Sarah Morse | A CFO's Path to Conscious Leadership | CFO Triodos Bank

Sarah Morse: I remember falling asleep on the train numerous times, um, on my audit. Yeah. I got home that night and I was like, gosh, actually, I feel a huge sense of relief. I've got an option to take here. There's a lot of golf talk and a lot of football talk. Well, and maybe the male dominated corporate world.

Host: I remember when Esme, my daughter, was that age during Pandemic, and it was the most challenging time to have a Todd, uh, knocking about in the house while you're trying to do your job.

Sarah Morse: Your job. Poor kid.

Host: That's absolutely amazing to be able to juggle that with being a CFO of, uh, a large bank.

Sarah Morse: Yes.

Host: Like, how do you, how do you juggle all of it?

Sarah Morse: I feel like there should be a really, you know, succinct, clear answer here. And I'm going to add one more lob, one more thing in there, which is that my.

Host: So welcome to season two of the Conscious Finance Podcast. I'm delighted to be joined today by Sarah Morse, who is CFO of Triodos bank in the uk. Um, and Sarah's got a great story. She has had, um, a tendency of doing things a little bit differently with a lot of purpose behind it. So we're really keen to get under the bonnet of your experience today and your story. And, um, hopefully there'll be some value in there for the audience because you haven't quite taken the traditional route into finance, perhaps. Um, and there's real passion behind what you do. So I think there's some great learnings in there for, for everyone. So thank you for joining us, Sarah. It's great to have you.

Sarah Morse: Thank you. It's wonderful to be here on a. Very hot.

Host: It's a bit warm.

Sarah Morse: We've got the aircon on, which is. Yeah, it's lovely. And I. You people online can't see your office, but I just want to say how lovely it is. Such a nice space and I love all the plants.

Host: It is great. I do like my plants. How does it feel behind the mic?

Sarah Morse: Um, slightly awkward.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Yeah, slightly awkward. Like, I feel like I'm looking at this or you. Or this. Or you.

Host: Okay.

Sarah Morse: Used to it.

Host: First podcast.

Sarah Morse: First podcast, yes. So bear with me.

Host: It's a privilege. And I guess let's start, um, with what. What has been giving you energy recently.

Sarah Morse: Oh, okay. Lots. Uh, where to start? So I was just telling you about my Downing street visit, so.

Host: No, that doesn't happen too often.

Sarah Morse: No, it really doesn't. Twice. Twice in my life down the street. So. First one was for A charity that's actually, it was Bristol born, called Flamingo foundation. Um, run by an amazing, amazing lady called Catherine Sparks who is also Bristol based. Um, and years back I was had the privilege of being asked to jump in as a trustee with her. And um, it was when Sam Cameron was running her kind uh, of annual awards around charitable.

Host: Okay.

Sarah Morse: Projects.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Um, so, um, Flamingo foundation got shortlisted and we went along for a drinks reception that was more illustrious.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: And more in behind the scenes of Downing street than my visit last week. Um, but my visit last week which is very current, uh, was. Yeah, it was just really exciting to go and represent Triodos externally because I haven't done much of that. And it was all about getting this climate and nature bill which has been bombed and around for about five years. Right. Um, in front of the government and actually for them to take some action on it. Um, and I went with. Yep. A number of other petitioners and we handed this box of 650 letters in at the door of Downing Street.

Host: Wow.

Sarah Morse: To the security guard.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Met the cat.

Host: Okay.

Sarah Morse: And then the door shut.

Host: Oh, fine. And you were rubbing shoulders with some pretty interesting people.

Sarah Morse: Yeah, I know. Yeah. Hugh Fernley Whittingstall was there. He is a massive advocate in this space. Um, and does a lot of good work actually. Um, but yeah, it was run by Zero Hour, which are, uh, a not for profit, um, organization advocating for, for change that we need in the world. And this climate and nature bed is one of their big pieces of work at the moment. Um, so yeah, it was brilliant. It's just, I think mornings like that just really reinforce, talking to new people, meeting people in the same kind of not industry but in the same. Wanting the same changes. Um, meeting them, hearing them, their stories just reinforces and reinvigorates you when, when I go back into work because let's be fair, I work in finance.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Um, sometimes we can feel a bit far from the front line if you like. Um, so yeah, it's really nice to be able to bring that back in and share with my team as well. And for my team, I guess to feel that finance isn't something that's in the kind of basement.

Host: Yeah, yeah. Ah, that's amazing.

Sarah Morse: Away at the numbers.

Host: And what's the goal of the bill?

Sarah Morse: The goal of the bill is to get the government to put into legislation the climate related targets that we need in order to say stop climate change. Let's, let's call, kind of calm it down.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Um, to temper it so that we stay within planetary boundaries, um, which um, there's a lot of scientific jargon behind it. So I won't try and repeat that and pretend that I understand or know it all. Um, but the point is at the moment it's more of a soft target and ambition and if it's not in law, the accountability can kind of easily slip away. So the idea is get into law. But it's been around since 2020.

Host: Do you think, are you positive the push last week might get it over the line?

Sarah Morse: I, uh, don't know. I'm conscious of the priorities the government's trying to balance right now. But that's the government's job. Right. It's very easy or sorry it's not easy to find the way to prioritize longer term ambitions when you're faced with such short term challenges. It's like running a business. You have to find the way to do the strategy, the longer term piece at the same time.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Um, and it's about making choices, so I really hope so.

Host: Good. Well, let's get into your story then. So your career path is quite fascinating and to uh, get to where you are now. CFO of Triodos, which is uh, an amazing organization, sort of a beacon of positive um, influence in the business community. Um, also B Corp, um, and um, and you haven't necessarily taken the traditional path. Ah. So can you talk us through your sort of whistle stop history?

