Episode 65 - James W McBride

Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of the Conscious Hospitality Podcast. I'm your host, David, and today we're traveling to the very edge of wildness. My guest is none other than James McBride, CEO and co founder of Nihi Hotels, a name that has become synonymous with conscious luxury, sustainability, and transformational travel. James is a true legend in the hospitality world. From his early days at London's Governor House to the Carlisle in New York, and later overseeing Rosewood's Caribbean portfolio, he's always brought a rare combination of visionary creativity and operational excellence to everything he touches. But it was in 2012, when he and entrepreneur Chris Birch discovered a hidden surf lodge on the remote island of Zumba in Indonesia, that James life and the meaning of luxury hospitality completely changed. That lodge would become Nihi Zumba, a place unlike any other on Earth. In this conversation, James takes us through that story, but also through many of the different unknown stories from his life and career. And I'm so excited for him to join me. Today we'll explore the new definition of luxury, not as opulence, but as emotion, connection, wellness, and purpose. James shares what it means to build with soul, how Nihi's wild wellness retreats are changing the game, and why every future Nihi location will be rooted in philanthropy and place. Let's get right into it. James, welcome. What are you grateful for today?

Speaker B: Thank you very much. Well, I got to be grateful for the amazing introduction you just gave me, so let's just start with that. David, great to see you. And, uh, you know, I'm grateful for many things. To be alive and to be smiling and in beautiful Portugal today where the sun is shining. But I, uh, think in this world that we live in, to be healthy and, uh, fortunate to have a successful business and a wonderful family. I'm very grateful for every day that I've given. So, uh, that's what I'm grateful for. I'm a person that, uh, strives to live for the day every day and do the very best you can and really look yourself in the mirror and say, you know, what can I do today that will be better? And evaluate that the next day to see what you actually did achieve. It's not that scientific, but it's sort of, uh, that's my mental concept of what I like to do.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But it's definitely something that can be seen and felt in everything that you do, James. You know, and I know that, you know, for many, many years, the idea was to really bring Nihi to life and then to bring it out to the world. But I love how now the voice that you're bringing into the industry is, uh, at an even bigger scale in the sense that you're now trying to help inspire other people to look at hospitality in the way that you did a bit of ahead of your time a couple of decades back. And now it's an opportunity to give back at a grander scale, and I love that. So I think that this conversation is very timely and I'm really excited. Also, we were chatting a little bit before the recording. All those hidden anecdotes and moments from a very colorful and vibrant career that you've had over the last, you know, decades. So I'm really excited and grateful.

Speaker B: It's getting too long. It's a few decades. We get, we get older quickly, unfortunately, but hopefully a little bit wiser.

Speaker A: Indeed. Well, an age is also just a number. Right. So the way you feel, the way you behave, the way you, you know, it's. It's all, uh, very much, ah, relative. So really excited to get right in. We dive in from the very beginning, James. And so, um, every episode, I like to start at the very first stage of life. Right. Which is between the ages of 2 and 6. And so what was little James like very early on in his life?

Speaker B: No, I, I grew up. I was born in Pretoria in South Africa. Same, uh, as Elon, even though I'm a little older than him and way less successful or crazy. I'm crazy too. But, uh, Elon takes it to another level.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, and actually we went to the. To the same school, but. But, uh, at a different decade. And, you know, I, I did have a fortunate, privileged upbringing. I'm not going to say I didn't. And was exposed to some beautiful things and was fortunate enough to be taught many, many things by my, my mother. All of the embassies were in Pretoria at that time. And, uh, we used to entertain a lot at home. And I always just had a natural gravitation to welcoming the people or pouring wine or doing this and learning and hospitality and entertaining and taking care of people was sort of innately with me. I love doing it. And it's something of a trend that continued on. And, um, you know, even at 6 or 7, it always sort of fascinated me. And I love to take care of people, I think. You know, having a flower next to your bed or putting water next to your bed and all of that. I understood that nuance at a very early age and the importance of that element of detail. Detail is everything. And I have to say, I Learned, um, all of that from my mother. Yeah.

Speaker A: That's amazing. Those early experiences definitely shape us in a big way without us even realizing what's happening. Right. So tell me a little bit about that relationship with your mother, um, and how she brought some of these things to life as well.

Speaker B: Sure. I think my mother, who's still. She's 97 now and lives in Durban, so I go and see her probably twice a year, uh, and she still gives me a hard time to this day. If you this. If you too overweight or you've got that, or your hair's got. She was just meticulous and, uh, had a great sense of humor and loved to entertain in a beautiful way, albeit it didn't have to be in always in an opulent way. Uh, I think simplicity and elegance is often created by lighting a candle. You can light a candle at lunchtime. It doesn't have to be dark to light a candle. And, uh, you know, that small nuance and vibrance that's brought to life is so small and yet so powerful. So I think. And just manners were very important too, on every level. Boys, you know, stand up when a lady comes into the room. And so if my son doesn't stand, I try to embody those things and impart them because they are core fundamentals of manners. Her expression was always manners maketh man. That was a core, um, let's just say slogan. That's a mantra that she, you know, taught us that. That they were key and. And I think and. And always have humor and laughter and. And psychologically understanding. She, you know, I always remember there are a lot of crazy drivers on the road, and if you were caught in a situation, uh, in road rage where you had to get out the car and someone was about to beat you up, never look them in the eye. Always look at their top button. Because if you look in the eye, they. It can just fuse more energy and anger. But if you look at their top button, you're still looking at them and you're still engaging. But it could diffuse matters. And these small little things sort of remain with you forever. Have I had to look at the top button a few times? You better believe it. I've looked at the top button because it gets. It gets put in your mind and you're like, you know what? That's. It's pretty. It's pretty good advice. So they were all of these things, and I think just having the ability to, you know, to understand people, to make people laugh, integrating humor into everything that you do, uh, when appropriate, of course, is. Is always very. Is just important. And you know, I was lucky to. To learn that. And, and also my, My father, I think, was not to leave him out. Had a great relationship with him as well. It was the complete opposite of my mother, you know, was a wonderful gentleman, very, uh, more subdued and sort of balanced. Balanced my, My. My mother out to a degree as, um, as Karen, my wife now balances me out. She's, uh, she's like the father in the relationship of my mother and father. If you, if you put it in that context where she will shake her said and just say, James, man, you're crazy. Okay. But anyway, that's sort of. You. You need that. That backup and that balance for how you do things sometimes.

Speaker A: Indeed, indeed. And. And the gratitude for. For that. You know, my wife is similar.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: She. And in some moments I will kind of elevate her. In some moments she will ground me and vice versa. So it kind of goes both ways. Definitely. So tell me a little bit of what. What it was like growing up in Pretoria, James, what your early years were like, you know, past these two and six. But once you were starting to get into school and, and what were some of those activities that were attracting you at an early age, maybe in your middle school years, high school years?

