when I was leaving high school, that pressure of knowing what it is that you want to do for the rest of your life. 176 - > Marion: And… 177 - > Marion: I… you know, I grew up in, you know, very humble beginnings, and always felt like I have to work really hard, I have to 178 - > Marion: not… be a product of my environment, but I have to be better, I have to do more. 179 - > Marion: And, so I guess I pushed myself really, really hard.

And then I realized that I picked a university degree, didn't like… I wasn't enjoying it, but I… 180 - > Marion: sort of did it because I thought I'd be good at it and it would be easy. 181 - > Marion: And then it took me quite a long time of trying different things, and trying out various careers in different countries, and different work fits, right? To figure out, like Cinderella, what was the right fit, right? And… 182 - > Marion: That was a 20-odd year journey to get to that point.

183 - > Marion: Easy. And so something… yeah, and so something that I'm always… you know, I haven't got kids, but I've got two goddaughters, my nieces, right? And something that I've really drilled into them from when they were tiny, and they're now adults, is 184 - > Marion: Don't feel that when you're 16, 17, 18, that you need to know right there, right now, what you're going to do for the rest of your life. 185 - > Marion: Don't fail that just because society tells you that when you finish high school, you've got to go to university or go to college.

Don't feel that you have to go then. 186 - > Marion: Actually, take some time, have some experiences, feel what, you know, get a feel for what feels good for you, because that's a better use of your time than, you know, going through the emotional 187 - > Marion: car crash of feeling like you're failing because you picked something that wasn't the right fit, right? And that was my experience. 188 - > Dan Smolen: So I talked to you about that experience of the 5- or 6-year-old.

189 - > Marion: Hmm. 190 - > Dan Smolen: By the time that that child reaches middle school. 191 - > Marion: They've stopped becoming sponges for exploration. 192 - > Dan Smolen: The problem is that we stop feeding the sponge.

193 - > Dan Smolen: We're… we're not… Allowing kids to dream. 194 - > Dan Smolen: past middle school. Why? Because in this country, we teach to the test.

195 - > Cacha Dora: each approach. 196 - > Dan Smolen: efficiency. So all the fun gets 197 - > Dan Smolen: pulled out. We're not teaching electives the way that we used to.

198 - > Dan Smolen: We're not putting kids in music programs, whether they like it or not, it…. 199 - > Danny Gluch: and…. 200 - > Dan Smolen: You know, these… 201 - > Dan Smolen: The opportunities that they have as electives, if you take them away, and all that you have left are things like 202 - > Dan Smolen: You know, test prep. 203 - > Marion: Yeah.

204 - > Dan Smolen: By the time they… graduate, or are about to graduate college, they are so neurotic. 205 - > Dan Smolen: And so… Traumatized by this 206 - > Dan Smolen: Unattainable thing that people have put out there. You know, you gotta go to the good school. 207 - > Dan Smolen: You've got to take AP courses.

208 - > Dan Smolen: Oh my god, they told that to my daughter. My daughter, who is not only neurodivergent, but she has Ehlers-Danlos Hypermobility Syndrome. 209 - > Dan Smolen: And that nearly blew her circuits. 210 - > Dan Smolen: And I was the parent who was pushing back and saying, give her some space, let her figure it out.

211 - > Dan Smolen: Because what ends up happening is we create this monster. 212 - > Dan Smolen: We take this beautiful child who dreams and smiles, and by the time they hit their teens, they're miserable, because they're comparing themselves to everybody else, and nobody is happy. 213 - > Dan Smolen: And when it comes to… Their higher education, if that's what they decide to do. 214 - > Dan Smolen: they often are investing years that maybe pan out.

You know, my daughter went to a four-year… a so-called four-year college. She was on the 5-year plan, but she never graduated because 215 - > Dan Smolen: It was just a miserable experience for her. 216 - > Dan Smolen: a year or two off and decided, I'm going to nursing school, and she's crushing it now. 217 - > Cacha Dora: She found something that made her happy and gave her a place to thrive and explore.

218 - > Dan Smolen: Well, you know, Cassia, you're right, and I think 219 - > Dan Smolen: Also, based on the fact that she knows what it's like being. 220 - > Cacha Dora: A patient with some really shitty diseases. Yeah. 221 - > Dan Smolen: And she wants to make a difference as a healthcare provider.

You know, those times in the hospital. 222 - > Dan Smolen: We're very instructive, because she was like, this sucks. 223 - > Marion: I don't want anybody ever to go through this. 224 - > Cacha Dora: Right.

225 - > Dan Smolen: And she got to a point where she said, you know what, I really want to be a healer. 226 - > Dan Smolen: I want to use the experience of 227 - > Dan Smolen: what it feels like when the doctor says, okay, on a scale of 1 to 10, where's your pain level? And you say 13. 228 - > Marion: Yeah.

