Solving Fashions Sizing & Sustainability Problem with Arsalan Javed (Sizekick)

Andrew Maeer Today's guest on byPoduct is Arsalan Javed. Arsalan is CPO at Munich-based Sizekick. He has a background in product design and product leadership, and one of the previous companies he worked at was acquired by Meta. Sizekick is the most accurate sizing solution for fashion e-commerce.

And today we're going to be talking about how the product Sizekick is developing gets to the heart of one of the biggest issues in e-commerce sustainability. Arsalan has a love for digital art and in his spare time he dabbles with endurance sports. Arsalan, it's great to have you with us today. Welcome to the show.

How are you doing? Arsalan doing good. Thanks for having me on. I'm very thrilled to be able to contribute to the wealth of product knowledge you're building on the podcast.

So I'm super stoked to get started. Andrew Maeer Cool, thank you very much. So as with all our podcasts, we kind of dive into things pretty quickly. So to kick things off, do you want to give our listeners an overview of SizeKick and what it is, what you're building, et cetera?

Arsalan Yes, of course. So Sizekick as you mentioned, it is a sizing solution for fashion e-commerce and also other, you could say, apparel or clothing related use cases and applications. So I think to help listeners understand what the product is we can imagine like online shopping, that imagine we're shopping online for, let's say, jeans, we see the product page and below the picture you see sizes 38, 40. Andrew Maeer Okay.

Arsalan 38, 38, so people could know what these numbers mean. Same here. Yeah, a lot of people can know what these numbers mean, but there's also a lot of people who don't and people who shop for other brands are not really sure about what size would fit them for the one they're shopping for. So what we do is that we, from SizeFig, we put a small button right there on the shop that says, find your best size.

Andrew Maeer 42, 42 in my case. Arsalan And clicking on that button opens the sizing app right on top of the shop. So people aren't taken out of their shopping experience. And then they provide some basic information like height, weight, age, and then they choose a body shape based on, let's say some body shapes that we provide based on their BMI.

Or we do this process of a video scan where users can rotate in front of a camera and have a video scan done. And with that, we're able to take their measurements and from those measurements. we're able to get size recommendations for those jeans or whatever they're shopping for. So the idea is that we're able to allow users to order one size instead of ordering many sizes and then trying them on, seeing if they fit, and then having to return the size.

And the thing about our solution or what makes it unique as compared to, let's say, other sizing solutions or other similar products is that it's based We are constantly, let's say, eye trading and improving not only the product side, but especially the tech side and the size recommendation part as well. And the idea is that we work with our, we have a partnership with our investors, Hohenstein, and they've been around for 75 years. And in that time, they bring in really valuable experience and expertise for textile and clothing engineering.

So we're able to work with them to create this dynamic sizing that is based off of let's say user or shopper fit feedback and shopper interaction. And we're able to deliver, let's say, user level or product level size recommendations that also incorporate preference. And in addition to all of this, let's say, high tech sizing, accuracy, and very user friendly user interfaces, we also focus on, let's say, adding some notes of delightful user experience as well. Andrew Maeer you Arsalan It is of course difficult to quantify or to make a business case for when you're developing a product, but I think it really pays off in the perception of quality, especially when you're working in a competitive space as sizing and e-commerce.

Andrew Maeer Yeah, absolutely. And I think everybody listening would have experienced the problem that you're trying to solve at some point where you buy a pair of jeans from Levi's and then you go and try and buy a pair of jeans that might be, I don't know, replay or whatever and they're all sized differently. T-shirts are sized differently, shirts, et cetera. And whether it's male or female, different brands view a medium might be a large in a different brand, it might be a small in a different brand, so it becomes a real problem.

And I think that leads into why you're building this solution and the problems that shoppers face and obviously the wider impact that has. So do you just want to give us an overview of that as well? Arsalan Thank you. Thank you.

Yes, absolutely. So the problems that we're trying to solve at Sizekick we can think of it from three perspectives. One is of course the shopper, then there is the shop, and then one could argue is the most important, the environment. So the shopper size frustration, we already know, right?

