Rezolve CEO Sees Growing Competition Over Control of AI Shopping

1 00:00:06,320 - > 00:00:10,000 Narrator: This is Monday Conversation, a PYMNTS podcast. 2 00:00:10,000 - > 00:00:13,039 Karen Webster sits down with the visionaries behind the 3 00:00:13,039 - > 00:00:16,239 trends for the stories shaping what's next in payments and 4 00:00:16,239 - > 00:00:17,120 commerce. 5 00:00:17,120 - > 00:00:22,239 In this episode, Payments CEO Karen Webster sits down with 6 00:00:22,239 - > 00:00:27,760 Rezolve Ai Founder and CEO Dan Wagner to talk about how Agentic 7 00:00:27,760 - > 00:00:32,079 Commerce meets guardrails around inventory, identity, and 8 00:00:32,079 - > 00:00:32,960 payments. 9 00:00:38,079 - > 00:00:41,520 Karen Webster: Dan Wagner is the founder and CEO of Rezolve, a 10 00:00:41,520 - > 00:00:44,799 company focused on bringing AI-driven commerce directly into 11 00:00:44,799 - > 00:00:46,399 the consumer experience. 12 00:00:46,399 - > 00:00:50,560 Long known as a bold and sometimes controversial voice in 13 00:00:50,560 - > 00:00:54,000 technology, Dan has built a career at the intersection of 14 00:00:54,000 - > 00:00:57,920 data, digital transformation, and disruptive business models. 15 00:00:57,920 - > 00:01:02,240 From his early work in data analytics back in 1984 to his 16 00:01:02,240 - > 00:01:06,159 current focus on embedding AI into the fabric of commerce, 17 00:01:06,159 - > 00:01:09,599 he's consistently pushed the idea that technology shouldn't 18 00:01:09,599 - > 00:01:13,200 just inform decisions, it should also execute them. 19 00:01:13,200 - > 00:01:16,400 So today we're going to explore what that means in the age of 20 00:01:16,400 - > 00:01:17,680 agentic AI. 21 00:01:17,680 - > 00:01:22,000 If software can act, transact, and make decisions on behalf of 22 00:01:22,000 - > 00:01:25,760 consumers and businesses, how does that really reshape 23 00:01:25,760 - > 00:01:28,400 commerce, control, and trust? 24 00:01:28,400 - > 00:01:30,400 Hey Dan, it's great to see you. 25 00:01:30,400 - > 00:01:34,079 I'm looking forward to getting caught up on all the great 26 00:01:34,079 - > 00:01:37,920 things you're doing with the Resolve and in particular your 27 00:01:37,920 - > 00:01:42,799 points of view on the future of commerce when agents are at the 28 00:01:42,799 - > 00:01:43,280 controls. 29 00:01:43,280 - > 00:01:44,879 So thanks for taking the time. 30 00:01:45,359 - > 00:01:46,640 Dan Wagner: Thank you very much for having me. 31 00:01:46,640 - > 00:01:47,760 It's a pleasure. 32 00:01:48,400 - > 00:01:50,319 Karen Webster: So let's start with a little context. 33 00:01:50,319 - > 00:01:56,799 You've spent a long time really trying to reshape how people 34 00:01:56,799 - > 00:02:02,239 interact with commerce and data from your very, very early days 35 00:02:02,239 - > 00:02:03,680 in 1984. 36 00:02:03,680 - > 00:02:08,719 That was that was sort of groundbreaking with MAID MAID. 37 00:02:08,719 - > 00:02:16,879 I mean, to start us off, in your view, what's changed the 38 00:02:16,879 - > 00:02:18,719 most over that period of time? 39 00:02:18,719 - > 00:02:20,639 What keeps breaking? 40 00:02:20,639 - > 00:02:25,599 And now with Agentic, whether you think commerce and 41 00:02:25,599 - > 00:02:29,599 innovations related to commerce is really different. 42 00:02:31,680 - > 00:02:34,639 Dan Wagner: Well, so when I started, uh people didn't have 43 00:02:34,639 - > 00:02:35,280 computers. 44 00:02:35,280 - > 00:02:39,039 So the IBM PC was being introduced on the year that I 45 00:02:39,039 - > 00:02:42,159 started my first information business or my online business. 46 00:02:42,159 - > 00:02:45,199 And so what's happened in that period, you know, from the the 47 00:02:45,199 - > 00:02:49,919 the early days of technology making things easier, uh from 48 00:02:49,919 - > 00:02:54,000 you know, having in my case, having to go to a library. 49 00:02:54,000 - > 00:02:57,840 Uh and in 1984, I started digitizing newspapers so you 50 00:02:57,840 - > 00:03:01,120 could interrogate a newspaper and get an article instead of 51 00:03:01,120 - > 00:03:03,840 having to go to the library to get it physically. 52 00:03:03,840 - > 00:03:09,439 Um, that seems like an age ago, and it was, um, to then being 53 00:03:09,439 - > 00:03:14,400 able to search anything on the internet 10, 15 years later, and 54 00:03:14,400 - > 00:03:19,039 then being able to buy anything without leaving your home. 55 00:03:19,039 - > 00:03:25,280 Um, these generational changes in in the way in which we 56 00:03:25,280 - > 00:03:28,879 interact with the world around us uh has happened in a in a 57 00:03:28,879 - > 00:03:31,120 fairly contracted period of time. 58 00:03:31,120 - > 00:03:36,479 But what's happening now is in a whole new scale of 59 00:03:36,479 - > 00:03:39,120 extraordinary potential. 