The Business of Learning, Episode 98: The Psychology of Motivation

Speaker A: Welcome to the Business of Learning, the Learning Leaders podcast from Training Industry, where we speak with industry experts and thought leaders on all things learning and development.

Speaker B: Hi, and welcome back to the Business of Learning. I'm Michelle Eggleston Short, editor in chief here at Training Industry.

Speaker A: And I'm Sarah Gallo, a senior editor. Today, we're joined by Jess Ekstrom, bestselling author and founder of Mic Drop Workshop and Headbands of Hope, to discuss the psychology of motivation and really what it means for L and D leaders. So, Jess, thank you for joining us.

Speaker C: Um, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker B: Yes, thank you so much for joining us. And I love to get started in, um, how to define motivation kind of in the context of the workplace, I would say.

Speaker C: I think the first thing that I would think about in motivation is what your first thought is when your alarm goes off. When your alarm goes off in the morning, is it this dreaded. My gosh, I can't believe. Like, Groundhog Day. Or is it, oh, I'm really excited. I know what I'm doing, I'm contributing. And so I think motivation starts, like, when our alarm goes off and how we talk to ourselves. Um, you know, there was this really interesting study, uh, in the Harvard Business Review about willpower. And for a while, we thought willpower was like, you know, gas in the tank. Like, this is how much willpower you have in a day, and each time you do something, it gets less and less. And this study showed that willpower isn't as much of a, uh, like, resource that gets depleted over time. It's more of an emotion that we feel. It's an emotion that is, like, triggered by something. And so we've all experienced a time where we had motivation in times that maybe we typically don't. Like, I'm going to get up early on a Sunday before my kids wake up to work on this idea, or I'm going to stay late and train this person, even though it's outside of my role. That wasn't willpower. It was, like, this emotion that we felt. And so that's the kind of motivation that I'm interested in, is one that is connected to an intrinsic feeling and that starts our, uh, alarm goes off.

Speaker B: Yeah. And when we think about workplace learning, um, why would it be important for L and D leaders to kind of pay attention to that psychology behind motivation?

Speaker C: I remember when I first created my, um, training, my job workshop where we train women to become speakers. I was wondering why it wasn't landing. I'm like, but I'm giving them all the information they have, all the data they have, all the downloadable checklists and everything. Why am I not seeing women, like turn it into something big? And that's when I realized I was giving them information without like mental, uh, context of what was possible for them. So for example, today, you know, uh, at uh, Tice, I talked about the difference between being, you know, spotlight speaker and a lighthouse speaker, where spotlights make it about them like house to make about guidance. And so once I started the training with instead of like the three, you know, things in your keynote, but instead getting into the mindset of what a confident speaker is, which they come from service instead of selling, then that's when the information became more digestible. So I don't think that we can really absorb information unless we understand the psychology of how people like to be taught. And it's like, you know, I say, um, it's like when you are saying something really good, but you have bad signal on the phone, it's like, well then no one's hearing it. And so if you can't get to like, how people like to be, how people like to learn, how people like to uh, work together, how people like to absorb information, what's stopping someone from believing they can do this? Then the rest of the things can begin. And a lot of times, like people tell me after mic drop, like that mental stuff was the thing that they needed more than any of the checklists and contracts and things that we help with. It was like, I just needed to know that I could.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's that mental shift like, oh,

Speaker A: it's really about helping learners kind of realize the why. So helping them realize, um, not just what the content is you're trying to teach them, but why it matters. And kind of, um, helping them have that light bulb moment and making those connections.

Speaker C: And we're all human and we're all individual and we all have different places and different stories that we are learning from, but we also are all human. And I get so interested in the psychology of how, uh, we learn like the. And so I think sometimes when we can see everyone as different, but then so we're just like inherently the same. We all want to belong, we all want to feel valued, we all want to feel this. And so sometimes if we can understand like what are the. Is the fundamental needs of humans, then we can get to like everything else in a more of an individual way.

Speaker B: Yeah, that desire to learn is really universal.

Speaker A: Exactly. So yeah, betterment perform and do a good job. You know, people want to go home at the end of the day and feel like they did a good job at work. So that's huge.

