Sean Munafo on Hiring Better, Building Culture, and Leading with Authenticity

1 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,399 SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of 2 00:00:18,399 --> 00:00:22,079 Pillar Talk where we build the foundations of sales leadership 3 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,600 success and attempt to create clarity in terms of what good 4 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,239 looks like for current and aspiring sales leaders. 5 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,600 Before we jump in, I like to quickly review what the six 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,799 pillars that I've developed for successful sales leadership. 7 00:00:35,039 --> 00:00:37,439 We have talent identification and attraction. 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,920 Even in a world of AI, this is still critical. 9 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,439 We have the operating rhythm, the environment that fosters 10 00:00:43,439 --> 00:00:46,560 motivation, engagement, and accountability, business 11 00:00:46,799 --> 00:00:49,520 planning, which is about our cross-functional partnerships on 12 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,799 how we play offense to plan for the future rather than defense 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,240 reacting to the things that are happening to us, mastering the 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:57,840 craft, which helps our teams win. 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,200 And then finally, communication and ownership. 16 00:01:01,679 --> 00:01:05,120 Today we are lucky to have as a guest Sean Munafo. 17 00:01:05,359 --> 00:01:08,239 Sean is the chief revenue officer at Lutera. 18 00:01:08,799 --> 00:01:12,719 He leads global sales marketing CS, driving growth for one of 19 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:15,599 the leading software providers in the legal tech space. 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,200 Sean has over 15 years of leadership experience. 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,680 He's held senior roles at companies like iSIMs. 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,519 He's scaled teams, he's entered new markets, he's shaped a high 23 00:01:25,599 --> 00:01:28,719 performance culture and go-to-market strategies. 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,480 I've seen Sean on LinkedIn sharing candid reflections of 25 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,159 his own leadership journey. 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,200 I've seen him talk about global expansion and his global 27 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,200 travels, defining best in class and celebrating the wins of his 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:42,239 team around the world. 29 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,719 Sean, thank you for joining Pillar Talk. 30 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:45,920 SPEAKER_01: Happy to be here, Rick. 31 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:46,719 Thanks for having me. 32 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:49,920 SPEAKER_00: Sean, when I think about our past interactions, I 33 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,480 think about what's made you successful, and we haven't 34 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,879 worked closely together, but I've seen great confidence and 35 00:01:54,879 --> 00:01:56,000 great swagger. 36 00:01:56,239 --> 00:01:58,959 Swagger was the word that came to mind when I was thinking 37 00:01:58,959 --> 00:02:00,400 about preparing for this episode. 38 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,799 How has that helped shape your career? 39 00:02:03,359 --> 00:02:04,879 SPEAKER_01: So it's it's so interesting. 40 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:10,080 Um what's what's at the root of a lot of swagger is often 41 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:11,599 tremendous insecurity. 42 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,199 Um I would argue uh imposter syndrome is something that 43 00:02:15,439 --> 00:02:19,039 riddles majority of the great salespeople that I've worked 44 00:02:19,039 --> 00:02:23,039 with, uh great CEOs I've worked with, CROs that I've learned 45 00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:23,360 from. 46 00:02:23,599 --> 00:02:28,879 Um to me, swagger is a byproduct of preparation and confidence 47 00:02:28,879 --> 00:02:31,680 through experience and frankly hard lessons. 48 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,199 Um but it one thing that's I think so important to me in 49 00:02:35,199 --> 00:02:38,400 terms of gaining credible swagger is really believing what 50 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:39,120 you're talking about. 51 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,159 I think when you're when you're working for any kind of 52 00:02:42,159 --> 00:02:45,680 organization, or it doesn't even have to be for work, if you're 53 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,840 representing a cause, if it's something for philanthropy or a 54 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,800 group that you represent or a topic that you're passionate 55 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,639 about, if it's true to cause and you believe it, if if you're 56 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,919 educated on it and if you really uh are going to own that 57 00:02:59,919 --> 00:03:03,360 message, I think swagger is a natural byproduct of that. 58 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,879 I think it's even more so in the case of folks like me who has 59 00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:11,680 struggled an entire career with imposter syndrome, where um I 60 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,719 don't ever believe there's a call that I'm prepared enough 61 00:03:14,719 --> 00:03:17,439 for, or there's a meeting that I'm prepared enough for, or no 62 00:03:17,439 --> 00:03:20,560 matter how many incredible opportunities I've had to take 63 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,479 the stage and present, I never get off and I'm like mic drop, 64 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:25,360 nail that. 65 00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:26,879 Uh it's always getting off. 66 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,159 And my first question is, how could I have done better? 67 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:31,599 And that's even right now, right? 68 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,080 I we have we have all hands call coming up tomorrow. 69 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,159 I guarantee you the first call I make after that is to my CEO 70 00:03:38,159 --> 00:03:40,000 saying, what could I do better? 71 00:03:40,159 --> 00:03:40,800 What did I miss? 72 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,319 How do you think it landed? 73 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,400 So I think for me, swagger is just a form of confidence built 74 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,159 on education and passion. 75 00:03:48,479 --> 00:03:50,400 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's, you know, one of the 76 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,199 things that comes to mind for me when I hear you sort of mention 77 00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:57,840 that is just having a high bar and then doing the work to try 78 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,919 to first self-exceed that bar and then create the environment 79 00:04:01,919 --> 00:04:03,360 for those around you to do the same. 80 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:04,159 SPEAKER_01: Agreed. 81 00:04:04,319 --> 00:04:08,319 I I think it's it's again, uh servant leadership is one of 82 00:04:08,319 --> 00:04:11,199 those things where it it can be a double-edged sword, right? 83 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,199 It's it's good to a level, but I think, and I think for the 84 00:04:15,199 --> 00:04:18,160 majority of your of your call here today, Rick, and and you're 85 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,360 thinking about maybe folks that are thinking about that next 86 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,720 stage of progression in leadership and sales, like the 87 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,279 whole servant leadership idea, it never goes away. 88 00:04:27,519 --> 00:04:30,399 But there is a time where you also hire for talent and you 89 00:04:30,399 --> 00:04:32,720 hire for confidence and you hire for experience. 90 00:04:32,959 --> 00:04:37,040 And while servant leadership is great, there's also putting 91 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,680 people around yourself that are frankly better than you are in 92 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:40,240 some instances. 93 00:04:40,319 --> 00:04:42,959 And if you you're hiring for people that are closing gaps, 94 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,199 you really can't lead by example there, right? 95 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,680 You're you're depending on these people to close those gaps for 96 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:47,920 you. 97 00:04:48,079 --> 00:04:51,759 So I do think it's important to set the bar of what good looks 98 00:04:51,759 --> 00:04:51,920 like. 99 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,519 But I also think it's really, really important to identify 100 00:04:55,519 --> 00:04:59,680 what are the areas that you as a professional are always going to 101 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,199 struggle with and grapple with. 102 00:05:01,439 --> 00:05:06,160 And then how do you work through that and have the confidence to 103 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,639 hire people that are better than you in those gaps? 104 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,480 And that's why, like one of my biggest lessons in leadership 105 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,279 and senior leadership is ego is not your amigo. 106 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,800 Um, if if there's a if there's concern or challenge when you're 107 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,120 going through an interview that, oh my God, this guy's better 108 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,879 than I am, if that's a concern for you, then you're probably 109 00:05:24,879 --> 00:05:26,879 going down the wrong track. 110 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,639 Um, you should be thriving to find people that are smarter 111 00:05:30,639 --> 00:05:31,120 than you are. 112 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,160 And then everyone kind of continues to go up together. 113 00:05:34,639 --> 00:05:36,399 No one's going to be perfect at everything, Rick. 114 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:37,040 No one's going to be. 115 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:37,920 I have plenty of gaps. 116 00:05:38,079 --> 00:05:40,480 I have a longer list of gaps than I do things that I'm great 117 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:40,800 at. 118 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,000 What I think I've specialized in is finding people who can help 119 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,720 me get better in those areas and areas that I'm just a lost 120 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:47,040 cause. 121 00:05:47,199 --> 00:05:49,519 I make sure that they got the best strength to pick me up. 122 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,079 SPEAKER_00: Is that just like a self-awareness around, all 123 00:05:52,079 --> 00:05:53,839 right, I know what I'm good at, I know the things. 124 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,800 Now I know the things that I'm not as strong at, and I'm going 125 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,079 to focus my, you know, particular energy in filling 126 00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:00,319 those. 127 00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:01,279 SPEAKER_01: I think that's right. 128 00:06:01,439 --> 00:06:01,600 Yeah. 129 00:06:02,079 --> 00:06:04,480 And again, I don't think you have to be great at everything. 130 00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:06,879 I think you need to be good in the core functions of things. 131 00:06:06,959 --> 00:06:09,279 You need to, you know, depending on what your role is and what 132 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,199 kind of organization you're working for. 133 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,600 I think there are things that are the non-tan, like the 134 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:14,879 non-negotiables, right? 