SALES with ASLAN · 2026-07-20 · 21 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
28 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
This episode dives into metamessage theory, the implicit meaning people extract from your communication beyond your literal words. Drawing on Dr. Albert Mehrabian's UCLA research, the hosts establish that 7% of communication comes from spoken words, 38% from tone of voice, and 55% from body language - meaning 93% of what people actually hear is non-verbal. The conversation centers on why this matters in sales: a customer's willingness to listen, engage, and reveal truth depends far more on the safety and care they feel than on the logical power of your pitch. The hosts share concrete examples, including how an accusatory questioning tone differs subtly from genuine curiosity, and how a sales rep's disinterest (communicated through facial expressions and energy) can sabotage a relationship regardless of product fit. Key practical strategies include preparing mentally for bad news before calls, focusing on what people hear rather than what you say, owning negative metamessages when they occur, and reviewing recordings of your own meetings to identify blind spots. The episode emphasizes that metamessage is especially critical at home with family, where we relax our professional masks and can inadvertently shame children or damage relationships through implicit messaging.
Metamessage is what people actually hear beyond your words - your tone, body language, and facial expressions. Research by Dr. Albert Mehrabian shows 93% of communication is non-verbal (7% words, 38% tone, 55% body language), making metamessage far more influential than your message in determining whether someone trusts you and opens up about their real needs.
Watch for consistent negative reactions from customers or colleagues that you don't understand, ask trusted people for feedback on how you come across, or record yourself in meetings and review the footage. You can also ask directly - people usually already sense the negative message, so naming it doesn't reveal anything new.
A curious question uses an open, exploratory tone ('What do you mean by that?') while an accusatory tone sounds like you're cornering someone ('What do you mean by that?'). The words are identical, but the tone and facial intensity communicate either genuine interest or suspicion, which changes how the listener feels and responds.
Prepare yourself for the possibility that something might go wrong - the deal might be delayed, the contact might be moved to a new role, or something personal might be affecting them. This mental preparation lets you respond with empathy ('Are you okay? How can I help?') rather than self-focused panic about your deal.
Own it immediately and honestly: 'I know I tuned out just then, I apologize' or 'I'm really disappointed about this delay, but I care about you - what's going on?' People give grace when you acknowledge the negative message; trying to fake it or ignore it only makes it worse.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode covers one real concept - metamessage/non-verbal communication - but most of the runtime is casual banter, personal anecdotes, and mutual affirmation rather than packed ideas. The few actionable tips (prepare for bad news, own tuning out, watch recordings) are sensible but sparse and surface-level for a 21-minute episode.
don't focus on what you say, focus on what people hear
I try to prepare for bad news... if I'm not prepared for that, I'd be like, oh, I'm sorry, what, what, what should we do? Like, I'm worried about me versus oh, wow, are you okay?
The core framework is Mehrabian's 40-year-old 7-38-55 rule, one of the most recycled statistics in sales training. The application to sales conversations adds marginal novelty but the episode introduces no contrarian or first-principles thinking - it restates well-worn communication coaching advice.
there was a study done by uh, in UC at UCLA and Dr. Albert Meherobian... 7% of what you of is the spoken word, 38% is the tone and 55% is the body language
we always focus on what do we say and what do we do... frameworks, playbooks, process, messaging value, prop
There is no external guest - just two co-hosts who appear to be principals at a sales training firm (ASLAN). They reference writing a book and running programs, placing them firmly in the consultant/trainer category rather than operators who have scaled a revenue function, which limits the practitioner credibility on display.
we're going to talk about something that I don't think I've ever heard anybody train about or talk about in Sales
I've learned a lot from my wife, I've learned from you. Um, I've learned from Mark
The episode relies almost entirely on vague personal anecdotes (a service rep who didn't ask about a trip, a call that went sideways) with no named companies, no metrics, no deal sizes, and no concrete timelines. The Mehrabian citation is the only data point and it is misattributed and frequently misapplied even in academic contexts.
they asked me about, well, we get anything going on. Exciting. I'm like, yeah, well I'm going on an anniversary trip... the next time I saw her... Nothing
I did. Where I should have been prepared because I had to catch myself because it was a push situation
Speaker B largely acts as a validator, offering 'Yeah,' 'That's good,' and 'God, this is so good' throughout. Questions are generic prompts ('any tricks of the trade?', 'anything else?') rather than sharp follow-ups. There is no pushback, no challenged assumption, and the conversation regularly drifts into personal tangents about marriages and children rather than drilling into sales-specific substance.
