Episode 64 - Benjamin Rogers

Speaker A: Welcome back to the Conscious Hospitality podcast, where we explore the intersection of leadership, well being and the human experience, one conversation at a time. I'm your host, David, and today's guest brings a beautifully thoughtful lens to the world of work and meaning. Joining me today is Benjamin Rogers, Assistant professor of Management and Organization at Boston College's Carroll School of Management. Benjamin's research is centered around the stories we tell about our work, our lives and ourselves, and how these, these narratives shape our sense of purpose, our well being, and even our leadership. He's published groundbreaking studies in Academy of Management Discoveries, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, and Behavioral Science and Policy, exploring everything from how growth mindsets lead employees to help others to how seeing your life as a hero's journey can deepen your experience of meaning. His work has been featured in Time, Harvard Business Review, and Scientific American, to name just a few.

Speaker B: Few.

Speaker A: What I find especially compelling about Benjamin's work is its relevance, not just for scholars and students, but for leaders, teams, and anyone trying to find clarity in their own professional path. His insights bridge research and humanity, science and storytelling, perfect for conscious hospitality. So today we'll explore the power of personal narrative, the psychology of leadership, and how meaning at work is not just nice to have, but it's a pathway to real transformation. Benjamin, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Hi David. Excited to be here.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm so glad you're here. Really excited to have had the opportunity to meet you through, uh, a good friend of mine, Susie, who had run into your work and had connected with you prior on Hero's Journey. And uh, the two of us have worked together for a company that was very focused on, well, being and coming across your work, I think was groundbreaking for the two of us and so I'm really excited to explore today. We start all of the podcasts with gratitude. And so let's begin. What are you grateful for?

Speaker B: Today I had, uh, listened to, to our mutual contacts podcast episode and so I was ready for this question. So actually this morning when I was walking my dog, Sadie, she's eight years old, I was, you know, thinking about, like, what am I going to say for my grateful thing? I'm obviously grateful for a lot of things. And then I kind of had this like, meta moment where I'm like, oh, I'm grateful for being able to walk my dog every day. M. It's a time that, particularly in the last month or so, like, I used to listen to podcasts such as yours while I walked my dog. And that's. That was always great, but I kind of made this choice about a month ago to go, like, I'm gonna not listen to anything. I'm just gonna kind of use that time to reflect, whether it's about work questions or thing or thoughts that I'm wondering about or personal stuff. And that's been a really nice change where I now have 20 to 30 minutes every day where I'm just like thinking and I'm a little more present. And uh, so I'm grateful for walk my dog Sadie. Um, and then also, particularly recently, it's been super hot here in Boston and it's finally not really hot today. So today's walk was. I was particularly grateful for because I wasn't sweaty and gross.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. That's great. And those, like you mentioned, those meta moments, sometimes something that can spark that. That opportunity to really just open the perception and recognize there's so many things, but I can hone in on. On one or all of it at the same time. So I'm thankful that you've responded that way. And what's interesting for me, before we get into your life and journey and your hero's journey as well, is the fact that, um, I went through a recent change as well. You know, I'm. I'm somebody that. I've been a seeker and I've been trying to find answers to a lot of questions and questions about my life and the meaning, the purpose and all of it. And the podcast is of course, one of the avenues for that, right? The opportunities to learn. But just recently, pretty much similar timeline. You know, I've. I've had this shift in my awareness where it's like, I'm, um. I'm, um, I'm. It's like I. I got tired of. Of consuming in a way, and there was this just natural click to, you know, now it's time to be. And now it's time to embody everything that I've been learning. So it's uh, a curiously, it's. It's at a very similar timeline that then yours. And I'm curious just, just very quickly on that. Was there something that prompted that change or was there a specific moment or was it just really that you just woke up and like me, that it was just one day. I wasn't feeling podcasts anymore and I wasn't feeling, you know, I'd read my book. I'd like sit down and read my book at night. And I used to get so much pleasure. And then one night it was like, well, the page is there and I'm not turning the page. What's happened? And then the next day, and the next day that happened, and it was just really weird for me.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think there's sort of two answers to it. One is I'm in a job, you know, as a. As a professor at a university where there's a very profound, like, rhythm to my year, where the semesters are, you know, very busy, academic students are around things, there's meetings, there's all this stuff. And then the summers, you know, I. I keep working. I'm able to finally focus on my research fully in the summers, which is amazing, but it's just like a quieter time. And I always use it as a time to kind of reevaluate some of my processes and ways I'm approaching my work and kind of often reconnecting with the joy that I find in my work. You know, I love my job, but as with any job, you're. There's moments where you're more connected to that joy than others. And so I use the summer to go like, oh, yeah, I get to, like, think about interesting thoughts. Like, that's my job, more or less. And I, as part of that process, is going like, how can I do more of that? While also balancing. I'm sure we'll get into it. I have, you know, a wife and two young kids. And so my time is very limited. And so it's hard to balance this job where I just literally need time to think. Think versus I have all these real great time constraints in my life. And so I realized, like, oh, I have this 20 to 30 minutes where, you know, not in, like, an instrumental way, per se, where, like, I need more time to work, though that's part of it. It was this idea, like, I have this time where I can just think about the broader things that I'm. Ideas that I'm considering in a way that's less, like, task focused. And so that was the more, you know, as part of the summer. And then also, I think similar to you, I just ebb and flow in terms of times where, like, I was. I think I was just generally feeling overwhelmed by as much as I was consuming. Like, you know, uh, I could listen to all the podcasts that I would like to. That would be my. That would be all I would do and had to, like, accept in my life that I'm just. I can't listen to all of the cool thoughts and stuff that I'd like to. And so I need to be a little More discerning about what I'm listening to, how is it serving me? And when I'm listening to it, like, is there a better use of my time that is not just in taking content, but also, you know, in my weird sphere figuring out how do I produce content that I care about or that I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, I constantly think about the idea of consumption versus creation and how much, you know, you need one for the other in order for ideas to percolate and in order for you to be able to, you know, you're a dot connector, so you're the one that finds pieces of information that are out there and then like all of a sudden you're the one that helps connect these dots in ways that most people can't, or maybe they don't necessarily have the many times as well because it's not their area of focus. And so I too, you know, usually love the idea of connecting dots and trying to help people accelerate their connection, because I find most people connect the dots backwards, but if you're able to help them connect them forwards in a way sometimes, then they can accelerate growth. And I'm sure it's part of the growth mindset that we're going to get into as well. But I also felt you talk about these seasons and you talk about these cycles, and for me, I didn't even think about it. The fact that, you know, the school year is coming to an end for my children, things really slow down here in Europe when it comes to work over the summer. And so everybody's kind of in this wind down mode. And that just naturally opens up space, um, for being. And then you, you know, the other piece for me was this ide of. I recognize that consuming just like with anything. Right. Makes you feel good because you tend to consume the things that make you feel good. So you're attracted to that podcast that says the one thing you needed to hear at that one moment. But then the growth usually, and I'm sure we'll talk about this as well, is, is in the discomfort rather than in the comfort. So I was kind of toying around with all of these ideas. So it's perfect timing, Ben. Let's, let's get into it. Uh, let's get into your journey. And as always, with, with all the episodes, we start at the very beginning, and that's little Ben. What was little Ben like at the very beginning of his age? So between the ages of 2 and 6, I'm really curious what, what little Ben was like.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, um, for those anyone who's looking at the video feed, I actually above in my office I kind of have like a chronology of my life in terms of these penance that I have. And so starting up with the first one. So I, I was born and I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico. So if anyone has seen the M. Uh show Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul, that's you know, where I grew up, had a cultural touchstone for it. And um, overall I had a really good like childhood. And so my dad was a medical doctor, my mom was a nurse, but then became an elementary school teacher sort of later on. And I just, you know, I had lots of great teachers, I was in good schools. I really loved learning, which I think sort of set me on this path. My parents maybe apocryphally like to tell the story of me teaching myself to read when I was three. I don't think that's actually true, but that's the stories that we end up getting told. Uh, and now that I have a three year old, I'm kind of like going like is she doing the same thing? Which is probably not a healthy way to approach stuff. But yeah, I, you know, I think I had what in my mind is sort of the, you know, classic stereotypical childhood of loving going to school, sports, friends, all that kind of stuff and liked being outside. Very uneventful, but in a very positive,