Speaker C: But I think what's interesting about what you all do is it's. I think it's vulnerable for adults to say, I don't know. And it's tough for people who are supposed to feel like experts to say, there's a skill that I need to learn, or I don't know what this tech is. I don't know, um, what AI is, or I don't know how to. This team is disengaged, and I'm not sure. There's so much pressure to know everything. Yeah. And so I feel like a huge part of L and D is just helping people realize that the ability to recognize where you need help or recognize, like, I have room to grow here, it's actually such an asset and such a strength. There was a study at MIT about imposter syndrome and how, like, we see imposter syndrome as this terrible thing, but it really actually showed that people who experience feelings of imposter syndrome actually perform better at work. They're more, um, um, community focused. They're more we than I. They ask better questions, they're more curious, as opposed to someone who's like, I got it. Don't worry, I have all the answers. And so I like to say, well, the goal isn't to get rid of imposter syndrome. It's to manage it. It's to almost leverage it. And as long as it's not in the driver's seat, it can be in the car with you.

Speaker B: Mm, love that. Yeah, it's really that, um, vulnerability, like teaching that in the workplace, especially the higher up you go, um, career wise and becoming a leader, like you mentioned it, it can be difficult to say. I don't, I don't have all the answers. But kind of recognizing the humanity in that is your employees want to hear that. They want to connect with you on a human level. And the fact that you don't know is actually really powerful.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think not enough people, um, realize, like, the power of, like, let's figure it out together.

Speaker B: I'm not sure.

Speaker A: Let's. Let's do it together.

Speaker C: Including myself.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I'd love if we could dig into the two different types of motivation. So intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And. And what do those kind of look like? How do those differences show up?

Speaker C: Yeah. So I like to think of extrinsic, as I must do in intrinsic Is I want to do so like mustivation and wantivation. Mustivation, like in extrinsically from like something or someone outside of yourself. So I must do this training because my manager is requiring it. I must like do my taxes, you know, whatever it might be versus intrinsic motivation comes from a want. Like I want to learn how to speak. Uh, I want to learn what it's like to uh, you know, excel in this job. And it, I uh, like to think of extrinsic motivation as checking boxes. And intrinsic motivation is connecting the dots. Like you can say, you can see like if I do this, this matters over here. Whereas extrinsic is like, I got the job, I got the promotion, I got the role, and now it's this. And all of it is this like never ending cycle, this leaky bucket that has you keep pouring water into and you don't realize it's coming out and you're like, I'm putting so much into this. Why is it not working? But I think where, um, where I don't want to lose people is that extrinsic motivation is bad. It's not. I think that there's like healthy competition and wanting to win and wanting a trophy can be great, but it's about the ratio that you give it. Like how much of your motivation comes from extrinsic? How much of your motivation comes from intrinsic? I know this is hard questions to really quantify, but if you say like, well, everything I do is based off of extrinsic factors, then it gets tough. Um, and the irony I think in all of this is people who are intrinsically motivated, who love the process, who love like the practice lights off, shooting basketball hoops when it's supposed to be closed. Those are the people that get the greatest extrinsic rewards because it's, they just uh, the, the willpower is connected to emotion. It's something that they deeply love. And so I like to say, well it's like a lot of times all the extrinsic things that we're looking for, the fame, the recognition, the money, the status, happen more effectively, more efficiently on the other side of intrinsic, like when

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Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: When we're looking at intrinsic motivation, what are some maybe common training methods that maybe undermine intrinsic motivation and we may not realize like how can we best leverage it?

Speaker C: I think that making sure to take snapshots of moments when you can connect your work to an impact. A lot of times when we're doing something at scale, the like individual person that we just helped, you know, get better leadership or get better speaking is just like one in a million M. And so if we can zero in on some of like just those snapshots as a team. I talked about this, um, today at TICE where we call it a smile file. And anytime we get any kind of reminder or evidence that what we do works, we put it in our shared drive. It's a smile file. And then at uh, you know, the beginning of our all hands, each quarter, we start with a smile file because we're going to get into all the nitty gritty, the where we made money, where we lost money, profit margins, things that need to be improved and it can just be again a never ending cycle of like nothing's ever enough. And so if we can start with actually like you're in accounting, you don't ever talk to anyone, but you're a part of an organization that produced this outcome. Like this person who was able to give a TED Talk or who was able to, you know, lead a meeting at work, uh, you're a part of that. No matter like what you your role is, it's all part of the same mission. So I think an intrinsic technique could be a smile file and like figuring out like what are those stories and the moments that we can remind people, yeah, what I do matters.

Speaker A: Yeah, like that seems really powerful, especially maybe when morale is down or there's like a big change or shift going on. Just reminding people, like, look at this impact that we've already had, um, and see where we can grow.