So do you think that it's, you know, because I'm, my brain goes to. How can we, you know, do. Is there um, any tricks of the trade on awareness
God, this is so good. I need to hear this. Well, sadly, uh, this is. I need to work on this in my marriage
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Your words are only part of what people hear. In Truth #11 of ASLAN’s 30 Truths for 30 Years series, Tom Stanfill and Tab Norris explore the power of the metamessage, the meaning communicated through your tone, expression, attention, body language, and motive. They discuss how a technically correct question can still sound accusatory, why customers can sense when a seller is focused on the deal instead of the person, and how preparing for bad news can help you respond with genuine concern rather than self-interest. You will also learn how to recognize when your metamessage is creating resistance, use feedback and call reviews to identify patterns, and repair the conversation when you communicate something you did not intend. Because in sales and leadership, people do not only respond to what you say. They respond to what they hear. Learn more about ASLAN:
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Foreign. We're back in the studio for another episode of Sales with Aslan. I hope you've been well. I hope our audience, audience have been well. I hope everybody's having a great summer.
Speaker B: Yep.
Speaker A: Yeah, kind of slowed down a little bit. We sound slow down because of the summer break. But, uh, we're gonna pick things back up. So, um, thanks for everybody hanging out, hanging with us. Uh, we're on our 30 truce to celebrate our 30th anniversary. And we're on truth number 10 for those.
Speaker B: I love it. Third of the way. Third of the way.
Speaker A: I know we're, we're going to start cranking them out again, but the truth number 10 now we're today tab. As you know, we're going to talk about something that I don't think I've ever heard anybody train about or talk about in Sales because in sales and in leadership we always focus on what do we say and what do we do? Mhm. You know, frameworks, playbooks, process, messaging value, prop. A lot about what we need to say and those are all good things. But today we're going to talk about not what you say, but what do people actually hear. We're going to talk about the meta message, which is more than a, uh, message. I don't know if anybody's familiar with that term, but.
Speaker B: Yeah, define it for it. Like define us. Define it.
Speaker A: Well, meta means more than. Okay. Okay. So meta message means more than the message. So. And I think of it as the meta message is the heart, meaning it's like what people really hear. Whereas message is just the word meaning, like if someone says, how you doing? Fine. Right, right. Well, uh, it sounds like I'm angry. Yeah, the message is he's doing fine. And for literal people that would, that would. But the message is he's angry. So it's like it's what's implied. So that's Latin.
Speaker B: I'm assuming it's Latin.
Speaker A: Meta is Latin, Latin or Spanish, I'm not sure which is German. Yeah, I think it is Latin.
Speaker B: It's Latin for is the heart meaning.
Speaker A: No, it's meta means more than more than. Okay, more than more than. So it's more than the message. It's like more than the words you're saying. It's what's actually really being communicated. And there was a study, um, done by uh, in UC at UCLA and Dr. Albert Meherobian. M. I can't say his last name. My herbian. Yeah, I don't know how to say his last name. I. I Didn't want to try to figure that out. But uh, and he, he's come up with this, this basically saying 93% of communication is non verbal. So there's the 7,3855 rule is what he came up with based on a study that he did on university students. 7% of what you of is the spoken word, 38% is the tone and 55% is the body language. Right. So, so basically 93% is the meta message.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: And like what I, uh, what I learned, like writing the book, when we were talking about motive is transparent or 60 something muscles in your face like
Speaker B: oh, I love that in the book. Yeah.
Speaker A: And when you're talking about something, you can tell when people are tuned out, you can tell when they're super interested, you can tell when they're really curious, you can tell when they're there. Even though the words can be the same. Like one of the things that I'm, I've been accused of, and rightly so, is sometimes I'll turn to have accusatory, accusatory tone when I'm asking questions like I'm an attorney. Yeah, you into a corner. And there's a very subtle difference between a curious question. Oh, what do you mean by that? Versus what do you mean by that? Right.
Speaker B: And you're changed by the way.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Just thought, yeah.
Speaker A: Why did you do that? Why'd you do that? I mean it's. I can, I can. And then we don't as we don't necessarily know what meta message we're sending. We're focused on, we're just asking the question. And you can get in a fight with somebody and not even know like how do we get here especially, um.
Speaker B: Well, you know what's funny? Um, uh, just about you. I think this is interesting because you, you I've never seen you always have such a very positive meta message. I mean I just feel like that's a strength of yours. But you're right. The only time I ever see it is when you are in this investigative mode. Like you, it's like something switches and I'm almost like so. And I, by the way, I think that's a good takeaway for all of us in sales because I think that can happen. You get to this mode of either you're pitching or you're discovering or whatever and it's easy. You have to be careful that we don't kind of slide into this.
