Your Team is Already Neurodivergent - You Just Don’t Know It with Tara May

Quick truth before we start: your team is already neurodivergent. Not ‘might be.’ Not ‘in a few years.’ Already.

And the real elephant is this: most workplaces are still designed like neurodivergence is a rare edge case… instead of the very normal reality of humans having wildly different brains, needs, and thresholds. In this episode, we’re talking with Tara May, CEO of Aspiritech - a tech services company where about 93% of the team is autistic - and someone who’s spent decades leading large-scale transformations in media and technology. Tara doesn’t talk about inclusion as a slogan. She talks about workplace design, psychological safety, and what she calls the return on kindness.

You’ll hear why ‘universal design’ often breaks down in real life, why choice matters more than one-size-fits-all solutions, and why one of the most powerful questions any leader can ask is simply: ‘What do you need to be successful at work?’ No diagnosis required. No performance theatre. Just trust.

So if your organisation is rethinking office space, pushing return-to-office, or quietly losing people who don’t fit the mould - this conversation matters. This is The Elephant in the Org . I’m Marion Anderson. Season 3, Episode 15: ‘Your Team is Already Neurodivergent - You Just Don’t Know It with Tara May.

’ Let’s get into it.” - > Danny Gluch: Welcome back to the Elephant in the org, everyone. I'm Dani Glutch, and I'm joined by my co-host, Cacha Dora. 2 - > Cacha Dora: Hello 3 - > Danny Gluch: And Marion Anderson.

4 - > Marion: Oh, I got relegated again to second. Good morning, hello. 5 - > Cacha Dora: I don't even remember what the flow was anymore. 6 - > Danny Gluch: We don't do introductions in a hierarchy, you should know that.

Otherwise, we would do our guests first, of all things. 7 - > Danny Gluch: As we should. 8 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah, so we do have a fantastic guest today from Aspiritech, Tara May. Why don't you introduce yourself and tell us about, tell us about yourself.

9 - > Tara May: Hi, yeah, thank you for having me. I'm Tara, I'm CEO of an organization called Aspiritech, which is really sort of a crazy, unique company. We have, 100 team members, and of those 100 team members, about 93% are autistic. 10 - > Tara May: So, we are passionate not only about tech services, which is what we do, but about creating workplaces where everyone can thrive and reach their fullest potential, and I take that advocacy with me and 11 - > Tara May: pretty much everything I do as a mom, as a board member, as a leader, it is… it is something I am incredibly passionate about.

12 - > Danny Gluch: That's fantastic. 13 - > Cacha Dora: So excited to have those conversations today. 14 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah, the reason that we had you on is the elephant in the org is that 15 - > Danny Gluch: our teams are probably already neurodivergent. We should not pretend that they're not, and we need to start building and designing teams with the thought that our teams are going to include neurodivergence, rather than, like, there's a chance it may.

16 - > Danny Gluch: Tell us about what are the odds, what are the challenges of having neurodivergence inside of a team? 17 - > Tara May: Well, let's first talk about the odds for just a second, right? I mean, when we talk about neurodiversity, we are referring to 18 - > Tara May: All of us. Every single human.

Because all of us have brains that work differently and affect the way we experience the world. 19 - > Tara May: About 80% of us are neurotypical, meaning our brains work roughly like everybody else's. 20 - > Tara May: And then 20% of us are what's referred to as neurodivergent, meaning our brains work so far outside the box, we either put a name on it or a diagnosis on it, right? Autism, ADHD, OCD, PTSD, anxiety, these sorts of things.

And… 21 - > Tara May: When you take those statistics and apply them to an organization, that's 1 in 5. 22 - > Tara May: So, if you have any sort of decent-sized organization, there's a high likelihood that you already have neurodivergent people on there, and certainly 100% likelihood that you have all kinds of thinkers, all kinds of brains. 23 - > Tara May: And if we want to help our teams and our people be their best selves, their most productive selves, their happiest selves, their most innovative selves, wouldn't we want to be thinking about their brains and how to help best support them?

24 - > Marion: You would think so, right? 25 - > Danny Gluch: You would think so! 26 - > Cacha Dora: I would think… 27 - > Danny Gluch: married. 28 - > Marion: Got it!

29 - > Tara May: I know, do we, do we… 30 - > Danny Gluch: He had the podcast there? 31 - > Marion: Mic drop. 32 - > Tara May: I'm a leadership management book junkie, right? As I presume many of you are after listening to your bios, and it struck me, after reading about 100 of these.

33 - > Tara May: I had never once seen neurodiversity referred to in any of them, and I was like, what… why would we not be thinking about the way people learn and communicate and socialize? It seems like such a huge gap to me, to not think about it in the workplace. 34 - > Marion: How did you… how did you get here? Like, how did you kind of reach this point, and what was the… the catalyst for you to create this amazing organization?

35 - > Tara May: So, I think there's, you know, a professional catalyst, and there's a personal catalyst, as is often the case, right? The two are so intrinsically interwoven. But professionally, I started my career as a journalist. I was a crime reporter in Roswell, New Mexico, and that was fun, and we could have a whole podcast about that.