60 00:03:39,120 - > 00:03:45,199 I've never seen anything quite so exhilarating uh as what's 61 00:03:45,199 - > 00:03:47,439 happening with generative AI. 62 00:03:47,439 - > 00:03:51,520 And of course, people like me were very much involved in its 63 00:03:51,520 - > 00:03:55,840 nascent development, you know, from concept-based retrieval 64 00:03:55,840 - > 00:03:59,439 technologies in the 90s, uh, where, you know, to predictive 65 00:03:59,439 - > 00:03:59,919 typing. 66 00:03:59,919 - > 00:04:04,000 This is all part of the grounding of uh what's known as 67 00:04:04,000 - > 00:04:06,879 Gen AI, where the perception is you're having a conversation 68 00:04:06,879 - > 00:04:10,080 with a computer when what you're actually doing is talking to a 69 00:04:10,080 - > 00:04:13,759 probabilistic mathematical algorithm that is guessing the 70 00:04:13,759 - > 00:04:16,399 next word, the next word, the next word to make a sentence and 71 00:04:16,399 - > 00:04:20,319 the next sentence to create the impression of a conversation. 72 00:04:20,319 - > 00:04:23,279 But for all intents and purposes, it is a conversation 73 00:04:23,279 - > 00:04:25,120 because that's how we communicate. 74 00:04:25,120 - > 00:04:32,160 I think that the the implications of that are much 75 00:04:32,160 - > 00:04:35,920 greater than simply the convenience of conversing with 76 00:04:35,920 - > 00:04:39,279 computers in the way that we converse with human beings. 77 00:04:39,279 - > 00:04:46,319 Uh and I have a view around how this is going to affect our how 78 00:04:46,319 - > 00:04:54,800 this is going to uh uh uh expose itself to us in changing 79 00:04:54,800 - > 00:04:57,759 the way we interact with the internet as we know it or 80 00:04:57,759 - > 00:04:58,879 digital channels. 81 00:04:58,879 - > 00:05:02,560 Uh and I believe it's going to be all agentic, and it's gonna 82 00:05:02,560 - > 00:05:07,279 be agentic, and what I mean by that is a consumer to an agent 83 00:05:07,279 - > 00:05:09,360 or an agent to an agent. 84 00:05:09,360 - > 00:05:17,199 So to give you the example, I go www maces.com and I have a 85 00:05:17,199 - > 00:05:22,160 conversation with an agent, a technology, a piece of 86 00:05:22,160 - > 00:05:26,720 technology that represents Maces as the best salesperson for 87 00:05:26,720 - > 00:05:30,000 Macy's that you could possibly meet if you were to walk into 88 00:05:30,000 - > 00:05:31,279 Macy's tomorrow. 89 00:05:31,279 - > 00:05:34,240 And they would walk you around the store, get whatever you need 90 00:05:34,240 - > 00:05:36,639 because they know everything about every product. 91 00:05:36,639 - > 00:05:40,399 That's the kind of uh thing that we're delivering to 92 00:05:40,399 - > 00:05:41,199 customers. 93 00:05:41,759 - > 00:05:44,240 Karen Webster: But but but but but but but Dan, that assumes 94 00:05:44,240 - > 00:05:49,040 that you're going to www.maces.com, which a lot of 95 00:05:49,040 - > 00:05:52,959 people don't start their journey at the merchant, they start 96 00:05:52,959 - > 00:05:56,639 their journey at the prompt with one of the AI models, which is 97 00:05:56,639 - > 00:06:00,000 so that's the second, so that's the second uh that's the second 98 00:06:00,000 - > 00:06:02,079 one, Carol, which is agent to agent. 99 00:06:02,160 - > 00:06:04,560 Dan Wagner: So the second scenario is that Dan Wagner 100 00:06:04,560 - > 00:06:07,759 doesn't go to Macy's.com instead of going to Macy's and saying, 101 00:06:07,759 - > 00:06:10,480 hey, I'm looking to buy a gift for my wife, you know, I don't 102 00:06:10,480 - > 00:06:12,639 want to spend more than a couple hundred bucks and I don't know 103 00:06:12,639 - > 00:06:15,920 what to get, and being presented with lots of different products 104 00:06:15,920 - > 00:06:17,759 from different departments instead of me going department 105 00:06:17,759 - > 00:06:20,560 to department, the way we do it at the moment is not really the 106 00:06:20,560 - > 00:06:23,360 way you shop online, you know, the way you shop in physical 107 00:06:23,360 - > 00:06:24,319 stores is different. 108 00:06:24,319 - > 00:06:28,879 Uh, we're gonna replicate through generative AI, and we 109 00:06:28,879 - > 00:06:31,360 are doing that, a much richer experience. 110 00:06:31,360 - > 00:06:33,759 But in answer to your point, you're absolutely right. 111 00:06:33,759 - > 00:06:37,920 The other way is that I go to ChatGPT or I go to Gemini or I 112 00:06:37,920 - > 00:06:41,759 go to Siri or I go to Copilot or something, and I say, Hey, I'm 113 00:06:41,759 - > 00:06:42,800 looking for a gift for my wife. 114 00:06:42,800 - > 00:06:44,959 I don't want to spend more than 200 bucks, you know, I'm not 115 00:06:44,959 - > 00:06:45,680 quite sure what to get. 116 00:06:45,680 - > 00:06:46,800 What do you recommend? 117 00:06:46,800 - > 00:06:48,560 Now, what happens? 