Speaker A: you know, you, you definitely came into an environment where there was structure, where the scholastic side was pushed or encouraged, I would say. But I'm sure there were moments very early on in your career where you had, or in your life, sorry, where you had space. Space to dream, space to you know, just dream is the biggest, I think how we occupied our time when we were little. And so if you go back in time, what were some of those things that attracted you naturally that you were dreaming coming up with, uh, when you were on your own.

Speaker B: I think I'll give credit to my dad for, for something that he did, which I'm hoping to do with my kids was I think any subject that I'd come home from school or maybe I'd see something and I'd go like, oh, like I heard about World War II or oh, I heard about this thing, this topic. Like without asking, my dad would then go to the library and that week would bring back a big stack of books, like some fiction, some non fiction, but all related to that topic and go like you said you're interested in this, like here you go, have at it. And I think that was A, uh, that was a big gift from my dad of going, you. Anything that you're. You have a spark of interest towards, like, you can start to think more about it. You can either delve into that world from like a fiction standpoint, or you can learn more about the history or the concepts behind it. And here's all this material. You know, he wasn't quizzing on me. He wasn't saying like, have you read all of those 10 books? But it was just this thing where it was, here's a way to pursue your curiosity with sort of that implicit, like, if you have things that you're interested in, like, you should follow that up. It shouldn't just be this thing like, oh, yeah, I learned this thing at school today. Now I'm never going to think about it. And so I think that coupled with just my. I did not have a, uh, what do they call it, a latchkey childhood kind of thing. My parents were around and all of that stuff. Absolutely. But I had lots of times where I was really bored at home. I have two older brothers, but they were five and eight years older than me, so we weren't exactly doing the roaming around the neighborhoods together. And so there's lots of times where I was just home playing by myself, imagining things, reading stories. And as a kid, you know, you're like, oh, I'm so bored. But now, looking back on it, having the space to just figure out, how do I see the world, what am I interested in? You know, is something I'm very grateful for and that I think a lot about with, uh, my parenting. You know, are we over prescribing with our kids of events and activities and all that stuff?

Speaker A: Yeah, and it's definitely something that is a, uh, very relevant conversation nowadays in terms of parenting styles. And I think that we. Fortunately, you know, I think we. We've gone a bit to the other extreme for years, you know, and since the moment when we were little. And now we're starting to see a kind of a comeback, you know, because people are recognizing the power of being bored and being able to really create on your own. Again, going back to these dots, it's like if something is. Is too prescribed and then you are following a very structured path of learning or a path of cognitive connection, then you miss so much. Right. And uh. And so in particular with parents that are very, very present with their children and very much there, they will give them a script that they will follow. And it's usually their script. And in just at a previous conversation that we had that, that I was, I was interviewing a mom and she was saying that one of the biggest gifts that her mother and her father gave her when she was young was that they told her that hey, this is our script, this is how we see the world. But it's not the only way. So from very early on she said, okay, my parents have, have a point of view and a way of seeing things, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that's going to be mine. And so I think it's okay to give them some sort of prescription but as long as we understand that it's not the only script.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And the only way to get there. So that's really cool. Uh, so let's talk a little bit about your formative years. Maybe a little bit once you know, you've gotten into maybe middle school, high school, after you've gotten through kind of the early years of childhood where you started making some decisions right. Where it wasn't so prescribed, what were some of the activities and uh, perhaps the things that you were focused on that were attracting you during those years.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I really gravitated towards school. I loved learning. School came easy to me but I was also really interested in it and I liked working hard at it at ah, you know, whatever topic I was attracted to. And looking back on it I was really, I gravitated towards like writing and stories and so English class and all of those types of things. And I think those were some of the classes I remember most profoundly of those moments of inspiration of going like uh, oh wow, a story can be like that. Or I remember in my, my 10th grade English class we had, we would like read a book of a certain style and we'd have to write an essay in that style. And you know, that was something I'd never done before. But I was like oh like this is really fun and this is really interesting. Like I'm adopting this perspective that maybe I don't hold but like I can make a convincing argument or a convincing way of approaching it. And so I think I implicitly, because it definitely wasn't, I wasn't conscious of, it was gravitating towards stories and storytelling. And that was also in my like non school time I became really interested in TV shows and movies and reading all the behind the scenes things. I remember when I was in high school the show Lost was on and I don't know if you watched it or remember it a lot, but one of the things that stuck with me was not only did they have the show but they had all these like Internet. It was like one of the early Internet things where they were like dropping breadcrumbs and Easter eggs. And there was fake websites for fake companies related to the show. And you know, my friends and I were all into that. And yeah, really looking back on it, that was so formative of my mind of going like, oh, I'm like in this story and I really like this and this is so fun. And so I gravitated towards that. And I think that was also partially because my brothers were very athletic and I was a little less athletic. So I had to carve my own niche. I did long distance running. I still run today. I really love it. But like that wasn't my thing. And so I ended up going into the more academic oriented route, um, because I enjoyed it. And particularly this like writing, thinking, ideas aspect of, of the area.