Sarah Morse: Whistle stop history? Yes. Uh, in a very brief nutshell I think when you talk about traditional routes you think about um, school, university, um, do some kind of accounting and finance degree come out, complete your qualifications, uh, maybe in one of the big four but also maybe in, in, in a business um, setting. Um, and kind of find yourself qualifying probably 20, 23, 24, having spent quite a few years studying but also getting some work experience. Um, and then see, follow the route whether you're going financial accounting or management accounting, what kind of route you want to want to go. Um, your kind of career I guess starts there. Um, and maybe I think we're told people are very well planned. My personal view is most people don't have these massive career maps planned out. Um, you might have some ideas. Um, but I think I'm probably if there was a scale of people who are very well planned and organized and clear on the steps they want along the way to get to the ambition they want to a. Well, let's just see what happens. I'm probably definitely in the. Let's just see what happens. But I'm quite clear weirdly about where I want to get to. So I've always had the ambition to be at, uh, CFO level. Not because of the cfo, kind of, I don't know, because it's the top per se, but because I prefer being in a role where the boundaries are pretty much the edge of the company and where it's about what can we do together, how can we move this company forward, what are we here to provide, whether it's to customers or wider stakeholders. Um, and so my ambition has always been around. Well, I want to be able to play a part in all of that bigger conversation. And actually in the finance side, unless you go down a very, I guess a strategy route or you go down the full finance route and you say, well, I need to be the CFO or the head finance director, whatever the top are in the business. So I guess the ambition was always there. But where I started. So what did I do? I went to school actually in Bristol. Um, Red Maids, which is now called Red and High, I believe. I think you know it. Um, and my, I left there with A levels in biology, chemistry and maths.

Host: Okay.

Sarah Morse: Um, when I was choosing my A levels, I believed I was going to be a marine biologist or something, some kind of scientist route. Um, still very interested in it today. But I think I hit the end of my A levels. A hit the summer season. I didn't get into the university course, my first choice, but I, I had my, my second option available, um, which was computer science and maths in London. Um, I think there was a, an element of. I, I'd been, I'd been at boarding school. Dad was military, so that's another part of story. We can cover that separately. Yeah. But just in terms of background, I was there kind of on a military bursa, uh, if you like, a bursary. And I came out at the end of those A levels into summer holidays. I hadn't lived at home for seven years.

Host: Wow.

Sarah Morse: And so I've been there in holidays, clearly. But suddenly I was like, oh, gosh, do you know what? I'd actually. And ah, my parents had stopped moving around, so I'd formed some friendship groups which I hadn't been able to do when they were moving quite so readily. Hence why I'd gone to boarding school. And yeah, I just felt like I didn't want to then commit to another three years of going somewhere else. I just actually needed a bit of stay. Of course I was 17, so my parents are like, um, it was, it'd all been planned and then it and then it kind of started unraveling. So I came down one morning to a newspaper cutting. My dad left out with three jobs that I got. He was like, if ah, you're staying, get a job. So I phoned up one AAT trainee, A ah, local accountancy firm in Chippenham called Monahan's, got the interview, got the job and, and that's where it all started. So then I joined them, um, trained. I actually then had to go into an AAT route before I could do acc.

Host: Okay. Because you didn't go down the university.

Sarah Morse: Because I didn't have a degree. So yeah, got my AAT qualification there for a couple of years. Um, it was great. Um, it was obviously very kind of a training based contract. Um, the pay was horrific and um, I say that genuinely. Um, it was great the support but the pay was very low. Um, for what you were doing. Um, I think I realized in the second year when I was asked to mentor somebody who had joined to start their training program. They had a university degree in geography. They were paid more than double what I was paid and I was asked to mentor them. Wow. So at that point I kind of went, whoa, what's. Yeah, this is quite right. I then moved to London and um, got a job in an investment bank at five times the pay.

Host: Nice.

Sarah Morse: Yes, it was nice until I was working in an investment bank at this point.

Host: Had you. So you finished your AAT?

Sarah Morse: So I did my 80. I've been there for two years so I've got my 80 qualification. Okay. Then I went to, um, was moving to London so I just needed to find a job in London. Found a job at this investment bank. It wasn't with any training contract, it was very much an assistant account and I. Payroll, um, accounts payable job.

Host: Got you.

Sarah Morse: Um, so I joined there. I was there for just under four years and um, I basically got them to commit m to paying for my stud materials.

Host: Right.

Sarah Morse: But no courses.

Host: Oh wow. And they're expensive.

Sarah Morse: Yeah. And they're expensive. Well, yeah, exactly. So they did the cheap bit. Study materials plus exam fees.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Everything else was then self study and self funded. Um, well there was nothing to fund I guess because I didn't do any courses.

Host: Oh, right.

Sarah Morse: So I self studied.

Host: Oh wow.

Sarah Morse: For two and a half years.

Host: Okay.

Sarah Morse: Um, whilst doing a full time job. Whilst doing a full time job.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: And passed my ACCA, um, when I was 20, just turning 23. 22. 23, yeah. I can't remember exactly. I remember I was a bit annoyed because I was like only a few months off, being the youngest, you know, in the cohort of the youngest people to qualify because I hadn't done the university route obviously. So anyway, so that, you know, I did that. I remember falling asleep on the train numerous times, um, on my audit. Audit and legal, they were the books that just killed me. I had an hour commute in and out of London for the first year and yeah, I still spent a lot of time sleeping on people's shoulders. If any of you are watching, I'm really sorry.

Host: I can't imagine those modules are particularly gripping.

Sarah Morse: No, they weren't. No. Um, and when you're doing a lot of study. So I was doing um, four exams a time just because I wanted to get through them quickly.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: So that was how I then qualified. So I then reached all the first

Host: time passes as well.

Sarah Morse: First time passes, Yeah. I mean I scraped, bought it.

Host: Yeah. Okay.