135 00:06:14,959 --> 00:06:18,160 You have to have transparency, you have to have a proper work 136 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,920 ethic, you need to have empathy towards people and a deeper 137 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,160 understanding of what motivates individuals. 138 00:06:24,399 --> 00:06:27,199 But you can, you can, you can learn a lot of things. 139 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,160 Like, like most of us have the proper IQ and EQ if we're 140 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:31,040 already in sales, right? 141 00:06:31,199 --> 00:06:33,920 You can learn product, you can learn sales methodology, you can 142 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:34,560 learn an industry. 143 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,600 I just transitioned into an entire new market with extremely 144 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,199 high intellect, going from more of an HR, TA background into 145 00:06:41,199 --> 00:06:45,360 legal, which is super high IQ, very complex, and it's it's 146 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:46,240 really hard, right? 147 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:49,279 But again, as long as you have the basic aptitude, you can 148 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:50,240 learn those things. 149 00:06:50,399 --> 00:06:52,959 What you can't change in a year is what someone's parents 150 00:06:52,959 --> 00:06:53,920 couldn't in 40. 151 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,360 If someone's uh not ethically strong or doesn't have a strong 152 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:58,560 moral compass, right? 153 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,120 Those are things that I can't change that. 154 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:02,639 Like you are who you are. 155 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,720 I can I can work around it, but those are not the people that 156 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,160 you can really anchor to to help go the whole distance, not to 157 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,240 mention bring up the organization with you. 158 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:12,800 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 159 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:15,199 Well, for better or for worse, you and I have both been in 160 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:16,800 leadership roles for a long time. 161 00:07:16,879 --> 00:07:20,879 And I feel like the world has changed a lot from the time that 162 00:07:20,879 --> 00:07:24,240 we started in this, you know, like elevating from individual 163 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,480 contributor to first line management. 164 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,120 Um, and so some things have changed quite a bit, and other 165 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,879 things just haven't changed that much at all. 166 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,959 How do you sort of think about um how your leadership style or 167 00:07:34,959 --> 00:07:38,480 leadership effectiveness has evolved over these last 15 168 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:38,720 years? 169 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,600 If you take how you think about things today versus maybe when 170 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:42,240 you started? 171 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,160 SPEAKER_01: Man, that's a really awesome question. 172 00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:47,040 I think one of the biggest lessons is when I think back, 173 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,120 and I'm going back now 15 years, right? 174 00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:52,720 When I when I got into my first big leadership role, owning a 175 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,319 pretty large swath of territory, the whole Northeast of a of a of 176 00:07:56,319 --> 00:08:00,959 a public company, I had this like, I guess it was part ego, 177 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,399 or maybe it was still part of that imposture syndrome where I 178 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,519 felt so proud to be able to say, oh, if I go away for a vacation, 179 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,519 like everything's gonna fall apart, right? 180 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,120 That's how important I am to this business. 181 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:12,480 This business needs me, Rick. 182 00:08:12,639 --> 00:08:14,319 If I go away, we're we're done. 183 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,120 And it was like this this badge of honor. 184 00:08:17,199 --> 00:08:20,079 And what I quickly learned, probably in a matter of about 185 00:08:20,079 --> 00:08:23,120 two years, was what what I thought was a badge of honor was 186 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:24,560 actually like a scarlet letter. 187 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,439 Um, it is not good to be that dependent on uh to have that 188 00:08:29,439 --> 00:08:30,639 success if you're there, right? 189 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,600 It's you want to be there, you want to be important, you want 190 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,000 to be the pulse, the heartbeat, the driver. 191 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,399 But if if you've created an environment where things fall 192 00:08:40,399 --> 00:08:42,879 apart when you're not around, then you're not building an 193 00:08:42,879 --> 00:08:44,639 environment of leaders, right? 194 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,120 You're you're probably a glorified super salesperson. 195 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,039 They're depending on you for everything. 196 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,080 You're not getting scale, that you have to always be the one 197 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,639 that rings the bell and rides the deal in. 198 00:08:54,879 --> 00:08:57,600 And the reality is that's not how you're gonna scale a 199 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,840 multi-million or billion-dollar business. 200 00:08:59,919 --> 00:09:04,000 It's not how you're gonna create a succession plan or successor. 201 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,840 So I think one hard lesson is build it, build a team of 202 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:08,720 leaders, right? 203 00:09:08,879 --> 00:09:12,080 Like create an environment where you can trust people to ask for 204 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:13,279 forgiveness and not permission. 205 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,200 I think that was definitely one of the earlier lessons I learned 206 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,600 that has carried me a pretty long way. 207 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,759 I would say another lesson is um, you know, COVID was pretty 208 00:09:23,759 --> 00:09:24,399 interesting, right? 209 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,240 Going into, you could probably tell energy-wise, and you and me 210 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,039 are saying we we we run on a pretty high frequency, for 211 00:09:31,039 --> 00:09:32,320 better or for worse. 212 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,200 Um, not being able to have that energy in a room is hard. 213 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:41,600 Um, not being able to read authentic body language is hard. 214 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,840 It was it was fun at first, right? 215 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,559 You got to know people more differently, right? 216 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,919 They're home, their spouse comes in, or the dog jumps on the kind 217 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,240 on the camera, or a kid runs in and knocks something over. 218 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:53,519 And at first it was cute. 219 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,600 And then, like a year into it, people were like, I'm not 220 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:56,639 turning my camera on. 221 00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:00,480 And now we're just staring at this void of emptiness. 222 00:10:00,799 --> 00:10:05,919 So for me, it's it's been how do you balance this culture of what 223 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:07,840 will never be fully in person, right? 224 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:10,799 We're never coming in five days a week again, putting a suit on. 225 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,679 I don't think we're always going to be home in shorts and Crocs, 226 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,399 but there'll be some probably blend in the middle. 227 00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:20,320 But the other big lesson I think that I had is you know, getting 228 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,240 to know the more personal drivers of what motivates 229 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,440 people, that is how you really drive, in my opinion, culture 230 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:28,240 and retention. 231 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:31,759 Because in a world where most people are operating remotely, 232 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:35,440 it's hard to be as inclusive in culture when that's the case. 233 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:36,240 It just is. 234 00:10:36,399 --> 00:10:39,360 When you could close your laptop and you're now in your home and 235 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,639 you're off taking the kids to soccer or you're taking the dog 236 00:10:42,639 --> 00:10:46,720 for a walk, it's it's harder to stay connected to that fabric of 237 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:47,200 culture. 238 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,159 So if if I would say another thing that's super important, 239 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,639 it's really, really tapping into your team's why. 240 00:10:52,799 --> 00:10:53,840 What motivates them? 241 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,440 How do you motivate them? 242 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,279 Um, are you getting to understand what's going on with 243 00:10:59,279 --> 00:11:02,320 them as a human being and as an individual to really tap into 244 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:03,200 that frequency? 245 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,960 And I think that helps close some of the gap of not having 246 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:12,399 that in-office support system where I believe is the true 247 00:11:12,399 --> 00:11:14,000 definition of work-life balance. 248 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,879 It's not like, oh, I work eight hours a day and then I'm off. 249 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,440 Work-life balance is you have a really strong home system that 250 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,480 when that's you know going really well, it helps pick up 251 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,679 for when you have really crappy days in sales, which it's gonna 252 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:28,399 be the case. 253 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,519 And when you have a hard time at home or when things are not 254 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:34,000 great, you have your work family that's gonna pick you up. 255 00:11:34,159 --> 00:11:35,039 It's not ours. 256 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,120 It's you have a you you've you've reached homeostasis where 257 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:40,639 both things are working really well. 258 00:11:40,799 --> 00:11:43,120 So I think that's a second lesson I think that I would 259 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:43,440 learn. 260 00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:47,600 And I think um probably the third one is you know, I've I've 261 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,519 really changed over the last decade my hiring type. 262 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,039 I think, and and this isn't just because, you know, I think the 263 00:11:55,039 --> 00:11:57,600 emergence of DEI being a priority for all businesses, 264 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,159 which is something that everyone should be passionate about. 