There's different brands. There's sometimes inconsistent in terms of sizing, maybe within a same brand. And of course having to order multiple sizes, trying them at home and then sending them back. It's always a pain to, let's say, stand in the line.

at a post office. So this problem actually occurs because of, let's say, manufacturing. So in fast fashion, often manufacturers don't use patrons. Patrons are these templates which are used to, let's say, design and cut and stitch together clothing.

So they're basically what set these sizing standards. So often in fast fashion, just take older lines of products and then just base them off of Andrew Maeer okay. Arsalan based the new lines off of these older products. And because of that, there's a lot of human error that's introduced.

yeah, and with that, you can imagine there's not only inconsistency within brands, but of course, when we talk about different manufacturers, it becomes a whole other game. So when we talk about this from the shop's perspective, you can imagine that when users face this size frustration, they have to return these clothing items. Andrew Maeer Okay. Arsalan they actually get these free returns.

the cost of these returns is a burden for the shops. So you can imagine that it eats into their profitability. And just to talk about the scale of this issue, I think about 50 % of items that are ordered, they're actually returned. And this is an interesting number that comes from Zalando.

yeah, it gets insane. And what's interesting, Andrew Maeer Wow, this is, it's just such a crazy number, isn't it? It's mad. Arsalan This is something that we know from DHL, like a report from DHL is that each, let's say package or parcel that's returned, it, let's say contributes like 500 grams of carbon dioxide and emissions.

And to put that into some perspective on, let's say climate goals to be achieved, like in general, not necessarily, Sizekick. I believe, I think seven or nine billion was the term, seven or nine billion tons of CO2 needs to be sustainably removed per year until the mid of the century to meet that 1.5 degrees Celsius goal in the, I believe it was the Paris Agreement. So keeping that in mind, this problem of sizing and then returns, it's an issue for shoppers, the shop itself, and of course the environment.

Andrew Maeer Yeah. Arsalan And what's interesting about the costs for the shop is that each return has an estimated average cost of 20 euros. So every order that's returned, that's 20 euros that's coming out of the pockets of the shop in terms of profitability. So it becomes a bit of an issue that a lot of people are trying to solve.

I think the issue with current competitors are that they are working on more generic sizing advice that is not really Andrew Maeer Yeah. Arsalan based on body measurements and is sometimes working on the faulty sizing tables that I mentioned that people don't really use to manufacture. And oftentimes there's no real, let's say, fit feedback that's employed in, let's say, improving the quality of sizing and size recommendations. Andrew Maeer Yeah, and I guess this whole business of free returns, some of the kind fashion e-commerce businesses started using it as a competitive advantage against other people in the industry, but that's now just become industry standard.

So then for them to drop it would be very difficult because that would then have an even bigger impact. But then that comes full circle from a sustainability perspective. It's difficult to get them to change behaviour, I would imagine. Arsalan Yeah, absolutely.

So this is when we talk about this free return policy, I believe one of the establishments to do it was Zalando. They had this really interesting ad, I believe maybe even a decade ago, where the German tagline was a very catchy tagline. was Schrei vor Glück oder Schicken zurück. Yeah.

So it means scream in happiness or send it back. So they're really... nailing down this that yes, you can order if it works out for you, that's great. If not, no issues.

We take care of the returns. And as you mentioned, the industry followed this trend. And of course, it has a substantial improvement in conversion and I believe it builds trust as well. Then you know that they're going to take care of your product return if you're not satisfied with it.

So now it has become almost a learned consumer behavior. Andrew Maeer Yeah. Arsalan that people expect these free returns. Also, if you look at platforms like Amazon, so not only fashion e-commerce, but e-commerce in general.

