142 - How to build successful teams with Dahlia Stroud

Speaker A: If why I need to get to the other side is because there's an emergency on the other side that I need to be a part of. And uh, many is no objects and there's a helicopter waiting for me. Actually my how I'm going to get there is I'm going to jump in that helicopter, which is very quick compared to the bridge. If my why I want to get to the other side is because actually my lifetime goal was to swim across the bay, then actually that's the route I'm going to take. And until we know, uh, our why, we can't kind of define our how or what we need to do.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Smash youh Own Ceiling podcast, helping you to up level your thinking, elevate your success and create the life you really want. I'm your host, Barbara Nixon. And your next level leadership journey starts here. Hey, it's Barbara. How are you doing? Hope you're having a fantastic week. Now today I have the pleasure of sharing a great conversation with the lovely Dahlia Stroud. Now, Dahlia helps organizations improve commercial performance by strengthening capability, alignment and day to day leadership. Her work sits at the intersection of people, process and commercial delivery, ensuring teams have the clarity, confidence and competence to execute well and, um, deliver commercial results. She's also the host of, of the Stressed but well Dressed podcast, which explores the link between clothing, confidence and mindset through conversation spanning strategy, psychology, sustainability, inclusion and consumer behavior. And I was also a guest on Dahlia's podcast and it was great fun. Go and check it out. So we had such a good conversation, honestly. We talked all about how to make the perfect team and how to actually lead the perfect team. We talked about how teams work well together and where teams often fall down. We talk about the importance of direction and how to actually get that direction, especially when you've got multiple teams from different areas working together. We talk about how to manage micro cultures that you might see in teams and the thinking of what's in it for me. How do you actually manage that when individuals are thinking, well, this is great, but what's actually in it for me? And we talk about the importance of good positioning for a team to really get aligned and why. Knowing the why is so, so powerful. I can't wait for you to have a listen. It's full of so many gems. So let's dive in. Hey Dalia, how are you doing?

Speaker A: All better to be here.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm really pleased that you're here because we've not known each other very long. We got introduced by the lovely Richard Pascoe. But it turns out that I know your mum, which is always. I like it when we've got a small world thing going.

Speaker A: Everyone knows my mum, um, wherever I go. And in fact, one time we even were completely busted because I was on gardening leave and I was quite young at the time and I looked really young, uh, at about 23, 24. Um, I'd left Nestle and I went to Hong Kong with my mum on a trade mission and I was kind of acting as her secretary, maybe I was married at the time, so I might have had different surname to, uh, her. And at the end of, like, this big presentation, one of the guys just looked at us and went, are you Paula's daughter? Oh, we're busted. We're so busted.

Speaker B: Oh, bless. No, I loved it when you, when you sent me a message saying, you know my mum. And also, we've got other things in common because we had. We've got. We have. We've worked at the same companies as well, haven't we?

Speaker A: Yeah, same. Same companies and definitely same industry as well. So there's a lot of people who have worked the retail industry in Yorkshire. And actually my husband, who doesn't work in the industry, whenever we go out somewhere and we bump into someone from asda, which happens pretty much every time I leave the house, he's like, how many people in Yorkshire have actually worked at Al? I'm like, yeah, most of them. Most of them.

Speaker B: I think it's part and parcel. It's part of the law. If you're going to work, if you're going to come and live in Yorkshire, you've got to work at some point. But we were there at different times. Yes. So. So today, uh, we've got an interesting conversation because we're going to talk about teams and really we're talking about communication within teams, haven't we? And this is a topic so close to my heart because I see where this works brilliantly and I also see where it. When it doesn't. So I bet you've had similar experiences.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I bet you. Look, I've worked in lots of teams, I've led lots of teams and I've seen, uh, everything from kind of high performance, high performing teams that work really well and really efficiently together, and also very dysfunctional teams as well. I will say most teams are dysfunctional to some, some extent, particularly in big businesses, particularly in today's world, where the pace of change is immense and that often means changing direction. I'm going to say pivoting. And being kind of really able to adapt. But that's not always easy for teams to do together, particularly in kind of bigger, more traditional businesses. And I think people are fascinating, aren't they? And when you put a group of people together, all of them, and I always think everyone is a demographic of one, so everyone, their very own unique person, you start to see either magic happening or an eruption or a combination of both.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's so true. When, uh, people are interesting. I mean, absolutely fascinating. Well, I wouldn't be in this space if I didn't find people fascinating. But the. You're right. Everyone is a demographic of one. And even though we might have psychometric testing or profiling or anything like that in order to make the perfect team, do you think that's actually possible?