265 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,360 I think me coming from the family that didn't have the 266 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,039 connections or you know, second generation Italian, and we we 267 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:09,200 didn't, I didn't have any of the people in the right places. 268 00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:11,759 I didn't have the Ivy League school on my resume, I didn't 269 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:14,639 have the the friends from Cornell to help get my resume to 270 00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:15,039 the top. 271 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,480 So I think I've always really had a drive and passion for 272 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,480 overrepresenting, underrepresented. 273 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,679 But we still, as human beings, I think, feel like we're we get 274 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,960 more attracted to hiring types that are like us. 275 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,279 So they come from a similar background, they've worked at 276 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:34,320 similar companies, they've held similar titles, they went to the 277 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:35,600 similar school, right? 278 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,759 Beyond the traditional view of that, I've gone out of my way of 279 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:43,600 hiring individuals that bring something very different, life 280 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:44,159 experience. 281 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,480 Like if I have two candidates and one of them spent two years 282 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,279 abroad working at a company in Singapore, or they spent six 283 00:12:53,279 --> 00:12:59,200 months abroad doing a, you know, opening an office in Sydney or 284 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,480 Melbourne, those life experiences, that adaptability 285 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,440 that you need to go through that, man, are those really 286 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:05,679 important. 287 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,679 And I've learned those, those intangible experiences for me 288 00:13:09,919 --> 00:13:12,879 are so valuable because it brings a totally different 289 00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:14,799 perspective that you or me have had. 290 00:13:15,039 --> 00:13:17,919 And I think that's where a lot of things have been lost in the 291 00:13:17,919 --> 00:13:21,519 backwash is like those life experiences are everything. 292 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,919 If they've, you know, where where they came from, like what 293 00:13:23,919 --> 00:13:26,559 kind of family they grew up in, what kind of challenges have 294 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:26,960 they had. 295 00:13:27,039 --> 00:13:28,720 And that goes back to like the why. 296 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:31,120 Like building a culture of people that actually give a 297 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,559 shit, pardon the French, about about one another on a personal 298 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,159 and a professional level for me. 299 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,000 Like that is the future of where we're going. 300 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,080 It has nothing to do with a generational thing. 301 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:41,840 It's like a simple expectation. 302 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:44,159 Like you need more than just the work every day. 303 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:45,200 SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep. 304 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,200 Um, I so you gave sort of a few different um really interesting 305 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:49,440 points. 306 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,399 Maybe I'll dive into sort of each one just to go a little one 307 00:13:52,399 --> 00:13:53,360 click deeper. 308 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,320 The first thing you talked about is something that I think so 309 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,799 many leaders have fallen into in the early stages of their 310 00:13:58,799 --> 00:14:02,159 career, which is that super rep syndrome where you run around 311 00:14:02,159 --> 00:14:04,960 and you basically fill in the gaps for the people on your team 312 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:08,480 by doing the work for them and they build a dependency on you, 313 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,200 and you you get into that situation where now you're 314 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,679 working around the clock because you're doing seven jobs instead 315 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:14,320 of one. 316 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,840 Um, how did you spot that that was happening and how does one 317 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:18,320 get out of that? 318 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,440 SPEAKER_01: I think you spot when it happens when you do try 319 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,399 to take a vacation, number one, and you're like, oh my God, 320 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,639 everything's falling apart, we're not gonna hit our number. 321 00:14:26,799 --> 00:14:30,000 I think you you fall, you you have it fall apart when people 322 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,039 are constantly bringing you problems and they're not 323 00:14:33,039 --> 00:14:34,399 bringing you solutions. 324 00:14:34,639 --> 00:14:36,399 SPEAKER_00: Um and that's I mean, do you have any 325 00:14:36,399 --> 00:14:38,960 recollections of stories from your own experience where there 326 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,360 was like a light bulb moment for you, or something when you 327 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,679 realized that, like, hey, I got to change tact here? 328 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,120 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I mean many of us have had quarters 329 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,720 where like every deal it feels like is going off the rails, and 330 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,840 oftentimes it's because you tried to pull back or you had 331 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,399 other priorities or you had someone that you were hiring. 332 00:14:56,639 --> 00:14:59,519 And you know, I could just from working in private equity for 333 00:14:59,679 --> 00:15:02,080 I've been in private equity companies now for almost you 334 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:03,200 know 10 years. 335 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,080 You know, the the every quarter is the most important quarter. 336 00:15:06,159 --> 00:15:08,080 It's just how it goes in private equity. 337 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,360 Um, and there was probably one particular quarter that was 338 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,399 extremely challenging, and this was actually uh during COVID. 339 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,360 It was it was in 2020, it was in the thick of it all. 340 00:15:17,759 --> 00:15:21,440 And, you know, at the time I was at an organization where 341 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,879 hospitality and retail were really, really important. 342 00:15:25,279 --> 00:15:28,639 And unfortunately, that market was really starting to get 343 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:29,360 strained, right? 344 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,759 Like tons and tons of layoffs, restaurants were closing down, 345 00:15:31,919 --> 00:15:33,039 hotels were closing down. 346 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,559 And I'll never forget, you know, what what was our best case and 347 00:15:36,559 --> 00:15:40,000 upside now became the primary path to the deals. 348 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,799 And going to the team and asking the hard question, like, hey, 349 00:15:42,879 --> 00:15:45,519 how are we gonna backfill these three deals and having the like 350 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,200 the oh shit moment come up? 351 00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:50,720 And I realized I'm gonna have to figure out what we're gonna do 352 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:50,960 here. 353 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,200 Um, and it was a moment of extreme disappointment, and not 354 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,159 in the team, in me, of like, how did I let us get to a point 355 00:15:58,159 --> 00:16:01,039 where number one, I was so confident in these deals 356 00:16:01,039 --> 00:16:03,519 happening and I didn't create a plan B. 357 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:06,480 And then the second part was like, even when I did have the 358 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,840 plan B, the plan B needed to be, I was a plan B. 359 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,600 Um and what what I started to really do some soul searching 360 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:13,919 after that. 361 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,000 And look, by by by having a really strong team, which I did, 362 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:20,799 and I've I'm fortunate to have had that, we we got through that 363 00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:22,480 and we were able to come up with deals. 364 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:25,440 And there was also understanding of the market at that time that 365 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:26,480 conditions were changing. 366 00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:29,919 But shortly thereafter, Rick, I embraced a methodology that's 367 00:16:29,919 --> 00:16:30,799 been really helpful for me. 368 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,799 You probably have heard of it, the 131 approach to scaling and 369 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:35,279 leadership. 370 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,600 And if you haven't heard of it, it's it's a pretty simple 371 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,399 concept. 372 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:44,000 When any given rep, any given manager, anyone, even in your 373 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,600 personal life, they come to you and there's like all this noise, 374 00:16:47,679 --> 00:16:47,919 right? 375 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,960 And we all know that every deal has a narrative, and the 376 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,320 narrative is like it could be five volumes worth. 377 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,519 But at the end of the day, whatever's happening, you can 378 00:16:57,519 --> 00:16:59,600 usually isolate it to a problem. 379 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:01,679 Like, what is the problem statement? 380 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,960 And one of the things I always like, my mantra is just work the 381 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:05,200 problem. 382 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,559 Like, if if any of my former teams hear that, they probably 383 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:10,079 get the chill on the back of their neck. 384 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,880 Because what I always say, like, just work the damn problem. 385 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,359 Like, forget about all the other noise, let's work the problem. 386 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:17,920 But the one of the hardest things for an individual 387 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,119 sometimes is just blocking out all that peripheral noise and 388 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,400 narrowing in on one problem. 389 00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:25,759 So, step one of the one three one, give me the problem we're 390 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:26,240 trying to solve. 