138 - Lessons from Burnout with James Perryman

Speaker A: So it's like you said, you know, yeah, I'm busy. But when people say to me, busy, I say to them, busy with what? You know, is it good busy? Is it, uh, overwhelmed busy? Or if people say, yeah, I'm not bad, and I'm like, are you not bad or are you good? Language is important. If the words you're saying aren't, uh, necessarily as positive as they could be, I care.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Smash M youh Own Ceiling podcast, helping you to up level your thinking, elevate your success, and create the life you really want. I'm your host, Barbara Nixon, and your next level leadership journey starts here. Hey, it's Barbara. How are you doing? Hope you're having a fantastic week. Now, today I've got the pleasure of sharing a fantastic chat that I had with the lovely James Perryman. Now, James is an experienced event host. He's a speaker, trainer, and coach, and he works with businesses and leaders to help them discover their potential potential and increase their performance. And in this conversation, we talk all about burnout. Now, I've had burnout. I had burnout at the beginning of 2021, and you'll hear my story in the conversation. And James also has experienced burnout, and he also shares his story. And, uh, we talk about, as well as sharing our stories of burnout, we talk about what happened before then. So what was the lead up to burnout? What? We talk about what it's like to be able to say no and how can we actually start dialing that up. We talk about how to plan our calendars and our busy schedules. And James shares how he does it, I share how I do it, and we also talk about mindset and the importance of all the daily micro choices that we make and decision fatigue as well. So this episode is packed full of goodness. Honestly, it's such a good one. So without further ado, let's dive in. Hey, James, how are you doing?

Speaker A: I'm good, Barbara, thank you. How are you?

Speaker B: I'm really good. I'm really good. Are you enjoying all this great weather?

Speaker A: Yeah, I just literally messaged someone earlier this morning and said, I think last week was the summer because it's now rain. It's forecast to rain this week, next week. So it's. It's coming back. But, yeah, I love it. Although sitting, I'm liking having some time at home, but I look out the window and think, should I work outside? And then I realize my productivity will go through the floor. It just would not work. And, um, that can be the Reward. That's the reward for having. Doing some good work outside at lunch, have some breaks during the day, that kind of thing.

Speaker B: Right. So I want to talk about that first off. I think that's really important. So if you listen to this on record, it's now what we in. We're the first of June and um, here in the uk we've had a spell of good weather which as Brits. We've got two Brits together. We have to talk about the weather because it's a lot. And we'll get arrested. We don't. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um.

Speaker B: And um, working outside. Geez. Can you see your laptop if you. Your screen?

Speaker A: Wow. That's the thing. I've got a. I've got a nice table outside. It's got a big parasol that can go over the top so it can shaded so I would be able to see it. I have to turn the screen up but. And I can take another look. I've got a portable monitor so I could take that out because often I'm doing design work and it really helps having a stopping screen. But I think it was more the heat perspective. I think when you start feeling too warm and a bit lethargic and a bit relaxed and it's, it's. That's when my productivity would. Yeah. Would plummet and I'm better off being in a cool environment and then dip in and out.

Speaker B: Yeah, I do that every so often. I'll do a bit of work and then I'll go outside. I grow veg, so I've got all go outside the garden. I kind of like stare at my veg because.

Speaker A: Willing them to grow more.

Speaker B: Yeah, you've got to look at it and see every tiny little bit of growth.

Speaker A: You talk to them as well, right?

Speaker B: Oh, yes. Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Meander round, just chatting to my veg and throwing a ball in the garden with the dog and. But it's nice. It's just. I'm so empowered.

Speaker A: I like it, I like it, I like that.

Speaker B: But we want to talk about something else today, which is burnout, which is complete. Uh, opposite.

Speaker A: It is. It is, yeah. There's a theme, but sun burn, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Guys and girls. Yeah.

Speaker B: So when did you have your burnout?