Speaker B: Sure. I, I was always. And I think it's just. It's. It's always poignant to bring it in. As I grew up in, uh, the apartheid era in South Africa, which, or form was. Was right. And uh, you know, growing up on that side of it, you, You. You were in that world, but I don't think you quite understood the. The world that you were in. Um, and, you know, I, I always gravitated to have, uh, you know, Zulu friends, whoever they may be, the children of the people that worked with us. I always used to play with them and integrate with them. So I never. I didn't really feel that I spoke Zulu as well. And I, I, uh, didn't. I didn't feel. I mean, I don't want to say it was fluent. I could. I have a, uh, conversational Zulu and uh, and have fun and play and kick the ball around and ride a horse together and integrate and all of that. So from. From that perspective, even though it was in that era, I didn't really feel that innately within me. Uh, I went to boarding school very young. I went to a school called My class, which is a beautiful boarding school and sort of like the English system, uh, at a young age and uh, learned uh, a tremendous amount. You know, you all on your own and by where you sleep in a dormitory. And there were no cubicles or rooms back then. You took cold showers in the morning and uh, uh, you got, you did get bullied undoubtedly. But you, you had to deal with it. My first time walking. So our dormistry was at the end. For whatever it's worth. There's a book called Spud that's written about the school and the experiences and a movie, it's actually quite humorous and where it's filmed at the dormitory we slept in an old chapel. But you had to go through the older boys uh dormitory to get there. So you would go through that, throw things at you, hangers, hit you in the face, put a blanket on the floor. And as you're going at night to go to the bathroom, they'd pull the blanket and you fall down. This is meant to be an elite boarding school of which you had to endure some crazy stuff. But I hold no malice to it because it actually, it helped mold me and I love my school and my friends from. I'm still very close friends with several of my old, my school friends. It's got a very good uh, old boys as we call it, alumni you know, circuit as you'd call it in other places of the world. And then after that then you had to go to the army. I went to the army for two years in Potchester. Uh, so when I was 17 and uh, I was in the artillery, uh, and you know it was tough. But boarding school sort of uh, prepared. Prepared me for that. But uh, the army was uh, was a serious time. And again it was in that, that apartheid period of, of uh, you know, which the majority of let's say English speaking South Africans were opposed to. But it was mandatory. Mandatory that you had to go to the army. That's just the way it was.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And uh, that two years again, I think uh. Uh, I was just a regular trooper. I regret not going to officers school to become a, you know, to become an officer. But uh, just. It was really tough and I decided not to do that. And uh, in hindsight where a lot of my friends became officers, I think I missed a window with that. But so be it. But uh, the experience of being able to navigate and uh, many different cultures because you come from a boarding school and then you go into the army where you have got people from really all walks of life, you've got people that have never worn shoes before. You know, they, they all walks of life. And I I found that to be, uh, extremely fascinating. I developed many, many wonderful friendships from people from all walks of life. And that ability to be able to connect with people, everything was in Afrikaans. Uh, so I had my Afrikaansa to improve, which it did. And again, I think a core common denominator of, let's just say my successful period in the army, if I can call it successful because it was successful from a relationship and a growing perspective, was being able to connect and adjust and make people laugh and engage. I, by m. No means was, uh, the strongest. Or I did have an ability to actually run quite far. And I had quite good endurance, which even surprised me. And I've got quite long legs. And I was called lucky legs because they're very thin. So they're coming like they're lucky to hold me up anyway, so I, I always had a, uh, lucky legs and it was always humorous. But during my army period and a friend of mine, um, I retract a person that, that I've met briefly, I wouldn't say friend actually, just he swallowed a bee, uh, riding a horse and died recently in England. And at the same time, um, not the same time, but a similar thing I would try. I took a swig of a Coke and there was a bee in it and stung me on the tongue. And it was my early days in the army and I was so fortunate that I was near the military hospital that I didn't realize how allergic I was. And had I not been attracted with an adrenaline that was. Was game over. And you know, my life was saved from that. And I went to desensitization. Anyway, that was the army. And then I always had and wanted to get into the hotel business. I traveled to quite a few places with my parents and always loved, you know, love the hotels. And I said, this is the business for me. And, and most people that get into the business for that reason actually fail to be honest. You know, there's a. An abundance of nothing, uh, against the Lausanne is an amazing school. So is Cornell. But they get in there, then they graduate and they have to go to work. And they're like, well, you have to work seven days to the real world. And the real world they're like, no, I want to be in development. I want to be in this, I want to be in that. But I don't want to be in the hotel business. So I applied and I got an internship at the, uh, at the Royal Hotel, which is the best hotel in South Africa, that time in Durban. And you, you worked in different department My first year was in the kitchen for a year. And then you did what is called a block release. You went to hotel school, I think for two or three months. And I loved it. And every. The general consensus was there was no way that I would be successful in it. But you know what? I. My friends were at university taking the summer off and you know, I was working six, seven days a week, uh, working in the kitchen with crazy sous chefs and learning the business and, and with all the Zulu, the. The Zulu Commie chefs and so forth. And it was just, you know, innately within. Within my blood that I, That I loved what I did and continued on. That was for three years. And then Ali Kasiki, who was my GM then I was a, you know, very illustrious hotelier too. He was at the Peninsula. He was in many places, lives in LA now. He left and he said, you know what, why don't you come to America and, you know, see what happens. I can help you with a job or. Anyway, I went to America. He wasn't able to help me with a job. I had to find a job and given South Africa was in the middle of the apartheid era, uh, and I was, you know, obviously a white South African in America. You know, I. We were not greeted openly where people wanted to give us visas and so forth and fully, fully understand that and respect that. But, uh, I took many, uh. This is a good anecdotal story which, Which I will tell. My girlfriend at the time was South African and she had moved to America to be an au pair in San Francisco. And I went to go and visit her in San Francisco. And she lived out and I think place called, uh, Benicia, something like that. And I had rented this little room in an old dilapidated house, but it wasn't Pacific Heights, in a beautiful area in a very old home. And I was living with like 10 different people. And she brought, uh, the baby that she was looking after, uh, as an au pair to. Because she. She wanted some time off to come and see me, but she had to bring the baby. Cut a long story short. So she was tired and I said, why don't you take a, uh, have a rest and I'll take the baby for a walk. And so I'm taking the baby, pushing the baby down. I think it was Green Street. I can't remember clearly, but it was one of the streets overlooking the bay, Alcatraz. And I walk past this big mansion of a house and there's a man cleaning his Rolls Royce with, uh, a silk bathrobe. On cleaning. And I said, I'm sure that guy's not the driver. He's got to be the owner of the car. I really should go and ask him if he knows the most powerful person in the hotel business in San Francisco, because I bet you he does. But I didn't have the courage. Kept going. The stroller. On my way back, I said, you know, what the hell? I pushed the stroller garage. I said, excuse me, sir. Having an accent then. South African accent. In America, people love. They like the accent. Relax. Everything's okay. I'm just. My name is James McBride. I just came here from South Africa. M. I gave him the quick snapshot of what was going on. However, you have a beautiful home and car. I just wondered you possibly, uh, know someone very influential in the hotel business that I would like to get any job, for that matter. Not looking for any fancy job. I would start as a dishwasher. And he said, yes, I know Dick Swig, the owner of Fairmont Hotels. I'm like, great, Would you introduce me? He said, go get your resume and put it under my door. I'll be happy to. So I raced back, I get some kind of a cv, resume, whatever I had then, and I put it under his door. And I never heard anything for a week. The next week I didn't hear anything. And then on the front page of the paper, uh, of the San Francisco Chronicle, I see this picture of the house. And the house is. I'm like, that house looks so familiar. And I read at the bottom, and it's the guy's house who was going to help me. And it says, joseph A. Aliotto, indicted for fraud. And for this and his house, that's worth then was maybe 2 or 3 million. Now it's 30 million is getting seized. And he was the brother of the mayor of San Francisco. So I said, of all of the people that I chose to ask for help, I picked the one. I picked up the wrong guy. However, a week later, there's no cell phones. Then at my girlfriend, uh, at the Times, the phone rings and Dick Swig secretary calls. Unbelievable. So I go to meet Mr. Swig and, uh, and I have a conversation with him. And he says, you know, we'd love to help you, but can't get you a visa. I said, I know. I fully understand. And I. And I think it just taught me a great, you know, you've. You've always got to just take a chance. So he did call. The guy followed up. I didn't know what happened to him. But he did his job. And then I had a new technique. So there would be, let's say two Marriott hotels in San Francisco. So you would have a JW Marriott and uh, whatever the brands were, then just a regular Marriott. I don't think there was even jw and it was a one Marriott to another, maybe two Marriotts. So I would say, who's the HR director of this Marriott? And they would say this person's name and, uh, David Araya. And then I would call the other one and speak to them and I'll say, oh, no, David told me to call you. And then, uh. Oh, already. Okay.