Speaker C: I think that's why people get nervous too with like mergers, acquisitions or changes in leadership because it's like, is what they want still what I'm working towards. And so I think that, that, uh, you know, headbands vote. My first company got acquired, and I feel like that was a. Not a regret I have, but, like, something I wish I would have done differently is like, ensure the team that was still there and ensure the buyer, you know, or had this, the same North Star as I did. Uh, and, you know, now I see it from, like, what. How, you know, they felt my importance was, like, they all have jobs. Like, they're. It's great. And not, am I still working towards the same thing that I signed up for? Like, I didn't answer that question for them. And now I realize how important that is.

Speaker B: Identifying, like, the values.

Speaker C: Yeah. Like, we're still working on this, and if that's changing, great. But tell me, because I need to decide if that still works for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, from a psychological standpoint, could you dig into some of the key drivers of intrinsic motivation that L and D leaders should really be keeping in mind when designing programs?

Speaker C: So I think that the self determination theory that I talked about in, um, I talked about today. And again, I was laughing because when I was on stage, usually when I get into self determination theory, I can see, like, eyes glaze over, faces go like, okay, time to get on my phone. She's talking about theory. Everyone in the room at Tice was like, I'm all in. Tell me. Yeah, theory is theory. Yeah, self determination theory is, you know, by Desi and ryan in the 80s, and they looked at, like, what self motivates people? How can people be intrinsically motivated? There were three needs, three psychological needs that they discovered. So autonomy, feeling like they're in control, connectedness, feeling like they're connected to people, and competence, feeling like they're good at it. Now, of course, this is like, not a just checklist that you can go off of, but it is a direction that you can head. And so, um, I also give three questions of, like, who can I help? What can I control? How can I do it best? That help answer those? Uh, check those three boxes. And so they said, if these three psychological needs can be met, feeling like we're in control, feeling like we're connected, feeling like we're good at it, then that influences our ability to be intrinsically motivated and be self determined. So I don't think anything is cut and dry or black and white, but I at least love to know the science and the direction of, like, where does my head need to be in order to be intrinsically motivated? And self determination theory is it.

Speaker B: Yeah, love, um, that love to hear like, how can learning professionals kind of channel that into their training programs and create these learning experience that really get to the heart of that motivation?

Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, I think that, um, it was so interesting hearing Ken talk before me today, uh, about, like, in person and virtual and what's like, trending in learning development. And I think that people need to be able to see people. I think that virtual definitely has its place still. But I think the connectedness part of self determination theory is really hard to do sometimes over Zoom or, like, remote environments. So. And I'm speaking from someone who. I have a remote team, and we. And I've run a remote business. We did all of our trainings and all of our events virtually since 2018. And we just this year had our first ever in person eventually, where I was like, oh, this is why people do this. I was seeing the price tag of, like, a venue, of this, that food and beverage and lodging, and not seeing, like, the actual, like, ROI of connectedness. And so I think there's so many things, but that's just one thing I'm seeing. You know, in the age of AI, how can you bring people to people together? Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, Jess, I feel like one common challenge we hear from our listeners is that learners will go through a training, and then it's lost after the fact. You know, there's not really that behavior change, um, a week later or a month later back on the job. So I'd love if you could share kind of what role managers play in reinforcing, um, or hindering motivation after training is delivered.

Speaker C: I think, and I think about this a lot as a leader, uh, myself of how I let what I learned trickle down. Maybe not by, like, framework, structure, 360s, whatever, but by example. Um, and I know this probably sounds really cheesy, but I think that we have to emulate what we want our people to do. And I found myself, like, sometimes in zoom meetings, like, with my team, like, trying to do something else, like, while being with them. And, uh, and I saw other people doing that. I was like, that's so annoying. Like, that. Just we're on this meeting. And then I realized, oh, I am also doing that. And so they feel like it's okay because, of course they're watching it. And so I think the manager's role or supervisor or anything is just to lead by example, and which can sometimes be a gut check. And I know it was for me, when I was like, oh, I'm not giving them my full attention, so I need to look at myself. Before I tell them to do something.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's great advice. Definitely lead by example.

Speaker C: I know and I'm just like it's so uh, overdone but I feel like it really is one of those things. It's easier said than done. You know, it's that self awareness and. Yeah, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Well Jess, it was great talking to you today. How can our listeners get in touch with you if they like to reach out?

Speaker C: Yes, um, JesseXtrom.com is great. I'm also on LinkedIn if you're interested in any of our like speaking trainings you can go to mike dropworkshop.com and we would love to hear from you.

Speaker A: For more resources on this topic, check out the episode description or visit the show notes um on our website@trainingindustry.com podcast and don't forget to rate and review us wherever you tune in to the business of learning. Until next time.