139 - Limitless Possibilities with Stuart Powell

Speaker A: Reminding ourselves of the power of breathing is incredibly grounding and helpful. And then mentally reminding ourselves to trust ourselves, because I think in those moments of discomfort, we often doubt ourselves.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Smash your own Ceiling podcast, helping you to up level your thinking, elevate your success and create the life you really want. I'm your host, Barbara Nixon, and your next level leadership journey starts here. Hey, it's Barbara. How are you doing? Hope you've had a fantastic week and everything's good at your end. Now today I am sharing a great conversation that I had with the fab Stuart Powell. Now I'll tell you a bit about Stuart and then I'll tell you a little bit about what we're nattering about. So Stuart is co founder and CEO of Compass Partnership International, which is a consultancy dedicated to accelerating the human performance of organizations. Now, I've known Stuart for, I don't know, maybe coming up to a year, can't remember, and we've got to know each other well and we've, we have some really good conversations, very meaty, where we get our heads together, which is great. So we have a little bit of a brainstorming session and we kind of unpick things. And so I really wanted him to jump on this, this on an episode with us to have a proper good chat. Now today we talk about why Stuart doesn't like to be in a box. So I don't, don't mean literally. I mean he doesn't like to be confined to, um, just one thing. He likes explore new Directions and he likes to be open to new opportunities and new possibilities, which is great. And that led to all sorts of other bits and pieces in our chat. We talk about why we think we should lean into being uncomfortable and what, what that actually looks like. And we both talk about different experiences where we were. We both felt really, really uncomfortable. For Stuart, it was when he was stuck on a high rope, kind of, you know, one of those mazes that, you know when you get in the trees like that you can kind of go through walkways at the top of trees and things. Mine was when I tried stand up comedy. I ended up loving it, by the way. But, um, uh, when I felt really nervous and what I did about that and ah, we talk about. So we lean into discomfort and what that looks like. We talk about the nature of the world now in terms of creating echo chambers and how we need to try and get ourselves out of that and look for different ways of thinking and different ways of looking for new opportunities. And so Much more. Honestly, there is such a good chat, so I can't wait for you to have a listen. Let me know what you think. Please feel free to share it with somebody that you know and share the love and hit the subscribe button so that you don't miss an episode. All right, have a great rest of the week, and I'll see you soon. Hi, Stuart. How are you doing?

Speaker A: Hey, Barbara. Great to see you. Thanks for having me today.

Speaker B: You're welcome. Right. I was watching the Kylie documentary on Kylie Minogue on Netflix. Um, if you're listening to this in the future, then I don't know whether it's still on Netflix, but it certainly was yesterday. How do you feel about Kylie?

Speaker A: I like Kylie, loved her, and grew up with her as a. As a kid. You got to know her songs and the fact that she's still going and has kept reinventing herself.

Speaker B: This is it. I know, right? So I think we can talk about that.

Speaker A: All right. I haven't seen it, by the way.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You need to see documentary.

Speaker B: Okay. But, you know Kylie. But the thing that, um. I paused it because she said something, and I said to Dave, oh, my God, that reminds me of Stuart.

Speaker A: Well, I'm intrigued, to say the least. Now.

Speaker B: Yeah. You were in a Kylie Minogue documentary, or at least your phrase. She said, I don't like boxes. And, uh, you know, in all the time that I've known you, you must have said that a gazillion times to me. I don't like boxes, Barbara. I don't like boxes. What do you mean?

Speaker A: Oh, what a question. It's interesting, isn't it? Uh, well, I think it is, because boxes, on the one hand, they're really helpful, aren't they? Because if you think about it, they. They put edges around something. They def. And I think, here's the thing. For me, they define something as it is there and then. I've always personally struggled with having a box put around my identity because that has kept changing and growing and evolving. And I think at its core, that's why I've always struggled and disliked the concept of being put in a metaphorical box, so to speak. M. Because who I am and, um, what I'm doing today, to me, isn't the entirety of who I am and what I'm capable of and what I will be doing in the future. And I can't fully describe or articulate that today, looking into the future, because it hasn't yet happened. But that. And you can see me here on the screen. I'm kind Of I'm doing this. And when I look back and I think about the journey I guess I have been on, um, in life through to this point today, something that's always been really important to me is growth, is learning, is development, is transformation. So as a process, if you will, it's like, well, okay, I can take a snapshot, I can take a picture of, uh, what that is today, but it's in context of a moment in time. And that picture today, yes, is a representation of everything that's happened before and how I see myself today. But it's equally something that will continue to emerge, grow and develop. And I haven't yet found a, uh, box that allows me to do that perpetually, if that makes sense. I don't know. Does that make sense?

Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. I. It makes totally sense. Total sense to me because I'm not dissimilar to that. And I was gonna. As I was listening to you, the thought that crossed my mind, Stuart, was as a business owner, because you're the MD of your company. Do you call yourself the md? Is that what your title is?

Speaker A: CEO?

Speaker B: CEO to md, but CEO, um. And how did you. Because you. In terms of niching. You know, I'm thinking back when I first started my business and everybody said, oh, you've got to. Niche, you've got Denise, you've got to. And I found that so. So such a, uh. I found it suffocating, you know, like I was being squashed into a. We use the term box because we've started it now, so it's a box that I didn't want. I didn't. I felt as though it was. It was limiting. And if you think everything about my brand is about it not being limited, it was limitless. You know, smash your own ceiling is about literally getting out of the, uh. You're removing the blocks. So putting myself into a box felt like I was. I wasn't. I was discounting all the evolution that could come.

Speaker A: I. I think it's such a, um, funny. Not in a funny haha way, but it's a. You know, when you think about how important language is, you know, we use words to describe something. It creates a sense of meaning about what something is. And so we. We find words, use words, or choose words that describe that box. And I'm going to sort of expand this concept a little bit here to go from box to identity. And you know, when I think about the work I do with leaders, teams or organizations, and you look at behavior, you look at culture, you look at Identity. And what I think as humans, we are really quick to do is use language that is familiar, to use language that describes the way something was or maybe the way something is. But that doesn't mean that it's the language that's going to create the future, uh, that we are wanting to create and move into as we go forwards. And so we tell ourselves stories, don't we? You know, as people, we tell ourselves stories about who we are, the journey we've been on, the highs that we've had, the lows, the challenges, the journey that we've been on. And I think it's very easy for us as humans to find ourselves telling a story using language that maybe unconsciously or inadvertently reinforces an identity that maybe served a purpose in the past, and maybe it's serving some sort of purpose today. But is it the language? Is it the identity? Is it the box, so to speak, that is going to allow you to continue to grow and emerge into the person, into the leader, into the, you know, the. The husband, the wife, the partner, the whatever hat we might be wearing? Is that going to allow me to grow and thrive into the future? Or is it keeping me where I am today? And there may be people listening today that are, uh, entirely happy with where they've been, where they've come from, where they are today. And that's not to say I'm not, because I am massively grateful and appreciative of the journey I've been on, um, the challenges that I've either chosen to overcome or that life has just thrown my way to overcome, the friends, the mentors, the guys that I've had who've helped shape me to become who I am today. And genuinely, Barbara, I am so happy and grateful for all of that and everything that I have today. I just look into the future with both that huge. I can't describe it in any better way, just that, uh, huge happiness and joy for right now knowing or wondering what more might be possible. What more could I be capable of? What ceiling have I smash before that's opened up? Uh, another ceiling that I wasn't even aware of, that I was coming up against. But this is now the next ceiling, or the next test or the next trial tribulation, the next challenge to overcome, which I think so often isn't necessarily about the external stuff and circumstances. It's what we've got going on inside of ourselves and how we see ourselves. And that ceiling that we unconsciously and inadvertently put in the way. Thinking I've reached the Limit I like to. I'm just always curious. I wonder what's beyond that.

