From Investment Banking to Building Luxury Homes w. Allison Grafton

Speaker A: Welcome to the Insider's Guide to Finance, where we dive into stories from the front lines of financing, public and private companies. I host seasoned CEOs, fund managers, bankers, brokers and business experts who will answer your questions about how to properly engage investors, finance opportunities and build outstanding, uh, success stories. We dig into the educational how to's and mechanics of structuring good deals. You'll also hear about strokes of luck, tense negotiations and the pressures of closing, as well as insights in how to navigate the capital markets. What you'll hear in these interviews may very well change the course of your career, your company and your life. And before we get started, I'm happy to host this episode with the support of Olympia Trust Company. Olympia is an outstanding provider of transfer agent and corporate trustee services and has been supporting the Canadian capital markets for well over 20 years. I can speak from experience that the team strives to deliver on their promise of making it personal. So thanks again to the team at Olympia Trust Company and I encourage you to reach out to them at any time. You can find their contact information in the show notes.

Speaker B: Now, on with the show. Welcome back to the Insider's Guide to Finance. In today's episode, we're speaking with Allison Grafton, president and founder of Rockwood Custom Homes. Allison has a remarkable career marked by an intentional career change from venture capital and investment banking and into premier luxury homes and home building. Since then, she's won numerous awards. These include being selected as one of Canada's top female entrepreneurs, a Tech Award for excellence in entrepreneurship, and a number of best workplace awards, to name a few. I'm looking forward to this conversation because, one, I love architecture, I love home building. The process around it and the idea of leadership and such a change from such industries to me is fascinating. So, Alison, welcome to the show. I think we're going to have a great conversation.

Speaker C: Thank you, Corey. I'm really happy to be here. That's fantastic. You have a great podcast and some very interesting. You know, you've had some fascinating, amazing people on your podcast, so I'm honored to be here.

Speaker B: I think you're going to be one of them. I think it's going to be a great episode. Just from the 10 minutes we spoke, the best place for us to start is a background on yourself. Take us from your early career in venture capital and banking into that transformation and now Rockwood. Can you give us a bit of background?

Speaker C: Yeah, sure. Well, I started my career actually in sales at a company called Shearing Plough Large Pharmaceutical. It was exceptional training ground. You Know, decided that I needed more. I didn't want to be working for a big corporation. And I went back and took my portfolio management and my securities courses and everything to go into investment banking on the sales kind of syndication side, deal creation. And I had background in that as my father was a stockbroker and my mom was an accountant and business was. But I basically just decided I'm in Calgary. It's unbelievable, the culture, the opportunities here. And I entered into investment banking just after I had my second child. And I really built a career in exceptional wild venture capital, oil and gas, investment banking and met some of the best people ever. And Calgary is such a place of champion one another. Anything you can do anything here, there's cowboys and cowgirls and epic stuff gets done in Calgary. It's full of grit and perseverance and I loved it. And I met remarkable people. And during being an investment banker, I had the fortunate ability to renovate homes, design homes. That was a total passion of mine. I had no interest in the business to be in that business. So I went on to have a third baby and carried on for another six or seven years in investment banking with three kids and I loved it. But I suddenly was on like our 18th home renovating or build. And my husband and I. And yes, I'm still married to that man. I mean, what a patient, epic man and three kids. But we did all these homes and I started to see I'm very financially literate, I understand I can, you know, rip apart a spreadsheet. I. And when I was building homes, I was so shocked by the lack of transparency and um, if I can be vulnerable to a budget and your budget can be blown to smithereens and really put you in bad positions with these builders who are excellent, you know, but you have to hire an architect and a designer and a builder. And this devil's triangle for me that I call it the devil's triangle of hell. And I think that clients get stuck in the center of this horrible ocean of, um, not knowing. And they're really vulnerable, but they don't know how vulnerable they are. I knew how vulnerable I was. And I'm very sophisticated in a lot and have a lot of energy. I can, you know, but I thought, you know what? This industry can really need some accountability. It can really need financial stewardship and stewardship on every level from client care to client, mental health to client, you know, every single level. Budgets, timelines, product, the quality, do it on budget, do it on time and do the most exceptional construction that exists in our country. And I knew what that was. And I decided all of a sudden, literally I had a four week period of really thinking about what company I would want to do and enter this market. And I did it. I structured it. It took me a year. I wrote process and business process and budgets and analysis. I hired a really good cfo. Number one critical thing. He was a very good friend of mine from investment banking. And I sat on a path of creating Rockwood, which was structured very corporately. But I was a three person show and I wanted regulation in my own business and I wanted to do things right and totally disrupt this market and bring something different that nobody did. And that's what I did. And I founded Rockwood.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think what you, you 10 years into it now with some.

Speaker C: 15.

Speaker B: 15, okay.

Speaker C: I started. Yeah, I was 40 years old. Maybe, let me think, 15, maybe 41. And off I went. I'm in my 16th year. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, amazing. So there's so much to unpack here, you know, I. Let's talk about just the grit and perseverance of Calgary and the time, my God, you were in Calgary in your career at a heyday when some absolute legends were made, you know, and I love some of the stories there. And then just on a side note, I need to say this because you make me smile when you talk about Calgary as such a capable city. I moved back to bc. I live in the Okanagan now. And we still have our roots in Calgary and our home there. But when I crossed the border and really settled down here, I realized I'm back in the land of the benevolent communists. It is such a different culture. There isn't the grind and the grit that you have in Alberta. And it really came to show the Alberta advantage. So I. 100% Corey.

Speaker C: It is so true. And I grew up in Kelowna. I'm a Kelowna girl. You know, I graduated from kss. I have a home in, in the Okanagan. We have a division in the Okanagan. And I love. It's wonderful. But Alberta and Calgary, there's nothing like it in this country. The belief, the optimism. Anybody can do what they dream of here because people will hold them up and champion them. Um, isn't that cool? It's so cool. There's nothing like it. I just actually won. I was honored with the Business in Calgary Legacy Leadership award for the city. And I was so honored to stand up there with many other leaders. 22 this year, I think, or maybe a bit more. And 500 past leaders and be chosen as one of the leaders. I'm number six legacy leader, which is crazy. But I spoke about how there's so many incredible leaders here who are actually incredibly wanting to believe in the leader next to them and hold them up and support them, the grit that they've got. I'm a survivor. I am. Um, I mean one of the main reasons I think I have incredible success is my deep connection to perseverance and my optimism that I run with every single day of what's possible. And even when you're dealing with assholes and problem and bullshit corruption, you better stick your ground. There's huge integrity in this city. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, I'm so grateful to be in Calgary. Take me through.

