The Michelle Pascoe Hospitality Podcast · 2026-06-30 · 44 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
52 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Owen Clancy, operations manager and principal associate at Galileo Hospitality Consultants, joins Michelle Pascoe to dissect the gap between servant leadership aspirations and reality in hospitality. Drawing on 40 years of experience across Hilton, Marriott, Cheesecake Factory, and his own multi-unit operations, Clancy argues that true servant leadership - where leaders work alongside their teams and solve problems collaboratively - drives retention, reduces turnover costs, and boosts guest satisfaction. He illustrates this through memorable leaders like Ted Renner at Atlanta's massive 1,674-room Marriott hotel, who knew all 1,800 staff members by name, creating loyalty that translated to higher productivity. Clancy emphasizes understanding employees' seasons of life (caregiving, aging parents, school schedules) to retain experienced talent. The conversation covers how empowering frontline staff to handle guest issues creatively - like a server turning a juice mistake into a complimentary tropical cocktail - creates word-of-mouth marketing and recovers service failures. For hospitality operators, GMs, and HR leaders, this episode clarifies why investing time in team development and autonomy yields better returns than command-and-control management or constant hiring cycles. Clancy also addresses generational hiring bias, acknowledging younger workers bring energy but require more patience post-COVID, while experienced staff offer stability and institutional knowledge that shouldn't be dismissed for social media aesthetics.
Servant leadership means leaders work alongside their teams, demonstrate how tasks are done, and help solve problems collaboratively rather than just directing from above. Owen Clancy distinguishes it from command-and-control by emphasizing that a true servant leader stands beside staff saying 'this is how we do it,' then steps back and supports when issues arise - creating loyalty and higher productivity.
High turnover costs hospitality operators months of training and lost productivity. Clancy explains that by understanding employees' personal circumstances - aging parent care, school schedules, childcare - managers can redesign roles or hours to balance work and life, building exceptional loyalty and reducing the revolving door effect.
When staff have autonomy to solve problems creatively - like a server creating a complimentary mocktail for a guest who misread the menu - guests become walking advertisements and return frequently. Clancy emphasizes that mistakes handled with care and empowerment create more remarkable experiences than perfect service without issues.
Experienced staff reduce onboarding time, have stable employment histories, and bring institutional knowledge that speeds productivity. However, Clancy acknowledges hospitality's bias toward youth and social media aesthetics, while noting that younger workers post-COVID often require more patience and support to navigate mental health impacts.
Clancy illustrates this with a hotel incident where he misread a juice expiry date; the staff member responded with kindness, offered to ensure his next breakfast was perfect, and earned his loyalty through care. He emphasizes that when problems are solved with genuine support, guests become more likely to recommend the business than if nothing had gone wrong.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode contains a handful of genuinely useful ideas - particularly the counterintuitive case for surrendering a Michelin star after holding it as a financial and marketing strategy, and the Cheesecake Factory's two-month pre-opening training cost. However, the majority of runtime is filled with platitudes (consistency matters, listen to guests, servant leadership is good) and extended personal anecdotes that do not resolve into actionable insight.
there is a good case for bringing. Once you've achieved a star and held it, shown that you could hold it for a couple of years, you've built your reputation. M from a chef's perspective, if they want to go elsewhere, then all they have to do is say, here's the Michelin star that I used
We trained our Staff for two months. Six days before we opened a restaurant. M. Monster. It's a huge labor cost.
The Michelin star surrender strategy - earn it, hold it two to three years, hand it back, then market as 'former Michelin starred' at lower price points to widen the financial base - is a genuinely counterintuitive argument with real strategic logic. Everything else (servant leadership, empowering staff, listening to guests, mixed-age workforces) is standard hospitality management discourse recycled without fresh framing.
We gave it back. And the key factor is. And we then reduced prices accordingly to make it more accessible for more of our guests.
Far shron starred restaurants go bust with alarming regularity. Yes, yes, alarming regularity. It's not a good financial bet.
Owen Clancy is a genuine multi-brand, multi-geography operator with hands-on experience at Hilton, Marriott, Cheesecake Factory, and independent openings across Europe, the US, and the Middle East - a real practitioner rather than a career speaker. He is however a mid-senior consultant rather than a C-suite principal who drove decisions at scale, and the conversation does not fully exploit the depth of experience he clearly has.
Working for Marriott States, I worked in Atlanta. The hotel was massive. It was 1674 rooms. Huge. M. And I can still tell you the name of the general manager, gentleman by the name of Ted Renner. He used to know everybody's name, 1800 staff.
I had a boss, the Global Director of operations. Fantastic guy, worked just like dogs.
There are several concrete anchors - 1,674-room Marriott Atlanta, 1,800 staff, a named GM (Ted Renner), two months of pre-opening Cheesecake Factory training, a 23% year-on-year rise in WRC caseloads in Ireland, and Gordon Ramsay's 13 lost versus 19 held stars. These elevate the episode above pure abstraction, but several statistics are stated without source and some claims (divorce rate ranking, Ramsay star count) are imprecise or unverified.
there was a 23 and 23% increase between two years ago and last year
Gordon Ramsay has actually lost 13 stars in his career... Not what you'd expect, but he's got 19.
The host poses a few structurally ambitious questions - the servant leadership vs. command-and-control framing and the Michelin star surrender question are genuinely sharp - but she consistently undermines them by jumping in with lengthy personal anecdotes (the Eschalot birthday dinner, the Gen X aging-parents digression) that eat guest airtime and derail follow-up. There is no meaningful challenge or pushback on any claim throughout the episode.
is fine dining on the decline as a business model? Do you feel, and is there an argument that surrendering a Michelin star can actually be a smart operational decision?