Speaker B: Oh, every single day, literally, that is what I get up out of bed to look at that I'm gonna want to unpick some of this stuff. Right. As you've said a few things that I am curious about and, and um, is interesting. Firstly, I think you're absolutely right in terms of identity. And if we kind of shift that box to be to mean identity, we all have these ideas and you write stories that we tell ourselves of. This is who we are, this is what we're able to achieve. This is how much success we're able to achieve. This is what the people around us, like my family, you're able to achieve. Ah. And the stories that I've heard along the way from people that worked with in some capacity or another, said, oh, um, people in my family, we don't do that. Or I didn't go to this school or I didn't, I grew up in this place. Or you know, I didn't go to. I don't have a degree, I don't, you know, and we put limits on ourselves that we can't do a certain something because of something else. And we've all got in our families, I'm sure, a family motto or you know, belief systems that just get passed around, you know, just daytoday. Things like, oh, money doesn't grow on trees and the grass isn't always greener and don't forget where you came from and you can't blow your own trumpet and you can't, you know, there's uh, all sorts of things like that that I'm sure we all know. And these all form our belief systems and our uh, and part of our identity. And if we're not careful, then they can create the ceilings for us.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: They can create the blocks and they stop us from actually evolving in a way that that's what we're here to do. And this is where we get the friction, right. The tension between, oh, I really want this, or I am now working at a certain level, but my God, I can't. I'm um, getting all the feelings like self doubt or feeling out of my depth or whatever it might be. It doesn't feel comfortable. I feel as though I've lost my confidence. And usually it's because of what's going on behind the scenes. Right? Yeah. And we're talking about evolution, Right. You know, us allowing ourselves the chance to evolve. Yeah. And we know about evolution as a thing. So why can't we, as individuals evolve?

Speaker A: I don't know whether we can't evolve, but.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's not that. Yeah, it's not that I think that we can't. It's just a, uh, thought.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Why don't we allow ourselves to evolve?

Speaker A: Because I think for a word you use a few seconds earlier, and it's that word uncomfortable, because it feels uncomfortable. And I think that is our greatest. It's almost like, you know, we're clearly not born with an instruction manual about how to work as a human being.

Speaker B: Okay, that'd be great, wouldn't it?

Speaker A: Figure it out. Try to figure it out as we. As we go along. And I think for me, one of the things I've learned or realized is when we are feeling. When I am feeling uncomfortable, that is, it's almost like nature's greatest biomechanical feedback mechanism that's saying, hang on a minute, Stuart. Uh, there's something here for you to be paying attention to.

Speaker B: Yeah, agreed, agreed.

Speaker A: And, you know, it's like, as. As human beings, if we've got an easy way of doing something or the right way, which one are we going to choose? It's like, well, we tend to follow that path of least resistance. We tend to do the easy thing, even though we know the better thing is to do the right thing. But the right thing is often harder and. Or more uncomfortable. And I think that is our opportunity to literally lean into something that is feeling really uncomfortable, to really assess, is it as bad as I'm making it out to be? Like, we have a phenomenal ability to project into the future and hypothesize, profess that everything is absolutely going to go wrong. Like, we have this.

Speaker B: I think. I always think it's amazing, isn't it? But I'm gonna age myself massively now, Stuart, that we think that we. We're all like Mystic Meg, right? You won't remember that because you're younger than I am, but, you know, we always think. But if we can think of the negatives, because we've all got this. This hardwired negative bias, right? We can all think of all the ways that things go wrong, but trying to just stop for a second and equally think of all the ways that it could go right now, that becomes a challenge. It's almost as if. Hang on a minute. I've really got to just really think, you know, think about that. But just to go back again a second to the feeling of discomfort. You're right. It's where it's a Neon sign that we need to be paying attention to something. But we've somewhere along the way, generationally, we've misdiagnosed what that feel, that feeling is for. Instead we think it's something to run away from and we want, we don't want it to stop because it's not a nice feeling. We think we're in danger, we're not safe anymore. What can we do? Our uh, fight off like kicks in. It's like, go, go away, go away, go. I'll do everything in my power to stop, stop this feeling of discomfort. I want to go back to feeling good again. Yeah, but you know, it's human nature, right?

Speaker A: Do you think Barbara and I, I don't know. But do you think we've made it? I say we, but you know, is, is humans as humans, it's society. Have we made it a little bit too easy in general to just take the comfortable route?