391 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:27,119 Is it pricing? 392 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:27,920 Is it timing? 393 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,680 Is it access to uh the actual decision maker? 394 00:17:31,839 --> 00:17:33,680 What is the problem we're really trying to solve? 395 00:17:34,079 --> 00:17:37,519 The next thing is I have them give me three potential paths to 396 00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:38,480 solve the problem. 397 00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:41,359 Doesn't have to be 10, doesn't have to be one. 398 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:42,240 Give me three. 399 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,759 Like, Rick, we found out that the person that we thought was 400 00:17:45,759 --> 00:17:48,240 going to make the decision in this process isn't the person. 401 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,799 They had, they, they overextended what they said they 402 00:17:50,799 --> 00:17:51,279 could approve. 403 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:51,839 It's not them. 404 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,279 We have to go to someone else. 405 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,279 These are the three things I think we can do. 406 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,640 We can go to their boss, we can go to the board, or we can call 407 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,559 in a favor through a partner and try to get it that way. 408 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,839 So now that you got the three that they recommend, the next 409 00:18:03,839 --> 00:18:06,559 final thing, the last one, is what's the one you recommend, 410 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:07,839 Rick, that we go forward with? 411 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:08,240 Right? 412 00:18:08,319 --> 00:18:09,920 So one, three, one, what's the problem? 413 00:18:10,079 --> 00:18:12,640 Give me three potential solutions, and what's the one 414 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,160 that you want to bet your butt on? 415 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,599 What's so great about that is number one, it gets people to 416 00:18:17,599 --> 00:18:18,720 start thinking for themselves. 417 00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:22,799 And as a leader, often when this gets deployed, you start never 418 00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:25,359 hearing from people after the number, after they start 419 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,200 thinking about the self-solving, right? 420 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:28,799 Because they're solving it on their own. 421 00:18:29,039 --> 00:18:34,480 But where it helps for me is it starts to help me identify where 422 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,200 do they actually have competency gaps? 423 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,200 If every time in the 131, the final thing is we need to lower 424 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,079 our price, we have a value realization problem. 425 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,839 If every time instead the product sucks, then we probably 426 00:18:47,839 --> 00:18:49,599 have something else broken around enablement. 427 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,279 And are they really focusing on what the outcomes are or feature 428 00:18:53,279 --> 00:18:53,759 functions? 429 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,480 So as a leader, the hardest job isn't the coaching, it's 430 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,559 identifying what do you have to coach? 431 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:01,680 Like what's the gap? 432 00:19:01,759 --> 00:19:03,039 What's the opportunity? 433 00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:06,559 So again, I always try to you know look through the half glass 434 00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:06,960 full. 435 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,240 Despite the fact that that was a tough quarter, it actually 436 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,079 changed the trajectory of my career because it forced me to 437 00:19:14,079 --> 00:19:15,519 skill myself. 438 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:19,359 And you know, through that hard quarter, changed my ability to 439 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:20,640 get better skill. 440 00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:23,839 SPEAKER_00: So I love this concept of the one three one. 441 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,319 I love frameworks like this that people can apply. 442 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,440 How does one bring in this framework into a new 443 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:29,839 organization? 444 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,119 So if we take Latera as an example, how do you bring in 445 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,240 this concept and roll out the like, hey, here's how we're 446 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,119 gonna, when you bring things or escalate things, here's the way 447 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,480 in which we're gonna do it. 448 00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:43,759 SPEAKER_01: So when I joined the business last September, I was 449 00:19:43,759 --> 00:19:47,279 very uh fortunate in timing that all of my direct reports, so all 450 00:19:47,279 --> 00:19:50,799 of my VPs of sales, my head of operations for revenue 451 00:19:50,799 --> 00:19:53,519 operations, our partner leadership, everyone was 452 00:19:53,519 --> 00:19:56,079 actually gonna be in office that week that I was starting. 453 00:19:56,319 --> 00:20:00,480 So I took the time to put together kind of a playbook. 454 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:03,519 Um, and and one of my really, really strong mentors, uh, the 455 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:06,880 guy's name is Tom Martin, uh Kurt, he's he's now retired, but 456 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,039 he became a really um, really important role in my life in 457 00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:13,759 terms of coaching and development of what it means to 458 00:20:13,759 --> 00:20:15,599 set the right example out of the gate. 459 00:20:15,759 --> 00:20:19,759 He had his what he called like his CRO principle book that he 460 00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:20,720 would lay out for us. 461 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,559 And after coaching with him for as long as I did, I created my 462 00:20:24,559 --> 00:20:25,279 version of that. 463 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:29,200 And part of that was that first 30 minutes, it's like, here's 464 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,200 what's important to me, like here's what we're gonna, what 465 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,359 we're gonna represent, what we're gonna stand for as a 466 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,440 revenue leadership team moving forward, right? 467 00:20:35,519 --> 00:20:36,480 Like, here's what we care about. 468 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,000 It's authenticity, it's leading through empathy, but it's 469 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,519 holding the business tremendously accountable. 470 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:42,960 And here's how we're gonna do that. 471 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,240 And introducing that one three-one as the example, what's 472 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,480 really dangerous, Rick, and this is where I think a lot of 473 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,880 leaders go wrong, is they use that opener as the Tony Robbins 474 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,960 moment that everyone goes into the weekend thinking it's great, 475 00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:57,119 and then by Monday they're doing the same crap they've always 476 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:57,440 done. 477 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,759 So for me, it's out of the gate, you set the expectation and you 478 00:21:01,759 --> 00:21:02,880 inspect what you expect. 479 00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:06,799 So in our first one-on-ones, I see this as a problem, what's 480 00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:07,599 your one-three one? 481 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,400 In the second meeting, second one-on-one, what's your 482 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:10,960 one-three-one? 483 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,799 And you know it's starting to stick when you hear their reps 484 00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:15,599 talking about it. 485 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:18,960 So when it starts to cascade, that's when you know that it's 486 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:19,599 hooked. 487 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,160 But for me, it's it's not just deploying it, it's it's being 488 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,400 accountable to it and making it a part of your everyday rhythm, 489 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:27,279 just like reporting. 490 00:21:27,519 --> 00:21:28,960 There's no point in having CRM for it. 491 00:21:31,759 --> 00:21:34,000 SPEAKER_00: Or is there like reading that you assign out? 492 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,799 SPEAKER_01: If it's reading, you've lost the you've already 493 00:21:36,799 --> 00:21:37,119 lost a lot. 494 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:38,160 SPEAKER_00: All right, fair enough. 495 00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:38,480 SPEAKER_01: Right? 496 00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:40,319 And it it's it's gotta be quick. 497 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,440 SPEAKER_00: You you talked about the CRO principle book, and you 498 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,000 said you sort of open up with things that are important to 499 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:46,240 you. 500 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,359 What else is in there? 501 00:21:47,599 --> 00:21:48,240 SPEAKER_01: There's a lot. 502 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,720 Um, and I'm happy to walk through it at a later date. 503 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,880 But at the end of the day, number one, it's it's the things 504 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,359 that I value, like my pillars of success, right? 505 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,920 Like I value a blue car work ethic. 506 00:21:58,079 --> 00:22:01,680 Um, not in terms of like a rankless hierarchy, but I do 507 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,559 believe that we need to be able to zoom out and zoom in. 508 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,640 Um, I believe in fixing leading indicators and not focusing on 509 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:09,680 lagging outcomes. 510 00:22:09,839 --> 00:22:12,400 Um, I think that's something that a lot of people do wrong. 511 00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:16,880 They're they're always fixing symptoms and they're not healing 512 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:17,519 the problem. 513 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,599 So uh I'm really curious and tuned in on how I was one of the 514 00:22:21,599 --> 00:22:24,079 first questions I ask in my first one one one-on-one with 515 00:22:24,079 --> 00:22:26,319 managers is how do you differentiate a leading 516 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:27,839 indicator from a lagging outcome? 517 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,480 And give me examples of how that's represented in your 518 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:31,200 business. 519 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,920 And that's right out of the gate, you'll know it's not that 520 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,559 they're gonna be a fit or not, it's just where do I need to 521 00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:37,279 focus on them? 522 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,640 And I don't think a lot of leaders talk like that to their 523 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:40,880 team. 524 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,000 It's just what's your number? 