Sarah Morse: I think it was like a 52% or something. And there's a 50% pass is a pass. Pass is a pass. Yep. So yeah, did that. And then of course I needed to wait a little bit because I didn't have quite enough um, experience for my study like the logbook. Um, so I kind of, it was probably another year afterwards before I could then have enough in my logbook. Then I had my full qualification. Um, I was working say for this investment bank which culturally was really not me. It was a real, an amazing eye opener to a world that I don't want to be in. Um, and probably then set me on a path to finding different types of work and thinking about why or what, you know, the purpose of some companies. So I think by that point I'd started to form a view. There's certain places I wouldn't work my next job. So I was four years at the investment bank. So then I moved on. Um, uh, was 23, 24 and I moved to a company called Travel2 which was based in North London. Um, right. Um. Oh, what's the name of it? North of Holloway. Gonna forget it now. Um, but it was this wonderful old 70s building. Um, Archway. Sorry, how can you forget the name of Archway? Sat on an archway is on a hill looking out over London. So seventh story of this building was amazing in the morning, sunrises were beautiful. But it was like stepping back about 20 years. They were still smoking in the office when I arrived.

Host: Wow.

Sarah Morse: And this was 2004. Yeah. Uh, so that was a, it was. Been a family run business for about 25 years. Had just been bought out by an American Company and um, was therefore going through quite a period of transition. They had no management accounting. It was all just accounts payable, accounts receivable, you know, produce some, um, annual reports, etc. And your accounts. Um, so, yeah, I came in as a management account and to try and bring that in. And in the space of two years, I went from running a team of kind of, or setting up this management accounts team of three to running the department of 30.

Host: Wow.

Sarah Morse: And during that time they also acquired, um, a company called Travelbag, um, which had an Indian, um, footprint. Um, so had all of that kind of. And that was another 200 employees.

Host: So was the finance team originally just three and it grew or.

Sarah Morse: No, no, sorry. The accounts payable, accounts receivable, et cetera, was like 26 individuals.

Host: Oh, wow, that's a big transaction.

Sarah Morse: And then there was no. Yeah, massive transact, um, and there was no management accounts team. So it was brought in to create one to then bring insight.

Host: Um, not many people go from management accountant to CFO in two years.

Sarah Morse: No. Yeah, just pure luck, I suppose, and maybe a bit of kind of determination. And, um. Well, I think the reality is that there was just a gap of somebody that was able to look critically at what was going on to the finances of that business and understand it and translate it in a way to these American investors that they could understand and they could know where to support the business. Um, so my nutshell conversation on this is now not a nutshell, I realize, but I shall keep going.

Host: That's good.

Sarah Morse: Um, the kind of, I suppose the crystallizing moment and what probably really made them feel they wanted to put their trust in me was a piece of work I ran that looked at the, um, profit of the firm in its different, um, products. So they hadn't really. The businesses started losing money just as I joined. It was the boom of Internet travel. So there was an obvious reason why. But there was also this company had been around for years and it ran through high street travel agents. So it used its network of like 3,000 high street travel agents to do business. So generally it's for people for tailor made holidays. They want to come in and talk about their holiday. They're not booking that online. So they had this concept that how can we, you know, why are we losing money? Anyway, I, uh, ran this piece of work for about three months. Um, and it was quite difficult to run it because there was a lot of resistance to wanting to provide so much data. And at the end of it I said, look, your issue is every time you answer the phone to sell a flight, you lose 20 pounds. Wow.

Host: That's not a great business model.

Sarah Morse: That's not a great business model. And they didn't believe me to start with. So it took then a couple of months. Um, and there was a new managing director actually joined at similar time which was really helpful. Um, and between the two of us, and she'd understood it, um, we clarified yes because of the changes in the business model, going all over the place and the whole stream of activity that happens after the phone call. Um, that's what was costing them money. So we changed the business model um, and uh, is still around to this day, um, operating, um, probably thanks to

Host: that piece of work.

Sarah Morse: So it was brilliant. And somebody else would have got there, there but I was there at the moment, um, and able to see that and bring that to the table. Um, I will say so. It sounds glorious. And there was some massive highlights. It was also, you know, I spent a number of nights um, on the bus on the way home crying from the sheer stress of being. So I was 24 to 27 when I was there and the pressure was pretty immense. Um, um, so great learning curve. There's lots of stuff I wouldn't do again and I probably wasn't mature enough to be running a team of 30 individuals who probably didn't get as much out of me being their leader as they would. Hopefully now, um, I was very focused on the solving the business problem and not so much running the team. So that was kind of really real baptism of fire. Yeah, baptism of fire. Um, and then I was moving. I knew I wanted to relocate back to Wiltshire. I'd been in London for about eight years by this point and so I, Nationwide had always been a well respected employer, um, in the, in the um, area and my, you know, a number of friends and colleagues who'd had roles there. I was interested in banking but it was more because it was. Came as like the local employer of kind of, of choice really. Um, and so I'd applied to Nationwide and got this role, um, and I got this role as their financial planning and analysis manager.

Host: So from CFO to FPA manager because

Sarah Morse: the travel business I suppose was such a very different, a different business. It was a 200 million pound turn of business. It wasn't small. But you compare that to Nationwide and you're going into a completely different kind of scale.

Host: Um, but that's quite an interesting move in itself in that a lot, a lot of people get obsessed by job titles and sometimes ego can get in the way. Um, and, and, and when it comes to mapping career, although perhaps you say you, uh, didn't plan it or think about it, you seem to have really good instincts one way or the other, like understanding the different paths you can take and how to build up that sort of complementary skill set that a CFO needs. And what, what do you think it is that gives you that instinct?

Sarah Morse: Um, I'm not sure I'd recognize the instincts there. I think I don't. Well, would I? I just like, I like doing those things, so I have done them.

Host: So commercial stuff is where you gravitate.

Sarah Morse: Commercial stuff is where I gravitate and get my energy and so. So you say, um, I've built up this kind of cross rapport. Financial accounting, interestingly, I've, I've never done a strong sinton.

Host: Yeah, but you started in practice.

Sarah Morse: Started in practice, yeah. So I did a lot of farmers accounts.

