Practical Product Management · 2025-08-13 · 1h 0m
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
35 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Charity, a veteran product leader who's held roles across fintech, e-commerce, and executive teams, joins hosts Leah and Marilyn to discuss burnout, relentless ambition, and the often-painful process of learning to rest. The conversation centers on how high-achievers - particularly successful women - struggle to recognize exhaustion and justify downtime without framing it as failure. Charity shares her own story of taking a settlement and then immediately interview for a new role, followed by a grueling two-week horse trek through the Andes while already depleted, only to realize a year later how exhausted she actually was. Leah reveals her own crisis point at Expedia, where depression forced her out, and later a forced sabbatical that taught her what genuine recovery feels like. The episode examines the internal narratives that keep high-performers running on fumes - rationalizing tiredness as vitamin deficiency or lack of caffeine - and whether awareness of burnout warning signs is enough to change behavior. Ideal for product leaders, executives, and managers wrestling with their own drive and burnout cycles.
While on a plane to Ghana for a friend's wedding, Charity's fingers went numb one by one while holding champagne - a phenomenon she later realized was stress-related, marking a critical moment when she recognized she was running on fumes despite being only four weeks into her new role.
After a weekend trip to wine country where something unwound inside her, Leah quit by leaving her laptop and resignation letter on her boss's desk on a Sunday. She then took an individual contributor role (rather than leadership) and relied on colleagues like Marilyn to physically pull her away from her desk when she was too vacant to move on her own.
Successful women often don't recognize tiredness as a real signal because they've internalized narratives like 'you'll be fine, just have coffee' or rationalize exhaustion as vitamin deficiency rather than burnout, viewing rest not as self-care but as a lack of ambition.
The same day she signed her settlement agreement, Charity interviewed for her next role and got it, then reluctantly took three months off before starting - which she still felt apologetic about - before going horse riding through the Andes for two weeks while already exhausted.
While Leah forced herself to take six months of relative nothing and had to be physically extracted from her desk by colleagues, Marilyn took a six-month break doing whatever she wanted - not traditional rest, but autonomy-based restoration - and was starting a new job on the Monday of the episode's recording.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode is almost entirely personal anecdotes about burnout and rest with very few transferable operator insights; the closest to useful ideas are 'understand the game' and the note that A/B/C player status is context-dependent, but these are buried in casual chat.
you rarely celebrate your successes because you don't really see them as successes
just because you are you... are an A player, you can be maybe a Z player in some places and an A player in some places
Mostly recycled burnout/work-life-balance takes, though the guest's slight contrarian pushback ('after a while, it does sound a little bit whingy') and the reframing of ambition toward mastery over promotion offer modest freshness.
after a while, it does sound a little bit whingy
it's just about understanding the game better
The guest is a genuine product leader (VP of product, executive MBA, board meetings, ASOS/Citi background) and hosts are experienced product executives, but the conversation never draws on their operating expertise at scale.
My first product leadership job, really. And then the second year of my mba, I started sitting on... the executive leadership team
I've done the work of a product manager business analyst for the majority of my career before going into leading teams
There are named companies and a few concrete numbers (24 flights, 3 years at Citi, 50,000-word thesis), but these are biographical color rather than operating data an operator could learn from; no metrics on products, revenue, or outcomes.
I think I took like 24 flights that year, flying for board meetings in New York and la
I wrote my thesis, my mba... 50,000 words
Warm and occasionally probing ('What was different about that Sunday then?'), but the conversation is dominated by tangents, mutual affirmation, and long personal monologues with little challenge or productive disagreement.
What was different about that Sunday then?
because I do this thing where I distract everybody during the podcast
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this candid conversation, hosts Leah and Marilyn talk with product leader Charity about ambition, burnout, and the elusive art of slowing down. From unexpected career starts to the relentless pursuit of the next goal, they explore how high-achievers push themselves (sometimes too far) and what it takes to recognize when it’s time to rest. The episode offers a mix of personal stories, leadership insights, and practical reflections on sustaining both success and well-being. 3 Key Takeaways Ambition can be double-edged. The same drive that fuels achievement can also lead to exhaustion if left unchecked. Rest rarely happens by accident. True downtime often requires intentional boundaries and self-awareness - and sometimes the courage to walk away. Leaders set the tone. Your energy impacts your team; burnout in leadership can ripple outward in ways you might not realize until later.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to Back to Practical Product Management, our podcast where we talk about how product management is done in the context of your business, not by a book. So, um, we love this topic and we love having these conversations. Um, and so today we have this exciting new guest we haven't talked to before. Charity. Welcome to our podcast. We would love for you to tell us a little bit about yourself and then we're going to dive in and talk a lot about yourself. So tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker B: Hi. Thank you for having me. This is, this is a first m about myself. So I'm Charity, obviously. Um, I could give the whole CV thing, but I'm not going to. I live in London. I've lived in London for about 17 years. Though I refuse to call myself a Londoner because I'm from up north, near Durham. Um, it's so hard not to talk about my career when I'm introducing myself. I like nail polishes. I'm doing my hair and I just discovered gems. They're not working anymore. I'm like, I can look like whatever I want to look like. Um, so, yeah, and I adore my nieces and my nephew and yeah, this is. That's me as a person without going into work. I, um, am anti galore. That's me.
Speaker C: I just. So, because I do this thing where I distract everybody during the podcast, I'm going to do it now, which is very early in our traditional cycle. Um, I just came off of two weeks with my niece and my nephew. I flew out to Illinois and I took two of my. My sister's four children for like 16 days. And my friend, I am exhausted. I have no idea how they are not exhausted all the time.
Speaker A: Yeah,
Speaker B: two of them are born at the same time. Ish. I've got two seven year old ones, two five year old ones. My nephew's like a year and a half. So all four of the girls together is definitely gray hair inducing.
Speaker C: Yeah, I took them home yesterday and I was like, I love you, but goodbye.
Speaker A: But go home. Right. Like I have completely ruined you and sent you home.
Speaker C: Exactly, exactly. Right, exactly.
Speaker B: Uh, I'm not working. I'm out with one of them with ice cream or just nice in my house decorating things.
Speaker A: I have ten nieces and nephews. Ten? Yeah. Five girls. Five. No, six boys, four girls.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: Nope, that's still not right. Seven boys, three girls. I'll get it right eventually. And then I actually have six great nieces and nephews.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: So, I mean, we have this and. And I was Born to be an auntie. Yes, right. Like I was. I was, I was designed for this. Right.