525 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:42,960 Are you gonna hit it? 526 00:22:43,039 --> 00:22:43,599 What's the risk? 527 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:44,240 And they hang up with it. 528 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:45,279 SPEAKER_00: What deals are you committing? 529 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:45,519 Yeah. 530 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,599 SPEAKER_01: And it's like, that's not gonna make people 531 00:22:47,599 --> 00:22:48,160 better, right? 532 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,799 Like our job as leaders is to leave people better than we 533 00:22:50,799 --> 00:22:51,279 found them. 534 00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:55,200 And if if if you're not delivering this stuff and using 535 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,680 what how we talk, that's how we get talked to. 536 00:22:57,839 --> 00:22:59,599 When I go to a board meeting, the first question they're 537 00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:00,960 asking is how are the leading indicators? 538 00:23:01,039 --> 00:23:02,880 Do we have green shoots or is it not looking good? 539 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:06,079 So if we're gonna prepare them to be our successors, if we're 540 00:23:06,079 --> 00:23:09,759 creating the next lineup, why are we not applying the same 541 00:23:09,759 --> 00:23:11,839 philosophies that we're answering in the boardroom? 542 00:23:12,079 --> 00:23:14,079 They should be thinking about that in the terms of their 543 00:23:14,079 --> 00:23:14,319 world. 544 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,960 It's gonna make that transition so much easier as they move up. 545 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:17,519 unknown: Yeah. 546 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:19,279 SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny, just in the public 547 00:23:19,279 --> 00:23:22,160 markets, I mean, the leading indicators is the thing that 548 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:23,359 your stocks valued on. 549 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,680 It's not necessarily what you just did in the quarter, it's 550 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,200 what your you know go forward forecast is that you're based 551 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,480 on, not necessarily the past. 552 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,119 So great analogy uh to that. 553 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:37,440 Um, so you talked about um personal drivers of what 554 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:38,480 motivates people. 555 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,839 And I want to dig into this a little bit because I gotta 556 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:45,440 admit, like, and I'm sure this is uh was a learning for you. 557 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:49,599 It is so easy for me, Sean, to just go into a meeting and get 558 00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:50,319 right to the business. 559 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,400 Like, okay, let's talk about whatever the deal is. 560 00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:54,960 Okay, let's talk about whatever the subject of this call is, 561 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,680 like, let's dive in because we got work to do. 562 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,799 And I actually find it difficult to balance the like work we need 563 00:24:02,799 --> 00:24:06,319 to get done with like the questions I need to ask in order 564 00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:09,039 to get to know the individual better, in order to identify 565 00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,640 those personal drivers, and then change my management style in 566 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,559 order to create or align to the why, which could be an 567 00:24:16,559 --> 00:24:18,640 organizational why, it could be their why. 568 00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:20,480 Like it's a lot beyond. 569 00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:23,680 And so those are very easy words to say that like finding 570 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,759 people's personal drivers, finding what motivates them. 571 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,640 Like, I hear that and I'm like, yeah, yeah, people should do 572 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:28,799 that. 573 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,759 But man, for me, it's a like the road to doing that well feels 574 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:35,200 really unclear. 575 00:24:35,599 --> 00:24:37,920 What is some of the things that you've learned along the way to 576 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,119 be more effective at that? 577 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,000 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 578 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,359 By the way, like we're gonna have weeks and months and 579 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,200 quarters that we're great at it, and there's gonna be ones that 580 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:45,839 we just suck. 581 00:24:46,079 --> 00:24:48,240 And I'm always working on it. 582 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:54,880 Um but what I will say is would you agree that you likely touch 583 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,359 base with your managers every day to talk about deals and 584 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:57,680 progress? 585 00:24:57,839 --> 00:24:59,519 Would you say that's a safe statement? 586 00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:00,079 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 587 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:00,880 SPEAKER_01: Okay. 588 00:25:01,279 --> 00:25:05,759 So if you're gonna dedicate another 30 or 50 or hour block 589 00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:10,880 to talk about deals again for a one-on-one, that seems a bit 590 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:11,839 ridiculous. 591 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,119 So the first thing for me is, you know, one-on-one time, it's 592 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:18,079 not for us. 593 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:19,599 That's for them. 594 00:25:20,079 --> 00:25:20,880 That's their time. 595 00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:24,480 That's their dedicated time for us as the leadership team who 596 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,559 are managing a million things from PL to doing a forecast 597 00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:31,599 through 2030 to you know, talking about customer 598 00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:33,359 escalations to all the things. 599 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,559 So the first, I would say, priority is saving space for the 600 00:25:38,559 --> 00:25:41,119 individual, whether it's a rep, a manager, it doesn't matter. 601 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:42,079 That's their time. 602 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,200 And that that that time should be used as a sacred space to 603 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,640 share about best practices, whether they need more help, are 604 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:49,839 they getting what they need from you? 605 00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:51,200 Have they had any conflicts? 606 00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:53,920 I think that'll give an organic way where they know this is my 607 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:54,079 time. 608 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,519 Now, look, if they come and they're just fogging up a 609 00:25:57,519 --> 00:26:00,000 mirror, then you and I both know we're gonna go to the deals. 610 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,480 But as long as they know that that's the expectation, that 611 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,960 that's gonna be their time and their space, I think that's the 612 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:05,519 first thing. 613 00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:08,720 I think the second piece is like acting with integrity. 614 00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:10,960 I I and I'll give you a really good example. 615 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,039 I won't I won't say where, but there are places in my org where 616 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:18,799 I was fortunate enough to bring over some talent into my 617 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:20,640 organization from another department. 618 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,480 And within the first like two days, I met one of this, one of 619 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,720 these folks, and they were talking about their daughter and 620 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,640 that they were they were doing some stuff together. 621 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,920 And three days later, I I asked and followed up, like, hey, how 622 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:32,160 did that go? 623 00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:35,119 Like, I know you said you had XYZ with with that with your 624 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:35,519 daughter. 625 00:26:35,759 --> 00:26:39,359 And it was this moment of like shock of like, I didn't know you 626 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:40,640 were you were listening. 627 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,519 And then I was like, and what I didn't realize is their former 628 00:26:43,519 --> 00:26:46,559 leader, like on 10 different occasions, asked them if they 629 00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:50,880 had any kids, let alone doubling down on a question about the 630 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,039 kid, the name, the activity. 631 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,039 So back to like my first statement, like CRO playbook, 632 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,559 like authenticity. 633 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,519 And that's the thing again, it's like not a coachable thing. 634 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,839 And I'm not doing it to fill air, I actually care. 635 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,079 Like, what's I make it a priority to get to know my team 636 00:27:08,079 --> 00:27:09,759 and and what's going on with their life. 637 00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:12,480 And I think that's a big part of like how you do it is actually 638 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:13,039 meaning it. 639 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,039 Um and it and don't fake it. 640 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,839 And by the way, if you don't have the time or the capacity, 641 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,799 like my team knows, like I'll give them a shot across the bow. 642 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,880 Like, guys, this is gonna be an aggressive week. 643 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,920 I gotta get our forecast in, I got a board meeting, so I might 644 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:26,480 be brief. 645 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,759 It's not you, it's me. 646 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,880 Like, give me, give me this, like, save some space for me to 647 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,559 have that ability to be a little bit short. 648 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,079 We'll pick back up next week. 649 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,519 So having that open transparency, I think, Rick, is 650 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:38,319 it's important. 651 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,240 Every day is not gonna be a good one. 652 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,920 Um, and then I I would say like the last piece is like do 653 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,200 check-ins, right? 