36 - > Cacha Dora: Yeah, that sounds like a podcast series, just… premise. 37 - > Tara May: That's right there. I actually, like, saw someone get shot on a Tuesday afternoon, like, real story. But anyway, 38 - > Tara May: Being in print newspapers in the early aughts was watching the decline of an industry in real time, right?

39 - > Tara May: So I really became involved in digital transformation and quickly rose to become an executive because there was such a gap in people that understood digital and leadership in the print environment. And so my entire career was wrapped up in 40 - > Tara May: transformation, right? We called it digital transformation, but what I would say to my fellow executives is that this is really cultural transformation. If you do not convince people why we need to change, they will go kicking and screaming, and that is not going to facilitate organizational change, right?

41 - > Tara May: And so I became really passionate about leading people with kindness. 42 - > Tara May: and the return on investment that could come from that, and the innovation and growth and transformation you could see in a way that companies need at this time, right? So that was my professional driver for sort of the way I wanted to lead organizations. 43 - > Tara May: And then, of course, life intersects, and I had, my son's autism diagnosis happened in… I'm trying to do the math, like, really, really fast.

It was 2015, right? And he was pre-verbal until he was 7. 44 - > Tara May: And now, today, fast forward, I was just running to school to drop him and his twin off. He's a thriving 9th grader in 3 honors classes.

And so I really got to see, up close and personal. 45 - > Tara May: The capabilities of an autistic person when given the right supports. 46 - > Tara May: I believe that the supports we were privileged enough to be able to give him, the fact that I am near obsessive and researched constantly… Actually, I'm diagnosed obsessive, so I should just go ahead and, like, wear that. 47 - > Tara May: Right?

And the school district that we live in, right, we're lucky enough to have these really intensive supports available to him that aren't in most classrooms. I got to see him come to thrive. 48 - > Tara May: Right? And so it really became clear to me that it is not about changing the autistic individual.

It is about the world we surround them in. And why wouldn't that also be true? 49 - > Tara May: in the workplace. 50 - > Marion: Mmm.

51 - > Tara May: Right? Now, so just to, like, give credit where credit is due, I did not found Asperitech. Aspiritech was founded by two parents in the same position as me, and… 52 - > Tara May: Fast forward 15 years, they came into their 70s and were ready to retire, and were searching for the right person to take over. And to me, I got to marry this, like, professional 53 - > Tara May: belief system I have.

54 - > Danny Gluch: With this personal ethos. 55 - > Tara May: that I got to witness in real time, and… 56 - > Marion: Hmm. 57 - > Tara May: bring the two together. And really, I call myself often the luckiest CEO in the world.

58 - > Cacha Dora: I mean, that's just a well of passion. You can't even… that's not something you can manufacture in any way. 59 - > Tara May: No, I had to live that for 30 years. 60 - > Cacha Dora: Yeah, yeah, no, but for real, like, I mean, the things that drive us as human beings can't be manufactured.

61 - > Tara May: You have to have that fire. 62 - > Marion: Mmm… 63 - > Danny Gluch: So, I think one of the questions I have, and it's interesting that you, you brought up change management, and how, you know, this cultural shift towards the why. 64 - > Danny Gluch: How could we communicate that to organizations in the same sort of, like, cultural shift, need shift, to being more inclusive for our neurodivergent workers? 65 - > Danny Gluch: Sure.

Why make this big shift in how we structure our workplaces, our workspaces, our workforce to be more… not even accommodating, right? Well, I don't even know what word to use. 66 - > Tara May: Well, you're scared to use inclusive, because we can't talk about that word right now in 2025, right? 67 - > Cacha Dora: Make it inviting?

Is that the word? Is it inviting? 68 - > Tara May: So the word we use, I will share with you, is welcoming, right? We try to be welcoming to the full breadth 69 - > Tara May: of the human experience.

And I think there are two reasons that we're really successful at that. One is that 70 - > Tara May: When neurodivergent people Walk through a world that's not meant for them. 71 - > Danny Gluch: And I think when you have that experience. 72 - > Tara May: You don't want other people to have that experience, because you know what it feels like to be othered, and to not have a sense of belonging.

And you know how invaluable that is to your identity and your happiness as a human. 73 - > Marion: So we are able to create a really welcoming workplace. 74 - > Tara May: Because we know what it's like when that doesn't happen. 75 - > Tara May: Right?

76 - > Tara May: I think that is really critical to our success. Now, why would other organizations like to mimic that welcoming environment? 77 - > Tara May: That's why I use the term return on investment of kindness, right? And I think it is about kindness, because it isn't just about, inclusion, it isn't just about diversity, it isn't about equity, although I refuse to say any of those words are bad words, right?

78 - > Marion: Yay! Woohoo! 79 - > Tara May: But, it is true about being kind to absolutely everyone, because don't we all deserve that? We are all humans, first and foremost, after the layers and layers and layers of complexity that create identity.