And without a beat, instead of going, buddy, that's like one juice per. Without a beat, she said, would you like me to make you a very special tropical cocktail for you? And my husband said, oh, that'd be really nice, you know, and. And she went away and she made this beautiful big glass.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Real hospitality leadership reduces staff turnover, lifts team productivity, and builds guest loyalty - and according to Eoin Clancy, Principal Associate at Galileo Hospitality Consultants and a 40-year veteran of Hilton, Marriott, and the Cheesecake Factory, the clearest measure of a great leader is simple: would your team drop everything to work with you again? Would you pass that test? Michelle Pascoe is a Certified Speaking Professional and hospitality training expert with over 30 years' experience helping clubs, hotels, and hospitality venues build service cultures that retain staff and delight guests. In this episode, Michelle sits down with Eoin Clancy for a candid, experience-rich conversation about what servant leadership looks like in practice, why the hospitality revolving door keeps spinning, and what it actually takes to slow it down. Servant leadership works in hospitality because it creates the conditions where people stay longer, work harder, achieve their KPIs, and genuinely enjoy their jobs. Eoin learned this first-hand under a general manager at a 1,674-room Marriott in Atlanta who knew the names of all 1,800 staff members. Not from name badges.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome everyone to today's podcast. And I have a gentleman, Owen Clancy, all the way from Dublin on our call today. And I know this is going to be very insightful because the questions I've got to ask of Owen are, uh, probably going, you're going to be thinking, oh, I don't know about that, that question, Michelle, but it's going to get us to the answers that perhaps we're not always willing to say out loud either. Uh, so it's going to be a lot of fun. Owen Clancy is an operations manager who got sucked into consultancy. He is a seasoned hospitality professional with hard won experience of designing, building and running operations units from the ground up. Um, from Hilton, Marriott and the Crown Plaza to the Cheesecake Factory. And I must say, I love the Cheesecake Factory. I'm just a, I am a sucker for that. When I go to America. I just going through the menus, all those things. Oh, too many choices. From Europe and the US to all over, uh, the Middle East. Owen has opened units for the most capable and professional companies as well as opening his own multi unit operations, is now the principal associate for Galileo Hospitality Consultants. Welcome Owen. It's so lovely to have you on the podcast, Michelle.
Speaker B: Nice to be here.
Speaker A: So look, let's get into it. As uh, Owen and I were just saying it's the end of my day, it's the start, start of his and we've both got places we'd like to be. Um, but more importantly, we want to really get into these questions for my listeners because as I said, uh, it's, we're going to have a lot of fun. So my first question for you, Owen, is you've worked inside some of the world's most respect, you know, highly respected hospitality brands and you've also built your own multi unit operations. In your experience, uh, is a servant leadership style generally practiced in hospitality or is it mostly just that aspirational language that makes a command and control culture underneath?
Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're right, it is a lot. There's a lot of aspirational aspect to this. The practical application is sometimes sadly lacking. Yes, I've met some great leaders in my time, to be fair. And actually the Cheesecake Factory, my wife, my wife doesn't think it's a company. She thinks it's a religious cult, the way I go on with it. But the level of attention to detail is very, very important for the success of an operation. And you can tell literally the sheep from the lambs. Yes. With Cheesecake Factory you brought it up I'll use it as a very good example. I had a boss, the Global Director of operations. Fantastic guy, worked just like dogs. We didn't do a 37 and a half hour week, but it was strange because it was actually very enjoyable.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And I said recently to somebody, if he called me tomorrow and said, oh, listen, I just need someone to do a week's opening, would you, would you come over? I drop everything, go.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Now that tells you an awful lot about the impact that person has on your long term, the way that you, you deal with people, the way that you manage operations. Yes. Genuinely, when you see somebody who can do everything that you do, it's not that he's somewhere over there and he's telling you, you should go and do this. He's standing there beside you saying, this is how we do it.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And then from the servant leadership perspective, he sent, then stands back and I want you to do it. And when you have a problem, come to me and I will help you solve that problem. M. Very hard not to fall for, uh, that. Very hard not to fall in love. I'm falling in love with the style, with a way of dealing with people.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And I think because it's the best way forward. I've seen through 40 years of experience that it is the best way to run operations. The most successful produces the best results. And you know that your team will stay with you longer, work harder. They're far more likely to achieve their KPIs and genuinely can actually have a lot more fun with it as well.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Yeah, just definitely aspirational, not often achieved, but it's something that people, as you say, they often put us in as a mission objective, that box. As often as they should, at least.
Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Which is a shame because when you see it working, it just works really well. And it was actually last year I did, um, one of my podcast episodes was about a time that I spent in Phoenix, Arizona last year. And in Keeland, I went to the Cheesecake Factory just across the road. I went a couple of times and just talking to the wait staff as well as the gentleman who was the manager of that venue. And just seeing that aspirational system working with, you know, within that video. I mean, I've been in lots of cheesecake factories. Um, but that one, I could really see it working and just talking, uh, uh, to the wait staff. And you're right, no matter what business it is, if you've just got the right person who, who can just breathe this, this aspirational thoughts and, and, and it just goes from one person and across the whole team. And then of course, then it goes out to our beautiful guests. Isn't it, you know, that are dining with us or, you know, having a drink or whatever it might be. But yeah, sometimes you might have the idea. It just doesn't always come to fruition.
