Jayne Phan - Breaking Expectations - The Conscious Finance Podcast

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: So welcome to the latest episode of the Conscious Finance podcast. I'm really, really pleased to be joined today by Jane Fan. Welcome, Jane.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: So Jane is finance director for Soar Days, um, which is a B corp and employee owned company.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: And Jane's background, um, was starting out in life in the big four, is that right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, Ernst and Young.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And then shot up through the ranks, computer share, bart ingredients, mighty, um, big corporate organizations, and then found Sordaz.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Is that right?

Speaker A: Yes, that is correct. I don't know if shot off through the ranks is the right expression, but yes, I, Yeah. So I started off in Ernst Young and um, was there for like seven years. So I was there four years in Bristol and then three years in Canada. So quite a long time with this. Yeah. With whereabouts in Canada? Uh, Ottawa.

Speaker B: Uh, amazing.

Speaker A: Yeah, so that was like, that was a really awesome experience. Um, but yeah, it's just kind of that accountancy path. Very sort of traditional path.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, first of all, thank you for coming on because I know.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: It's taking a lot of bravery to come here and a lot of persuasion on my part. Um, I've been trying to, for the listeners. I've been trying to get Jane on since we started.

Speaker A: Really.

Speaker B: Um, and actually you inspired quite a lot of, uh, my thought process around Conscious Finance.

Speaker A: That's awesome.

Speaker B: In general, um, I think our conversations early on about how you looked at, um, how finance traditionally isn't necessarily a business, a division or team that has a direct attachment to purpose as a function, it can naturally just focus on profit, um, and how you've, your story of how you found that and how you flourished as a result of that finding purpose is, um, really inspiring. And I think, you know, there's a lot of people here that will benefit from your story. So thank you, thank you for having me. But it's your first podcast, right?

Speaker A: It is, yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're a natural. So I guess, yeah, it'd be good to sort of dig into that initially really in terms of your journey. Um, you know, you started off with, um, Big Four. A lot of people, you know, start there and move on into the big, big corporates. Um, be good to sort of learn a bit about your journey to lead what led you towards sore days now?

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. So, um, yeah, I went into the big Four from university or I went to university, took a year out and then joined the big four. And I think, like, I think if I'm honest and I think back, I didn't give a great deal of thought to where I wanted to work, apart from the fact that probably my dad had just steered me towards like, get a good salary.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Work with a reputable company with a good name.

Speaker B: Did you have an affinity to numbers?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I guess. Yeah, I think, I think I hadn't. Again, I was, I didn't really give it a lot of thought back then.

Speaker B: What did you study in unique?

Speaker A: I did physics at uni. Yeah. And I knew I wasn't going to do that. Yeah, there's logic, um, in it and I wasn't going to go be a sort of physics researcher or anything. So, um, one of my friends had actually joined PwC and she said, oh, it's a great job and you should go for it. And there's a round of, um, interviews and they pay really well and all this stuff. And um, I was like, okay, sure. And I sort of got into ey and, and like I said, it was, you know, it was reputable, had a good reputation and it had a good salary. And other than that I didn't give much thought at all to why I should join a company or not. Um, and I think also when I think back to sort of the earlier parts of my career, um, I think I subconsciously thought that my job was to assimilate m to a company. So like, you join, you work out how to be what they want you to be and you do that and then you're successful.

Speaker B: Uh, what do you think gave you that impression?

Speaker A: I don't know. I mean, I think my dad is, um, you know, obviously different generation, really hard working and um, maybe they didn't have the luxury necessarily of sort of choosing a company that had purpose and um, uh, you know, that kind of purpose and values. They just were thankful to have a job.

Speaker B: What did your folks do?