Speaker A: Mine was a long time ago. I was in my mid-20s, so we're going back about 25 years. Uh, but middle of my career when I was, uh, I was wanting to progress my career, I was pretty hungry for more. Very naive, Very naive about what it looked like, what it took As I was working as part of a, a big organization, O2, most of my, most of my career was with O2 and it's many guys is. So it was, it was a great place to have a career. It, you know, it fostered. It supported people who were ambitious, who wanted either to bring some breadth to their role, to climb the management ladder, to become a subject matter expert, work in different areas. I didn't know that at that point. I just assumed that basically find yourself someone who can mentor you, someone nice and senior, just follow their guidance, do what they say and great things will come. And my time, it will be my time. And uh, and I realized that by perhaps choosing the wrong mentor, someone who probably didn't realize what it meant to be a mentor as well and to have that responsibility for someone's development to be part of their journey. But also the fact that I was just saying yes to loads of work as a project manager, I was just taking so much on, probably exploiting the fact that I was a, uh, single parent at the time and therefore had some flexibility. But I was working away a lot, working overnight once a week, literally I would work all through a Thursday night fueled by Red Bull and MTV and attempt to work on the Friday. And it all came to a bit of a, bit of a full stop, um, one Christmas when my body, thankfully my body more than my mind, but my body just said, you've had enough of this and we're going to give you a nice healthy dose of psoriasis from the top of your head to the tips of your feet. But it was a real awakening at that point. It was. I m. Didn't, I didn't put the pieces together. It took, it took some conversations and a visit with a doctor to talk about lifestyle work patterns and get, get below the, the veneer conversation that I, I went into those with, uh, to really understand that I was, I was putting my body and my mind under stress and my, my body was the first it against, um, and, and that, that really gave me reason to pause and reflect and, and recover and then think about if I am still ambitious, what's the right way of doing this?

Speaker B: Yeah. What does that actually look like? So when, when it happened for you, did you not see anything come in? You just thought had you got accustomed to that way of working?

Speaker A: I'd become accustomed to that way of working. It was a routine. It fitted in with everything else. The annoying cough that I developed, I just put down to being an annoying cough. And that was probably the only symptom that was, you know, it was part of, part of many that I then had at the point where it had all gone wrong and a doctor kind of pointed them all, brought them all together and said, actually the cough and this, these, this rash you've got everywhere and a couple of other bits, this is all psoriasis. This is stress, this is, you know, burnout. Um, so I didn't see the signs. And, and I guess it's interesting in this conversation, just thinking, looking back, I didn't have someone saying, james, these, these work habits of yours, they're not very healthy, are they? Yeah, but possibly I didn't really let people know. I didn't, you know, I had my mentor, but that person was part of the problem. I didn't have someone at home necessarily. I didn't have a coach, uh, you know, family nearby. But I probably wasn't opening up about it and saying, oh, I've had another week, you know, being away, working all through Thursday night. Too much Red Bull, too much coffee. Yeah, I wasn't talking. And so probably, you know, no one, no one could see.

Speaker B: And usually we don't talk about. We wouldn't talk about that anyway because it's the norm. Right. Because as humans, we tolerate so much and it just becomes the way that we work. And doesn't everybody work like this? And, you know, and so when we're talking to people, it's probably not something that we'd mention because that's just life. Yeah. We might, you might just say, oh, I'm working, I'm busy at work. I've got loads. Yeah. Not. Yeah, I've just topped up on my 10th Red Bull of the day or whatever, you know, and I haven't slept for ages. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, yeah. Now we just tolerate things.

Speaker A: It is. And I think language is important. And, and it's because of going through that that it, you know, it did for the remaining. What did I have remaining? Crikey, um, maybe another 10 years of my career or so. It helped me kind of fine tune and approach career development in a different way. But some of the language has stuck with me. So it's like you said, you know, yeah, I'm busy. But when people say to me busy, I say to them, busy with what? Is it good busy? Is it overwhelmed busy? Or if people say, yeah, I'm not bad, and I'm like, are you not bad or are you good? Language is important because it's verbal language, body language. There are lenses into how people are and if the words you're saying aren't, uh, necessarily as positive as they could be, I care. And so I want to ask. And if your words don't match your body language, then something's up and I'd rather ask and talk about it than let someone else be the next James of that time.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm exactly the same as well. I look out for that because it's something that we can dismiss so easily, especially in the leadership and business space. Right. We're hardwired to be busy and productive and where were success driven. So I remember my burnout was slightly different to yours because it was, um, after lockdown. So I'd have. We'd had all of 2020, obviously we were all in lockdown, but me and my husband were like off the charts busy. So we were, we just didn't stop the entire year that we had or we didn't have a day off. We were just like constant. And um, while the rest of the world was. I looked out on my street, you know, and everybody was cheering for the NHS and.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And making sourdough and I was very jealous. But we were just really, really busy. And then it got to just after Christmas, because you said yours happened at Christmas. I think it's the time when we stop, isn't it? When we naturally just sit down and start watching movies and just chill out. Yeah, we give ourselves permission to stop. And after, I think it was probably in the, in between, between Christmas and New Year where everything really does stop and I found myself lying on the sofa watching Grey's Anatomy from the start. And I think there's probably about 14 million series in that M program and not moving and not being able to move and just thinking, I don't want to do anything. No, I've just, I'm just out. I've done. Yeah, I'm just down. And I was quite lucky that the people I've got, my husband and two older children were, they just bring me cups of tea and everybody just let me rest, which was great. And it's exactly what I needed. And that rest gave me time to just think about. Actually I've been working in a silly way here and I don't want to do that. And we needed to, but I'm not doing that anymore. Um, I'm changing my work habits, I'm changing what I want to do. I literally just put everything under the microscope. After I'd watched pretty much every episode of Grace and Hudson. Yeah, I needed, ah, that time to just have a Bit of a zombie out moment because bird out can come in lots of different ways, you know, can't it? Yeah. Uh, but yeah. Uh, so you didn't recognize that yours were coming. I had a feeling. I knew that what uh, was happening wasn't healthy but we didn't part of the world at that time with there wasn't an alternative for us. Uh, you know, and it was just a case of right, we just need to knuckle down and at some point it's going to come good. And I remember like going for like little walks and things. So you'd have your time out. You were allowed.