Speaker A: And then actually the connection was established

Speaker B: and then the next way, what I would do, I would always go to the GM's office to see the secretary and say, oh, I'm looking for always well dressed. Do you have any effect? Because when they sent you down to the loading doctor where HR was, they always treated you better. Yes, because you were coming from the GM's office. So that maybe he knows the GM, maybe he doesn't know the GM, but at the end of the day, you still have to fill out your form on the clipboard. Yeah, but you know what?

Speaker A: You're coming from the executive office.

Speaker B: You've got. You're coming from the executive office. Who knows, you know what? Everyone's gonna pay a little Tetris. So I think to some of those, uh, anecdotal stories where I eventually got a job in Carlsbad, California at the first timeshare, probably the first timeshare development where this guy called Richard Fitchford, uh, hired me. And I, I didn't have a work permit. He hired me. I worked illegally to start off with and, uh, you know, whatever the pay was, I worked at the front desk. And you had a hotel and then you had condos. And the condos were getting sold. Uh, not condos, it was timeshare. So they're getting sold a week at a time. They stayed in the hotel, they did a tour, they got a toaster. And, uh, there was this Iranian guy working the timeshare salesman. And he always used to say, you like, you buy, you know, like, bye, bye. And he would just order these crazy things. And it was called the Carlsbad in Beach and Tennis resort. And when people had bought their week and they came from New York with their tennis rackets, it had no tennis court. So the people would say, where's the tennis court? We said, well, the tennis court's still under construction and this and that. However you can play at the high school next door, because the high school had tennis courts. So until three in the afternoon you can play there after school's done, you can't do that anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was, uh, uh, so that was the timeshare business, which fascinating business. And there was a gentleman called George Hochfiltzer who was, uh, the big boss then, uh, I guess he saw I worked hard or whatever, and there was a little hotel opening in San Diego called the Horton, Horton Park Plaza Hotel. And he said, would I come and be his assistant and, and work for him? But in the interim they had applied for a visa and I got a J1 visa. And anyway, so they ended up giving

Speaker A: you your ticket into.

Speaker B: Yeah, I got it. I got a J1. And uh, and then I went to work for George and opened the hotel. And my parents came to visit me from South Africa. And I had a white Ford Escort, um, basic, basic model of, barely make it from A to B. And uh, I said to them, you know, let's go to San Francisco, but we're gonna drive. And it was the middle of summer and the South African currency then was tanked. Everything had gone. It was like 15 to 1 or whatever. So everything was really expensive. And the Ritz Carlton Rancho Mirage had just opened. It was in the middle of summer, just opened. And this is probably in 1987, 1988. And I said, this place looks really good. It's about $80 a night. Let's stay there. So we stopped halfway to San Francisco and I said, oh my God, this is incredible. Uh, what a beautiful hotel. And, and the service and my pleasure and welcome and all of us. That was probably Ritz Carlton number four or five. And I called the gm, Wolfgang Bear, who's passed away a few years ago. And I said, Mr. Bear, um, guest in the hotel that gave you a little license that you were staying there, Jing, I could have a chat with you. I'm in the hotel business. Etc. Etc. And I went and had a meeting with him and he kindly introduced me to Ziggy Brower at the Ritz Carlton in Boston because I was going to do a summer program at Cornell. And he said, we'll speak to Mr. Brower and after that maybe you get a job there. And as it happened, I started as a management trainee in 1988 at the Ritz Carlton in Boston. So that was the journey. And ah, then the 14 years at Ritz Carlton and maybe opened 20 of them around the world from Boston to St. Louis, San Francisco, Big island of Hawaii, Maui, Pasadena, then first hotel in Asia and Hong Kong, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur. And then we did the first branded residences in America with Millennium Partners and Ritz Carlton when Marriott had just bought ritz Carlton in 22nd and M, uh, and in Washington D.C. and I went from Kuala Lumpur to there, ah, and started that journey and opening that. That's where I became, ah, you know, I had a very great relationship with Mr. Marriott because it was the first Ritz Carlton. They just bought it, it was opening in their backyard. Bethesda was close and you know, we had amazing residents, um, that bought there right away at that period of time. Michael Jordan lived there when he went to play for the Wizards. And Fred Smith, the founder of Federal Express, was one of our first buyers of the residences. And just really, uh, amazing, uh, people. And I think the price of real estate then in Washington D.C. was 500 a square foot. We started selling at a thousand a square foot and they sold so really double that, double the market proved the branded residences model. And was. That was the first one there. So sorry for the long winded answer, but, uh, no, no, this is great.

Speaker A: No, no, I love it. And then the whole idea is to really go through this journey, right, and hit those moments. And so I think that you've progressed really nicely into your time with Ritz Carlton before we get out of those 14 years. Because I know those were very formative and very important and it was a very special time for that brand, for Ritz Carlton. Right. You saw really the evolution, like you mentioned, the true essence of ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen with four hotels to then selling it off to Marriott. Right. So talk to me a little bit about that phase, those 14 years, perhaps from a leadership perspective, from a culture perspective. What were some of those elements that really made Ritz Carlton unique?