Speaker A: My dad was an accountant. Uh, and he was also a refugee. And so that probably made a difference, obviously. Uh, Vietnam. Um, yeah. And, well, they were both my, both my parents. So, um, I guess, you know, when he got to the UK and he re studied his accountancy so he could do it in the uk, he was just like, you're lucky to get in a big company who will look after you, give you a good salary, work as hard as you can, that kind of thing. And I think not. He never, we never explicitly talked about it, but I think that was probably on my mind of like, that's what you need to do. And so. And I really enjoyed ey to be fair, it was a really, really good company. And um, it was full of young people, lots of like minded people. We were all sort of quite um, uh, driven I guess and we all worked really hard and we all wanted to get our qualifications. Um, so it was a really good experience. But then after I left, uh, after I was in Canada and I decided to come back to the uk, I thought oh, okay. I don't think I want to carry on in practice. I've done seven years. Um, I'd really like to work for a single company and sort of, you know, see all the value you can bring for a single company and you kind of get more connected I guess.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so I thought I really want to try industry and that's what led me to some of the, the other roles that I had. And then if I'm honest, I guess I bounced around a little bit between sort of different companies. I've like two PLCs and then a small private equity backed company. Um, and I don't think I, I don't think I connected with them that well. Um, or something was missing, um, for me and I didn't know what it was because again it was like, oh, I'm working for reputable companies and I'm trying to assimilate, um, but it hasn't really for something, something's missing. Um, and then as I mentioned I. Probably the big turning point was I had a baby. And um, on having a baby I left one company and joined another company and came back to a new company. And um, I kind of experienced like a very mild sort of um, crisis or mental breakdown, I don't know what you call it. But um, I was kind of getting symptoms that I could tell that I wasn't really quite right and um, they would. So I was having sort of intrusive thoughts about like my baby dying or me dying. And then I was having, I had some anxiety, like panic attacks which I'd never had before. A bit of anxiety I guess. Um, and then probably the weirdest feeling was that I was starting to feel like a bit of an alien. So I would be sitting amongst my colleagues and get a really strong feeling that like I was pretending to be human or pretending to fit in and then, but also feeling very much like it wasn't really working and I didn't really know why. Um, and so all these symptoms altogether I kind of realized that obviously I needed something, some help, um, and went and found myself a therapist and um, worked with her and sort of that was like, yeah, a massive turning point. She just helped me kind of realize that I think I had spent my life assimilating and hadn't really given a great deal of thought to what I wanted, what I felt, what I thought and how to be authentic to that. Um, and that really I was just bouncing from job to job trying to be what they wanted me to be. And, um, I think what really sort of brought it, um, to the fore was like, being a mother was probably the most authentic thing I'd ever experienced. And so being at home with your baby and then the contrast of sort of going into work and sort of.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Pretending to be something you're possibly not. Um, I think that contrast was what sort of made it all sort of come to the fore and then sort of resulted in this kind of mild mental m breakdown thing. So I worked with her for like a year and as part of that I ended up quitting, um, the job. And, um, I actually sort of thought that I might want to quit finance completely.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Because I. Because having had sort of a number of, um, experiences where I didn't really sort of connect with the company, um, I thought, well, maybe, maybe finance and the finance culture is just not for me. Um, so I became a contractor. And in that time I was supposed to have a think about, like, oh, what else could I do with my life? You know, what else could be, um, more fulfilling? And, um, I got contacted about this job in Sordaz and I was a little bit sort of dismissive and sort of said, oh, you know, well, that's not what I'm looking for. I'm kind of. I thought about changing. You know, I was kind of thinking I was going to change my life. But the recruiter was very persistent, thankfully. And, um, I went to meet these, the people in Sorday. So, um, there was like Toby Sorday and this sort of. He was the outgoing MD and then the incoming MD and, And the people on the board all interviewed me. And I think partly because I had nothing to lose, I was as honest as I've ever been in an interview. Um, and m. I really advocate that now, like, honesty in interviews. But, um, I kind of said, you know, here's where I worked and they didn't really work for me. And so if this is going to be the same, I have to be honest, like, ah, I'd leave it. Yeah, fair enough. But then also, obviously, you know, this is what I can do, this is what I know I can do, this is what I know I'm good at. Um, and then also I think it was a full Time job actually and I sort of because I had nothing to lose I kind of went in and said I'm going to do this for you part time and that's the only way I do it. Um, but I'll do it as good as a full time person. And again thankfully because they're quite sort of open minded people they were like yeah sure maybe she can. And um, I think like all of those things together made me realize that the company was quite like different in their thinking. Progressive. Um, yeah they probably didn't. I mean they don't buy into a lot of the corporate you know, norms I guess. Um and so yeah I, I got the job offer and um, Toby Sorde sent me a lovely email because I was still sort of umming and arring. He sent me a really heartfelt email um, about why I should join and why like the company would be so, so different and so um, such a good thing for me and like sort of he used the word like nourishing like it's a nourishing place to work and that's what we try and do. And I was like yeah okay I'll give it a go. You know what's the last ditch attempt maybe to sort of make um the finance thing work. And then I joined and that was like almost seven years ago and it's been amazing. Um and yeah so it's employee owned, it's a B Corp But I think all of that existed even before like well sorry all the values existed um before it became any of those things in the founder Alistair Sorde. Um but it's becoming then employee owned and B Corp has only sort of helped to you know um, improve on the culture that was already there. So now, yeah now I'm just super, super passionate about purpose led businesses um particularly employee owned businesses. Um B Corp's brilliant organization but I um think working for employee owned company as well has sort of just completely turned on my head. On my head, on its head. Lots of things I thought um, I knew about finance. Um and it just makes you look at everything a different way. So um, yeah it's been brilliant experience.

Speaker B: Amazing. Wow, what a story. And did you climb what level did you enter so days and now you're FD I'm guessing.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I was financial controller when I joined. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: No it's inspiring. I think it resonates a lot with me actually. Um and you know not many, not many people know but I also had a mental crisis. Yeah After I went traveling um, Southeast Asia um and I don't know if it's lack of routine or the malaria tablets or just sleep deprivation.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but yeah, I, I lost myself.

Speaker A: Really. Yeah.

Speaker B: This is, this is after quite a successful career in marketing. Okay. Um, and just taking that, taking that time out to travel with my now wife.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, yeah. And I just completely lost um, my sense of self, my confidence. Um, and yeah, and, and I think coming back from that touchwood, this was, you know what, just before I got into recruitment. So 12, 13 years ago. Nothing's happened since. So uh, you know, all good since then. But I think that that story of hitting rock bottom.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then how to get out of that is quite inspiring I think for anyone. Whether it's postnatal depression or um, general mental health, anxiety, self limiting beliefs, um, lack of confidence. Um, so what was it for you, do you think that got you out of that rut?