Speaker A: And it doesn't always mean that our meta message is negative. It could be something internal Happening like, like I know when I'm. A lot of times when I'm asking questions, I'm trying to filter through a lot of information and try. And so there's like a focused intensity around. I'm trying to narrow in because I'm trying to get the information I need. I'm not upset with the person.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Or I'm not even. And I'm okay with whatever the outcome is. But I know my wife, for example, can not. Like she can feel like she's being attacked.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And we're going to talk later. We're going to talk in another podcast about, uh, about that, but about kind of knowing how people learning from how people perceive you and that type of thing. But, but it's good for us to know these things because it's more important than what we said.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Like I remember one time I was uh, working with somebody and I was the client and they were, they, you know, they asked me about, well, we get anything going on. Exciting. I'm like, yeah, well I'm going on an anniversary trip. And they, you know. And you could tell, I could tell. Meta message. They weren't really interested in what I was saying. And a lot of times I'll just quit talking because I can tell people don't care. But then she kind of was uh, seemingly interested and so I told her what I was doing and she could tell her eyes were kind of glazed over. Well, the next time I saw her, which was right after the trip. Nothing.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Not how was the trip then I even, I even kind of brought it up a little bit like, well, I just got back from a trip. It's like whatever, you know, and the meta message, which I don't care about you, all I care about is your money. Mhm. And so that may not be. She could be distracted. She could have been going through something personal. That doesn't. But, but the customer, there is always a meta message and we need to figure that out. Yeah.
Speaker B: And so she was communicating that um, whether or not she meant to or not, it did not matter because that is what you felt as the customer.
Speaker A: You, you.
Speaker B: That was so which kind of leads to. And I think that's where you're going with this is kind of unpacking kind of the why this is so critical. Like the uh, you know, you know why this matters. Because you just said one thing. It can hurt the relationship.
Speaker A: Uh, yeah. So I think we just have to always monitor both our metamessage and the message. There's what I'm going to say and then there's how I'm going to say it. And the impact is most of it's usually it's either going to be a self centered thing, it's going to communicate that you're being self centered. I need, hey, who's else is involved in this process? Right, right. That sounds self centered. It sounds like, oh, you don't think I'm the decision maker so you're going to waste time talking to me and you want to get to the right person. That's what I'm hearing. And you're like no, I was just trying to figure out who else might I need to send this information to. So we've got to constantly monitor so that can. It can indicate to the listener that you're being self centered or it can be indicated to the listener that you don't care. Yeah, not good things.
Speaker B: So do you think that it's, you know, because I'm, my brain goes to. How can we, you know, do. Is there um, any tricks of the trade on awareness, you know, just to be, to be aware of uh, of, of your meta message that you've kind of found helpful?
Speaker A: Uh, well the one thing that I have found and I forgot where I, I heard this but it was not original with me. But I heard somebody say this one time is don't focus on what you say, focus on what people hear here. Yeah, I like that. And like you think about writing an email and you start thinking about how could they have interpreted that? What's the other. I know what I'm trying to say. That's what we default to. How could they interpret that? Could they interpret that as they're incompetent? Could they interpret that as you don't care. Did they interpret that? Or even for clarity purposes. Um, that's a good way of thinking about how would they, you know, how would they um, you know, how would they interpret that? I think that's one of the things. I mean, do you think about that?
Speaker B: I know, not very much. I mean I don't know that that's high on my radar. I, I don't. Which is. Yeah, I need it to be. Yeah, this is good. I, I don't really think about it. I, I think I'm, I'm um, I think um, I'm. And I think people are wired in different ways. I think I'm more naturally have a pos.
Speaker A: I mean I think you do have a very positive.
Speaker B: I kind of have a natural positive meta message. But the problem with that is because I naturally do. If I don't, it's real obvious. Like I. And like I, uh.
Speaker A: You talked about someone like you probably only would be tuned out.
Speaker B: It's usually tuned out.
Speaker A: You're not the kind of person that's ever gonna say anything root. Ever. I've never seen.
Speaker B: I don't want us.
Speaker A: I don't really get mad, but that was not a meta message. That was the message.
Speaker B: Yeah, that was.
Speaker A: I'm mad.