118 00:06:48,560 - > 00:06:53,360 It's not happening yet exactly, it's started starting down, but 119 00:06:53,360 - > 00:06:57,600 what will happen is OpenAI or one of these agents, one of 120 00:06:57,600 - > 00:07:02,720 these uh interfaces will fire off hundreds of agents to 121 00:07:02,720 - > 00:07:07,439 hundreds of retail stores in a blink of an eye and interrogate 122 00:07:07,439 - > 00:07:10,800 all of them and then assimilate all the results and then come to 123 00:07:10,800 - > 00:07:12,879 me and say, hey, there's lots of things that you can buy, your 124 00:07:12,879 - > 00:07:15,839 wife that is under 200 bucks, from these things to these 125 00:07:15,839 - > 00:07:16,000 things. 126 00:07:16,000 - > 00:07:18,399 Or how can I help you navigate that down? 127 00:07:18,399 - > 00:07:23,199 Uh uh and eventually I will end up buying something from a 128 00:07:23,199 - > 00:07:24,000 retailer. 129 00:07:24,000 - > 00:07:28,000 Okay, so there's two things that that that implication that 130 00:07:28,000 - > 00:07:28,800 implies. 131 00:07:28,800 - > 00:07:31,920 The first is that you and I, if I said I've got to go and buy a 132 00:07:31,920 - > 00:07:36,240 pair of trainers, I'd go WWFootLocker and WW Nike, I go 133 00:07:36,240 - > 00:07:40,639 to one or two stores, maybe via Google or whatever, and then I'd 134 00:07:40,639 - > 00:07:43,680 end up selecting a pair of shoes and buying them, right? 135 00:07:43,680 - > 00:07:46,879 But the future is gonna be that I'm gonna go to ChatGBT or 136 00:07:46,879 - > 00:07:50,639 Gemini and it's gonna interrogate 500 stores. 137 00:07:50,639 - > 00:07:54,160 Every time I ask for something, instead of it being two or 138 00:07:54,160 - > 00:07:57,199 three, it's gonna be 500 in real time. 139 00:07:57,199 - > 00:08:00,879 The implications of that are that every e-commerce platform 140 00:08:00,879 - > 00:08:04,560 on the planet needs to scale up to manage that load. 141 00:08:04,560 - > 00:08:08,240 That load and the internet itself needs to scale up to 142 00:08:08,240 - > 00:08:08,879 manage that load. 143 00:08:08,879 - > 00:08:09,920 Is the infrastructure there? 144 00:08:09,920 - > 00:08:10,879 I don't think so. 145 00:08:10,879 - > 00:08:12,959 So we're investing in an infrastructure in the 146 00:08:12,959 - > 00:08:13,680 blockchain. 147 00:08:13,680 - > 00:08:17,680 I I think that there is gonna be dramatic shifts here that a 148 00:08:17,680 - > 00:08:19,360 lot of people don't fully appreciate. 149 00:08:19,360 - > 00:08:23,040 Even people in my industry who are talking, talk, agentic, 150 00:08:23,040 - > 00:08:25,759 blah, blah, they don't even have a clue of what the implications 151 00:08:25,759 - > 00:08:26,800 of this will be. 152 00:08:27,279 - > 00:08:30,319 Karen Webster: So I agree that that is the future, and we've 153 00:08:30,319 - > 00:08:35,759 seen some of the early evidence that you know the version one 154 00:08:35,759 - > 00:08:39,519 pilots of of what you described, the true eugenic experience, 155 00:08:39,519 - > 00:08:43,679 haven't necessarily delivered the outcomes that everyone's 156 00:08:43,679 - > 00:08:46,240 hopes and expectations thought they would deliver. 157 00:08:46,240 - > 00:08:48,399 I wrote a piece on this a couple of weeks ago. 158 00:08:48,399 - > 00:08:52,080 I called it my toaster problem, where I did exactly what you 159 00:08:52,080 - > 00:08:55,759 what you suggested, but I I knew the toaster I wanted to buy, 160 00:08:55,759 - > 00:08:59,519 but I was sort of testing the models to see whether they would 161 00:08:59,519 - > 00:09:03,360 actually return the brand of toaster that I wanted. 162 00:09:03,360 - > 00:09:08,720 I wanted to see how extensive the agent search would get, and 163 00:09:08,720 - > 00:09:12,879 then what would happen once I was given a selection of things 164 00:09:12,879 - > 00:09:13,360 to buy. 165 00:09:13,360 - > 00:09:18,000 And the toaster problem, you know, failed on two, on two 166 00:09:18,000 - > 00:09:18,240 things. 167 00:09:18,240 - > 00:09:20,240 One, it didn't return the brand that I wanted to buy. 168 00:09:20,240 - > 00:09:21,360 And two, I couldn't buy it. 169 00:09:21,360 - > 00:09:25,200 I couldn't buy a toaster from the agent. 170 00:09:25,919 - > 00:09:26,159 Dan Wagner: Yeah. 171 00:09:26,480 - > 00:09:30,480 Karen Webster: And so now, you know, there's the number one 172 00:09:30,480 - > 00:09:32,639 thing that people are doing with these models is search and 173 00:09:32,639 - > 00:09:33,120 discovery. 174 00:09:33,120 - > 00:09:35,759 Like your example, I'm I need to buy a birthday present, an 175 00:09:35,759 - > 00:09:37,519 anniversary present, a baby present. 176 00:09:37,519 - > 00:09:40,720 Tell me what you know the hot items are. 177 00:09:40,720 - > 00:09:45,519 But it's a it's a smart search function today. 178 00:09:45,519 - > 00:09:50,639 It's not a commerce transaction because you can't complete it. 179 00:09:50,639 - > 00:09:56,720 So how far away are we from solving my toaster problem and 180 00:09:56,720 - > 00:10:01,840 your query to buy your wife's birthday present from actually 181 00:10:01,840 - > 00:10:05,120 happening in your view, based on what you know now, and based on 182 00:10:05,120 - > 00:10:08,480 where you think we are from an infrastructure protocol, 183 00:10:08,480 - > 00:10:10,799 merchant readiness, et cetera, perspective? 