Speaker A: Um, yeah. So I worked with a therapist for like a year and a bit and then I actually worked with her again recently. Um, and she was just amazing. She just basically sort of helped me think about why I do the things I do or sort of what makes me me. And then also I think she sort of made me realize that I think oftentimes I didn't ignored what I was thinking and ignored what I was feeling and always tried to work out what other people were thinking and feeling and then sort of make them happy or, or um, like I said, assimilate or whatever it was. Um, so. And yeah, so it was just kind of working with her on that principle. And it's the idea of being authentic, isn't it? And um, many other things as well. It goes, it sort of runs into every aspect of my life, that kind of thing. Um, and um, yeah, it's the best thing that ever happened to me really because I managed to work out who I was and managed to bring that into my work life. And then I think because I had been living possibly like a life where I was one person to one person, one person to my daughter, one person to the people at work, one person to those friends, one person to my partner, maybe it was all like almost like having multiple personalities and I didn't actually know what my own personality was and what I thought and felt and how to bring that um, out. Um, so we did loads of work on, on that. Um, and yeah, sorry, my train of thought, but we did, we did a lot of work on that and I think it's just, I've just been trying to practice that ever since she introduced me to the concept. And I think you have to practice. I'm not like, I'm not perfect at it at all. And in. Under sort of pressured self circumstances, I will revert to like that, you know, personality that. I don't know, like playing a character. Yeah. It's not quite me or, or like, I don't know if you ever sort of like, why did I say that? That's like, that's not what I was thinking or feeling. Why did I do that? But, um, I've been trying to practice it and the more I practice it, the more I feel like fulfilled in my life, the more success I have in the company. Um, and you know, to the credit of the company and every single step of the way they've encouraged me to be myself. And I think other companies don't necessarily do that always. I think other companies can be like, why are you so, you know, why are you so loud? Why are you so this? Why can't you be more this? Um, and, and yeah, I think the company that I'm with now allowing me to be myself and sort of nurturing and, and when I, when they saw me being authentic, you know, they would, um, I guess they would comment on it and they would encourage me and they say, that was awesome what you said there. And, you know, it was really needed. Um, helped me to sort of nurture that in myself. And yeah, I always like, it's sort of really related. There's a saying, isn't there like a Gandhi saying that says happiness is like aligning your thoughts, feelings and actions. Uh, and like, that couldn't be more true for me, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Is doing being a leader or being a finance professional or being whatever, but doing it on my terms, um, in my way and with my personality. Not what an FD is supposed to look like or whatever, you know, whatever someone's preconceptions are.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, um, have you got any sort of tips for listeners maybe going through similar challenges, trying to find their real true self and, um, ingrain those sort of habits of being that way?

Speaker A: Oh, gosh. I mean, it's not easy. Like, it's really not easy. And like I said, I had a professional helping me work out what I was thinking. Um, and she would, I mean, she would literally say, describe a situation to me and I would say, oh, yeah, I was sitting at a table with Leo and he was really comfortable and happy. And she was like, why are you describing me, that situation from someone else's point of view? Um, so she. It was kind Of a practice that she kind of had to keep prompting me and, and making me think about how I describe things, think about things and working out how to sort of um, talk about things from my perspective.

Speaker B: Raising your own self awareness.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is. Yeah, I guess it is. Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, she sounds like an awesome therapist, so if anybody is, um, yeah. In need, then I'm sure you'd.

Speaker A: Core psychotherapy.

Speaker B: Core psychotherapy.

Speaker A: Core psychotherapy.

Speaker B: There we go.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Core three.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah. Unfortunately we don't offer therapy services, but yeah, um, no, that's great recommendation and uh, and I guess moving on to um, your shift because, um, that's quite a major fork in the road that you found yourself in where you almost walked away.

Speaker A: I did, yeah.

Speaker B: A profession that you've dedicated, you know, many years to, gone through the big four and everything like that. It's a pretty, pretty major thing. So how would you say from a finance perspective, from the role itself, um, what would you say was your experience then to what it is now in more of a purpose driven business?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, okay, so, yeah, so that's the interesting thing. Like I enjoyed like the nitty gritty. I enjoyed like this problem solving. I enjoyed numbers. I enjoyed sort of the logical challenge of that. Um, but what I didn't enjoy was some of the culture of it, I think. And um, I had, you know, as an example, I had worked with people, um, in my career who thought it was our job as finance professionals to make it look like the company was doing a good job.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: And I was like, that can't be right, can it? Because if we're not doing a good job, why, why, why is it my job to try and make it look like we're doing a job through the accounts? Like it was, that was quite weird. Um, there was like that culture of like presenteeism, like working till, you know, God knows what time, 8 o' clock in the evening. Um, like another job I worked at, I was sort of, sort of earnestly told, like, this is an amazing place to work. You can go home, put your children to sleep and then you can log on afterwards. And I was like, oh, it sounds amazing. But they were genuinely grateful that that was what their job allowed them to do. Um, and then, yeah, just kind of, I think in some, some places there was kind of, um, atmosphere of sort of intimidation I guess. Like, you know, if you got something wrong it would be, it was fine for someone to shout at you, um, or treat you, sort of treat you like a child or sort of less than, certainly Less than their equal. Um, so, yeah, I mean, I can name countless other things. Um, I guess it was the obsession with profit or the obsession with revenue or growth. Revenue growth. Like I get, you know, it comes from sometimes the structure of a company, but it's not healthy. And that's partly where I guess the, the culture of, oh, let's make it look like this company is doing well can come from. Um, which is obviously one of sort of the majority causes of fraud in companies. So all of this kind of a lot of the culture sat really weirdly with me. Um, it wasn't everywhere, don't get me wrong. But, um, you know, I kind of got snippets and I was just like, I can do the work, I know how to do accounting, but I don't know if I can deal with sort of the politics that sit around it as well. Um, I can't remember what your first question was.