Speaker B: I'm really mad now. There's nothing to interpret here, but you're right. But for. Because I think this is good because we're different. Everybody's different. That's kind of. I was bringing it up because.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Uh, for me and for people out there that have my kind of personality is that's where it'll happen. Like, I'm not interested. And if I'm interested, I'll have good positive meta message. That's just kind of the way I'm wired. But, man, you're right. If I'm not interested and sometimes I need to be. I need to be interested and I'm not interested and I have. And if I don't ensure that I have that right positive method, it's hard to fake. I mean, I think that's what you're saying. My face gives you away.
Speaker A: Fake it can't. You are sending a message you can't fake. Like not responding is a meta message.
Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. God, this is so good. I need to hear this. Well, sadly, uh, this is. I need to work on this in my marriage. Probably more than work.
Speaker A: I don't know.
Speaker B: Just like everything.
Speaker A: Yeah, I think we all need. I mean, by the way, if you can master this at home, you can master this anywhere. Because. Yeah, because we relax. Um, and I think that that's another tip that I would share that I've learned. Um, and you've seen me do this is own it. When you. When you've sent a negative meta message, own it. Like, it's okay if you tune out. Everybody gives you grace. Like, hey, listen, I just tuned out. I was.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I could either fake it right now and try to. Try to not ask a question that I'm thinking about because it potentially could already have been answered. That's the situation I'm in a lot. I go, I go ask a question and then I go, we just, we just talked about that, you know.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: To my son the other day, I'm like, did I just. Did you just tell me this? Because I just tuned out and I'm sorry. All of a sudden I was thinking about something that's happening and I apologize. And people will give you grace.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: If you tune out, it's like I'm distracted because of this thing's going on and I apologize. And by the way, it's easy to own it because they already know.
Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You're not telling anything they don't already know.
Speaker A: Yeah. But you save, you've saved it. Um, one of the things also I think that helps me, or at least I, I've noticed it's. I guess another thing that I've worked on is I try to prepare for bad news.
Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah.
Speaker A: Unpack that. Well, if I'm in it with a customer, let's say I'm with a customer. Okay. And they say, hey, listen, the project's been delayed. I've, I've got another responsibility. Or I'm being moved out of this role and you could tell kind of their, their negative. Like, like all this project that I'm excited about. Yeah. Hijacked by something and it could be something that's negative that's going on with the person, person that I'm talking to. Yeah. Like that's the worst thing that could be. The worst thing that I could think happened in that situation. Because if I'm not prepared for that, I'd be like, oh, I'm sorry, what, what, what should we do? Like, I'm worried about me versus oh, wow, are you okay? Is everything okay? Like, let's talk about you. If I'm, if I'm surprised by that, I might not be prepared. Like, hey, my job is to serve them. How can I help them? People are more important than this. You know, just all the things that I have to tell myself because I'm going to default to self.
Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I just had this happen.
Speaker A: Oh really?
Speaker B: I did. Where I should have been prepared because I had to catch myself because it was a push situation. Uh, I should have come into the call. That's a great tip. But I didn't come into the call. I'm all enthusiastic, excited about the next steps in order to get this done. So I can go ahead and put it down and close it and count it in my revenue number for this year. And, and all of a sudden a couple of things were stated and I, I don't, I'm glad I don't have video footage of my face because I don't know that would have had the right meta message.
Speaker A: But you're okay to say, let's say, hey, I'm really honestly I'm really disappointed. But how are you doing?
Speaker B: Yeah, but I didn't do that. Yeah. Yeah, but I should have. Yeah, it's okay. I should have. And I tried to recover. Maybe I did. But no, but I really, that's a great tip is because we've all been there. I mean, be prepared and it's good for discovery call. I mean like, you think about discovery if you're really enthusiastic, excited about an opportunity and go in there, hey, you don't know how this thing's going to go me, you. I don't know. I mean, it's going to be easy. It's going to be hard. But come in knowing that that could happen.
Speaker A: Yeah, like, well, I think that's another, another sparks, another idea of like just, uh, now that we can pretty much watch ourselves.
Speaker B: Well, that's true.
Speaker A: We can either ask somebody, I mean, basically get feedback. Either ask somebody or watch your game films.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Watch your, watch your meetings.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And that's where I've learned a lot. I mean, I've learned a lot from my wife, I've learned from you. Um, I've learned from Mark. You know, know, people will tell me, I feel like I'm being whatever and, or like you'll tell me or Mark will tell me and then I'll ask my wife and she's like, oh, definitely. I'm like, okay. I'm like, oh, oh.
Speaker B: So this has been validated three times now. Dang.
Speaker A: Well, another way to, another way to think about it. If you're getting a negative response, don't blame them, blame you.
Speaker B: Yeah, I know.
