Leadership Is Worthless. Leading Is Everything with Dr. Thom Mayer

Speaker A: But trust is failing. Burnout is rising.

Speaker B: Future leader. I think that's one of the most toxic things you could say to someone. The fact of the matter is, you know, I say that leadership is worthless because it's just what we say and anyone can say anything. But leading is priceless because it's what we do all day, every day, every single person. Today, I am a leader. The question is, how will I lead?

Speaker A: What does it feel like when onboarding, payroll, compliance, and even IT access all through one platform? It feels like everything, everything finally works together and HR finally has room to scale. Deal brings global people operations into one place. So new hires start strong, workflows, stay compliant, and teams move faster. See it in action at d e l.com nickdayhr hello and welcome back to the HR LMD podcast. Now, right now, everyone is talking about leadership, but trust is failing. Burnout is rising. And when pressure hits, many organizations still don't know who's actually leading. So has leadership become something we talk about rather than something we do well? Today's guest believes leadership itself is worthless, but leading is priceless. And after leading through nine, 11 NFL medical emergencies and training doctors in Ukraine, he's earned the right to challenge everything we think we know about leadership. And actually, this is a guest I've had on the show before, and his insights were so valuable, I just had to bring him back. I'm going to introduce him in just a moment, but before I do, welcome back to the show. Uh, here we try to bring you the latest insights and conversations with the pioneers who are shaping the future of work. If you're new, please do remember to click subscribe or follow. Uh, and welcome Back to the HR LND podcast, Dr. Tom Mayer. Now, Tom is a physician, a crisis leader, a best selling author, and one of the world's leading voices on leadership under pressure. Since his last appearance on this show, Tom has released the paperback edition of his bestselling book, Leadership is worthless, but leading is priceless. And that's what we're going to be talking about today. What does it actually mean to lead when it matters most? Without further ado, Tom, welcome back to the HR LND podcast. How you feeling?

Speaker B: I am great. And Nick, it's an honor to be back. It was an honor to have been on the first time and, uh, really appreciate the chance to have a conversation with you and learn from you again.

Speaker A: Well, I'm super excited to have you back. I really enjoyed our last conversation and this time I'm going to dive straight in for those Interested in finding out Tom's views on the words human resources. If you want to find out more about the HR LND vault, go and check out the first episode. I will put a link straight through to that in the show notes of this one. But today I don't want to sort of, uh, I want to focus in on what leadership really means. So let me come to you straight away, Dr. Tom. Like, when you first joined the show, we spoke extensively about crisis leadership. But since then, we're. What have you observed about leadership that concerns you the most today?

Speaker B: Concern is twofold. One is we're always in crisis or we feel that we're in crisis. We live, as we all know, in the age of electrons. You know, things move fast, information moves fast, and therefore, people are put into situations where change is all around them. Uh, most people don't mind change. They mind being changed. And so how do we get their voice in to, uh, be able to do it? And the thing that concerns me, that's just the milieu in which we live. Not going to push back on it. It's just a fact, I think. And the problem I have is that our educational systems, our, uh, organizations, our teams, and often our families are set up in a very hierarchical fashion, implying that if I say, nick, you're a future leader. Future leader. I think that's one of the most toxic things you could say to someone because it implies, well, I'm a leader, but you not so much. Maybe someday. The fact of the matter is, you know, I say that leadership is worthless because it's just what we say. And anyone can say anything. That's not going to help in the midst of, uh, a real or perceived crisis. But leading is priceless because it's what we do all day, every day, every single person. So everyone is a leader. I, uh, get the question often, you know, do you think anyone can be trained to be a leader? And I say, absolutely not. They're already a leader. Yes, they can be trained to be a better leader. But every single mom is every bit as much a leader as the CEOs that I frequently speak to. So my concern is helping people realize, you know, the answers are not above us in organizations, teams, or life. They're within and among it. So the leader you're looking for is you, in that we have to drive home. And I don't think there's any end to that journey of continuously reinforcing that to people.

Speaker A: I love that. And I know we discussed about that in some detail in the last time we Met as well. I like the idea that how we do anything is how we do everything and how we lead ourselves. We lead ourselves every single day. But in your response, you mentioned the word hierarchical. And I do feel that people often view leadership as something where, you know, you need to have a hierarchical structure for it to work. Number one, there needs to be people or things to lead. But also, I would argue slightly differently that when it comes to leadership, the most effective leaders that I've worked with or spoken to are people that actually are able to get people to follow them rather than do things because they've been asked to do them. And I think we're in a bit of, uh, an inflection point at the moment about what leadership really is in the current world of work. Because we've got a lot of cultures clashing. We've got different demographics now, globalized workforces. How are you seeing the ethos of leadership shift in the current world of work?