Host: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Morse: Not quite the same as production of, you know, corporate set of statutory reports. But um. Yeah, I can absolutely, um, buy into the technicalities of it, but I haven't actually. Yeah. Ever. None of my roles have been securely within financial accounting, financial reporting. Um, so I have more gone with my gravitated towards instinctively the things I enjoy doing. Because I do think there's. If you enjoy doing something, you're probably going to excel in it more than. I mean that's natural, right?

Host: Definitely. Well, when you're more passionate about anything, you just put more energy, you put

Sarah Morse: more energy and effort into it. But I am an advocate. I don't always think the things you enjoy are the things that you're good at. Um, so sometimes it is necessary to recognize those differences. Um, so I know there's some. I am strong on the compliance, regulation, interpretation of rules side of things. M. Um. And so yeah, when I need to lean into it, I can. Yeah. But it just doesn't give me quite so much joy. Joy, yeah.

Host: Fair enough.

Sarah Morse: Okay.

Host: So then you climbed up the ranks in Nationwide.

Sarah Morse: Yeah, and then Nationwide. So it arrives a corporate world compared to. Yeah, and that's, I would say where there was some real imposter syndrome started to build. Um, because it's very corporate. There's um, a little story about what. So when it joining Nationwide itself was quite, was quite a feat because I'd done the interview and I'd had a really good interview and they gave me some great feedback and they said the thing is, you don't have a degree. Right. And it's our policy, you should have A degree.

Host: But they still interviewed you?

Sarah Morse: They still interviewed me. Um, whether it's one of those that slipped through the net and they hadn't really kind of clocked. Not entirely sure. But what they decided the route through this was to get me to sit some psychometric tests so that I could prove that my aptitude was the same level as a university student's aptitude.

Host: Wow.

Sarah Morse: Yep. I still joined them.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Ah, so, you know, what does that say? Um, so I did them, I completely aced them.

Host: Nice.

Sarah Morse: Um, which made me feel super, super chuffed. And um, yeah, it was quite a funny phone call. You know when they phone up and share the results and I say, yeah, so I think we'll, we'll be quite happy to offer you a position. Great. Too right. You should. Um. But yeah, so that was my first, I guess, introduction to. There are some biases, um, that exist in the world and. Whereas I hadn't really experienced that up till that point, probably because the type of place I'd worked, even the investment bank was an UK arm of an American investment bank, so it was more American in its approach. Um, and yeah, I just haven't experienced it. So Nationwide is corporate. It is a great place to work, but it does have its cliques and I definitely experienced that coming in. It's gender diversity improved whilst I was there, but it definitely wasn't the strongest at the start. Um, and So I joined. 28 year old female. I think I'd put a couple of people's noses out of joint already when I joined because I of the role I came into, um, I didn't have banking experience and so I hit the ground with a lot of passion, a lot of desire to kind of learn and do something good. Um, but probably, you know, for people who were, had taken a more traditional route or been at Nationwide a while, had kind of good background in financial services, it probably seemed like a strange choice.

Host: And how did that feel going from the number one in finance where you're around the board table influencing strategic big picture decisions, to FP and a manager where your role is probably an inch wide and a mile deep in comparison with huge teams around you, multi departments, you're, you're probably 10 layers away from the board at that point.

Sarah Morse: No, actually, so maybe that's worth explaining. So, um, that was a role at that level that reported into, um, it was 1, 2, 3, 4.

Host: Four layers.

Sarah Morse: Four, yeah. And then I was promoted to what they call an SE. So senior executive at nationwide within the first 12 months. So then I was My manager reported to the CEO. So what's that? Three or maybe you call that two, don't know. So m. I was either three or four and then two or three. Um, uh, how did it feel? Well, interesting. As I said I don't think I was ready for managing that breadth of people and I kind of had this baptism of fire around that travel too. So actually in a way it was a bit of a breather.

Host: Um, and did you have that humility in the moment?

Sarah Morse: Yeah, I don't. It didn't, it didn't feel like a demotion or a. And maybe that's my perspective rather than other people's perspectives. And I suppose I didn't really think too much on what other people were thinking about it.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Which um, I think is. Yeah, it's healthy if you can do it. Um, it's not and it's not true for everything. I do definitely um, have those kind of anxieties sometimes as well. But I joined as the 20078 crisis was really hitting and taking effect um, and suddenly had to become an expert in balance sheet management, interest rate risk, um, and how net interest margins at a bank move.

Host: Quite different.

Sarah Morse: Yeah, it was really different. So again I was so absorbed on all that development learning. I don't think I really had time. I loved it. I enjoyed it. That was really, really fun.

Host: Great.

Sarah Morse: So yeah, So I spent 12 years at Nationwide. Um and so once I'd kind of moved into that senior executive level um, after the first year I then did um, some kind of big chunky role around um, I did a big chunky role around uh, stress testing. So a bit technical but the um, regulator brought out some financial service stress testing requirements post the crash which were quite extreme. Um at Nationwide it resulted in a project that ran to about 250 people at its peak to get everything in place and running and then to actually run this stuff every year. So there's something called the Concurrent Stress Test. You have to run it every year and you have only three months to run it in and it's a massive, massive kind of um, task. It's now much easier because of course it's embedded. But back then it was, yeah it was big project. Yeah. So I was um, went to uh, Nationwide run quite a big annual awards event. Um, so I got um, team of the Year um for that. Awesome. Yeah that was amazing. So that was really good. And like through this whole time in Nationwide I suppose I'm, I feel like I'm, I've never been the best at thinking, uh, politically and positioning myself with people. Um, and in part I know and still now it's not a strong point. And I kind of go between this. It really rubs up badly against my values of kind of honesty and fairness and transparency. Right. Um, so which is why I don't do it. But then it doesn't really help me with smoothness of career and opportunities, I think. So nationwide, I felt that there was a lot where you, you definitely excelled if you were in the right cliques and the right groups and you're seen as, as. But there's a lot of golf talk and a lot of football talk and you know, that's. It's unfortunately. Yeah.

Host: The corporate world sometimes.