Speaker C: Ah, no, bedtime. Have some candy. I'll take you home later.
Speaker A: Right, exactly. I used to deposit my nephews at my sister's house on a Sunday morning and be like, sorry, and just drop them off and leave.
Speaker B: You had fun, didn't you? And I had one too. Bye.
Speaker A: I hope they behave during church. And I would disappear. So, yeah, I've been there.
Speaker C: I love it. Well, that was my best distraction. Um, so, Charity, let's get back to the real questions. Actually, those were real questions. Um, so probably, probably like the rest of us, product management was not what you set out to be in life. Um, why don't you tell us a little bit about your career projection, how you got here, um, and how you ended up being such a dynamic product leader.
Speaker B: Oh, I like dynamic. I was shaking my head so much, like, product management's awful. It's not. I am looking for work, I promise. I love my job. I do. Um, so way back when I went to lse, London School of Economics, accidentally had no clue what that was. My dad was like, you're going? So I went, um, did management. And I always tell people this story and it's not funny anymore, but it was then, you know, like KPMG. Like we all know what KPMG is. Well, 19 year old me, you know, KP Peanuts. I thought it was KP Peanuts Management Group. So during Freshers week, I had no clue about this world of Goldman Sachs and all these things. I'm looking out my window, Canary Wharf. I had no clue. So when I finished uni, I actually went to do a graduate program at City because I then knew what Citi was like. It's a company that makes money for high net worth individuals. Um, so yeah, that's kind of going from thinking like, what's lse? I thought it was the stock exchange. Oh, it's a university. What's kpmg? Oh, it's a management consultancy. Joined City, my boss left within three months. I got her job, was taken off the graduate program. Worked there for three years, uh, dotted around different companies doing fin. Well, it's called Fintech now. Then it was just financial technology.
Speaker A: Exactly.
Speaker B: It wasn't. Um, and yeah, and then moved to asos. And that ASOS was my first, like real product role. I had product roles before in like Fintech, but not, you're looking at this part of the app. Uh, and that was Digital Asset Management. So the old days of asos, which I think they're bringing back the models of Walk Down a Catwalk. Um, so I was looking after everything from like sketch to live products and the copywriting, the color swatches, all that kind of stuff. And yeah, and then kind of stuck around in E commerce. Did a brief stint in the music industry, which I to go into. And then, yeah, still E commerce. So, yeah, it was accidental. I was trained technically as a business analyst, like during ASOS times, but that's when that ba role was kind of murky and I was definitely more of a product person. Um, and yeah, so that's kind of how I've continued. So as a product leader. It's interesting because I've done the work of a product manager business analyst for the majority of my career before going into leading teams. So accidental. I, as I said I was. LSE was not my plan. I was going to go to St. Martin's School of Art and Design and study interior architecture till I realized needed physics. And I'm not, I'm not. I'm not that blessed in that way. Much the dismay of my dad, who's a professor of all the sciences. Um, so, yeah, management and economics. It was after I got a D, by the way, in my A level anyway.
Speaker A: But you survived it. Yeah, it's fine.
Speaker B: I went to lse. It's fine.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Isn't that so? I think it's, um. I would. I know because I know Marilyn well that we also neither one were like, I'm gonna be a product manager. I always say, there is no child who's sitting at home and when someone says, we're you going to be when you grow up there, like product manager, like, it's not. Nobody says, no kid says that.
Speaker C: Right?
Speaker A: And so I think we've all wanted to be something else. M. I know what Marilyn wanted to be, but I'm gna let her or what she was doing forget what she wanted to be.
Speaker B: I.
Speaker A: What she was doing.
Speaker C: I was a bum. I was a bum. I like followed the snow and I, I lived out of a backpack and I, I fixed people's skis and I, I was, I was on the snowboard 300 days a year.
Speaker B: Oh my goodness.
Speaker C: Until it got too cold. Like there was one. I remember, like there was one summer that I was just like, forget it. I have been cold for three years now. I'm so tired of the snow. And I just bought a one way ticket to London. Um, and I hitchhiked through Europe for about three or four months until I ran out of money. And then I went back to Tahoe and bummed around until I could work again. I was bum.
Speaker B: Um. That's what I was. I was a bum.
Speaker C: It was amazing.
Speaker A: I love that. That's so funny, because it's like. Because Marilyn's not real good at being a bum now.
Speaker B: So
Speaker A: you got it all out of your system at the beginning.
Speaker C: I must have, because I have this really hard problem doing nothing. And, like, not like. So I, like. I have this problem in my head where I'm like, well, I need to do better. I need to do more.
Speaker A: I need to work harder.
Speaker C: I need the next thing. Like. And I know I'm doing it. And I'll sit here, and I'll be like, you don't need anything.
Speaker B: Yeah, you're good.
Speaker C: Like, you can go sit on the grass for the next month and be fine. And something inside me won't allow me to just sit on the grass for the next month.
Speaker B: The concept is nice, but the reality is, like, an hour in, you're like, okay, so what can I do? How can I make this exactly right?
Speaker C: Like, I'm, um, planning the garden, and I'm marking things out with chalk, and my husband comes out, and he's like, what the hell?
Speaker A: Like, what are you doing? He's like, why? Why are you doing that?
Speaker C: There's a greenhouse over here. Imagine this. There's a greenhouse over here, and there's a conservatory over there. And then there's cement, like, a garden over here with walls.
Speaker A: And Patrick's. In his mind, he's like, oh, it's gonna be so much work I have to do.
Speaker C: Exactly. Exactly. Right? But if he doesn't help me, 20 minutes later, I'm gonna walk past with like. Like, the chainsaw or something over your shoulder.
Speaker B: Off to work I go.
Speaker A: Like, on TikTok, there's those memes where it's like, um, you know, your wife is annoyed at you at Home Depot when. And it's like, the. The guy. The woman's pushing the thing, and she's, like, picking up all the. He. Putting it on. The guy's like, I'll get it. And she's like, no, I'm fine. And she's, like, doing it all herself.
Speaker C: I'm not even annoyed. That's my normal state.
Speaker A: That was like, don't touch it.
Speaker C: Exactly, right? I'm like, I'm totally. I'm capable. Like, why can't I pick up this kind of thing?
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. I think, you know, I think. Listen. What is very clear to me after no you know, obviously, I've known Mary a long time in charity, you and I have spoken. Like there is a, uh, there is some part of us that is ambitious. And then even beyond ambition, there is like this drive to not be still.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: Right. And I wonder how that has shown up for you.