Speaker B: When you decided to leave one career and move into another, you went from a very intense career being banking to a very difficult career and business being home building. And you know, I'm sure there was a bit of an identity transformation in there as well. Can you take me back there? And both some of the optimism and maybe some of the doubts you had.

Speaker C: Oh totally. I mean I was a woman in a man's world in investment banking but there were some really fabulous women as well. But I was also a woman that had three babies in full time work. That's really rare as well. And it was intense. The all sorts of the deals are intense. It's almost an addiction to doing exceptional big deals and being a part of something. And in an Investment banking in 1993 all the way like I in 1997 is when I started and exited in what was it, 2009. And those were epic years. But you know, when I started Rockwood, I knew my capacity and abilities as a businesswoman. I knew what I would do different and what type of company I wanted to create because of all my experiences from a cultural. What did I want my company to be culture wise, who did I want to have around me because I was going to hand pick them and not have one problem. Asshole that worked with me. I know I use that word a lot but it's true. There's a lot of them. And um, so if you don't like swearing I'm in construction. You better. I do, I have a little swear. But I knew I had such a passion for quality legacy construction, how things should be done. I didn't know how to do them totally myself because I'm not a builder. I mean I didn't build with my hands. I, I'm not a engineer but I knew how to put all the people in place. And the doubts were really, I'm entering an industry that is hugely saturated. There's so many custom home builders, custom leg, but none of them are going to be integrated. My gold ticket, like, how I've structured my company with complete and total integration, which allows. That's architecture, interior design, building right down to the last.

Speaker B: Just a smorgasbord of contractors, from your. Your engineers to your architects to your interior to your. On to your drywall. You've got everybody in there and then the trades who know how to support that.

Speaker C: And our trades have come along and been mentored and managed and grown. And I don't have any conflict in trades. I don't own any. I have no financial interest in any of the GCs, you know, the. Or the subs. I mean, and because I think that's a conflict. I don't build specs because that's a conflict. I just knew intuitively what I needed to do. And as a good businesswoman, good business person, I set out on my path with my vision, the dream, my niche, what I was going to do. And I have stuck tirelessly and completely committed to that.

Speaker B: M. Where does your confidence come from? You've got a presence and a confidence. Where did that come from?

Speaker C: You know, I think that's from. I know it's from going through really hard things and being challenged on your integrity and who you're going to be and, um, having the courage to show up as yourself and be yourself and own the consequences of what your opinions and beliefs are and why, and work freaking hard. I am really proud of, you know, the woman I am. I'm proud of my commitment to my family, to my marriage, to my career, to my team, to my friends. I actually have a really thought, big, beautiful real life. And that comes from a lot of hard things. I've been through a lot and been challenged a lot and thank God for every single one of them and had failures and picked myself up from those and still continue to believe in myself. My parents totally were part of that. They believed I could be and do anything. And I continued to surprise them. And, you know, and I just think you have to. You have to believe in yourself. And I really do. I mean, it's not ego and it's not arrogance. It's like, okay, you're gonna be good, Allison. You know what to do. You know what to do. Here. Listen to your gut. Yeah. And own it. And, you know, I know my shit. So when I sit down to. And I'm Going to have my clients back because I know what's right for them and that product and their home, everything, their budget. They're like, I don't let a client do something that's going to put them in a position that is untenable.

Speaker B: Okay, wow. You know, you make the point of having been through a lot of hard times, and it's like going to the gym for your own psyche. Your confidence is built on adversity, not on simple, um, things and nice words

Speaker C: and good thing, you know, you say about the gym and exercise and taking care of yourself, you learn that the hard way. You know, in my investment banking days, I got like Epstein Barr, which is like, uh, you know, total adrenal function failure. It was stress and three young babies. And, you know, I'm a woman in a man's world, but I was all woman. I still breastfed my babies. I took them to my office and said, I sorry, I have to leave this meeting because my baby is here and I have to breastfeed you. Yeah. And, you know, I was committed to being whole and not worried about what they thought about me. And, you know, what they thought about me was, holy shit, she's real. And we respect her. We respect her. She's.

Speaker B: Yeah, can you talk to me and about being a woman in a man's world? And then also, what advice do you have for other women, younger women who are maybe feeling and saying to themselves, I'm a woman in a man's world, you know?

Speaker C: Well, and I mean, like a man's industry, like, you know, investment banking, it has stereotypically been men, right? And, uh, women. It's tough for women to be all that they are because it's a man's world. It's really not. You just have to be an epic, smart human person. Know your stuff. Be as confident as the other people at the table. Listen, Guide like a woman in a man's world. But this is actually like, women actually run the world. Like, who are we kidding? They do. They do. And without women, it's really hard for other things to exist. Right. And I feel powerful in that. I'm so glad I was born a woman. And being in the construction industry, it's been epic. I mean, it is very much a man's world. And I was targeted by men in bad, dangerous ways in this industry. And you have to have strength, and you've got to also maintain your vulnerability. And all the beautiful things that make us female, when you put those to work in business and at a table with men, and women, you're going to succeed regardless, you know, so it isn't that easy. But men and women, I mean, you can have jerks on both sides and you just, you know, navigate the whole path.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's something, you know, some of these industries which, it's not that they're, you know, one gender or the other, male or female, it's that, for example, investment banking and especially high level, high functioning, hard driving investment banking is, you know, heavy a type personalities and high conflict, um, high stress. And that's not for everybody, let alone somebody who, who's feeling a little bit more reserved or. So it's not a matter of gender, but it's a matter of comfort being in those difficult.

Speaker C: Like if you're not fit for that,

Speaker B: you're not cut by that cloth.