229 - > Dan Smolen: And not be laughed out of the room. 230 - > Marion: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 231 - > Cacha Dora: Or have it treated as drug-seeking behavior, when it's just…. 232 - > Danny Gluch: you're paying.

233 - > Cacha Dora: levels are. 234 - > Marion: Oh. 235 - > Cacha Dora: On a different… a different area, because you deal with chronic pain, not, like, your random…. 236 - > Danny Gluch: And….

237 - > Marion: I think it. 238 - > Danny Gluch: That brings up a really good point, and I'd love to hear… 239 - > Danny Gluch: your answer to this, because, you know, there's been, you know, and I think maybe it's a generational thing, or just with the popularity of, 240 - > Danny Gluch: you know, thought leaders like Simon Sinek, who talk about purpose, and, you know, find your why, and, you know, but we've heard for generations of, oh, do something you love, and you'll never work a day in your life.

Whatever, but… 241 - > Danny Gluch: I'm really curious of what you think the nuanced differences are between something like purpose, something like passion, and something like fit, and how those things overlap, because, you know, you know as much as anyone, the nursing work life can be really challenging. There are parts where that might be the right fit for a lot of people, because 242 - > Danny Gluch: You know, that style of work, that schedule is a great fit. 243 - > Danny Gluch: And others, it's not a good fit, but their passion, or that's their purpose, allows them to still find meaning and fulfillment.

But what are the differences, and what should people strive after? 244 - > Dan Smolen: Oh, wow, Danny. 245 - > Marion: Danny's the philosopher, he hits hard. 246 - > Cacha Dora: He does.

247 - > Dan Smolen: I think… Having a noble purpose is really great if that's what you want to have. 248 - > Dan Smolen: I have… 249 - > Dan Smolen: A very dear friend of mine passed away last week. He was 100 years old. He was also my first boss.

250 - > Dan Smolen: And he grew up with this really shitty upbringing. I mean, he lost his mother when he was just a few months old, and then he grew up in the Great Depression, and his father raised him, and yet… 251 - > Dan Smolen: He somehow had these wonderful influences around him, and he… he was a popular kid and everything. 252 - > Dan Smolen: And he… he got drafted into World War II, and he saw some really horrible combat, and then… 253 - > Dan Smolen: he liberated… several… concentration camps in Czechoslovakia.

254 - > Dan Smolen: And Norm was Jewish, as am I. 255 - > Dan Smolen: and Norm… 256 - > Dan Smolen: spoke Yiddish, which was the mother tongue of several of these people who were coming out of the camps, and he bared witness to their pain. 257 - > Marion: Hmm. 258 - > Dan Smolen: And it could have destroyed him.

259 - > Dan Smolen: But he found noble purpose in it. How did he do that? The first thing he did when he got out of service is he said to his father, I don't want to be an electrician like you. I don't know how to screw in a light bulb.

260 - > Dan Smolen: I want to be a teacher. 261 - > Dan Smolen: So what did he do? He got his teaching degrees, he got cert… he got a certificate, he became an elementary school teacher, worked his way up to being a principal. 262 - > Dan Smolen: I got to know him because he ran my summer camp, and I knew him for 54 years.

263 - > Dan Smolen: Throughout that time, His noble purpose, which started there and then went into teaching, was 264 - > Dan Smolen: I don't want a child ever to grow up 265 - > Dan Smolen: facing that kind of existential experience, like, I don't know if I'm gonna get out of this fucking camp or not. 266 - > Marion: Yeah. 267 - > Dan Smolen: I want to educate them so that they Make good choices. 268 - > Marion: So that they themselves are leaders who take care of other people.

269 - > Dan Smolen: And because of this, this enmeshing of noble purpose and work fit. 270 - > Marion: Hmm. 271 - > Dan Smolen: He found roles that fit his personality. 272 - > Dan Smolen: gregarious.

273 - > Dan Smolen: He loved being surrounded by people, he was a wonderful storyteller, it just sort of all fit in, Danny, and he was like… 274 - > Dan Smolen: It all came down to noble purpose. 275 - > Dan Smolen: And the work fit followed, I think. 276 - > Dan Smolen: He just decided, I'm gonna make the world a better place, because I've just been through hell. 277 - > Dan Smolen: I can't unsee what I saw in the camps in April 1945.

I can't unsee that. 278 - > Dan Smolen: So, I'm gonna take that experience. 279 - > Dan Smolen: And I'm gonna make the lives of other people better. Here's one thing he did at the summer camp where I worked.

280 - > Dan Smolen: He… enrolled. 281 - > Dan Smolen: Neurodivergent kids, kids with… … with, … 282 - > Dan Smolen: who were… who had Asperger's, who had ADHD, who had, … 283 - > Dan Smolen: You know, all sorts of affects, if you will, and he mainstreamed them. And he made sure that the counselors and the other kids treated those kids with respect. 284 - > Danny Gluch: So that 10 years ago, when we had the 75th anniversary of the camp.