Speaker B: So then it's, I guess that's a really good, um, description of, you know, what, it's, what it, it was like before sore days and then sort of when you then found that purpose driven business when, when finance is working in a way that really sings to you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like what does, how does that work? What does that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, and, and you know, luckily enough, I guess I worked from the beginning with people who shared my point of view and I was really open with them and I was like, this is what I think I should be doing. I think I should be reporting to you honestly how the business is doing honestly and consistently. Um, you know, is that okay with you? And they were like, yeah, of course. Um, and then, um, I think when I joined, when I came in as well, the sort of, I guess the relationship between finance and the rest of the departments wasn't good, which is very common I find in some companies where it's really combative between finance and other teams. And finance has this almost like weird sort of, I don't know, like. Well, yeah, or like a sort of matronly relationship with the rest of the business. Um, so I sort of worked to sort of get rid of that and sort of get the businesses trust that we're like there to, uh, we're a service function, we serve them, you know, they're our clients. Um, and then we also have this other sort of aspect which is guiding and also challenging. So you know, we're not like, yes people, um, but we need to support the business and then we need to tell them, you know, if something's going awry we need to tell the truth when that's not working. Um, and we need to, yeah. Provide sort of, uh, we have that obviously knowledge to sort of um, give a little bit more structure. Um, so that I worked on that as well. I think we worked on like the relationship with, of people two profit, revenue and sort of finance and budget and everything.

Speaker B: Yeah. How do you do that? Because I think that uh, what you said before is, you know, finance can naturally just become revenue or profit.

Speaker A: Yeah. Or margin or whatever.

Speaker B: Uh, and that's common in most businesses. How do you go beyond that and make it more than that?

Speaker A: Well, so I have a weird theory about this if you bear with me. So you know how some like, you know how every individual that you know will have a different relationship with money.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And some people's relationship with money is very weird and very probably wrong. Right. So some people will be like obsessed with money for the sake of money. Like I just want to accumulate it. Some people will be like. Some people's full self worth just comes from their money. Some people like are really reckless with money, um, and you know, get into debt all the time. Some people live hand to mouth, that kind of thing. So I kind of see it as like in, in a business you're going to have some kind of relationship of the business to money, to the profit, to the revenue, um, and to the budgets as well. And um, the healthiest way I think to look at um, money that a company makes and the profit it makes is that it's. It, the money is something that serves you to sort of fulfill your purpose more. It's like you should never get in a situation where like all the employees feel like slaves to revenue or slaves to the profit line. Um, which I think I've seen companies where that is the case. Like you know, like profit is king. Profit is um, a deity that everybody worships and like, you know, everything has to be done in order to get there on. Um, I think what we've tried to instill in the sore days is that if we make a profit it shows that we're running a good business. Um, it is our servant. And in that when we make a profit we can pay you more and we can do more of what we want to do. So and you know there's lots of sort of small things that happen around the business. I think we've worked on like. So um, a really good example is that some companies think that your budget is like, like a prison. But you know, like, God forbid you move away from the Budget, Um, but you know, for us it's like, it's a guide basically. We have aspirations, we might have an idea of what's happening in the market. Um, and that's why we set the budget. And then we would. What we found, what I found was that people would say, oh God, you can't do that. It's not in the budget. And I'd be like, no, no, hang on, maybe you can. Don't think of it like, um, I, uh, guess something to trap you, something to help you. So if you've got a good reason to go over the budget, tell us that reason, justify it, and maybe we'll just do it. And then what, what do you do? You explain the difference between the budget and the actuals. That's all that needs to be done. And I can't tell you how deep that that sort of, um, uh, misconception runs. I think. Um, or maybe it's not misconception in some companies sometimes you get in a lot of trouble if you know, you don't stick to the budget. But I guess it's similar with targets, revenue and things like that. Like obviously we have aspirations, but there's no whip being cracked in order to meet those targets because there's often extremely legitimate reasons why you can't meet that target. If the market looks completely different now from when you set the budget, it's completely unrealistic for you to expect your employees to, you know, know, somehow bridge the gap. Um, but obviously there are times when it does indicate that maybe, you know, you're not doing. The employees are not sort of doing things in the way that you wanted it, or they're not focused. But um, all of that kind of for me makes up, um, sort of a different way of looking at profit and relationship that the employees, company can have with profit.