Speaker B: Incredible. I think just, um, you know, I reflect back in being a management trainee at the Ritz Carlton in Boston. And we had the staff meeting once a week and you know, we had hit our numbers. And what I mean, I was a trainee, not we. I, uh, was just a worker, uh, doing everything. I work in the front desk, housekeeping here, there, and everything was open. You know, the numbers were all shared with everybody. And if you did well, there was, it was celebratory and there was a. You worked extremely hard, but you really were part of a, I don't want to say just a cult, but it was almost okay where you were, you, you were, uh. And I couldn't have wished for a better company to grow up with. I Think you know, they were tough. Ziggy was prow. He's also may rest in peace. Tough leader. Horst was brutal. Uh, but they demanded excellence and, and they demanded excellence. And when you demand excellence, you know that that teaches you that that fundamental of I fortunately naturally had that I demanded excellence to a certain degree of myself. Because there's the right way and the wrong way. But when you are uh, with like minded people that have ended up joining Ritz Carlton and being with the blue cobalt classes and the lion and, and just uh, the power of that and I always just talking about the logo. You know I think that uh, Wolf Hanks to is it all sharp said once. You know Four Seasons and Ritz Carlton were always great rivals. Still are to this day. Even though Four Seasons are independent luxury company still to this day. Probably overall as a. As an edge. Edge on it. But they had the tree and Ritz Carlton had the lion and the Ritz Carlton name. And had Four Seasons started with the Ritz Carlton name. Who knows what would have happened? They started with nothing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And where Ritz Carlton started with a tremendous edge. And when you think about it that way, what Four Seasons has achieved is incredible. And I always loved that. That analogy of uh, of had they had the lion and the name and the history and everything that went with the Ritz in Paris and so forth and opening that. But you know, I think you were just given great opportunity. Um, you know, I moved. I went as I said from Boston to St. Louis. I did an opening, then opening in San Francisco, then opening a little after the opening. The reason I had to go to Hawaii after I'd been in San Francisco about seven months because half the people got fired there because they were in the Jacu. They had a staff gathering talking about employees. They were having a management, uh, gathering. And at the end of it they all had too much to drink and were in the Jacuzzi naked. And one guy got out of the Jacuzzi and went like this with, with everything bed and said welcome to the Ritz Carlton. That's true story. And it was like it was a guest. It was a friend of Horst. So this guy called Horst. Everyone got fired in the Jacuzzi. And then the closest place for where they could send some backup was San Francisco. So Uwe Amla called me and said, you're going to San Francisco tomorrow, whatever that was really like tomorrow. Okay. That's how we rolled. And so I arrived on the big island of Hawaii expecting to see palm trees and being over a black lava I'm m. Like, oh my God, what is this place? This is not Hawaii. Uh, it had a complete different feel. But then, yeah, then Hawaii. Then we opened Kapalua and then Pasadena and uh, then the Asian journey began. But I just think always just having that mindset, which is very different today, of where we went. We were told we were happy to go. We were told we were excited for opportunity.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And we learned and we listened and yeah, we broke rules and had fun and it did, you know, would always. In San Francisco, I was just reflecting on the story the other day where I was, uh, I think it was guest services director and Octavio Gamara, my friend, was the ballet parking manager. And those days you always had limos. They were always long limos in front of the hotel and so forth. And our bosses used to check. I think we were watching the NBA finals, but we were watching it in the back of the limo. So we were in the back of the drive watching the game in the limo because it was a safe place to be, right? Yeah.

Speaker A: Nobody knew you were there.

Speaker B: I know. Boss came and opened the door and we were in the limo and watching. Oh, no, no, we're cleaning in the limo. So suddenly you grab a rag and you like, I'm cleaning in the limo or whatever. But I've got, you know, just many funny anecdotes of all of those things that were, uh, just. Just fun, fun, fun stories.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then the Asian chapter was amazing. And we opened Hong Kong, which has subsequently been knocked down. I mean it was knocked down right next to Hong for 15 years after it opened because it just, uh, that's what happened in Hong Kong real estate. And then I think Singapore was a very, very big 600 room hotel. I was the number two there with Alberto Del Hoyo, great hotelier. I was also, uh, gone upstairs, but learned a tremendous amount from him and the team that was there as it was big and incredible. The Quee family who own it, amazing owners who own capella now. And uh, then I was given my first GM's job with YTL to open Kuala Lumpur, where we put a room at the airport and did all sorts of crazy stuff, which I've, uh. I think you may have listened to that other interview that I did of, yeah, going to Singapore and getting almost arrested and putting my name in the newspaper because we were going through the Asian crisis and just finding very crazy marketing techniques of how to market the hotel and have fun. And then Washington D.C. so that's sort of that those, the uh, the brief version of that time.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I. I love that you highlighted early on that, like, the leaders demanded excellence, and they were tough, but they were also, ah, people of that. That demonstrated, uh, a crazy amount of respect for the people. Right. And, uh, it was always, I'll push you, but with respect. Right. And so that's something that, you know, sadly, I. I did. My personal opinion is that we've lost some of that in the industry. Right. And it also comes from a new generation of individuals that are coming into work with different expectations. Right. Because of a different upbringing to the one that you had and the one that I had. Um, and, you know, there was this pride in being a hotelier. Right. And there was this pride, and it kind of elevated the idea of being of service to individuals. Right. And how do you think that that evolution has then shaped kind of the next parts of your career? Right, because from Ritz Carlton, you then moved over to Rosewood. Is that correct?

Speaker B: No. There's Grosvenor House for a while.

Speaker A: You went to Grover House. Right, Exactly.

Speaker B: A. And a great opportunity to run the Grove in a house. And I reflect back. I was, uh, you know, I was young. I was in my mid-30s, and this huge, huge business. There's a great story with that, too, if you want it. Yeah. On the. No, it's an anecdotal story. It involves peacocks and all sorts of things. It's kind of a funny story. You want to.

Speaker A: Love to. Would love to hear it. Yeah.

Speaker B: So I left Ritz Carlton, and, uh, I was about to take a job at, uh, in Rose in the early days of Little Dix Bay. And. And I got a call from Egon Zander, uh, and they said, oh, you know, we've got this. A great opportunity for the Groven House. And I said, I'm about to sign a job. And they said, well, you can't. You can't compare these two opportunities. What are you crazy? And I said, well, I have. You know, I've accepted the job. I haven't signed anything, but, you know, my word is. Is that this strong? It has to be. Your word is your word, and you've agreed. Anyway, so I had said no. And YTL were hosting, um, a Celebration of Life concert on Panko Loud. And I been working for YTL before in Malaysia. And they had Pavarotti singing on the island. And, uh, Tan Sri Francis yo. Invited me to come to the celebration. And of course, of course I went. And I was flying from Miami to Chicago. Chicago to Hong Kong, Hong Kong to Kuala Lumpur. So I'm in Chicago Airport and the phone rings again and it's the headhunter. And they say, uh, James, the Grosvenor House really want to meet you. Are you sure you don't want to do this? It's a huge hotel, massive opportunity. They want to invest £100 million and redo the whole place. And it's a great, great. And, um, I'm. I looked up at the, at the airline board and I saw their. London, London, London. And I said, okay, if. If you buy me a ticket to, to London now, I will go, but then you need to buy me a ticket to go to Kuala Lumpur because I have to continue on as it. Give us 10 minutes. I said, okay. So going back in 10 minutes. I said, done. Fine. So now I don't have a suit or anything because I'm going to go to an island in Malaysia. So I. The flight was maybe four hours later. They take the train into Chicago, get a blazer, get a tie, get back on, get on the plane. And I. And. And I don't know if they've emailed in or whatever. Yeah, I guess they did. So I get the ticket, and it's a first class ticket. I'm like, oh, my God. I wasn't coached fully. And I said, regardless what happens here, I'm gonna meet the guy. And first. First class to Kuala Lumpur. I said, regardless. This was a great move. Yeah, just a great move. So I arrive in London and I meet, uh, the number two to Yogan Bartels. I can't remember his name right now, but he was the CEO of Meridian. Great meeting. I land up in Kuala Lumpur, I'm tired, and I get a call from the head. I said, they loved you, James. And I said, you know what? I don't think I can do this. And they said, well, one is like a sparrow in your hand, and the other is a peacock. How could you be, like, saying no to the peacock? I'm like, well, just the way it is. And, uh, I wake up the next morning in Pankola. I open the curtains, and on my terrace is a peacock. Because they have peacocks there. Yeah. Uh, so there's a peacock. So I'm like, this is a sign, man. I got a call. So I call, uh, I call them up and I said, there's a peacock on my terrace. I think I have to continue talking to them. This is a message.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they said, okay, good. But now you got to fly back to New York and meet Jurgen Bartels at Kennedy Airport, whatever. First class lounge, like 48 hours later. So they buy me a ticket to go back. I fly all the way back. I meet Jurgen hotels. We do the deal and I shake hands. He says we would like to hire you. And I'm like, oh my God, what am I going to do do now with uh, with the rose and little dick spay. And I'm like, you know what I think I. You just need to go and fly and go and see them. It's the only way to do it. And this is the message for the listeners or whatever is that just deal with it and deal with it in the best way you can.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I flew to St. Louis, I met Flip Merits and uh, you know, he said I completely understand. You made the right decision. Decision.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Okay. And then who called me a year and a half later to go to the carow Flip Merits.