Speaker A: No, uh, I mean, I don't think the perfect team exists. And I definitely don't think you can kind of say, actually we've got these two red people, two blue people, yellow and green in terms of a disc profile, or actually we've got this makeup of Myers Briggs, and therefore we've got the perfect mix to be able to work together. Because I think we're all, as I said, so nuanced as individuals. And, you know, we can be one thing in one culture and something very different in different culture, or because of our life stage or because of the context that we're operating in, or because of the pressures of the organization that we're working in. And I think all of those things influence how we feel at any one time. And therefore the input that we give to a team and what we need from it as well. Because the whole point of a team is that it's interdependency, isn't it? It's about not doing something on your own. So actually those combination of people and how they work together, the support that is required and also the tension and the challenge that is also required. And sometimes a good thing in a team will look different every single time.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's not. You don't just get that. That cookie cutter approach, do you? Everything changes all the time depending on the. The stages that people are at. So where do you reckon that most teams fall down?

Speaker A: I think most teams fall down or where I've seen teams fall down is not because of the people in them. You often have good people who got will and, uh, sometimes got skill as well, but a lot of time it's because of a lack of strategic direction and it's a lack of unity in terms of. This is the path that we're going or even just this is the destination that we need to get to. So when you don't have a common purpose in terms of this is what we're working for together, it's. I think that that is the biggest challenge because then you start to carve different paths or you start to think about different success factors and that's when personal motivations get involved. But actually when you can create a um, really clear this is where we want to get to together, um, and then alignment about how you're going to get there, that's where I think we start to see successful teams. So to your question is when they don't know where they're going?

Speaker B: M I completely agree and I've seen that happen so often and often what happens when they don't have that direction and sometimes, and I'm sure you've seen this Dalia, is that there's the excuse or belief that oh, it's a fast paced environment and everything changes and it's very difficult to kind of hook onto something. But when you don't have that, people start to create their own direction.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's why you get misalignment or you get uh, opinions that there's nothing wrong with having kind of conflict in a team as long as it's a safe and a bit of commerce environment to be able to and m a trusting environment I think to kind of stress test things and challenge one another which is part of kind of healthy team M dynamics I would say. But I think when you just get complete misalignment or even worse, you get a lack of communication in a team. That's when these things start to become really problematic because you're driving in different directions, you're defining different things to success. So you're not operating as a team. You may be called a team, you may have similar roles or the same manager, but actually are you operating in the same, in the same way or towards the same goal? Probably not. One of the best ways I heard someone describe it is actually if you think about and I'm not massively into football, though I do know more about it than my m son plays it. You know, you can't if you're all honest. A football pitch, not every single one of you needs to score, be the scorer or the striker for the team to win. And I think, you know, if you're on a football pitch and every single person is trying to hog the ball and strike, strike. That's the problem.

Speaker B: Mhm. Oh yeah, completely Agree. And I've heard, um, the same analogy as well. You're all on the pitch for a reason. You're all there to actually get the ball into the net. Doesn't mean that everybody gets to put the ball into the net. Right, so. So you mentioned that you might all have the same manager. Sometimes we might not have the same manager. You know, I've worked in a lot of teams and, and with a lot of teams that are cross functional. So you've all got different, different managers, sometimes micro cultures within those teams as well. Right. Or you might uh, be there's a few of you from different, completely different spaces, maybe sometimes from different companies and you're all working together that can be even more challenging. So how do you bring all of that together?