184 00:10:11,440 - > 00:10:13,840 Dan Wagner: I think we're not we're not particularly close. 185 00:10:13,840 - > 00:10:20,399 I think that there is a fundamental disconnect between 186 00:10:20,399 - > 00:10:27,519 the hallucinations that these models are inherently uh pushing 187 00:10:27,519 - > 00:10:35,360 out and the concern from retailers to open the doors to 188 00:10:35,360 - > 00:10:39,440 their warehouses to these agents to run amok and represent their 189 00:10:39,440 - > 00:10:42,720 products to their customers, to these end customers without any 190 00:10:42,720 - > 00:10:43,919 control or constraint. 191 00:10:43,919 - > 00:10:46,960 What we're doing, and I think we're the only ones, I honestly 192 00:10:46,960 - > 00:10:49,279 think we're the only ones in the market doing this, right? 193 00:10:49,279 - > 00:10:52,799 Is that we are we have built agent infrastructure for the 194 00:10:52,799 - > 00:10:57,600 merchant to talk to agents, to control the narrative with the 195 00:10:57,600 - > 00:10:59,759 agents that are coming into their site. 196 00:10:59,759 - > 00:11:03,600 Uh, so that when the agent comes in, instead of the agent 197 00:11:03,600 - > 00:11:08,240 coming in from Chat GPT, taking everything off the shelves and 198 00:11:08,240 - > 00:11:12,799 misrepresenting it to me, the customer, the agent comes into 199 00:11:12,799 - > 00:11:15,919 the retail site and says, I'm looking for a pair of trainers 200 00:11:15,919 - > 00:11:17,360 size 10 in white. 201 00:11:17,360 - > 00:11:21,279 And we and the and the agent on our side says, Whoa, whoa, who 202 00:11:21,279 - > 00:11:22,159 are you talking to? 203 00:11:22,159 - > 00:11:25,279 Why do you want the what trainer do you want? 204 00:11:25,279 - > 00:11:28,399 What's the what is the query that was asked of you to come to 205 00:11:28,399 - > 00:11:31,759 the conclusion that it's a trainer size 10? 206 00:11:31,759 - > 00:11:38,159 You know, because the problem is that these other engines make 207 00:11:38,159 - > 00:11:39,600 mistakes, terrible mistakes. 208 00:11:39,600 - > 00:11:42,399 We've seen it recently with Walmart kicking out OpenAI and 209 00:11:42,399 - > 00:11:43,919 many, many other examples you would all know. 210 00:11:43,919 - > 00:11:46,639 And the reason for that is that the old the architecture of 211 00:11:46,639 - > 00:11:49,360 these technologies are not fit for purpose for this particular 212 00:11:49,360 - > 00:11:49,759 role. 213 00:11:49,759 - > 00:11:52,559 And we spent 10 years perfecting it so that it is. 214 00:11:52,559 - > 00:11:54,559 And so we want to be the gatekeeper. 215 00:11:54,559 - > 00:11:58,240 The best person to sell trainers to a consumer is the 216 00:11:58,240 - > 00:12:01,200 brand owner, Nike, or Footlocker, who've got great 217 00:12:01,200 - > 00:12:04,480 knowledge about the products, but not ChatGPT, who's a 218 00:12:04,480 - > 00:12:05,279 generalist. 219 00:12:05,279 - > 00:12:09,200 And especially when you've got this fundamental problem with 220 00:12:09,200 - > 00:12:11,679 the technology making mistakes, hallucinating. 221 00:12:13,039 - > 00:12:14,320 Karen Webster: I I agree with that. 222 00:12:14,320 - > 00:12:18,960 And and you know, we we've seen somewhat of this movie in real 223 00:12:18,960 - > 00:12:20,879 life today with Google Shopping, right? 224 00:12:20,879 - > 00:12:24,320 So you go into a search bar, you do you know, Google, I want 225 00:12:24,320 - > 00:12:30,720 to buy you know, pair of black kitten heel suede, size 35, give 226 00:12:30,720 - > 00:12:35,120 me the selection, and then you click through to a site, and you 227 00:12:35,120 - > 00:12:37,840 know, if you're lucky, you actually see that there's 228 00:12:37,840 - > 00:12:39,679 inventory in your size. 229 00:12:39,679 - > 00:12:43,200 Often you don't, because it's not real-time inventory 230 00:12:43,200 - > 00:12:43,679 management. 231 00:12:43,679 - > 00:12:46,559 You just go to the product page and then you go from there. 232 00:12:46,559 - > 00:12:54,639 But but what does the agentic future, in your view, as you see 233 00:12:54,639 - > 00:12:59,120 it and as you're solving for it, do that creates the brand 234 00:12:59,120 - > 00:13:03,840 affinity, sort of the merchant, you know, the merchant um 235 00:13:03,840 - > 00:13:07,200 relationship with the consumer, but also gives the consumer the 236 00:13:07,200 - > 00:13:09,440 optionality that they obviously want when they're sitting down 237 00:13:09,440 - > 00:13:10,399 at the prompt. 238 00:13:11,039 - > 00:13:13,279 Dan Wagner: So that's a very good question. 239 00:13:13,279 - > 00:13:18,080 Right now, Perplexity, OpenAI, Gemini, and others are pushing 240 00:13:18,080 - > 00:13:22,399 their standards to retail and say, open your doors and accept 241 00:13:22,399 - > 00:13:26,559 this uh uh standard so that we can come in and really, yeah, we 242 00:13:26,559 - > 00:13:29,440 can pull all your products off the shelves with live inventory 243 00:13:29,440 - > 00:13:30,240 data and everything else. 244 00:13:30,240 - > 00:13:34,639 And a lot of readers are going, no, not doing that, because you 245 00:13:34,639 - > 00:13:36,480 don't know my products, and you're I don't you're not gonna 246 00:13:36,480 - > 00:13:37,919 disaggregate me from my customers. 