Speaker B: There seems to be a much more human sort of holistic way of looking at it. And it reminds me of a quote actually from um, Simon Sinek is one of my favorites. And this quote, I loved it so much I put it on my website. And um, it's uh, profit is our ah, oxygen. But it's not the reason we're alive. Um, and I think that's, that's where a lot of businesses go wrong. They just, they just see profit as the only thing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it takes them away from their mission or their reason for existing as a business completely. But it's about also, and I'm going through this at the moment is striking that right balance between profit and purpose. Um, what's the saying. It's sort of like uh, without margin there is no mission or there is no purpose without profit. So how do you balance the two?

Speaker A: Well I think like, so yeah, I think you have to make profit because otherwise you don't have a viable business model. Like you can, you know, your purpose can be, I don't know, um, just to help people. But if you can't generate the money to help people then obviously it's not, it's not sort of an ecosystem that's going to work.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So again it, profit, you use it in that sense to, to tell you. And there's lots of sort of um, analysis you can do to tell you if you're running a viable business. Um, but it shouldn't be like you couldn't, shouldn't myopically look at it as the target. It's the measure. For me, profit is the measure of how viable your business is, how well it's being run, how efficient you are, all of that stuff. Um, but it's not the target. The target is to sort of propagate um, your purpose, isn't it? Um, yeah. So I think, I think if you think of it in that way you can get the right balance.

Speaker B: M and do you, do you do anything further when it comes to the concept of the triple bottom line, for example, where measuring your impact on people, planet and profit?

Speaker A: Um, so yeah, as part of the, as part of B Corp we do have like an impact report and um, we're monitoring like carbon sort of emissions and things like that and we've set a target for ourselves um and people wise we do our ah, we do sort of employee uh, net promoter score. Um, so yeah, all of that is really, really important to us. And yeah, so I guess you know, when you would say um, profit is kind of a measure of how well you run your business. I guess you know, in my mind as well, you know, you've got, if you, if you become myopic on the, on, on the profit, you can often do things that are detrimental to actual other parts of the business. So detrimental to employees is a very common one. Yeah, detrimental to your suppliers is also a very common one. Um, sometimes detrimental to your customers. Although that obviously comes back to haunt you much quicker. Um, so yeah, you know, if our purpose is to sort of run like I said, a sort of balanced ecosystem where your employees are happy and your like suppliers are happy and your customers are happy and your shareholders are happy, that's kind of like for me the perfect balance. M um, I Don't know if I answered.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I think it's. I mean it aligns, it aligns with the whole concept of conscious capitalism. And the B corp movement is really similar in that, you know, it's that interdependency of all of your stakeholders, not just your shareholders and your, your customers, your suppliers, your community, uh, the environment, your team, your employees. Um, yeah, I think looking at it holistically like that just makes it a lot more genuine, I think, and purpose driven. And did you find that sort of measuring the impact of all of those things tend to fall with finance?

Speaker A: No, not all of it. So, no. Um, we've kind of. So we've got a impact and sustainability manager and um, she does a great deal of this stuff on carbon footprint, but we sort of help by gathering information about sort of our mileage and things like that. Um, but yeah, we're lucky in that she kind of takes a lot of that on. I think it can naturally fall into finance depending on sort of, sort of, um, you know, resourcing and stuff like that. Um, but then the EMPS survey is just kind of part of a sort of, um, uh, HR function. So we as leadership, we always look at the results of that together. M. Yeah. So I was going to go back actually and say that on the. What I was talking about this sort of, um, the balance of all these sort of different parts of your business, the employee ownership makes that really interesting because your shareholders and your employees are the same people. Um, and um, I think what can happen doesn't always happen, but what can happen is your shareholders. Because if they're completely out of the business and they're remote, and if they're really only in it for making money, then they're putting this pressure on to make, you know, profit and then it sort of automatically makes the leadership in the business obsessed with that money, um, part of it, the profit part of it. And then, you know, that's when things like your treatment of your employees can really, um, be degraded or, you know, your treatment of your suppliers or whatever. Um, so when you combine your shareholders with your employees, it adds this whole different, um, aspect to how you think about your business. And it's very natural, actually. I find like, it's a really natural thing to, to think like, okay, as, as owners, are they happy with this decision? Are they happy with the direction now, as employees, are they happy with, with that decision and direction? Because, um, the, the wants and needs of a shareholder and employee can sort of be mutually beneficial if in that. In in the employee ownership model I find.

Speaker B: Ah, yeah, it must really change the mindset. Um, and I get on that. I was quite keen to dig into employee ownership in general because we haven't had a employee owned business on the podcast yet. And I think that's a big part of um, the purpose driven community, um, in business in general. But for those haven't heard of it before, what, what is it and how do businesses become one?

Speaker A: Yes, so it's um, I guess it's like an alternative form of ownership. I don't guess it is an alternative form of ownership and it's become really popular um, over sort of the last ten years or so. Um, so rather than if you had an owner manage, owner owned business, owner managed business like yours I guess, and at some point you wanted to exit or, but also you probably want to leave the business um, so that it continues even though you're not there, um, traditionally you would sort of look for another buyer. You know, that was kind of a normal way to do it. So you look for someone to purchase the business as a whole. Um, but the employee ownership model allows you to sell the company to the company effectively. So you set up a trust and the trust buys the company. And the trust is uh, the beneficiaries of a trust of the employees, um, which means the employees basically own the company. Um, and it's a really, really interesting mechanism um, because it kind of, it, what's the word, it keeps sort of the legacy of the founder sort of in the company. Um, so if you, if you were to sell to Robert Half, let's say that you know, in 10 years time or 20 years time, you thought Core Free is going really well, I'm going to sell it to Robert Half, Robert Half might buy it and you know, they might tell you we're going to keep it exactly as it is. But ultimately they have to appease their shareholders. They might have to change quite a lot about it. They might move all to London so everyone in Bristol loses their job or they might, you know, just sort of chip away at some of the things that they think are less profitable. Whereas if you sell it to employees and you've got this beneficiary, then I think you've got a much greater chance of um, maintaining sort of the legacy that you um, sort of created in the company.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, no, that's really good, um, analogy and I think with um, the actual sale process, when you said the sort of company effectively buys it, is that, is that like um, similar to an MBO the trust.