Speaker B: I worked with a couple of companies who are perhaps, uh, a little lower down the list of companies that people want to work for.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Uh, I was younger and um, perhaps a little bit more foolish and titles were offered, roles were offered, and I jumped at the opportunity and um, somewhat patently regretted it in an occasional basis. I did work for a company that was recently rated as the worst hotel company in the uk.
Speaker A: Oh, lovely.
Speaker B: It should not remain nameless, but. But you actually learn almost as much. This sounds kind of terrible in some way. You learn more from the people who are really bad at their job. Sometimes you learn from the people who are really good at their job.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And to be a little bit more discerning in the things that you want to adapt and incorporate into your own style. Yeah. Working for Marriott States, I worked in Atlanta. The hotel was massive. It was 1674 rooms. Huge. M. And I can still tell you the name of the general manager, gentleman by the name of Ted Renner. He used to know everybody's name, 1800 staff. And he was able to. He wasn't just looking, reading your name badge.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: This is something who's obviously very interested and values the team highly. Mhm. Because we could feel that, uh, coming from him, it meant that we valued our jobs far more.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: We were far more. Contributed a much higher level of productivity to the company because of what we were receiving back from him. Yeah, he created an atmosphere and it was impressive.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: It was just like that feeling, you know, knowing 1800 staff, like knowing the, the names and I'm sure there's probably some that he knew, you know, is either had the conversation about the favorite dog or their meal or their family or school or whatever. It was creating that real family, that feeling of belonging. And that's what, you know, employees, uh, are, uh, looking for, aren't they? They wonder. You know, we unfortunately the majority is have to work. So. So if we can work in an environment, um, I'm still waiting for that night. And shining almond. No, made of my own. But you know, it's important that if we create that feeling of belonging, then we attract the people that want to work for us and then they grow and then they duplicate that same Feeling to others, don't they?
Speaker B: Very much.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Guys yesterday and a supervisory management team allocating them various little projects while I'm going away on um, some on a vacation, hopefully a well earned vacation. Hopefully at least. But the point is that I'm setting up mini projects for the team when I'm away. They'll work in pairs. It'll draw them together, make them work together, hopefully better as a team. M should have their projects finished by the time I get back in two weeks.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: But the idea of it all is that we're trying to build that team. You talk several times in your, in your post in your podcast about community.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: A community spirit within the team. People become, should become at least self reliant on each other. You help me, I help you. You build a level of trust and then what happens is the people tend to stay longer. Issue M frequently have in hospitality is that there is a bit of a revolving door. Yeah. And uh, if you can reduce the speed of that revolving door, people stay longer, you're investing less time. The initial induction, you're spending more time in their growth developing them.
Speaker A: Yes, yes.
Speaker B: So that they feel that their career is growing. Have um, to be some promotion opportunities there as well, to be fair. But some people dealing with a guy yesterday who was at a lower level than he should be. What is the issue? The issue is that he's got family that he has to deal with and that's his overriding commitment, uh, his overall priority. I understand that completely. So I'm sitting down with them saying, okay, listen, what can we do? I'd like you to take on a bit more responsibility to take a higher role in the company. But for that to happen, we need to arrange your life around your children, wife and wider family.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: How can we blend the two together if we can get that balance right? The loyalty that'll come back from this gentleman is exceptional. His volatility will rise, he'll be much more contented. That means the atmosphere within the wider group will be much more positive. And that means the staff will potentially they just come in the revolving door. They could just as easily go back out.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: People are more to stay. We're spending less time on training, initial training, getting people up to speed because you know, like I know somebody walks in the door. It's actually taking us time, effort and money to train these people.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: We actually contributed to the business among two months into the, into the employment. So if we can cut down on uh, that our productivity rises. I hate to use the word Exponentially, but very, very quickly. That's really the ball of this. Also guest perspective. Let's be fair, without the guests M, we have no salaries.
Speaker A: That's right.
Speaker B: They're key to it all. But with guests, if you can, if they can build relationships with staff, predominantly staff, because they're the touch point for the company, between the company M and the guests. If they can build longer, longer relationships, we'll start building that more often. Yes. So it's a virtuous circle. Everybody benefits from this. But it starts, as you said, at the very start with a little bit of servant leadership, trying to guide, support your team. Yes. Not just demand and control. Come here, do this.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Those days are gone, hopefully.
Speaker A: Yeah. Hopefully. Yes. And. And long gone. And what I really enjoyed hearing you saying then, Owen, it was the fact that at times we have to look at the season of life that person's going through, and we're going to see a lot of that, you know, now particularly with our Gen X being that, that really in that senior leadership role where they're now looking after aging parents. So. And you know, uh, I did it many years ago. I've lost both my parents now. But you know, at the time it was, you know, trying to find them places. You know, the, uh, hospital, the doctor's visits and then retirement villages and all that goes into that. And then for many of them, they've still got children at home, although looking after grandchildren as well, or have those responsibilities because the children are also working. And so we, I think to be a really great employer is to realize I could be really hard and say to this, this staff member, uh, you know, just go, you, you, you're not, you're obviously not interested in the role, but instead, as you're saying, let's have a discussion. You're in this season of life. What can we do for us? We want you to do this. We think you can achieve this, but what can we do to support you still recognizing that you're running a business as well, but you will get that extra loyalty, but you'll also get somebody who is just really good at their job. Instead of you going out recruiting again and then spending that cycle of months hoping that this person's the right person. It's just crazy, isn't it? Yeah.