Speaker B: Well, I think, to your point, highly effective leaders, uh, you know, I talk about the difference between the C suite and the we Suite and how powerful the we suite is, doesn't mean that the C suite is not powerful. It doesn't mean that the CEO is not a critical person in the organization. But it does mean that their job is different than many hierarchical organizations imply that they should be, which is to say the team. Okay, here's our direction. Fine with that. Here's our vision. Fine with that. Here's how, what I want you to do, 1, 2, 3, 4. And when you finish that, come back and I'll tell you what else to do. And I'll tell you what you did wrong. Not so good with that ladder piece. The idea that you're going to empower your team and every team, every organization, particularly any service organization that I've ever seen that was successful, understood and embraced empowerment to help people understand. We have faith and confidence in you. Because, as I've said, and we talked about last time, innovation, critical. But it doesn't occur at the speed of genius, intelligence or creativity. It, uh, occurs at the speed of trust. And if people don't feel empowered and trusted to go out and do the best they possibly can, making failure their fuel along the way, but not being second guessed by the C Suite people in the corner office in that regard. So every team member is a leader. Lead yourself, lead your team.

Speaker A: So again, I want to dive into that a little bit more. I think everything you say, I always end up, you know, right on the end of it. I love listening to the way that you structure leadership and M. I think our listeners are going to feel the same as we go through this episode. But I'm intrigued to know the role that you think vulnerability plays in leadership, because there's. Historically, I think we've been almost given a narrative where it's dangerous for a leader to show vulnerability. It's, you know, I think sometimes people confuse authenticity with vulnerability as well. I think the two different things, both probably very important in the role of leadership. But I'd interested to know how you see those things. You mentioned the word failure there, and someone once said to me that fail or the acronym fail is first attempt in learning. And it's really important to show your team that you're willing to fail, but also that you've learned from the failure. We're not just failing without trying to take the learnings from it. And we're trying to evolve the process as well. But to do that, we've got to be quite vulnerable. Teams are often looking up to us to show them the way, assuming that we always know which way that is. And of course we don't. Sometimes, I don't want to use the word winging it, but sometimes we are discovering it as we go along and trying to use the best we can with the knowledge we have to take the best path forward. But you have to be vulnerable in order to share that with your team. So how do you see sort of the role of vulnerability and the role of authenticity tying into the modern leaders we see the world now?

Speaker B: Well, it's a great question, and stick with me from the previous time. You know, I was both a linebacker and a theology major, so kind of a, uh, demonic combination right there. But I think it's important to kind of step through and almost like a syllogism. Socrates is a man. All men are mortal, therefore Socrates is mortal. So my first postulate is we're all leaders, and leaders is defined in action. So leading equals action. And that creates culture. So that's a linear syllogism, which is critically important. So all day we're creating our culture within the culture of the organization. And we have to understand that completely. You know, when I went to The Pentagon on 9 11, that was in 2001, as you know. And I was asked at the same, in the same year, a month earlier to become the medical director of the NFL Players association or Fast Forward. I, uh, go to Ukraine and see patients and trained doctors over there. There's no manual. You don't show up and they hand you a Manual. They don't even give you a YouTube to watch. It's we trust you go at it. So if the first postulate is everyone on the team is a leader leading their part of the team, they're part of the organization, and they're part of the family, the question is not, are you a leader? It is, what kind of leader will you be, number one. So, as I said earlier, you know, let's eliminate the term someday wistful, worthless word and embrace today. Today, I am a leader. The question is, how will I lead? So, as it turns out, if I'm right about that, and I'm passionately convinced that I am, then when that door is opened, something flies out that door that can never come back again. And that's a victim's mentality, the sense that something is always happening to me or to my team or to my whatever. Fill in the blank. You can't have a victim's mentality. If you embrace the fact that we're all leaders leading the best we can in the circumstances that we have, there's no one to blame. If the answers are not above us, but within and among us, and the leader we're looking for is you, then victim mentality goes. Now, what does that mean for vulnerability? Like, I'm a massive fan of Brene Brown's, and I think the original work that she did and the work that she's done on, call it a combination of vulnerability and imposter syndrome, totally embrace that. But that's not the same as a victim's mentality. That's simply understanding that we are vulnerable. So in comes this other corollary that's so critical, making failure your fuel. My guys in the NFL, uh, the players that I represent, you know, break down film, and you'd think they're sitting there whooping about the successes. There's a little of that, but it's mostly breaking down what went wrong and how to get it right next time. Even on a scoring play, a touchdown, the edge rusher almost got by me. I'm the left tackle, you know, I need to step back faster, get my hand up faster, details like that. So all those pieces to me fit in to the idea that vulnerability and imposter syndrome are absolutely a part of the concept of every person is a leader. Lead yourself, lead your team. And it loops in with making failure your fuel. And understanding that success is pure, 100% unadulterated success is simply don't exist in our lives. We can always, always get better. So that may have been A long way around it. Uh, we'll say a word about authenticity. I'm working on a newsletter on that right now. It's, uh, like many of the concepts that you and I talk about and certainly the ones I write and talk about, there's a bit of a contrarian sense in there. Leadership is worthless. First of all, people think, oh, uh, just another leadership book. Well, it's a lot of different things, but it's not a leadership book. When I say leadership is worthless, authenticity becomes a, uh, fascinating one because we want. Does it mean integrity, integral, an integrated view, and acting on that view in ways demonstrable to ourselves and demonstrable to the people that are around us? I'm good with that level of authenticity. I worry a little bit about, you know, hey, this is my authentic self. And yet I might think, or you might think, well, if that's your authentic self, that's mean spirited, it's snarky, it's, you know, privileged. You get to shoot out on over the weapon of mass distraction, your iPhone. Any negative comment that you want? Well, I didn't feel like the kind of authenticity that we're looking for. So I think we have to look at the content of the authenticity to be able to say, does that reflect in a kind, positive, proactive, helpful way, or is it meant to degrade and pull other people down? Does that make sense?