247 00:13:37,919 - > 00:13:39,679 But that's actually the wrong answer. 248 00:13:39,679 - > 00:13:42,720 Because the right answer is the consumer doesn't want to deal, 249 00:13:42,720 - > 00:13:45,519 like you said, the consumer wants to go to Chat GPT and ask 250 00:13:45,519 - > 00:13:45,919 the question. 251 00:13:45,919 - > 00:13:48,559 And the consumer really wants to end up completing the order 252 00:13:48,559 - > 00:13:51,200 through chat, they don't want to end up going to a site, they 253 00:13:51,200 - > 00:13:53,120 want to be able to complete that order there, right? 254 00:13:53,120 - > 00:13:56,559 But in order for that to happen, where it meets the 255 00:13:56,559 - > 00:14:00,240 objectives that the merchant has of knowing its customers, 256 00:14:00,240 - > 00:14:02,879 serving its customers, putting the right products in front of 257 00:14:02,879 - > 00:14:05,600 its customers, which it knows better than anybody else, is to 258 00:14:05,600 - > 00:14:08,960 have an energetic interface on their side that controls the 259 00:14:08,960 - > 00:14:09,519 narrative. 260 00:14:09,519 - > 00:14:11,039 That's what we do, right? 261 00:14:11,039 - > 00:14:13,600 And that's but we're the only ones right now, and it's too 262 00:14:13,600 - > 00:14:14,399 early stage. 263 00:14:14,399 - > 00:14:18,480 It needs to be common practice. 264 00:14:18,480 - > 00:14:23,360 And you know, obviously, we'd like to be the only supplier, 265 00:14:23,360 - > 00:14:24,879 but it's not going to be that way, right? 266 00:14:24,879 - > 00:14:29,679 That each merchant has the infrastructure to support the 267 00:14:29,679 - > 00:14:33,200 agents that are coming in, control the narrative and allow 268 00:14:33,200 - > 00:14:36,720 that transaction to take place, knowing who the end customer is, 269 00:14:36,720 - > 00:14:39,440 that that end customer is a regular customer, a premium 270 00:14:39,440 - > 00:14:42,399 customer, has loyalty, doesn't have loyalty, you know, likes 271 00:14:42,399 - > 00:14:45,039 this kind of room, not that kind of room, whatever it is, all 272 00:14:45,039 - > 00:14:48,240 the things that the merchant knows about their customers or 273 00:14:48,240 - > 00:14:50,879 knows about that type of customer that may be appropriate 274 00:14:50,879 - > 00:14:54,720 for this other type of customer that ChatGBT and Gemini do not 275 00:14:54,720 - > 00:14:54,960 know. 276 00:14:54,960 - > 00:14:58,080 They cannot, they might think they can stand in front of 277 00:14:58,080 - > 00:15:01,519 everything, but they can't represent the merchant properly. 278 00:15:01,519 - > 00:15:02,799 So the merchant needs to be. 279 00:15:02,799 - > 00:15:05,440 I think that's partly why you're seeing such amazing 280 00:15:05,440 - > 00:15:09,200 momentum in our business, because we talk sense to the 281 00:15:09,200 - > 00:15:09,679 merchants. 282 00:15:09,679 - > 00:15:11,600 We say, look, we're going to solve this for you. 283 00:15:11,600 - > 00:15:14,399 You need to be visible to those guys, but you need to control 284 00:15:14,399 - > 00:15:14,960 the narrative. 285 00:15:14,960 - > 00:15:18,480 And that's sort of that is how the future of agenda commerce 286 00:15:18,480 - > 00:15:19,440 will play out. 287 00:15:19,440 - > 00:15:23,200 A symbiotic relationship between the merchant and the 288 00:15:23,200 - > 00:15:26,879 front end of Chat GPT or Gemini or whoever it is. 289 00:15:27,200 - > 00:15:27,440 Karen Webster: Right. 290 00:15:27,440 - > 00:15:30,559 I mean, the merchant wants to remain the merchant of record. 291 00:15:30,559 - > 00:15:35,440 They don't want to be anonymized as part of these 292 00:15:35,440 - > 00:15:37,360 platforms and the aggregated platforms. 293 00:15:37,759 - > 00:15:40,480 Dan Wagner: I I don't think that that swap is being promoted by 294 00:15:40,480 - > 00:15:41,200 the other players. 295 00:15:41,200 - > 00:15:43,120 I don't think they're trying to be the merchant of record. 296 00:15:43,120 - > 00:15:45,360 And if they are, that's never going to work, right? 297 00:15:45,360 - > 00:15:49,440 But I think that they want to have access to insert the order 298 00:15:49,440 - > 00:15:52,720 into the retailer's site on behalf of their customers, you 299 00:15:52,720 - > 00:15:54,480 know, just because they did a deal with Stripe, I think 300 00:15:54,480 - > 00:15:57,519 ChatGPT, and they did, you know, we'll pay, we'll pay you, we'll 301 00:15:57,519 - > 00:16:01,440 sort it out, we'll push the order into your systems, you 302 00:16:01,440 - > 00:16:03,120 know, you then deliver it to the customer. 