Speaker A: It's interesting. You know, one thing that stands out to me, you know, and again it's no, there's no better way or not better way to doing it, but it's just that the natural gravitation towards, you know, there's, there's individuals that go more towards a group oriented type of upbringing where it's like team sports or they go into, you know, these, where they have tons of friends and. And then there's others that are, you know, more independent. They like to be on their own. And so like I think of, you know, if you do long distance running, that's you and you're with yourself and you're spending. Even though you may have other people on your team by a certain part in the run, it's just you and your mind.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So talk to me a little bit about perhaps maybe your friendships. And you know, you mentioned your friends were really into some of these, I would say ideas or concepts that the way I would see it. Because if I go back to my high school years, I don't think I would have been able to even get to that depth of thought yet. My mind was in more basic stuff. It was like, I want to be liked and I want to be liked by as many people and like very much more. Yeah, I would say much more. Uh, fundamental items where you were already at, I think at another level of cognitive ideation and so forth. Which, you know, again I think that's a part of the gift that has brought you where you are, where you're now kind of the forward thinker, connecting dots forward that we talk about. But talk to me a little bit about, you know, your friendships in high School and how that all worked out.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, the, your point about long distance is super interesting because I absolutely agree it's like a very, it is a team sport. Like it's. But it's very weird, uh, a weird team sport in a way that most are not. The other aspect of it that I think is interesting and maybe I think partially answers this question is particularly in your training runs, like when we have, when we would be running for an hour. Plus like often you're not doing those alone, you're doing those alongside someone. And I think that was really cool retrospectively of uh, you know, you're exercising stuff, but you're also having these 60 to 75 minute, like not full conversations, but like you're dropping in and out and talking. And you know, when you're just next to someone for an hour, you uh, sometimes get into really interesting spaces. And like, you know, particularly when the endorphins are flowing and all of that, I think you let your guard down a little bit and start talking about, you know, things, whether it's personal, academic, like posturing, things about like, oh, we learned that in class today. What'd you think about that? Like having just a lot of time neck alongside some of my best friends who were on the team was, was very cool.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But then there's also times where, you know, you're feeling grumpy and you run by yourself. And I remember I would sometimes conjugate Spanish words, Spanish verbs in my head while I was running.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: As just a way to pass the time. I, uh, also helped academically, but for the friendships, you know, it was that, that was a unique, I think, aspect versus, you know, in other team sports like basketball, soccer, whatever. You're still with really close friends, but it's a little more boom, boom, boom kind of thing. Whereas running allows for like, yes, we're working, but like you can't just be silent for an hour. That would be a very strange experience.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then for the non sports aspects of it, you, uh, know, I think my friends and I were classic nerd style. Like we had lots of fun and went to parties and events and all those types of things. But like we loved reading comic books and we loved watching Lost and digging into the theories online and all that stuff. And so I think it felt very fun. Like I was laughing when you were kind of describing it. I think maybe you're partially right, but like we weren't thinking that. We were thinking deep thoughts. We were just going like, oh, this is so interesting. Or what do you, like, why is, uh, the Dharma Init Initiative doing this thing in Loss or whatever the case may be? And we were just following our passions in a way that was very, you know, just intuitive to us.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's really cool that, like, you know, society, um, has a bit of both, because then you've got, like, the creators of these type of concepts are people that do. They see things in a whole other plane. And you can think of, like, so many different creators of great music and great shows and great books and great novel, just great content that to the large majority of the masses, it's entertaining, but it's the symbolism and the underlying idea doesn't necessarily flow through. It does in a very subtle way, you know, and then. And then you've got people that just really get it from the first minute. Right. And so, like, I had to watch Lost the second time to truly understand it. It's a good example, you know, and. And, uh, I just wasn't prepared for it, you know, I wasn't ready for something like that at that level. And some people are. Right. So I think it's kudos to you for. For having that. We talk about probably the first, most important pivot moment in our life, which is when you decide to go to college and you decide to go on your own. Talk to me about that moment, what you wanted to study, maybe a little bit about what that decision making was. The conversation you had with your parents about where you wanted to go. I assume that's probably when you took the next step in that journey. So. Yeah, let's talk about that now.

Speaker B: Yeah. So in the video, I went from New Mexico over to Texas, so I ended up going to the University of Texas at Austin and majored in again. It kind of reflects my current life now and maybe interesting ways of. I was a business school student, so I was a finance major. So I had that whole, like, sort of practical, I'm gonna learn how business world works and get that kind of job. But then I was also in this thing called Plan 2, which was like a liberal arts honors program at UT Austin. It's been around for, like, 100 years or something. It's very, like. It was a very interesting experience to be. You know, I had lots of great friends in the business, like, school World. But then I also had all these friends who were from a whole variety of things. And we were taking Shakespeare classes and learning about, you know, physics and all these, like, existential questions. And so I'd go from, like, an accounting class to a Shakespeare class. And I, I love that, I love that at the time, but I'm also, I love that now. Of course. It just kind of shook up my perspective constantly at a low level in a way that I think led me to like being a business school professor who studies the types of things that I do. And so that was, you know, I had a great time at UT Austin, but I think that that was obviously the pivot from, like getting out from under my parents wing. But I think it was also a big pivot as that was around the time where my mom. Right as I was about to leave for college, my mom was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. So we were actually supposed to go to do the like, visit intro week the summer before. So we were. She and I were going to fly out. She got really sick. We didn't know what it was, so she didn't end up coming on the trip with me. And then fast forward a couple months later, she's diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer. And unfortunately, within the year. So by the next June, she passed away. And so, as you can imagine, I'm heading off to be an adult for the first time and figure out all that while having one of the most profound things happen to me in my personal life. And so, you know, it was a very tumultuous time. It was a very positive time. I met some of my best friends and loved my time at ut. But also looking back on it, I was like, oh, I was really lost there for a while. And it took me a number of years to kind of get my feet back under me psychologically in ways that I absolutely did not appreciate at the time. It's funny looking back on, you're like, oh, all of these like, weird things or mistakes that I made, like, that was me, like, trying to work through some of these experiences that I had. Um, you know, I wouldn't change anything necessarily, but it's, you know, I wish I had a little bit more awareness of. I obviously knew this was like the most tragic thing that happened in my life to that point. But like the reverberations I was not ready for and we didn't talk about a lot. I think there's a lot more of those conversations now. And granted, this wasn't that long ago. You know, I'm not, I'm not super old.

Speaker A: No, no. Definitely no. But at the time, it's, it's interesting because, you know, even though you're already an adult per se, right, the way that your parents still see you at that time is that they need to shield you and they need to, you know, in a way protect. And so. And similarly. Right. We've got. We grew up in a time where we still didn't necessarily talk about a lot of difficult moments or discomfort or in particular where we would see our parents be in discomfort. We would see it at a very surface level. And uh, and again it's one thing that we can then now look on and be like, how much of this do we want to change for our relationship with our children? I know that in my case we are much more open about the negative or the lessons that come right from these moments so that they can understand and appreciate and are surprised positively about how much awareness they actually do have. Um, and because they actually help us through the moment and they don't cause us more problems like we would imagine they would. Tell me a little bit more if you don't mind about you mentioned some of these mistakes that you are making. Right. And so if you don't mind just digging in a little bit more just so people can relate because everybody goes through some of these moments.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you know, uh, being a uh, late teen, early 20 year old, you're out in the world in college and you're making friends and you're out at night and doing stuff and like, you know, I never got in any significant trouble or anything but you know, just going, going into spaces where like looking back and I was like, uh, oh, that probably wasn't the best idea or yeah, you know, I didn't treat that person in exactly the way I would have wanted to. I wasn't as good of a friend or as thoughtful as I to be. And you know, part of that is just I think the natural growing up. But part of it was me just going like I'm trying to get away from thinking about likes these things that are making me uncomfortable. And so how do I do that? I just push it away and either throw myself full on into my schoolwork or into my internships or into, you know, hanging out with friends all the time and not, you know, keeping up relationships. Like I should have both, you know, friendships and romantic relationships or you know, just being, I think the type of person that I would want to be. And again I'm. We're always more self critical, I think that of ourselves than of other people. But there's times where just like, you know, you take back a certain conversation, you take back a certain way you treated someone and it's just going like, oh, that was more about me than it was about them. But, like, I only know that now, and I wish I could express that in a way, you know, that back then.