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, without a doubt. That's if you look. Everything in our society now is designed to make our life more comfortable. Look at the houses that we live in. Look at the central heat if we're lucky. Obviously not all of us, but I'm going to. In certainly in our society we've got central heating and you've got double glazing and you've got comfy sofas and you've got AI and you've got a computer that's more it, you know, has got more information on it than they used to send somebody to space, uh, in our pockets and everything. Everything is designed to make our life more comfortable. I was thinking about this in terms of AI just to take a bit of a detour for a second that I remember and maybe you do too. I remember a time where you could remember all your phone numbers. I remembered all my phone numbers. Everything. I could still remember my first phone number. I could. I have had jobs where I've had to drive the length and breadth of the country without sat nav, just with a scrappy bit of paper, usually a post it that was on the passenger seat of the, the exit on the motorway. And somehow I had to find that my way. I've done that up and down the country and I can still remember my plot my way to certain places without use of sat nav. But yet you sat nav. And I've spoken to people now who just use sat nav to go to work and don't know how to get to work unless they've got sat nav. Nowadays we don't. I don't know People's numbers. Seriously, if I got arrested, then I'm going to be in there for a while because I don't know anybody's number. And we've lost that ability. So everything in our life, in answer to your question, is designed for comfort. And also, especially nowadays where narrowing or create, going back to boxes, our echo chambers getting more and more, uh, what's the word that I'm looking for? I'm going to use the word narrow, you know, as in it's more obvious. Rather. Everything in our life is designed to put us in. Into an echo chamber. Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, I wonder, Barbara, is that what makes. Is that one of the things that even in this environment that we find ourselves living in today, you know, what is it that's still going to give us as leaders, as people who are, uh, wanting to make a positive difference or a difference to. Whether it's our customers, whether it's to our teams, whether it's to, you know, society more broadly. Those of us who lean into that curiosity find ways to make things deliberately uncomfortable. Not because my life is at risk, but because pushing those boundaries, testing them very deliberately, very intentionally, to widen that, uh, echo chamber, to look, to break down the walls of that echo chamber, to put myself in scenarios and situations or with people or circumstances, that means I am experiencing something new. I am piecing together thoughts, ideas, insights, relationships, connections. I'm building something that. That hasn't been done before, and that's okay, because everything at one point had never been done before. Humans, I think, were remarkably well designed to actually cope. Not just cope, but actually thrive in this environment. I think being aware of what those almost inadvertent blockers and limiters are on our ceiling, uh, or that box that we are putting ourselves in. I think for me, we can choose to have that. And that's okay. But if you've. For me. But if I've got the, the awareness about what box I'm currently finding myself in, what those edges could be, and, uh, to have choice, you know, is that where I am choosing to stay? And if so, that is absolutely great. But are there other things I could be doing that is enabling me to, to challenge my understanding of myself, to grow or develop or, you know, piece things together in a way that hadn't been been done before? Because it's uncomfortable.

Speaker B: This is where having practices for yourself really comes in, doesn't it? Because there's a lot of things at play, uh, whilst I was listening to you, things like it can. It's. I'm as you know, and as the. Because of the nature of the business that I'm in, I'm very into personal development and have been since I was a child. Yeah. So it is ingrained into who I am. But saying that even though I'm very into. I've got an inherent love of learning. I read all the time. I'm, um, listening to podcasts, I'm talking to amazing people like you. You know, I've built my life around that. Essentially. There are still some days where, where you just. Your habits are just dialed up to 10. Yeah. And if we're not careful, especially think. I'm thinking of leaders. Right. As leaders. When you're running a business and you're doing all the things and you're wearing all the hats and you're still a dad, a mom, a husband, a wife, all of the things that we have to do as well as work. Right. Days can turn into weeks, and weeks can turn into months. And before you know it, you go, oh, geez, you know, I haven't really done anything. I haven't. I need to do something. And this is where, again, as humans, we've got, we're very habit driven. You know, so much of our day is habitual. So unless we've got those practices to go. Hang on a minute. Whether it's every single week or every single day to just sit down and go, right. I just want to do a bit of a reflective exercise and just see where I'm at right now and see whether 1. Where have I run away from discomfort because I'm human, Not because I'm judging myself, just because I'm a person and there's a lot going on. Where have I run away? Where have I played small or safe? Right. What have I done to just resist something? Which again, we all do. No judgment. Right. And what would have happened if we had the Groundhog Day and we did it again? What would it. And it's just like three simple questions. And I'm sure you could think of more. Do you sit down and just. With a notebook and pen and sit and think. Right. What does that actually look like? So we're in a pattern of breaking our own patterns.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. We have, we build in and bake into our, uh, life some, um, behaviors that allow us to, to see things from a different perspective.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think there's a couple of thoughts that, ah, that triggers. I mean, the first is being aware that there's a pattern to break. And even if you haven't got the questions, just pressing pause. Whether that's daily, weekly, monthly. M. If you think about it, there are some natural cycles and rhythms in the year, uh, into life. And I think all, um, successful businesses and leaders that I work with and teams, not all the time, but more often than not find a way to do what you've just been describing. And sometimes you need somebody like you and I, Barbara, to come along even for each other, you know, because we are still human. Yes, we can do that for our clients, but equally we are still human as well. And um, recognizing that habit that we all have and finding ways to be aware of them. And we can't do that without, I don't think, anyway, without pressing pause and actually wanting to do it and then doing it.