Speaker A: Yeah. You know what? I love the response. I'll tell you for why you, um, won't know this, Dr. Storm, but I'm writing my book, my second book called the Leadership Pivot. So I'm really interested in this subject matter. And I also often think when someone says, I'm being authentic in this moment or this is my authentic view, I always think that that's the most inauthentic thing we can say. Because if you're being authentic, it comes from within. I always think if someone labels it, it's like, I'm going to be honest with you. You mean you weren't being honest before? I always think you have to label what you're being. There's a level of inauthenticity in the statement which makes it kind of, uh, a contrarian term. But that was just my personal view. I'll share a little bit here. What I thought was really interesting in your response, and obviously you relate it to the NFL. You know, you mentioned Bernie Brown, I'll mention Simon Sinek in the Infinite Game. The idea here that often when we're in that moment of failure, I always say to my team, or the people I'm working with.

Speaker C: How do we know?

Speaker A: We don't know it's a failure yet. Right. And if you look at the hero's journey in every kind of blockbuster movie, there's always the moment where the thing breaks or you miss the pass or the goal gets scored. But by the end of the movie, that learning journey is what makes you score the winning goal, win the cup, whatever. We have to go through that process to get the end result. And often we don't know yet if you've given away a penalty, you've given away a goal, you scored an own goal in soccer, whatever. We don't know how the rest of the game is going to play out. To know at that moment if it's success, failure, or indifference. And it's often we have, um, an obsession, I think, to try and label things in the moment. And I want to come back to you that a little bit because you talked about living for today. That's kind of in the moment as well. But also, do you feel that, particularly within the world of business, we've become a little bit obsessed with leadership as an identity? Do we need to have leadership as an identity, or do we need to be approaching leadership more as a behavior?

Speaker B: Well, I think, you know, leadership is an identity, uh, specifies a location, and that's all, you know, the corner office, CEO of a company. CEO of a company, whatever it might be, the behavior within that vicinity, that zip code, that location is what interests me in terms of how does that serve others, including the people. You know, I'm a huge fan of Robert Greenleaf. Servant, leadership, servant first and leading second. And I think it's a model that absolutely makes sense. And, you know, so that ability, when you talk about human resources to me, can I confidently assure somebody who's coming into my organization, you will have been a better person for having been here? We are going to invest in you, in your talent. I see Chief Talent Officer. Well, I'd like to see Chief Talent Development Officer. I see Chief People Officer. Well, I'd like to see Chief People Development Officer. Are we truly. Do we wake up in the morning and say, you know, if I'm the head of hr, is it my goal and role to make people better as they serve our customers, clients, in my case, patients? And, you know, I think too often the focus is on metrics and not on transactional, transformational ways in which we can deal with each other and become better people as we serve others.

Speaker A: With that in mind, then I'm going to ask you because actually, uh, obviously for those haven't listened to the first episode, I'll give a very brief introduction to your background, Tom. But you've had to, I would say in a traditional sense, step up as a leader at ah, many, many sort of critical times, times which other people may never have the opportunity to step up to maybe, but certainly you have done and you've worked in some very high pressure environments. I wanted to take the conversation in a moment into the world of AI and whether or not AI is shrinking the leadership gap or whether it's expanding it. And I've got a question I want to ask you, but I think it'd be really handy first just to ground your expertise and some of the crisis incidents that we're talking about here and where I guess sometimes you've had to discover what kind of leader you are because sometimes we think we're one thing. When crisis happens, we can born freeze on the act or not giving any responsibility here, depending on how we respond. Because we often don't know until the moment you are someone who has been able to respond and remain calm. And my perspective play a phenomenal role in really showing what true leadership is. But one thing, just ground it. Let us know a little bit more about some of your experience.