Speaker B: And there are so many compliance training modules that we must, by law give to our staff.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: If you completed them with an employee, you're freeing up. First of all, they're more developed, they're more, uh, trained, more experienced. But if you're constantly starting back at base one again, it's just, it's exhausting emotionally and physically, but it's financially draining as well. So trying to reallocating your energy so you can spend a little bit more time with your team, building that relationship with them, developing them, growing them, offering them opportunities in the future. The payback. Yeah. Is phenomenal.
Speaker A: Yes, yes.
Speaker B: Phenomenal.
Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. And then what you will say, talking about, you know, how it flows through to our guests and that relationship that they have with the frontline team members or even the managers are on the floor, is that not only do they return but they recommend. And we all know, you know, we, we look at that new restaurant, we think, oh yes, we've read the reviews, are they good? But it's that personal recommendation from our uh, you know, our um, mate that sits at the desk next to us or somebody on the train or just hearing, you know, now people go to social media and sorting through them all. It's those recommendations and referrals that really make businesses, don't they? And all because they've had a great relationship and a really nice meal or whatever it might be.
Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. Couldn't agree with you more. It is the people who walk in your door who when they walk out your door should be your advert.
Speaker A: Yes, definitely. For all the right reasons.
Speaker B: Interesting again that you say that, that's a very good point because realistically, when you have an opportunity. Sorry, I'll rephrase that. When something goes wrong, you have an opportunity to turn them into that walking billboard or that walking and talking billboard. If you submit, you come into the restaurant, you come into the hotel, you have a pleasant experience, nothing goes wrong, you walk out, you think that was nice, that was pleasant, you probably really tell anybody about it per se, but. Mhm. If you've had a problem and it's solved correctly and it's managed with a little bit of care, maybe even a little bit of love, by definition you're going to be far more impressed. It's a more remarkable experience and more like you spoke about it.
Speaker A: Yes, yes, yeah. And sometimes it can be really something simple and last night we're actually, it was my husband's birthday. We have a beautiful restaurant down here called Eschalot in Berrimo, which is part of the Southern Highlands. It's a, it's a really lovely little country town, but it's a well recognized restaurant and you have to book in weeks and weeks in advance. So you know, it's only 10 minutes down the road from us. So we were there last night. Now my daughter and I were together. We love a cocktail, but my husband doesn't drink alcohol. So he's sitting there, you know, and then. And the white girl, she was just wonderful. Because he's sitting there and he's reading through the mocktails. No, I don't like this. I'm very slow. I'm thinking, come on, hurry it up. Anyway, then he goes, oh, I'll have one of these. And he goes, cranberry, orange, pineapple. And. And then she. And she looks at him, very nice. She goes, oh, Sue. She goes, that's our juices. And without a beat, instead of going, buddy, that's like one juice per. Without a beat, she said, would you like me to make you a very special tropical cocktail for you? And my husband said, oh, that'd be really nice, you know, and. And she went away and she made this beautiful big glass. She put ice in it, she umbrellas, you know, and she goes, that's complimentary for your birthday. All just by what she said. We had, uh, four courses. We literally rolled out of the place. Cost us a lot of money. But we'll be back and we'll return and we'll refer. All because she made him feel absolutely special by just having a mixed juice because he'd read it wrong. And it can be something. But how many times, Owen, have you been in where you've had somebody correct you and you know, rightly so, but you, you feel embarrassed, particularly if you're with people that you don't know. You know, or even that you do. So I thought just the way she handled it was beautiful. That doesn't come with being rote trained. That's come from somebody who loves what they do. Don't you think?
Speaker B: Yes. And it's somebody who's been given the space to do that. They've been, to use the old word, empowered.
Speaker A: Yes, definitely.
Speaker B: And if you can get your team to that level on a regular basis, think about their work life. They're actually having more fun. They will control. They're not just robots in the machine.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Larger machine M. They're actually. They have some control over their life and they're enjoying their day to day interactions with people. And that, uh, it's that contact point.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And the guest, which the manager can't always manage because they're not physically there. They have to entrust, they have to give power to their employees so that they have the autonomy to deal with these issues. Uh, you mentioned, you know, that little things going Wrong. And how it can be. It can be a good thing. Uh, yesterday in a hotel, and we had an issue with breakfast. Wandered over to somebody. How's your food? Is everything okay? Yes. Bosch.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You have to lean in slightly. Sure. How can I help? Tell me some more. And, you know, there was a problem with the juice. We had a to go box. We had. Because we didn't make it for breakfast. We were leading too early on a tour. We got a juice, and it's out of date. I was a little bit surprised. I thought, okay, that's. That's not what I would have expected to happen. Could I maybe possibly see that? The juice carton. Of course. Yes, certainly, certainly. Come up to our room. Okay. And I wanted up with them. And they brought it out. The date they were looking at was actually the production date. Ah.
Speaker A: Uh, right.
Speaker B: Yes. It was below it. Slightly smaller print, but below it.
Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
Speaker B: Okay. So here, just below it says exp. That's actually the expiry date. And I could have thought, you know, you idiot, didn't you read it right? But the lady. I didn't have my glass on, so that's fine. I said, I have to take my glasses off to read it. The opposite were the same. Don't worry about it. It's not a problem. Listen, are you. Are you down for breakfast tomorrow? When you're there, call me. We'll make sure that everything will be perfect for you.
Speaker A: Yes, yes.
Speaker B: Thank you so much. And she shook my hand. She didn't quite kiss me, but we were going in that direction.
Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker B: They're the moments that you got into hospitality far.
Speaker A: That's right.