Speaker A: It's funny, you know, this makes me think of something that's really interesting. And I have a teenager now. And so I remember when I was a teenager, everything was about me. Everything was about me. And even I would say into my 20s and these difficult moments, what happens, because it destabilizes you. It's kind of. You go back to this, like, fight or flight mode. You're in stressful mode all the time, you know, well, your. Your chemical composition goes out of whack, and so cortisol levels go up and adrenaline's rushing all the time. You kind of tend to focus more. Not inward, but you focus towards you. And so everything's about you. But what's actually ironic is that those are the moments when you're least focused on the fact that things are really you projecting out into the world. And so it's about you, but you don't realize that it's about you, but you think it's all about you. I hope that that makes sense. You know, um, and I think it's really interesting that you need to get through those moments sometimes to then finally see, oh, wow, okay, let me look outward again. But this time understanding that the way I see it is affecting everything that's looking outward.

Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I think there's a lot of just chasing the next thing. And that, you know, is very broadly construed. And, you know, I think there's advantage towards that, particularly, you know, for people who are ambitious or who want to get out into the world and do lots of things. I think there's. That's. There can be pros to that, but I also think, you know, particularly when it comes to, like, friendships and all those types of things, if you're just hopping from one thing to one thing, if you're like, uh, trying to escape something versus being compelled towards something for a valid reason, I m. Think that's. I was in a good period of that, you know, as I kind of think back towards my 20s in particular. And, you know, thankfully, I was surrounded by a really good group of people. I met my wife in college, and, you know, thankfully, I had that really good support system. But, you know, it's one of those things, like, it was a great time. It was, like, very formational in a lot of positive ways. But it was also, I think. And maybe this is like a sign of privilege or whatever. It was the first time in my life where like something wasn't going to be okay. Like it just like the thing happened and that had never happened to me and that I think I should be very, I'm very grateful that that was like I've had a life where that was the first time that happened when I was 19. But at the same time like I was very ill prepared to I think, deal with it.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think it's, it's very true. And now this invites me to go back and look at my life and career because I went from thing to thing to thing and I, and I recognized that I chased like I was chasing a carrot and then that carrot turned into a different type of carrot. And how many of those times was it to escape versus, you know, because I was being attracted to it definitely. So you, you know, you finish your studies and you decide what you're going to do for, for a living and to get started. What was that transition like and what choice did you make?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I was always a believer in like not closing any doors and keeping as many open until I like knew what I wanted to do. And I was never someone who like I thought I wanted to do something in business, but I wasn't like, I'm going to be an accountant or I'm going to be an investment banker. I just like, I never was wired that way. So I ended up doing the kind of like the default thing when you want to do something to get experience but you don't know what you want to do. And so I did consulting. And so I ended up working for Deloitte doing their human capital consulting because I was always interested in like people aspects of business and that was just a really great fit. And I'll talk about that in just a second. But right as I was about to graduate for my liberal arts degree, I had to write uh, like a senior thesis to do a big 70 page research project. And the only real constraints they had were it had to be associated with some class you took over your time in undergrad. And I ended up picking a topic related to organizational behavior because I had just taken that class in the business school and it was like it had planted the seed of like, oh, this is really cool stuff. And you know, organizational behavior, as I'm sure we'll talk about a lot, is you know, psychology of work type things. So leadership, motivation, teamwork, all that kind of stuff. And, and that, you know, when I had internships I was always thinking about like, why did those people do that? Or like, why, why were they using that weird jargon when there's perfectly suitable words to use otherwise? Or why were they so upset about that aspect? And organizational behavior class finally gave me like language and frameworks and like ways of thinking about like, oh, there's like systematic reasons. It's not just people being bizarre and like unhinged. There's like actual like reasons that we can scientifically deduce related to that. And so I was writing, I ended up asking my organizational behavior professor, uh, Ethan Burris, who's still at UT Austin, is still a good mentor of mine, if I could write related to that topic. And um, about halfway through he kind of, I don't know if it was like planned or an offhand thing. He just kind of said to me, you know, you seem like you like this and you seem pretty good at this. Like, have you ever thought about being a professor? Have you ever thought about actually academia as a career? And like, I had never even entertained that idea.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: My sister in law was actually, I think at the time already was a PhD student at uh, Arizona State in the same field that I actually ended up going in. But I, as I've talked about, I was kind of a punk, 20, uh, year old or whatever. And so I didn't really know what my sister in law was doing. But like this finally planted the seed of like, like I love mentoring, I've always been passionate about teaching, but I'm also very curious. And so is there a job where I can do both of those things? And so that was really the light bulb moment of like, oh, I think I want to do this. But I was literally just about to start my consulting career and I wasn't ready to like fully pivot directions. So I ended up, you know, going like, maybe I'll come back to that. But I went and did consulting for about four and a half years and loved my experience. I was fortunate to get myself onto some global projects. So I went and I was on projects in like England, the Netherlands, Belgium, Costa Rica, went to China for a month. Like I just had this like really amazing experience, like both of different types of companies, but also like global consulting experiences. Like it was everything I think a young 20 year old could have wanted out of a job just to see the world, learn what it's like to be a professional. But I got to the point where, um, usually three or four years into consulting, people might go back and get their MBA or pivot to industry. And I was finally ready to go, you know, if I don't try this grad school thing, then I will always regret it. Um, I think I might like it. And, you know, I kept in contact with my professors and so I took the leap. And I'll pause there because I don't want to get too far ahead. But that was the, you know, four years in. I loved my consulting career, but it wasn't like, beyond the intellectual stimulation of like, problem solving. Like, I didn't feel like I was changing the world for the better and for obvious personal reasons. Like, having a sense of impact on the world was just always something that had been baked into my consciousness of like, yes, I want to do well. I want to like, have a comfortable life. But also I want to feel like I'm making like a positive impact on people's experiences. And particularly in consulting, I saw tons of people who were burned out and like, very cynical about their jobs. And I remember constantly thinking, like, does it have to be this way? Like, work is hard, but like, I don't think it, you need to be miserable or to hate your job just to make money. I don't know enough about the world or the science. And so that was something that kind of drew me into finally taking that leap.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's really interesting. One thing that kind of stands out from your experience in consulting for me is the, the fact that you had a unique opportunity to travel and to see very different cultures in a, in a short period of time. I'm curious, now that you've connected all of the dots, um, what was that experience like and what were some of the lessons that you gleaned about human beings from having seen just such a broad range of humans in different cultures?