303 00:16:03,120 - > 00:16:05,679 I think the merchants are going, whoa, hold on a sec. 304 00:16:05,679 - > 00:16:08,559 You know, we know our customers, we don't want to just 305 00:16:08,559 - > 00:16:11,679 have these orders come to us that ultimately might be having 306 00:16:11,679 - > 00:16:14,799 to be refunded or replaced because it was sold incorrectly. 307 00:16:14,799 - > 00:16:16,960 We don't want that overhead. 308 00:16:16,960 - > 00:16:20,399 And we don't want to lose connection with our end 309 00:16:20,399 - > 00:16:20,960 customer. 310 00:16:20,960 - > 00:16:22,960 We want to maintain that experience. 311 00:16:23,279 - > 00:16:25,200 Karen Webster: I think it depends on the business model. 312 00:16:25,200 - > 00:16:32,720 You know, are these models a marketplace or are they simply 313 00:16:32,720 - > 00:16:34,000 another commerce channel? 314 00:16:34,000 - > 00:16:38,000 And I think that's we don't know the answer really at this 315 00:16:38,000 - > 00:16:41,200 point, because if you think about the potential for what you 316 00:16:41,200 - > 00:16:46,320 described, Agentic is a completely different way of 317 00:16:46,320 - > 00:16:50,960 enabling commerce, um, whether it's completely fulfilled in the 318 00:16:50,960 - > 00:16:54,720 in the virtual digital world or whether it's started in the 319 00:16:54,720 - > 00:16:58,000 virtual world, digital world, and fulfilled in the physical 320 00:16:58,000 - > 00:16:58,399 world. 321 00:16:58,399 - > 00:17:01,840 But but it but the way we're talking about it today, it's 322 00:17:01,840 - > 00:17:04,559 almost as if it's another digital channel. 323 00:17:04,559 - > 00:17:07,920 And I think that's short, I think that's shortchanging its 324 00:17:07,920 - > 00:17:08,480 potential. 325 00:17:09,119 - > 00:17:11,119 Dan Wagner: You're absolutely right, Karen. 326 00:17:11,119 - > 00:17:13,279 You are a thousand percent right. 327 00:17:13,279 - > 00:17:15,599 And it is absolutely equivalent to the file. 328 00:17:15,599 - > 00:17:16,720 I keep saying it. 329 00:17:16,720 - > 00:17:19,039 E-commerce as we know it is dead. 330 00:17:19,039 - > 00:17:20,240 It's over. 331 00:17:20,240 - > 00:17:22,960 That interface is finished. 332 00:17:22,960 - > 00:17:27,279 That experience that we have of searching a search box and 333 00:17:27,279 - > 00:17:30,240 navigating with a left-hand chat set of categories and getting 334 00:17:30,240 - > 00:17:32,000 40 items and 40s and going through a check. 335 00:17:32,000 - > 00:17:34,480 That's finished, that's never going to be the case again. 336 00:17:34,480 - > 00:17:38,559 That's like mail order, telephone mail order, mail-in, 337 00:17:38,559 - > 00:17:39,359 mail order, right? 338 00:17:39,359 - > 00:17:42,240 Where you get a catalog and you look through it and you pull 339 00:17:42,240 - > 00:17:44,960 out a coupon and you send it back in the mail, which you 340 00:17:44,960 - > 00:17:46,559 probably won't remember, you're too young. 341 00:17:46,559 - > 00:17:50,400 And it was around and very prevalent in the 50s and 60s. 342 00:17:50,400 - > 00:17:54,240 And now we have a situation where e-commerce is over. 343 00:17:54,240 - > 00:17:56,480 Nobody's going to shop that way anymore. 344 00:17:56,480 - > 00:17:58,640 The new way needs a new system. 345 00:17:58,640 - > 00:18:02,720 The new system is agentic, the new agentic system sits on the 346 00:18:02,720 - > 00:18:05,920 blockchain, the new payment systems is stable coins. 347 00:18:05,920 - > 00:18:11,039 The infrastructure has to accommodate volume of activity 348 00:18:11,039 - > 00:18:14,640 that is hundreds and hundreds of times greater than what we're 349 00:18:14,640 - > 00:18:15,359 seeing today. 350 00:18:15,359 - > 00:18:19,519 Because agents don't go one by one, they go everywhere 351 00:18:19,519 - > 00:18:20,079 instantly. 352 00:18:20,079 - > 00:18:24,400 And so volume is going to go through the roof, interaction is 353 00:18:24,400 - > 00:18:26,880 going to probably remain the same, but the activity behind 354 00:18:26,880 - > 00:18:31,359 the scenes are going to be massively more uh uh uh uh um 355 00:18:31,359 - > 00:18:32,000 intense. 356 00:18:32,000 - > 00:18:35,359 And the infrastructure that we have today doesn't support that. 357 00:18:37,279 - > 00:18:40,240 Karen Webster: So, Dan, what's on the critical path as you 358 00:18:40,240 - > 00:18:45,440 envision agentic as this next evolution of commerce? 359 00:18:45,440 - > 00:18:47,519 What needs to go right? 360 00:18:47,519 - > 00:18:54,480 And what could stand in the way of that going right, in your 361 00:18:54,480 - > 00:18:55,039 view? 362 00:18:55,599 - > 00:18:57,920 Dan Wagner: Well, I I don't think I think that there needs 363 00:18:57,920 - > 00:19:01,200 to be a new payment infrastructure in place that 364 00:19:01,200 - > 00:19:02,319 replaces the existing one. 365 00:19:02,319 - > 00:19:04,799 And of course, we've introduced Resolve Pay, and we believe 366 00:19:04,799 - > 00:19:05,359 that is it. 367 00:19:05,359 - > 00:19:08,240 Okay, so I'm doubling down big time on that. 368 00:19:08,240 - > 00:19:10,799 I've got an infrastructure sitting behind it in the 369 00:19:10,799 - > 00:19:13,279 blockchain, stablecoin payments, and so on. 370 00:19:13,279 - > 00:19:16,640 And and although it's not uh in the public domain yet, a very 371 00:19:16,640 - > 00:19:20,960 innovative and very cool way to onboard millions and millions of 372 00:19:20,960 - > 00:19:24,480 consumers in a very elegant way, which is not there today by 373 00:19:24,480 - > 00:19:25,200 anybody else, right? 