Speaker B: Agreed. 100. I agree too. It's having that intention to put that in place and then doing it, I think also dialing up your self awareness about what discomfort looks like for you. So I, I remember doing this piece of work for myself many years ago and I've done it with lots of people since then. About, let's just look at this. Your own personal symptoms for when you're uncomfortable. So for some, for me, I feel it in my gut, without a doubt. I feel it. My God. Other people I know feel it, get tense shoulders, they might tense the jaws, they might feel, you know, they might clinch their finger, their hands. There's all sorts of different ways. But feel start to look at what your personal symptoms are so that when you're, when you're in the moment, you can start to recognize it. And then when you see it and notice it go, hang on a minute. What am I resisting? What is uncomfortable here? And I've got two choices now. I can lean in and just see what happens or I can back out. Both the choices, neither's right or wrong. Right. And um, obviously it's situational. It depends on what the situation is. And I'm not saying lean in when something's not safe, but lean in to something that might be a growth opportunity, that might just feel a bit scary in the moment. But, you know, let's just see what happens.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's, it's reminded me of something I remember realizing years and years ago, Barbara. And, uh, I once did this high ropes course, you know. Have you ever done one of those?

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh yeah, I've got a story about that.

Speaker A: Well, very briefly I remember going that there was this one part and I was so nervous. You know, there was this one piece of rope which of course I Wasn't trusting. So that was, you know, lesson number one. And, um, I, um, was rocking. The ropes were rocking. I can't remember how high off the ground you I was. And I remember looking down thinking, oh, it's sort of impending ending, doom and death and heart rate is racing. The sweat is pouring out of me. You know, you're just thinking, it's the end of the world. And I remember the instructor and he did a couple of things for me which not only at the time, completely changed my experience of those ropes. It was a great metaphor for me for. For life moving forwards. And it was simply, number one, breathe. That's the last thing sometimes thinking about in that moment. He's like, okay, look, there's no clock ticking here. It's not a race. Just breathe. And so getting control of our physicality and breath started to help me put myself back in control of me and my body, number one. And then number two, he just said, trust yourself and lean out. Push against the ropes that you're trying to hold really close to you because you fear everything is going to go wrong. And it's like, I don't have a choice here. I need to do something differently. And I remember pushing out against these two ropes either side of me, and I reached a point where they stopped shaking. And all of a sudden I was peaceful, I was calm, and I was in control, and I was able to walk along this piece of rope across to the other side. I remember getting there, I thought, wow. I mean, not only have I done something that two minutes earlier I thought was going to be impossible, biggest thing I remember taking from that is that I have tried to sort of use to inform my thinking for myself, for me, when in situations like that is, yes, breathe and trust yourself. And I'd forgotten to do both of those things. We kind of breathe on autopilot. I think reminding ourselves of the power of breathing is incredibly grounding and helpful. And then mentally reminding ourselves to trust ourselves, because I think in those moments of discomfort, we often doubt ourselves. Does that make sense?