Speaker A: Well, I think that's a challenge in itself, isn't it? Because if you think those managers again might have very different personal motivations or very different corporate agendas that they want to go after and um, when there's a clash there, then that becomes really problematic in terms of the direction of trouble that they're driving their team in. And if they need to work at a, uh, lower level, cross functionally to be able to deliver something. But actually when managers giving them a, this looks like, this is what a good job looks like and the other one has a completely different view of it, then when those clashes of opinion happen, that's when it starts to get really, really difficult for the team. And I think that's where you start to see actually the breakdown between a top level kind of commercial strategy or organizational goal and then how it manifests in the different departments and personal motivations as well. You know, what will make me look good. And I think, you know, as humans we are kind of hardwired really to think first and foremost, well, what does it mean for me with anything that happens in the world and therefore that often plays out in a work setting and drives the wrong decisions or challenges the way that things are done. And I think there's a huge bit around understanding the environment that you're operating in before you think about how teams can work better together. You can't just throw a team together and say, actually you're not talking to each other. Engage and the outcome will come. Actually it's understanding the environment and the context first and together trying to shift that mindset.

Speaker B: Yeah, so true. It is about doing the groundwork beforehand, isn't it? And, and it's, I've thought of so many different examples where we, there's a, something happening at work there might be a new project and everybody just gets invited to the room.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then you kick off in the hope that we're all in the same direction, we're all completely aligned. But there's an actual, there's a, a big uh, something that needs to happen before that doesn't. There's some, some pre work. Yeah. Some positioning. So what do you reckon that positioning should look like and why do we miss it?

Speaker A: Uh, I think we, we miss it because we, we sometimes think, well first of all it's too much like hard workers and they're going and doing all that pre work. People don't have time to do it. They're like let's just get everyone in a room and deal a message together. And I think sometimes people think actually we need to have transparency and we can't have these individual conversations first. But I think for me, uh, projects I've worked on that have required um, a yes, no from abroad sometimes need a huge amount of, I'm going to call it socializing for want of a better with the key stakeholders first. So going and explaining the project to them on a one to one in a way that works for them but also giving them time to kind of understand it, reflect and share their opinion before they're put in that room and being told to do something, it can be really valuable. First of all that gives you a perspective of something that you might not have thought of before. But it also helps you understand if you're trying to deliver something that requires cross functional involvement. Actually what are the motivations of those different teams and what are the concerns that you're not aware of as well and what will it mean for them not just to agree it, but to implement it too. And all of those things can really help you understand. Actually these are the different perspectives that I'm going to have in the room when I share the message. And if some of those people, if you get the leader of each of those teams feeling informed and engaged beforehand actually in the room, they can become sponsors, they can become champions of that for their team and they can say well this is why we're doing it. Rather than it becomes a JFDI that the team are just told to do or, or information shared at one time. And I think we don't often invest that upfront time into positioning, socializing but also listening to different opinions and why something might influence or impact different teams or different functions in different ways and understanding some of the parts before we share it with everyone.

Speaker B: I just want to Take a super quick break from this amazing conversation to remind you that the doors for Elevate are now open. It's happening on the 15th of September at, uh, the beautiful Swinton Park Hotel in North Yorkshire. And this is for you. If you are a founder and senior leader and to the outside world you're a high performing leader, but on the inside you might be second guessing yourself. Even though you used to feel really confident, you might also be feeling a bit out of your depth. Even though deep down inside you know that you're more than capable. And you might be also feeling comfortable, completely stuck in the weeds, like you're spinning your wheels with no time or headspace to think properly. And everybody in the business seems to want your attention. If you can relate to any of that, you are in the right place because this is exactly what Elevate is all about. All you need to do to get more information is visit barbaranixon.co.uk work with Barbara, Elevate. The link that you need is in the show notes. All the information that you want is right, right there. Okay, let's dive back in. Something that you just said was actually really interesting and it struck a chord with me about the why and that, uh, again often gets missed. This is why we're doing it and we dive into the what. This is what we're doing. This is when we're gonna do it. This is, you know, how potentially we're going to do it. But not, we don't often think about the why. And I did this piece of work with a group of leaders not long ago actually in a, uh, in a workshop where we really looked at the why and dissected that. And it was such a difficult thing for people to get their heads around because we don't naturally think in that way and because we're not taught to think in that way. But, but knowing the why, that's the motivation, that's the reason for us actually being there in the first place.