374 00:19:25,519 - > 00:19:28,160 Karen Webster: So so so why so why do you think there needs to 375 00:19:28,160 - > 00:19:32,400 be new payment credentials when consumers have payment 376 00:19:32,400 - > 00:19:37,519 credentials that are tokenized, and these tokens can carry 377 00:19:37,519 - > 00:19:40,079 intelligence around identity and preferences? 378 00:19:40,559 - > 00:19:41,759 Dan Wagner: You can't no, that's possible. 379 00:19:41,759 - > 00:19:42,640 You can do that. 380 00:19:42,640 - > 00:19:48,160 It does, but it's it's a it it it's it's old tech. 381 00:19:48,160 - > 00:19:51,200 It's it's sitting on old rails. 382 00:19:51,200 - > 00:19:57,200 And uh the the end payment is the volume of end payments isn't 383 00:19:57,200 - > 00:20:00,000 going to go up massively unless you're using micropayments, 384 00:20:00,000 - > 00:20:04,480 which of course uh um a gen tick payment infrastructure can 385 00:20:04,480 - > 00:20:07,759 support uh and stable coins can support, but traditional 386 00:20:07,759 - > 00:20:10,400 currencies, uh fiat currencies can't, because you can't pay 387 00:20:10,400 - > 00:20:11,920 with a fraction of a penny somewhere. 388 00:20:11,920 - > 00:20:15,359 So the old roles aren't designed for the new era. 389 00:20:15,359 - > 00:20:16,720 Will they be around for a while? 390 00:20:16,720 - > 00:20:17,839 Yes, they'll be around for 20 years. 391 00:20:17,839 - > 00:20:21,039 I don't think they're gonna go as quickly as e-commerce will 392 00:20:21,039 - > 00:20:21,359 go. 393 00:20:21,359 - > 00:20:24,880 Um, but I think that the uh I think that one of those, one of 394 00:20:24,880 - > 00:20:27,759 the tenants is payment is a payment infrastructure designed 395 00:20:27,759 - > 00:20:31,440 for the next phase, and the other is a commerce 396 00:20:31,440 - > 00:20:33,200 infrastructure that's designed for the next phase. 397 00:20:33,200 - > 00:20:36,880 And our commerce infrastructure is not designed today for the 398 00:20:36,880 - > 00:20:37,759 next phase. 399 00:20:37,759 - > 00:20:39,839 So we we are trying to change that. 400 00:20:39,839 - > 00:20:44,960 And remember, I was one of the pioneers in um in online 401 00:20:44,960 - > 00:20:48,640 enterprise e-commerce with with Bender in 1998, which was a 402 00:20:48,640 - > 00:20:51,359 cloud-based commerce stack before we were thinking of 403 00:20:51,359 - > 00:20:52,240 cloud-based anything. 404 00:20:52,240 - > 00:20:52,960 Yeah, yeah. 405 00:20:52,960 - > 00:20:55,920 Uh that was way that was way before people were thinking 406 00:20:55,920 - > 00:20:56,640 about cloud. 407 00:20:56,640 - > 00:21:00,480 It was, in fact, uh Salesforce started in 1999, we started in 408 00:21:00,480 - > 00:21:01,039 1998. 409 00:21:01,039 - > 00:21:04,480 So we're all kind of right at the lead of that SaaS 410 00:21:04,480 - > 00:21:05,039 revolution. 411 00:21:05,039 - > 00:21:08,160 And here we are now at the lead of the agentic revolution, and 412 00:21:08,160 - > 00:21:13,119 it is, I mean, infinitely bigger an opportunity, infinitely 413 00:21:13,119 - > 00:21:16,079 bigger um uh a transition. 414 00:21:16,079 - > 00:21:20,559 And it's it's super exciting because the retailers that get 415 00:21:20,559 - > 00:21:23,839 it right, just as they did in the dot-com era, the retailers 416 00:21:23,839 - > 00:21:26,640 that get it right will run away with this. 417 00:21:26,640 - > 00:21:30,400 Because if they can this, if they can represent their 418 00:21:30,400 - > 00:21:32,960 products properly through the channels that people are going 419 00:21:32,960 - > 00:21:38,400 to go to naturally, Siri and Google, Gemini and Chat GBT and 420 00:21:38,400 - > 00:21:42,799 what have you, uh, and Alexa or whatever, uh, and if they can 421 00:21:42,799 - > 00:21:45,920 represent their products there properly, non hallucinatory and 422 00:21:45,920 - > 00:21:51,119 you know, not not conflate, and they can manage the agent volume 423 00:21:51,119 - > 00:21:54,160 that's going to come to their sites, interrogating their sites 424 00:21:54,160 - > 00:21:56,799 and answer them in an intelligent way, manage them in 425 00:21:56,799 - > 00:21:58,079 an intelligent way, will win. 426 00:21:58,079 - > 00:21:59,359 They'll win. 427 00:22:00,319 - > 00:22:02,640 Karen Webster: Who's leaning in from the merchant perspective? 428 00:22:02,640 - > 00:22:05,519 You don't have to give names, but are the enterprise 429 00:22:05,519 - > 00:22:07,440 middle-tier merchants? 