Sarah Morse: Well, and uh, maybe the male dominated corporate world, um, and say, I think, you know, it was changing, but by the time I got to the end of my 12 years, I was starting to not love the culture so much. Um, and I took the decision that um, there was a number of different redundancy programs they were running. Um, and actually at this point I was, I was part of the cost kind of management, cost management behaviors and culture kind of driving all this sort. So I knew these things were coming as well. And I was, it was, it was really interesting because right up until the last moment, the role I took on for the last two years was around changing the um, behaviors and culture, ah, across the whole nationwide with regards to cost, um, alongside quite a deep cost management program. So I knew my role only had a kind of finite period of time to it. Um, and I was quite happy to step into that because I've never been worried because I think you will find the next thing and if the business is backing you and once you're there, they'll help you find the next thing. So that was always planned. So we got towards the end and I sat down with my manager. He's like, right, today's the day we're announcing this is a redundancy, um, for the team. Da, da, da. And I was like, yeah, sure. So. And he's like, right, so when you come back in tomorrow, we'll talk about the options. We'll have a think about, you know, where else in the business you can go. I was like, yeah, came back in the next day. I said, I think I might want to take redundancy.

Host: Wow.

Sarah Morse: Uh, it was the weirdest.

Host: Was it just an impulse in the

Sarah Morse: moment impulse that night?

Host: Wow.

Sarah Morse: And sometimes I think until you're actually faced with the decision, I think you can prepare and think ahead as much as you possibly can sometimes until the actual decisions in front of you and then the feelings. I said, if, you know, they come in in a way that they don't when you're trying to pre think about it.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: And yeah, I got home that night and I was like, gosh, actually I feel a huge sense of relief that I've got, got. I've got an option to take here now. This also coincided with a lot of changes in my personal life, um, which is a whole nother strand of story. Um, and so I think there was just a moment of. Actually there's a. I need a change overall. Um, so anyway, so I said this to my boss and I think he was probably thinking, what. But he was great. He said, okay, if that's what you want. He said, there's no point in me trying to convince you. I think once somebody's mind is turned to something, you're just fighting a losing battle. Yep. So. So that happened and then Covid hit and um, we ended up in this weird situation where I. I was on. I'd gone onto some garden leave, but only for a kind of short. It was supposed to be for a very short period of time. I'd finished up my role, so I had six months notice. I kind of done three months. And then for the last three months I was pretty much going on garden leave. And then, and then Covid happened and Nationwide made this announcement which was, you know, fantastic for the business to do. Really supportive to everybody to say, we're not going to make anyone redundant. Wow. Yeah. We will commit to no one losing their jobs this year.

Host: Amazing.

Sarah Morse: It was the start of COVID and there was a lot of nervousness about people. Uh, um. So, um, my garden leave got extended.

Host: Mhm.

Sarah Morse: I got put into a program of. They, they had a number of people in this situation. They were going to kind of just parachute people into areas of the business that need support. But I was at home with four kids who were all being homeschooled.

Host: Um, gosh, that must have been hard.

Sarah Morse: Became, yeah. Apparent that, yeah, parachuting me into places was not probably that helpful. Um, yeah. So then I had this really, um, kind of amazing year, which I think I, you know, I do talk about. But I'm really conscious that people's experiences of COVID are quite varied. And there were some really challenging and horrible times for people. Um, I. My situation as I ended up at home for a year, um, on garden leave. Um, and I was so grateful to Nationwide that I was able to then support my kids and my family kind of through that. Um, so I have a blended family. So I have two children. Um, my husband has two children. Um, and we've been together for about seven years. Um, we all live together, but some of the times the children also live with their other parents. So we have this kind of really complicated. But it works for us.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Rota. Um, so Covid hit and of course it was like, oh, my goodness, can the kids move?

Host: Oh, yeah.

Sarah Morse: Um, and the answer is yes. Yes. So we had this kind of situation where the kids would be with us for a week, we'd do all the homeschooling. It was great because we could really, you know, concentrate on it. Although one was three. Two at the time. Two or three. So that was quite intense.

Host: I remember when, uh, as me, my, My daughter was that age during the pandemic, and it was the most challenging time to have a toddler knocking about in the house while you're trying to do your job.

Sarah Morse: Your job. Yeah, I can't. I can only. I. Ah, hats off. And just immense, kind of, oh, losing my words now. Um, very impressive to everybody that did that and the mental toll I think it took.

Host: I was horrendous. I remember lockdown one. Um, I was working throughout the. The pandemic and working harder than ever because you're trying to keep the. The business afloat. And at the time I was in a globally listed organization and the pressure was on. Um, and then every break time just, yeah, giving my wife a break and taking Esme off her hands. And then I've got, you know, a toddler in every break. So I didn't have a break. Full stop. Didn't have a break. And at that time, you weren't really allowed outside the house much. Um, it was. It was such a mental strain. The most. Probably one of the most stressful periods.

Sarah Morse: I think you've recovered from it.

Host: I think so, yeah. I mean, funnily enough, like lockdown two, um, when, um, Boris announced that, ah, nurseries were open.

Sarah Morse: Yeah.

Host: That's when my wife and I danced on the kitchen table. And suddenly, then I decided, right, now I've got a lunch break. Yeah, I'm going to use it for something positive. And started couch to 5K.

Sarah Morse: Right.

Host: And actually that then got me into running and fitness. Led me to the bath half. Oh, wow. Um, and now I love going to the gym and health. And I'm much more health conscious than I was before the pandemic, where I was pretty much sedentary.

Sarah Morse: Yeah.

Host: Um, so, yeah, it's had a benefit.

Sarah Morse: Yeah. That's amazing.

Host: Every cloud.

Sarah Morse: Great story. Every. Yeah, yeah yeah. I I wish I had a similar story about, about the um my um engagement with. With fitness. It's a bit of a. So definitely a love hate journey. I really. I enjoy feeling fit and I enjoy certain types of fitness so I really enjoy netball. M so I've been part of a netball team um on and off um through my whole life. Um more recently um in Chippenham um so when I'd first not long after children actually I joined a net team um in Chippenham M that actually played in league.