Speaker A: Because of that decision?

Speaker B: No, because of how.

Speaker A: Because of the way that you handled it.

Speaker B: And then I you know I went with uh, uh, and met Lou Wolf and Mickey Drexler who was then the CEO. I just taken over J. Crew and he was on the board of the car. Had to meet them all. And then the. The Rosewood journey started the car out because we actually were going bankrupt and not going to deploy the 100 million. It was with Nomura and with. With Guy uh, Hands his company Terraforma. Ah Meridian. It was so complicated. But you know the great room then did about 28 million pounds. The biggest pillarless ballroom in Europe. It was a great experience. But uh, it didn't continue. Then everyone was vying to get the Gravenhaus management contract Fairmont that Mr. Marriott was calling me because it's such a huge business and it ended up as a Marriott and uh, they, they divided it up. But my Carlisle journey started then and was at the Carlisle then a year or two later was given the Caribbean and the Innovanasazi. When a lot of the Merits Wolf uh. Merits Wolf owned 50 of Rosewood.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And quite uh, a few of their assets. And you know John Scott was the CEO then and Pablo was the coo who's unfortunately also left us who was a dear friend and. And I had a. You know wonderful my seven years there at that the Carlisle and just met extraordinary people. I just reading Barry Diller's book now who knew you know he lives at the Carlisle and just reading his story and knowing him and Sumner Redstone story of that he lived there too. And you read these books later in life of, of these extraordinary people and uh, that you, you know from a service perspective and then you read their stories and um, you know, it, the cross, the call out was a, a very big crossroads in my life. And that's where I met, as you mentioned, Chris Birch. When Chris divorced, uh, Tory, he moved from the pier to the Carlisle.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: A friend of a friend, a friend of his, a good friend of mine called me to look after him and, and I did and we became great friends and he's become an amazing partner. And he's the one who called me about Sumba when I was the president of ytl.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: Didn't know where Sumba was. I didn't know any. I had to go and look at it and it was, I had to Google it. You could only go there once a week and you know, anecdotally flipped on Anna, who's now the chairman of Sisley Cosmetics. Uh, we did the first Sisley Spa at the Carlisle with him. And he was always telling me this place he goes surfing and I'm not a surfer. So I kind of went in one ear and after other. And then on the first trip there on the charter, when I went to go and look at it for Chris when I was in Singapore. Who's on the plane? Philip Donano. I'm like, philip, what are you doing? This is the place I was telling you about.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And that's because of the surfing and the wave and you know, that's so that sort of was like, oh my God. This is like, you know, kismet or whatever how this all sort of ties, ties together.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's the amazing part of uh, of how the universe works. Right. And how life works is that when you look at things forwards, you know, you connect the do dots forward. You don't, you don't see it. Right. But the moment you start connecting the dots backwards, right. Those moments like the peacock showing up in your terrace is such a, it's such a life defining moment. Because had you not seen that?

Speaker B: You know, but it's, it's so true. I think another life defining moment is reflecting, uh, back because Fred Smith just died.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Founder of Federal Express. Well, I spent quite a lot of time with Mr. Smith and you know, when he's bought an apartment and he lived in Washington and we developed a nice relationship and uh, he invited me to go to the Redskins Cowboys game in FedEx Field. And Mr. Marriott was having his granddaughter's christening at the Ritz Carlton in the club lounge. And in my uh, uh, lack of wisdom, I decided to go with uh, Mr. Smith to the, his box in FedEx field while I'm watching the game. I'm not really a big football game, but you know my justification, Humans always self justify, always. We always like oh, this is Mr. Smith, he owns a big apartment. He's the very important man. Definitely more important to go to the football game than be where the chairman and owner of Marriott is having his christening at the hotel.

Speaker A: In the hotel, yes.

Speaker B: But then self justifiable, of course, I'm very important. I need to go in the cell. All hell breaks loose with the christening. They run out of food, it's a disaster. And the phone is ringing and there's no more filet mignon and this. And then I'm like oh my God, this is, you know, what, what are you gonna do? So of course I, I can't leave because I'm with uh, Mr. Smith and it's already kind of over by the time it gets there. But I, I did have that feeling when I was making the decision, you know, I, Mr. M. Marriott is going to be there. Of course I need to be there. M. But it was a self justification, was like oh no, this is very important, I'm gonna go there. So I made the wrong decision. And uh, I always reflect upon that, that I don't, I never made the wrong decision again when it came to anything to remotely to do with that. Because your core responsibility of what you need to do is your backyard and you take care of your fundamental business of what it is. And I, I, I think that's the first time I've told that story in a long time. But it's because he just died. It just reflected back of how he through Memphis created the, for, you know, really created the foundation and the fundamentals for all package delivery. And he, I think he was at Yale, Harvard Business maybe failed him on his thesis because that was his thesis.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: And just, just what he created and what he did and everything was just unbelievable. And uh, anyway, there was a little sidebar.

Speaker A: It's something uh, that you mentioned, you know, is this idea of responsibility, right. And it's, it's so easy in the hospitality industry. And I've been victim to this as well. I shouldn't say victim. I've been, I've fallen for it as well. Let's say is, is that you are in front of a lot of exciting opportunities in front of a lot of exciting people that have done really great things. And so you tend to get pulled and particularly if you get to a Higher level in the industry you tend to get invited to these moments into these special situations and this uh, this, this kind of battle between the responsibility of what's happening in your own backyard and then all the things that you could be exposed to is something that just frequently is a uh.

Speaker B: You know the person who gave me the best example of that without a doubt was Simon Cooper, old CEO of Ritz Carlton, amazing leader and gentleman. Well, a lot of people have gone upstairs that we've been talking about. They've all uh, died too young or early or whatever. But his was the best orchestra audience. As a leader in our business, you're in the orchestra and then you're in the audience and it's having the ability to choose which one you are in at a specific time because you always going back and forth and if you think you are always in the, in the audience, you're going to go down because it's, it's, it's not your life and your world. And I think we, where people get confused is. And I've just seen it and I've. Luckily I've never felt victim to it is that you know, they, they end up taking a uh, very wealthy customer guest out to dinner and feel obligated that you know, they need to order Sasagaya because that's what that person drinks. No, it's inappropriate.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: You, you order what you can afford and what the business can afford and you do the right thing and uh, because it's orchestra, audience and that's not your decision to make.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think there's a lot, a lot of clouded, uh, clouded vision when it, when it comes to that.

Speaker A: And um, I'm curious in your perspective James, because there's now takes me a little bit into kind of how we won't necessarily tell the entire story of Nihi. Right. But I've been told a lot.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But what I want to focus on is this transformation, this idea of like this new type of hospitality that Nihi is bringing, right. Where there's, you know, it starts with this idea of blurring some of that line between the audience and the orchestra. Right. Because what it does is it, it creates a level of respect, responsibility from the audience. Right. The audience co. Creates in this, in the play.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: They're a lot more hands on, involved in the experience, a lot more tactile and thus the people that are working in that type of environment and experience tend to co create the experience with the guests. Right. So your team is uh, of course providing service but they're also bringing them into a, uh, completely different magnificent landscape, which is Nikki. But also into their world, into the culture of the place as well. Right. So how, how. Talk to me a little bit about how that transformative experience, transformative hospitality is shaping and how, you know, your team is able to kind of blend that idea of like, I'm gonna give you amazing service but at the same time we're gonna co create an experience together.