Speaker B: Yeah, this might sound a little trite, but I think my overall lessons were individual people are surprisingly similar. Like, if you're in an individual interaction with someone, the underlying motivations, psychologies, all those kinds of things are remarkably similar across, you know, whether I was with clients in the UK or China or Central or South America. Um, but where the differences really came was when things like, got aggregated up when, when it became like the US based consulting, uh, group versus in quotes, like the client in China or whatever, all the, like, cultural idiosyncrasies would really magnify up. And that's where you' feel like the tensions between, you know, we approach this problem in this way versus they're seeing things in a drastically different way. And I think that tension was always really confusing for me of going like, you know, if I sit in a room with this, like, with my client counterpart and we go, like, how do we solve this problem? Like, we can usually hash it out like very quickly and with like very little disagreement. But if it becomes like Deloitte or the consulting firm or even our like US based client offering something, the cultural stuff would be these huge hindrances. And I think that is something that plays out in my work of this idea of like these cultural level concepts, narratives, stories we tell about who we are, how we operate. They can really play out in very surprising ways and like really profound ways of just preventing people from connecting or really allowing people to like connect well when you can kind of integrate those things well. But you have to be conscious of

Speaker A: it that it's very, very interesting. You say that, um, you know, my experience, uh, having traveled all over the world and had teams all over the world is exactly the same, is that at a very individual basis, we have a series of characteristics that bring us all together. And when we're involved in problem solving at an individual level, those characteristics are what create the resonance. However, the social pressure and the structure that's built around you culturally, uh, usually prevails. So the moment that you get back into group mode, you tend to take the form of whatever that group is. So you can have a point of view and you can have strong values. But even then, when you go back into that group mode, you tend to subconsciously or unconsciously let go of some of those things in order to fit in. So as an individual. Right. It's more this idea of survival where it says, you know, the moment I'm with a group of people, my number one objective is to make sure that I'm, that I fit into that group more so than kind of staying true to my values. But at an individual level that doesn't happen. So. Super interesting. Yeah, you decided then. So you went, got into academia, you went for your PhD. I assume that's the next, the next step in the.

Speaker B: So that's went from Texas to North Carolina.

Speaker A: Fantastic. So let's, let's talk about that phase, um, perhaps some of the lessons that you took from that phase of your life.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I was at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. And you know, I went in with a pretty broad interest, kind of what I described earlier of like, how can we help people have better, well being, be more engaged in their work, you know, just really that general kind of focus. And as I started exploring things and connecting with my PhD advisors, who was Mike Christian and Jess Christian, who were married academics within our department, I really Started gravitating towards certain concepts. And uh, this has played out in some of my research papers. Concepts like the growth mindset, concepts like work, meaning and meaningfulness. And I think, you know, it was really the childhood that we talked about my interest in stories and storytelling and how those shape the way we see and react to the world. As I was digging into the well being literature as part of my PhD studies, there's a lot of work that, you know, this wasn't my addition but like this idea that the, if you study how people find work meaningful, it always comes back to stories and the narratives that people form in their heads. And that's, you know, over the course of my PhD, I really gravitated towards that space and you know, really bringing back my experiences with losing my mom and all of that of like, you know, work is such an important aspect of many people's lives. It takes up so much of our time. It's often how we define our identities for better or for worse, but also, you know, it's not the only thing. And the idea being that we'd want, you know, we want our work to be meaningful, but like we want our lives to be meaningful and like how do we, how do we make that connection more profoundly, who's doing that better and what lessons can we draw from them? So those were the areas where I started really gravitating towards is, you know, how do we give people tangible tools to make their work more meaningful and then really focusing on some of these like storytelling, narrative angle as my like lens into it for both like the academic literature reasons. But also as we've talked about, that's just always been my, my personal passion way of like seeing the world.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's very interesting. You know, as I've read a lot of the research that you've done, you know, and you talk about how basically the way the stories that we tell shape how we show up. If you think of, you know, when you're in a job interview or when you're retelling a story, that's exactly what happens is you've created your identity based on the way that you've told the story. And then the best example is when you ask a couple, hey, how did you guys meet? Or how did you guys fall in love with each other? And the uh, and the two stories aren't always 100%, you know, there's no synchronicity, 100%. And so each one has told their version based on how they want to show up in the world. But you know, I'm really curious here. Just to get a little bit practical with people is like, you've said that. You know, again, the stories we tell shape how we show up. So if someone's feeling stuck or uninspired in their role, what would you say? Is it like a practical first step that they can take to begin reshaping their intentional narrative and then reconnect with meaning?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I think that's a really good question. And it's, you know, studying what can sound like very fluffy, abstract concepts, like I do. It's something I'm always caught cognizant of, of like, you know, I, I find these ideas really interesting, but also because of my professional background and being in a business school, like, I want this to be tangible and applied and useful for people. And so I think that's, that's a question I always come back to. And I think it's one of the most important questions. The, the thing I'll suggest, and we can relate it to the Hero's journey, uh, stuff, if we want to get there, is first, like, developing a very baseline awareness of, like, what is the story that you're telling? And like, that sounds like a very obvious question, but I think it's something that people don't do very often. And as I kind of was talking about with my experience in college, I don't think I was aware of the story that was running in my head about how I saw myself or what I was doing. And so it can be as something as simple as, you know, taking a walk and really thinking about, like, who do I think I am? Or like, what do I think are the formative experiences that I've had in my life and how have those shaped me? And it's not a thing about it being accurate because all of these life stories, all this stuff is subjective and, uh, biased and all that stuff. But I think it's helpful to go like, in your mind, in your perspective, like, what do you think are the things that are shaping you? Like doing something simple as, like writing that out or just thinking in a structured way about it, I think can be a really important experience. And Dan McAdams, who is on the Hero's Journey paper, he's sort of a big titan in the narrative psychology space. He does in a lot of his work, it's called the Life Story in a interview, where they essentially ask people, you know, they're multiple hour interviews, but it's like, tell your life story. Actually very similar to this podcast kind of thing.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Like, what is the first chapter of your life? What's the second chapter? They use those interviews then to do a lot of very interesting sort of quantitative and qualitative research. But I think doing just a very basic version of yourself of going like, you know, when we're in the day to day experience, we don't have this perception of what the narrative is or what story or stories we're telling. And so can you find a way to take 5 minutes, 10 minutes, whatever, and it doesn't have to be all the time, and just go like, what is my story? And then once you kind of have that, like, that allows you sort of the space to go like, is this serving me? Is there a different story I could tell? Or like, how could I shape the story going forward? Like, but until you're. You have that baseline awareness of like, what even is this story I have in my head? It's very hard to like, then do something.

