Practical Product Management · 2024-09-04 · 42 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
28 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Product managers wield significant power to shape user behavior, but that power is often misused through deceptive practices that prioritize revenue over genuine customer benefit. This episode explores concrete examples of manipulation across travel, e-commerce, and social platforms: artificial scarcity and urgency tactics in ticketing and hotels, hidden fees that obscure true pricing, invasive cookie tracking with confusing consent banners, manipulative charity checkout buttons that induce guilt, and algorithmic echo chambers optimized for rage rather than wellbeing. Speakers discuss how practices like making opt-outs nearly impossible, hiding return policy details in terms and conditions, and selling customer data to third parties represent a betrayal of product management's potential. The core tension examined is whether PMs can drive revenue and investor returns while genuinely improving lives, or whether current incentive structures inherently reward harm - turning users into dopamine-seeking creatures chasing artificial rewards rather than solving real problems. Product leaders, designers, and operators in travel, fintech, retail, and social platforms will recognize these patterns in their own work.
These fake urgency tactics (like 'only one left' or 'four people looking') are designed to create anxiety and trigger immediate purchase decisions. While they raise conversion rates even when true, speakers argue the anxiety-inducing presentation is ethically questionable and manipulative, especially when inventory is actually abundant.
You lose the hotel's discretionary support and customer service. If you book through a discount travel site, the hotel has no obligation to help you with upgrades, room changes, or rebooking if something goes wrong - unlike direct bookings where the hotel often makes accommodations for loyal customers.
Cookie banners present only two options: 'Accept All' or a complicated preference management process designed to be so difficult that users just click accept. Most users don't realize their behavior is being tracked and sold to data brokers, and speakers argue transparent session tracking without persistent cookies would provide sufficient analytics.
While donation matching does fund charities, retailers use these campaigns primarily for marketing and reputation building - to claim they 'care about puppies' when they don't have women in leadership or invest in diversity. The guilt-based button design ('Yes, save puppies' vs. implicitly 'No, hurt puppies') manipulates rather than genuinely educates customers.
Platforms optimize algorithms for engagement and ad revenue by promoting content that triggers strong emotional reactions. Users can rapidly transition from watching harmless videos to consuming angry or violent content that keeps them on the platform longer, rewiring their brain chemistry through dopamine hits rather than improving their wellbeing.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode circles familiar dark-pattern topics (fake scarcity, hidden fees, cookies, rage-bait algorithms) with mostly obvious observations and no new frameworks or non-obvious claims a working PM hasn't already encountered.
we're basically, you know, big rats running around a dopamine maze
the blinking, flashing, attention grabbing, anxiety inducing, trying to make you so anxious that you click and buy
Takes are recycled from well-worn discourse - Cambridge Analytica, 'don't be evil,' teen mental health, dark patterns - with little contrarian or first-principles reasoning beyond restating common critiques.
for anybody listening that hasn't actually watched the Great Hack
We're no longer. We no longer give a shit about do no evil. It's all about ads
No external guest; two hosts converse and describe themselves generally as product/coaching people, but the transcript offers no evidence of scaled operating experience or specific credentials.
as product managers, we have the ability to bring solutions to life that solve people's problems
So the question for me as I coach people is, am I coaching them in a way that I can say I'm becoming the kind of person I want to be?
Relies on personal anecdotes (United flight rebooking, India hotel) and hypotheticals rather than data; no metrics, dollar figures, or named company case studies with concrete outcomes.
Meanwhile, there might be 74 left and no one looking at it
something like 49% of all of the countries in the world are having an election in 2024
The two hosts consistently agree and reinforce each other with almost no probing questions or pushback, producing exactly the echo chamber they critique rather than productive tension.
I love it. And it is controversial. Like, I have an opinion, so yay.
100. That heightened scent, uh, of urgency.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this episode, Leah and Marilyn delve into the often-overlooked negative aspects of product management, highlighting how certain practices can harm users. They cover the ethical concerns surrounding manipulative marketing tactics, the pervasive use of cookies for tracking user behavior, and the role of algorithms in fostering echo chambers and amplifying divisive content. Throughout the discussion, they emphasize the need for product managers to consider the long-term consequences of their decisions, advocating for a more responsible approach to product development that prioritizes the well-being of users and society at large. Key Takeaways Long-Term Impact: Product managers must consider the long-term effects of their products on users and focus on creating solutions that enhance, rather than diminish, quality of life. Ethical Marketing: Avoid using manipulative marketing tactics, such as fear, guilt, or urgency, which can negatively affect users and erode trust. User Privacy: The practice of using cookies to track and collect data without user consent is unethical and needs to be addressed through more transparent and respectful data practices.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: It's time for our podcast again. It's practical product management, where we talk about how things are practical instead of just theoretical, um, and how they show up. And today I think we're talking about something that is very interesting. Maybe a little controversial or a lot controversial, I don't know. But we want to talk about the dark side of product management. What do you think?