285 - > Dan Smolen: The first person to show up 5 hours before the event started was one of those campers, and he said. 286 - > Dan Smolen: Norm made all the difference in my life. 287 - > Dan Smolen: Yeah. So, if you've got something that really drives you, and you say, I've gotta do this.

288 - > Dan Smolen: That… that can't align with a work fit. 289 - > Dan Smolen: Other people don't have that, and… 290 - > Dan Smolen: You know, Katja, maybe your husband was like this. He just knew he wanted something different. He wasn't thinking about… 291 - > Dan Smolen: you know, I wanna conquer the world, or I want to… I wanna do this, this, this, or this.

292 - > Dan Smolen: Some people just were… are like… 293 - > Dan Smolen: I want to live the day. 294 - > Marion: Yeah. 295 - > Cacha Dora: I wanna have it today. 296 - > Dan Smolen: Where my significant other and I can have a little picnic.

297 - > Marion: And I can go back to work and finish whatever I'm doing. I'll work till about 7 or 8. I'll come home, we'll have a glass of wine. 298 - > Dan Smolen: We'll go do something else.

And then once we put the kids to sleep. 299 - > Dan Smolen: I'll get back to my white paper. 300 - > Dan Smolen: Back to drafting that. 301 - > Dan Smolen: So… so purpose and work fit can… can align very, very nicely.

It… it… sometimes one will lead the other. 302 - > Marion: Mmm. 303 - > Dan Smolen: Let me answer your question. 304 - > Danny Gluch: No, it really does.

Oh, it's beautifully answered. 305 - > Marion: Yeah, it was, and there's something that really resonated with me. There's something about channeling … Pain. 306 - > Marion: and difficult stuff into something really good.

Like, I, you know, I talk about this pretty openly. I grew up as a parentified child. My dad… 307 - > Marion: Was ill my entire life. He had epilepsy, he had a brain trauma, I was his carer my entire life, and then he developed dementia when I was 17.

308 - > Marion: And I continued to be his guardian throughout, and then till he passed away when I was 36, and he was the love of my life. 309 - > Marion: And, when he died, you know, even when he was still alive, and then when he died, like, it was just… 310 - > Marion: a lot. I'm an only child, difficult relationship with my mum, like, there's a lot going on. 311 - > Marion: And, … I remember trying to… 312 - > Marion: Live this, like, tandem life of trying to have a job and have a career.

313 - > Marion: But I would leave that career… I'd leave that job at night, and then I would go to the nursing home, and I would make sure my dad had his dinner, and I'd get him ready for bed, and watch a movie with him, and then kiss him goodnight, and tuck him in, and leave him, and then go home, and, like, that was my life for a long time, and I can remember this bomb… 314 - > Marion: point of leaving the nursing home and standing at the bus stop, and it's pouring with rain, typical Glasgow rain, and just sobbing, and being like.

315 - > Marion: It won't always be like this. 316 - > Marion: And when he passed. 317 - > Marion: you know, it took me a while to kind of figure out, what is my purpose anymore? Because for so long, he was my purpose.

You know, and I didn't have kids, and I wasn't in a relationship, and all of that. And… 318 - > Marion: I think that… 319 - > Marion: trying to juggle all of that as a carer, and at a time when it really wasn't, you know, talked about, it was almost a little bit taboo. Like, I mean, it wasn't a shameful thing, but, you know, you had to manage your life in all of its forms, and concurrently. If you had 320 - > Marion: caring responsibilities, or you're a parent, or you… whatever.

You have to do all of it, right? And then… 321 - > Marion: something happened, and the world changed, and it became acceptable to be able to show up as you are, and try and figure out what the right fit for you was. And I think that, you know, going through all of that is one of the biggest, kind of, drivers and inspirations in 322 - > Marion: my, kind of, advocacy work around flexible working and my research and all of the things, the stuff that we do at Fearless PX, because 323 - > Marion: I don't want someone to be standing in the bus stop sobbing and thinking.

324 - > Marion: this shouldn't be how it is. You know, I shouldn't have to… it shouldn't be like this. And beating themselves up for wanting more, but still having to try, you know, I would never change a minute of it, my dad was the love of my life, but, like, it was really hard, and it shouldn't have to be like that, and so I think that 325 - > Marion: trying to advocate for greater flexibility and more compassion and more common sense, quite frankly, is what really drives me forward, and I think psychological safety, the work that we do, really kind of underpins that.

326 - > Dan Smolen: I… I'm so moved by what you just said, and… 327 - > Dan Smolen: And I can see where that… that really is your noble purpose. 328 - > Dan Smolen: I mean, you, you… You took the pain of being caregiver to your dad. 329 - > Dan Smolen: And… and took the things that you did very, very well, and are applying it to the work you do now. 330 - > Dan Smolen: That's a gift.