Speaker B: Awfully.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: In fantastic ways. Right. But also, awfully isn't even a word. But let's just imagine that it is.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Um, no, I'm half joking. In great ways. I remember my old. My manager, uh, just. And if she listens to this, you'll know I'm referencing. Huh, Her. She said something like, oh, charity's, um, competition isn't everyone else. It's charity. And not in a positive way. Right. In a relentlessly, annoyingly always wanting to be better. And I think there's two things that come out of that. One is that you rarely celebrate your successes because you don't really see them as successes. You see that as like the ultimate success is this, this unknown goal. So every little bit of success isn't a success. It's just another step towards that goal. And then you don't realize how exhausted you are. So looking back now, I started my executive MBA in 2020. Let's say it was 2021, because that's a blur. Looking back now, I shouldn't have started an MBA at the same time as starting a new job.
Speaker A: Right?
Speaker B: My first product leadership job, really. And then the second year of my mba, I started sitting on, um, the executive leadership team. It's funny now, but it wasn't then. So it's. The relentless pursuit is great because it meant that I was, you know, I think I took like 24 flights that year, flying for board meetings in New York and la, and then doing my executive mba travel South Africa. And I'd wake up not knowing what country I'm in, which sounds so glamorous to my friends, but in reality was like, oh my goodness, you are slowly killing yourself. And not even in an exaggerated way. Right?
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So your body's like, hello.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's crazy. I. I finished, I got. Well, I ended my work at my last company last February. And then the day I signed my settlement agreement, I had an interview for my next role, which I actually ended up getting, reluctantly took three months off, which I thought was like taking three years off. I was like, I am so sorry. Can I join in three months? Like, fine.
Speaker A: And they're like, yeah, okay. I was like, are you sure?
Speaker B: Like, can you handle things without me? Like, you don't work here yet, of course. And then I went. No, not like, not even a small part of me thought it's time to relax. I went horse riding through the Andes for two weeks.
Speaker A: What?
Speaker B: When I was already tired, like it was great, but at the same time my hip was hurting. I was riding eight hours a day up and down volcanoes. I was exhausted and only now am I feeling like a year later, oh, I'm tired. So yeah, it's great to be driven. Uh, it's not going to go away from me, but I think this period of time also made me realize you can be driven as well as be healthy.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: That's one of the things I appreciate about you, Leah, is that you are also one of the most driven people I have ever met in my life. And somehow you have found this like inner Zen, Leah, that can pause and recognize. Let's like listen to your body and listen to yourself and, and there's a magic there. Um, how did you slow down?
Speaker A: I mean, I ran into a brick wall and crashed.
Speaker B: Oh.
Speaker A: So I mean I, I, it was, it was forced. Right. And so part of the reason it matters so much to me to have this kind of conversation is that I, I, while I know that I can't stop some people from doing that, I'd like to try.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: Right. I'd like to try and be like, stop, don't do that. Because I mean, so I, I mean, uh, like I often look back at my career and think somewhere right in the middle of my career I was laid off. I was let go of a company and I didn't find a job right away. I was, I was nervous, I had money, I paid my bills. Like I, but I was so afraid I was going to be bankrupt and I'm going to lose my job. And I was so stressed and I did not relax. And I look back at that and think, man, that was, that would have been a lot of fun if I could have just enjoyed it. Right, Right. And this was like, I don't know, 17 years ago, something like that. And then, so, so if I, so I picked up, I had a chick out a job and then it's, the ball just started rolling and I ran from job to job to job. And Marilyn knows this, but I was very, I had a really bad bout of depression um, when I was working at Expedia and I, and it really took it out of me. And that was my first lesson. Like I would get up every day and I can say this with my full chest. I would get up Every day and get in my Jeep and drive to Bellevue, crying. And I would sit in the parking garage and either convince myself to go in, or Marilyn would get there and walk me in.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: And that is the only. And I would sit at my desk, and I would make it through the day, and I would do my job. I get in my car, we go to the gym. I'd get in my car, I'd cry all the way home. I was done.
Speaker C: Done.
Speaker B: Um. Yeah.
Speaker A: I was absolutely on fire.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right. Like. And I. But I didn't know what to do. And then one day, I quit. I walked in on a Sunday. I left my laptop and all my. On my boss's desk with the resignation letter and left. And I did not ever return.
Speaker B: What was different about that Sunday then?
Speaker A: I had gone. So essentially, Jen Bloom, who's been one of our guests, she and I had gone to wine country in Eastern Washington.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: And something about that weekend, uh, some part of me unwound, and I thought, I cannot live like this. I'm gonna die. Yeah. Like, something's gonna happen. And she and I were driving back to Seattle, and I said, I've got to quit my job. And she was like, yes. And I was like, okay, I'm. I'm gonna. And I. I drove her to her car, drove to my house, got my shit, went back across the water, left my, uh. Took my stuff in, left it on my boss's desk, and never looked back. And I. Then I took another job fairly quickly, but I spent that next job. I took a step back. I didn't take a leadership position. I took kind of an IC position. And it was a principle, you know? But in my brain, it was like, it's not. I'm not. I'm not leading people. I'm not doing that. And it took me some months to just get my head straight, like, I was surviving. Marilyn would sometimes come by my desk and say, we need to go for a walk, because you haven't moved in two hours.
Speaker B: Oh, my goodness.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: I would be staring out the window, and not. I wouldn't even be working. I would be staring out the window, and she'd be like, you. We need to go. We need to go to something to eat. Let's go for a walk. And I would just, like. And she knows I would just get up and follow her. If she said. If she. Or Gino, either one said, we got to go. We got to go do something, I'd be like, okay. And I would just follow them. I was like. I was I was. It was vacant. There was a lot of vacancy.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Uh, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, Marilyn, but there was a lot going on there.
Speaker C: I think the part you're missing, and maybe another part to talk about is, um, I feel really strongly that. That there's. There's room at the top for lots of women. But we had been working in an environment with two, uh, very toxic women, um, who were just bent on making Leah's life miserable. They were not very kind to me either, but they were particularly awful to Leah. And it was almost like a personal vendetta. And I don't think I've never seen anything like it before or since. Um, but just two extremely toxic individuals and. Yeah, so it wasn't like you just burnt out and checked out. You were attacked and maligned. But that. I mean, that was. The end result was the same. Like, they. They broke everything. Um, and it was pretty.
Speaker A: It was pretty.