430 00:22:07,440 - > 00:22:13,440 Who really says, yes, I get this, I understand it. 431 00:22:13,440 - > 00:22:17,119 I want to be part of the first wave. 432 00:22:17,519 - > 00:22:19,759 Dan Wagner: Well, I think everybody who's coming to us, 433 00:22:19,759 - > 00:22:22,319 and we've seen this, yeah, I'm sure you know, under 434 00:22:22,319 - > 00:22:23,680 unbelievable momentum. 435 00:22:23,680 - > 00:22:26,640 And I built businesses, as you know, through my career. 436 00:22:26,640 - > 00:22:28,000 I've never seen anything like this. 437 00:22:28,000 - > 00:22:30,000 This is, you know, extraordinary. 438 00:22:30,000 - > 00:22:32,000 I mean, it's gratifying, but extraordinary. 439 00:22:32,000 - > 00:22:35,839 I think that a lot of these retailers want to be with the 440 00:22:35,839 - > 00:22:40,799 company that's holding the the beacon, showing the way, right? 441 00:22:40,799 - > 00:22:42,000 We're showing the way. 442 00:22:42,000 - > 00:22:43,839 We're saying this is how it's going to be, but I don't think 443 00:22:43,839 - > 00:22:44,960 anyone's talking like us. 444 00:22:44,960 - > 00:22:48,640 There isn't anyone out there who is setting out a path. 445 00:22:48,640 - > 00:22:51,200 There's a lot of kind of, oh, the stablecoin, you know, we're 446 00:22:51,200 - > 00:22:52,400 gonna there's oh agentic. 447 00:22:52,400 - > 00:22:54,480 I don't think anyone's actually, they're just throwing 448 00:22:54,480 - > 00:22:55,200 these names around. 449 00:22:55,200 - > 00:22:59,039 I don't think there's a real clarity around what I've been 450 00:22:59,039 - > 00:22:59,519 saying to you. 451 00:22:59,519 - > 00:23:02,319 I think I'm telling you exactly how it's gonna be, and there's 452 00:23:02,319 - > 00:23:05,519 nobody out there who's saying it anything else, right? 453 00:23:05,519 - > 00:23:08,319 They're just talking agentic, who's really saying we're doing 454 00:23:08,319 - > 00:23:11,839 this or that to meet the market demand. 455 00:23:11,839 - > 00:23:14,240 This is how it's gonna go, because I don't think anyone's 456 00:23:14,240 - > 00:23:18,160 being bold enough to stand by their convictions in this. 457 00:23:18,160 - > 00:23:21,359 I think there's a lot of noise out there, and that's fine 458 00:23:21,359 - > 00:23:24,319 because it typically happens in these situations that you get 459 00:23:24,319 - > 00:23:25,599 this kind of dynamic. 460 00:23:25,599 - > 00:23:31,440 But um we do believe that we know exactly what's happening, 461 00:23:31,440 - > 00:23:34,640 and we do believe what needs to be done, and we're doubling down 462 00:23:34,640 - > 00:23:38,319 on making sure that we take advantage of that knowledge. 463 00:23:38,319 - > 00:23:42,480 Uh, and I think that the market, even if we're wrong, I 464 00:23:42,480 - > 00:23:45,599 don't think we are, of course, but even if we're wrong, the 465 00:23:45,599 - > 00:23:50,720 merchant base that we're signing up want to believe us, want to 466 00:23:50,720 - > 00:23:53,599 be with us because they so I think the answer to your 467 00:23:53,599 - > 00:23:54,960 question is slightly caveated. 468 00:23:54,960 - > 00:23:58,079 It's I don't think that the retailers who are who are with 469 00:23:58,079 - > 00:24:00,559 us today are all into this. 470 00:24:00,559 - > 00:24:02,559 I think they're just all into our vision. 471 00:24:02,559 - > 00:24:06,160 I think they're all into the fact that they need somebody to 472 00:24:06,160 - > 00:24:08,160 give them a guide to this because they don't know which 473 00:24:08,160 - > 00:24:08,799 way to turn. 474 00:24:08,799 - > 00:24:13,039 And we're the only ones who have a very clear, credible path 475 00:24:13,039 - > 00:24:14,559 to navigate through this. 476 00:24:14,880 - > 00:24:17,039 Karen Webster: Well, listen, Dan, I hope we have the chance 477 00:24:17,039 - > 00:24:18,079 to uh to chat again. 478 00:24:18,079 - > 00:24:20,559 Congratulations on all the great work that you've done at 479 00:24:20,559 - > 00:24:23,119 Resolve and you know look forward to staying in touch. 480 00:24:23,200 - > 00:24:26,640 It is a very dynamic, active, and very interesting space. 481 00:24:27,119 - > 00:24:29,039 Dan Wagner: Karen, thank you very much for inviting me to be 482 00:24:29,039 - > 00:24:31,759 on this call and very much to be part of this conversation. 483 00:24:31,759 - > 00:24:33,440 And I look forward to speaking with you again. 484 00:24:33,759 - > 00:24:34,559 Karen Webster: Thank you, me too. 485 00:24:34,559 - > 00:24:35,279 Bye-bye now. 486 00:24:35,599 - > 00:24:36,400 Dan Wagner: Okay, bye. 487 00:24:40,480 - > 00:24:43,759 Narrator: That's it for this episode of the PYMNTS Podcast: 488 00:24:43,759 - > 00:24:45,680 The Thinking Behind the Doing. 489 00:24:45,680 - > 00:24:49,359 Conversations with the leaders transforming payments, commerce, 490 00:24:49,359 - > 00:24:50,799 and the digital economy. 491 00:24:50,799 - > 00:24:54,240 Be sure to follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. 492 00:24:54,240 - > 00:24:58,799 You can also catch every episode at PYMNTS.com/ podcasts. 493 00:24:59,839 - > 00:25:01,599 Thanks for listening.