331 - > Marion: Yeah. 332 - > Dan Smolen: You know. 333 - > Dan Smolen: … But… 334 - > Dan Smolen: I want to get back to another aspect of WorkFit, which you started to touch upon, Marion, but… 335 - > Dan Smolen: I was made painfully aware of it when my wife and I 336 - > Dan Smolen: went on vacation in the Netherlands about 6 years ago, and we're on an international tour, so we're on a tour with people from all over the world. 337 - > Dan Smolen: And one of the people at our table was this very loud Texan dude, right?

338 - > Marion: And he's going around the table, and what is the first thing that he asks all the men? 339 - > Cacha Dora: What do you do? 340 - > Dan Smolen: Hey there, Bubba, what do you do? 341 - > Cacha Dora: It's an American identity.

What do you do? 342 - > Dan Smolen: and… I'm like… 343 - > Dan Smolen: you don't ask them about what they do. Ask them about their lives, ask them about their children, ask them about what you like about your day. Don't start with what do you do?

Now you just sound like an ugly American. 344 - > Dan Smolen: But… Unfortunately, Americans… Of a certain age. 345 - > Dan Smolen: That's what we were… that's what we… 346 - > Dan Smolen: We're conditioned to do, to identify with 347 - > Dan Smolen: the degree that we got from the Ivy League school. 348 - > Marion: Yeah.

349 - > Dan Smolen: the… job that we got, the executive training program we got at the big financial institution in Midtown Manhattan. 350 - > Dan Smolen: And then all the trappings. The car…. 351 - > Marion: And the wardrobe.

352 - > Dan Smolen: and the vacation home out in the Hamptons. 353 - > Dan Smolen: And the more of that you got, you just wanted more, and it made you miserable. 354 - > Dan Smolen: And I would hear this often as a recruiter with people, especially who were very elite. 355 - > Dan Smolen: Some of the most miserable people I've ever dealt with.

They would surface act how happy they were and how in command that they were. 356 - > Dan Smolen: But as I got to know them, I felt this longing, like, I feel like a hamster on a treadmill. 357 - > Dan Smolen: I don't, you know, one of those little… 358 - > Dan Smolen: Flywheel things that treadmills have in their little treadmill… in their little hamster homes. 359 - > Dan Smolen: That's certainly not a work fit.

360 - > Dan Smolen: That's somebody else's idea of success, and somebody is making money on… 361 - > Dan Smolen: The outputs that you're creating doing that 362 - > Dan Smolen: I was that person once, too, you know, when I was 27, 28 years old, working at an elite advertising agency, managing 11% of the revenue pulled through in my agency. Now, I was 27 years old, and I had that amount of responsibility. 363 - > Dan Smolen: And I said to my boss. 364 - > Dan Smolen: I need help.

I need a… I need somebody to come in here and help me manage the load. I'm drowning. And I did very highly complicated 365 - > Dan Smolen: Work. 366 - > Dan Smolen: And my boss said, I'll see what I can do about it.

He went to his boss, who really liked me. We used to commute home a lot. 367 - > Dan Smolen: From time to time, we both lived in the same town. And what ended up happening is… 368 - > Dan Smolen: His boss came back and said, we're gonna take care of you, we're gonna give you a new title, a big bump up in pay, and an office facing the waterfall outside, which they did.

369 - > Dan Smolen: And it didn't solve my problems, but it solved his… his feelings that I was working so hard and not being remunerated for it. 370 - > Marion: Guilt. 371 - > Dan Smolen: That's not a work fit. 372 - > Dan Smolen: Oh, by the way, I spent… 373 - > Dan Smolen: Many hours out of office at the end of the day on a chiropractic adjustment table.

374 - > Dan Smolen: Marion, you're not allowed to do chiropractic. 375 - > Marion: I know, I miss it, there's nothing better than that. 376 - > Dan Smolen: I'm hoping we can… I'm hoping we're… we're… Crossing a point here. 377 - > Dan Smolen: crossing a Rubicon, if you will, where we're never going to go back to that.

378 - > Marion: Hmm. 379 - > Dan Smolen: But little by little, we're gonna get people to own the agency of the day. 380 - > Dan Smolen: That's another way of looking at the work fit. 381 - > Danny Gluch: Which is….

382 - > Dan Smolen: do I own my day? Do I own my happiness in the day? Or do I at least have a little bit of it? You know, maybe I'm in a job I have to have because it's paying benefits and… 383 - > Dan Smolen: I can't walk away from the health insurance and the dental insurance and the 401K or whatever.

384 - > Dan Smolen: Is there something else in my life that I can own? 385 - > Dan Smolen: And if you're in a job that is 70 hours a week. 386 - > Dan Smolen: Even if you're at home and you're… you're part of a continuous workday. 387 - > Dan Smolen: You don't have that agency to do something, even if it's abocational.

388 - > Marion: Mmm…. 389 - > Dan Smolen: So having something that you can do, even if you have a job that you can't walk away from because the benefits are so important to you and your family. 390 - > Marion: Hmm. 391 - > Cacha Dora: You need a hobby.