Speaker C: It was pretty bad.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, to end that. And I know it's a long answer to your question, Charity, but, like, I had that happen. And then I went back to, you know, I got back into the swing of it. I moved to Europe. I did all these things. I took a job. I left Klarna, and I went to, uh, startup. I started a master's degree at the same time as a new startup. And the pandemic hit, and it was a travel, and I spent the next two and a half years keeping a company. Like, trying to keep a company alive. Yeah, Right. And again, I hit this crunchy wall. That time, though, uh, as it. As it was approaching, I was like, I'm done. I'm not. I'm not gonna. I'm not hitting this wall this hard. And I just walked. I just walked away. I said, I'm done. Take your baby, have your company. I'm not doing this.
Speaker B: Not worth it.
Speaker A: Yeah. And I walked away and I took six months and did nothing. I mean, when I say I did nothing, I did. There was nothing on my counter. I interviewed here and there. Uh, I got a job, and then I planned where I was gonna move. And I did some things, but. But it was a whole hell of a lot of nothing.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's needed.
Speaker A: And some part of me was like, oh, this is what it feels like to be in tune with what your body needs.
Speaker B: Literally, I've not worked since January, and I'm only what we're in July. And I was like, oh, this. I'm. I'm having time off from work. Not like I haven't had for five months, but it's only in July that I'm like, oh, this is nice. Um, and I was saying to Marilyn before, it's like the awareness of my tiredness is so delayed.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So delayed. That's why I. I went to my friend's wedding in Ghana in September, and I was sitting on the plane and I had a champagne in one hand, as you do, because I'm that kind of liar. And, um, I literally, like, finger by finger was going numb, like finger by finger. And like, champagne's a big deal for me. Right. So I can't drink it. That's a real problem. Um, so, yeah, that, that and I got to Ghana and, uh, long story short, it's possibly just all stress related, but like, random patches of me would just go numb. Um, and I think I was four weeks into my new job then and I was just. What's that phrase in football or soccer or whatever when you're. You've. You're kind of in the. You're below the zero. You just. Overtime or whatever. I don't know, like running on empty. Whatever phrase I'm trying to get you remind us numbers at that point. And it's past adrenaline now it's just running on fumes. Exactly. So I, I realized then, and that was, that was September. And I just thought to myself, oh, my goodness, there's no reason why I can't hold a champagne glass because that's just nothing physically wrong.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Oh, yeah. That was a big, like, warning vows.
Speaker A: M. And I mean, I think, uh, I'm curious what you, what you would able to say about this, but I think when we are exhausted as women who have been successful, I think we don't always know how to say, okay, it is not a lack of ambition to give myself a break.
Speaker C: No.
Speaker B: Yeah. I still feel like it is at all. I still feel like it is. Like this is a self imposed break, but a break nonetheless. But I've never stopped. Obviously when I was a child, I wasn't working. I mean, I've not stopped since I was legally allowed to work. I've not stopped. And I've just, you know, it's just always been that pursuit of something more. And this isn't like a female thing or a black woman thing. I think it's a charity thing. Just. And possibly my parents and my background. So the. Any recognition of tiredness is like, you'll be fine, get over it. Like, you'll be fine. Just have a quick nap, have a coffee. Get on with it. It's not. It's not a big deal. Carry on, carry on, carry on, carry on. And then you believe that narrative for so much. Any hint of tiredness is just like, oh, it's just. It's because I've not had enough vitamin B12. That's why I'm probably.
Speaker A: I'm probably hungry. I'm probably.
Speaker B: It's probably just vitamin D. Have a tablet. Carry on.
Speaker A: You'll be good on it. You'll be fine.
Speaker B: Right? Yeah. Just have some cheese. You'll be fine.
Speaker C: Cheese solves everything.
Speaker A: Cheese and champagne. Do both help. I won't say, oh, gosh.
Speaker B: So, yeah, uh, it's, uh. It's. I don't know. I wish I could come on this and be like. And I've now learned to recognize the signs of burnout. Uh, and I am gonna be this person that demands, you know, puts myself first in every situation. But I kid you not. I know when I get my next role, the only difference I think, will be that I've rested. Let, uh, me not say it won't be the same. I'll be starting having rested. But there's gonna have to be this constant wrestle between, are, uh, we about to. Are we about to break or are we not? And I think that the thing I have learned is perhaps being more aware of the warning signs. Whether I listen to them or not is the key thing. Right?
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, because Marilyn. I would say, like, Marilyn has no. She has no stop. And she's. I always. I used to always say, the only person I know who can outwork me is Marilyn. Right? Because when I'm like. I'm running out at 100 miles an hour, Maryland laps me, and I'm like, my hair. My hair goes, like, right? And I'm like, what the hell? Right? But Marilyn knows. I've looked her in the face and said, you gonna relax, right?
Speaker C: Yeah, it's really hard to relax. Yeah. Um. I don't know. I don't know. And I was. I am taking another job. I'm gonna start on Monday. Uh, I've had a wonderful six months doing stuff, which was not. Not resting, probably. Um, but for me, it was restful because I was doing whatever the hell I wanted. Right. I could get up and do whatever I wanted.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker C: Um, and I think that's the difference. So I think that my goal for myself is to make sure that I'm holding joy in my heart. Like, does this bring me joy? Does it make me happy? Am I getting up like, excited. Anybody that's ever worked with me knows that I, like, bring the sparkles and unicorns. Like, I'm. I'm the dork that's like, you know, like, bringing in the dragons as a surprise. And if that, If I lose that, I'm. I want to be intentional about when I start to lose the sparkles and rainbows because that means it's not working.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: And I. I know that, like, you know, if I'm. If I'm in a pool of glitter, then life is good. Uh, and if I'm. If I'm sitting at my desk struggling to get through something, then it's not. It's not working. So I'm going to try to be much more attuned to myself.
Speaker B: Yeah. I think especially in, like, I've had, you know, a leadership role in the past where I was definitely burnt out and didn't realize the effect it has on your team is like. And again. Oh, I think burnout or whatever you want to call it. There's like a very delayed reaction to a lot of things, like your impact on people, your tiredness, so on and so forth. But I had a very delayed reaction to how, like, my energy as a leader was kind of throwing my team into a bit of. We don't know. We don't know how to approach charity or if she's. If this is, you know what I mean? I didn't again, until later realize the impacts of, like, just my general mood.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And like, my. Obviously you're tired, so you've got a shorter fuse and you're irritated and you. Easier to make mistakes and things just aren't clock at the same time as trying to learn, like, financial instruments and whatever in my mba. And it's just a lot, a lot, you know, So I think that's the thing. I'm definitely the bring the sparkles person. And I think people can be very aware when I. When I stop moving my hands, you know, something's wrong. Yeah. If this all stops and I stopped doing jazz hands, then something's wrong. And that. That definitely stopped in some previous roles. So I think it's just. Even if. Even if I don't think about it for myself, I can do the altruistic thing and think about, but am I. Is this good for the people that I needed?