And I think at SizeKick, we don't believe that people should be paying for the returns, which is like some shops are considering that maybe we should ask the people to pay for returns to discourage them. I think that this is a great convenience for online shopping and it builds trust as well. Putting a cost on that would definitely reduce the conversion. From Sizekick's point of view, I think the solution to this is to prevent these returns that are based on sizing.

if we keep the convenience for these Andrew Maeer Yeah, was going to say, if people are paying, the returns are still happening, aren't they? Arsalan Exactly, it still affects the environment. So the smarter way is definitely to reduce these size related returns. Andrew Maeer Yeah, cool.

So we start having a dig now into the kind of way the tech and the product works. So how have you kind of built the product from a tech and product perspective? Just maybe give us a little bit of an overview. Arsalan So from the tech perspective, we have an in-house team of very talented machine learning engineers, and we work on these models.

I think the tech discussion is always, let's say, it's not necessarily the models, but rather what we achieve with those models that becomes an interesting discussion on the product end. So when we talk about our approach, what we do is that we ask users for basic information like height, age, and weight. And based on that, we're able to present them with two options with which they can find their body measurements. One is what we call the body finder and the other is the body scanner.

So the body finder is when we present users with a set of bodies that look very similar to them based on their BMI, and they can basically choose between them and try to triangulate their body shape. So this is much better than let's say the status quo of sizing solutions where they just ask you that, do you have a rounder belly or a flatter belly or a sunken in belly? And getting to the truth is much more difficult. Yeah.

And often people just take the average option and call it a day. So what we like to do is to provide this more realistic approach by showing realistic body shapes that we've developed with our partners, Hohenstein. And we have a set of a hundred thousand Andrew Maeer Yeah. Nobody's telling the truth.

Arsalan that we really narrow down and based on the user's BMI, we're able to present them with the few most likely options and they're able to choose and get to their most accurate or rather most similar body shape to get to accurate body measurements. Of course, there's still some, let's say, effort from the user to choose their body shape, but we also alleviate that with our second option that is the body scanner, where the user is given a guided journey to make a video of themselves.

So they put the phone down, they just rotate in front of the camera once. And with that, we're able to do a 3D scan to get all these body measurements in an accurate fashion. And of course, as you can imagine with the topic of video and privacy, we take data privacy very seriously. Our whole solution is GDPR compliant and we go, let's say the extra mile to make sure everything is anonymized.

Like the face is blurred. Like before we even get the video, the face is blurred. The background is removed. any kind of, let's say.

anything that can give away a person's information like I don't know posters in the background, political affiliations and so on, we make sure we get none of that and just what we need to get the body scans, sorry, the measurements. Andrew Maeer Cool, so then when it comes to building a product like this, it sounds simple. We just get the phone and we scan a body, but there must have been some really big challenges that you faced to build the product and I guess they will be moving forward.

So what are the biggest ones that you've overcome so far? Arsalan Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So when we talk about challenges, with SizeKick, we really want to establish a sustainable, profitable business, right?

So in that sense, we really keep everything lean. And that lean philosophy goes into our team structures, our meetings, and our processes, and so on. So when it comes to building the product, we really like to establish some form of efficiency in the product research, design, and delivery. So even talking about product research, It's really important that we, let's say, use research effectively, that we, because doing research is expensive, getting the right people and using the right methods to get the correct insights.

It's all something that takes time. And oftentimes I've seen, like in companies that I've worked before, that there is kind of this framework of a product playbook where people can go through like certain steps to establish a business case and then do wireframes and then do a user. user research or user study. So oftentimes user research becomes just this step to, let's say, tick off in a framework and that becomes a bit of an issue.

Oftentimes people just want to like introduce a small button or a small user interface layout and they have to check off the user research tick box. So they just show two different, slightly different variations of the same UI to the users and say that, okay, we have done user research because users say they want this one. Andrew Maeer Yeah. Yeah.

Arsalan So things like that, are, again, it's almost as if these frameworks are used as a crutch to build a product. So oftentimes, we will skip research like this and make sure that when we are doing research, it's for the right things. And to really speed up the product delivery so that the insights that we get from the, let's say, usage of the product is by actual people rather than, let's say, like a user segment or a group that we let's say recruit off of user testing platforms.