Speaker A: Oh, 100%. And you know what, I've done quite a few talks on this and m, I do it with university students. And the way that I explain it is an image of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. So you're on one side of the bay and you want to get to the other. And um, the bridge might be how you are going to get there. And it might be obvious, you know, I'm on this side of the bay, I need to get to the other. There's a bridge, I'll cross it. That's my how because I need to get to the other side. But then when you start to think about well why do I need to get to the other side, what's on the other side, what will feel different being on this side you start to say actually how I'm going to get there could be very different. So if why I need to get to the other side is because there's an emergency on the other side that I need to be a part of and uh, many is no object and there's a helicopter waiting for me actually my how I'm going to get there is I'm going to jump in that helicopter which is very quick compared to the bridge. So I'm compared to crossing the bridge. If my why I want to get to the other side is because actually my lifetime goal was to swim across the bay under the Golden Gate Bridge, then actually that that's the route I'm going to take. And until we know why, uh, and really kind of digging into that, the purpose behind it, we can't kind of define our how or what we need to do. And so I always use that example and take it back to the you ah, know, why do I want to cross it and what, what is important to me during that crossing because that's

Speaker B: going to shape my how 100 true. And I always think back to the why is the reason for me actually doing the work in the first place. So when you're in and we've both come from really fast paced businesses and I love working with businesses like that where no two days the same, it's great. You can be agile, you can be, you know, it's, it's, you have to think on your feet. But when you, when you've got, when you're in that situation you've got an awful lot of priorities. That's probably not the only project that you're involved in. You know, you've got a lot going on and you might have back to back meetings and for me to prioritize the work that I'm doing it for this particular project and with this particular team when the why really lands and hits home and I understand the end result for doing it, all of a sudden now it's going to uh, shuffle to the top of my, my to do list because we're only human, right? You're talking to people ultimately and we might have stuff to do but if you can motivate somebody as in this is why we're doing it, this is going to be the end result and we all want to know the value of our work.

Speaker A: I think there's that from a motivation perspective, definitely why we're doing it. But I think the bit that we often forget is what is the cost of not doing things as well? Um, and that helps from a prioritisation perspective in terms of what are the strategic choices we're going to make, which ones do we need to do now? What's the cost of not doing them? And can we afford that cost or can we afford to risk missing out on that opportunity or putting some pause or what will be the different parts that will happen? Mhm. If we don't act on this right now?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So there's so many things that we actually have to consider when we're working in a team, when we're communicating, how do we actually get it right? Let's look at some practical tips that we can do. If, especially if you're listening to this and you've got a team and you think, oh, I could do with really sort of just improving it in some way or you know that you've got a big project coming up, what can we do to make that land properly?