80 - > Tara May: At the core of it. 81 - > Tara May: We are humans. Yeah. And we have as much shared as we do different, right?

82 - > Tara May: So what's… what's the business return on sharing kindness with everyone? 83 - > Tara May: The business return on sharing and kindness to everyone is a few things. One, it's retention. 84 - > Marion: Right?

85 - > Cacha Dora: atmosphere. 86 - > Tara May: We have 99% year-over-year retention, and we only use 99% because it's impossible to say 100. We are really close to 100. Well, we all know turnover is expensive.

87 - > Tara May: We know that turnover is costly to an organization in terms of hard dollars, as well as lost IP and lost time, right? So, just right there, you have a return. 88 - > Tara May: Right? But then let's also talk about the return on productivity, right?

Kasha, I think you were talking earlier about a study where there is incredible 89 - > Tara May: Productivity in neurodivergent team members But there's also incredibly great productivity in happy team members. 90 - > Danny Gluch: Engage. 91 - > Cacha Dora: S… 92 - > Marion: Team members. Yep.

93 - > Tara May: When you create a welcoming environment, oh gosh, people are happier and do more! Wow! What an obvious thing that has such an incredible hard return. 94 - > Marion: Yeah.

95 - > Tara May: Third point I'll make, and I could make a hundred, but I'll just make one more. 96 - > Tara May: We require near-constant change and innovation at the pace of Gen AI in 2020. 97 - > Tara May: If you want that, you have to have team members that are willing to try new things. 98 - > Tara May: And if you want them to try new things, it has to be okay when there is an inevitable failure that comes with trying new things.

So what's the culture that you're creating when there is that inevitable failure? Are you pointing fingers? Are you casting blame? Are you creating shadows in your organization?

Or are you lifting people up and saying, it's okay, let's try again, how do we fix it for next time? 99 - > Tara May: That psychological safety, that feeling of welcoming, has to exist if you want to innovate at the pace you need to innovate in 2025. 100 - > Danny Gluch: Okay, that's… 101 - > Marion: Okay, and that was the mic drop moment, by the way. Yeah, I mean, you know… Stunning.

102 - > Marion: You're singing our song. I mean, we say it very, very basically over, at the Fearless PX, but, you know, if your people are happy, they'll work harder, you'll make money. Like, it really is not rocket science, right? It's really absolutely, as we would say in Scotland, Billy Basic.

103 - > Marion: And yet… 104 - > Marion: We see… you get a lot of these, by the way, Tara. But yet, like, we still… 105 - > Marion: fail to recognize it. Like, so I… I have… I've worked in and around tech for quite a long time now. 106 - > Marion: And, you know, I got very interested recently, I think it might have been after or before we spoke, and around the same time, about 107 - > Marion: I wonder if what data there is about the likelihood, or the… is there more people who would be considered as neurodivergent working in a tech environment due to the nature.

108 - > Danny Gluch: feature of it. 109 - > Marion: the job, right? 110 - > Cacha Dora: Hmm? 111 - > Marion: And it was a hunch, right?

And so I started going down a research rabbit hole, as I do. 112 - > Marion: And, you know, there's a bunch of different papers that certainly point in that direction, but because, obviously, people are less comfortable or psychologically safe to disclose whether, they are considered or can even consider themselves as neurodivergent, it's very hard to have hard and fast data. 113 - > Marion: But, you know, it certainly all indicates that way. You know, tech likely does have a higher proportion of neurodivergent people, that, you know, than other jobs or other industries.

But it also, the research 114 - > Marion: To what you said earlier on, it under-recognizes the number, the volume of the likelihood of neurodivergent employees 115 - > Marion: And, you know, the perception gap is absolutely massive. A data point I got, an employer self-report says that, minus 3% in UK tech for neurodivergence versus employee self-identification serve 116 - > Marion: surveys suggesting up to 50% in some cases. Wow. So that disparity tells us something about visibility and stigma, right?

Like, straight off the bat. 117 - > Cacha Dora: Completely. 118 - > Marion: And the other thing, talking about the whole return to office crap, right? As you, you know, my research is in this area, and how, 119 - > Marion: how companies go about, asking employees to either, you know, be in office, be remote, be hybrid, whatever, how that impacts psychological safety.

And… 120 - > Marion: Companies that are mandating, right, these returns not only are straight off not being inclusive, right, for obvious reasons. 121 - > Marion: But when they are kind of saying, hey, but look, we've got these new offices, and they're great, and all of this. 122 - > Marion: No one's talking about, well, have you built space in those offices to support 123 - > Marion: your employees that may have different accessibility needs, of which, you know, being neurodivergent is a huge part of that, right?

124 - > Marion: And when I ask that question often, there's, like, crickets. 125 - > Marion: Because they're not thinking. 126 - > Danny Gluch: thinking about. 127 - > Marion: And so, like, it's wild that there's… this data is there.