Speaker B: Definitely why we do this. Yes.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And the people that don't. That aren't interested in that, they need to work in banking or insurance or something. Mushroom banking. Don't get me wrong, there's wonderfully caring people in banking. But it's a different style of approach.
Speaker A: It is.
Speaker B: We're trying to just kind of cradle the guest a little bit more.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Give them a feeling that we are here to help them. Uh, get. No matter what, is if we can possibly do it, we will. And the juice turned into a cocktail is a great example.
Speaker A: Yeah, it was. It was. It was just lovely. And we walked away and, you know, and. And m. And you could see her even at the end while we were leaving, and she goes, so remember when you want that the best mocktail in town. Come to. You know, come to ty. And it was. And it was just that last little, you know, she enjoyed making it as well, which was, which was fantastic. We've, you know, we talk about the uh, the younger generation now, particularly in the hospitality, you know, with a lot of Gen Zs. And I don't know if it's the same, you know, where you are, but here you've got, oh, they have no initiative, they have no common sense and there's a little bit of negativity, but I think we have that in every generation. Owen. But just some people always, you know, pick on that, that new generation. But you know, you've operated environments where the workforce spans, you know, multiple generations. You uh, know, whether it's from the Hilton to the Cheesecake Factory, Europe, you know, USA or the Middle East. But when a hospitality operator is making those hiring decisions, decisions, what is that genuine business case for employing the older person, that more experienced staff? And where do operators perhaps get it wrong?
Speaker B: Well, in hospitality, image is a lot of what we sell. Totally honest about this. Social media plays a massive, massive role and the decisions that people make, particularly the females who are often the decision makers in where people go. I m know my wife makes most decisions about where we go, to be fair and, but it's often done with the aid or not of, of social media.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: On social media, let's be fair, old and wrinkly doesn't really cut the, the mustard. People are looking for somebody young, fresh, vibrant, dare I say beautiful. As, uh, wonderful as that is, as wonderful as the images, the reality is starkly differently. Younger people are high in energy, high in, in enthusiasm in many, many ways. But there are m parts that aren't quite so perfect, let's be fair. There has been a massive, I have noticed a massive difference at ah, post Covid after the, the issues that we had with COVID Yes. And it has undoubtedly affected the mental health of a lot of our younger employees. Yes, I understand that. I get that. It affected me negatively too, to be fair, but at the same time there are some people who have to a certain extent taken advantage of the situation. Yes, I don't feel like I can do that. It's not something I want to do now. That's okay. It's part of your job. If you don't like it, I would hate to see you leave. But unfortunately we have to go down a disciplinary route if that's the situation. Yes, but um, if you handle these situations with a bit of adeptly, adroitly m, what you find is often you can turn the person into a far more productive employee, but it takes a lot More patience than it did 20, 30, 40 years ago. But again, referring back to the servant leadership thing, if you're willing to spend the time, you can actually get massive returns on your investment in time.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Sitting, talking and most importantly, listening to employees. This is the bit that is from a management perspective, we often kind of slide by and just kind of shift that one to the side. We know what we're doing, we need to do this. Yes, that's all valid, I get that. But sometimes you just need to listen to the personal circumstances. But person is in what they're facing. Yes. Sometimes it may be trivial to us. We go, oh, for God's sake. But to the person, to the employee, it's massive.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: You can see it through their eyes. If we can walk in their shoes for today, M all day. But you understand what I mean. It will open up vistas new opportunities to us because realistically, the vast majority of these people have been dismissed. Yes. Previous managers and employers in the past. They're looking for, they're waiting, yearning for a shoulder to lean on, an ear that will be open to their, their needs. Uh, if you can provide that. Yes. Life becomes an awful lot easier work with a well known British, um, gourmet food company recently focusing on tasting menus. M had just this issue with a girl who said, I just can't do this anymore. Just can't take it. The chef's been shout. He's been abusive to me. Okay, why is the chef been abusive to you? Well, I mean, just because I got the order wrong. Okay, okay, let's just go through that. You should have delivered course five and you delivered course. So you should delivered course four. You delivered course five instead. M. That means that they're now out of kilter. That means the, the wine pairing that you're supposed to have delivered is the wrong wine. Now the bartender is getting annoyed at you. Yes, but it's not their fault. Sorry. It's not your fault. It's their fault.
Speaker A: M. Yes.
Speaker B: Now that was what was going in my, going on in my mind. But of course I had to list to her. She had to come out with all of this. At the end of it, she was cognizant of what she was saying. She m did understand there was still a little bit of resistance, but I actually didn't even have to say anything. All I had to do is ask a few perhaps pointed questions. Why did this happen? How did that make you feel? How did they felt? Huh? And then suddenly things opened up a little bit and she became Far more pliable.
Speaker A: Yes, yes.
Speaker B: Understanding of the wider view. And once that happens. Not always. Not always, but sometimes, frequently, once they've had that opportunity to open up, things could be smoothed out.
Speaker A: Yes, well, they're starting to see it from the two points of view, isn't it? Or you know, that just that wider view because, you know, they're seeing it from, from where they stand. Oh, you know, you're, you're attacking me or I feel like you're yelling. But what is that broader view? And yes, now it's the bar. So now they're thinking we've got the wrong wine with the wrong food and you've only then got to have, you know, there'll be some diners that we. Oh, that'll be fine. Don't worry. Don't stress. But there'll be others. No, this is not what I had ordered. This is not what my expectation. So now that levels up. Now they're not only dealing with a screaming chef. Well, they feel it's a screaming chef and a bar manager. But now they're dealing with the unhappy diner and which will escalate really, really quickly and become uncomfortable for everyone. What are your thoughts, though, about the older population in. I shouldn't be saying older population, but, you know, we're so focused on Gen Z being, being, you know, the biggest generation in our workforce over the next decade. But what about bringing those, even the, you know, top end of Y and X because, you know, for many baby boomers have retired, although there are some that are still wanting to continue for quite a number of years, even in. Of front, frontline roles that. Do you see that there is still this, this quite a large cohort across those three generations that enjoy the workplace, but either are not getting a fair go, uh, or do you believe that they're getting a better go than they did before?