Speaker B: Well, as I said, you don't get a manual, it doesn't tell you what to do. You know, I'm, I'm an emergency physician. Sports medicine document happens. I have my boards in pediatric emergency medicine as well. There are clearly evidence based ways to approach all of those things. So that if I'm at the Pentagon and I have to resuscitate a patient, I almost don't have to think, at least I don't have to think between A and Z, you know, comes to double A and triple Z, you know, really deep in the weeds, then that's a different story. You know, lots of literature out there about different styles and I've learned from all of them, uh, to varying degrees. But the fact of the matter is when the scatological stuff hits the metaphorical fan, and it always will in people's lives because we live in crisis and that's the nature of things. There's so much change and innovation going on that, you know, having the courage, and it takes courage, bravery and tenacity to speak truth to power. I know, I've been there. And I can tell you that when you speak truth to power, it irritates power. Why? Because power wants to feel like, hey, we're good, you know, we really great. We're the best thing in the, uh, universe. Best thing since sliced bread and night baseball and stepping in to say, yeah, but it could be better. Yeah, but here's a problem here that my patience, my player, patients in the NFL need to have done better. And that's why I get back circle back to the hierarchical I'm right because I'm the boss. Hmm, interesting m way to look at things, you know, wasn't a great way to educate doctors in my opinion. And so I think we can apply evidence based protocols to leading in times of crisis as well. To say what works and what doesn't. And you know, calling someone a, uh, failure because a project didn't go as well as they thought, or maybe even failed to me is morally bankrupt and completely ineffectual in building an organization that understands that there are always elements of failure in everything that we do. We should embrace that. We should talk about how to use those failures as fuel to power us and to power our organization.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Uh, you mentioned what three words you mentioned tenacity, bravery and courage. For me. And this is through my own research in the book that I'm writing. I'll be interested to get your take here. But I think there's a distinct difference between bravery and courage. I think bravery is for me, how I interpret it to be. And it came to me actually. Funnily enough, I tell a short story myself. I was on a rock face in a mountain marathon a few years ago and um, a colleague of mine, a special services trained guy I was racing with as my partner, said, nick, let's. We'll save some time if we cut up this part of the mountain, right? I don't rock climb. We had 20 kilos on our back. I've got a family at home. But in. But I made the brave decision of saying, sure, let's go for it. As we start sort of orienteering our way around this clear face, I realized I put myself in quite a predicament. And I ended up sort of 80 foot up, uh, one way back on my back. Having to go over this ledge. It was raining, didn't help. And I realized in that moment 8 I was petrified.

Speaker C: B.

Speaker A: You know, I was stuck to this rock. And I said to him, actually said the words, I've got a family. What am I doing? And I realized then that the courageous decision would have been to say no, that's the one that's in line with my values, my virtues, my family, my love, all the things that come with it. But the Brave decision was to say yes, because I didn't want to let the person down in front of me. It was a hero's decision. And almost we often talk about the two things being the same, but I think the courageous leader is the one that operates in line with their virtues, their values, what's important to them. And you can be both. There's nothing wrong with bravery providing. You know, sometimes we need to be brave in the moment. If something happens and crisis hits, bravery sometimes will switch in. You need to be able to respond in the moment. So I'm not saying one is positive, one is negative, but I think they're different. But I'd love to get your perspective on how you see those three things showing up in a leadership capac capacity. You mentioned tenacity as a third thing. How would you appropriate those terms with leadership in the way that you define them?

Speaker B: Well, I think I use bravery, courage and tenacity distinctly because they're highly related, but they're not the same thing. I agree with the formulation that you just gave. I mean, there is a bravery. When he said, let's go up this way, you were brave to do that, but that's because you had trust in him, trust that he knew what he was doing and that he was not going to put you in a situation knowing that you have a family that would compromise you in any way. So I got that courage. Of course, I've been shot at in Ukraine and a few other places. My son is a marine infantry or was a marine infantry officer. Two highly kinetic tours in Afghanistan. So I don't compare being in battle with leading a whole lot. For that reason, even when my NFL players say, I'm a warrior, you know what? I respect you, but I understand the distinction. My point is that courage. You talk to anybody who's been in leading in times of crisis, or particularly those police officers, uh, tactical medics and soldiers and Marines, and they'll tell you courage doesn't consist of having no fear. It's acknowledging that fear.

Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah.

Speaker B: And saying I will move forward in spite of that fear because I need to be able to do it for the good of the mission, for the good of other people in some way. And again, as you know, uh, for those in battle, it's done as often, and this is through the century, if you look at the ancient Greeks, all the way through the most recent wars, it's why do you do it? You do it for the guy next to you. You do it the person that's depending upon you. And so I think that's where courage comes from. Tenacity. I think, you know, Oscar Wilde said something to the effect that a fanatic is someone who, when he loses his sense of direction, redoubles his efforts. And we've certainly all run into folks like that in life, but it does take us, tenacity to in the face of fear, in the face of have I made the right decision to be able to say yes, I have, therefore to stick to it, regardless of how difficult it is at the time. And so that's why, to me, those three things are critically related, but not the same thing.

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Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I love those distinctions. As a fan of theology, uh, and words and history, you might like this. I discovered this in my own research and I'll share it because for me it was kind of one of those moments that you just kind of capture and realize, I don't know, I'm quite a fan of etymology of words, the history of words. And I looked at the word fear. It goes to the origins of the word fear. It comes from the Indo European origin of the word per. Uh, and per means to risk, to try or to attempt something worth attempting. And for me, I love that because it means that courage is embedded in the word fear itself. So when you talked about your son and you know, it's having the, the courage to, even despite the fear, to go and do it anyway, you know, fear sometimes is a signal. There's a threshold worth crossing. And I love the fact that within the origins of that word, courage actually is embedded within it. And we don't, we often see them as being polar opposites, but actually they're the part of the same thing. I think you gave a really good example of that when you talked about your son. So I wanted to share that because it had a little bit of a. I don't have a spine tingling moment when you're talking about it because I'll see you all come together. It was great.