Speaker A: Yeah. You're allotted time.

Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of time to go out and I still did that but it just wasn't enough during that period. But it was. I'm so actually even though I'm. I didn't. I wouldn't wish burnout on anybody for me personally. That was a great. It was a pivotal moment. Was it for you?

Speaker A: 100. Absolutely. M. Um, I agree with that sentiment entirely. I wouldn't, I wouldn't wish it on anyone but therefore do I regret having gone through it myself? No, it was a, it was, it was around the Christmas time obviously where it really manifested and was. Was being shown visibly. Then just into the new year I first started seeing the doctor. I then had acupuncture, uh, had to change a lot around my diet, drinking. That was when I stopped smoking even as a casual smoker and. But also changed my mindset a lot. Just how I approached everything really in life. Just everything suddenly felt different and it needed to. So it was certainly by halfway in the year. So six months later where physically I was recovered and I think whilst also having the physical recovery I'd worked on, the mental recovery or the mental strength to then see me through and see me forward.

Speaker B: Did you leave work or did you have, did you have time off?

Speaker A: No, I didn't but I had a very, I had a very good conversation with my manager in the new year to say that this is, this has happened and these. That was probably the first time I really opened up just to say that this is how I've been working and something has to change because I've got to get better and they were really supportive and so. So I carried on just. But just working normally and rather than working those, the silly hours I was doing. But manager was very supportive and said, you know, time. If you need the time out for your acupuncture sessions or if it's to speak to someone or you're having a day where this doesn't feel like a good day, just let me know. So the support was there. So, you know, I don't remember. I certainly didn't take a long time out. I didn't take weeks out. I might have taken the odd afternoon here and there if it wasn't, if I wasn't feeling so good on that day. But it was, I think it was the physics because it all happened at the same time. That physical recovery and, and really thinking about my mindset and my approach and what was important, that six month period was really important.

Speaker B: Yeah, I want to talk about mindset, but first, what happened with your mentor?

Speaker A: My mentor. I nipped, uh, that in the bud. Very politely. I just kind of just said I've got what I need from this, from this relationship at the moment. As you can see, obviously there's, I've been working myself a little too hard and, and um, I need to just make some changes, say no to some stuff, pause some stuff. So that's where I just, I stopped that for the time being. But it was then that I could see it for what it was and I could. I realized actually they were giving me advice and knowledge and skills, which is what I asked them for, but they also were doing that whilst giving me more work. And I hadn't seen it at the time. And I realized actually what they were doing, I was just one of their team. So I was adding to my workload and I thought, that's not what I want. I want someone that can help me find the answers and, and help me understand where I want to be and how I want to get there. And that's where the world of coaching opened up. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: But, you know, with time, I left it till later in the year, but, but that's where I made that switch and, and every light bulb possible in the world of coaching lit up to be coach and to be a coach.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Completely different. I mean, I'm a fan of mentoring, but it's, it's a different, completely different vibe, isn't it? So let's talk about mindset. What changed with your mindset?