Host: Oh great.

Sarah Morse: Oh my goodness, that was intense. And it was um Division one in, in kind of like regionals.

Host: How long ago was this? Sorry.

Sarah Morse: So this is now going back probably 10 years.

Host: Okay.

Sarah Morse: Um so four kids. This is. No, this is just after kids. Okay. So yeah my eldest is 12.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Um and yeah so I did that um and stayed in the league for about four years.

Host: Big commitment as well, isn't it?

Sarah Morse: So it was a nice team. It was a local team and there was one training night a week and then these matches one night a week. But I tell you some of the matches they were outdoors. They are insane some of those individuals. We are playing in all weathers so I can remember like half past nine at night matches in December, sideways snow and they're like yeah, play on.

Host: What's commitment?

Sarah Morse: Amazing. Unless you've been in the sport I think you wouldn't really appreciate just the grit and determination that people put. Yeah, it's incredible.

Host: That's amazing. I used to play rugby and that just gave me memories of playing on Hard frost.

Sarah Morse: Yeah.

Host: Not a good, not a good game to play on a hard ground.

Sarah Morse: No, no, I can't imagine.

Host: No. But just get touching on your um, personal life.

Sarah Morse: Yes. That you've.

Host: I mean four kids. That's absolutely amazing to be able to juggle that with being a CFO of um, a large bank.

Sarah Morse: Yes.

Host: Whilst um, you know trying to balance your own self care and health at the same time. Like how do you, how do you juggle all of it?

Sarah Morse: I feel like this should be a really you know succinct clear answer here and I'm going to add one more lob, one more thing in there which is that my um, my husband's a, a property developer. Like a, a a sole, sole um, sole individual property developer. So he takes on individual properties and develops them himself and sells them on um. And that also bleeds a lot into, into my life. So these uh, are joint projects to the extent that the admin and all of the kind of. I guess the, the. The bit that comes around it, that doesn't involve the building. Um, I did the building during the pandemic.

Host: Oh, wow.

Sarah Morse: Yeah, that, that was. That was one other thing. There is. On all accounts, on all fronts, it's a very busy life.

Host: Um,

Sarah Morse: and I do think there's an element of. You're either you can. You're into that, like you, you want that, that's what gives you energy, or it doesn't. So I think the whole. The balancing it becomes a. Well, if. If I do this because it kind of happens, I suppose in part because I'm energized by having lots of different things going on. Um. Well, you know, one of the things that I definitely don't enjoy is sameness and steadiness and um. Routine.

Host: And we touched on that before. What, ah, was it that gives you that.

Sarah Morse: Um. And yeah, I think. I think, um. I felt like I was entering counseling session, didn't I? Because I think I went back to my childhood. Yeah. As all good counseling sessions do you. Um, where I was reflecting on my dad's military. We moved around a lot when I was younger. Um, and that was part of the reason I went to boarding school when I hit secondary school age. So I asked to go because I was. I'd got to the point where I was fed up with making. Having to make new friends every time we moved.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: So I wanted some stability. Um, but then it's like, well, hang on a minute. But now you're kind of looking for this. It's not instability. I suppose so I crave it is, but it is that I think there needs to be quite a lot going on in my life for me to. To feel that I'm achieving that. It's all purposeful that, that, um. It's that, you know, maybe it's an edge of excitement. Um. And I guess, yeah, I grew up around that. A constant change. Um. We lived in Germany for um. Almost seven years of my childhood up to when I was 12. And the exploration and the adventures you can go on just by living on the continent. Brilliant. So, um, I. Unfortunately some kind of, uh. M. Absolutely take on my dad's mantra, which is just. He's so curious about the world. My parents both retired now and I think they're kind of on 12, 13 trips away a year. Whether it's the UK or abroad or just. It just can't stay still.

Host: Sounds like my mum just can't stay still.

Sarah Morse: So, and I think, yeah, I don't know about you, but that's definitely made an impression on me and maybe it's that, that, yeah, not really.

Host: Yeah. Ah, I think for me, I mean I'm, I'm similar. Like I, I have always been the type of person that needs to be busy and even like up until recently really just, you know, if, if my wife's away and I'm home alone, I'd be calling a mate, saying, do you want to go do something? I, I, I, I was, I wasn't necessarily comfortable in my own company. Um, but recently got into more sort of mindfulness and breath work and things like that and just finding a bit of time for myself and just that, um, ability to look internally. Um, and I find that's been quite a big benefit to slow down my 110 mile an hour brain.

Sarah Morse: See, that's fascinating. So I've got two reactions going on now. One is my first thought was, yes, when you put the phone down to call in your mate, do you go, oh, why did I do that? I could probably just have enjoyed having some time by myself.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: So I tend to have that like my, uh, instant reaction is to fill the space and then I'm like, oh, actually, yeah, um, I've got lovely friends. It's not that I don't want to see them, it's just, yeah, sometimes I,

Host: Yeah, it's a rare window, isn't it, to have a bit of time.

Sarah Morse: And then, so then, and when you talk about mindfulness and breath work and like my reaction is I think I need to do it, but something just keeps stopping me from, you know, investing in it and I'm not sure what it is. So I'm going to keep reflecting on that.

Host: Well, I'll send you some videos.

Sarah Morse: Be great.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Um, and it's lovely to hear. It's, yeah, it's really interesting. Let's say I have that same reaction of fill the space.

Host: But I find that habit, uh, stacking works really well. Have you read Atomic Habits? It's a great book.

Sarah Morse: Yeah.

Host: Um, yeah, it's about if you've got a habit and part of your routine, whether it's your morning routine or whenever you stack another habit onto an existing habit. If you're brushing your teeth, after you brush your teeth, you do this.

Sarah Morse: Right. If you, as in you should stack another habit or. Yeah, okay.

Host: Because then it makes a new habit easier to adopt.

Sarah Morse: Okay.

Host: Because you're setting a rule in your mind of after this habit, I do this okay. So.