128 - > Marion: we know it's happening, and yet we're so not comfortable talking about it, or we're so ill-equipped to talk about it. You know, these things are not coming through in office design, in return-to-office strategies, like, all of that stuff. 129 - > Marion: And I'm like… Why, people? Why?

You know, this, this… Yeah, it's cool. 130 - > Tara May: I can talk about why. I think I can talk about why. 131 - > Marion: Yay!

132 - > Tara May: Right? So I think we are going through a really… 133 - > Tara May: critical transition right now, and transitions are hard, right? So, I think that you have… 134 - > Tara May: an improving rate of diagnosis among children happening. And I say improving because, literally, that is what it is.

We are getting better at diagnosis. 135 - > Danny Gluch: for… 136 - > Tara May: I'll give you. 137 - > Cacha Dora: Boys and girls, because boys do. 138 - > Tara May: I'm gonna talk about that.

139 - > Cacha Dora: Yeah. 140 - > Tara May: So, I'll give you a really great example. My dad is very severely dyslexic. 141 - > Marion: Hmm.

142 - > Tara May: His first diagnosis in 1965 was his kindergarten teacher telling his mother that he was stupid. 143 - > Tara May: And a truth… 144 - > Tara May: that's what diagnosis looked like in the 60s and 70s, and 80s, and… you know, and he's not stupid, right? He is dyslexic. And I often find myself looking back and thinking.

145 - > Tara May: Who could he have been? What… what could his world have looked like? 146 - > Tara May: If instead of being called stupid, he was given the supports he needed to learn to read properly. 147 - > Cacha Dora: Right?

148 - > Tara May: And I give this example just to share that today, that same child, my dad, if he had been born today, would have probably been properly diagnosed, because we are much better at that today. And it's a story that tells you why diagnosis is so important, right? 149 - > Tara May: And I often tell people after diagnosis, congratulations, because you are the same person you were the day before. You just know better how to support yourself.

150 - > Tara May: So, why… why did I share that story at this moment? It's because. 151 - > Marion: Diagnosis is causing the transition, right? 152 - > Tara May: We're having more people be diagnosed, properly diagnosed, when 153 - > Tara May: BIPOC humans were incredibly underdiagnosed for decades.

Young girls were incredibly diagnosed for a long time. And when you are not diagnosed, you are left behind in terms of supports and resources, and that follows you 154 - > Tara May: yes, into school and into the higher education environment, but it also follows you into adulthood and work, right? That lack of support and understanding what your brain and what your body needs to thrive. So this transition we're seeing is better diagnosis.

155 - > Tara May: In children, but therefore, we are seeing a lot of late-in-life diagnosed adults. 156 - > Marion: Yes. 157 - > Tara May: And so, all of a sudden, a conversation that wasn't even happening before is starting to bubble up, right? And people are starting to say, actually, I would like some supports.

158 - > Marion: For my diagnosis, or my neurodivergency, or my unique way of experiencing the world. 159 - > Tara May: But workplaces weren't equipped for that. 160 - > Marion: Yeah. 161 - > Cacha Dora: Yeah.

162 - > Tara May: And so, all of a sudden, those things 163 - > Tara May: that could be so easy seems so out of reach, right? And Marion, you give a great example in the environments. So, building for neurodivergent people an office environment actually makes things better for everyone. You know who has an office is?

164 - > Tara May: Everyone. Like, absolutely anyone who's like, I want to sit at this open office where everyone can hear me and see me every second of the day. Like, we all hate it. And so, therefore, we all hide in the spaces 165 - > Tara May: you know, that are built for privacy, like, photo offices, like, I use… I mean, I remember being in an office, we're completely remote, so I've given up that, and I'm, like, a little triggered talking about it right now.

But I remember fighting for those spaces, right? Like, walking around, looking for that place where you could actually have a phone call or work in peace, right? 166 - > Danny Gluch: Oh, yeah. 167 - > Tara May: So I think we're in this moment of transition, where we're starting to recognize and value and talk about the need for neurodivergent support systems, but it is a transition, and that is hard.

All transitions are hard. 168 - > Marion: And if you just called out… 169 - > Marion: So I was just going to say, Kasia, before you jump in, I was just going to say, call out, we… we quote this again and again and again, but it's the most powerful… one of the most powerful sound bites that we took this summer from our Rethinkability series. 170 - > Marion: And it's from, Dr. Angela Young, and they said, you know, if you… if you build for the most marginalized, you include everyone.

And I think what you just said just absolutely underpinned that. 171 - > Marion: You know, think about who your most marginalized employees are. 172 - > Marion: Have them in mind as you build. 173 - > Marion: Everyone's gonna win.

174 - > Tara May: Your marginalized communities, neurodivergent, people of color, women… 175 - > Marion: Yep. 176 - > Tara May: Lower socioeconomic statuses, etc, act as canaries in the coal mine. 177 - > Tara May: They notice first. They feel the pain first.