654 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,000 Like, uh, I don't know if you read the book um from uh from 655 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,519 from Ted Mat Dixon uh Jolt Effect, but they talk about when 656 00:27:51,519 --> 00:27:53,680 you're going through a sales cycle, you want to do these 657 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,319 pings with your client to like check how they're doing. 658 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,720 Why are we not doing that with our salespeople or with our 659 00:27:58,720 --> 00:27:59,519 leadership team? 660 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,839 It's like Rick, I know we've been running really hard this 661 00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:02,160 quarter. 662 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:03,279 How are you doing? 663 00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:05,519 Like, do you feel like we're communicating well? 664 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,119 Am I coming in too hot? 665 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:08,480 Am I being too analog? 666 00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:10,079 Am I getting too personal? 667 00:28:10,319 --> 00:28:12,079 Like, what's what's going on? 668 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:12,960 Just ping. 669 00:28:13,039 --> 00:28:16,880 Just do like that's a 30-second commitment of time that can save 670 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,640 you attrition, hiring someone else that may or may not suck, 671 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,359 onboarding them, time to value, all the things from a 30-second 672 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:25,759 question. 673 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,359 How hard is that really? 674 00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:30,640 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I find myself often asking, hey, what should I 675 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:31,920 be doing that I'm not doing currently? 676 00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:35,519 Just to random people, just to see if there's any ideas that I 677 00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:37,039 can kind of get out of there to get a lot of things. 678 00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:39,039 SPEAKER_01: Here's what I'll say, which has been an 679 00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:40,880 interesting lesson for me too. 680 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:48,160 I think we think offering help is a way to build trust. 681 00:28:48,799 --> 00:28:52,240 So I go to my my my product officer and I say, hey, 682 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:55,839 so-and-so, you know, I see you guys are getting ramped up on 683 00:28:55,839 --> 00:28:56,400 this product. 684 00:28:56,559 --> 00:28:57,440 How can I help? 685 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:57,920 Right? 686 00:28:58,079 --> 00:29:00,319 And you may think that's a oh and it is. 687 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:01,519 To some people, it is. 688 00:29:01,759 --> 00:29:07,519 What I've found is that deeper levels of trust are actually 689 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:09,359 built when you ask for help. 690 00:29:09,519 --> 00:29:12,799 When you ask for help, it's coming from a place of 691 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:18,720 vulnerability and it's giving credit to them that I I'm in I'm 692 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,000 trusting you to help me do something. 693 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,480 And especially if you're someone that's more senior than there, 694 00:29:24,559 --> 00:29:27,519 you're like, wow, like he's asking me for my opinion or he's 695 00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:28,240 asking me for my help. 696 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,279 Even though we have zero, we don't think about ourselves like 697 00:29:31,279 --> 00:29:31,680 that, right? 698 00:29:31,759 --> 00:29:33,839 We're going any other room, we're gonna watch a Chappelle 699 00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:34,960 show and laugh like an idiot. 700 00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:36,640 So we don't have that ego. 701 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,519 But for other staff levels, they think that we have all the 702 00:29:39,519 --> 00:29:39,839 answers. 703 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,640 What they don't know, and what was another big lesson I learned 704 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,759 like everyone thinks that in this boardroom, this mysterious 705 00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:47,359 boardroom, everyone is in there. 706 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,119 They're the keepers of all the information. 707 00:29:49,279 --> 00:29:51,200 Yeah, they got all the answers. 708 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:52,559 No one knows shit. 709 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:53,920 We're all trying to figure it out. 710 00:29:54,079 --> 00:29:58,400 Like we're all we're all doing the best we can with the data we 711 00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,680 have on a given day. 712 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,960 And a set group of examples and experiences. 713 00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:04,000 That is the reality. 714 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,319 Everyone's putting their pants on at the same time. 715 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,039 They're going home and they're getting screamed at by loved 716 00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:09,839 ones or kids. 717 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,960 They're cleaning up after their dog and they're just trying to 718 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,079 get through the week. 719 00:30:14,319 --> 00:30:15,279 That's the reality. 720 00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:16,720 SPEAKER_00: I love that reflection. 721 00:30:16,799 --> 00:30:20,160 It's like a lot of times that people think, hey, the offering 722 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,759 help or offering support is showing a sign that you care, is 723 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,000 showing a sign that you want to help and that will foster a 724 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:28,640 stronger bond. 725 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,680 When the counterintuitive reflection is like, sure, that's 726 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:31,759 good. 727 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,240 Don't, it's not, you're not saying don't do that, but you're 728 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,920 saying the real moments of trust and the real uh relationship 729 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,640 establishment comes when you are the one that asks for help, 730 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,960 that's showing the vulnerability that you don't have all the 731 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:43,440 answers. 732 00:30:43,599 --> 00:30:46,799 And when people feel like they're contributing to helping 733 00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:48,559 you, that's a stronger bond. 734 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,519 That's a pretty counterintuitive and interesting insight. 735 00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:53,119 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's helped. 736 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:53,759 It's helped. 737 00:30:53,839 --> 00:30:57,200 And again, for me, and you know, and you've known this, Rick, 738 00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:00,400 from the minute we met, like I there's not a lot of, I don't 739 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,400 want to say there's not a lot of layers to me, but like I'm a 740 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:03,039 WYSIWYG. 741 00:31:03,119 --> 00:31:04,240 Like what you see is what you get. 742 00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:05,839 That's just been my style. 743 00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:09,599 Um, my team knows if I'm if I'm going up and I'm gonna talk 744 00:31:09,599 --> 00:31:11,440 about something, I'm gonna present something, I'm not 745 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,119 looking at confidence monitors. 746 00:31:13,279 --> 00:31:16,000 Like, I if I don't believe it, I'm not gonna say it. 747 00:31:16,079 --> 00:31:18,240 That's also my career decisions and aspirations. 748 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:19,119 I need to believe. 749 00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:21,839 The reason I'm I'm where I am at Laterra is I believe in what 750 00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:22,160 we're doing. 751 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,160 I believe in our mission, I believe in our product, I 752 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,200 believe in our customers. 753 00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:28,160 And like you have to have that belief that transcends 754 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,279 everything, but it all comes back to authenticity, right? 755 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,400 Authenticity in what you're asking for, in the depth of 756 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,359 relationships you're building. 757 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:36,480 Are they surface level? 758 00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:40,000 Are they are they one inch deep and 20 feet wide? 759 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,759 All of that stuff is what builds a team of people that will run 760 00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:45,039 through walls for you. 761 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,799 Um, and that's what we're all trying to build. 762 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:47,519 We all want to do that. 763 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,519 SPEAKER_00: And that's what I was I was gonna segue that to 764 00:31:49,519 --> 00:31:49,920 motivation. 765 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,200 So it's like, hey, it's a one on the one hand, like uh getting to 766 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,200 know the people beyond their role is a big unlock and is a 767 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,079 differentiator in leadership, just of what the example you had 768 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,640 where somebody's asking somebody if they have kids 10 times, it's 769 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:03,839 like you don't listen. 770 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,680 Um, are there any other connect points of when you do sort of 771 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:08,559 get to know people? 772 00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:12,000 Is it the showing, is it the getting to know them and caring 773 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,440 as the way to foster motivation, or is there another step on that 774 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:16,000 bridge? 775 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,400 SPEAKER_01: I think the other step is, and this is going to be 776 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:18,960 obvious. 777 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,759 So for for you and for for all your subscribers, I hope this 778 00:32:23,759 --> 00:32:24,880 isn't obvious. 779 00:32:25,119 --> 00:32:27,519 You shouldn't be just reaching out when you need something, for 780 00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:28,079 God's sakes. 781 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:29,599 And I think that's the other thing. 782 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,119 I always save time in my calendar every day to reach out 783 00:32:33,119 --> 00:32:35,440 to cross-functional folks just to check in. 784 00:32:35,599 --> 00:32:36,640 Like, how are you? 785 00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:37,519 What's going on? 786 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:38,799 Like, how's your department going? 787 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:39,680 How's this person doing? 788 00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:43,200 Giving accolades, particularly those that are in hard jobs, 789 00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:46,960 like customer support, customer success, or marketing. 