Speaker C: But for me, it was even more of a dichotomy because I'm at this, yes. Hard driving, deal making, thought like, have to be at that table, you know, 15, 16 hours a day. And I'm birthing babies and raising babies. And so what I do with what I did, how I got through all that too, was just accepting all parts of me and coming into those part, you know, I was very clear right now I'm at this table and that is over here and I have to get this job done.

Speaker B: Compartmentalized. Boom, boom, boom.

Speaker C: Yeah. And then also know that all of that exists with you, in you. And don't torture yourself about not being a good mom. You're a really good mom. When My daughter was 7 and now she's 24 and works with me, actually, she said, mom, I was on a phone call driving. She was in the backseat and for whatever happened, I was driving a deal. And I was probably super tough. Like she said, mom, you sounded like a man and you were pretty mean. You sounded mean. And I said, oh, okay, that's wild. I probably did sound mean. It wasn't mean. Believe me, if you could have heard the other side. But I thought in that moment, yeah, she's right. And I don't want to continue to make that who I am. Right. Because it's a huge part of me. It's a huge part of being in that world. And that was almost a turning point of real pivot to saying, I'm going to go out now. I have enough experience, I have enough of everything and belief in myself, knowledge, expertise, and I'm a good businesswoman to start my own complete company on my own.

Speaker B: Amazing. Let's talk about Rockwood. I want to talk about building because I think it's really, it's exciting to me. I love building. We did our home, it's 1 uh, 00-year-old home in Bridgeland. And I did it top to bottom, even to the point where I move the kitchen from the back corner right to the center of the house and put a 16 foot island in. Just it lights me up. But it is so hard to find good trades and it is such, you know, I think I read on your website like with complete transparency, talk me through this about how you've built this, this business and your approach. I'd really, I'd love to learn about it and what you've been able to do.

Speaker C: So yes, I mean the basis of Rockwood and the most critical kind of part is you know, our value system and the principles that we uphold. The financial integrity, transparency, which I can tell a client every 30 days to the penny almost where their variance is on their project. We create budgets that have such real information that those budgets we've never been more other than clients choices that where they're like actually I want to add another garage. Okay. Or I want to add a uh, 18 zone sound system now and da, uh da, da. I wanted nine. Now I want 18. But we've never been more than 4% over budget. Now in an industry that averages 35 or 40, by creating all of these, these expectations, good financial business processes as well, we have been able to have uh, trades. You talk about trades being difficult. They want to work for Rockwood. We allow them to be their best, but we negotiate everything. We know what's right, we know what's fair. We pay the trade what's fair for their epic talent because nobody else can do that. Right. And trades, we don't have trouble finding trades. Trades want to work for Rockwood. We don't run, you know, I don't run with debt. We pay on time, but we pay what's right. So you know, they know how on the ball. My accounting end of my accounting, you know team is I structured 15 years ago one of the strongest, most sophisticated back ends of any custom home builder. I have no risk, I don't buy loss debt.

Speaker B: You're not kiting checks, you're not saying, you know, pushing one thing. And then what I would imagine is that uh, the trades look and say I can't screw around here because this is the best I got. Whereas I've seen other trades and been on sites where you know, a trader the, the GC is spread over seven different projects and you know, they might be framing and it's. The project's vacant for a week. You're like what?

Speaker C: Or two or three? Yeah. And they don't have trades. They're spread. So I have 15 construction project managers and we roll 25 to 30 houses. That's an average of two per person. That's the right bench strength.

Speaker B: Wow. Okay.

Speaker C: And I have 14, five interior designers and eight interior design project managers. They also roll, you know, depending on how many reasonable. But our bench strength, our eyes on our site. My team lives, my construction PMs live at their site. It's like, don't live there, don't sleep there. But you know, yes, huge, Huge. Again, stewardship of what we are supposed to be doing for you. And a lot of this business, trades build houses. No. You know who should build houses? Your general contractor, your builder, the one who's accountable. We don't let trades build our houses. We get ahead of it all. We direct it. We know, uh, my team knows their homes inside and out. They are really truly experts. But building and creating is one of the most fulfilling things I get to be a part of and to see that things come to fruition. Like from the first pen to paper, I'm involved on that first brush of uh, I sit at every single meeting myself, my senior construction PMs and sometimes our designers are at the table with the architect. We are directing. We're a big part of the design and we have wonderful architects who are very talented who work with us. And you know, I just.

Speaker B: We should have done this at the start of the show, but we didn't quantify Rockwood enough. Can you just bring me back real quick for our audience? You gave us a bit of a glimpse into your team. But like the number of homes, the size of homes, give it to me. Well, I love finance. I love numbers. Give me numbers if you want. I love.

Speaker C: Well, Rockwood is grown pretty tremendously. Our average house is probably a three and a half to four and a half million dollar build. Just our average. We've got houses that are 15 to 20 million. Construction, not land, not anything else but construction. I've got 45 full time employees, accounting my business development, my interior designers, interior design project managers and construction PMs. We've got over about 850 subcontractors who work for us monthly.

Speaker B: That's a you've got to go in concern.

Speaker C: It's wonderful and I'm not looking to go out of my niche. Could I be four times the amount of business if I did lower End multifamily or lower end quality like million dollar, million and a half dollar homes, which we could do in our sleep. They're not our passion. We are bespoke. We do. That's just not what I want to do. I could do that though, because I have the capacity as a businesswoman to start that and run that too. It's just not what I want to do. I am totally passionate about this part of the industry. So Rockwood has grown. My first year I might have done, you know, 4 million bucks. And now I'm way over hundreds of millions.

Speaker B: Wow. Good for you. I interviewed a gentleman named Lucas Lundin. He's an absolute legend in the mining industry. Built a multi billion dollar mining empire. And I asked him about his philosophy on what it is to be a miner, to be a, uh, producing mine company in foreign countries. And he had a really interesting answer. I want to ask you the same question. What's your philosophy about being a home builder for the client?