Speaker B: No, I think he framed it very well. Um, so the knee pieces firstly was founded on an extraordinary exotic location. The island of Sumba, which is two and a half times bigger than Bali, it's the size of Puerto Rico or Jamaica. And Nihiwatu, as it was, was the only resort, uh, there surf centric, mostly focused on, I think it had 10 or 12 rooms to start off with. Founded by Claude and Petra Graves, who did an amazing job doing that and was acquired by, uh, Chris Birch, with me supporting him, uh, in 2012. But the fundamental already then was, uh, the Sumba foundation, which has now evolved into where we've got the Sumba Foundation. English goes to Kampong, the Sumba, uh, Hospitality Foundation School under the umbrella of the Birch family Foundation. But the Sumba foundation was, um, when you are in a very poor environment and it's not your land or country and children are dying of malaria and they don't have water, you know, that had to be formed to create some sort of a balance to, you know, what was going on in building a resort, um, and the lives that they were living. And it sort of created peace to where you wouldn't have your head cut off because you were living in different lives. And that was Priyas. And then from 2012 onwards, you know, uh, Chris Birch took a large lead role in supporting, growing and funding the foundation. And it's continued on to where, you know, it's raising almost $202 million a year, which is funded mostly by guests. And uh, that's. And then you've got the derivative other foundations that uh, operate within it. So you've got that, you got surfing. And then the other huge part of me is the horses. The horses have become sort of some of the most famous horses in the world, um, because of our digital presence. And then Wild wellness, as you mentioned in the beginning. Uh, be wild, be well, be free. Which is in the Spa Safari. The Spa Safari is 100 acres. It's a 15 minute drive from the hotel. You can go there on e bike, you can hike, you can drive, or you can go on Horseback and you do a half day or full day spa safari. And as it's evolved, you know, our retired horses have gone there and you'll see on our Instagram page and that way we've got equine therapy of when equine sanctuary. The horses actually engage with you while you're having a treatment. It's unbelievable. It's really, really. And it's all, it's all just a. It was never planned that way. Things have just happened that way. But to get uh, to your question properly, that this has become a, you know, a way of a, uh, a hospitality route that people want to focus on and do. Yeah, I, yes and no. Um, I still think we're very, very unique because we actually, we actually do it and we do it with love and we do it correctly. It's not done for uh, it's not done for commercial gain and it's not, it's not done for marketing. We don't say we green. And I hate the word eco because it just means. It's just you want to save money generally. Um, it is a, ah. It is true passion and it, and it crosses every boundary and it's real. And as you say, when we put the music on, the Sumbanese are the first to get on the bar and to get the guest to dance. And the integration of where the sun is, teaching people about the culture and engaging with the guests in a non formal way. It's very unlike a Ritz Carlton and experience or anything. And that it's in many ways, I call it perfectly imperfect. It's by no means perfect. Yes. And you know, we just had the, you know, the LQA or whatever it's called, coming to give you a score with leading hotels of the world. And they said, well, the person didn't say while you walking to your villa, how many nights you staying for and when you're checking out. Well, it's irrelevant. Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You don't come there to be told. There's just these irrelevant things. So will we score high on lq? Probably never. But will we, you know, score high on EQ or understanding what people want? We will be 100 out of 100. Are there things you can learn from LQ? Of course they are. There's basic things and cleanliness and room service and that. So I'm not saying it's all. There's definitely things you can improve. But I, I think that the general mindset hasn't evolved to understand what's important and what's not important in these environments, whether it's 3,000 a night or whether it's 200 a night, these the fundamentals that grab your heart and soul and your mind and these are very different experiences. And uh, I think that Chris and I have got a very good understanding of what that is, as do my team. Sabine and the team that lead, lead us are there. And you know, we've got people that have bought houses, we've got seven houses, more houses under construction now. And people understand what the edge of wildness, which is our uh, you know, our tagline, what the edge of wildness represents and it's, it's encapsulating it. But you know, I think that the people, when we're working on a new knie, which we haven't been successful at all, we've been very successful in Sumba and uh, you know, in growing the brand and doing all of this, you know, I'll be the first to say I been a poor developer and I'm very grateful that we have an extraordinary successful business in Sumba and there's more to come there in Indonesia that we, that we're working on. Uh, Costa Rica unfortunately is not going to happen. So I think this is probably the first public forum that I'm doing it on. Um, you know, we have great partners there, the Zircher family on a beautiful farm just around the corner on Papagaya and Santa Tomas, two polo fields, etc. But it's been five or six years and it's just a bridge too far. So we've actually pulled out of that. But I think the point that I wanted to make is, um, I never know what me wanted to knee, never. It never started off that this is what it's going to be. And even a Nihirote, which we're working on right now, it's, they say is it going to have, this is going to have horses. No, horses are for Sumba. Is it going to have a spa safari? I say I don't know because I have to feel it. You've got to feel what it's going to be. Will it have beautiful villas, Will it have uh, an amazing hospitality academy which is going to be where, you know, the check in experience will actually be through the academy. You're going to come through the school and you're going to have smiling Erotanese children or not young adults welcoming you and they're going to turn that whole thing on its head that you're not going to a normal arrival area. And the hospitality academy will become the part of the fabric as the Summa foundation is. But are you going to have this and are you going to have. We'll have all of the fundamental things that you would have, but of the, of the extra stuff, are you going to have, you know, turtles that get released at the beach? I don't know if we have enough turtles. Maybe we have a long neck turtle. Maybe we can have this. Maybe we're going to that. It all happens that year after year. You let the story unfold and you, you grow it and you make it exciting. And it's not just all locked in a box that you know exactly what it's going to be.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think that this approach comes from a lot of wisdom, right. It comes from maturity and knowing that you can overthink things and you can try to force things. But at the very end nature, uh, takes over and nature is uh, a free flowing energy, right? And so perhaps at the very beginning when you were trying to come up with ideas or come up with projects and come up with new ways of selling, etcetera, you were maybe forcing some things. But then after some time there's just an evolution that occurs and then things start coming out into the world as an offering that are much more, um, I would say simple, right? You talk about this, uh, insignificance is bliss, right? The simplicity of life. So talk to me a little bit about this idea of nature. You know, you talk about the edge of wildness, which is where nature, culture, and for me, consciousness, they all converge. Right. So what do you believe the human spirit goes through when we reconnect with nature at this depth? And how should the hospitality industry be evolving to facilitate, to facilitate this transformation?