Speaker A: Well, so this is. There is a funny thing about it in that, um, in most transactions you're gonna have a buyer and a seller, right? And the buyer and the seller sort of, um, one's gonna want the highest price and one's gonna want the lowest price. Um, whereas in an employee ownership transaction, you've only got a seller, and then you're gonna get some professionals to sort of help you value the company. And you don't have that sort of, sort of, um, tug of like two people arguing over what the actual price is. So you do have to be really careful. But, um, like, there's lots of companies who are kind of very well versed in it now and they sort of take a look at. They should be taking a look at sort of obviously, um, the past performance, but then the cash flow and sort of also the future aspirations of the company. So the money that they need for investment. And then they should be able to come up with a price. Um, and typically, much like a transaction, you'll get an amount up front, um, and then they'll have a deferral period for the remaining portion. Um, I've not seen one yet that's contingent on, um, performance. But I've seen most of them have like a consideration and then some of it's deferred over like five years. So to give the company the opportunities to sort of pay out a large sum, but then probably recover their cash flow, protect their cash flow, protect their cash and sort of pay out sort of more slowly. But, yeah, it's a really, like, It's a really, really clever mechanism, I think. Yeah, it's done right.

Speaker B: It's something I'm really interested in. And for Core three, we're looking at, uh, looking at employee ownership in five years time, ideally.

Speaker A: Oh, wow, that's soon. Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, yeah. Um, but, you know, we might not get there in five years and then the team might decide, you know, we need to wait a bit longer. But, uh, I think, um, that's the goal and I think for me, I'm quite. And the reason why I'm, uh, interested in that is because of how it really aligns with Purpose and B Corp and everything else. I think it really solidifies the mindset culturally into, um, into the team. So, ah, have you found that to be true, would you say?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I mean, it's. I think you have to do quite a lot of work to help employees think as owners and as employees, because your default is always as employee, most people. Anyway, um, now, you know Obviously now you've got experience of thinking as an owner.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But before you probably wouldn't, before you ran a business you probably wouldn't have had experience of thinking like an owner quite the same way. So I think there is work to be, there's always like a lot of work to make sure that they get what it means. Um, but I think, and you have to, I think you have to keep telling them and you have to keep sort of reminding them and their employee voice is always important, I think, so they shouldn't lose it. But I think alongside it, ideally you have an owner voice as well. And then for every sort of decision, every sort of action, ideally you'd be thinking, what does the employee in me think about this? What does the owner in me think about this? Um, which will help sort of guide the company. And you know, in our company we certainly sort of encourage people to speak up about their thoughts about like the direction of the company and sort of um, all the strategic plans. Because effectively the idea is that even though you're working for this company as an owner, you have some control over your destiny, which is quite exciting I think. Um, and then not something, you know, like a lot of companies where you're just employee, you get on a conveyor belt and the conveyor belt takes you somewhere and then hopefully you retire with a good pension. In an employee owned company, I feel like, you know, every single employee, um, their, you know, their personality, their opinions, their values should all form a part of that company and direct where it goes. So that's also, yeah, another amazing thing I think about, about sort of the model and how it, it can work.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think a lot of organizations, even if they aren't um, employee owned, really struggle with um, ways to find their employees. Feel like they have a genuine voice.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They're creating that sort of truly inclusive culture where there's psychological safety and everybody feels like they belong. There are mechanisms for feedback and people and that feedback is actually heard. Um, so are there any tips, uh, from having been in an EO business and I know you're a trustee now of another one.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: M. So are there any tips of sort of mechanisms or weekly monthly things that you do to engage your shareholders or team?

Speaker A: Um, I mean there's some sort of big things that we do. Like we have an employee ownership, ownership council and that's like people from around the business, um, who are um, elected in and volunteer and then they're elected in. And that's kind of had quite a few um, people go through it. And so they've all had that experience of kind of being part of the council and sort of being involved in these um, sometimes quite interesting debates about the company. Um, I joke that I think it should be like conscripted that you have to go through the employee ownership council in order to work in the company because it's just such a good experience and you really get to see like different aspects. Um, so that's probably like one of the biggest things that we do.

Speaker B: And how often does that happen?

Speaker A: So we meet monthly, I'm on the council as well.

Speaker B: Um, and how are people selected?