Speaker B: I like you. I love etymology, that the origin of words, what did it originally mean? So as you know, courage and I pronounce it that way intentionally. From the French cour, heart, you know, the heart of the map. And I think that mean. How eloquent is that? I'll give you another example. The we often use the term to articulate. Well, that comes from builders, joiners, artisans, and articulation is a joint that is smooth, fit and strong. And so how poetic that we speak of articulating ideas as we're doing here. In your case, very effectively. In my case, not so much. But it has that. Anytime someone says that, I always think about, you know, the joint between things. And how do you make that a strong, lasting joint? By articulating concepts, ideas and actions.

Speaker A: I, uh, love that. I'm so glad we had that conversation. I'll take that and put it in my bank of etymological words because it's a fascination of mine. I've never thought, look at the word articulate. So now, uh, I'll add that to my register. But I mentioned that I wanted to take it to the world of AI and there was a deliberate reason for doing that. I think for me there's a risk, I think of a lot of people working leadership roles. I know you don't have, you know, if you're in there, that's the hierarchical structure, so to speak. You don't have to be in one. But you people are starting to rely on AI to give them the leadership journey for them. I have an issue at work. I want to know how to handle it. I'm going to put it into my language learning model. Give the response. I'm going to deliver what the AI tells me to deliver. Now, of course, this starts to challenge whether or not it's the right thing. I know that some of the research by Harvard actually I've studied suggests that there is no perfect makeup of what is the perfect leader. You know, that we think that there is, but everyone's different. It depends on scenario, location, the situation, all those different things. So the idea of going to AI to give you a response to a particular situation, I think is. I don't know, it's. It's quite jarring for me that people are going to be doing that. So I want to ask the question where, because it in theory comes back with quote, unquote, the perfect response, or what people believe to be the perfect response. Do you think that AI used in that context is widening or growing the leadership gap? Or actually is it providing a tool for people to shorten it because it gives them more tools in their toolbox to utilize, maybe when they are unconfident or when they don't know what to do? And I'd just be intrigued to get your response.

Speaker B: Well, it's a fascinating question in some respects, is the question of our times. And as you might guess in theology and linebacking, the answer to any intelligent question is it depends in this case, what does it depend upon? And so if you take artificial intelligence, I believe, as you may know, that there's a difference between data, knowledge and wisdom. And so I posed this question to some of the best minds in AI in the world. Past chair of the board of NASA, the editor of New, uh, England Journal of Medicine, AI. I'm working, doing some work with Palantir right now, which as division Palantir for hospitals. And when you ask those folks, can AI get us to wisdom? Every single person has told me separately, not in some panel or group discussion that can't even get us to knowledge. What it does do is give us a tremendous amount of data from the large language model from which it is generated. And it's important to remember the genesis of where that came in. Not garbage in, garbage out necessarily. But that's a metaphor if someone wants to use it. Is how good is the language going into the large language model? So what does that mean? I think there absolutely are some people that are feeding things into AI from a leadership standpoint, from a leading standpoint. Here's the problem. What should I do? And taking it as rote, taking it as not just knowledge, but wisdom. In my view, that's a mistake. In my view that's a mistake, because I think the other end is where I try to be. I don't always succeed, but I try to be, and that is to be as knowledgeable as I can. Because the question you feed in to AI says volumes about what you're going to get out on the other side. And the more focused, intelligent and specific the language you use, the better result you'll get. But when I do get the result, it helps me understand. Okay, here's a landscape of taxonomy, etymology, ways in which the words are put together. Here's some examples of the actions that might have been done. But it's still up to me and my teams to be able to say, based on what we've learned, where do we go? Where do we put our efforts? And that's the wisdom. You know, Kevin, our Marine infantry officer son, our middle son, when he was about 8 years old, I came home from work one night and he was doing his homework, and he was very frustrated, I could tell. I said, kevin, you know, are you having trouble with your homework? Yes, dad, what is it? It's English homework. I said, would you like to know my input? Because I never say, you know, I'm going to help you. I say, would you like? And he said, yes. So I read the passage and I said, kevin, here's what it says. And he throws his pen down, he looks at me and goes, dad, I know what it says. What does it mean? You know, out of the mouths of babes, as they say. And if we can use AI to help us understand what does it mean, then I think we're in a really, really good position if we say, uh, hey, A.I. told me to do it. You know, try. Try that in court someday when you transgressed a law or something like that. Because AI said to do it. I'm sure we're not far from that. Or perhaps that's already happened.