Speaker A: I think it's very interesting that even in that introspection I see it because if you look at my resume and you look at my story, my journey, I had to tell that story many times because I had different jobs with different companies all over the world. And so every time I was in an interview process, I retold a story. And if I go back in time, my story was different every time. Maybe the essence of the stepping stones or the chapters, perhaps the chapters were framed and structured in similar ways. But I even think that the chapter titles would have been different each time because the perspective is different each time. And what I realized and recognized later on, and this is the other piece, is that many of the early chapters were not even my story. And that's why, you know, when I first asked the question, hey, what were you like when you were between the ages of 2 and 6? People tend to give you an answer of what their parents would tell them. M or though he learned to read at three on his own. So that's your story. But it's very natural because even into your teenage and Even into your 20s, many of those stories are not really yours. You remember them in the way that they were told to you or the way that you were telling them to fit into a specific situation. And the other piece too is how much does your story change based on who you're telling it to? Which I think we'll get into the hero's journey now. But it's also part of this idea of like, like becoming more and more authentic to your true self and that your story becomes more authentic and more fixed in a way, as you get deeper into your life, because you start distilling or shedding away some of those elements that stop serving you. So maybe riff a little bit on these concepts.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the. So starting off with the, you know who you're telling the story to. Uh, one of my favorite papers, uh, is Ibarra and Barbulescu, uh, 2010. I'm not very good at remembering papers, but I read paper all the time. And so I think that's what it was. And it's like a theory paper about how people narrativize their work stories and all that stuff. And one of my favorite parts of it is they're talking about exactly this, of how do people develop what they call, like, a narrative repertoire of, like, the stories that they tell about, in this case, about their workplace. And one of the insights that they, they have is that you tell a story. So I, I tell a version of my work story to you. And let's imagine, like, whatever way I'm framing it or whatever dots I'm connecting are weird, or they're, like, upsetting, or they're not. They don't cohere with what you, David, might be expecting. Then you're a nice person. You would probably, like, go along with it. But, like, you might give me, like, a raised eyebrow, or you might, like, go, uh, well, do you mean that, like, there might be some, like, subtle corrections towards my story? Or you might go like, oh, but did that mean that this happened? Like, you're trying to relate it to stories that you, you have in your head. And that's like, a very profound process of if I'm telling my story and I'm not, I'm getting feedback that, like, something about it is not right or is not. Doesn't make sense, doesn't feel authentic. Then you're going to give me some social feedback, and I'm going to either consciously or subconsciously internalize some of that and go, next time I tell the story, I'm going to omit that one part that didn't seem to work, and I'm going to either tweak it or add an additional different part, and then I'll tell the story again. And then the next person might really glom, um, onto one part. And so we refine our stories through the social process. That might not even be something we're aware of, where you end up going 10 years. Like, I tell my story in this way because you've been slowly, like, workshopping your life story, like, implicitly over many years. And I think there's, like, a cynical way of looking at that of, like, uh, all of our stories are made up, and we're just trying to impress people. And I think there's a degree of that, that. But I also. The positive side, I think you kind of hinted at is, like, you also feel. And they talk about this in the paper, like, there's also an internal feeling of authenticity that matters of, like, is the story I'm telling? Like, does that actually feel right to me as well? So not only do people like it, but, like, do I like it? And so it's this continual process where, yes, you're honing your story so that it, like, coheres to what people might expect or feel feels legitimate, but you're also doing it in a way that, like, what actually feels true to me. Um, so that I love that paper because I think it speaks to exactly what you're talking about, both of, like, the internal and the external aspects of it.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I can tell you from my personal experience what the case was. Clearly, that I shifted my story, my narrative, based on this idea of wanting to create resonance with the other individual. And it was in many cases, it was very, very conscious. It was very specifically, I, okay, I need to tell this version of this story because that's the version that would make sense to this individual or that would get me the objective. And then with time, as I got to know myself better and I understood the idea that I'm not going to ever be able to please everybody, that concept shifted my narrative because it said, okay, what's more important? That I tell the story they want to hear or that I tell the story I want to hear? And the story I want to hear is the one that allows me to go to sleep at night without ever having to worry about man, I said this. I didn't say this. And that's where I finally came to this story of, like, no, I am not perfect, and part of my story is the imperfection. But think about how long it takes us to get to that point where we can actually very openly tell those sides of the story which, uh, form part of it. And until you learn that that's part of the. Part of the journey and part of the hero's journey is to fall, then you don't tell those sides of the story. I'd love to jump into and you can tag along to this, but I'd love to get into the hero's journey, and I'd love to get into some Meat. I know that we're kind of in between North Carolina, Massachusetts in the work, but I'm sure that the flow is. And so if you want to incorporate that into the story, I know that the Hero's Journey and the narrative of the Hero's Journey is the fundamental piece of the work that you've done. Um, let's get right into it.

Speaker B: Yeah, so, yeah, you're right. So most of the Hero's Journey stuff was in North Carolina, though, because the publishing timeline in academia is so long, it ended up not getting published until right after I'd. Or no, right before I started my job at bc. But yeah, so this work, I think, is just will really connect a lot of the things that we've been talking about personally and academically, um, you know, digging in, so the formation of it. And I'll get into what the Hero's Journey was, was this idea of, like, how can we help people tell a better story? We know that from the literature that the way we tell our stories is subjective and we can connect the dots that we want to, as we've been talking about. You know, so that kind of would suggest that, like, if you help people connect dots in a better way, quote, unquote way, whatever that means, then that might be really helpful because people draw a lot of the meaning out of it. And so I was working a lot with Kurt Gray, who's a psychologist at UNC Chapel Hill now at Ohio State, and a couple other people, and Kurt and I were really talking about, like, so if we want people to tell a better story, like, what might that story look like? And he and I, because we were both kind of like, story nerds, had really been talking about, like, oh, well, you read any storytelling script book, they're talking about the Hero's Journey like that, you know, they're. They're putting that forward as this template for how to write a good blockbuster, compelling movie script, whatever. So, like, what if we applied that to people's lives? Like, would the way you can tell a more compelling movie script, like, would that help people tell a compelling life story? And so that was kind of like the germ of the idea that we built out. And so take a half step back. The Hero's Journey, for those who aren't aware, is, uh, was this concept kind of created by Joseph Campbell, who was a mythologist, and he had studied all of these stories from across the globe and across, like, most of recorded human history going back to, like, Gilgamesh. And, like, a lot of these really old myths and ended up finding that, you know, wow, there's cultural nuances, plot nuances, all those things, like most of the most enduring stories followed the same general story template. And I think in Joseph Campbell's version, there's like 17 steps, which is a lot, and I never have memorized of them. But we, uh, in ours kind of boil it down to seven key elements of the story and I'll just briefly run through them now. Yeah, it's, you know, you start off with some sort of protagonist who is often like an unknown regular person somewhere along. So think of if you've seen Star wars, like Luke is on a random planet, he's a farm boy kind of thing, and for whatever reason ends up, there's a moment of shift. So there's some. A person comes into their life, something happens, and it causes them to go into like a fantastical world. A new set of experiences just changes the lens in some profound way. And then they end up on some sort of quest again. It could be like throwing the ring into Mordor, or it could be a, uh, more personal quest, depending on the type of story that you're telling. And along you're, as you're seeking, you know, going along the quest, you gather together allies that can be mentors, that can be people alongside of you. But you also face a lot of challenges, that can be. Be nemeses, that can be internal self doubt, anxiety, all these types of things. But as a result of facing those challenges, you end up transformed in some profound way again. Sometimes, like in a superhero movie, it's like a literal transformation of getting super powers. But also in a lot of movies, it's like gaining some sort of new self insight that helps change the way you see the world. And then as a result of that transformation, you usually return home, uh, you know, in the broad sense of the term, to benefit others, to share your newfound gifts, and to sort of help improve the world. And so as I've been sort of dropping in, you know, Lord of the Rings, Star wars, all of the Marvel superheroes, like these are all classic examples of the hero's journey. But like so many of the most popular fiction myths, all these things follow this story template.