Speaker C: Yeah. Good for the people you serve. And is it good for your product and your company? Because I think sometimes the answer is just. But then, like, then I think that's where I'm gonna watch Leah's face when I say this, because she's told me so. Look, I'm learning, Leah. Um, I think that's where, like, that need to always be so ambitious. Like, I don't think ambitious is a negative thing. I, um, remember years ago, you had to pick a word to describe yourself. And I picked ambitious. And I felt guilty about picking that word, um, because it's like, am I supposed to be ambitious? But I, like. I think I've embraced it. I'm ambitious. I like to do stuff. I like to do big things. I like to have fun. Um, but where does that become toxic? Like, at what stage are you not doing yourself any favors? And the ambition starts to sort of, like, override what's really good for you.
Speaker A: Right? Yeah. And I think there's an element of it, like, I agree with you. Like, I like ambition, I think, can have such a negative connotation. I think it does have a negative connotation, particularly for women.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker A: I think it's like we're supposed to be nurturing and warm and all these things. And ambition is seen as drive.
Speaker C: Right. Yeah.
Speaker A: And I think. But I think what's. What. What I have come to sort of think about it is that I, um, am. I am ambitious.
Speaker B: That's.
Speaker A: That's part of who I am. But what is my ambition going in the direction of. And the moment it kind of goes off the rails. And my ambition is now solving for something that I also don't want. Right. I'm just a cog in the wheel and. But I'm just doing the thing that I know how to do, because I know how to do it, but I'm not enjoying it. I'm not learning anything. I'm not. Then your ambition is off the rails, and now you are. You are likely being used.
Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A: You have become someone that someone else is using some other. The organization is using your team, is using your bosses, whatever, because you're not even, like. It's not even ambitious in the direction of something you want.
Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A: It's just delivery.
Speaker B: It's just doing stuff. I'm not, um. This might be a bit controversial. I'm not the type to be, like, understanding what my purpose is. Crisis and, you know, running towards the calling I have in my life. So. But I think ambition can be. I want to do a lot of work. I want to do it well. I want to earn a certain amount. I want to reach this kind of accolade. I remember my first job at Citibank. My. What I thought ambition was, was emulating. The man in the corner office. I won't mention names. That was it. 21, 22, sorry. Year old me thought, oh, that, that is. When I'm like him, I'll be ambitious.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And it was definitely a case of like working longer hours because he works longer hours. So I was working on the weekend because he worked on. I thought that's what it was. That's your point. Right. It wasn't anything about me. It wasn't even chasing a salary, like promotion or anything like that. It was just like, let me just emulate the behaviors I see here.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And so I was like, actually, this doesn't. It doesn't. It's not filling me with anything. My pockets with anything. It's not filling my heart with anything. It's just making me more tired. And it's kind of. I can't put this into words, but it's kind of. I don't talk in a third person. But it's kind of. You become a little bit of like a shadow of yourself. Like, you know, if you put watercolors on something, you just get a little more and more washed out. But stage by stage, you can't tell. It's when you look about like, I was at city for three years. Uh, when you look back and you're like, wow, I was really faint by the ends of that. Right.
Speaker A: Who was. Who was that?
Speaker B: Over the period of three years? It wasn't like not becoming myself. It was just after the fact. And I really liked my time there. And it's nothing about people there. It's more about what I was chasing was to be. I'll just say it like a white man in the corner office. And I am the furthest thing. Corner office, I'll take, but I'm the furthest thing.
Speaker A: You're not a white man, right?
Speaker B: No. Do you know. And I won't mention the company here either. We were doing a leadership, um, course for the leadership team of this company. And I think I was the only. I hate this phrase, but I'm going to use it person of color. Like other people aren't colors. Anyway. Um, uh, I'm this color. Right, Right. Like, what color are you? I'm not a color. You are. And I'm not like, you're a person of color. I'm just a person. And, um, I think. I think she meant it to be a compliment, but she was like charity, you know, looking at your little score, the test that you do. But like, it was a bit more in depth with analysis. She was like, you really read like a white man.
Speaker C: Wow.
Speaker A: Thank you.
Speaker B: To this day, this is almost seven numbers that will give the company away. I can't tell whether that's a compliment or not, or even if you're trying to make it a compliment. What a weird thing. So, yeah, that's, I've kind of gone off a different tangent.
Speaker A: No, I think that that makes a lot of sense. I, like, I, I'm really curious because I think as you talked about that, what brought me back to something you said earlier. Well, maybe when we were talking before. Um, I think what's interesting about each of us is that we didn't start in these leadership roles. I know lots of men. I have sat at tables, executive tables and leadership tables with men who started in the middle.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: Ah, they've never done the job of the people on their team.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: And I think part of the reason why our ambition and our ability to take care of ourselves is maybe offset is because we only know how to strive for the next.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: I'm always hustling.
Speaker C: Mhm.
Speaker A: Right. I had to tell myself that hustle wasn't a good idea all the time, right. I'm like, oh, I don't have to hustle, right. I, I can just be good at something, right? And I don't have to always be like, let me prove myself, let me prove my, look at me, look at me. I can do the thing, right? But I, I think that there are so many instances of my career when I have said, I, I, I have been an executive at the table who then also was a PM running a team, right? Because there was no one to run the team. So I was writing user stories and writing strategy and going out to pitch, uh, for investment at the same damn time. Marilyn remembers, she was like, why are you doing that? I'm like, there's no one to do it. And I remember the men on that executive team saying, that feels like a bad use of your time. And I'm like, well, who else is going to do it? That team would have no product manager if I don't do it. And I remember saying, I mean, I'll, I'll, uh, out him. I said to the cfo, I said, you know what else? I could do the job on your team because I was an accountant. And I said, you couldn't even do that? And he was like, no.
Speaker B: How do they do that then? Do they just say no?
Speaker A: I think they, you know what I really think it is they were better connected.
Speaker C: Mhm.