Speaker C: Well, my philosophy is always like dream design and know you can build your client's vision and dream that aligns with their budget. So really my philosophy is to build something that leaves legacies. Our homes are legacy homes. They are not renovated in 10 or 15 years. They are. And uh, that they house so much of somebody's life, they are to be taken with great reverence. We are a part of something that couldn't be more important to the people we're doing it for. A home is where all things happen. You can have security or you can have a disaster at home. You know, your home should be your place of serenity. So I just want to be the very best, producing the best product. The most special homes that others can't copy and they can't, they're uncopyable, uh, actually. But I don't want to be bigger. I mean all these guys, I mean you, I, I'm, you know, remarkable size of a company. Now I am just me. I own it. I own it 100%. I don't want 100 employees. I want those exceptional humans working for me, doing exceptional things. So yeah, it's not to be bigger, but it's to be the best. Always do what's right. I don't care if something's accountable. You be accountable in an unaccountable world and continue to, you know, truly evolve what people dream can be their home.

Speaker B: Um, very cool. I appreciate that. Not.

Speaker C: I don't know if that was a philosophy, Corey. I don't know. Was that a philosophy?

Speaker B: Well, it might not have been my single statement of a philosophy, but it is. And I hear what you're saying there and working with the client. And then I also. I like the concept of not just growing for growth's sake. I think we can all get wrapped up in that, especially the world that you and I have spent time in where, you know, it's quarter to quarter, you always got to be bigger. And if you're not, you're not growing, you're dying. But.

Speaker C: But I don't have to be because I own it. I can do anything I want. And I don't. I am not driven by money and growth. I am driven by doing something so special and magical in the world of homes that people appreciate deeply. And it has huge impact. And. And what we can do in our local community because of our great success, what we can give now, what our impact is way beyond just running a business. But I don't need to be bigger. I don't need to make way more money. It's fabulous, but it is not my lead. I don't lead with that. My thought and my decision making does not come from there.

Speaker B: Yeah. Some would say you're a bad capitalist, but I say you're doing the, um, absolute right thing. That's really cool.

Speaker C: Right? It's the right thing. And you know what? I'm not a bad capitalist, Brick. My life, I've done very well. I'm a capitalist. But I also, in effect. But I do it for the right reasons. I know that my integrity is, you know, really clear on all that. Yeah.

Speaker B: Amazing. Talk to me about some of the homes that you built. Like, what's the most, uh, you know, you shared. Like, you can't share names and so you can't share pictures, but there's got to be some things you've built which

Speaker C: are just spectacular, just remarkable. Like, you know, it still blows my mind. We go into a home, and it's the finish of a home, and we've had the journey. And, you know, some of our big homes are 24 to 36 months. Those are mother homes. That would take another builder five years. We are on. We are so efficient. But, God, I've done everything. We have done underground tunnels that are, like, wildly long to connect to an outbuilding you'd never know existed. We have done show garages, like, where you have, uh, available for 15 kind of vehicles and everything you can imagine in these epic spaces. We have done, I mean, every kind of pool imaginable. One of our houses just won world's best elevator It's a glass encased round mind blowing elevator that curves. Stairs wrap around steel that we've done. I can't even anything Rockwood can build and um, dream anything. And the amount of steel we use now we're really more commercial builder in so many ways. But we're building residential to that level and that standard versus just the base building code that so many houses still get built by now.

Speaker B: If you're doing this kind of stuff, what kind of cost per square foot are you working on?

Speaker C: It really depends. Anywhere from $600 a square foot for kind of our average home right up to 2,400.

Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. That is.

Speaker C: We built houses that are like 24,000 square feet with 10,000 square feet of deck on huge massive quarter like acreages that are significant. Huge privacy, helicopter landing pads, everything. You can kind of think of like I see epic homes like on the cliffs of Malibu and they are like wow, look at this hundred million dollar home. And I'm like what? Okay, that's not that special. It's pretty gaudy. And uh, what did they do? But we're doing really special. But we also do. I just finished a house that I think is one of the most beautiful homes. It was two and a half million dollars for a client who bought the lot for a million two or three. And it's precious and it's gorgeous and it's their family home and they saved for eight years hard working doctors who rented have two children. That house is a house for so many. Yeah. And you know what? And they chose us. And I'm grateful that we are able to do that too. And some people are like I can't use you, you're too expensive. No, we're going to create the best value for you. Now we don't do below this level but let us show you what we can do. And when you can do exceptional homes that are mind bending you do the best lower end home of anybody.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: Wow. And lower end in my world I know that that's ah, perspective. There's a home. I was just in a home last night of um, a friend of mine's daughter. And it was $480,000 here in Calgary. And it wasn't built great but it was a gorgeous little home. I have great respect for that. You know. Yes.

Speaker B: Thing um, that I really love is the, the old Craftsman's and kind of the Malibu or the ski like Southern California.

Speaker C: Totally.

Speaker B: You know those.

Speaker C: Totally. Well you love Bridgeland here. Historic old Frank Lloyd Wright or some of the big you know, big, open, gorgeous bungalows that with, you know, Marilyn Monroe's would have had those type of things. And not pure Palm Springs. Yeah, I love historic homes. Love them. I grew up in a house. Well, it m. Was my grandmother's house, but there were a lot. My mom is one of 11 and I'm one of the oldest cousins. And at the time when I was growing up, we probably had three 30 cousins. Now there's 50 some odd. And it was a historic home in the heart of Shaughnessy in Vancouver. Absolutely magnificent. And through osmosis, I think I learned the. What quality is what that means. Mahogany wainscoting and true leading glass craftsmanship, which, you know what, Rockwood, I've brought that here. All of my interior designers hand draw everything. Hand draw. In the world of AI and computers, they can all use computers. We have CADs, get every kind of software. But the beautiful lost art of hand drawing every single thing of the interior, that's what we do at Rockwood because people can emotionally understand it. It's not computer generated. So, you know, I'm a traditionalist. I love that. But some of our contemporary homes, which we do, bring a sense of tradition and warmth and remarkable. I just turned away a home that was just like. It looked like a prison block to me. And I don't care that it's 8 million or $10 million. It does not reflect who we are. And so.

Speaker B: No, it doesn't kind of light you up. You don't. You don't have energy towards it. Yeah, no.