Speaker B: COVID I think it is changing. You're right. I think people with more experience are being slightly more valued. The value attached to them is increasing. It's improving in perception. Yeah, I have, I, my. The recommendation that I give people in an operation is that they employ a wide variety of age groups.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: If everybody is young or everybody is old, if they're young, what will happen is they will go out partying. It's as simple as that. And then people will not turn up the next morning. If you have a more varied workforce. My experience, strong experience, has been that the older people, particularly older females, tend to be a little bit Mother Hennish.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Kind of put their arm around the Younger, more so girls, but they tend to stabilize them.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And give them a bit more connection to reality. Perhaps. So it's fantastic dynamic to have that blend of different ages.
Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. It's just that combination. And we do, we work beautifully together and we can learn so much from each other, which is great. Um, in your bio, you described your sources that you got sucked into consultancy after, uh, a career running, you know, real operations. That's a different starting point. Uh, um, for most consultants, how should a hospitality, um, operator evaluate whether bringing in a consultant will actually deliver a return? And what are the signs they're about to, uh, waste their money?
Speaker B: Yeah, good point. And the part, I'll give you one example of it, I got a phone call. Call completely out of the blue, somebody saying, hi, listen, we need a little help. Can you help us? Of course. What do you need? Let's sit down, let's find out again. Listen, find out what your needs are. Let's literally, we'll write them down, we'll analyze them, we'll make sure that this is actually what you need. And then we'll drive forward to find ways that we can satisfy the needs that you have.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: A small boutique hotel with a couple of. A company with a couple of other restaurants and bars as well. And they had some serious issues. Very serious issues. Joint general managers who needed to move on, shall we say.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And I had to assist in that process. And reorganizing a management team is challenging. People do not like change at all, especially when they're benefiting from the fact that, you know, they can do it their own way.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And the sucking in part was. Was interesting because it just, uh. When I arrived back in Ireland, obviously I've been abroad for many, many years. My father was here. He was 91. He's unfortunately passed away recently, but I got to spend quite a bit of time with him, which is fantastic. But the point is that I got drawn into this simply because I spoke to an entrepreneur who has quite a few different, um, operations, hotels, restaurants, bars. And he said, listen, I need you to do some auditing for me.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: I've done quite a bit of auditing internally in companies. And he said, so can you do X, Y and Z? Of course, no problem. We'll get that done for you. Tell me what you need and then we'll form a plan to make sure that you get what you have to.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And then I got another phone call. And then I get another phone call. And they get another phone call. And so it is interesting. I like the challenges of it. I like the, the rawness of ah, is it's always good when you walk away from a project that you turn around and go, did we miss anything? No, no, you ticked all the boxes. That's great.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Thank you very much.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And where you can, you can shake hands with that person and know that they're looking you in the eye thinking, great, we've got a job done here.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Very satisfying.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yes.
Speaker B: And I've done work in, in Grenada, I've done work in Atlanta. I've been asked to. And people get to know you after a period of time, then you get referrals and people go, yeah, talk to this guy, he'll help you with that. And that could be kind of fun. But it is. Um, again, this is hospitality. You're helping people.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: If you don't have that chip in you, you won't last in hospitality.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So do you think, you know, when you look at consultants and there are a lot out there, you know, across all industries, um, but there are, you know, quite a number in, you know, globally for hospitality, do you feel. How should, uh, perhaps a company, you know, just like two key points when they're looking at a consultant, what are perhaps two things that they. They should be considering or two questions that they should ask. I don't know why those balloons have just got up.