392 - > Marion: I need to hug. 393 - > Danny Gluch: hobby. 394 - > Marion: Absolutely. But do you know what you were taught when you were talking, what was your… have any of you watched the TV show, I think it's on Prime, with Jon Hamm, Friends and Neighbours?

395 - > Cacha Dora: No, I haven't even heard of it. 396 - > Marion: you gotta watch this. So basically, the premise of it is, so Jon Hamm, he's, like, works in a hedge fund, very successful, you know, has… 397 - > Marion: had… 398 - > Marion: the big house, the lovely wife, the kids, the boy and the girl, you know, the expensive cars, the expensive wardrobe, the expensive watches, … you know, the 100 grand a year country club membership, all of that, very, like, you know, Connecticut-type.

399 - > Danny Gluch: Type thing. 400 - > Marion: And… He loses his job, … And… he starts. 401 - > Marion: Barclarizing his neighbors. 402 - > Danny Gluch: God, we got scanned.

403 - > Marion: Pretty well. 404 - > Cacha Dora: Burglar. 405 - > Marion: nuclearized. 406 - > Danny Gluch: Burglar.

407 - > Marion: Bartola! Bartola! 408 - > Marion: But he starts doing that, right? And… because he's, like, hemorrhaging money, still paying for the ex-wife's house, he's paying for the kids, he's paying for the golf club, he's trying to keep up the appearance, right?

409 - > Marion: And so he starts, you know, robbing his neighbours, and meanwhile, his ex-wife, who left him for his friend, right, who's now shacked up in their house with a friend. 410 - > Marion: she's doing some crazy stuff, she's, like, a therapist, and it… from the outside, it looks like she's kind of got everything together, and she's with this new guy who used to be a foot… like, an American football or basketball player or some shit, I can't remember. But, like, actually, when you kind of… 411 - > Marion: Go a little bit deeper, you realize how much of it's facade, and how much of it's masking burnout, and how much of it's masking absolute fucking misery.

412 - > Marion: To the point where 413 - > Marion: John Hamm goes through this whole thing, and at the end of the first season, sorry to give you a spoiler, but it's underpinning the point, he actually gets offered his job back after being sacked, right? 414 - > Marion: And he's like… 415 - > Marion: And it was what he wanted, the entire series, like, the entire season. He wanted his job back, you know, he'd be flying off in the private jet to go and do some big deal and da-da-da.

416 - > Marion: But Nyndi doesn't do it, and Niendi goes and starts robbing houses again, because he's, like, he's so… just… 417 - > Marion: like, realized how detached he was from himself in that thing, where he's sold a soul to the devil, right? And he can pay for the 100 grand a year country club, but actually, there was something really… 418 - > Marion: I guess, weirdly, wholesome? I don't know if that's the right word, but something. 419 - > Cacha Dora: Thrilling, maybe?

420 - > Marion: Thrilling, but actually, I just think something that was really… unpretentious. 421 - > Marion: About the robbing, ironically, as opposed to being 422 - > Marion: living this life that he just didn't feel authentically himself, but it only took from going through all of that to realize that that's what the deal was. And so it's really interesting to listen to your story, not that it's the same, but similar in that how much we mask. 423 - > Marion: How much we put on this performance, because we think this is what people expect of us, but actually we're fucking miserable.

424 - > Marion: And we want a much simpler life. 425 - > Dan Smolen: I'm gonna mangle the quote, but Jon Hamm in Mad Men. 426 - > Dan Smolen: said, what is happiness? It's just something that makes you want to have more happiness.

And… 427 - > Dan Smolen: We mask our… the, the, the, the… 428 - > Dan Smolen: The chemical stimulant is… is stuff that we get, and then we…. 429 - > Dan Smolen: It loses its cachet, and we just want more stuff. 430 - > Dan Smolen: I'm sure you've all felt this, … 431 - > Dan Smolen: Oftentimes, the most generous people that you meet are near destitute, and oftentimes the most miserable people you meet are… 432 - > Dan Smolen: Beyond Wealthy. 433 - > Dan Smolen: I went to college with somebody who… good friend.

434 - > Dan Smolen: Grew up in a mansion. Actually, he grew up in the carriage house that was separated from the mansion. He never saw his family. 435 - > Dan Smolen: He had just incredible luxury.

I mean, it was beyond my comprehension. And the poor guy was miserable. 436 - > Cacha Dora: Money can't buy you happiness. That statement's true, right?

In so many ways. 437 - > Dan Smolen: At college, one of the kids on full scholarship who 438 - > Dan Smolen: You know, had to work 3 jobs on campus to have enough money to buy books and cover expenses. 439 - > Dan Smolen: Would loan you his beat-up car if you needed to, to go downtown to pick up something. 440 - > Dan Smolen: I was always… impressed by that.