178 - > Tara May: But you can make it better for absolutely everyone if you listen to them. 179 - > Marion: Yeah. 180 - > Tara May: And listening is a very powerful organizational tool. 181 - > Danny Gluch: Kasha, what were you gonna respond with?

182 - > Cacha Dora: I was gonna say, some of the things that both, Marianne and Tara were… were mentioning when we're thinking about the spaces that we're in, right? Like, we… we… 183 - > Cacha Dora: Whether we like it or not, we work and live in an ableist society. It's how our society is structured. So we have the systems that we live and work within.

That part, kind of, I'm gonna say, is what it is. 184 - > Cacha Dora: But that's also where it changes, right? Because, like, there is the opportunity to expand your mindset, whether you are at an executive level, a people manager level, a team member level, whatever, wherever your level is. 185 - > Cacha Dora: and shift that, and I think our workspaces are… are becoming… 186 - > Cacha Dora: a focal point heavily because of these later-in-life diagnoses, right?

Like, whether we like it or not, organizations have to acknowledge that the pandemic opened this door. 187 - > Cacha Dora: The pandemic opened the door for both these later-in-life diagnoses, thank you TikTok, 188 - > Cacha Dora: And just call that spade, that spade. But, but also the return to office impact of, okay, you've gone from remote, you saw the wonder of that and how well you were able to work and thrive and beyond survive. 189 - > Cacha Dora: And now you're going back to work, now with this knowledge, now with this diagnosis, right?

So how many changes have happened within an individual or within a group at the same time? And not to get, like, nerdy, but that everyone's at different levels of that change. 190 - > Cacha Dora: And our organizations, going right back to Marion's point, aren't equipped to handle it, and I find it so interesting because one of the things that I've seen an increase in is the conversation of universal design in our workspaces. 191 - > Cacha Dora: to adjust for that, right?

But again, like, how open and capable and welcoming and all of these action… mental actions are the organizations to employ those functions? Because I've had conversations of even, like, a conference room with these fluorescent lights can be really affecting people with 192 - > Cacha Dora: Migraines, neurodiversity, people with eye issues. There's all these things that, like, when you think about all groups and not the group that you fit into. 193 - > Cacha Dora: that universal design conversation starts to bubble, and it starts to happen more regularly.

And I think… 194 - > Cacha Dora: You can have a misstep, or you can actually have a really nice stride, depending on how you're approaching it. 195 - > Tara May: So, Kasha, I think you make a couple really wonderful points. One is… 196 - > Tara May: We have to meet the moment. 197 - > Marion: Right?

198 - > Tara May: We can't go back and undo 199 - > Tara May: the society we created. We have to meet the moment right here, where it is. 200 - > Tara May: But there's one fundamental premise that drives me. 201 - > Tara May: When we know better, we can do better.

202 - > Marion: Hmm. 203 - > Tara May: Right? So, if… 204 - > Tara May: It's true that as a society, we're evolving, and we're getting better at diagnosis, and we're getting better 205 - > Tara May: better at, demanding what we deserve in life and in the workplaces, and we've created communities like TikTok where we can share these experiences and talk about them, and the pandemic spurred change around so many institutional norms that needed to be challenged. 206 - > Tara May: Well, that means now we know better, so we can do better.

207 - > Tara May: We don't… Have to go back. 208 - > Tara May: Right? 209 - > Tara May: And… 210 - > Tara May: Is it easy? No.

There are layers of complexity, and I think you make an excellent point about universal design, right? I'm always a little reticent to use that word, because when you're talking about humans and our vast complexities. 211 - > Tara May: Universal is hard to find, right? You have people that prefer, less lighting, you have people that may need or prefer more lighting, and so Universal gets really hard.

So we talk a lot about choice. 212 - > Tara May: Right? So I'll give you a great example. At Aspiritech, we have tables set up with… and areas set up with different levels of lighting, right?

And they might be nuanced to a neurotypical person, but to a neurodivergent person, they might be incredibly apparent. 213 - > Tara May: And you can choose which area of lighting you sit in, right? We also provide a lot of information in advance about what a day or activity is going to look like, so you can choose whether that's for you or not for you. 214 - > Tara May: Right?

And so, there's a lot of, a lot of talk about universal design, but I think at the heart of it is providing choice, right? Allowing for choice. 215 - > Danny Gluch: ends. 216 - > Tara May: That's a really critical part of being welcoming.

217 - > Tara May: Right? Is allowing people choice. 218 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah, choice, autonomy, that's all wrapped up with trust and safety and a feeling of welcome, and I think that that really, like. 219 - > Danny Gluch: puts a good bow on it.

What's the opposite feeling? If you're an organization where you can't say that people feel welcome to work here, what are the other feelings they have? Unwelcome? Like, who's gonna choose that one?

220 - > Tara May: People choose that all the time. 221 - > Danny Gluch: Oh, no, I mean, I know they do. 222 - > Tara May: They're fortunate, but they. 223 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah.