Speaker B: Celebration of the question you're asking. Very important. What should they be looking for Is somebody who experienced. That goes without m saying. But also there has to be a kind of. Almost like a cultural fit.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: The conversation they have initially, you need to have values. Alignment is one of these great phrases that come up quite plainly. You need to be able to feel that you're compatible with the person you're talking to.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And I've seen and I've spoken to quite a few people who think that they know everything about their subject in depth. And in many cases they do. Um, but most hospitality companies require a bit of a generalist because there isn't just one problem. The problem isn't just in this area or that area, it's through the company.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: It's a cultural thing. In many cases, we don't do enough of X. And you need someone to step back, take a bit of a helicopter view and go, you know, you've got a bit of an issue here. That. That's quite clear. But have you looked at this? What about this? Is this one of the contributive causes down here?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And, um, that cultural fish will Only happen after. You'll feel it after kind uh, of 10, 15 minutes. But if you're looking for a consultant, have a list of questions. Yes, this is what I'm looking for. Can you do this?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Do not feel embarrassed at your own lack of knowledge. Nobody in hospitality knows everything.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: Ah, nobody does. That's the beauty of it. We're all learning and growing. Some people have just been down certain roads a lot farther and a lot deeper and that's. You're looking to find the people who've been down those roads, the ones that can help you with certain aspects of your business that you know you're going to need help with.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: This is a boutique hotel with their, with their uh, different restaurants and bar. Beautiful hotel. Big copper baths in the rooms. I mean stunning to. Some of the suites actually had Jacuzzis on the, on um, the balconies. Oh gosh, that was stunning. And looking out onto the sea, it was, it was really beautiful.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: The owners were smart enough to know what they didn't. Didn't know.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: That's unusual. Yes.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Actually asked to come back and do a little bit more work with them afterwards. Very good guys. But the owner turned around and said, listen, we're opening another few rooms. When it's done, you must come and have a look. Stay on us and have dinner. It's fine, no problem. I just thought thank you. That's the tip left on the, on the table at the end of the day.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: The money for that. What I was looking for was him to be happy with what had happened.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Definitely the m. Strange thing. And here's an unusual thing. I noticed within one of the companies I was working with that they had a bit of a ladish, a boyish, uh, perhaps a bit overly masculine attitude towards the teams. So I did a, an anti bullying training. When I told them, I said I'm going to need 90 minutes your time for this, but I really think it's important. And they laughed a little bit at the start of it thinking, come on, really, this is just. What's this is. This makes, there's no sense to this. And at the end of it he came over, looked me in the eye, shook my hand and said, that's probably one of the most interesting things I've done in the last couple of years. I didn't realize how many potential mistakes we were making, how close we were to having lawsuits. The WRC in Ireland, uh, there's a, the Workplace Relations Commission. Labour caseloads are increasing rapidly. There was a 23 and 23% increase between two years ago and last year. Wow. Increasingly, where particularly our younger generation are going to what they see as balance the books. Um, likely or wrongly.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: But the cost to employers is phenomenal. And I cannot emphasize enough how well or how important a servant leadership style to tie back into what we said at the start, how important that is to ensure that we don't end up in labour court.
Speaker A: Yes, definitely.
Speaker B: Legal perspective, morally, we should be doing the right thing.
Speaker A: Definitely.
Speaker B: I can't emphasize that enough to help you sleep at night and people who you work, who work for you sleep at night. You should be trying to do the right thing as much as you possibly can. Yes.
Speaker A: Yeah. But how interesting how you, you know, you saw it from that outsider perspective being a consultant, you know, and didn't just suggest it as a, uh, would you like to. This is what I need to do, you know, this is what I'm going to do. And even though, you know, you said they sort of that mocking laughter at the start, were able to come away and sit there and realize, wow, we, we thought we were here, but we are like way there and we need to come up, you know, uh, up, uh, to speed with this. So it's wonderful when you can be, you know, and I do see that as being a consultant, as you said, you've got to have the broader generation journalist view and you can see that bigger picture or have seen that scenario somewhere else and exactly the same scenario. Yeah. Just how just quickly it just bombed. So, yeah, it's just interesting when you can share that. But you also have a client who is willing to listen and go on that journey with you, which is key. We talk about Michelin stars, you know, and in restaurants, you know, that, that's the thing, you know, people, oh, it's a Michelin, uh, star restaurant, you know, it's up there and for the hospitality, you know, that is that ultimate status, you know, symbol, because everybody knows what, what it is. Yet we've seen some high profile chefs hand them back. You've worked across fine dining and casual dining formats, including, you know, as you said, the Cheesecake Factory. But is fine dining on the decline as a business model? Do you feel, and is there an argument that surrendering a Michelin star can actually be a smart operational decision? Because, wow, that's a big decision to hand back.
Speaker B: It is indeed. We have, um, there's a Michelin star restaurant up the road here. There's not one down on the left. I mean, I have two of them 600 yards of where I live.
Speaker A: Goodness.
Speaker B: Dublin is blessed with a good culinary scene.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Getting the star is the pinnacle of achievement. M. It's what everybody aims for. Yes, it is. It's what people dream about, literally. And I mean dream about.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And, uh, yet, uh, there's a slide. The pause starts there. The work involved is backbreaking heartbreak.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Family hospitality has the third highest level of divorce. Third highest divorce rate after air traffic control and somebody else that I can't remember.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And chefs are even higher up on that list. Yes. So there is a price to pay. M. Now some people will pay the price and we'll keep going. And remember, the Gordon Ramsay has actually lost 13 stars in his career.
Speaker A: Wow.
Speaker B: Gosh. M. Not what you'd expect, but he's got 19.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: We're focusing on, um, some of them I can't tell you, but I can guess. Some of them he probably was happy to let go of.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: There is a case, a very, very strong case for handing back a Michelin star, but only after you've achieved it and had it for a couple of years. Yeah. Why? Because then you can always say, michelin starred chef. I was Michelin starred chef. Or this was a Michelin starred operation. We gave it back. And the key factor is. And we then reduced prices accordingly to make it more accessible for more of our guests.
Speaker A: Ah. Uh, interesting way to go about it.
Speaker B: I can't tell you. But I heard some conversations and people are going, from a marketing perspective, how can we manage this?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: That is, I believe, a very smart strategy. Got to play devil's advocate. We'll pretend that we're in a Michelin star restaurant. If we are operating at that level, the expectations are astronomical. Yes. Is astronomical. And the problem with that level of food is one, one word. It's consistency.
Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
Speaker B: You had a wonderful experience in the restaurant that you were talking about earlier on. The food presumably, was good, otherwise you would have mentioned something about it. And, uh, what I'm guessing this restaurant has is if it's there for so long, with such a long wait list, is consistency.
Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
Speaker B: Hitting that 8 out of 10 every single time, that's a fantastic objective. But if you can get up to nine, nine and a half, you can't maintain that every single time.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: That's not feasible.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: So it might be better to live in these seven, seven and a half, eight, eight and a half zone. Rob M. Nine, nine and a half, ten zone. Chapter one. There. Two years ago, a friend of mine came over we use it as a good excuse to have a very, very nice meal. Stunning food. I mean, stunning. Not good, not very good. Stunning food. Flavors literally bursting in your mouth. Literally. It felt like there was small explosions going off in my body. Exceptionally good. But it's not something you could afford on a regular basis. Yes, yes, therein lies the problem. Go to the Cheesecake Factory as often as you want. It's accessible, price wise. Once you get into that two mission star, even one Michelin star. But once you're getting to the two, and possibly even the three, the stratospheric heights of three Michelin stars, you can't do that every month because it's too expensive. Um, so there is a good case for bringing. Once you've achieved a star and held it, shown that you could hold it for a couple of years, you've built your reputation. M from a chef's perspective, if they want to go elsewhere, then all they have to do is say, here's the Michelin star that I used, our stars that I used to have. I can do this kind of food, but let's do it at a more accessible price. Let's widen the financial base that we can build us on. And that's something the bank will give you a loan. Far shron starred restaurants go bust with alarming regularity. Yes, yes, alarming regularity. It's not a good financial bet. But from a purely. Forget the reputation. From a purely financial perspective, I actually think if somebody can get to that level, get the star, hold it for two, three years, and then physically say, guys, thank you very much, we do not wish to be listed. Yes, advise Michelin accordingly, they go, no problem, thank you very much, and then move on. You could then build a larger restaurant, develop m higher revenues. Your margins will actually probably be higher because you don't have to get that exclusively expensive ingredient. And it makes it a far more stable financial base onto, on which to build a business.
Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Because you've just, um, you've just reminded me I saw today in one of our local, uh, well, it's not, not local to where I am, but one of our venues here, and they were saying we have a new chef from a Michelin star restaurant.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I think to myself, oh, wow, this food's going to be absolutely phenomenal. So. But I thought it was a really interesting way to, to market this, this new chef, because to me that's putting a heck of a lot of people pressure on them to, to Actually prove because you're going to have some people going, oh, you call this, you know, what do you call that? Um, yeah, it's going to be a lot of pressure. But I thought, look, why not? But then all of a sudden, you know, he may be this phenomenal, well known Michelin star, Chevrolet worked in this restaurant and is able to prove it. So it will boost the, the. It's going to be an interesting. I thought it was a very interesting concept of how to market this person. Person very much.
Speaker B: But again, you're right, you're taking risk. I would say is. And I come back to the word consistency. Consistency is the key to building a strong business in hospitality. Making sure that consistently clean, the quality of the food is consistently good, the service levels are consistent. We say the same thing anywhere I go. One thing I look at is systems, systems, systems. I m need an open closing list. I need to see the scripts for the receptionist when they answer the phone. How many rings is allowed? Is it three, is it five? Yes. And M, you have to break it down. Uh, good companies do that, bad companies don't.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: But you say we have a manager, he takes care of that. Good companies say, here's our system, this is our sop. Follow this, this is how we train you.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: There's a consistency across the board. The employees know exactly what their expectations of them are. There's no misunderstandings.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: And then build a solid business based on that.
Speaker A: Definitely. There's certainly no misinterpretation whatsoever and that's what we're wanting. Well, I think we could talk all night or all day in your circumstances there, but you know, and I loved how you've shared your knowledge and your, you know, some really very interesting, you know, stories that you shared with us to really show us the impact of the hospitality in all its glory, but also in those hard moments and where the team step up with Galileo Hospitality, what is that single most common and most costly mistake that operators make when launching a new hospitality business? Own. And you know, because a lot of them have this great idea but you know, sometimes it works beautifully for a short time or a long time. But what does getting it right actually look like in practice?
Speaker B: Well, first of all, your marketing has to be spot on. You need to have got your market segment defined. M, should your marketing plan attract that market segment predominantly so the people are going to pay your bills, Focus on your team, ensure that they do actually know what they're doing. Again, I have to talk about the Cheesecake Factory. Sorry. We trained our Staff for two months.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Six days before we opened a restaurant. M. Monster. It's a huge labor cost.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: You can only do that if you're a massive company. But if you're a small company opening up, you must ensure that your staff are trained to. For all eventualities.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Consistency. I can't emphasize how consistency is so important. It's what makes your operation tick. It's what brings your customers back. So it's trying to ensure that your food quality is consistently the same. You're doing things exactly the same way. Consistently warm. Consistently well seasoned.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Not overdone. Um, and setting standards. And that's the one word I use again and again and again. Standards. Once you can achieve those on a regular basis, consistently, life becomes much, much easier. Focusing on those three things is fantastic. And then finally listening to your guests responses.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Listening again to find out what happens as they're walking out the door.
Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. And that, as I said, it comes back to that. Listen. We have to listen to each other within our team, but also listen to our guests. And that's how we grow. Oh, and thank you, you so much for. For sharing your wonderful knowledge and wisdom with my guest. I will put in the link. Uh, you know, how to connect with you, but would you like to, you know, is there a question that I haven't asked you that you would like to. To share something about comprehension?
Speaker B: Very comprehensive. No, I mean, what I would say is that good hospitality professionals will have the same wavelength.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: You know, very quickly. Yes. That's my final shot.
Speaker A: Perfect. Well, thank you so much. Owen and I look forward to our, uh, paths crossing again in the future.
Speaker B: Indeed. Great. Challenging.
Speaker A: Thank you. Bye.
Speaker B: Pleasure. Take care. Bye.
Speaker A: Bye. Bye.
Speaker B: Um,
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