Speaker B: I love it. And it is controversial. Like, I have an opinion, so yay.
Speaker A: I love when we have opinions. I mean, are there very many things we don't have an opinion about?
Speaker B: Not very many.
Speaker A: Yeah. Ah, exactly. So let's talk about the dark side of product management. Let's start by defining it. Like, what are we saying is dark? What. What are some of the dark things that happen out there?
Speaker B: Yeah, I think that, um, I mean, you know, as product managers, we have the ability to bring solutions to life that solve people's problems. Yeah. Um, and, and I think that we get so wrapped up sometimes in, in getting people to do what we want, um, that we actually create anti patterns, um, and whether that's like making something really hard to opt out of or, you know, not allowing someone to just be like, don't cookie me. Oh, sorry, am I allowed to say bad words on the podcast?
Speaker A: Yes, we can swear on our podcast.
Speaker B: You know, the, the things that actually make your life net less better as the human on the other side of the screen. Like. Hm. I mean, I, you know, I always say that we're basically, you know, big rats running around a dopamine maze, pushing a level or getting the little pellet.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, and I, you know, are we making things easy, simple and, and accessible for our users in a way that benefits them as people?
Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah, it's a, it's a good question, I think, you know, thinking about this, I thought about how many times in my career I've thought, thought or said out loud to my team or to the people I was leading, customers don't know what they want. Like, like they have an idea of what they want, but it's our job to go deeper.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: And I think that some, some, to some degree that's true. Customers will often say, this is the problem, and as you dig in, it's actually somewhere else. Right. Yeah, but how are we, you know, are we making choices that actually improve what they need improved instead of what we can make money on?
Speaker B: Yeah. And how do you balance that responsibility? Right. I think that's because you're not in business to not make money.
Speaker A: Right, right. Right.
Speaker B: But how do you do that without like hiding things or being transparent about pricing or.
Speaker A: Ah, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about some of the examples that we see. Um, so, I mean, one that comes to my mind is, um, and I think, you know, you and I talked about this before as well. Like this idea that as I'm going through some sort of checkout experience or as I'm going through some sort of customer experience, there's this little bit of me that's like, I can't miss out on this. I have FOMO. I need to get this now because there's only one left.
Speaker B: There's four people looking at it.
Speaker A: Exactly. Meanwhile, there might be 74 left and no one looking at it. And I know that, I know that that might not be true. And I still can fall for it.
Speaker B: 100. That heightened scent, uh, of urgency. Yeah. And I, I just think it's very used car salesman. I think we see it a lot in, um, travel. I think we see it a lot in ticketing. Um, I know that it raises conversion. I know that it raises conversion, um, even when it's true and four people are looking at, four people are looking at that event, but there's thousands of tickets left. Um, is that really what we want people to do? Is that the experience we want them to happen? And if it's true and there's like one unique unicorn left and there are two people looking at it and you know, I want it, it's find a signal to me. Yeah, but the blinking, flashing, attention grabbing, anxiety inducing, trying to make you so anxious that you click and buy.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, I actually find that really unsettling.
Speaker A: Uh, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I mean the other, I think the other thing that we've talked about is like this idea similar and uh, like adjacent, certainly in the ticketing and travel space. This idea that like, we act as though that our pricing is transparent and good and whatever. And so we say, like this price, we're going to give it to you for the lowest cost ever.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Meanwhile, so if you go over here, you're not going to get this deal. But you and I both know that the price is not going to be such a big differential because someone's going to make the same amount of money on this.
Speaker B: Yeah. Right. And it'll show up in the end. Price and fees or, uh, like a something. Uh, I think the funniest thing about these things is that, is that that the asset, whether it's a hotel room or a seat on a plane or a seat At a concert. Um, that's kind of like if you add up all the fees and you look at it in all the places, it's kind of the same thing everywhere. Um, I think what differs is, uh, you know, the class of service you're going to get when you. You purchase it. So there's. There's a bunch of stuff you don't see that no one's being transparent about. Right, Right. Um, and I think I was, I was telling you this, this story. Um, like, imagine that you bought something from a. A cut rate, ah, travel site.
Speaker A: Yep.
Speaker B: Um, and you bought two.
Speaker A: Never. I would never. You want a good deal, right?