Speaker A: They were better connected than Us. I think I can look at my career and go, yeah, I'm pretty well connected now.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But 15 years ago, I knew some people, but I wasn't super connected. I don't know, Marilyn, if you would agree with that or not, but that.
Speaker C: I didn't know anybody.
Speaker B: I didn't know anyone in my field. I knew artists. What's that? That's not going to help in investment banking.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: That's so true.
Speaker C: Yeah. I've. I've often talked about, uh. I think I was. I was talking to someone at a leadership conference, and they were like. They were trying to tell me how difficult their life was. And I'm like, try climbing the ladder. From, like, you're the first person in your, you know, in your family to earn over a certain amount. No one else does. And then it's not like you just get to ignore everybody and climb yourself. You gotta help.
Speaker A: Right?
Speaker C: So you're constantly helping other people, which means that your own targets get higher. Um, and it's like, you don't come from a background of wealth and prosperity. You come from a place where, like, you're. You're it. Like, you know, people are going to come to you to ask. There's no safety net. No one's helping me if all this goes south.
Speaker B: Like, right, right.
Speaker C: Me and my cat are gonna go live in the forest.
Speaker A: I'm gonna live at Marilyn's house. That's what I'm gonna do when it goes badly. That's always my plan. If this doesn't go well, I'm gonna move in with Marilyn and Patrick. Uh, I don't know what Marilyn's gonna do if it doesn't go well, because I have no.
Speaker C: We'll all be in the forest with our cats.
Speaker A: Yeah. No, but I. I do think that there is an element of, uh, what you just described. Like, I moved out at 17 and have never been supported. Supported. I've always supported me. So there is an element of like, well, I gotta work. I gotta work harder. I've got to show up. I've got to do the thing. I've got to get educated. I've got to say, yes, I've got. Then I'm like, okay, I think we're. I think we're good. I have proven that I can do the thing.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Calm down.
Speaker B: Uh, I wish I could tell us a sad story about, uh, being the provider of my family, but I'm not. I'm the youngest of four of three very, uh, successful siblings. I'm the youngest. So it wasn't it wasn't a case of me needing to do it because anyone was relying on me financially. It was easy to do it because that's just what we do.
Speaker A: What you do. Yeah.
Speaker B: You don't. We don't fail. And it's not like we're raised like, you don't fail. It's just inherent. Especially first generation immigrant. We work hard, my parents have worked hard, you know, so on and so forth. So it was just, you do well. That's it. You do well. Full stop.
Speaker A: Yeah, but what you just said, I think it, like, what it tells me is like, we all three have very different stories.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right. But there is a. There is a thread and I could probably go pull. And I think each of us probably. I can. I can think of five women, Five more women without trying. I could think of five more women who would say, yammy too.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: And their stories are totally different than ours. Right. So there is something to be said for the ecosystem says, work harder. And we're like, okay, yeah, we show up. Right.
Speaker B: Long sigh.
Speaker C: I know, I just had one.
Speaker B: I think we're gonna continue to. Because it's so funny, I listened to some of the, uh, like, uh, again, I'm not trying to name names like female podcasters talking about work, life, balance, all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, a little part of me and God forgive me, this is going to sound again, so controversial is like, after a while, it does sound a little bit whingy,
Speaker A: you know, because
Speaker B: it's still kind of talking from a place of privilege, you know, so it's kind of like. And this is why I think I said to, uh, Leah before, like, I wrote my thesis, my mba, on like, black female senior leaders. However those words are meant to go around. Senior black. Anyway, um, and, um, you know, I. 50,000 words. So I'm really invested in the topic. But I'm also. At the end of it, I was kind of like. And that's why the third of it is all about the. So what? Yeah, other than just like, here's all the stories of how women have been maligned and oppressed and mistreated and, oh my gosh, I'm a black woman and it's been so tough. Yes, you're. It's not. You're not the only one.
Speaker A: Sure.
Speaker B: Right. So it's. Then. Then what? Because that's the thing. I don't know that again, that's kind of controversial for me is that I think you can send a lot of your time reading Books about women.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Even Brene Brown and being vulnerable, which is kind of impossible for a lot of people in the community. But hey, it's Brenno Brown. Let's, you know, all hail. Um, but it's the so what. Yeah, so what is.
Speaker C: What is the so what?
Speaker B: My thesis here.
Speaker A: I can just bring it up.
Speaker C: I want to see the whole thing.
Speaker A: I. I've actually had.
Speaker C: I actually had so someone I consider a very good friend and mentor. Um, once said to me, not. Not so recent, not so long ago, like, just be a C player.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker C: And I was like, I don't think I can do that.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker C: He's like, uh, the guy that comes in like for a few hours a day to get his badge swiped in the office and kind of starts on time and ends on time and doesn't finish everything. Like that guy still gets paid. And I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I can. I don't know if I can physically do that.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But it is the age old adage. I can never say that. I just said it. Well, age old adage of work smart and not hard.
Speaker C: But that wasn't even work smart. Like be a C player.
Speaker B: Well, maybe not C player, but like a B plus.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker C: Maybe I could do B plus. I don't even know if I could
Speaker B: do B plus, like an A minus. But then I'd be like, oh my gosh. But there is a little bit. And like it's. It's just, it's just exhausting because if you look at the difference, like I said at the beginning, like my 22 year old self, I wasn't getting any warmer feelings here. It wasn't impacting my bank account. It wasn't really. Of course I look at my career and I'm so grateful because. Cause it actually did help in terms of projection into future roles. But in that moment, not really. And I think, I don't know, it's hard because I can't say, oh, just act like a man. Great book, by the way, that I'll plug called Think like a White Man. It's not about that. But I think the. So what is. It's not even about being a C player or an A player. It's just about understanding the game better.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Some companies see players
Speaker C: are.
Speaker B: Some other companies A players.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: So just because you are you, I, um, whatever are an A player, you can be maybe a Z player in some places and an A player in some places. You know what I mean? It's not the same. The game is different in different companies in different environments. So the adaptability, I think, is the. If I was to sum up the. So what.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Is. Are you adaptable?
Speaker C: I think I forced myself to be adaptable because I want to be an A player no matter what. Charity, I'm seriously broken.
Speaker B: I love how it still comes back to you people. That's it.
Speaker C: I'm not. But I'm like, super happy not being perfect. I just have to be better.
Speaker B: Perfect. Okay.
Speaker A: But I think, like, listen, I think I would say, like, I know you really well and I think you are. You work really hard, you want to be better. But I agree with what Charity said at the beginning. Like, the person you compete the most with is you.