I don't know if impressed is the right word, but it… it… 441 - > Dan Smolen: Had an impression upon me. 442 - > Cacha Dora: Even to this day, which is…. 443 - > Dan Smolen: And I think it ties to work fit, that I think a lot of people want to give up 444 - > Dan Smolen: The trappings to have more positive experience and meaningful experience in their lives. 445 - > Danny Gluch: Hmm.

446 - > Dan Smolen: Do more vacations. 447 - > Dan Smolen: Do more spontaneous trips with the significant other. 448 - > Dan Smolen: Go to art galleries, Do digital photography? 449 - > Dan Smolen: Start a podcast?

450 - > Marion: Yeah. 451 - > Dan Smolen: Run for all. 452 - > Danny Gluch: I don't recommend the starting of the podcast. A lot more 453 - > Danny Gluch: And it looks from the outside.

454 - > Marion: Oh, Dan knows. 455 - > Cacha Dora: But, Dan, I… I think the one thing that, like, when we're talking about work fit, and we're talking about, like. 456 - > Cacha Dora: How we show up for work, but there seems to be this major underpinning of, like. 457 - > Cacha Dora: what brings people fulfillment in life?

And so many people, I think, are so accustomed to going through the process of, like, hey, I gotta go through school, I have to do this, like, they're going through this systemic checklist that they've been given. 458 - > Danny Gluch: That no one knows. 459 - > Cacha Dora: No one's a broad generalization, but, like, people don't know themselves. 460 - > Cacha Dora: well enough, right?

Like, Marion, you were sharing about with your nieces, right? Like, give yourself a couple gap years, right, before you go into it. Like, I went to FITM, and then now I'm in learning and development, and I always joke. 461 - > Danny Gluch: that while I started in the apparel industry, like, I found myself in learning and development, right?

Kind of like Sabrina finds herself in Paris. 462 - > Cacha Dora: But, like. 463 - > Cacha Dora: Like, I really did, like, I found the place that I thrive in, and I… the people that I work with, I thrive with and around, and I couldn't have learned that in school. 464 - > Cacha Dora: that was, like, a purely life experiential thing, and something that I learned, because of me knowing myself, and knowing the kind of outlook I have, the kind of outputs I like to make and contribute to, and I think that's where a work fit comes into play, but you have to have that self-awareness, 465 - > Danny Gluch: And we're not… You just don't have in your 20s.

466 - > Cacha Dora: You don't, and you're not really… it's hard to be taught that. It's hard to be taught that. 467 - > Marion: this is what I tell my goddaughters, right? I tell them, you learn what it is that you want by experiencing what you don't want.

468 - > Marion: And I went through so much of what made me miserable at the time, but I didn't know any different, and I thought, this is being an adult, like. 469 - > Marion: God is shit, you know? And then it was by being able to kind of, like, find, I don't know, courage or whatever, tap into that, and try different things, and realize, yeah, I like that, no, I don't like that. 470 - > Marion: And that's what led me to where I am today.

Now, like, I mean, I still maybe haven't quite found the entire fit that I want, but I know I'm a hell of a lot closer to it, right? 471 - > Danny Gluch: So, it is only through life experience, but I suppose. 472 - > Marion: We, you know. 473 - > Marion: We want to protect those that we love from having to go through some of the hardships, maybe, that we went through to get to where we are, but at the same time, that's what made us who we are today.

474 - > Dan Smolen: The thing that I'm watching going into 2026 is for those people who can't walk away from a corporate job, or just a job job, maybe they're teachers. 475 - > Marion: That's true. 476 - > Dan Smolen: And they got the 403B that's heavily invested and has been building over many years, and they don't want to walk away from that. 477 - > Dan Smolen: … my wife and I side hustle a vintage clothing business.

I don't know if you knew that, Kasha. 478 - > Cacha Dora: Oh my gosh. We're gonna talk separately. 479 - > Dan Smolen: Yay!

480 - > Dan Smolen: My wife started that Kind of accidentally… Oh, 30, 35 years ago. 481 - > Dan Smolen: And we put it on hold when our daughter arrived, and then it started up again. And now it is in full swing. Every weekend, I'm popping up a store somewhere.

482 - > Dan Smolen: And… My wife loves it. I mean, I like it too, it's something we share. It's not…. 483 - > Marion: Yes.

484 - > Dan Smolen: It's not the thing I would necessarily choose for myself. I love being a storyteller and a producer. 485 - > Dan Smolen: But my wife tells the story through… Clothing. 486 - > Dan Smolen: Yeah.

And accessories. 487 - > Dan Smolen: And for a lot of people, The self-determination of contract work Or a gig? 488 - > Dan Smolen: or a 1099 like my wife and I have, running this vintage clothing business, which… 489 - > Dan Smolen: To our great astonishment, just had its best sales day ever. 490 - > Dan Smolen: And we don't know why, right?

491 - > Cacha Dora: Luzzle. 492 - > Dan Smolen: Thank you. We don't know why. We think we know why, but, you know.