Speaker A: So every time someone comes off we have seven people. And every time someone comes off we just go out to the business, say, does anyone else interested in joining? Um, and the tenure is like three years, so I'm about to finish. But then as part of that council there's also employee director and the employee director is one of the council who then puts himself forward to be an employee director. And they actually join the board of directors and they join board meetings. Um, and so they sit there as that voice. Um, and in everything we talk about on the board, it's their job to represent the employees and what they think the employees views are. And that person will also sort of spend time talking to the business and getting a good sense of like, you know what, what the employees personalities, but also sort of their hopes, fears, values, all of that stuff. Um, and that's worked really well. I've sort of, since I've been on board, we've had three different employee directors and it's been a brilliant experience, I think for them and for uh, the board. Like the board would be a completely different sort of entity without that role.

Speaker B: That's a great mechanism because I think a lot of boards struggle because they're so disconnected from the team.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: That there's too many layers and it's not necessarily their fault. Always.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they might just occasionally hear what they say from a survey or what have you. But that sort of council where you know, the having monthly meaningful conversations come from the people that matter most and then to have someone as a head of that council sit in the board meetings, that's quite unique. And there's no reason why a business that's not eo.

Speaker A: No, exactly, completely. And I mean the good thing is it works the other way as well because it dispels some of the sort of myths that people have about boards because then the employee, um, director will be like, oh, you know, I've sat in Every single board meeting. And I can tell you that the directors act with integrity. You know, that they have, you know, that they think about us when they talk about things that, um, you know, I've supported their decisions or, you know, whatever. So it also, it helps that connection, doesn't make it feel, feel like this board are some sort of distant entity that, you know, was completely disconnected. Um, so that has helped as well. I think so, yeah. There's now three people in the business who have acted as employee directors who I think speak highly of the experience of being on the board and how we go about making decisions.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. Are there any other things that you'd say that are quite different culturally?

Speaker A: Um, well, yeah. So it's for employee owned company. Um, I guess. I mean, it's just lots of tiny things. It's really hard to explain. But, um, we. So we pay out a dividend. Um, our aim is to pay out a dividend every year, which is a portion of our profits. Um, so that's.

Speaker B: Is it a maximum of 2% ownership per employee or something like that?

Speaker A: No. So the beneficiary trust, the way we have it is. Oh, I don't. So you might be talking about something else, but the way we do it is we have 52% of the company is owned by this trust. And then, um, when we pay out dividends, 52% of the dividends go to the um, trust and then that's distributed to the employees.

Speaker B: Um, so that's equal that, not that people don't have a different percentage.

Speaker A: So that's up to the company. So we've decided that we, um, give everyone an equal share but prorate it only for, um, their working hours. So if someone's part time, they get, you know, like 2/3 of the dividend, but also for how much of the year that you worked. So if you, um, became an employee owner halfway through the year of 2023 and we paid out, ah, a dividend for 2023, then you get half of that. Because obviously people who worked there the whole year would get the whole amount. Um, but lots of different companies do it different ways. So some people will do it as a percentage, percentage of salary. Um, so, you know, working a bit more like a bonus. Um, but I guess the, the main difference is that it's not a target. It's not like, based on individual targets. So it's not like, oh, Leo, you have to achieve this. And then Jane, you have to achieve this. And you'll get a different number because you're all owners. If everyone gets it, everyone gets it. And if no one gets it, no one gets it. And um, and then, you know, in theory, you know, Leah, who works the same hours as Bob, gets the same amount of money. And that's true of, you know, like the MD has the same amount as the person who, you know is in an entry level job. Um, and again I think we think that that's the best way to promote the idea that you're an owner. M. Um. And that you share in the benefits of a company.

Speaker B: Yeah, I really like that because I think I've spoken to other EO companies in the past and I think they've almost had it where, you know, because, because you can sell all of it, can't you? To the trust.

Speaker A: You can. Yeah. 100% owned. Yeah.

Speaker B: And um, or 95% or whatever. And I think the, the way they described how they structured it was they had it sort of. If you were entry level you'd have 0.5%. If you were a manager you'd have 1% and if you were ah, a director you'd have 2%.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so it was done based on seniority.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I really like how um, inclusive that is.

Speaker A: Yeah. And like in some ways you don't, I don't know if you want it to feel like a bonus. There's nothing to stop you doing a bonus as well. Um, we don't but like some companies do bonuses and the sort of dividend. But there are rules around sort of a dividend. So it has to, you have to treat everyone equally. And that kind of, um, that doesn't mean that you have to um, sort of pay everyone the same amount, but equally might be like 2% of everyone's salary. So that in the HMRC's view is equally. Um, but there are rules as well that kind of try to distinguish it as a dividend, um, as opposed to the traditional bonus style. Okay.

Speaker B: And then outside of work, I mean it sounds like you've found this purpose driven path and um, it's ignited something in you. Do you find space or time to give back outside?