Speaker B: You want a good deal, right? Um. But travel is getting increasingly more complicated. I think that more people are going back to traveling. There's more demand, there's more weather disruptions, there's more chance of things going horribly wrong. Um, and, uh, this last week, Friday, I was on the way back from, um, a trip and I had a layover. Uh, and, um, I had just bought from our corporate travel agency that just buys from the airline that I prefer. Um, and my flight out was delayed. Uh, and my connecting flight. We actually landed when the, when the final boarding was called. We were taxing when the final boarding was called for my connected flight. Right. Um, I think there was like 20 of us on the plane that had a connecting flight. Everybody was the agent. The agent, uh, or the lady that was sort of like, um, our flight attendant. Uh, she was like, I know. Everybody's got a connecting flight. She's on.
Speaker A: Like, everyone take a breath. It's gonna be okay.
Speaker B: It was like, everybody's got a connecting flight. That's before, you know, in the next 45 minutes. Raise your hand and there's like a whole ton of us.
Speaker A: Right. Uh, well, Lucy's chasing a fly.
Speaker B: I love it. She's like, you're permitted.
Speaker A: You guys go ahead and do what you're doing. I'm gonna chase this fly.
Speaker B: So we land and, uh, now I can't stop watching. We land. Um, and the airline that I was flying with, um, like, I'm just gonna name them. Like, I, like, say what you want. Like, um. Like, I've been. I was, I was Delta for ages. Now I'm united.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Um, because if I just. They just make it right. When you just stick with them.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Right. They just make it right. So we land. I get a text on my phone and they're like, don't worry, we're going to pick you up at the gate and bring you around. We're holding your flight. Uh, and so there's like 25 of us that are bolting off this airplane. Um, they picked me up at the gate. They drove me around to my gate. I got on my plane. There were two other people that happened to be on my plane that, like, about five minutes later came puffing down the aisle, like, breathing hard because they had to run through the airport. But I imagine if I would have bought that ticket somewhere else, there's no way that airline would have made sure. They don't. They don't care. They don't know.
Speaker A: Right, Right. Uh, I mean, exactly that. Like, I. There's a. There's a pretty famous clip on. In. I think it's Instagram, and I think I've seen it on TikTok as well. Where there you. You can see the girl sitting at the. The woman sitting at the desk in the hotel trying to check this person in. And the man has said, like, we don't have. The room that you're giving us isn't big enough for us. And she's like, it's the one that you reserved. And he says, well, I want to change it. And she says, I can't change it because you didn't reserve it from us. You reserved it from, you know, travel company X. Yeah. And he's like, but I want you to fix it. And she's like, I can't. And like, the conversation. He's getting madder and madder at her. And she's like, nothing I can do. And he's like, well, then give me another room. And she's like, there aren't any. Like, this is the room that all, uh, were sold out. And he's like, we'll do something about it. She's like, there's nothing I can. She's like, I can't get. He's like, then I want my money back. And she's like, I can't give you your money back.
Speaker B: You didn't buy from us.
Speaker A: You didn't buy for you. So this whole conversation and like, the. The point of the video is that this man is unreasonable. However, what. From my perspective as I'm watching it, I'm like, oh, he doesn't realize. He doesn't understand. Yeah, as a consumer, he went and bought a room cheaply in his mind, and it's now paying off in a bad, bad way.
Speaker B: Works well, but you don't understand what you're. What you're leaving out of the contract in that purchase, and no one tells you. And so as A consumer. As a consumer, you're just like, oh, $40 cheaper. Cool. Excellent. Whereas if you would have had full transparency, you might have made a different choice. Uh, that actually reminds me of an instance. So I. Oh, my gosh. Um, I flew into India. Uh, and, um. Um, I landed at like 11 o' clock at night. I didn't have a flight out until, um, the, the next morning. Um. Um, the person who had booked my reservation for me screwed, um, up the first night. Hotel.
Speaker A: Oh, no.
Speaker B: So I show up at the hotel I usually show up at because I'm. I'm a pattern person. Uh, uh, and they're like, we do not have. Like, this is for tomorrow. And I'm like, oh, like, this doesn't help me tomorrow. It's 11 o' clock at night. I'm exhausted. I did not sleep. Um, they had no rooms. They were completely sold out. I burst into tears and I was like, can I just sit in your lobby for a while? Like, can I just. Can I just sit in your lobby?
Speaker A: Can I just sit down right
Speaker B: on a couch? Don't judge me. I just need a cup of tea. And do not.
Speaker A: I have a booth in the bar. Please.
Speaker B: Um, they went and cleaned a room. Not perfectly, but I didn't care because I just really wanted to lay down.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And they found, like, they found me a place to sleep for the night because I always stay there.
Speaker A: You're a regular.
Speaker B: I booked through them. Like, I don't know. I just, um. Yeah.