Speaker C: And my team wouldn't feel great. They wouldn't be. What we do. Right. We bring a very human quality and a lot of love and a lot of good energy to the homes we build. And my team has great. One of the other things I think of success and, um, what doesn't happen in building is a deep, real connection to the client and person you're building it for. Because it's very emotional. You know, you're dealing with their biggest money, you're dealing with their hearts. You're dealing with. They have children, they're married. Like, we don't counsel a lot because our clients are pretty epic. We're saying, hey, you guys need to listen to each other here. We see both. Both your points. We'll make sure it's perfect, you know, but that does come up. But I think you, you know, basically houses like the human in building, it's more like get it done. Yeah. There's another invoice. I know it's $200,000 more than you thought. Sorry about that. What? No, you know what you own. This is up to you builder to succeed. And you have a massive responsibility. And I take that when you're building a home.

Speaker B: I can imagine there's also the post traumatic stress that can be carried into that home once they have it. If it's been a terrible experience, and

Speaker C: it is, and everybody wants to be proud of the home they've built. But some of the experiences, massive overages, financial, like, it can be devastating when we hand over a home. We have worked with our clients, clients for a long time by this point. We've helped them buy their lot. We have helped them dream the house. We've helped them, architecture permitting, full build all furniture selections, bedding, right down to the toothbrush, as I said in the drawer. We have done it. We have this huge connection on the day that they get their home. I think it's one of the most beautiful things of our business that we do. And in an authentic big way, we celebrate that day. They aren't allowed to see their house for the last month of construction. Nothing. Some of my clients that, uh, don't get told no, they don't like that. But I'm like, tough shit. If you drive by and sneak, I'm pushing your hand over, you commit. It is the greatest gift you're ever going to get. When they show up to their home that night with their family and their suitcases, we are there. My, um, Entire team, all 45, the trades, the people who created their home, get to come back and see what they did and had a part in. And we have a huge celebration. It is catered, there's drinks, we are celebrating. And it is a real kind of spiritual handover for us to them and that we're there in their life for good. Like, don't worry. But this is special. And you guys are the most special today.

Speaker B: My God, that lights me up. It's such a. When you're building art and then you're sharing and you're passing that over, I feel that. I see what you're saying. That's very cool.

Speaker C: It's very cool. And I think as a woman in this business, it's part of my superpower. I really know what needs to be done. I'm the mom, I was the wife. I was the one building. I never got that. I got a broom and a key and an invoice and maybe a bottle of wine. And you've just built this house that you're like, what? Wow. But now people are Trying to do it. But, you know, I spend a lot of money on those parties and they are deeply sincere and our team, our clients deeply want to celebrate with the team that they've had. There's huge connection to their team and they're now.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Very cool. Can you talk to me about leadership and your style of leadership and how has that changed over your career?

Speaker C: Well, my style of leadership now and, um, for sure through Rockwood and where I can truly, I truly am an, uh, authentic leader that can control the path and destiny of many and myself. It's one of clarity. It's one of the total forthrightness. It's one of confidence. It's one of calling people out on what they need to do better and what has not worked. It's one I mentor every day. I take time to explain why that's not working. And I continue to hold a level of expectation where I am not worried that my team's going to like me or my clients are going to like me like me. They're going to respect me, they're going to feel faith and trust in me to do what I promised to do. So my leadership is one of huge commitment and I am grateful to be a leader and I take it very seriously. A lot of livelihoods depend on me and my leadership and my emotional clarity and my strength and my knowing. And don't take that shit lightly. And if your ego starts to get ahead of you, you're in really big trouble. And lots, lots of leaders. That is one of the things, you know, if you find yourself power tripping on something, there's a problem.

Speaker B: Of course. Do you ever have down days?

Speaker C: No, not very many. Because I don't. Because every day I really operate from. And this sounds so silly and it's all over social media and stuff, but I've always been really grateful, truly freaking grateful for the things in my life. The good, the bad I feel, the sad. I process the pain and I carry on to believing that there's better things and it's okay. You know, all of it's a part of life. So down days, no, I hold a lot of people up. Uh, but I hold myself up first. And, you know, I take good care of myself and I trust myself. I said to somebody the other day, so, like, I have two people, Allison, who constantly says to Allison, right on. That was a good decision. Or I think you better hear your gut, listen to your gut right now. That's not the right thing. And pat myself on the back myself. My soul is like hey, that was really good. And it doesn't matter what she just said to you or thinks of you in some way or he or because what you've done is full of integrity. And that was tough. And so down days, maybe I have down energy days once in a while, but then I just go work out and have uh, an infrared sauna and get my cold plunge and take half a day.

Speaker B: Yeah. Just re. Energize. Talk to me about infrared saunas. I want to get.

Speaker C: Oh, oh God, you were going to

Speaker B: go all over the place here.

Speaker C: I know, sorry. And I'm not really maybe sticking, but we'll answer everything. You know, there's so much power in conversation and all that wisdom. So I have an infrared sauna. We just moved into, oh, probably our 21st house, uh, in February. And I installed full infrared sauna with a red light panel. And honestly I had been reading a lot about just the benefits and we've been putting them in. We've built for a lot of NHL players, a lot of famous pro sports players and what they use and why for recovery and is infrared and which kind of infrared. And we've done all our homework.

Speaker B: You're getting down to where I'm going because I don't want to go find something, get something and then find out that it's putting some kind of uh, UV through me. That is not good.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Asking you, I think is probably somebody who's got exposure to.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: NHL. There you go. What are they?

Speaker C: Totally. And I'm not really out there to, you know, support like to be in advertising for infrared sauna companies. But I bought a Jacuzzi brand because that was one that a number of players use and there's lots of brands, but it is epically very, very, very good. And with the red light panel, those are two totally different things. Infrared heat and red light panel. And you turn on the light for light kind of therapy that's uh, in the ceiling and you listen to a podcast and that can be one of the best 30 minutes of your, you know, day. And it's a real, the health benefits, the anti inflammatory benefits, the cellular reconstruction kind of benefits. I just think it's powerful. And I have not been sick since. I've been using that three to four times a week.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Not one sick.

Speaker B: Do you know? I think it's every government office, international government office, like what do they call them? I'm losing my words.

Speaker C: Embassy.

Speaker B: Every embassy, every Finnish embassy has ah, a sauna in it.