Speaker C: Mhm.
Speaker A: Like, you're the. I mean. Yes. You're looking around and seeing what everyone else is doing. Yes, I'm doing that.
Speaker C: Yes.
Speaker A: Charity is probably doing that. But the person that's hardest on you is you. The person that you're competing with the most is you.
Speaker C: Yep.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker C: Because I want to lift everybody else up too. It's not even just me. It's like, we're all gonna win. We're gonna be fabulous.
Speaker B: Exactly.
Speaker C: If you promoted, I'm like, uh, it's exhausting. Yeah.
Speaker A: And I had a. When I. I left a job and I had an employee in our final, one on one. One of my team members, and it really stuck with me. He said, you're the first manager I've ever had that whose standards were ridiculously high. And we all knew it.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: But for whom? I knew the standard was higher for yourself than it was for us. Yeah. Yeah. And that, uh, in order for us to meet your standard, you would do everything, Anything to help us. Yes.
Speaker B: Yeah. Same.
Speaker A: If we said, I don't know if I can make your standard, you'd say, let me help you.
Speaker B: Right, exactly.
Speaker A: Because I. I can lift it.
Speaker B: Right. Exactly.
Speaker A: Uh, so. Marilyn, I know that's how you are.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Charity, I guarantee that's how you are. Right. Like, and so I think that is also the. So what? M. Because that is not. Sorry. White men, how they operate. Oh, no, not all of them. Not everybody. I'm generalizing. There are some that do. But in general, we are showing up in a different way and saying, I want to be exceptional and I want you to be exceptional.
Speaker C: Yes.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: I'm not. Like, I want to be exceptional and all y'.
Speaker C: All.
Speaker A: That's not what I'm doing.
Speaker B: We're all gonna win.
Speaker A: I want to be exceptional and I Want you to be exceptional.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: So how can I help?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right? Yeah. And when I am burnt out, I cannot help you be exceptional because I am not my best exceptional self. And I am running up against that. That end of my rope, up against. You know, like, there are 12 stages of burnout for a reason.
Speaker B: Oh, really?
Speaker A: I didn't know that. They start at, like, setting goals that are too ambitious that you can't achieve and end at medical depression.
Speaker B: Oh, gosh.
Speaker A: 12 stages. I walked one of Marilyn's teams through the twin. They were all like, yeah, I think I'm on seven. I'm like, they don't go in twice. You don't have to do 1, 2, 3, 4. Like, they jump around. Like, I was like, calm down. Right. But. But I, I. So there's so many things that you can, you know, we talked about, like, what can you do? I think one of the things you do is, is you have a community that says, hey, you all right?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: You okay? What do you need? Can I help? Can I lift something for you? What do you need? Right. Can I hold something? Can I. Yeah. Uh, somebody has to know what it looks like in your eyes when it's not working anymore.
Speaker B: I used to get. I still get so offended with my sister, who is, uh. I'm going to get this completely wrong. Obstetrics and gynecology consultant Joanna. Forgive me. Um, so she's older than me, and she's always A couple of years. This past few years. Charity. What if you just quit? I'm like, what do you mean, just quit? I'm not public, so I can't just quit, but just quit or just have three months off. So what do you mean? I just said, what do you mean? Just because. Just because you're in nhs, you can just. You're a consultant. You have your own. And it's just money because she's probably identifying probably some stage of those 12. Right. And a completely different. Not even in tech or anything to do with what I do.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Sometimes it takes that community that's not in the product world or the tech world or in does anything to do with LinkedIn just to be like, something here doesn't feel right.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: Do you ever want to quit LinkedIn, by the way? It's just like some, like, weird circle where, uh, everybody, like, talks about how cool they are, and you're like, who is anybody real anymore?
Speaker B: So strange. I feel like it's pivoted. I used to actually use it mostly to be like, I've got this role on My team and I wanted to put personalize it a bit more. And now this is really bad. I was, this is so bad. You could cut this if you need.
Speaker A: No way. Tell someone.
Speaker B: The other day I was like. She's like, are you using LinkedIn for your job search? I was like, I'm so scared of LinkedIn because I keep going on and seeing pictures of like people and their chat, their children and like, I'm on my last pay slip, on my last paycheck. I was, I need to go steal one of my nieces and take a picture with. So someone gives me a job.
Speaker A: Like, no one's going to feed this child. I mean, her mother will, but no one.
Speaker B: And I feel so bad because I know it's real, but it's just, it's. That's what I. It's so depressing on M. On both angles. One, it's people that are like, I've had to take a job at Tesco for 3 pounds, 85 an hour to I'm awesome. And look at this new investment I've just got for my series million company or whatever. And there's nothing in between. There's no humanity. Between is either really human.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And like you're posting in a world full of people that probably just looking at your post and scrolling on.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: It's not like I'm laughing at their destituteness. That's not a word. I'm just. I'm just a bit embarrassed and thinking this isn't the place for humanity where
Speaker A: I think it's kind of the ultimate have and have nots right now.
Speaker B: Right. That's literally that gap.
Speaker A: It feels like there is no middle class on LinkedIn.
Speaker C: It does that.
Speaker A: Is it. It's like you're either losing or winning.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker B: I don't know where I fit in there. I don't know why. So, uh, yeah, it's awful. I avoided it for a while because I was like, I genuinely had many thoughts of like, oh, maybe I should steal a niece. And like on our faces and like clothing.
Speaker A: Ash.
Speaker B: That's really terrible of me to say. Like I said, you can cut it if you want. Ah. But LinkedIn is awful to me.
Speaker C: It has become awful. It has become awful. I think. I think it's. And it's like, you know, Facebook got weird and then it went way downhill. LinkedIn's in the weird going downhill stage and I think it's going to become less and less relevant. It's either people talking about. And Lee and I have talked about this. Like, everybody's on there being like, oh, I'm so fabulous. AI, AI, AI. And then when you go to ask questions about, like, what have you done? Help us understand, like, there's no substance behind it.
Speaker A: It's all just bs.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker C: So there's, like, no creativity sharing.
Speaker B: It's.
Speaker C: It's either like, full on bs, I'm fabulous, or people that are, like, struggling.
Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the same. The same thing's true in the coach and consultant space. It's like, I can help you solve the problems of your life, and I will. No coach actually does that.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: You have the answer, and coaches are there to help you. Right. Consultants. Consultants come in and help you solve a problem. They don't solve the problem for you.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: But all these people are on there. Like, if you give me 49.99, I'll tell you how I did it. And I'm like, are we selling used cars? What is happening?