And of course that lean and efficient philosophy goes into design systems as well. I don't think I need to emphasize the importance of design systems in delivery, but what I can talk about is let's say product delivery and the processes that we have there in terms of Agile and Scrum. Of course we believe in agility and being able to let's say, move the trajectory to different directions based on user feedback. What we don't believe in is just, let's say again, copy pasting frameworks, like really standard scrum and Agile that has all of these, let's say rituals that really kill productivity.

So any meeting that you can say that, Hey, I have a doctor's appointment. I can't join this one. I have to dip out of this one. That meeting shouldn't exist.

So if there's a meeting that you're a part of, we reschedule it. If you can't make it. Andrew Maeer Yeah. Arsalan But there's no, let's say, daily standups or things that you can dip out of.

We have maybe, let's say, one sink, one sink in the whole week, 15 minutes. Yeah. And then everything else, you know, we just align quickly on what we need to do, on what the priorities of the companies are. And then, of course, everyone takes care of their responsibilities.

There is a caveat, of course, that you have to work with really talented and responsible people and that you can't... Yeah. Andrew Maeer okay, that's interesting. was just going to say, yeah, a lot of that falls back on making sure that you have the right people in the team, that attitudes are aligned.

But I guess that also comes with running a lean team as well, because you can't run a lean team without people with those attitudes, because if they don't, then they become blockers, right? Arsalan Exactly. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Yeah. There's a lot of companies that have trust and responsibility in their, let's say values. But I think most of these processes really kind of kill the trust and responsibility and people can't really take on responsibility and grow. And I think once you give people this responsibility, you give them this trust, you can often see the unique flavor they bring into, let's say product development and the delivery life cycle.

And as you can imagine, with all of this lean and efficient methodologies, we really like to make sure that our custom, let's say, our integrations and our customer integrations are also fast by design, rather than taking, let's say, months. It is something that we can push out in weeks or even a week. Andrew Maeer Yeah, cool. So if we think about what's in the future for Sizekick so what are the things that you're looking at moving forward?

Arsalan So in the near term, it's of course constantly improving the sizing app and the recommendation engine. I think this is one part that I missed about like the technical aspect of size cake is that we're constantly improving with, let's say really close to ground truth feedback for our size recommendation. So actual users trying on real products and then giving us feedback and that feeds into the engine to make these dynamic sizing. Andrew Maeer Okay.

Arsalan We're really improving the sizing app and making more touch points to get this feedback in. And of course, we are expanding into other avenues of, or rather other applications for clothing like workwear. Workwear is an interesting topic, workwear or personal protective equipment. It's an interesting topic because it's an industry that really needs to be digitized and is looking for a digital solution.

Andrew Maeer Thank you. Arsalan So just an example of the problem that they face is, let's say you have a factory of workers and they need to be fitted in with like protective jackets and pants. So they send out a salesperson, yeah, has to drive three, four hours to get to the factory. Of course, before that they have to like organize with a supervisor and to get the workers in.

And then they take, course, a van to like have all of these products in different sizes. They have to set up a nice try on boots and people come in, you know, leave their work to come in and. Andrew Maeer Yeah. Arsalan try on different sizes.

And then even today, even I'm sure Excel was made like 30 years ago, but people still use like notepads and help. Yeah, but I think even Excel would have been fine. But like I said, they get onto their notepads and pens and they write down that employee number so and so is going to wear size L jacket size And this process goes on for all the workers. And then of course there's the issue that what if Andrew Maeer Yeah, people love XL, yeah.

Alright. Arsalan someone was absent, right? Someone didn't come to work because of vacation or they were sick. Then they have to do the whole process again.

This takes a very long time and a very long time for the salespeople who should be working on sales stuff rather than being this little go to the place and try on like a fitting facility, so to speak. So what we have developed right now, and we're working with some partners there, is that we use our Sizekick solution. so that the salesperson doesn't have to go anywhere. We have all the product information.