Speaker C: Like sauna sauna.

Speaker B: Like a sauna. Everybody like you'd go and politicians would go and have a sauna together.

Speaker C: This is what it is. It's kind of a part of gathering from the Romans to the Greeks. Sauna. I mean it was huge right now. Used to, I don't know. But it's part of the social culture. It's also incredibly relaxing and you can do it at night. This help from sleep, the sleep improvement, I mean it really is measurable. And I just think with all these things you should really look at them. And as things are evolving and health is such a big, you know, we have to stay healthy, to execute, to live the lives we want. And you uh, know, I'm mid to late 50s now and I need to keep my energy up. My life force has to be, it's strong. But all those things really help.

Speaker B: Good for you.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: What mentors have you had along the way?

Speaker C: I have had some remarkable people in my life and that really believed in me and you know, also took a risk when I asked them to do they want to be a part of something I want to do and to have that trust and faith in me. But from a young age I probably had a teacher or two that I know were really impactful out of hundreds, you know, really. And my parents have been incredible mentors. They just believed I could and uh, they never stepped in my way. They were more of consultants than managers. And I think that was a very powerful thing for parents to do. You know, I wish I used more of that myself to be a consultant

Speaker B: to my children versus consultant versus a manager. Hey.

Speaker C: Yes. Because then you allow people to grow a lot more and to listen to themselves and to be able to reflect. And then in business I have had some amazing people, woman in particular, and three or four men that have been like my sounding boards, my guidance, like you're doing. That's a good idea, that's the right thing. Or have faith and keep your strength up because that's going to be a big fight and I'm right here beside you.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Yeah. But you know what, to have a mentor you have to be vulnerable, you have to be open and you've got to be able to learn. You can't have a mentor if you don't. So all these people I want to mentor, but they aren't ready. They're not set up themselves to truly

Speaker B: be mentor taken and actually make totally of the, of the gift of the knowledge and the wisdom being shared.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Mhm. Wow. Okay.

Speaker C: So really important and you know, leadership. I wanted to go back to that. Because to be mentored, you've got to be vulnerable. To be an excellent leader, you've got to be vulnerable like vulnerability and honesty, clarity, strength, those all help you in so many aspects of your life.

Speaker B: I've, uh, experienced that before in positions of leadership for myself, where vulnerability was what carried the day, is what got me and our team through it. And you know what? I think it might be hard to do, but when it comes down to it, it's being authentic is what it comes. And it might sound like token words, but if you commit yourself to it, I've seen, and what I'm hearing from you is that's how good things are built.

Speaker C: And that is also how you can motivate and activate people to be their very best. You can be vulnerable, come and tell me what's going on. I'm going to be clear. But I have. I might be strict and, um, very forthright, but my compassion is huge and I understand it. Right? And as a leader, vulnerability, being clear, being direct, being forthright, having your own vision and making others see it and believe it, which takes a lot of effort and time. You can motivate everybody to work together towards the common, greater goal, which is success for Rockwood, personal success for all of us doing all our own remarkable parts of the business. Because without each person on my team giving their magic to the project we're doing the company, we could never be this magical movement that Rockwood is. And so I have great respect for, for each and every person. And everybody on my team has a different genius. They have a genius in them, um, of different things. You know, that's wild. But as a good leader, you've got to know that, you've got to see it and believe it. And they're going to fail you sometimes or they're going to disappoint you. Well, they're not perfect and you're not perfect. So if they're a fit for your culture and your value system and your principle, you commit to your people.

Speaker B: How do you judge that? When you bring somebody new into your team, if they're a good fit or not?

Speaker C: I know they're a good fit or not pretty much, pretty quick. And I've taken a few, you know, chances on some who I wondered if they could do it and knew that it wouldn't be a failure if they weren't a fit. And I'd have to say this isn't working. That's happened. But you do it thoughtfully and pretty quick, you know, and you don't put Them in positions of leadership and you just know, okay, that's not working. And it's not working for them and it's not perfect for you at all or your team. So make a change and don't sweat that. Just move, you know, transition it out. I think, you know, I know I have a big knowing I can look you in the eye and know, you know, who I'm dealing with. And I have a witchy sense. All my team says say I'm a witch, but I'm a good witch. I'm not a witch. A mean witch. As a woman. It could be so. Such a negative connotation. No, it's. I really use my intuition. Massive. And I think that I also.

Speaker B: That's another thing. Yeah. You know, you talk about the difference between men and women and I think there's a study out there. Something. And I don't know how they measured this but women lead with intuition and men lead with just brute force, it seems. And there's a big difference in outcomes there.

Speaker C: Huge. And um, if you use your intuition and you listen to it and you also use your wisdom and you don't engage in the fear of the outcome because fear will screw you right up. And that's where men. That's where people rage. That's where impatience, that's where bad decisions and regret in how you behave comes from. Rage. Right. And fear and. And I don't engage in that shit. No. And it allows me to be much more open and honest and adaptable and able to pivot if something didn't work out. Perfect. And I thought it would. And that was my expectation. That's okay. You know what? Frickin own it and move on to the next thing.

Speaker B: What's been the biggest mistake you've made in your career that has been the most beneficial? I know it's a big question, uh, late in the game here, but many