Sarah Morse: So I've tried to stack. I'm doing this. Yeah. Squats while I'm brushing my teeth.

Host: Wow. That must be a vision. I love that. Ah, that's a great example of habit stuck in.

Sarah Morse: This is how. How busy I've made my life. I don't have enough time to fit

Host: in as someone who is way too busy. Yeah.

Sarah Morse: I think that's probably a good reflection for me.

Host: Yeah. But there must be some real mental resilience and grit there for you to just power. Power through, juggle everything. Manage that CFO job.

Sarah Morse: Yeah. I. Yes. Um, and again, I don't. I feel like, um, an answer I suppose to it would be help like a. Yeah. What's the answer? Um, I think it is. It's hard. I don't feel like I get everything right. I definitely. I think I'm constantly in my head making prioritization calls, which means there's a lot of stuff I'd like to get to and I just never get to. But I've also, I've pushed it down because it's not as important as the other things. Um, so I've recently made quite a big change to my. I say big. I've always worked flexibly. I've always been lucky enough to work for employers that are very open to that and even nationwide before I had children. So years ago I was, I was kind of in and out of the office and I actually worked from Germany for a year with Nationwide and they allowed me to do a week in Germany and a week in the uk. So, um, that I. So recently what I've done, because I think I got to a point towards the end of last year, I was like, okay, I think my balance is going a bit off. I'm not. My children are 12. 12, um, 10 and 7. So they're only going to be at home needing me around for, um. Well, certainly the older two, probably another, uh, push five years. I think I'm probably being optimistic and I just don't want to get. Get 10 years down the road look back and go, I prioritize my career too much. So I had that kind of going on towards the end of last year. So I've m. Formally put in place some, um, flexible hours. And the reason I did it formally rather than informally so that my, my EA can actually say to people, no, Sarah doesn't work these hours. Obviously I'm a cfo, like say for a bank. Um, I'm going to need to be flexible and sometimes I have to accommodate those meetings in Those outside of these hours. But for the most I'm now like for example, every other Monday I finish at four. Every Tuesday I finish at four. Every Wednesday I finish at four.

Host: Oh, that's amazing.

Sarah Morse: And then. But I do longer days. I do some very early starts. I do a longer day every Thursday and then every other Friday I've got the afternoon off. So it's still full time hours. Um, so. And it's not. So I guess you could say it's a nine and a half day fortnight. But it's a bit more complicated than that because I've tried to make it so that on the days I, the kids are with us that I know want to be about and it's not to do anything particularly, I guess, substantive, but they all walk in the door at half past three from school. So if I know I can get off the phone at 4 then I can hear about the day at school. I can cook some tea while they're talking about it or reality. They go and jump on the trampoline and I stand in the kitchen cooking tea by myself.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: But then I know I can pop in and out to see them or you know, if they want me, they can run in and out. And it's made me feel like I've definitely, I've done something for them even if they don't see it or appreciate it. Every single day. I feel confident when I look back I'm gonna feel, think, you know, do you know, I, I did. I got a good balance because I don't put my career down.

Host: Yeah. And I think, I mean that's a great um, story for, for those out there that are, ah, you know, wondering, oh, could I ever reach CFO as a parent? And often people put their career on, on hold because of parenthood. Um, and, but if you can find an employer that allows you to set those clear boundaries where you can really draw a line between work and home and being there for your family, I think that's amazing. And, and also having, having the discipline to, to do it. Um, you know, there's not many CFOs out there that, that do do that and are there that much with their kids. So I'm sure you will look back and um, be grateful of setting that, those boundaries in place.

Sarah Morse: Yeah, I hope so. Like I said, it doesn't, it's not even once you've done it. I don't think it's, it doesn't make it easy every day to kind of stick to it though. It's the drift is definitely one to watch out for.

Host: Yeah, definitely something I'm quite conscious of.

Sarah Morse: Yeah.

Host: Myself as well with Esme as a juggling being a founder. But like you say that they're never going to be, you know, you're never going to get that time back. So you, uh, really aren't force yourself sometimes.

Sarah Morse: And it's hard, isn't it? Because in a way you're like, well, you're not going to get that time back. But you also, you don't get this time back for your career. So I, you know, I see people, um, whether it's women or men taking time out for family commitments. So whether it's children or caring responsibilities, it definitely has an impact. And I think any kind of, any view which suggests you can take kind of two or three years out the workplace or even take a year out entirely and then step back part time for a few years and it doesn't have an effect. It definitely does. And there's a reality of you've spent less time in the office or in doing the work, so you then do have less experience. But I think there is a, there is something around being really clear on, um, what's really important. So I also say, well, okay, so what I've missed three years of probably 80% of the time stuff that anybody else could have done. What's the 20% that I bring? That's really great. Right. Um, now show that to your employer. Show why it's really great that you're back or that you should be given the opportunity. Um, I use so what a lot at work. Um, and the point is, okay, you've just given me a 10 minute download, but so what, what's actually going to change? Um, and why is it worth making the change? Um, I think we can convince ourselves a lot of things are a good idea, but not that many of those things are the real ones that are going to make a difference. Um, and I think I urge people, especially if you're in that situation where you're trying to come back into the workplace or you're, you're fighting for a promotion against people maybe that have got longer tenure than you, well, focus not on that time and the experience, but on the. So what's going to make a difference?

Host: Is that Pareto's law?

Sarah Morse: Is it? So who knows?

Host: Okay. I mean, that's the concept of where that, that 20 of effort has 80 of your results.

Sarah Morse: Yes, well, yes. The 8020 rule. Yeah. Is that the same thing? That's the same thing, yes.

Host: That's great. Advice. Because, uh, we all, we all can be busy being busy, can't we? And it's just really thinking about where you have the most impact. We haven't really had time to sort of delve much into Triodos, um, but what an amazing organization. And um, to get to CFO of, of that, of that bank is no easy feat. Um, what I'd be really keen to understand just for the audience is

Sarah Morse: um,

Host: you're in a role which has such impact not just from a leadership standpoint and a strategy standpoint, but also from a social, environmental good. Um, a lot of people in finance are really trying to carve out a path for more purpose because typically, you know, the finance department can be quite removed from not just, um, you know, strategy and the bigger picture stuff, but sometimes, um, certainly the purpose side of things because their function is to measure profit. So how. How would you advise other people in finance to, to find their, their why and, and have a little bit more impact?