790 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:49,599 Like, there's so many parts of the business that are dealing 791 00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:51,279 with crap every day. 792 00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:55,200 And I think they're used to only people coming to them when they 793 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:55,839 need something. 794 00:32:56,079 --> 00:32:59,440 How nice is it when you get a pingrick and someone's just 795 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,680 reaching out to say, hey, like, how are you doing? 796 00:33:01,759 --> 00:33:04,000 Like, tell me what's going on, like, how's your team? 797 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,960 Again, like maybe here's here's something I could really use 798 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:07,759 your opinion on. 799 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:08,880 What do you think about this? 800 00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:11,200 I know you worked at this company for a while. 801 00:33:11,359 --> 00:33:14,960 I know you you spent you know six months working in Paris, and 802 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:17,519 you know, we're working this deal where we're just worried we 803 00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:21,039 may not be fitting the lexicon right in terms of how we're 804 00:33:21,039 --> 00:33:22,799 positioning the deal and the relationship. 805 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,960 Just going out and creating those connective tissues, it 806 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,160 shouldn't be, and I can't remember the name of the book 807 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,440 right now, but I actually saw it at an event I was at with HG uh 808 00:33:33,519 --> 00:33:37,119 later part of last year, but it was uh it was um it was 809 00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:42,000 formerly, I think, Obama's chief secretary um of the military, 810 00:33:42,079 --> 00:33:45,200 and he was talking about how if you look at an org chart, so 811 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,519 fascinating, if you look at an org chart, like the beginning of 812 00:33:47,519 --> 00:33:50,880 the org chart was like back at General Mills and then all the 813 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,240 forward motor companies. 814 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,319 And it as amazing as that is to create a structure, in the 815 00:33:56,319 --> 00:33:59,680 military as an example, it doesn't work because if you have 816 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,799 the SEALs here and you have the army here and you got the you 817 00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:06,000 know the Air Force over here and no one's communicating, it it 818 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,360 creates a breakdown in how they can possibly be collaborating. 819 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,360 And what you really want to do is create this network. 820 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,079 You want to create this intramesh network where all of 821 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:16,079 these connection points are talking to each other. 822 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:18,880 It doesn't mean, again, we're not trying to get rid of layers, 823 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,440 although I do think hierarchy can become more of a 824 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,599 problematic, particularly in large companies. 825 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,760 But at the end of the day, you want to create these 826 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,199 cross-functional signals that are really communicating at a 827 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,760 constant level, and that's what I encourage my managers to do. 828 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,920 So my managers and my VPs in leadership and in revenue, I'm 829 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,159 always encouraging them to spend time with product. 830 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,159 Go spend time with help desk support, um, with marketing, 831 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:43,440 with the finance team. 832 00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:47,519 When you create that connective tissue, it just makes for a much 833 00:34:47,519 --> 00:34:49,679 more collaborative environment, hands down. 834 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:50,639 And people learn. 835 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,559 Like you little, you learn things you don't know. 836 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:57,599 I wouldn't know a damn thing about Ebada and PL and how to 837 00:34:57,599 --> 00:35:01,519 manage my expenses and expense managers if I didn't get really 838 00:35:01,519 --> 00:35:04,719 nerdy with one of my other mentors, Valerini, who's my 839 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,559 former CFO, and now my current CFO. 840 00:35:06,639 --> 00:35:09,519 If you don't spend time with those people, even though they 841 00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:11,519 don't do what we do every day, right? 842 00:35:11,679 --> 00:35:14,719 This goes back to hiring people that have different experience 843 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:15,280 than you. 844 00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:17,519 You never know what someone's superpower is. 845 00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:20,159 And there's so much that you can learn from someone, regardless 846 00:35:20,159 --> 00:35:21,519 of what swim lane they're in. 847 00:35:21,679 --> 00:35:24,400 So blurring that line for me, even though it's provocative and 848 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,119 you're supposed to stay in your swim lane, for me, blurring that 849 00:35:27,119 --> 00:35:30,159 line has been tremendously impactful because it's made me 850 00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:32,880 capable of having productive conversations 851 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,679 cross-functionally, where I'm not just the sales guy. 852 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:36,800 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah. 853 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,079 I've I've I've been trying to do the same thing. 854 00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:44,159 It's hard to break out of the silo that you're in. 855 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,239 It's very easy to stay in the silo because there's tons to do 856 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:49,920 right within there, and it's all in your face. 857 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,000 It takes proactive effort to sort of go out, but the returns 858 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,440 on that, especially as you get higher in your level of 859 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,599 responsibility, are also very high. 860 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,599 Um, Sean, what's one thing that you've been either like recently 861 00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:07,039 learning or been thinking about um just to further your own 862 00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:07,679 leadership journey? 863 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,920 SPEAKER_01: Okay, I hate to do this, but I'm gonna use two of 864 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,280 the favorite vowels right now in the market, which is AI. 865 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:14,800 So I'm sorry in advance. 866 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:16,000 SPEAKER_02: That's okay. 867 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,719 SPEAKER_01: Look, I I've I was never resistant to it. 868 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,559 I wasn't because I anything that can make me smarter and work 869 00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:26,960 faster, I love. 870 00:36:27,599 --> 00:36:32,639 But I think there's a very real topic right now that no one's 871 00:36:32,639 --> 00:36:36,880 talking about, and I am, and I think it's really important, and 872 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,280 it's a little bit of that leaning into the empathy moment 873 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,119 again, that as more and more companies adopt AI, which they 874 00:36:43,119 --> 00:36:45,519 will and they should, because it's freaking awesome, even 875 00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:46,719 though it's a little bit terrifying. 876 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,239 Every business has, well, let me ask you the question first. 877 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,719 Would you agree that in your in your business, any of the 878 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,719 businesses you've worked in, you have a set of overperformers 879 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,440 that are always the first in, last out, and always go above 880 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:00,400 and beyond to do the work? 881 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:02,159 Would you say that there's those people? 882 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,239 SPEAKER_00: The needle movers exist in every organization. 883 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,239 SPEAKER_01: Needles movers exist in every organization. 884 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,480 Now, again, low contrary. 885 00:37:08,639 --> 00:37:11,039 Can you agree that there's also those that are doing the bare 886 00:37:11,039 --> 00:37:13,360 minimum, that are trying to fly below radar? 887 00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:16,719 We all love that phrase, and do exactly what they need to do to 888 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:17,519 do the job and leave. 889 00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:19,519 Do you would you agree that there's those folks as well? 890 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,320 SPEAKER_00: Core performers are also in every organization. 891 00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:23,119 SPEAKER_01: Great. 892 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,760 Here's where the challenge lies. 893 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:33,840 A overperformer might see AI and say, wow, this is gonna help me 894 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,480 send 100 more curated emails. 895 00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:39,760 It's gonna help me get in touch with 15 more prospects. 896 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,159 I'm gonna close$2 million more in revenue, and I'm gonna go do 897 00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:45,440 XYZ more, right? 898 00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:49,119 So they're gonna think of this as a holy cow, this is a force 899 00:37:49,119 --> 00:37:52,480 multiplier that I'm gonna do 10x more of what I'm already doing. 900 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,920 On the other side, if you're of the more reserved, I'm gonna do 901 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,360 the bare minimum, they may see this as a shortcut. 902 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,719 So I'm kind of phrasing it, are segments using it as a catalyst 903 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,000 or a crutch? 904 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,719 And the problem is there's always this tension between 905 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,119 these two groups of people, right? 906 00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:17,760 It's almost like the Roman Angela, you got the capulets and 907 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:18,239 the other group. 908 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,119 You always got this group that are very good in their own 909 00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:23,679 right, but the Montagues are always pushing back a little bit 910 00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:25,760 on the capulets and it's creating this really big 911 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:26,239 tension. 912 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,119 What AI is doing, Rick, is it's widening and accelerating that 913 00:38:31,119 --> 00:38:35,119 gap exponentially and creating tension within organizations and 914 00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:35,760 with people. 