Speaker A: One of the biggest things for me was it was being able to say no and therefore working out what I'm doing, going to say no to. So, you know, now with, with, you know, when I'm, when I'm training people, whether it's managers or people wanting to be more productive, I talk about the Eisenhower principle, the whole kind of weighing up the priority based on importance and urgency but that became my lifeline, that became my lens and my filter for. From a work perspective, but also a personal perspective. It just helped me, help me take a really blank sheet approach to say, here's everything I've got going on in life, personally and professionally. And um, I've got to start saying no to stuff, you know, if I can, you know, if there's stuff I can delegate to colleagues or, or to my family to say, look, I need your help with some of this stuff. From a personal perspective I can. But it importantly helped me understand what have I got to spell a ditch. You know, just m. Habits or practices that I'm still following that serves no purpose and of no benefit to me. My. How I interact in my relationships as a father, as a brother, as a friend. Just really taking that approach to say I need, I need a reset. I need a. I need a different approach. And, and it really works. And I remember uh, there was a moment I was in Tesco's of all the places and kind of just pushing the trolley rounds and I got to the cereal section and normally I'm. I was pretty decisive. I know what I want. Probably a creature of habit and probably get the same thing. But I just stood there and thinking I don't really know what I want. This isn't important. What the choice of cereal is not in the high end of the list of things that are important in my life right now. And it was, it was quite a weird moment because I thought, well, I want to buy something, I want to eat. But it's just, wow. I actually just. I've. I've some decisions I've just deprioritized and realized they're just not important decisions right now.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: But actually that means therefore it doesn't matter what I do. I can maybe have a bit of freedom, have a bit of choice and, and it doesn't feel pressured and, and I, I can picture where I was now. I can picture the, you know, that, that cereal section in the corner of the supermarket where I lived. And um, that was uh, it was one of those moments where I thought this stuff, this is working. M. This is really working because I'm. I know what is important for me to spend my emotional energy on and my thoughtful energy and mindful energy on. But also I know what, what doesn't serve a purpose.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And gave yourself some grace, right? M. Permission to just have some grace. Because we, we've put ourselves under so much pressure and you're right, those tiny little decisions and there's a. So many, um, small micro decisions that we have to make during the day. And I had this conversation not long ago, actually. Um. Ah. About decision fatigue. And we.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: And so you've got all these cereals and so much choice now as well. And we can get ourselves tied up in knots about the teeny tiniest of things. And actually, it doesn't matter. Just pick your favorite cereal, uh, move on. And this is, um, we. Me and Dave, my husband, we go for a date every Wednesday. Right. So. And most sometimes when we're busy, we always go to the same restaurant, the same food. Right. The same. Don't even look at the menu. The guy knows us. We go sit down and have the same food. And it was somebody that said, why do you do that? You know, that's boring. And I says, because those are the busy days where we just can't think. And we know we. We like the restaurant. We don't have to worry about parking. We don't have to worry about where we're gonna sit or where there's gonna be a table or booking or whether the food's gonna be nice. We just walk in, sit down, and we can just eat and just have that time together. Yeah. And we take the pressure of, oh, do we have to go somewhere new or, you know, find somewhere else to go off the table. It really doesn't matter.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because if the van depends on the importance, doesn't it. If. If what you said is, it, wouldn't it be great to explore somewhere new together? A new restaurant we've maybe seen on TV or heard about or friends told us about, and the thing is about the new experience together. Perfect. Then your choices are around that. If it's a case of this is our time to just. To reconnect, to download, to share, to just take in the world. And actually we want to be 100 focused on that, then let's not be clouded by choices of restaurant and food and so on.

Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. And there are days, just to be clear, there are a lot of days where we go and do different things. Right. Ah, these are the busy. On the. The really busy days where we're so shattered that actually we can't. We'd rather just sit down and watch TV together instead of doing that. Let's stick to our habit of going out, and that's our date night. But we don't have to worry about food and restaurants, and it just takes it off the table. I mean, it's why Steve Jobs wore the same clothes every Single day.

Speaker A: Right. Well, I was gonna say. And Barack Obama infamously had all the same, uh, clothes in the ward.

Speaker B: Yeah. Get rid of decision fatigue. Just, you know, it doesn't matter. And it's, it's interesting how once you start looking at it, life or your day through that lens, how many teeny tiny things we, uh, get ourselves tied up in knots over.