224 - > Tara May: They're just… 225 - > Tara May: You even saw that. I mean, we see that with the tightening of the economy, right? Where these companies are almost making decisions that look like they want to drive people out, and 226 - > Tara May: I personally believe it's not just looking like that, that's what they want. They want people to leave, then they don't have to, you know, pay out severances, they don't have to deal with unemployment, etc.

So, yeah, I think there are 227 - > Tara May: There are a lot of people, I mean, politically, here in the U.S, we are… 228 - > Tara May: striving to create an environment of unwelcomeness. Yeah. Other, right?

And I think that's really sad and really unfortunate, but Danny, I think you hit it on… hit it on the nose. 229 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah, I… yeah, I mean, you're right. I was trying to, like, assume that, like, no one's gonna actively choose to hit the unwelcome button, but you're right that they do, and they do it again and again and again. 230 - > Cacha Dora: Elephants in one episode.

Yeah, look at that. 231 - > Marion: It was! 232 - > Marion: Yeah, I had a… I had a thought about that recently, because I was thinking about that. I was thinking about corporate America, and I was thinking about how organizations… and what is an organization?

It's a collective of people, right? 233 - > Marion: When you speak to people on an individual basis, unless they're an absolute tyrant, they're generally good people, nice people, want good things, they're kind, they like to help other people. 234 - > Marion: But somehow, when we become a collective. 235 - > Marion: Of a massive scale, 236 - > Marion: we start to develop this weird, complete opposite, and we go in the opposite direction, and we're not helpful, and we're not kind, and we're not, you know, as an organization, as a collective.

And now, that's a whole other conversation for another day, getting into groupthink and all of that. 237 - > Marion: But when you… when you… when you apply that kind of rationale through this lens, and think about, you know, we're… we want to be kind as individuals, we want to be welcoming, but if we can't get our shit together as an organization of people, as a collective to do that. 238 - > Marion: Then, to your point, we're closing the doors, we're not opening, and we're not welcoming, right?

And so, I'm really fascinated by that whole kind of, like, groupthink piece, and that collective piece, because 239 - > Marion: We have to think about how to change that. 240 - > Marion: And if we can find ways to change that, that's like the golden ticket to making all of this stuff fall into place. So, I mean, that's a whole PhD thesis on its own, right? No one… none of us have the answer for that.

241 - > Marion: It's… it's one of those things I'm thinking a lot about at the moment. 242 - > Tara May: But it… 243 - > Tara May: Yes, maybe it is a PhD and a thesis, but it's also action every single day, and if you. 244 - > Marion: Yeah. 245 - > Tara May: leaders and employees who are trying to do that, right?

That's how we're gonna figure out what works and what doesn't work, and… 246 - > Tara May: that's exactly what we try to build at Espirit, right? And do we have the answers? No. But do we have 20 years of… 247 - > Tara May: collective data and anecdotes on, how to build a workplace where autistic people can thrive?

Yes. And that's a good start, right? 248 - > Cacha Dora: Incredible start. 249 - > Tara May: We're one, right?

But there are many. There are many organizations that have figured out what it looks like to be welcoming, right? 250 - > Tara May: We have to strive… 251 - > Tara May: toward that, right? We have to work toward that every day.

And are we gonna get it perfect every step of the way? No, but, like, let's go, right? 252 - > Marion: Yeah. 253 - > Danny Gluch: something I wanted to… right?

You're talking about, you know, leadership, choosing to be welcoming, and choosing specifically to be welcoming in this way. And when you were talking earlier, you were saying that 254 - > Danny Gluch: when you know different, you can act different. And I love that. And it's funny, there's, you know, there's still debates in philosophy about, if you don't know, can you act different?

And I think that's one of the… 255 - > Danny Gluch: the key points here is awareness. And we have all the this day of awareness, that day of awareness. 256 - > Danny Gluch: And it… 257 - > Danny Gluch: They seem to be a little hollow, like, people are aware. We know neurodivergent people exist.

We know that they're in our organizations. Is… are awareness days and awareness months 258 - > Danny Gluch: What are we doing? Is there something we need to get beyond? Because people are aware, and we're still hitting the unwelcome.

259 - > Tara May: Every… 260 - > Danny Gluch: Order before the stockholder meeting. 261 - > Tara May: I'm a person of a torn mind about this, right? So, you know, I think, first, like, we as an organization celebrate Autism Acceptance Month. We do.

262 - > Danny Gluch: Right? 263 - > Tara May: And we call it acceptance, not awareness, like, no, we exist, but, like, also, please accept us, right? And I think there's power in words. And you're talking to someone who's… 264 - > Tara May: started their career as a journalist.

So, I do fundamentally believe that information is power. 265 - > Tara May: That you have… 266 - > Tara May: to, as much as possible, educate yourself, inform yourself, understand things. Because when you do that, you start to accept people. 267 - > Tara May: as they are, right?

A lot of pushing away is ignorance and a lack of understanding, right? So I do believe in the power of awareness. I do believe in the… 268 - > Tara May: Even bigger power of acceptance. 269 - > Tara May: Holidays are… fine.