Speaker A: Well, uh, don't use the word articulate. I think you articulated that very well. It brings into to thought for me or to interview, actually, where I can be really powerful. And I hadn't really considered it until you gave your response. But I was thinking if there was a challenge, you would come with a different response to that challenge than I would. Now. We don't know which response can have the most effective outcome until we see the outcome of the result. We're trying to. Whatever it is, we're trying to fix. But, uh, you mentioned the word tenacity earlier. And I would say persistence is trying to solve the challenge with the same approach every single time. Tenacity is trying to fix the problem with multiple approaches. And I think when it comes to AI, we're only enough. Maybe Einstein, you may better quote me with the correct source. But the idea that you can't solve a problem with the same thinking that created it. And when it comes to AI, we're pulling on thoughts already in existence. We're not pulling on new thoughts or new ways or new ideas of how we can overcome a particular challenge. Why I think the human element's really important. What it brought into focus for me, and I hadn't realized this was going to happen, but it came from your responses. AI can be really powerful as having that third lens. So you and I could come up with a response. AI may come up with a third. And that gives us another tenacious approach to go, hey, we don't know which one's going to be the most effective. But I think if we look at AI going it's another perspective. It doesn't necessarily mean because it's come from AI, it's the right one or the most effective one. Because AI can't understand all the, all the nuance within a particular human based challenge that might be there, but it might give you one you haven't thought about before. I think that diversity of perspective maybe where we can really use it to shorten that leadership gap. I am very concerned personally that at the moment it's widening it because we're using it as a single source of truth. And as you said, that prompt, uh, two quick ones.

Speaker B: One comes from m my background and obviously if you're a theology major, you're going to do a lot of logic, symbolic logic, uh, all kinds of different logic. And so when you begin to look at an issue or problem, I'm always interested in this fascinating dynamic and I love dynamic tensions because I think they're everywhere in our lives. That dynamic tension between convergent thinking, pulling things together, focusing if you will, versus divergent thinking, getting as many opinions as possible and teasing things out. And to me, the beautiful intersection of uh, that dynamic tension is when I'm trying to solve a problem, when I'm not sure what I'm going to do, particularly leading in times of crisis. I want to be as divergent as I can. I was that way at the Pentagon. I wanted to talk to everybody because my job was to keep people safe in that building, to be able to get in and either rescue people or recover people. That takes divergent thinking. But there comes a point when it's time to make a decision to say we're going to go here as opposed to there. That becomes convergent thinking, taking that divergence, that uh, broad range of input from many, many people and being able to focus it and say in this situation at this time with this team. So there's a problem with AI because they don't know your team. And I'll give you a very simple example. If you talk to Coach K, which I have, he was very kind in writing the lead marketing material quotes for my book, he'll tell you every team is different. He doesn't have an offensive philosophy, he doesn't have a defensive philosophy. Each year and with nil now, it's often one and done for the big stars. He's got to look at the talent he's got and say, okay, what can this team do to win? And AI does not have that ability. At least it doesn't have it right now. And that's why I say, yes, it's hugely helpful on divergence being give me as many possible ideas, even solutions. But I'm going to have to pick based on the team that I've got to be able, um, you can say that I ought to be able to duck a basketball on a 10ft goal and tell me how to train to do it and all that. It ain't going to happen. I mean, it almost didn't happen when

Speaker A: I was, I've been living this experience. I don't know if any people stateside are Tottenham Hotspur fans or Premier League soccer fans, right? But I'm a Tottenham fan and we brought in a manager who brought in his style of play that simply didn't fit the players that we had completely turned upside down. And, uh, the sixth richest club in the world, actually, I think Certainly the top 10 richest club in the world almost got relegated, would have cost us about £300 million. We have a wage bill that's off the scale and all because we had, we have an unbelievable talent at our club. You bring a manager in with set ideas before they really understand the strengths of your squad, it's doomed to fail no much, no matter how much talent you've got in that squad, right? And I think that was where ultimately he lost his job and we almost got relegated. And we've changed around, but the reason this hits home for me is the new manager that's come in, the guy called Deserbi, uh, an Italian manager has turned around and said, look, I don't know what kind of manager I'm going to be yet because he keeps getting asked, what are you going to be like? He's like, I need to learn the players first, once I know the strengths and the style of the players, then you can ask me the question. I'll tell you what kind of manager I'm going to be. And I think for me, it's a breath of fresh air. It's what we needed. But I think it's so interesting if we go in with such a dogmatic attitude that this is what leadership is, this is what's going to work, and yet the culture of your organization can actually. Which can change beneath your feet. Right? We think we know a culture of a company and suddenly the culture changes for multiple reasons. And sometimes you have to evolve with that culture. From a recruitment perspective, when I get a new requisition, I'll say to a client when they say to me, nick, I need someone who's a perfect culture fit. Why do you want someone that fits? Now you want something going to evolve your culture. Now what is, um, the kind of person you need in your business is going to take you to the next level rather than keep you where you already are. And every time I say that to a hiring manager, they're always like, I've never thought about it that way. Okay, let me come back to you and I'll give you a new description with the things we actually need. It's going to take it forward. Uh, for me, it's obviously quite an obvious response because I'm working in this space. But if we don't question the things we do every day, we never really know where we're going to go or who we're going to be in terms of upper coming. Right. Whether that's an organizational culture or not. I, uh, know that you really delve into this, into your book. So I should probably come back to you, take that my thought process further because I know you'll evolve it yourself because you're brilliant in this space. But also let us know a little bit more about your book as well for listeners that might be interested in it, in hearing more.