Speaker A: Yeah. When I, when I work with people around using this Eisenhower approach and I say, look, it's, it's good in the moment when you're. Suddenly your workload increases, someone sends a request in, your manager sends a request, a colleague, you can make a decision, weigh it up, and the answer might be yes and therefore you reprioritize something else, or you use some discretionary time and effort, or the answer is no and you say why it's no. Uh, but what I try to do is get people who don't know each other into pairs. And I say, right, there's a bit of pre work they've done where they've had the opportunity just to list out everything they have going on in their professional life. Mhm. If it's a manager. Is it? Or if they're a manager, it's around, um, leading the team, leading individuals in the team. But it's then their own objectives, maybe administrative time, whatever it is, and just get them to list it all out. And then I ask them in pairs, give them a good chunk of time to just share bits on their list with the other person who doesn't know them. It doesn't know their job, their industry, their company, and allow themselves to be challenged and questioned by the other person. So if we were paired up, you might say, James, you can see on your list you've got their weekly reporting for the finance team. What are you reporting on there? Oh, you know, I send these, I send this information. I've done it since COVID Okay. Does it, James, does it still serve a purpose to finance, still use it? Surely that information, you know, they've is automated by now, or they get it somewhere else and through the conversation, little opportunities to challenge stuff that takes up our time comes up, or to look at it and say, you know what, you're right, I've taken it for granted that I have to do it and maybe I don't. And these things free up my time, my thinking time, my emotion time, and I can do better stuff with the time that it creates. It's m such, you know, it's such a powerful exercise. But, but it's, it is about having the Right mindset, I think, to say, my time is my time. I've got. I know what I've got to do and that, you know, in life. But I know what's important to me and to those around me. And therefore I've got to. I've got to approach it in the right way and not allow it to control me.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. It's questioning as well, the assumptions that come up when you. When you're thinking that way. Because often we can think, oh, I've got to do it that way because, you know, there's always something. We've always done it that way. Or, you know, in this business, we always, you know, this is how it's done. Or if I don't do it, who's going to do it? Or whatever the assumption might be and just keep challenging your own thoughts and think, actually, is that true? Does it matter if I don't do it? Does it matter if I, you know, I can do it differently or easier? Or if I get Fred to do. It's just giving you that. Again, I'm coming back to the same phrase, giving yourself permission over and over again to think differently. One of the things that I used to ask myself, and I still do, is, and if you're my client, you'll definitely know this is, how do I want to feel? How do I want to feel? You know, that's such a powerful question for me. Where. When, certainly when I was going through burnout, it was actually, I don't want to feel like this. So how do I want to feel? How do I want to feel at the end of this day? How do I want to feel at the end of the week or the month or whatever? And I start every single week with that question. Yep. So how do I want to feel on Friday when I'm. I'm logging out and I'm finishing for the weekend?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Do I want to feel productive? Do I want to feel accomplished? Do I want to feel like I've got momentum? Do I want to feel like I'm steady? And there's no wrong answer to that question. But then everything else goes through that lens. So if I'm doing this, um, now I'm having a fantastic conversation with you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it will help me m. Feel the way I want to feel by Friday? You know, everything goes through that lens, and it allows you to just be that more discerning, you know, about what you do.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I like that every Friday, I. I look at my diary for the next two weeks because probably we're very similar. We don't have regular life, working life. No. Two weeks at the same.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: So I have to. So I look ahead and again I just apply that, that thought process of when I'm looking at the things that are in my calendar, whether they are uh, in the booked sessions, whether all day or some hours or whatever it might be. Remind admin that isn't with sitting with my VA stakeholder conversations, client conversations, whatever it might be, I look at it and say, is that day realistic for the next two weeks? Is every one of those days realistic? Because if I've got, if I'm running a half day training session and then have the rest of the day filled with some invoicing and some design work and a coaching session, it's unlikely I'm going to get all that done. So I'm already setting myself up to not be as successful as possible. So I apply that approach for the next two weeks so that I enter the next week with the most likely chance of it being a successful week. And if other stuff comes up, I

Speaker B: can deal with it.

Speaker A: And I do that every week for the two weeks ahead. I think what that does is that helps me know that uh, I've got my arms around everything I'm doing, I mean troll of it and therefore I can. If there's any unexpected things that come up, that's great. What I love is that, that bit you've said around how do I want to feel at the end of the day or the week? And I like that I'm thinking having just organized my week so it's going to be successful, how do I want to feel at the end of it? Is it a week of, of time on the business and therefore how do I want to feel? If it's a week of delivery, how do I want to feel? M. I'm taking that, I'm taking that. I love that.