Speaker A: What I find very interesting as well is, you know, going back, you know, again, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm always very cautious about throwing in religion because, you know, religion can be such a hot subject. But in this case, you know, all of the enlightened individuals that created or that were created or that brought forward a story is the Exact same thing. You think of the story of the Buddha, you think of Jesus, you think the Bhagavad Gita. They're all stories of these individuals that go exactly through those steps. Um, so it's, it really does kind of fall in to the story of every single human that, that you can encounter. And so now with, with this hero's journey, right? And it's the way that you've kind of created. You, you studied the fact that the power of how the leaders lend the lens of the leader's journey can then help you create a story. How would you then help leaders start with navigating that change, the challenge, the reinvention. How would you help them bridge this stuff?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, um, that I'll briefly talk about, like the way we, we showed the, the effects of this in sort of two ways. And the second, the second part of it will really, I think, speak to your question. But the first way is we wanted to bring this like, very abstract story into like, real world terms. This idea that like, a lot of people, if you say like, are you on a hero's journey? They'd go like, no. What are you talking about? Get out of here. Um, but like, like, we profoundly believe that like, no, like any life story can follow this because, you know, the amount, the variance of movies that can follow this sort of framework is super wide. Everything from fantastical to very normal. And so part of like, what we wanted to do in making this applicable and tangible was going like, what does this actually look like? So we ended up taking those elements and developing a questionnaire that, you know, asked people questions of like, you know, on a scale of 1 to 7, you know, 1 being strongly disagree to 7 being strongly agree, like, to what extent do you have new experiences in your life? And that would be like an example of getting at. Do people have these moments of shift that I alluded to or like, to what extent, like, do you have goals and missions as like an idea of quest? And so there's a, uh, questionnaire and we were able to see like, you know, if people picked all sevens across the board, then they, whether, uh, consciously or not, saw their life as having the same elements as a hero's journey versus if you disagreed with all of those, then all of these like key elements of the story, you're like, oh no, that doesn't represent, present my life at all. And what we saw was, through a lot of various analyses and studies was people who tended to say yes to all of those items about like, your life matches a Hero's Journey. Those were the people that rated their lives as most meaningful, often rated their work as most meaningful, felt resilient, reported fewer depressive symptoms, a whole host of well being things. But essentially that first part showed that like, seeing your life story as a hero's journey as like, measured by this questionnaire was really associated across the board with a positive, uh, well being, even accounting for a lot of things that we already know. And so that was very exciting. But getting to your second part, you know, then what do we do? So are we just showing that people who have really heroic lives or have really great lives that like, they think their lives are meaningful? Like, that's interesting on some level, but that's not like, what do you do with that? But we wanted to go like, no, can we help people to do this, to uh, see their lives, life more as a hero's journey and not in like an inauthentic way, but in a way that's like grounded from their own experiences. Because we've talked about, like, that's very important. Like, am I just telling the story someone wants me to tell or is this like, feel true to my experiences? And so we developed in the second part of the paper what we called the Hero's Journey Restoring Intervention, which was a, uh, series of questions. I think it's eight questions in all, short writing prompts, where we go element by element and have people reflect on how their experiences, their life might match up to the hero's journey. And importantly, we aren't telling people what we're doing, we're just saying, like, people see their lives in different ways. Here's a couple questions that we want to ask you to like, think about this, like, think about elements of your life. And so we'd go, you know, what kinds of new experiences shaped you to be who you are today? Or what is a letter? What are times in which you felt like you transformed? And like, what did that look like? So very much like not saying, like, transformation is important. How, like, how have you transformed? But just going like, what are some ways that like, you might connect to this idea? And so we ask people the seven questions and then we show them their responses which had, huh, what? Like indirectly we've had them create their own hero's journey story. And then we say, exactly, yes. And we say at the end, like, reflecting on all of these elements which are authentically based on your own life. Like, like how might you be a hero on a journey? So allow. So sort of backdooring people into, like, you might not think you have these elements of this story in your life, but actually you just generated them. So now seeing that, what do you think? And people would reflect on like, actually my life has been a lot more meaningful, or I've showed a lot of resilience, like all these very profound connections. And we saw a lot of the same effects where when people went through this intervention, they ended up reporting their life as more meaningful, reporting feeling more resilient. We had various like behavioral things that people felt more equipped to handle their most pressing personal problems. So a lot of very like broad based well being indicators. But where that, I think that really answers your second question is whether that's going through the hero's journey intervention per se or something akin to it. But like we talked about early on of like, like establishing what is the baseline story about your life now? Like we identified at least one way in which you can go, how do I connect those dots in a way that feels more meaningful based on this like template that has really endured through thousands of years across global society. And it's just super popular. And we point to a lot of things about why this might work. Some of that is that familiarity of like we like as humans when stories follow what seemed like plot point to plot point. But also this idea that I think the hero's journey being so enduring is not just a coincidence. It's because this is like this package that summarizes in a very compelling way some of the most important things about being a human. And so if you're telling your life story, if you're connecting the story, identifying some of those things, then your life, you're going like, oh, my life is meaningful. And all together in this like very compelling package.