Speaker B: We actually was asked to do it. I think all the great things that happened to us in life, we're invited. I was invited to go to the Pentagon. I was invited to become the medical director of the nflpa. I was invited to be the incident commander for inhalational Anthrax. I was invited to Ukraine and other things that have happened. And so I was invited and the invitation went like this, Doc, you've done a lot of different things in a lot of different environments over a long period of time on the world stage. Have you learned things from that, that you think other people need to know. Now, that's different than saying, well, I want to write a book.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, I've already written 24 of them. I didn't need to write a 24. So, uh, I like the book that you're working on. I'd love to read it. I'll be happy to provide marketing quotes. Anything I can do to help.

Speaker A: That'd be amazing. Thank you.

Speaker B: I love the work that you do. You know, you begin to look at it that way and say, what is it uniquely about my experience that could be helpful to other people? And, you know, the central thesis is just that, which is leadership is worthless because this isn't just another leadership book. When I say to large audiences, and I speak to large audiences all the time, and I say, it was 50,000 books on Amazon alone with leadership in the title, how many of you have read them? Guys, raise a hand. If I'm in the right setting. How many of you have a favorite book, leadership book? And inevitably a third more of the audience will raise their hand if I say, I don't ask them which one. I say, what did it say? Vacuous blank look. Can't deliver it. So to me, it has to be not just strategic, but tactical. What can I put to work? How can I do something different today than I would have done had I not read this book or had I not had that epiphanous moment thought process. It's really a neurobiology of making connections, uh, almost enzymatic connections between things that have connections that we didn't see before. That's what I think your role, and that's what I think my role is, is to help accentuate, to augment those connections, those enzymatic reactions. To be able to say, oh, I hadn't thought about it that way. Let me try this on for size.

Speaker A: They say the insight is sight from the inside.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker A: And that's when you kind of listen to something and you go, hey, that has. It's manifested in the body here that I want to do something, or I've created an idea. And I didn't know where this conversation was going to lead today. I tried to structure interviews around seeing what you've got to say and seeing, you know, what I think the, the. The listeners want to hear where the challenges might be based on the lens that I have. And you've been able to handle those with such ease as I knew that you would because you did last time on the show. There is a question I've got For you, though, because you opened your last response, um, with. You've invited to all of these different things. What's your view on luck now? I don't know if you believe luck plays a role in leadership. I don't personally, and people will challenge me and that's fine. I don't personally believe in the idea of luck. I believe we're just prepared for opportunity. So, yes, you might be lucky. If you win the lottery. You've got to buy the ticket in the first place, and that involves an element of opportunity taking that others who don't buy one don't have a chance of winning. But you said you were invited and others might go, uh, Tom's really lucky. He's able to do X, Y and z. He's got 24 books, you know, his success. Unfortunately, they won't want to attribute it to you necessarily in the way that it should be attributed because they'll say, he's just more lucky than I am. I would counter and say Tom is unbelievably prepared for opportunity. You've accepted the invitations, you've said yes a lot. You've put yourself in risky situations. You've tried to learn from everyone that you've had. And every time you've evolved your thinking, you've published it and you've shared it and you've tried to have a bigger impact on the world. But this is how I see it. I'd love to get your take on how you view the word luck and, um, where it sits in the role of leadership.

Speaker B: Well, you know, it's contrarian. Uh, you would expect me to have a contrarian response?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, a lot of our players are superstitious. You know, they, they put one shoe on first and the other shoe, uh, they put a sock on and then a shoe or a sock and a sock and then a shoe and a shoe. And so player asked me not too long ago, hey, doc, do you believe in superstition? And I said, no, I think that's bad luck. You know, took him a second, but he got the joke.

Speaker A: Funny ass kid.

Speaker B: So here's the contrarian idea that luck equals discipline. People shake their head and say, what do you mean luck equals discipline? Well, lots, uh, of people said luck equals preparation plus opportunity. Well, I would say luck equals discipline plus opportunity, meaning the discipline of being open to different things, divergent thinking and having the bravery, guards, and tenacity to focus those diversion things into a convergent action for the team that we're talking about. So I would say do I believe in luck. No, I believe in discipline. I believe in preparation. I believe in a wide open mind to be able to consider all perspectives. You know, that's luck. And I, I get this all the time. You know, there's always somebody in the audience that says, yeah, Doc, but I'm not going to lead on a world stage. I'm not Tom Mayer. And my answer is I wasn't Tom Mayer when I started. You take my meaning? Meaning the Tom Mayer that you put into AI and get, you know, one of the most respected sports medicine and emergency physicians and all that. I apologize. That sounded, uh, self serving, wasn't meant to be. You know, we're just living our lives and then the, uh, the opportunity comes to serve others and that's where the invitation comes from. So I don't, I really don't think it's luck. I think you and I agree on that. I mean, the taxonomy may vary slightly, but you might say preparation, I'd say discipline, or the discipline of preparation and preparing for what? Whatever. You just don't know.