Speaker A: So uh, for me it's very much about first of all being really honest about where you are as a team. And I think teams don't, uh, managers aren't often enough honest about who they've got in their team, uh, understand the different skill set they've got and be really honest about where we are right now, kind of understanding, I always say, like decode where we are, what is going on, what's under the surface, um, and then there's almost like a discovery part. So actually what do we know, but what do we need to know as well. So I think just as much as thinking about what do we know, what are all the things we could write on paper right now, we also need to know where our gaps are too. So it might be a capability gap, it might be a knowledge gap, it might be an external resource gap, but being really clear on that, um, and then thinking about through all those things, starting to prioritize, well, what's going to be important to us right now. So how do we decide what it is that we need to do? And what we need to do might be more discovery, it might be going and seeking out more information, or it might be starting to act and actually through that, how can we then start to deliver what we need to do? And for me that's a continuous circle. So understanding where we are, thinking about what we know, thinking about where our gaps are what we still need to know. Thinking about uh, our priorities, deciding what we want to do and then thinking about that plan for delivery. And you know that that is quite process driven. But within that, for a manager, it's about understanding the, the individual motivations of those people in, in your team, how they respond to different challenges, um, how they work together and, but also how you bring the best out of them as individuals as well. And I think that there is an inclusion element there in terms of making sure that for every person in a team they feel that they both belong, that they, that they can be themselves as well within that belonging. So they're not having to conform and I guess trade off at all of who they are to. And that is a big tightrope to walk. But taking the time to understand each of the individuals and their team, their why, their motivations for coming every day really help to build that. And I think that process but with an understanding of the individuals and the team can work really well in terms of helping them say, actually this is where we are right now. This is why, this is where we want to get to, this is why. And um, this is the very clear process that we're going to follow.

Speaker B: Yeah, but you taking the time to just get to know people, that's uh, invaluable, isn't it? Just spending some time. And it's not something that we really would do often enough because we believe that we don't have enough time to do that. And it's just sent me straight back to meetings that I've been in where everybody's been from different functions or different departments. And even though we're there to represent our department, we're actually coming with different strengths as well. And where I've seen this work brilliantly is where the project manager or the, the manager of, you know, the team, um, actually takes time to decide what the strengths are within the room. So you might, you might come with from that as um, uh, a uh, representative of your department, which is great, but you've also got individual strengths. So you might be really good at asking questions. You might be really good at spotting the risks, you might be really good at um, seeing where the positives are or looking from the customer perspective. So we all come with certain different dynamics and certain, you know, strengths. And so how can we actually use that without ego getting involved as well?

Speaker A: So I don't think, I actually think we shy away from talking about the things that we're good at more often than not. M and actually I think we Put so much focus on development areas. Any conversation with the line management cleaner, tell me what you're developing on. But we should actually make our strength stronger, but also work on our development areas so we can. And a manager or a line manager or leader, whoever it is, should be encouraging individuals in a room to really say actually, well, this is where I'm good at. But not just this is where I'm good at. We're a team. So this is where I can help other people because of that, um, and almost not just coming forwards with this is what I bring to the table, but this is where I can start to add value to the team as well. And I don't think that's just about like strength, you know, like I'm really in some customer. I think it's also about the experience that we've got in the room. You know, people are so fluid in their careers now, so people might have experience from two or three different industries in that room, let alone two different, two or three different organizations. And how you can bring that experience around the table and celebrate that that is, is really, really important. And almost compare and contrast. If you've got someone who's got a real intelligence in one organization, someone might have been there 20 years, but someone might have, I don't know, uh, five sets of four years experience elsewhere. So how can you combine all of that to be able to, to I guess give the team understanding of what they want to do? And I'd, I'd be really encouraging of people to share. Not just kind of this is what I'm good at, but these are the experiences that I've had and this is what I've learned from it too. And I think, you know, there is a strength in that vulnerability. And sometimes sharing an experience that's really honest actually creates that, that positive vulnerability and that trust that strengthens a team.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that completely because you're absolutely right. And I've seen this play out in real time and also I've seen it play out with myself. We might be in a role and we apply for that role because we've got the skills for that role, but we've got a whole host of other skills and strengths that are outside of that that we might not actually tap into. And where, um, a project leader takes the time to actually get to know the skills that somebody's got and the experiences and all of their history. And I know you might be listening, thinking, geez, I haven't got time for that. You know, I ain't got Time to be doing that. But it's just been relationship building, isn't it? It's just built back into your every day.