I don't have any problem with them. They're just simply not enough, right? 270 - > Tara May: So, here's the analogy I will give. 271 - > Tara May: I am one of… you know, I think people are of two minds about New Year's Eve.

They either love it or they hate it, right? 272 - > Tara May: I am a person who loves New Year's Eve. 273 - > Tara May: I love it. 274 - > Tara May: Not because I go out and party, I don't.

I'm in my 40s. I don't. Like, I'm done. I love New Year's Eve because 275 - > Tara May: It is a moment when the world comes together and recognizes the passing of time.

276 - > Marion: Hmm. 277 - > Tara May: And they say, yes, the days are a collective. 278 - > Tara May: Right? 279 - > Tara May: But this moment, we are all gonna say.

280 - > Tara May: It's a new year, it's a fresh start. It does not mean the other 365 days of the year don't matter. It means we are coming together in this one moment. 281 - > Tara May: to celebrate.

282 - > Danny Gluch: Hmm. 283 - > Tara May: Each other, that we're alive, that we've made it through, and that we have another day to do it. 284 - > Tara May: Right? 285 - > Tara May: And… 286 - > Marion: Gorgeous.

287 - > Tara May: I love… 288 - > Marion: Very romantic, I love that. 289 - > Tara May: I'm a little bit of a… I'm a Pisces, so I'm a little bit of a romantic, person. I don't know what that means. 290 - > Tara May: My husband often points out, he's like, you are the most pragmatic, practical person I know, and yet you read your horoscope every day, and he cannot reconcile those two things.

291 - > Cacha Dora: Nothing wrong with wanting a little bit of starry magic. 292 - > Cacha Dora: We grew up watching Charmed and Buffy. 293 - > Tara May: At the point of life, there's not a little bit of magic. 294 - > Marion: Hasha… 295 - > Cacha Dora: Kasha and I are all about the woo-woo, Danny's just about the woo.

So, yeah. 296 - > Cacha Dora: I wish you all could see it. 297 - > Danny Gluch: Please! 298 - > Cacha Dora: That's what I meant.

299 - > Tara May: When I said I was a Pisces, they weren't confused, they were like, yeah, 300 - > Marion: We get it, we get it. Cash and Ira, we would consider ourselves a little witchy. Yeah, we would. 301 - > Tara May: All the best women are.

All the best women are. 302 - > Cacha Dora: But I think the thing is, though, like, when we look at all of those things, and I actually kind of love that you just even brought up just the concept of astrology, not because it's a moment in time or anything like that, but because it actually shows a lot of empathy. 303 - > Cacha Dora: Because you could read any horoscope at any point in time, and there's empathy involved, right? Every single one… 304 - > Tara May: Right, yeah?

305 - > Cacha Dora: You could read one that's not your sign, and it could connect with you because of the empathy involved. And I think the environment that you've been building and that you are, maintaining and upholding at Aspiritech is… it speaks of empathy. 306 - > Danny Gluch: And I think that that's something that organizations. 307 - > Cacha Dora: Strive for, but struggle with.

308 - > Marion: Oh, yeah. 309 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah. 310 - > Cacha Dora: You know what I mean? 311 - > Tara May: Right?

Like, I strive, empathetic person, and then I can find myself, you know, like, veering toward judgy on accident, right? Yeah. 312 - > Cacha Dora: Because you're human, right. 313 - > Tara May: Because I am a… I'm a wildly imperfect human, right?

And so it's not about perfection, right? It's about progress, and it's about effort, right? 314 - > Tara May: And are we making progress and effort toward being our best selves, toward being… allowing other humans to be their true selves, to creating that as humans and as organizations, right? Which is… is why… 315 - > Tara May: You know, time and time again, we survey our team members every year about what 316 - > Tara May: accommodations or supports are the most important to them?

What to be their best selves in work? We ask all the time, right? And I think asking is really powerful. But time and time again, the most requested 317 - > Tara May: accommodation.

318 - > Tara May: is kindness. 319 - > Tara May: Even my husband went and… 320 - > Marion: Over there, listening. 321 - > Tara May: And it's free And it's so simple. 322 - > Tara May: Right?

We try to make it so complicated, but it's not. 323 - > Tara May: It's just be kind and accept me exactly as I am, and I will try my best, despite my judgy self. 324 - > Tara May: You exactly as you are. 325 - > Marion: Yeah.

326 - > Danny Gluch: I find this button is so much bigger. 327 - > Tara May: Oh, it's so much bigger. It's so much bigger! 328 - > Cacha Dora: And luck.

329 - > Marion: Oh, nice! 330 - > Marion: It's not even the unkindness part of it. I truly believe that at our core, most people are kind and have really good hearts, right? 331 - > Marion: But again, going back to that thing of.

332 - > Marion: When we become a collective in an organization, shit gets in the way of that, and before you know it, bureaucracy and hierarchy and cost and all of these things. 333 - > Marion: like, they turn down the volume on the kindness, and they… they amplify all the shit stuff that happens. Like, I'm thinking, as you're talking about accommodations, and I'm thinking about myself, my own experience, 334 - > Marion: As someone with a disability, trying to get accommodations.