Speaker A: And I. And I think so. I think when we talk about sort of this bad, you know, like, bad patterns, one of the bad patterns is that when we're building and saying, let's suck them in with this price and put the fees on the back. Let's lower the front end price and put the fees on the back end and have, you know, by the time they get there, they'll just click because they'll be like, oh, well, I guess it's not that. You know, uh, and they won't remember because they've moved on from that other website. All of those things. We are not. We can claim that we're doing it for them, but that's true. You and I both know that once they put their credit card in and when they pay, we're done. Yeah. Hands clean. Moving on.
Speaker B: It's in terms and conditions. What are you talking about? They.
Speaker A: They knew what they were getting into. They didn't know.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Right. Until you've traveled, like, we've traveled. They don't know. And I think That's. That's just one example. I mean, travel is just an example. Right? Um, and I think then you start looking at, okay, how are we using, um, information, so price, availability, um, options, um, you know, like the fact that there may not be enough. Enough supply all. How are we using these facts to manipulate people into behavior that may serve us in the moment and them in the moment and then backfire later, right? And it's like, I mean, we've all bought something and thought, well, if I don't love it, I'll just return it. And then found out that we can't because m. We missed the one thing that said, Andrew, these are the only circumstances under which you can return it.
Speaker B: And you're like, I didn't.
Speaker A: I never had. Yeah, I never had those circumstances. Right? It's like, yeah, okay. You know,
Speaker B: you know the other one that chaps my eye and, um, this is a minor one, but it like, just frustrates the stuffing out of me cookies.
Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
Speaker B: Like, we. If people knew how much of their behavior was tracked and collected and shared, and it just bugs the stuffing out of me. And most of those stupid website, like cookie banners, because everybody's got them now because we're. We're like, gonna be compliant, right? Um, they either say, accept all my cookies or like, go to this place to manage your preferences, and we're gonna make it a total nightmare. So you just accept all the cookies, right? I don't think that's necessary. I. I honestly think that the bulk of the benefit of pixel tracking or tracking people with cookies does not happen with the, with the company that's putting the tracking on their website. They're actually selling your data into big conglomerates. Um, and it would be so easy to just anonymize all the session data. You can still get enough information just to instrument what's happening on your site and understand where fallout is and where people are having problems. That's a cop out. You do not need a cookie to do that.
Speaker A: Right?
Speaker B: Um, and yet we still don't make it easy for people to just say, don't track me.
Speaker A: Yeah, I don't want to be tracked. And we, I mean, to your point, it's become so ubiquitous that most people, most users have no idea what they're agreeing to. We've made. And especially, like, if we live in Europe and you have these GDPR notices that they just do this little combination like I'm telling you about GDPR and oh, by the way, here's your cookies, right? And they do These little combo banners. And so people are like, okay, right.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And the average user has no idea what they've just done. And that now, uh, they know where you are and what you're doing and how you're doing it and what you're going to do next. And they've sold your information. And then people are so surprised when they get an ad because something was listening to them.
Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, someone's listening to me.
Speaker A: You're carrying a listening device in your pocket. Congrats.
Speaker B: Did you. Did you read your end user license agreement?
Speaker A: Like, right.
Speaker B: No one reads the fine print.
Speaker A: No, no, no. And I've had these conversations. I mean, I'm sure you have, too. Like, as early adopters of things like Alexa don't wake up. Um, people will say, well, I don't want something listening to me. And I'm like, this thing you carry in your pocket? Uh, yeah, mine's right here. I mean, so I signed up for that. And then I've had people say, like, oh, I can't, I can't. I would never. Okay, well, is this in your pocket?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Yeah, you would.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: And so I think. And so then when something happens that feels suspicious, people are like, oh, someone's tracking me. And I'm like, yeah, you agreed to it.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: You pushed the button because you wanted the thing. Sorry.
Speaker B: You just wanted that pop up to go away. And the only option was accept or really complicated. Unsubscribe. We're not really going to tell you the details, and it's going to seem, frankly, a little threatening.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: So just. Just to get the. Just to get the consumable good in the moment, we're just going to click. Okay.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And then the other one that I think is. I agree with you 100% on cookies. And I think the other one that I think is, like, shameful, and yet I have absolutely been like, yeah, yeah, whatever. Is the. You know, would you round up for the children that are starving in, you know, lower Alabama? Right. Or would you. Do you. Don't you want. Don't you want dogs to be able to learn to read?
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Whatever. Whatever it is that they're trying to convince me I'm giving money to.
Speaker B: Right. It's not, will you please give money to starving dogs? It's like, why do you hate starving puppies, Leah? Um, the button is like. The button is like, yes, save the puppies or no, murder them all.
Speaker A: And you start to hear somehow they. They can get Sarah McLaughlin to start singing in the eye of the angel in the background. And I'm like, just say, take all my money.
Speaker B: I mean, I click no. But in my head going, you're an.
Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. And that's. And the thing is, there is a. While there is an intent there that is like, let's give to this so that we can do this good thing. There is often a nefarious purpose. If you're shopping at a retail place and they're taking money for charity, they are going to then release that they have raised a million dollars for the puppies and that they are the. The retail place of choice because they care about puppies. And that shop over there doesn't care about puppies.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And they've now manipulated us into, like, I have to shop there because they care about puppies. Puppies. Right.
Speaker B: You cared about the puppy. Every person cared about because it was because they were manipulated into caring about puppies.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Because everybody else.
Speaker A: Marketing. Yeah. Right. And for them, it's not. Yeah. Okay. Yes, they did a nice thing. They gave money for the puppies. But they are doing that not out of the goodness of their heart generally, but out of the need to, you know, do something for marketing purposes. And it's. It's how pink washing happens. It's how rainbow washing happens. It's how, you know, all. All of these things. Right. Is that we fall prey to, like, this company cares about women. Do they. They don't have any women on their board. They don't have any women executives. But I gave a dollar to girls who code.
Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, okay. Cool.
Speaker A: Awesome. They care about girls. No, they don't.
Speaker B: They don't.
Speaker A: They care about being seen as a company that cares about girls and women.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Or puppies or whatever the topic of the moment. But I. I think, again, there is a. I think for a lot of young product managers, we would think, like, but I did a good thing.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And there is a nefarious behavior happening there if you're not doing it in a way that allows the customer to walk away from that thing without feeling shame and guilt.
Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think the. The shame and guilt on the button and then the transparency and the like, hey, our customers donated.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: To this cause. So there's transparency thing. I also, um. Even just in the general interaction. So let's, um. All of these things are very true. Um, but let's. Let's talk about, like, I don't know what about one of, you know, my favorite website. Um, they're driven by me clicking and Reading and, and scrolling.
Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker B: M. They're optimizing their algorithms to get my a reaction from me.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Um, not always that always. That algorithm doesn't always take into consideration what's best for my mental health.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Um, or how, how the, the, the presentation of this information results in. And humanity being net better.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Um, and so as a result some of these sites will send us down into like echo chambers of rage bait. Um, because they're, they're optimized for behavior that doesn't actually lead to um. Net good.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And, and I do think it's. There's this really interesting conversation to be had about where is the balance between um, driving revenue.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I mean if you're a public company, your investors and your board probably want you to drive revenue, um, and making things better for people. Are you really considering the human on the other side of your product and not just trying to drive. Not. You don't just, you know, you're not just trying to say like what can I do to get them to stay longer? Is longer better? Um, but how do you start to disrupt things when maybe they don't lead to the long term good of your user? Like are you making your users better or are you making them, you know, lazier and angrier and more racist?
Speaker A: Uh, and misogynists and terrible? Yeah, exactly. And I know we have, I know we have a plan to talk a little bit more about sort of racism and sexism and you know, bigotry in general and how it shows up in products, but I think you're absolutely right. I think what's fascinating to me is this, um, like you said, like the, what we know, we're doing what we know, what you and I know and what I think anyone who studies human psychology knows is we are creating a chemical reaction in all of the things we just described. Right. And rage baiting people is one of the ultimate chemical reactions. Right. So what we do is, you know, the brain does a couple things, but what it primarily kicks off is dopamine and serotonin and uh, you know, endorphins and you know, all cortisol, all these things. And if we can get a reaction out of people, they will take a step and if they take that step, they may, they there's more ad revenue or there's something else that happens and they go down this. And anything that is either very rewarding. So gamification. I got to have a thing that no one else got to have, you know, any like. So if I am, um, if there's two of us going for the hotel room and I get the hotel room. I win. Okay, Right, Sure.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: So anything like that is huge. And then anything that can absolutely drive me to action or anger or frustration, that keeps me on this loop.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Those are the things that create revenue, movement, progression down the rabbit hole. And to your point, I mean, I, you know, you and I talked about this. Like, I have been fascinated by how some of these sites, their algorithms, move quickly. One minute I'm looking at puppies and kittens and seeing more puppies and kittens, and the next minute I've watched one video that's a 911 call where someone's been shot. And now I've watched 72911 calls and my heart is pounding and I'm angry at the world and I think this is terrible. And I'm scared.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I'm like, where are the puppies and kittens? Right. I no longer have seen the puppies, you know, and so it's. Is absolutely creating a chemical reaction. And again, I think a lot of young product managers don't know. They know that they're, that they're getting closer to the OKR or the KPI or the uptick is happening that they want. But, but they don't, they don't know that what they're doing is good for humanity or good for people or good for individuals. If they thought about it, they probably know.