Speaker B: But without. Yeah, without a doubt. There's a great quote from the book Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers says, I'll handle it. And I love that it's just three words. Three words that are so true. Because no matter what you've done in your life, and it might have been horrendous, it might have been hard, it might have been, you know, proper uphill struggle, but you've handled it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And everything that will come, you'll Handle it, uh, no matter what. And I, I, when I read those, those words many years ago, I mean, it's a classic, it's a great book. Anyway, uh, I'll put the link in the show notes if you want to grab it. But, um, you can't go wrong, you know, in, in the moment you think, well, I'll handle it. Whatever comes, I'll just deal with it. I'll handle it. Because. Of course you will. Of course you will. I have a similar story. I went through a period of getting stage fright, which is being on stage or in front of audiences. Ever since I was little. You know, I was like a drama kid when I was little. So it's been on stage. It wasn't unusual for me. I'd always been, uh, delivering and speaking on stages. And then all of a sudden one day, I think it was back, oh, I don't know, M 2011, 12, something like that. Somewhere around that time, I started getting stage fright. And in order to get out, to get out of that pattern, I started to push myself out of my comfort zone. When it came to be on stages, I thought, I'm either going to have to find a different thing to do, a different industry, or I'm gonna have to deal, deal with it. And one of the things that I did was do stand up. And I went and did stand up. And honestly, before I went on stage, I've never been so scared ever. Uh, right. And I've got a high rope story similar to yours, right? But I've never been so scared. And I used it as an experiment because in that moment I was properly leaning into discomfort. And one, it was, there was no risk attached to it. It didn't matter whether I bombed. Nothing mattered. You know, there was, uh, there was about, I don't know, 100 people in the audience. It will matter. I still go home to the same house, I'd still be married to the same guy. You know, it's all, no risk. So all that was good. But I remember thinking, right, I could feel my heart beating out of my chest. And I zoned in on that and I went, okay, what does it actually feel like? And, uh, my brain was going, your heart's beating out of your chest, you're going to have a heart attack. And then I, I kind of zoned in and really looked at it and I thought, actually, it's all right. That's, no, it's not too problem bad. It doesn't feel bad. I can cope with that. And I thought, right, um, my breathing's really shallow. And I slowed myself down. I thought, okay, what do I need to do now? And just like you said, I'll just focus on deep breath here. Just focus on deep breath. What's next? Okay, my palms are a bit sweaty. Right. What can I do about that? You know? So I went to the bathroom. I said, uh, I washed my hands. I thought, do I feel a bit better? Okay, I feel a bit better. So one by one, I literally just focused on a different symptom. Yeah. So. But. And then I just kept saying, well, actually, this is really exciting. I'm doing something new. This is exciting. And excitement and fear is. It's got the same physiological symptoms as, you know, so once I've got on stage, I had an absolute ball, you know, I just loved it. And my stage fright kind of just dissolved. But the. The whole process that I went through beforehand was so powerful for me because it showed me. It gave me the opportunity to just one by one, unpick each symptom, you know? But you have to really force yourself to do it, because people say to me all the time, oh, I can't change my mind. Yeah, you can. This is the beauty of being human. We've got the ability to just change our mind. It might take effort, but just like you did, you. You changed your mind about, oh, I can't breathe. I'm not breathing. Oh, I'm going to breathe now. I'm going to change my mind about staying here. I'm going to lean forward. I'm going to do something different. And you had that fantastic experience that I bet outweighed your fear, uh, of just staying there. With that, you had clarity, you had peace. You said everything was still. That was magical. Right. You gave that to yourself. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think you know what you were just describing there, Barbara. You know, when you pay attention to the things that are going on around us, there are some clues, there's some patterns to this thing called success, whatever it might be for any of us. And I think one of the most powerful things that we can do is learn about ourselves and how we operate as humans and actually how we accidentally, inadvertently get in our own way, sometimes for very good reason. But equally, there's times when. Sometimes that, uh, those habits do us a disservice. And, um, I think there's nothing more exciting or enjoyable or empowering than at least having the choice about, what is it? I. If this is what's happening now and this is what's happened before, what do I want that's going to be different or better in the future and how can I play a role in enabling that to happen?

Speaker B: That's, uh. I think that's a great place to end. Stuart, how can people get hold of you?

Speaker A: They can find me on LinkedIn. Uh, StuartJ. Powell they can drop me an email. S powellcompasspartnership.com always happy to. To chat. Love this, Barbara. Thanks.

Speaker B: No problem. I am. I'm going to put all the links in the show notes for you as well as, um, a link to the book that we mentioned, which is. It's an oldie, but it's a goodie. I like the old personal development books a lot and I know me and you just. Yeah, we've got, um, our bookshelves stacked with them, haven't we? But thank you for hanging out with me today, Stuart.

Speaker A: So welcome. Thank you too. Uh, until next time,

Speaker B: thanks for listening to the Smash your own Ceiling podcast. If you're ready for more, go to barbaranixon.co.uk See you soon.