335 - > Marion: has not always been easy, and yet the people I'm engaging with are super kind, and… and they want. 336 - > Tara May: Finally! 337 - > Marion: They are trying, but the bureaucracy and all the other crap gets in the way, and so again, I think until we can kind of, like, just, you know. 338 - > Marion: figure out how to navigate that.

That will, by itself, allow the amplification of the kindness and the welcoming and the simplicity to shine through. And so I think that, you know, as a collective, we just make this overly complicated, to your point, and it really doesn't have to be. 339 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah, and I think that you brought up a really great solution of this, which was asking. Because I think that there's sort of a dance that goes on with diagnosis, disclosure, accommodation, and like, oh no, it has to go in this order.

340 - > Danny Gluch: And instead of just asking. And one of the things, this sort of, like, awareness and consciousness raising that you were talking about within organizations, I was always remembered of the… 341 - > Danny Gluch: the 70s, there's the feminist consciousness-raising movement, and it was very intentional to get into small groups and talk and share experiences. And I wonder… 342 - > Danny Gluch: a lot if organizations could have things like that just by asking. Asking teams, what accommodations, what helps you 343 - > Danny Gluch: Be your best self at work.

344 - > Tara May: So I'll make two just, like, quick points on that, right? One is, yes, the power of community is absolutely incredible and awe-inspiring to see, and I see it at organizations both big and small, and employee resource groups are one of the most 345 - > Tara May: Simple, free. 346 - > Tara May: exercises that you can do to really be able to listen to different communities and create different communities within your organization. And the second thing I will say about asking is I speak out to HR teams a lot.

We do neurodiversity training and consulting, and we have, you know, some L&D around that, and HR teams are often sort of the heart of it, right? 347 - > Tara May: And HR teams professionals are taught a lot about legal boundaries, of course, you know, in the best possible way. And what I remind them, and almost every time I talk to them, this question comes up, right? Well.

348 - > Tara May: what about diagnosis and privacy and HIPAA and da-da-da-da-da? And I say, you do not have to know anyone's diagnosis. 349 - > Tara May: Or even if they have a diagnosis. 350 - > Tara May: To simply say, what do you need to be the most successful version of yourself at work?

What do you need? 351 - > Danny Gluch: Yep. That's such a powerful question. 352 - > Cacha Dora: Women trust their answer.

353 - > Tara May: Trust their answers! 354 - > Danny Gluch: Oh, and I think that's such a big… talk about the feeling of welcome, trusting the answer versus, okay, now prove it. 355 - > Danny Gluch: Yeah. Like, that changes the entire feeling of what it's like to be in that organization, on that team.

356 - > Marion: It really does, it really does. As someone who's navigated that. 357 - > Marion: The feeling that you have to prove yourself, especially if your disability is unseen, right? 358 - > Marion: It's really hard, and so, yeah, just when people tell you what they need, just trust them.

359 - > Cacha Dora: And then be kind. Trust them and be kind. 360 - > Tara May: Backdrop! 361 - > Danny Gluch: I think we solved everything.

Did we solve it? I think we did cool. 362 - > Cacha Dora: It happens. 363 - > Danny Gluch: Let's wrap this up.

364 - > Danny Gluch: Oh my goodness, that was so amazing. Thank you so much for all of your insight. Is there any sort of, like, last, nugget or anecdote that you'd like to share that really can, help our listeners take to their organizations this feeling of welcomeness towards neurodivergence and just 365 - > Danny Gluch: Their employees and their organization in general. 366 - > Tara May: So, I will actually just cite, our head of, inclusion and support here at Aspiratech.

She's been here almost since the beginning, so nearly 18 years. 367 - > Tara May: And she says, in 18 years, there has never been an ask that she couldn't make happen 368 - > Tara May: For free, with a little bit of creativity. 369 - > Danny Gluch: Ugh, right? 370 - > Tara May: And so… 18 years of supporting autistic people with many, many needs, humans with many, many needs.

371 - > Tara May: never been something she couldn't do with a little creativity. So, but besides that, I mean, Marion and Kasha, like, trust them and be kind. 372 - > Marion: Right? Like, that's it.

373 - > Marion: Yeah. 374 - > Danny Gluch: And be creative. That's… 375 - > Danny Gluch: I like it. That's fantastic.

Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, everyone, for listening. You can find all of Tara's information in the show notes. Connect with her on LinkedIn.

Connect with us on LinkedIn. Send us emails, leave us comments, let us know what elephants in the org you want us to take on next. 376 - > Danny Gluch: Thank you, everyone. Be sure to subscribe, leave 5-star reviews, all that stuff that helps us get found by the Google machines, and now the whatever… 377 - > Danny Gluch: AI, Skynet stuff that is going on with the search engines.

We need help. Thank you very much, everybody. We'll see you next time. Mary's gonna edit that part out, don't worry.