Speaker A: You can totally build it into every day. Like literally it takes, I don't know, eight minutes to go for a coffee with someone. But what you get when you take them off the task and just ask them a bit about them is so rich in terms of information or maybe what you. And the fact that you know they don't want to speak about those things also gives you an indication of who they are and what they're willing to talk about and what they're comfortable about. And I'm very conscious that not everyone needs to share their whole life story at work to be seen. I think that's really, really important as well. But just taking the time to have those kind of side of desk or non task related conversations with people is really, really important.

Speaker B: M Another thing that I see people getting frustrated with is you might have been in a business for quite a number of years and you might have been there, seen it, worn the T shirt, you know, and you've seen things play out and not land and you've seen things play out and land really, really well. But you've got that experience and no doubt you've got everything in your, your desk drawer somewhere. And then somebody newer comes in with ideas that you thought you might have actually thought of or, or delivered in the past. And there's. Then there becomes a conflict between people that have been for a while here for a while and people who've just started who've got some ideas and who get frustrated because their ideas just, just get poured water, cold water over them. So. And they're just not allowed to voice their opinions as easily. So what do you do to actually create the strength between the individuals in a team?

Speaker A: I think there's a real role of the leader of that team in that situation to be aware of the different personalities you've got and to be aware that you'll have. Um, you know, you bring new people into for the culture you want to create rather than for more of the same. So if you brought new people in, probably some of their remit is to challenge the status quo. Um, however, that's not to disrespect what's gone before or the work that's happened. And as a leader it's about creating that understanding. We hear what you're saying, that we've tried these things in the past, but actually if we look at where we are now, the context is different or the market is different or the customer is different. So actually, there's no harm in trying that again. We should absolutely understand the learnings of what happened last time. Let's not be naive and think this is going to be completely different this time. It may be, but let's go in understanding some of the data, but let's also look at what's going on or could be going on in the future as well. And I heard someone say something great. Uh, a week ago, we were in a conversation, and they said, what do we want the future history to be? And I thought, well, that's a great phrase. So, actually, if we jump to six months from now, what do we want the next six months to look like? And how do we build that? And just being really clear on how do we do that together, and how do we take the learnings from the history that we've got? But how do we also think about how we want the future history to be different? And actually, my show, I had two founders come on who were building, um, a beauty app together. And one of the things they said, and it really made me think about how you work in partnership with someone or how you work with someone who thinks differently to you. They said, if one of us thinks A and one of us thinks B, we'll stop and, um, we'll come up with C together. And I thought, well, that is such a great example of, you know, it doesn't have to be my way or your way. There will be elements of both that will be meaningful. But if we trust each other and if we have a little bit of transparency, and if we say, you know, well, it's not that I hate all of your Idea, I hate 90% of it, but that 10 is excellent, or whatever it is, actually. How can you build something new together, bringing together both the. The insight and the information you've got? And as we said right at the beginning, if we're all a demographic of one, well, how powerful is it to have those two different minds building something?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's coming from a place of positive intent, isn't it? So it's not about me, it's not about you. It's actually about what we can create together. I love that. Dar, how can people get hold of you?

Speaker A: Oh, good question. So LinkedIn. By acting on LinkedIn. They can find me on LinkedIn at Dahlia Stroud, if they're interested in my podcast, which I haven't talked about a lot on this, which is actually about clothes, confidence and mindset, they can find Stress but well Dressed podcast. And I am building the SPWD group, which, uh, has the Stress but well Dressed podcast in it. Um, but the other acronym, sbwd, is about strategic leadership. It's about being bold in what you do. It's about wisdom in a world that's data driven and really thinking about how you leverage that insight for action. And it's about differentiating. So how can you stand out in a crowded marketplace?

Speaker B: Amazing. Thank you so much for hanging out with us.

Speaker A: It was brilliant. Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Smash your own Ceiling podcast. If you're ready for more, go to barbaranixon.co.uk See you soon.