Speaker B: I think as honestly, the most simple things yield the best results. And when we try to overcomplicate everything. The spa safari is so extraordinary because of its simplicity. And its simplicity is it's 100 acres with three beaches and I'll be at Sumba Big. And it's very hard to dedicate that type of real estate in a lot of places to it. 99% of the world, it's just simple. It's a ballet with a bed, two mattress. And it's simplicity. And one thing we did is when you're having your treatment, you look down through the hole and there's a mirror that reflects on the ocean. You're not looking at anyone's feet. And the simplicity of that, it's so simple and so inexpensive, but just changes the whole dynamic of the experience and layering detail into all of that stuff. From when we. I was at the Ritz Carlton Kuala Lumpur, and we started the monogram pillowcases in 1997 because of the Asia crisis. Finding an inexpensive way to simply recognize people that made them feel warm and made them feel good. That became a thing. And, uh, everything I think is. Is, you know, everyone wants a fragrance and they wanted to smell a certain way and they want to do this and they want to do that. They want a pillow concierge and this and that and everything else. Of course, these things are all good, but have. Just have good pillows to start off with. You know, just have the room smell nice to start off with. And these of where you overthink and can be too elaborate. You know, do I. Do I like the smell of a, uh, of the Faina and Miami and Buenos Aires and that? Do I like. I like that smell. So I get that. I get that there's certain places where this. That the smell is key and. But I think that's that simplicity of the sunrise, simplicity of looking at the stars, simplicity of our horse program. How did it start? Started that I bought a little pony called Neoko that was a piebald, and I saw it at the spa. Safari was the early, early days. I said, this is beautiful. Let me put it in the menara, which is our check in there so kids can play. And Carol, who was the wife of our, uh, construction, uh, manager, said, I'm a horse whisperer. Can I start a program? And we're like, sure, you could. Why not get another? And that's not Carol. To this day, Carol's involved me are the most amazing. Wasn't thought out. It's simplistic. Horses swimming in the sea. It's simplistic and it's not. Not contrived and it's not fake. And I think as much as it can be real, you know, getting behind the sunset and enjoying it in a beautiful way and adding in at the sunset, we have what's called legend of the day. Someone that did caught the biggest wave, ran the furthest to help children did something. Our guest becomes the legend of the day. And the guests will look forward to the legend of the day. But let me tell you, the legend of the day is a catboy T shirt. And it's reckoned on the guest whether they're paying 1,000 or 20,000 a night, they love it because everyone loves a recognition. And sometimes the simpler it is, the better.

Speaker A: Where does emotion fall into all of this? James, you often mentioned that, you know, luxury is tied to emotion. And Again, the simplicity is the bridge to that emotion. Right? So in your eyes, where does emotion sit? In the way that hospitality is created?

Speaker B: Emotion to me is all through connection of people. Uh, we just go through naturally that you're going to have nice sheets and towels in the room and everything's going to smell nice. But the connection of people, you'll keep going to the same restaurant, to the same waiters, and same people are there to greet you and say hello to you. Even if they screw up a few times, it doesn't matter because you've got that call. You feel recognized. You go to hotels like that because you feel recognized. And as soon as you go back and through our captains and people that we've had working for many, many years, it's through Mr. Ruiz and, uh, Alexandra Shern at the Carlisle, she runs the residences. Mr. Ruiz has been behind the desk forever. And you know where hotels go wrong. And I, you know, I can. I use the car as an ex. To me, uh, it's none of my business, but you've got people that have stayed there for 20 or 30 years and have been through every tide of it. Up, down, up, down, renovation, no renovation. And then if you drop a blanket and say, right, this room that you getting now is going to cost you 2,500, but you've always got upgraded to that room and now you've got to pay for it, and we're not going to upgrade you even though you stayed there for 30 years. Okay, fair enough. At, ah, the Met Gala, uh, there's certain times maybe you can't, but as a general rule, if it was me, I would always take care of the person because the fabric of that relationship is what luxury is. The connection of all of that is what luxury is. And I'm not using that. Whether it's a collar, whether it's Beverly, uh, Hills Hotel or whatever it may be, there's always tides that change. Things come and go, paces become a part of companies go. But if you lose that core piece of the human touch and looking after people that they feel they're getting loved, you'll lose them.

Speaker A: Yes, definitely.

Speaker B: You really will. And I have to be cognizant of that as well. We are a lot more expensive than we were six, seven years ago, and we always have to be cognizant of that. As those that have supported you for many, many years, you need to always be in their camp as well and making sure that everything feels equitable. And, you know, I think just some of the pricing generally in the World is starting to feel inequitable as ah, as they've reached such huge the dominations for a regular room in summer in Europe, 3, $4,000 would. Before you even have a drink. There's always a tipping point and it's just a question as to when that tipping point can come. And I think it's like, it's like everything. It's, it's uh, moderation and when, when you, you know, the check and balance is that it's just got to feel right and if it feels wrong, you, you need to adjust it. You know the. I was just with the uh, the FNB director of the new Ritz Carlton in, in Papagaya in Costa Rica. Rich, uh, reserve. Sorry. And you know the food and beverage. I was on a, we were on a trip there for Nice and Tomas when we were still working on an Easter not so long ago. And I'm like manal, your prices are crazy. Okay? And he said jimmy, you know, we recognize that and we're going to lower them because we have to because we've been basing our prices on the Four Seasons as the same owner. But they are too high and you've got to react and you got to lower them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And uh, I think it's having that ability to be able to, to you know, where you can, you can make those decisions. I think earlier on in our conversation you were saying, you know, how it's different for people being in the business today relative, uh, to when I grew up with Ritz Carlton or whatever is that emotional connection to your leadership, to the, to uh. It wasn't even called the brand. It was. Ritz Carlton wasn't all about brand this and that.

Speaker A: We work for the Ritz Carlton free brand movement. Exactly.

Speaker B: It was, it was. We worked for the Ritz Carlton and, and they were. Everything is about the brand and everything is corporate. No one can make a decision. No one's allowed to do anything. So I think a lot of the fun has been taken out of it all honesty and uh, where you don't have that ability to be creative and, and put your name in the paper or take a band to Goldman Sachs in Singapore, build a room at the airport. Mr. Marriott came and I thought he's going to fire me or not fire me. But he loved it because I said I, we're doing an amazing business now you probably would get fired because you, you just not abiding by the guidelines. And I think just, you know, always trying to find that happy medium between both as to, as to how you can walk on both sides is key.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it just boils down to this mix of just not always living out of your head but also living out of your heart as well and recognizing that great decisions do come from the heart as well. Right. And then so it's that you're, but we're constantly in this world of overthinking, of numbers of KPIs, of results driving everything we do. Right. And it's, it's driving us again like you mentioned into this frenzy of.

Speaker B: You gotta just, just think about it. In 1993, which is long ago but not that long ago, there was one Ritz Carlton in all of Asia. Ritz Carlton Hong Kong. And then there were two when Singapore opened in 95 and then there were three when Kuala Lumpur opened in 97. And then you did Seoul and all the others. And now you've got, we've got a St. Regis, you've got a Bulgari, you've got a Ritz Carlton, you've got all of these all in one city. Some Cities you have two Ritz Carls, four seasons. So actually what's happened in that 30 or 40 year, 30 year period is unbelievable. Yeah, it's unbelievable. So you just the, the change in, in the dynamic of. And I think Marriott's a brilliant company. I think Bonvoy is an incredible program. I think what, what they've done to retain their customer and, and how they've evolved with all of these brands. I think, you know, from Mr. M Marriott to, to Arnie doing a great job. I'm not so familiar with it with the current group. My nephew and godson is the GM of the Ritz Carlton Nikko just outside of Tokyo. And uh, it's an amazing hotel and an amazing company and they've been able to bridge. But it's changed. He's, you know, he's in his late 30s is a G. Is his evolution, if you can say if I, uh, compared with mine which is, you know, 20 or 30 years earlier.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Albeit still great for him. And I would always be the biggest proponent for him to stay working with Merit International and these brands. It's a completely different experience. Of course everything changes. Nothing stays the same. I'm not advocating that but I think we were just fortunate to be able to have more fun and, and at times, you know, uh, investigate, explore different opportunities of what could make you successful.