They just send out a link to the sizing app and the supervisor just has to send this forward to all the workers. They scan themselves. All the information is taken into the dashboard or the cloud. And yeah, they can just make that order.

It's very simple now. So that's one of the things that we're working on in the near future. Also using platforms like Shopify to make the integration even faster, something that we take... let's say a week or within a week to maybe even a day or a couple of hours.

And yeah, those are some of the near term projects. But when we talk about what's in the future, what's in the long term future of Sizekick, I would say it is to use the sizing expertise in product and tech to really achieve this vision of making apparel manufactured, distributed, purchased and shopped for in a really responsible and sustainable manner. So if we become the most loved sizing experience on the market, we become an industry standard for sizing and clothing. And we are able to enable the industry to, let's say, offer more bespoke products or bespoke clothing, and to even be a consultant of sizing for apparel manufacturing.

I think that would be a vision that really, that would be, let's say, aspects that really help us achieve this vision. Andrew Maeer Yeah. Arsalan So that's what I see for size in the future. Andrew Maeer Yeah, and it's definitely an industry as we've discussed that needs to make some changes.

And I think, you know, aligned with that digitization process, it feels like the cost for a business to use a product like SizeKick needs to offset what they are spending in other areas around returns, et cetera. And is that kind of where the business is kind of positioning to try and solve some of these challenges? Arsalan Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

That's exactly right, I think I couldn't have said it better myself. Andrew Maeer Yeah, cool. So as we wrap up the conversation, we always like to give our listeners some takeaways. So what do you think are the key things that you would give our listeners today, Arsalan?

Arsalan So we talked a lot about like e-commerce and sizing, but since this is a very lovely product and SaaS focused podcast, will focus on some of those elements rather than e-commerce. I think the key takeaways just from my experience with SizeKick and previous experiences would be to really be critical of introducing product frameworks into the company or into the product team. It's always important to I-trade and improve and adapt the processes with the team to see what works best in achieving the most efficient way of delivering products and delivering value.

And to not really be stuck in, let's say, predefined rituals that come with these frameworks. All of these things, all of this, let's say, Andrew Maeer Yeah. Arsalan It becomes bureaucratic blow to a certain degree, even though it's supposed to be agile. So it's really important that people are critical of what gives us value in these frameworks and what doesn't and adapt.

And I think the second takeaway that I would give is to, it's more of a design, it's coming from a product design aspect that to, we should not overlook the aspects of the product that make it go beyond just being useful and really think about how can we make a product or an experience delightful. There's an interesting talk on the platform for interaction design foundation, where they talk about the MVP being the minimum viable product and the MUP being the minimum usable product.

So not something that works, but something that works well and is user friendly. And then there is the minimum desirable product or the MDP. not something that is not only useful, something that gets the job done in an efficient way, but it's something that inspires. Andrew Maeer Useful.

Yes. Arsalan let's say other product design as well. And it really gives the user a delightful experience that they want to come back to. So these things, as I mentioned before, they're sometimes difficult to put into a business case and to say, okay, introducing certain animations or an improvement in layout is going to give us this revenue.

But it's really important to look at these qualitative aspects and to keep an eye on them as well with qualitative feedback as well, because it really improves the quality of the product, in my opinion. Andrew Maeer Yes. Yeah, I think they're super valuable. I remember a long time ago, somebody said to me about kind of frameworks and whether it's agile or anything around that you make agile or the framework fit into the business.

You don't make the business fit into the framework because it is a framework and not every business is one size fits all. So it's not going to work for everybody. You've got to take the parts that make you better. Arsalan Thank Exactly.

Andrew Maeer Because actually if you try and put too much of a framework in it goes the other way and it slows you down And it makes things worse, which is obviously of course not what they're there for Yeah, cool well, thank you very much for your time today It's been really great to find out more about Sizekick. It feels like a Product that absolutely is needed and will be successful. So thank you very much for your time Really appreciate it. We'll speak to you again soon Arsalan Absolutely.

Yeah, thanks for having me.