Speaker A: If somebody's not responding well. Mhm. You know, they're getting typically if somebody gets upset or that you can tell that this isn't going well, we think, well, what's wrong with them? Mhm. And if I can think is what am I communicating? Is there a meta message that's difficult. Um, and I want to go back to why this matters. I just want to kind of pop up and say because, yeah, you know, a lot of things we talk about here, but, you know, the person's willingness to listen to you, the willingness to engage, willingness to reveal the truth is so much more important than the power of our message. And so a lot of these things make them feel safe, make them feel comfortable. They'll tell you things they feel cared for. And when they start to reveal things to you and open up, you understand what's really important. They'll give you more grace. You're building value. Yeah. It's not just a Logical thing, right?
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: You need something, I have it. I'll prove it to you. We're done. People are emotional and so, and, and they'll make a bad decision because of their emotions. They're like, even though you may have the best solution, like, I would rather die than work with you. Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. And I've had people like that. And there are people who, who don't have a bad motive at all. And they just, Their facial expression is not positive. They don't have the tab gift.
Speaker B: I don't know about that.
Speaker A: And so, you know, I've seen people try to fake it, but I think it comes from a genuine place.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Um, you know, and they can even say things like, hey, listen, I know I'm looking intense. I'm just thinking about what you said. But you know, they're just going to have to work on that.
Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Um, all right. Anything else you've learned about kind of creating this, these positive mathematics? I know you said prepare for bad news. I really like that. Focus, um, on what people hear, not what you say.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Uh, um, Anything else that, Yeah, I
Speaker A: would say just get feedback. And I would just say be honest. If you feel like you, you're. You've sent a negative message, just own it. Just, just.
Speaker B: So add. Just ask. So you're just saying, just ask the person, you know?
Speaker A: Well, just say, Just say. Look, I, I know I, I would just say I, uh. I'm sorry. I'm being selfish right now. I'm really upset that the project's being delayed, but I, I really do care about you. Okay, what's going on with you? Like, just be honest. Like, I'm sorry. I tuned out. I'm back. Forgive me. Like, just own it. Like, And I think those are, those are things to work on. But, you know, there's not. This isn't a heavy concept. The bottom line is we send the messages. We send is so much more than the message. That's just the fact.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And what, and not only, not, uh, always the message is, is, Is interpreted accurately. But we want to, we want to monitor not only what we're saying, but what people hear. So in every form of communication, whether we're, Whether you're like, even if you have, Even if you put an exclamation point on stuff, like you might put an exclamation point, the other person might go, this person's a little overly optimistic. And they're like, uh, oh, yeah.
Speaker B: And they might, It's Just an awareness. It's really awareness.
Speaker A: What are people hearing? What do they think?
Speaker B: Just.
Speaker A: Yeah. Keep it on your radar and then
Speaker B: just kind of look for opportunities that you can assess yourself on what people are hearing. Am I, am I getting some, something back that I need to be aware of? Uh, where I need to possibly work
Speaker A: on my meta message and just, uh, you know, be aware. If you are seeing people respond negatively to you, you don't understand why.
Speaker B: That's good right there. That is a great litmus test.
Speaker A: Why are they upset? Yeah. Why are they upset? Versus we could would just respond and go, you know, why, why, why, why is this escalating? Yeah. And, and so then that's a key to, to, to maybe there's mess. There's a meta message you're sending. Uh, and this is super important outside work. I mean, yes, it's important at work, but work has more of a, a logical, rational. You know, we kind of work within these boundaries.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: And we kind of know we're on our best behavior. We get at home. Yeah.
Speaker B: Ah, it gets all, all. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A: We relax.
Speaker B: It's raw and we're really relaxed.
Speaker A: You did what? Especially with children. Especially with children. Our meta message can often, often shame our children. There's something wrong with you. Why did you do that? Why did you do that? Meta message. You're a flawed human being. That shouldn't. Normal, uh, people don't do that. Why are you acting that way? Yeah, I mean there's a, there's we can definitely easily shame our children, meaning we communicate that something's wrong with them via a meta message.
Speaker B: That's good.
Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. All right, well, hope this is helpful. Hopefully. Another tip. Uh, another truth. One of our top truths or one of our top 30 truths. Haven't talked. I don't think we've ever talked about this on a podcast. I think we've talked about this a little bit in some of our programs.
Speaker B: But um, it just, it gets like a, a line or two. But you're right. Yeah. And it's so reminder life.
Speaker A: Well, hope this is helpful. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Sales with Asan. And uh, we'll see you out there. Mhm. It.
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