Speaker B: But I think even in the instance where people are trying to solve things like loneliness, um, and disconnection, I mean, I think you and I were talking about this, uh, Japanese dating app that allows you to date and marry an AI and people are doing this because there's a dearth of loneliness. But does that really, does that really create human connection? I think it's a band aid. Um, and I don't know what the long term outcome of that. I think we've talked a little bit about some of the phenomenon here in the US with, you know, maybe, maybe some of these groups that get labeled incel, become very isolated, um, and end up in their own echo chamber of like, rage and hate.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Uh, that doesn't help bridge that connection and because maybe it doesn't drive revenue to not have them in a state of rage. Bait and rage clicking things.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, I mean, things are about to get interesting on that front. So in the uk, I think yesterday or today they announced that they're actually sending in the counterterrorism people to try to figure out how to unwind some of what the incel populations are seeing and call it terrorism. Because the epidemic of violence against women and girls in the UK is, I mean they're calling it an epidemic that gives you some indication. And so like there, there's an interest, you know, so the question is like, what is, what is the government going to do when businesses fight back? Right. Or go another angle?
Speaker B: Or how much of that was originally driven by, by some site trying to get more clicks and giving people information that made them like, gave the chemical reaction and like, how much are we feeding people's psychosis or, you know, point of view? I don't want to call it a psychosis, but how much are we feeding them a point of view until they're, until they're so weirdly isolated and pinpointed that there is no counter, um, there's no feeling of connectivity. There's just this, you know, despair that leads to weird behavior. And I, I don't think that's the only instance of it. I mean, clearly our news sites are, uh, Our news sites are riddled with it.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean this is a, this is a big election year in the world and I think that this is probably the first. I mean, I think the number I heard on the radio the other day was that something like 49% of all of the countries in the world are having an election in 2024.
Speaker B: Holy cow.
Speaker A: Either have or are having. Right. And obviously we know the big ones in the US and the UK and you know, parts of Europe, uh, those big elections, like they are more now than ever. There's a host of bad actors behind what people are seeing and how they're behaving and what's happening. Right. And the vitriol and anger is through the roof.
Speaker B: It's toxic.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: I mean, so for anybody listening that hasn't actually watched the Great Hack, which is, ah, the Netflix documentary about Cambridge Analytica, I think it's called the Great Hack. Um, this has been happening for years. Yes, for years. Where populations are being manipulated to do something that is counter to what is beneficial to them. Um, because we can manipulate human, human behavior and human emotion on the web. And I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think that if you look back at what politics and elections used to be, um, it used to be about elevating the best of us and the best of ideas. And you know, you went and you voted and you, you accepted what the people said and, and uh, just the uh, absolute. I don't want To, I mean, I don't even want to call it, um, performative art.
Speaker A: It's.
Speaker B: It is, it is a circus. It is a, it is the monkeys running the circus shit show. Absolutely. Of what is happening in politics. And that's because of, um, the way we consume media. I think.
Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think so. And I think what we're seeing, I think we're the, I think one in that particular case. And I think it's true. I mean it is sort of what's underneath the incels. And like, I think what we're seeing in the political arena is young people are going, it doesn't matter.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: What's the point? And given how nasty it is, how do we argue with them?
Speaker B: We can't. Right. Because people are no longer rational. They're no longer consuming multiple points of view.
Speaker A: Right, right. There's so kids have been baked in it. We raised them on media right in their pocket.
Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, the funny thing is, even if you try to get balanced news. So I make a point of actually trying to like, be very diverse in what I consume, um, understand different points of view. Um, the challenge is even the m. The different pieces of media because of the way that we serve content, um, the minute I'm cookie or they have some sort of idea of who I'm, who I am and what I respond to the news will change based on that.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And so I, it's. It's really hard to get a balanced point of view. It's almost impossible.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. All right, so what do we do?
Speaker B: Yeah. So I mean, what are we gonna do about it? We're gonna rail against the machine.
Speaker A: I, um, like it.
Speaker B: I mean, I think awareness is the first step and I think that a lot of, you know, years ago the books were all like, you know, how do we get people on the hamster wheel of clicking? And I think I probably got several behind me that talk about that. How do we use emotion to get people to do the things we want? I think we are obligated as product people and the people that are building products to actually understand the long term effect, uh, of our product on our, on our population. Let's talk about the mental health of, of teenage girls and social media. Yeah. Right. Um, so if you are working for one of these companies or if you're working for any company and building product, you have dark sides that you're perpetuating. You know, are you cooking people? Are you giving their information to, uh, you know, information aggregators? You probably are. You probably just, you Know, your agency told you to put a pixel on your site, and you're probably perpetuating some of this stuff. And if you really dug into what you need to do as a business, you'd realize that none of that is necessary.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: You don't need it to actually achieve your business goals. It's, in fact, I would say it's lazy. Not understanding the full chain of events is lazy. Yeah. Um, so can you. Can you look at some of these things with a very hard lens and say, why? Yeah, why do I need to do this?