Speaker A: Yeah. And which I think is interesting because you've also seen an evolution in the independent hotel market and it usually is fueled by individuals like yourself that had a taste of what that type of hospitality was like, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago, and then didn't see eye to eye with the way that things were evolving. Right. In that uniformity and consistency. And it was, well, where's the fun? Right? And so you see all these great independent hotels that have popped up all over the world, and they are an homage to that time. Right. Which is like, yes, of course, but let's have fun.

Speaker B: Of course. And because of technology and I think a big part of our knee successes, we got on Instagram bandwidth very early in 2012.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: As I'm getting into the AI piece right now, because AI is. Yes. It's. It's. We're using and we involved and I can, uh. And it's just the tip of the iceberg, but you've got to stay current. And a big blessing was us getting in early and understanding the digital with print and with, you know, with Chris. Chris and my relationships around the world, and being able to leverage those and bring them in and put it all together, you know, has made it, uh, a force to reckon with, let's just say, because we've been able to use technology and evolve and everything through our combined forces, and been able to do that because these a. You know, Chris was the original investor in the Vienna in Miami, which a lot of people don't know. He sold his stake to Linda Vatnik and is, uh. You know, was very involved with Alan back then and his entrepreneurial vision and his ability to take risk and wanting to do that, doing it with me. We've just been a great team and been able to execute what he's done and what we've done. And I think that the, uh. And a great human being, very generous and kind, and I. I think. And his boys are living in Jakarta now, and they're opening a business in the confectionery side. So that. That sort of whole Indonesia thing has been. Has been. It's been great for all of us. And the Birch family, um, is. Growing up in South Africa also prepared me for the journey in Sumba, because it's tribal and it's Maripu religion and you still pay a dowry to get married. A buffalo and horses. So you have that. And then in the luxury business, and then you go into the edge of wildness jungle business, and that's. That's sort of the deal.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Anyway. Do you think we're boring the audience yet? It's been. We've been on for a while.

Speaker A: No, I Think. I think it's been an amazing, an amazing journey and amazing conversation. Thank you so much for, for the time that you've spent with me. I really appreciate it. Um, just to end, you know, just final question here is you mentioned that, you know, Papagayo, the project in Costa Rica is not moving, moving forward, but you've got a lot of other things going on. What would you say excites you the most at this point, James? And what you're looking forward to, I

Speaker B: want what excites me the most is continuing. You know, there was a big article in the New York Times and just saying Sumba is not Bali. And that's the point. You know, I, I think that, you know, Chris and I have had the ability to literally put an island on the map in the world. When I first flew on Gerudo Airlines nine years ago, the national carrier, the back of the magazine where they put the map, Suma wasn't even on the map, didn't exist. And you know, it's other. It's called the Lost Island. So, uh, that it's, that it's becoming of age. But when I say coming of age, it's still, you know, what you have maybe 200 people arriving a day or 300 is nothing, but people know it and it's becoming more and more. And I think that the opportunities for us in our home base in Sumba and Indonesia, whether it be Sumba and Rote and Bali Labon Bajo, Flores, is, is where to me I want to focus our energy and efforts. And um, you know, as much as I, I would love to have done Costa Rica, Costa, uh, Rica is an incredible market. It was an incredible piece of real estate. Still is. And um, you know, it just, it just wasn't to be. But from a branding perspective, you know, would that have made me. Ah. Uh, I would never say that we are brand, we're an aspiring brand. Yes. We are known by people that know us. But having something close to the US, of course, it changes everything. But is it essential? For me, no. You know, I think that running our core business is what's essential to me and finding, you, uh, know, opportunities that will only enhance that. The problem that we face is, uh, Chris always say, when I'm looking at new deals, is it, is it as good as better than some? Is it nice? And I always say, Chris, nothing is better than some because it is. It's the most extraordinary piece of real estate in the world. And doesn't matter where you go, you aren't going to Find it again. We got a wave where you got two and a half kilometer beach, you got culture, you got, you got everything. So it's always finding something that's, that's got a differentiating factor. But expanding, you know, our footprint in Sumba, uh, being true to who we are and being true to the people running a good, running a good business, uh, letting people evolve as the. So many is working with the foundation, continuing to make their lives better and really delighting our customer base that they keep coming back, which they do, because there is no other place on earth like it. And uh, I can honestly say that it doesn't exist. And we're very blessed to be, to have that and want to remain humble as we can because we have been successful and have been won a lot of awards and accolades and so on and so forth. But you know, as Horst, uh, always used to say, which statement, you know, successes today, it's not somewhere in the future and it's not in the past. It's what you do today that will make you successful and continue to be successful every day. And you will reach the pinnacle that you want. You don't ask the question, why don't I have the office in the corner? You don't have the office in the corner because you're not doing what you need to do every day to be successful. And if you do, that will happen. And you know, if we, when we do another knee, whether it be in Costa Rica or somewhere else, it will happen because it's meant to happen. And that was the time for when it was meant to happen. But thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed.

Speaker A: This has been incredible. Thank you so much, James. True full circle moment for me. So I really appreciate. Different from having the opportunity to uh, to work with your son at Swire and then, uh, having the opportunity to meet you in person.

Speaker B: Oh, did you work with.

Speaker A: Yeah. And then, uh, and then I had the, and then I had the chance to. Well, so I worked at the Pierre and so for, for me, Chris, I used to, when Chris just left to go to the Rosewood is when I joined the pier a couple months later.

Speaker B: Hold on, big guy. Not the Rosewood, the Carlisle. Let's get it straight.

Speaker A: Sorry, sorry. The Carlisle. That's right.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: And then I, you know, Rosewood Hotel, anecdotal story. I used to buy, um, Henry and Nick, uh, things online for them with my credit card because they didn't want their mom to know that they were buying.

Speaker B: Still happening today. Nothing's changed.

Speaker A: So the Ability to kind of do the whole tour for me is amazing and, uh, just incredibly, uh, great.

Speaker B: What were you doing at the pier?

Speaker A: I was a front assistant, front office manager at the pier. It was actually my first.

Speaker B: Who was your GM then?

Speaker A: Haiko. Haiko Kunstle was my first Christian and Corinna and all of them were. Were part of my, My journey early on. And so, yeah, it's incredible how.

Speaker B: Okay, so you knew the King. Okay, well, that's great. So when you never went to God. I wish you had mentioned that earlier in the chat. Maybe you need to edit this into the beginning, uh, as I think it's very relevant and a, uh, really fun anecdotal piece of that that I didn't know, which is great.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So it's. It's a full circle and you know, just watching those little kids run, running through the lobby and then. And then again, like I said, you know, walking into Chris Birch's office with. With Marcel and having the opportunity to meet the two of you. And then you came to. To east. Uh, and. And we were sitting in. In the big fireplace.

Speaker B: Yeah, I remember.

Speaker A: So many, many m. Great memories. And so I'm.

Speaker B: And I'm still very close to my cell. And obviously he's in New York now. And, uh, I'll be back at the Upper House for the FT conference in October and see Christina. And yes, turning to two weeks there. Oh, my God, that's great. David. I'm so happy you looped this in.

Speaker A: Indeed, indeed. So thanks again for your time, James. It's been fantastic to everybody listening in.

Speaker B: We'll see you in.

Speaker A: In the next, uh, episode. And again, thanks again.

Speaker B: Take care. Bye. Bye.

Speaker A: Bye, James.