Speaker C: mistakes that I'm so grateful for, but maybe a couple people. Mistakes that showed me so much clarity that without that eyes could have never been as wide open. And I'm grateful for those. Even though they were incredibly painful financial mistakes where you either don't invest in something where I really should have in my business, or I did and that was the wrong call. I'm grateful for those. They didn't kill me. I never ever risk it all. Never. I will live another day on every decision I make tomorrow. I can survive that mistake. Right. Uh, I wonder sometimes if you know, when you look back on a long, massive career, uh, that I've Had. And I know I'm only, you know, it's not over. Yeah, in a lot of ways. Totally. I'm super good. I've got lots to do. But, you know, when I look back, I think, you know, have I given everything in my life the right amount of time? Like my parents and, you know, my children and my marriage, um, myself, you know what? And then I give myself grace. That it's been an unbelievable life because I've actually done so much, and I could bring that to every facet of my life. And it's okay, you know, that's not a failure. I didn't fail anybody by driving and having a career. And you know what? I wanted to make a difference in my life. I wanted a different level of financial security that I didn't grow up with. With. I wanted, uh, to, you know, be able to have choices in my life where I could help anybody I want and be able to give it away. Right. And make it and not care about it and have choices in my life. If I want to fly to Hawaii tomorrow, I can do that. If I want to buy myself those diamond earrings, I freaking do that. I don't wait for my husband to buy me nothing. I'm like, nothing. And I. And he would. He loves it. I mean, you know, Kevin and I, we've been together since I was 18, so a long time. Almost 40 years. He was, you know, he's been the love of my life, and. And I for sure shocked the shit out of him all the time. He's like, how? What? And, I mean, I think our marriage has worked because I've been this way since I was that age, driven. And I've had lots of scary moments in my life, from health challenges to, you know, threats in careers and people being threatened by me. That's a very common thing for a successful female to have others feel threatened when they shouldn't be threatened. They just don't want to engage. There's lots of envy and other things, and I think that's total bullshit. I don't engage in any of that with others. I want to champion and believe in the best for people. And it's interesting, a level of success brings you so much interesting pain.

Speaker B: Interesting pain.

Speaker C: Interesting pain. And because you're like, really? Is that who you are? Is that how you're. I'm exactly who I am, you know? And now that I'm more successful, that's not going to be okay for you, because it has something to do with them. It's not what you've Done. I'm the same. I just now have a lot of choice and can do what I choose, what I want to do. Yes, buy what I want to do.

Speaker B: Well, that's, I think, for some, can be very threatening and it can create a, uh, level of resent, especially if they've gone down a path where they've pigeonholed themselves into a career, a financial situation, whatever, right?

Speaker C: And others, really super successful people can start to feel that way about people coming from under, but, you know, less than that are making their way. It's interesting. And my greatest guidance to people, business people, anybody. Life. Just in life, when you start to feel envious, jealous or malicious, you have a real problem. Stop yourself, look inside, reflect and figure out why you don't have to like everybody. And if somebody's an asshole, and that's okay. But when you are, you know, feeling that way, I'm, um, for sure in my late 20s, 30s, you know, it entered my thoughts, like, oh, why am I feeling that way? Huge reflection required to be stronger, different, and don't engage. Because life can be so much better. And I've got beautiful girlfriends around me who have been my friends for, you know, 30 years, and they have championed me. And without those women in my life, my life would be very different.

Speaker B: I want to ask you something about women's relationships. Through the interviews I've done with other women on the podcast, and I've asked them about mentorship. And it's common that you, you even said it. You know, I've had one female mentor and a few male mentors, so there, there seems to be more like male mentorship, even to females. But why is that? That females. There isn't that level of support. Do you see that or is it common?

Speaker C: Yeah, I need to clarify that question. For what? I myself, I did have one, like, true female mentor that was not a big part of my universe. Okay, she wasn't in my clothes. But my girlfriends, who are remarkable women in their own, just two of them don't work right, and they raised their kids, they stayed home. They are unbelievable humans that have so much wisdom as well. And then my girlfriends who, who work, who are driven, who own companies, who take risks, they've been my mentors. They have truly been my mentors. But peer mentorship, and that's powerful. I think other women are afraid to support other women because, uh, they feel less than, you know, and a lot of women don't know how to mentor really well. And I have been so grateful for all the awards, like, I've won many awards, but some of. And those awards come with a responsibility, which is to connect with other women and men in the business and mentor them. And I do give back a lot of my time. Tell me what's freaking you out? What are you doing? How are you making out? What's your next step? You know, like, from every level. And I'm really engaged, and I think I've made a lot of impact for a lot of people, and privately, you know, I'm here for them. That's been a gift of my wisdom, my experience, and where I am today that I'm able to get to do that.

Speaker B: Yes. We've ripped through an hour. This was fun. Um, I have a couple other questions I'm just curious about, but then maybe we'll wrap it up. And one is, outside of building beautiful homes, what hobbies do you have? And then what kind of media do you like? What books do you read, podcasts you listen to?

Speaker C: Well, okay, I am a voracious reader. I read everything from crazy, stupid romance stuff to deep history to, like, you name it. I have a book going every night. I read for two hours a night up to my husband's chagrin. He's like, what are you doing? Your light's still on. And it's part of my take myself to somewhere else.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: And podcasts I do listen to. You know, it takes a lot of time to listen to podcasts. Like, who has hours? So I listen in the car. I like Diary of a CEO Stephen Bartlett. I like Mel Robbins. She's very stereotypical now all over, but she's great. I love. Oh, I have so many podcasts, uh, that in a car, if I'm driving, I'm either listening to, like, my epic dance pop music, because I love that. Yeah. And I dance and I sing in my car, or I listen to a podcast or Christmas music. If it's Christmas music, it's on in my car from the other day. Love it. Yep. And I love to travel. My husband and I are really good together. Traveling. We are three kids travel with us. We have a home in Maui, actually. It's probably my favorite place in the world, so it's kind of hard to go anywhere else. But we're heading to Vietnam in a couple months. I've been all over Africa. Traveling is huge. I really, you know, other hobbies, kind of time with my friends, which not a hobby, but it's really important. I like fitness, and I really like taking care of myself and others around me. So from, you know, good food like tonight at 5 o', clock. It's 4:30. At 5 o' clock I've got my entire family coming for dinner. 13 people. And I've got a 13 pound roast in the oven. Thank God my nanny is there. So that's uh. The other really important thing is take care of yourself. Our nannies worked for our family for 20 years. We hired her when our kids were little and my life is insane. She now still works for us at home for Kevin and I, she keeps our life rolling. We've got two amazing cats, a beautiful dog, a, uh, full life and thank God for her. I just have to do a shout out to Pam. Holy shit. Never think you're the hero and can do it all because you can't. Your laundry should be kept up when you're as busy as I am. I want really good food in my fridge. Want to eat? Well, I can't do it all, but I set the table for it. Right, I know. And I drive it and I set the vision and then you make it happen.

Speaker B: Amazing. Just take me back to the books. So I want to share this. And the irony is I've never shared this on social media. Yeah, but I went out and deleted all of my social media with exceptional LinkedIn because it was sucking my brain.