Speaker A: M. Is it necessary? Do. Am I. Yeah. And I know that I. Again, I think one of the topics we're going to talk about in the future, probably with a guest, is about sort of how do we do user research? How do we validate what people need? And I think, you know, it's. It's going into user research with a true interest and curiosity and what people need and want. Ah. Instead of going in and being like, don't you. Like this? Like, uh, you know, like, don't you think this is great? Which is now, um, here for you. It was easier for other people. Is this easier for you? Even in how we talk about and research the things we're building, it requires us to actually be willing to be objective.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Not go in. I mean, we all have an opinion. We all have a. We all have our biases. Right. For sure. We. But I know it. For me, it's often come back to that easy statement of don't fall in love with the solution. Fall in love with the problem.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right. And if I fall in love with the solution, then I'm going to push like hell and do whatever it takes to get my solution to win. Right. Uh, versus if I fall in love with the problem that I'm trying to solve, I'm going to objectively try to look at it and say, okay, what's right for us as a business, but what's also right for consumers and customers?
Speaker B: And how do we balance that?
Speaker A: And how do we.
Speaker B: Because in a lot of cases, you know, there will be conflict. There is inherent conflict in what we do.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there are probably. I mean, I don't know what you think about this, but there. I know that there are probably product people out there and CEOs and founders and people out there that would say, like, these are adults, they can make their own decisions, or, why should we infantilize our consumers and treat them like children? I mean, my answer to that is because we created a system that makes it really hard to make adult decisions if you don't know all the facts.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, I would, I would say, do you want your mom or someone you love to fall prey to these things to the point of obsession? Right? And I, I think we all think about Happy Path, you know, oh, they're only going to spend five more minutes browsing. Yeah, but what if it consumes them? Is, does it, does it make their life net better? Um, is it really going to make your, you know, your dad or your brother, um, a better person to date an AI or marry one?
Speaker A: Right, right. I mean, like I said, the only reason I would do it is if I got a tax break. It probably does because, I mean, then we're talking. Now we're talking. But, huh, I'd marry the kitten if I thought I'd get a tax break. But no, I'm just kidding. That's not true, people. I don't want to hear it. That was a joke. But, you know, so it's funny because. Can you see it just. I can just see the comments now.
Speaker B: I mean, honestly, we've talked about some pretty. We've talked about some pretty sensitive topics, like. Right, this one's gonna get some comments.
Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. Well, so the thing is, I just pulled this sticky note, which, you know, I do not do sticky notes on my computer monitors, on my. Anywhere. You know that I hate that Marilyn used to get me to take action by putting sticky notes on my compute. And I'd be like, what is this? Right? What do you need? Right, what do you want?
Speaker B: Right?
Speaker A: That was. But I have a sticky note that I keep on my computer that literally says, am I becoming the type of person I want to become? Right? And this is. So the question for me as I coach people is, am I coaching them in a way that I can say I'm becoming the kind of person I want to be? And they can say the same thing. Because as a coach, I could be like, yeah, I can help you solve your problem in six months.
Speaker B: Right?
Speaker A: Because that's where the. I could make money for six months on this person. Or we could have one session and if we solve the problem, I should set you free.
Speaker B: Right?
Speaker A: So it's a different kind of interaction, different kind of customer. But for me, this very simple, am I becoming the kind of person I want to become? And am I coaching people to have that reaction? Are we as product people creating products that allow people to have the life they want and become the kind of people they want? Or are we like, how can I suck them in and take as much money from them as we call it user lifetime value for a reason.
Speaker B: We do. Right.
Speaker A: So how can I keep them forever? Right. Do you need to. Yeah.
Speaker B: Uh, I wonder if there's an interesting KPI about how do you make people's lives in that better? How do you improve someone's life? So, you know, maybe, maybe in the future, if someone's got an opinion about OKRs, and it's not just LTV, my friends, but it's like, you know, how do we make. How do we track making people's lives better? The use of our product actually improves people.
Speaker A: Yeah. I love that.
Speaker B: I would.
Speaker A: I mean, can you imagine that score?
Speaker B: M. I think a lot of. I think a lot of apps and websites would score pretty low on that right now.
Speaker A: I agree. And it's, you know, and I think if we cared more about that, what would happen? Right. It would, uh. So I think what would happen is it would mean that we had to change how we fund businesses. It would mean we'd have to build differently. It would mean that we would have to have a compelling enough product that we would have more people coming in because we might not have them for as long. Right. Yeah. And so there's things that would have to shift in what we do significantly if we were going to score ourselves on that.