493 - > Dan Smolen: it… I, I think… 494 - > Dan Smolen: It will not surprise me as we go through 2026 and we see more people giving themselves permission 495 - > Dan Smolen: To cobble together… Either aligned or disaligned experiences that just light them up. 496 - > Marion: Yeah. 497 - > Dan Smolen: One guy I know is a wedding photographer. 498 - > Dan Smolen: It's enough of the weekend 499 - > Dan Smolen: That it doesn't drive him crazy, and he's able to do it, and his clients love him.

500 - > Dan Smolen: It could be somebody who does options trading. They love making money in any market, you know, and they get really good at it. 501 - > Dan Smolen: Which is something my wife does as well. 502 - > Dan Smolen: But I think more of us are going to have this 503 - > Dan Smolen: Crazy quilt of experiences, and that's gonna be our day.

504 - > Danny Gluch: And…. 505 - > Dan Smolen: It'll make up for any disappointment that they have with their main paying job. 506 - > Marion: Hmm. 507 - > Dan Smolen: And that's okay.

508 - > Dan Smolen: Because maybe that's just enough that that gives them ownership, Of something beautiful. 509 - > Dan Smolen: That makes other people happy, perhaps, or makes them happy. 510 - > Dan Smolen: And I think as… Being independent becomes… 511 - > Dan Smolen: easier to do, what, with payment apps, and the fact that you can file and create your own LLC pretty quickly, and not that expensively anymore? 512 - > Dan Smolen: How we view work 513 - > Dan Smolen: It's not gonna be the one-third of the day that we were told it was supposed to be.

514 - > Marion: Yeah. 515 - > Dan Smolen: It'll just be whatever it is. 516 - > Marion: Yeah. 517 - > Dan Smolen: And….

518 - > Danny Gluch: hopeful. 519 - > Dan Smolen: and hopeful. 520 - > Cacha Dora: I like that. 521 - > Dan Smolen: Because… Maybe you're not hopeful in your day job, and maybe you can't walk away from your day job.

522 - > Dan Smolen: And maybe this is something that you do that for one brief moment, Makes me hopeful. 523 - > Danny Gluch: Hmm. 524 - > Dan Smolen: makes me happy. 525 - > Marion: Love that.

526 - > Danny Gluch: Thank you. 527 - > Marion: Such a positive… Thing to leave… 528 - > Marion: it's such a positive legacy, I think, to have developed and then bequeathed to, you know, generations that are coming up behind us. Like, I have this thing about, you know, my profession, right? HR, where 529 - > Marion: there's a lot of things that are really fucked up with it.

There's a lot of things that are really wrong. And I… and I say this all the time, I hate HR people, now I'm one. But I… 530 - > Marion: I have this thing about leaving my profession. 531 - > Dan Smolen: a little better than how I found it.

And again, I think it's another driver for the work that we do, and the advocacy, and all of these things, because. 532 - > Marion: I think that… 533 - > Marion: you know, we have a responsibility to make the world a little bit better in whatever way that we can. And, you know, I don't want to see… 534 - > Marion: You know, people… 535 - > Marion: coming up behind me, and having to, like, still go through the same shit, because we didn't tidy things up, we didn't clean up after ourselves.

And so I think that it does tie back to that. It's about…. 536 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah. 537 - > Marion: you know, how am I going to make the world a little bit better for those that are coming behind me, and how can, you know, we continue to just make things nicer?

538 - > Dan Smolen: My hope for your profession. 539 - > Dan Smolen: is that… the C-suite finally recognizes what a golden opportunity that they have with cheap…. 540 - > Marion: Chief People Officers, Chief HR. 541 - > Dan Smolen: officers.

542 - > Dan Smolen: That it's not just about crisis mitigation, cleaning up the mess in aisle 5. 543 - > Marion: Yeah. But to…. 544 - > Dan Smolen: Be… to be purposed To… to support people so that They enjoy the work.

545 - > Dan Smolen: But more importantly for the company. 546 - > Dan Smolen: They're happy and they stay. Because if they stay, the revenue that they're gonna generate, or the cost savings, or whatever it might happen to be, is gonna have a longer lifetime value. 547 - > Dan Smolen: Right?

548 - > Dan Smolen: And I wish that more C-suites recognize the gift that they have already. 549 - > Dan Smolen: And to figure out how to empower these folks that they work with. 550 - > Dan Smolen: Who are highly trained, And are left to do… 551 - > Dan Smolen: Toxic spill cleanup. And that's crazy, who wants to do that all day long?

552 - > Dan Smolen: You want to make a difference, right, Mary? 553 - > Marion: Yeah, I mean, I was in a thing the other day, and CPO was talking, something that I quite admire, and she said, like, you know, when people say to me. 554 - > Marion: you know, they want to be in HR because they're like, people, she's like, shut up, you know? And I was, like, dying.