Speaker A: Um, so I'm the governor of um, my children's school. Parents. Yeah. Which is something I started. I can't think I'm just coming to my third year which um, you know what, like before. Before about three years ago, before my slight mental breakdown, I really didn't feel like I had space for anything in my life. I think I um, think it was really difficult for me to find ways to um, give back. But I think when things start to align and when your mental health gets better, I think that, you know, it's not always true. I know people, um, can be very charitable, um, regardless of mental health. But I think for me I didn't have the space and about three years ago, um, after my daughter had started at school and I had my second child, I thought, oh yeah, this is a really good way for me to do something that I'm really comfortable with as well because I'm sort of naturally quite an introverted person. I really prefer kind of um, one to one conversations or small groups of people, um, rather than sort of putting myself out there and sort of, you know, I don't know, doing like a fundraising cupcake sale. Like apart from that I'm a terrible baker. But um, that's kind of, I am quite shy in many ways. So sort of getting to know a group of people, supporting them, bringing my brain, bringing sort of my, um, my sort of experience from the corporate world, um, to a school to help support them and sort of keep them um, I guess just keep them focused on their goals and also just understand um, what they're doing and ask the right questions. That was just a way more natural thing for me to do and I really, really enjoyed it. And it's, yeah, it's a really, I think, you know, for anyone who is looking to um, give something back. It's maybe not as traditional sort of a way as charity, actual charity, but it is actually really valuable and schools are always searching for parent governors. Um, and actually your experience in law, recruitment, corporate world is really valuable to those schools. They don't, you know, it's a really different organization.

Speaker B: I guess. You're, you're really engaged and passionate because your kids are there.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but I mean, and it's been fascinating learning about education, um, learning about, you know, children and how they, how they sort of learn and some of the, some of the struggles that children have um, before they even get to learn. Um, I've learned all that stuff and also just seeing what teachers have to sort of do just to keep, you know, just to keep their head above water is amazing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but that's really, yeah, that's really enjoyable.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's an amazing, amazing journey. And that, you know, the fact that you're finance director, uh, you're a trustee of another employee owned business, you're a governor of a school, you're a um, mum. How do you balance all of that?

Speaker A: Um, you know what, like I said, I would Never encourage people to sort of try and fit in more into their life than they're able to. Because if you had said to me five years ago, jane, you're gonna do all these things, I would have been like, are you mental? That sounds horrible. And really, really stressful. Um, and it's all kind of naturally come about as I've just sort of different parts of my life have fallen into place, and I've realized I have a bit of space for this, and then I have a bit space for that. And, you know. But again, back five years ago, there's probably a part of me that was like, um, maybe I'm a terrible person because I don't do very much with my life. I like work. And then I basically maybe look after, um. And so I hate for someone to look at me and think, you know, oh, God, why can't I be doing what she's doing? It's not always been the case, and it might not always be the case as well. I might. You know, as, you know, you go through the sort of peaks and troughs of your life, you might have to drop quite a lot, and you have to look after yourself, don't you? Um, so it's just. For me, it's just like working on sort of my mental health, my sort of relationship with myself, um, having, like, a really nourishing career at work, like a job that I enjoy. It doesn't bring me. Sort of brings me the right kind of stress.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, it doesn't turn me in different directions. It doesn't make me into a person I don't want to be. I don't have to go and pretend, you know, I don't have to, like, um, shout at people, because I'm not sort of shout at people person. You know, all these things, and that all falls into place. And then I guess you kind of feel like you have room then. Yeah, maybe, you know, you start to add some more things until you reach the pinnacle. And I, you know, I was, um. The. The school is looking for a chair of governors. Um, and I was like, no, I'm sorry. I just can't. Is that bit too much? Um. So don't feel bad about what you can't fit into your life, so sort

Speaker B: of piecemeal it almost. Yeah, I think.

Speaker A: And you also can't compare yourself to anyone else. Like someone who can, you know, do amazing, like, marathons and raise money and, you know, I know. You did the, um, bath marathon, didn't you? And someone who started a charity in Africa you know, everyone has different circumstances and you can't sort of compare yourself and you can't, um, you can't, you shouldn't feel bad for not doing what other people do. Just find your own way.

Speaker B: I think comparison is the thief of joy, isn't it? You know, the. I mean, for me, when, when I had my mental episode, um, similar to yourself, you know, someone I think my therapist told me at the time, charity starts at home. So just focus on you for now and just over time, things will happen, confidence will build.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then, you know, you can. You find the capacity to take on more. And for most people, being a parent is, you know, enough, purpose enough.

Speaker A: Oh, my God. Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, that's a lot, isn't it?

Speaker A: Completely.

Speaker B: Um, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, if you put everything into your kids and that's a life worth living.

Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. And that's, you know, like, I had a conversation recently, a friend who was just like, how can I, like, how can I make a difference in this world? And I was just like, creating two small children who are really, really happy. You've made a difference. Like, you know, it's done.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Stop, you know, stop trying to work out how, you know, I don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: How you can, um, influence 100,000 people. Because if everybody just made two people's lives better, like, imagine the impact that would have. Um, so, yeah, I think it's really. It's a dangerous thing, isn't it, to sort of put, um, too much pressure on yourself, to sort of, especially with everything, all social media and stuff, you put too much pressure on self to be something extraordinary. Um, um, but actually being a good, ordinary is a perfectly well lived life.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Um, yeah.

Speaker B: So love that. What a lovely note to finish on, Jane. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been really inspiring and I think hopefully a lot of people will take a lot from that. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Conscious Finance podcast. Um, it's really appreciated and if you can help us increase our impact and inspire others, um, it'd be much appreciated. All we ask is just subscribe to the podcast. Um, give us a like or drop us a comment. Um, it really does help get the word out there and expand our reach and hopefully inspire others to drive their impact further. Thank you.