Speaker B: I also wonder if, I mean, like, when you think about these mega apps. I mean, you think about these mega apps, you think about these mega sites and the billionaires that are created out of them. Billionaires. Um, because they've mastered the art that we've just talked about.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Not. Not because of altruism.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker B: Because they've mastered the art of what we just talked about. Maybe, maybe we would all be net better because we wouldn't be. We wouldn't be, um, enabling that behavior.
Speaker A: Right, Right. I mean, you think about all that. I mean, just, uh, as you said that I was thinking, you know, when whatever latest millionaire wants to build a rocket ship and go to Mars or the moon or whatever. Because they all do apparently. Like they all. All these. All these rich white men need to go to the. Go to space. Congrats. And everybody. And everybody gets mad and it's like, why are they spending their money on a space shuttle when they could spend their money on this? Don't give them the money.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Say no.
Speaker B: Just don't go there.
Speaker A: Away. Turn your cookies off. What? You know, like, instead of being mad at them when they don't spend their billions on the Good of humanity. Let's not make them billionaires by having a. You know. And I know that that probably sounds like, oh, uh, Pollyanna's back in. Right. But I, I think that the conversation is warped because we're angry once they have money.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: We're not angry when we're making them billionaires.
Speaker B: We're.
Speaker A: We're. We're obsessed with them when we're making them billionaires. Oh.
Speaker B: Uh, yeah.
Speaker A: We're proud of them. We want to be like them when they become one. And they do stuff that we're like, hey, give. Give us back some of what we gave you. They're like, no, you. Yeah, you gave me all the money. Right. And I think that's, you know, I think it requires those of us who build things to take a. A new. A different look and takes those of us who buy things. We need to take another look.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And have a different. Have a different mindset. A different conversation with yourself about what, what you're doing. How are we participating?
Speaker B: There's a cost. There's a cost to the, you know, perceived last ticket or, uh, you know, the perceived cheapest thing that you can buy or the free site that gives you all the news that tells you exactly what you want to hear. It is. It is a very expensive echo chamber. You're just not paying up front. You're paying later.
Speaker A: Yeah. And I think. I mean, I think. I don't know if you've ever read, uh, I think it's called Trillion Dollar Coach. It's about Bill Campbell, who was everybody's coach. Like the guys at Google and Jeff and, you know, uh, like Steve Jobs. He was everyone's coach, and he had been a football coach, and he became sort of this guy that they all went to for wisdom. He would absolutely be disappointed in that. We're no longer. We no longer give a shit about do no evil. It's all about ads.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And you know, that the phone is not this amazing thing that makes us more mobile and possible, but it is a device to. To manipulate and you. So I think if you read the book about him that these guys wrote. They wrote the book about him as a memorial to him after he had passed away. I think if they went back and reread their own book, they might have to take a second look at themselves. Huh?
Speaker B: I'm gonna read the book now. Thank you.
Speaker A: You'll love it. I mean, it's. It. He's an inspiring guy. And you know what didn't. Was not saying. It's all got to be non profit and we don't make any money. He was like, pro profit, pro. Let's do this. Well, but he had a soul.
Speaker B: Just don't be evil. Like, I. I actually really loved that slogan because I think it sort of underpins everything else. If you understand the person you're trying to serve and you understand their problems, not just the one you're solving, but you understand a person, um, just don't up their life.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Huh. Seems like.
Speaker A: Yeah, seems like it. So. So I do think that we will get. We may get some interesting comments on this. People who disagree with us and people who agree. I would love to have as many comments as possible. And we are happy to have more conversation about this topic.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So if you have an opinion, reach out. If you want to talk about it, reach out. We. I think I'm. I'm open to being challenged on this. I'm open to having this conversation. Right. Um, because obviously Marilyn and I have a perspective and, you know, and we probably even would draw lines in slightly different places at different points. Right. Just because of who. Who we are and how we see the world. But I think in general, we have a pretty. We have a pretty similar disposition towards all of this. And I think. I think, uh, I would be happy to be challenged if somebody wants to come and have those conversations. So.
Speaker B: Me too.
Speaker A: If you want to talk about how you're hooking your customers, come talk to us.
Speaker B: It's kind of like. I don't want. I don't want to say this out loud, but it's almost like, um, you know, uh, it feels like, uh, it's an analogy or an analog to the opioid crisis. Right.
Speaker A: Totally.
Speaker B: We gave you a great painkiller. Too bad it's screwed.
Speaker A: Why are you guys. Why are you misusing it? Because you gave it to me for a headache, that's why. So. Yeah, I. I'm 100%. I totally agree. Maybe. Maybe that's the book we're going to write. M. All right. Not. Not that we've been talking about writing a book. That's not. I don't want anybody to get any ideas, but we would if you. If we had a good one. Awesome. All right, Marilyn, I will see you in the next podcast.
Speaker B: Awesome.
Speaker A: See you next time by. Sam.
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