Speaker A: What's really interesting is whether you knew it or not, Tom, you've kind of brought the conversation full circle because we started the conversation in our limiting beliefs. And when that individual puts their hand up and says, tom, I could never be that leader. That's a limiting belief right there that already puts you on the back foot, right. No matter who you are. If you start with a limiting belief like that, then you are kind of writing your own, your own future. Because you can't get anywhere if you have those limiting beliefs over, uh, there's a cloud over your head the whole time. But what you can and cannot achieve, right? Because you'll end up taking or making decisions that are risk averse. Uh, you will say, end up not accepting those invitations. And I know that's a really difficult thing for people to, to remove that veil of insecurity sometimes or limiting beliefs. But if we're able to do that, it's amazing how many opportunities can start to present themselves. I'm going to ask one more question. I wasn't planning to, but something occurred to me. I had, I don't know if you know Alan Stein Jr. He's been on the show a couple of times. He popped up in my head. He's the only other guest I've had on this show twice and you are the second person I've ever had back. So, you know, and both us guests, I think you're both amazing. But his, and again, he's worked in, uh, the NBA. He's an NBA coach for LeBron James and something like that. He said, nick, you know, I've had people in basketball come all the way through and get their first pro contract. And for many people in the world, it's at that moment they think they've made it. And I say to those individuals, now's where the work starts.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: And I know you spent your whole life getting to this point, but the challenge is being able to sustain that, uh, level of performance. And he's all about sustaining your game. So let me, I want to finish with a question around leadership. How do we sustain a level of leadership performance in a world that is fast changing, ambiguous, constantly evolving? There's lots of things being thrown at us. We need to be constantly adaptable. I think there's a constant challenge there. I suspect I may know where you're going to go with this, but I'd love you to go back to your word. Articulate it in the way that only you can. How do we sustain leadership performance?

Speaker B: I'll retreat to the great T.S. eliot. Uh, you know, we shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all of our exploring will be to come to the place where we started and know it for the first time. And so I think that's the way we have to approach things. You know, the athletes you're talking about. Same thing is true in the National Football League. And we always try to get experienced players, retired, former, uh, players to talk to them about. I know what you think you know, but you're about to enter into a universe that you've never dreamed really existed, meaning the details, the disciplines, the bravery, courage and tenacity that it takes to come into the league and do all those things. So I get that completely. And I think it's that commitment to exploration of this non stop intellectual curiosity, willing to be surprised, willing to say, uh, Churchill, brilliant. I'm always willing to learn, but I do not always wish to be taught. You know, the knowledge. Yeah, but someone telling me that's a little different deal. So to me, it's just, you know, at this stage, uh, someone indelicately asked me my age at a Q and A at a session. And I said, well, when you reach my stage in life, it's. We don't call it age, we call it carbon dated. Well, you know, I'm just so grateful that people would find anything that I would have to say remotely of value. So appreciate you asking me to come back and speak to your audience. You're a great interviewer. And it's, uh, a real talent.

Speaker A: I promise you, I get as much, if not more out of this conversation than you do as a guest. Honestly, I could talk about this for hours. I hope that you really put the intellectual curiosity and the guests that listen to this, although the audience listen to this show as well. Ah, we've got, uh, 60% of audience are in the U.S. but this is globally relevant. Doesn't matter where you're based. I think if you're interested in being a better leader, not just in your, in a place of work. Right. It's how we lead ourselves. It's how we lead everything, how we lead ourselves in our home lives, with our families, you know, all those things. So I think it's almost impossible not to listen to your words and not have something to take away from it. So thank you for giving so much of yourself and your expertise because I think it, it's incredibly valuable. And for those that want to find out more, there will of course be a link in my show notes. You can go straight through to the book that Thomas talks about today, but also I'll put a link to the last episode we recorded together, which was equally as entertaining. Uh, I thoroughly enjoyed that one. I couldn't wait to have you back on the show. So thank you, Dr. Tom Mayer, for joining me again on the HR LMB podcast. Leadership isn't tested when conditions are perfect. I think that's the thing to take away, right? We constantly evolving. It's tested when, um, uncertainty arrives, when ah, pressure rises, when people are looking for direction. Sometimes we've got to accept those invitations a little bit more, maybe remove those, those limiting beliefs and be authentic, be vulnerable and just see where it takes us. I think you've been a wonderful example and a wonderful guest. So thank you so much.

Speaker B: We did this last time, I think, but to your listeners, reach out if I can help. My email is just Tom mayermdmail. It's spelled T H O M M M M A Y E R M D at gmail. My cell phone is 703-403-4147. If I can help you, I will.

Speaker A: I'll put that in the show notes. Be careful what you wish for, but you might get a few. You'll get my, um, number. I'll be messaging you after this.

Speaker B: Really appreciate you.

Speaker A: Yeah, you too. Thank you, Tom. Deal is the all in one platform to hire, manage and pay your global team. Giving ah, HR One place to work instead of juggling disconnected systems from onboarding to offboarding. Deal brings payroll compliance and even IT access together across 150 countries all on infrastructure. They built them. That means HR isn't wrestling with logins, tabs and tools all day long. Book your demo today at, uh, d eel.comnickdayhr that's deal.comnickdayhr.