Speaker A: Yeah, I really enjoyed that explanation because I believe that it, what I see, you know, in replaying heroes journeys, right? And some heroes are maybe a superhero in a movie, but others are people that I know in my life or guests on the podcast is this idea is the emotional connection that we feel as individuals listening to the hero's journey, right? And we relate to it many times unconsciously, subconsciously, to the fact that we've all grown up in some way in some circle, whether we were in the most privileged moment of all with doubt, with self doubt, feeling like imposters, not being the underdog, being the one that wasn't seen in some moment. And then we all have that, that quantum leap, that paradigm shift, that wow, all of a sudden, no, no, you can do something with your life, life. And then we all, so we all go through those seven stages and emotionally we resonate to these moments. And sometimes, you know, we're in a moment in our life where we perhaps we haven't hit chapter four or chapter five. And so. But we know what's coming now. So it's like you have that emo, you have that tie to look up to or look forward to. Right. And then in others, you're further along in the journey. So you look back with, you know, because it's already done and it's over. You look at it with. With positive nostalgia in a way. Like, so this emotional tie in that brings a lot of this kind of story together and helps us resonate to it. I'm curious. You know, a lot of the journey and a lot of the work that you do is at an individual level, because everybody has a journey and everybody has a hero's journey. But meaning and happiness, a lot of the time is tied to impact. And impact usually has to do with. With how much you're affecting other human beings and communities. So where does that tie in, in the work that you're doing? And how. How do you help individuals go from individual hero journey to actually recognizing the true impact is because you're the best version of yourself. You're actually helping others as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think two responses that. So first is one thing that like reviewers and when people hear about the hero heroes journey stuff, they. They often default to like, oh, it's like the lone hero taking everything on their own shoulders. And that's very like, like, of course you American would think that way, like individualistic kind of thing. And like I hear that, that comment. But what I love about the hero's journey and it's baked into it from Joseph Campbell's work and all that stuff is like, the heroes are very rarely doing things on their own. Like, there's the. And there's two elements that I'll highlight of the seven. One is, you know, the allies aspect of it. Like. Like, we are shaped by people who have helped us. And often we would never would have gotten to the transformation point if we weren't helped along with people. But like the key capper to most heroes journeys is going back and using your transformation not to like benefit yourself, but to benefit others. And so that's something that I think is a, uh, is an unheralded aspect of it that, you know, we often think of the challenge and the transformation from a very individual standpoint. But then we look at, you know, how does it then lead you to want to shape uh, and benefit others. And I saw that a lot in, like, as I was, like, doing the research with the team, we would read through the stories that people would provide. And, you know, there was a couple things that really stuck out to me is one is the things that people were able to find positive meaning out of was always very surprising to me in a very positive way. Like, I know we're very adept at finding meaning as humans, but. But, you know, there were things of people who had faced, like, immense addiction problems, had gone to jail, had very tragic childhoods, and all of these things. You know, they weren't saying, like, oh, I'm so glad it happened that, like, now, whatever. But they were saying like, yes, this was horrible, but this really shaped me in this profound way. Gave me, showed me either how strong I was, gave me these skills. And the second aspect of what I was going to say is, almost without fail, people are like, and now what I'm doing with that is now I'm a social worker or now with my own kids, I am dedicated towards making sure that that doesn't happen to them or that I give them the skills or show them the way out or show them that things don't have to be that way. And so, you know, I saw it time after time in those stories of people taking some of the most difficult experiences you can imagine and going like, either in very small ways or in very, like, huge, like, socially impactful ways. Like, I'm taking my journey and I'm using it to make my family's life better, my community's life better, or like, you know, people at work's life better.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I believe a lot of the work that you're doing doesn't bring you to the final chapter. It usually brings you to the next chapter. And that next chapter could be chapter three, chapter four. Like, so you catch them in the right moment in their journey. And perhaps even the journey has these kind of cyclical moments where you have many, many journeys within the journey too, as well. So then that gives you the opportunity to say, wow, I had never seen that my story was actually so impactful. And now that I have that voice and I have this way, this narrative that you talk about, I can now go and really make that impact and help others and that next generation, etc. I could be speaking to you, uh, all day long. I don't know if you want to, that you were about to say something. So I don't know if you want to say one last thing about this, but then my next question will Be. What does this next chapter look like for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The one thing I was going to say was, uh, spinning off of what you were just saying was I. I have my students, uh, my undergrad students run through the Hero's Journey exercise as our last class day, um, in my organizational behavior class here at Boston College. And they echo the similar thing of going, like, you know, I feel like I'm just starting my journey. Um, and so, like, what do I do with this, like, framework? It seems cool, but what do I do with it? And we talk through it and we discuss that, you know, this is showing you a framework for what the next five years can be. And I'm encouraging people, either looking retrospectively or prospectively, like, you know, if you're a little more intentional with what you're trying to do, like, you might not achieve on all of those things, but you're way more likely to have a career or life that fulfills these elements if you're, like, have them consciously in mind versus just, like, seeing what happened. And so that's always helped my students of go. Like, even if you're just starting this initial hero's journey of what will be a grander hero's journey of your life, like, these elements can still kind of give you, like, a menu or a recipe book of, like, not exactly you have to do it in this order, but, like, having new experiences, you know, gathering together with people who support you and teach you things like, these are things can be helpful for anyone. And so to your. Your question about what's next, I think the. I'm building. I'm trying to build on this research in a number of different ways. Not necessarily directly Hero's Journey, but I'm just really interested in. I think you were making a really good point about this, like, emotional resonance of stories. And so one paper that I'm actively working on, which is in sort of the review process, is this idea that we have these, like, archetypal narratives about our work that are based on, you know, think of, like, what's it like to be a nurse? Or what's it like to be a firefighter or an academic or a writer or a custodian or, you know, whatever. Um, we have these stories in our head. And I've been exploring what happens when you're in moments that seem to feel like the movie, um, where you're just like, oh, like, I could imagine this on the TV show about this occupation. Or these are the moments when I imagine what it's like to be a college professor, this is what I thought of, and I'm arguing in this, that those moments feel incredibly meaningful because of this intuitive emotional connection to these narratives that are so familiar, so legitimate. And that might sound kind of obvious, but where I think it's really important is that can happen even in really difficult and distressing experiences. You know, you can think of nurses, what they're there to do, or healthcare workers generally. What they're there to do is often very tragic, very difficult, very emotionally and physically taxing. But at the same time, like, that's the story. That's why. That probably is why a lot of those people got into it. And so I've, I've across a number of studies showed that people can go like, yes, this experience is very distressing. I. My emotions are high. I don't know how it's going to turn out. But also, this is so meaningful because this is why I'm here. This is what I got here to do. And so that narratives are helping, not just like a retrospective, how has my life been meaningful? But it actually shapes our in the moment experience. And so I'm trying to build on this idea of, like, how do collective narratives in a lot of different forms actually impact, like, our individual experiences and shape our reactions? And to the extent I can, you know, finding the positive, tangible, applicable ways that people can do that.

Speaker A: That's amazing. That's amazing. Ben, time's up here. If people want to get in touch with you, uh, what's the best way?

Speaker B: Way? Yeah, I have a website. I believe it's Ben A Rogers dot com. But if you just search Ben Rogers, Boston College, you'll, you'll see my websites. And the one thing I'll plug from that is I have a free version, uh, of the Hero's Journey Restoring intervention that people can use. I don't use the data. I'm the only one with access to it. But if you take the restoring intervention, it will email you your completed Hero's Journey story. So if anyone wants to do it, absolutely free to use Confidential, all that stuff. But, you know, I had lots of people emailing me saying, like, can I participate in this? And so I worked with a research assistant to kind of put that up for people. So that is always there along with the other research that I have some.

Speaker A: Well, I hope that you receive tons of those notes saying, hey, I want to be part of the next version in that next chapter, because I really think it will help people. And as you say, I think your. The impact is that you're building uh, a generation of individuals that finally see themselves with a ton more meaning. Meaning. And because of that, they come out into the world with bigger impact. So, Ben, thank you so much for your time today. I really enjoyed this conversation. I don't usually say this, but I think we could have a chapter two of the journey here because, uh, there's just so much more to talk about. And I think, uh, what I love is that, you know, it's theory, but it's grounded theory. Therefore, you're able to really apply it, and that. That's quite rare, uh, to find in terms of theory. So thank you so much for, For. For your time today.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. I'll. I'd be glad to come back anytime you want.

Speaker A: Awesome. Well, thank you. And to everybody listening in, we'll see you next week for another conversation. And, uh, in the meantime, we'll stay connected and conscious. Thank you.