Because it's true, like, if you… if it's… if you're saying you're in this job because you're like, people, you're in the wrong job, mate, you know? 555 - > Danny Gluch: I used to tell my students, I had a lot of nursing students at the university, the critical thinking program was kind of designed for them, and… 556 - > Danny Gluch: so many of the students are like, oh, I want to be a NICU nurse, because I love babies, and I'm like, that you're… you're in the wrong business. You want to hold a bunch of babies while they… suffer?

557 - > Danny Gluch: Pass. Like, that's the job you're signing up for, let's… whew. 558 - > Danny Gluch: And that's a little bit of HR. Like, if you love people, this… 559 - > Danny Gluch: I mean, I love people, and I want to make it a little bit easier, right?

I want organizations to function in a way to make it easier. I'm, you know, I'm not gonna pretend like I'm good at sitting with people in there. 560 - > Danny Gluch: Their hardest situations, you know? 561 - > Marion: Yeah.

562 - > Danny Gluch: That's what we do a lot. 563 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah. Well, Dan, other than listening to your podcast, how is it, if you could give one nugget for someone who's trying to ask what my work fit is, and find that answer, and strive for it, and making it a reality. 564 - > Danny Gluch: Other than listening to your podcast, what's the advice that you'd have?

565 - > Dan Smolen: Think about your personal motivation. 566 - > Danny Gluch: Hmm. 567 - > Dan Smolen: Some people want to make money. 568 - > Dan Smolen: Nothing wrong with that.

569 - > Dan Smolen: Some people like recognition, nothing wrong with that either. 570 - > Dan Smolen: Others like to solve problems. 571 - > Dan Smolen: That's a big chunk for a lot of people. 572 - > Dan Smolen: if… If you are money-motivated, you're probably not going to get into a position that's administrative, where 573 - > Dan Smolen: you're gonna get… 574 - > Dan Smolen: a cost of living adjustment every year.

You'll be wanting to be in a revenue-generating type of position. 575 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah. 576 - > Dan Smolen: Conversely, if… You get stuck in a sales position, and you really suck at it. 577 - > Dan Smolen: You gotta figure out what you really wanna do.

578 - > Dan Smolen: when I was recruiting, the biggest motivators were money, recognition, and then some other purpose. Fixing things. 579 - > Dan Smolen: Being a teacher, Being a storyteller. 580 - > Dan Smolen: Figure out what it is that 581 - > Dan Smolen: lights you up.

And I'm not talking about a specific type of work, I'm talking about a motivation. 582 - > Dan Smolen: When you get up in the morning, what drives it? 583 - > Dan Smolen: What drives your day? 584 - > Dan Smolen: … I used to place a lot of people in sales.

Oh my god. 585 - > Dan Smolen: They… they would tell you very quickly, I mean, you knew when you had somebody who was a Dragon Slayer, and okay, we're gonna… we're gonna look at sales opportunities for you. 586 - > Dan Smolen: Other people… They tinker, or they're engineers, they like to deconstruct things, figure out how they work. 587 - > Dan Smolen: Other people… Want to be communicators or storytellers, whatever that happens to be.

588 - > Dan Smolen: If you have an idea of what motivates you, you can get closer to your work fit. 589 - > Dan Smolen: And the work fit is gonna evolve over time. It's not going to magically appear when you're 21 years old and about to graduate college. Yeah.

It may not happen until you're 40. 590 - > Cacha Dora: Right. 591 - > Cacha Dora: Or it could have been there, and you just ignored it, because you thought you were supposed to go the other route that other people have gone. 592 - > Danny Gluch: You're trying to fit your square peg in.

593 - > Cacha Dora: Yeah. 594 - > Danny Gluch: It's just not a fit. How many of us spent decades doing that? 595 - > Dan Smolen: Well, you know, in Pippin, find your corner of the sky, you know, it's the… 596 - > Dan Smolen: You've… you've gotta go through life with soft eyes.

597 - > Dan Smolen: And it's so that you can take in experiences, soft eyes and soft ears. Don't be so intense and thinking, I gotta do this, I gotta do this. 598 - > Dan Smolen: If we soften our eyes and our ears sometimes. 599 - > Dan Smolen: That the universe will talk to us.

600 - > Danny Gluch: Hmm. 601 - > Cacha Dora: Have a look at that. 602 - > Marion: Wow, a beautiful ed, Dean. Yes.

603 - > Danny Gluch: Gettin' overclumped. 604 - > Danny Gluch: That's… I've taught you. 605 - > Cacha Dora: Well, I'm so proud. 606 - > Danny Gluch: Aw, thank you so much for all of your storytelling, and your wisdom, and your insights, Dan, and just sharing your experience, and what I think is truly a hopeful message for people.

607 - > Danny Gluch: And I really hope our listeners appreciated that. Leave us comments, you can connect with Dan, find his podcast in the show notes. 608 - > Danny Gluch: Please, remember to subscribe to the podcast, leave a 5-star review, and we'll see you guys next time.