Sarah Morse: Yeah, so I think I would, I'd probably start with. I would say this kind of CFO finance is the key to everything in a business. So if you think you've not got the accountability or the responsibility or the ability to influence, then you're wrong, I think. Um, or I'm in the wrong job maybe. Um, you say a core part of a finance team is to measure the money. Um, and. But what you get access to in all that data is insight. So if you can start to make the connection between um, understanding how businesses that are pushing more on environmental, social, um, cultural, um, factors kind of make that connection to how actually that's going to be a positive for the business. It's going to bring in whether it brings in income directly or, or indirectly through reputational impact, through kind of the broadening your engagement into, into um, certain sectors. Um, it really does open the door to uh, potential future income flow I suppose, and the finance team should be well placed to see that and bring those ideas forward. It might not be in your job role, it might not be a requirement, nobody could be even asking you, but there's nothing to stop you saying it or pushing it forward as an idea. The other side to finance, and this is very kind of true, I suppose in a banking environment, but I think it does play across to a number of different industries is, um, there's a lot of risks coming around climate change. Our businesses are going to face challenges that we're not even. We haven't thought of, so we haven't prepared for them. Um, again, finance is well placed to see how those challenges or what, try and try and unearth what those challenges might be, what parts of the business model they might affect. And again, get that information in front of the, whether it's a board, senior management team, whoever it is, early. Um, let me give an example. So, um, if you follow through, I mean this is a very big example, like a, hopefully an obvious one. But, um, flooding, UK flood risk is definitely on the rise. On the rise?

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: Um, it's very situational, there's a lot of geographical elements to it, but overall we're getting warmer and wetter as a country. That's what the kind of climate change trajectory is for the uk. So for a long time, um, I say for a long time, for probably past decade, banks and insurance markets have been required to start looking into this and to understand the effects that will have on their business models in the future. So the way I see this play out is that, that the banks in the first instance are, uh, mostly protected because whilst you might have a mortgage and you've put your house up, your house is your collateral on your mortgage. So if something goes wrong, they're going to repossess your house and recover the money that way. Or if your house floods, um. Is the mortgage company got a problem? Not really. The insurer does.

Host: Yeah.

Sarah Morse: So the insurance market takes this huge upfront kind of hit. But is that going to stick for the next decade, Two decades? Is the insurance market going to survive? If it's got to take the costs of all these, let's just stick with flooding. But there's other climate, um, kind of changes coming too. Well, no. So the insurance market is probably going to have to adapt and change and you'll see some, probably policy exclusions and the lights coming in. Right, so now who's got the problem?

Host: The people?

Sarah Morse: Does the people, does your bank have a problem? What if your house, let's say it's a business, uh, it floods to the extent that you can't operate for 12 months. Uh, if the insurance is somehow now taken themselves out of the equation, then yes, you as an individual are exposed, but your bank's now exposed as well.

Host: Um,

Sarah Morse: so from a banking perspective, you know, those are kind of the kind of things we're having to think about and try and make a view of all the different routes that could open up in the markets in the future. So even if you're not in banking or financial services, I'd say, well, think about your business. What's your business model? How much of those business Model income streams are at risk of being affected if climate change, um, of the physical risks of climate change, but also the transition risk. So we're going to transition to a greener economy. We're moving away from carbon. Well, how much of your business model is reliant on carbon income from something connected to carbon m. Are you prepared for this transition? Um, and it's that where we started, um, talking about long term and short term, asking the government to think about the climate nature Bill. Yes, it's a long term problem. We are seeing the effects of it today but the biggest effects are yet to come. But if we don't start making some plans now and really thinking about all the different alternative futures um, and ways to manage that risk, then we'll be too late. So back to your point. What can finance individuals do? Think broader, think bigger. Think about some of these kind of maybe concepts that might not be on the table in, in your finance, um, uh, meetings today and think about how you might bring them in.

Host: Love.

Sarah Morse: It could just be interesting if nothing else.

Host: Yeah, definitely. And finally, what is the one piece of advice you would give your younger self?

Sarah Morse: Oh gosh, I feel like you should pre warn me of that. Uh, to listen more to other people. Okay. It's definitely one of my constant, um, and probably the, the kind of, I wouldn't say the biggest challenge but one that probably has the most negative effect. If I look back through my career, um, I can with the drive and the, I mean ambition more the drive and just the energy and enthusiasm for things. Um, I always have a very high kind of pace and high drive to deliver. Um, it is that bringing everybody on the journey with you. Um, and I find it quite hard sometimes to walk to the slowest pace. Um, but so it's finding a way to do, to kind of. Okay, so if I can't walk at the slowest pace, what can I do to make those individuals feel more comfortable or um, you know, have I really taken everybody's point of view into account? Um, I'm very good at collaborating when the views are within the boundary of what I think the view and then this comes up. So I think I've got, I hope I've got a lot better at it um, as I've gone through my career. But I certainly think it would have been good to hear in my early days.

Host: Yeah, love that. Well Sarah, that's been an amazing story. Thank you so much for joining us and being so honest. Loads of um, vulnerability in there which I think will relate with a lot of people. So thank you for sharing your story and hopefully inspiring others.

Sarah Morse: Thank you. Thanks for teasing it out and hopefully I didn't say anything too much that I regret later.

Host: That is great. Thank you. Sarah thank you. Leo, thanks for listening to the Conscious Finance podcast. Um, it's really appreciated and if you can help us increase our impact and inspire others, um, it'd be much appreciated. All we ask is just subscribe to the podcast. Um, give us a like or drop us a comment. Um, it really does does help get the word out there and expand our reach and hopefully inspire others to drive their impact further. Thank you.