Speaker B: So the thing is that it's always knowing that you get to change things. At the beginning of this year I started a different habit for designing my, my, my week, my ah, my schedule. So every second week I have a business development week. And this is where I don't have calls with clients. I just, there might be odd bits and pieces but generally that's a no client conversation week. Yeah, but it's, it's doing other things that I have to do in my project work and conversations like this, working on things, creation, you know, because I do, I write a lot and record a lot of content. So it's all those Kind of things that I like to do so I can get into flow and it gives me that, that space to do that. And I remember at the beginning of the year I thought, oh, this is a, it's an interesting idea. I want to just experiment. I experiment an awful lot as well in business and in life and just because it takes the pressure away. Right. So no success or failure. We just have a go at stuff. So I scrolled forward in my diary to, I think it was about May time at the end of April. It was when the first start time I started and I started blocking it in. Um, and the first week was an absolute disaster. Jen, I don't mean to tell you, uh, everything. I was just like, I don't know, I thought I was on holiday or something. I just had a great week of just messing about. And at the end of the week I went, oh, well, that was a fun week. And I did loads of fun stuff. But that's not, that wasn't the intention of the week. Right. So then I started again and did it again. The second time I did it was brilliant. It, it just, it all came together. But now I've done it a few times, it's evolving into something else. And I think this is my point. You could, we can try things out with, with our, uh, calendar, with the way that we're, we're managing ourselves. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't mean, say it's failed. We just let it evolve, play with it a little bit more. Yeah. I love the idea that you've got where you just, every two weeks you just plan, you plan for, and that works great for you. But at some point, if that changes shape, you can just change shape with it. It doesn't, it's not setting cements.

Speaker A: No, exactly. And it means I can be very, I can be very adaptable and always learn. So I've got a client at the moment where, where I'm having to tweak some of the content. I've got to make it very relevant to them and how they want some of that content to be delivered. So it means there's an element of design work I have to do and that's important to make sure I plan that time accurately. Because a half day delivery is half day delivery. If I plan in two hours of design and find after two hours, I'm only a third of the way through, it gives me the chance to say, is it my productivity? Have I been as focused and in flow as possible? Or actually, is it just going to take six hours and I'm, I'm just learning. This is a learning curve and therefore do I block out six hours or realistically do I put three lots of two hours and, and plan my time accordingly? So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's as good as it is at that time. Always have an appetite to learn. I think that's, you know, part of my ongoing development is always that, that reflection is important. Looking back at what, what's worked, what hasn't worked so well and therefore how do I take that learning moving forward?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. James, how can people get hold of you?

Speaker A: They can find me on LinkedIn. Uh, so just search for James Perriman. My company is Momentous, so you'll find me there. Or go to the Momentous website which is, it's momentus all as one word. So it's momentous.uk.com find out there bit more around what we do, who we do it with, how we do it, etc.

Speaker B: I love that. I've loved this conversation. I'm just reflecting. I'll put all the links obviously in the show notes. M. I'm just reflecting. There's so many takeaways from just uh, this conversation, which is great. So the ones that I can remember and I'll put it, I'll obviously put it in the show notes like definitely you could get to choose your mindset and you get to choose how you create your, your calendar. Um, and that in itself is incredibly powerful. Right. You know, just giving yourself permission to work the way that you want to work. Whether it's uh, planning in two weeks as you've done, or thinking, well, how do I want to feel this week? Which is the one, what I stand by. The second one is watching out for the signals that you're actually, you're not working in the right way, which is where we all started from. And you, and looking at what you're tolerating, is it just short term pain for long term gain, which is fine if it is short term. Right. We're talking probably short term, but if you look back and go, uh, oh, uh, I thought it was short term, but actually it's been a bit longer. What can I do to shift it now before it goes any further? We also briefly. And we didn't really get a chance to have a proper natter about this actually. The power of having a coach. We're both coaches, we've both had coaching relationships. I had coaches for ourselves.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And I will always stand by the fact that having a coach is probably the biggest thing that you can do for the success of yourself as a leader or running your business or whatever space that you're in.

Speaker A: Absolutely. There's always a saying that, you know, don't take on a coach who doesn't have a coach themselves or is part of a mastermind or something where they have, they have people around them because it's important. Absolutely important.

Speaker B: Yeah, I completely, wholeheartedly agree with that. And, uh, just having somebody in your corner to, uh, talk to is so powerful. James, I've loved our chat. It's been fun.

Speaker A: Me too, Barbara.

Speaker B: It's been ace. It has been ace. Um, I will put all the bits and bobs in the show notes and I'm sure we'll, we'll chat again soon.

Speaker A: I look forward to it. I hope so.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Smash your own Ceiling podcast. If you're ready for more, go to BarbaraNixon Co UK. See you soon.