Speaker C: Sucking.

Speaker B: And I started reading again and it was like going to the gym as an obese pro person. It was so painful to get there

Speaker C: and to get out to stop it.

Speaker B: Well, to stop social media, stop eating the junk food and to start going to the gym, the mental gym, regularly.

Speaker C: I read that about you. You told. Yeah, carry on now.

Speaker B: I read all the time. I just can't. I have some idle time. I'm reading, reading, reading. So I'm always looking for great books. I love great recommendations. I don't know if I'm a romance kind of novel person as you suggested, but if you have anything to suggest otherwise, I'd love to hear it.

Speaker C: I actually have something right here that I have. Have you ever read Sapiens?

Speaker B: It started to hard.

Speaker C: Hard.

Speaker B: That's a big book.

Speaker C: Yeah, powerful. My first degree was physical anthropology, Archaeology. Sapiens is just a powerful. I loved it, loved it. But that's a grind.

Speaker B: It's a grind.

Speaker C: What about the Myth of Normal?

Speaker B: No.

Speaker C: Oh, now the center of that book is really tough because it's super sciency. But it couldn't be more fascinating. It's by Normal mate. Yeah, the Myth of Normal. Unbelievable. Have you read Red Notice Business in Russia? Oh yeah. Have you read some of my other ones? I wrote, well, the Night Circus, which is fiction, romance, adventure. Cool. I loved it. I love those type of books. I love a lot of historical fiction set in World War II.

Speaker B: This might blow your socks off. The Lost City of Z. Oh, yeah. Have you read it?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, it's just like, like so good.

Speaker C: So good. And I read a book every three days, basically.

Speaker B: Oh my God. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And what's my other favorite one that I had? The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Are you kidding? Really? Yeah. The Red Tent. Uh, the Red Tent. The Hate U give. Did you watch that show and read that book?

Speaker B: No.

Speaker C: I'll send you my list.

Speaker B: I would love it. I'll attach it to the show notes and we'll put it out on social.

Speaker C: And do you know what? You really should read all sorts of different things. Just read all sorts. The more you read, the smarter. Like the more things you have to talk about, the more you've just learned. And I don't remember all the books. Everything in the books, but very pertinent glimmers of remarkable things.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: With me?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Oh, um, yeah. And social media, it's a bit of a bitch, but I. Rockwood is, you know, we've got a big social media following. Yeah. The other thing, I don't buy social media. Nothing. I don't buy a single. Like, I don't buy anything. Everything's organic. Let it be real. If people love our stuff, they can follow us. But all these other companies that buy all their likes, I hate that. Or their followers, I'm like, really?

Speaker B: So, yeah, like that's so one of our clients. We're just on, uh, a side note here and we'll wrap up, but we're in the business of investor marketing for public companies. One of our clients comes to us and they talk big talk about, well, you know, this guy did this and you know, it was a hundred thousand dollar campaign. We got xyz. So we did a little bit of investigation. Well, it turns out the vast majority of the people, the influencers, engaging with their social content as a company, former pornography profile.

Speaker C: Right. Great.

Speaker B: And just like, anyway, it's just gross good money throwing it bad. And I appreciate what you're saying there. It's all real and if you like it, you like, and if you don't, go away.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I totally agree with that. And uh, people are always, you know. One of the things that I like, I don't get, oh, we're so popular. I feel good about that. Doesn't make me feel anything. I'm like, it's great. I want to showcase some of the beautiful things we do. Showcase my team showcase stuff. Right. Social media is great, but really, uh, the bigger thing for me for a PR marketing like is the real awards we win. Like to win as a private company, as a private residential homebuilder, to win best managed company by Deloitte CIBC five years in a row. That's unheard of. That's won that because most builders, you have multiple book. It's not a business that you want Deloitte usually, you know, opening your business. Yeah, I do.

Speaker B: One, your awards and accolades are there. It's remarkable. Yes, you've done and well, well deserved. But, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, you don't get these awards if you don't go out there and showcase yourself and help people see. And I think once again start seeing. And the question is, I had it earlier in the questions we didn't actually cross. It was how have you leveraged PR and invested in it? Because it's a very powerful brand building tool.

Speaker C: Totally. I mean, I am, um, pr. I'm out there, I'm making it happen. I am supporting people and people. For the first time in the history of this company, we've been called iconic. This Rockwood is iconic. And we really have built that brand. I have been working on brand building and recognition since I started this company. The movements I make, the choices I do, the connections I make all matter for my brand and our mission. You know, I ensure clarity and explain my mission, explain what we do and continue to build even a better product than we've ever built and delivered to a client. That's huge. Pr doing your business. Right. And the awards have really helped. They're great. But some of them, like I won the Legacy Leadership Award. You don't nominate yourself for that award. You don't step in. You have to be noticed. You have to have made major impact. And you know, but a lot of our success, the best PR we get ever that matters to the bottom line is the happy clients. The clients that are like, you truly did what you promised and you promised that you would do it and you are 100% epic. You know, those clients, our clientele, other than outside a couple of 280 that are real not nice those people, but most of them are truly our champions and they share with their clients. My client list is honestly all referrals.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can imagine.

Speaker C: Yeah. And that's a beautiful thing, that PR for me, investing in doing the right thing with your client and your projects. That is good pr.

Speaker B: Yep. Yeah. Wow. Well, Alison, it's been high energy. It's been a great conversation. Thank you so much for making the time.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, thanks, Corey. I will follow you now as I have been since I, you know, you reached out to me. And well done on having this podcast. I wish I had enough time to do a podcast, but I'm glad I can attend yours. And hopefully people enjoy it. And away we go.

Speaker B: Great. Okay.

Speaker C: Okay. Take care.

Speaker B: Ciao. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Insider's Guide to Finance. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share this with your friends and colleagues so they can benefit as well. You can also subscribe and leave a review on itunes or the Play Store. Your support there is really appreciated for future episodes. If there's a question, topic, or specific person you'd like me to interview, feel free to reach out. You can connect with me, uh, on LinkedIn or through my website @CreativeReturn.

Speaker C: Cat.