915 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,239 And what we have to decide as leaders is how do we bridge the 916 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:40,800 gap? 917 00:38:41,119 --> 00:38:46,320 Do we use this as an opportunity to say, as an underperformer or 918 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,079 as a crutch performer, the fact that you're not seeing this as a 919 00:38:50,079 --> 00:38:53,039 chance to accelerate your performance may mean that you're 920 00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:56,960 just not fit for purpose for what we're trying to build as a 921 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,480 fast moving organization? 922 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,519 Or does it mean that we're gonna redistribute the time that 923 00:39:01,519 --> 00:39:02,960 they're saving and to do other things? 924 00:39:03,119 --> 00:39:04,159 Maybe that could be a two. 925 00:39:04,639 --> 00:39:08,719 But someone's got to talk about it because it's real, it exists, 926 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:12,159 and the quality of work can be in question. 927 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,880 If I mean, how many times have you read an email that you've 928 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,239 gotten prospected to, Rick, that has that three double dash at 929 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,159 the bottom that you know came out of GPT? 930 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,079 It's like, come on, BDR, you can't just hit back, back, back, 931 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:24,960 comma. 932 00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:26,239 Like it's that hard. 933 00:39:26,559 --> 00:39:28,000 SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is not that hard. 934 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,639 SPEAKER_01: It's not that hard, but that's what I'm talking 935 00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:30,719 about. 936 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,360 Like that, me as a as a as a as someone who is a seller and a 937 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,519 picturer of software, if I see that hit my LinkedIn email or I 938 00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:41,119 see that hit my inbox, you're done. 939 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:42,000 You're dead to me. 940 00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:43,599 I'm not gonna pick up your phone. 941 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,199 Because it's okay if you use AI, but it should be to make your 942 00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:47,840 work better. 943 00:39:48,079 --> 00:39:49,360 It should be to make you work smart. 944 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,320 SPEAKER_00: And making it more impactful. 945 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,280 SPEAKER_01: Are we on an exciting? 946 00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:04,719 I've never been more pumped up about what we do because the 947 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,599 access to information and having productive conversations with 948 00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:12,800 doesn't matter the executive, doesn't matter the industry. 949 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,239 You go into perplexity, you type in what the conversation is that 950 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:17,920 you want to have, boom. 951 00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:21,519 You're uh you just got off your podcast, you heard me talk about 952 00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:24,800 Jolt Effect, you've never read it, you go get the PDF version, 953 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,920 you drop it into Notebook LLM, and you got a 15-minute podcast 954 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,920 on the way to go out and pick up your Chick-fil-A. 955 00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:36,079 Like the the pace of learning and enablement and just work 956 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,000 velocity, my God. 957 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,719 Like me and you aren't gonna even be able to keep up. 958 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,039 Like, thank God we're at the end of this because both of us have 959 00:40:43,039 --> 00:40:44,079 way too much gray hair. 960 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,159 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, part of this is uh, you're right, man. 961 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:47,679 There's not that much time left for us. 962 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,039 We'll see what happens to the rest. 963 00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:51,840 Um, but part of the reason I do this is to so foster the human 964 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:52,239 connection. 965 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,320 I mean, we do live in a world uh to doing that. 966 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,400 You bring a ton of energy, uh, Sean. 967 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,480 So thank you for joining today. 968 00:40:58,639 --> 00:41:02,400 We covered a lot of ground from just like being the super rep 969 00:41:02,559 --> 00:41:05,920 and dealing with that, the 131 framework to how to develop the 970 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,000 team, the to leverage an AI. 971 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:09,199 I couldn't appreciate it. 972 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:10,400 You bring a ton of energy. 973 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,559 I'm energized just by the conversation. 974 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,199 Um, if people want to find you, is LinkedIn the best way to do 975 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:15,360 it? 976 00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:16,000 SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. 977 00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:16,719 Happy to chat. 978 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:17,519 Anytime. 979 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:18,880 SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining, Sean. 980 00:41:19,039 --> 00:41:19,760 We'll talk to you soon. 981 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:20,480 SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Rick. 982 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,679 SPEAKER_02: Just be honest, Joker. 983 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,440 SPEAKER_00: Reflecting on the conversation we had with Sean 984 00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:33,280 Munafo, I just love the energy and passion that Sean has. 985 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,880 I think one of the reasons that we get along so well is that we 986 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:41,039 have a similar profile and a similar approach to our sales 987 00:41:41,039 --> 00:41:42,000 leadership journey. 988 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,840 And what's funny about that is Sean talked about purposefully 989 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,239 making an effort to not hire for that same kind of profile. 990 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,320 And when you have a global team, or even if you just have a large 991 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,000 team, that's an important learning that comes through 992 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,760 experience because we are naturally more attracted to 993 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,119 people that are more like ourselves. 994 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,400 But if we're going to succeed in a large organization, we need a 995 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,320 diversity of talent and perspective. 996 00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:11,599 And Sean learned that I'm not sure if I could get a position 997 00:42:11,599 --> 00:42:13,360 in Sean's organization. 998 00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:16,960 Um the second thing, Sean talked about the risks of being a super 999 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:17,199 rep. 1000 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,119 Um, the risk of as an early manager having forming a 1001 00:42:21,119 --> 00:42:25,679 dependency on your AEs, on yourself, because you know every 1002 00:42:25,679 --> 00:42:28,559 opportunity in the pipeline, you're helping the team close, 1003 00:42:28,639 --> 00:42:32,639 you foster a level of effort that forces a dependency on you 1004 00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:33,599 as the sales leader. 1005 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,280 Sean talked about not being able to go on vacation as an early 1006 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,559 sales leader and doing that as a badge of honor and learning 1007 00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:44,880 along the way that the way to form a high performing team is 1008 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,199 not to build that dependency, but rather to enable and expect 1009 00:42:49,519 --> 00:42:51,039 high performance on the team. 1010 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,880 We've talked on a pillar talk in the past about expectation 1011 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,320 setting as a way to deal with this, for example. 1012 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,960 And Sean uh described his one-three one framework as his 1013 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,519 approach to uh you know mitigating that dependency. 1014 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,960 Uh so the one in the one-three-one was you know 1015 00:43:11,199 --> 00:43:15,920 identifying the signal from the noise in the problem that is 1016 00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:18,800 existing in the deal or in the situation. 1017 00:43:19,119 --> 00:43:22,639 Um if you can actually focus in on the actual problem, now we 1018 00:43:22,639 --> 00:43:23,360 can work with that. 1019 00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:28,400 But then bringing three potential paths to solve the 1020 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,920 problem, and just that forces thinking, it forces problem 1021 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:32,320 solving. 1022 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,679 I view those things as like a muscle that needs to be trained. 1023 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,519 So a forcing mechanism of coming up with various ideas is really 1024 00:43:39,519 --> 00:43:39,679 good. 1025 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,639 And then finally, of course, making a recommendation and 1026 00:43:42,639 --> 00:43:46,719 instilling this throughout the organization is a great way to 1027 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,960 reduce that dependency on the leader and build problem solving 1028 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,079 and thinking into the team. 1029 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:53,840 It was really interesting to learn that. 1030 00:43:54,159 --> 00:43:56,480 And I think just a final takeaway, you know, Sean's 1031 00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,559 thinking about AI and the impact on rep performance, making super 1032 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,960 reps even more super and core performers even more core. 1033 00:44:05,039 --> 00:44:09,679 And so the distance between you know good and great seems to be 1034 00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:10,239 widening. 1035 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,280 And that's uh something we all could potentially think about, 1036 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,920 how that'll impact our go-to-market moving forward. 1037 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:17,039 Thank you to Sean. 1038 00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:18,960 Really appreciate Sean joining. 1039 00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:22,400 I want to thank Ari Smolin for producing, Sons of Summer for 1040 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,000 the tunes, and thank you, listener. 1041 00:44:24,159 --> 00:44:25,599 We'll see you next time on Public. 1042 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:41,360 SPEAKER_02: Just be honest, in me like a joke, I can't shake, I 1043 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:42,000 can't quit.