Speaker B: Especially in this economy? It's so bad. Um, those employment scams or whatever are, like, even more rife during times of low. And I just. Like, that's so, like, morally just awful.
Speaker A: And. Yeah, it's the reason why, like. And people have asked me, like, why do I. I think Gino even asked me, one of our friends, like, how I do my content and how I think about my business, my personal business. Not the where I'm fractional, but part of the reason I don't. I talk about things that I think are useful to people and don't say much more than. If you want to talk about it, I'm here.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: I don't go out and say, I am the coach that you need. I am, um, the perfect coach. I am the only coach. I'm the coach you should be. I don't do that. I am the person who can help you fundraise. I am the person who can help. Am, uh, I sure? Yeah, I can help. Right. A lot of times, but I don't do that because. So gross.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: It really is just like, every time I open LinkedIn, I'm just like.
Speaker A: Like, I don't.
Speaker C: Gross is the right word.
Speaker A: Right? It has. It gives me. It gives me the ick, for sure. Like, I'm just all, oh, okay. There's a lot of virtue signaling a lot. Like, I will start to post something and be like, yeah. And then I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, now.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Signaling like the rest of them, I'm not doing this. Or like, I'm like, no. You know, and I'll But. And I'm just like, no, it's gross. Like, so. Yeah, I think. I think there's a lot to be had there. Okay, let's. Let's, um. Oh, let's do a. What, uh, do I call it?
Speaker C: Lightning round.
Speaker A: Lightning round.
Speaker B: I was like, what?
Speaker A: I was like, rapid. Rapid fire. I was like, well, that would be my menopause. Remember, there's lightning perimenopause. Brain went like, welcome to almost 50. Um. Be 50 in February. 49 is, um. So. Okay. Lightning round. What is. This is gonna be a hard one.
Speaker B: Oh, okay.
Speaker A: What is one thing that you want to do differently in your next role?
Speaker B: Silence. Oh, God.
Speaker A: You guys will hang up or, um, I'm going through a tunnel and I can't hear you.
Speaker B: I live alone. Is that you, honey? You gotta go. I'm coming. Child of mine. Childless
Speaker A: all of a sudden. You guys are both like.
Speaker B: I think the first thing that comes to mind is gonna sound so, like, righteous. But I do mean this for myself. It is enjoy the role that it is. I am so to. When I was a Just I don't. I mentioned as well. Like, I'd had. I joined as like a lead business analyst. And then I was like, head of this. And I was within like three months. New role, four months. Oh, I pitched this role. Product, principal, product strategist. There you go. Got it. Because I worked hard for it and I never actually just. It was great. And, um, even now I still have that mentality of, okay, you've hired me as a VP of product. I wonder how I can be the CEO. Uh, like two months in, like, I wonder how. So I think of this like, my next role is like, just enjoy the role. It's hard. I'm saying this now and please remind me of this. If you see my LinkedIn, just go like, she's now master of the universe.
Speaker A: You now said it, uh, on. You said it on tape.
Speaker B: I said it on tape. I just need to end it. You know, I'm laughing about it, but it also hinders the role itself. Right. I'm so busy focusing on the next thing. I'm not. You know, my role just before this one, I wasn't really thinking about, like, the industry and understanding the role in the box that it was. I was so busy obviously with MBA as well, but just like, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? So, yeah, enjoy the role. I'm not saying I'm going to be less ambitious, but just almost take that as ambition itself. Really master this Thing. Whether it's this thing or this thing. Right. It's not always promotion. It's just scope sometimes as well.
Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. All right, Marilyn.
Speaker C: Well, from someone who sailed past 50 many years ago, um, I, I don't. My next role, like, I want to spend some time enjoying the people and getting stuff done, but for me, I would like this to just be the last role.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker C: And what does that look like? Um, and then how do I, um, meet people and have conversations and do things so that later on I can just consult part time or maybe not at all. Uh, maybe. Maybe I am just going to go sit in the grass for a week after this next role. And so how do I just embrace the now kind of charity. What, what you were saying, like, how do I just embrace the now? Because it doesn't have to be anything bigger and. Or more.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Maybe.
Speaker C: Maybe this is just like. Maybe this is just kind of like the. The last song or the final thing of the fireworks. Right. And then I'll. I'll. I'll go start. I'll go finish starting my distillery.
Speaker B: Exactly.
Speaker A: You'll be doing. You'll be doing other st. She's never going to be. Retired is a weird word. Retired is a weird word.
Speaker C: And there's lots of things I could do in that bucket. M. Travel is one of them. Definitely.
Speaker A: Marilyn will be like, who am I giving this work to?
Speaker B: Yeah, I'm sorry. You couldn't reach me? I'm. No.
Speaker A: Who's my backup?
Speaker C: Yes. All right, Leah, what are you gonna do differently?
Speaker A: You know, it's an interesting question. Like, as I'm starting to imagine, like, you know, I'm doing a fractional role now, and I did that very. In Maryland. I did it very purposely to see if I could do it. Could I do the job of a CPO at the caliber I like to do it three days a week.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: And it has been a challenge. There have been weeks that I've been like, nope, I can't. I have. I'm, um, gonna live it and breathe it and eat it and drink it and sleep it and. And weeks I've been like, yeah, I can. Bye. Bye. I'm done for the day. And I hang up. And I've gotten better and better as time has gone on, and I'm very aware of it, and I'm. I'm kind of on the. Okay, what's the next fractional thing I want to do? What's the next sort of. What does that look like? And I think what would be, uh, What I did last time was I took a fractional role in an industry that I know like the back of my hand.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker A: Like, it was easy to do because I wanted to see if I could do the fractional thing. I wasn't all that, like, I want to go learn a new thing.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Whatever I do next, I want it to be something that I get to learn. Something new, fun. But still, I'd like it to be.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker A: Ah, still fractional, I think. I mean, unless somebody has a really. If somebody's out there with a really kick ass role or interim role, I'll take it. Right. But. But a fractional role in the AI space or a fractional role like, but, but the real AI space, not the vaporware nonsense space, but a fractional role doing something that I haven't done before.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Don't want to work in fintech. I don't want. Unless you're doing something in fintech that no one's done. I don't want to talk about it. Right. Like I did, I did 17 years of fintech. I'm not interested. So I always think, like, the next thing I do, I want it to be something that I go, oh, I don't know anything about that. Right, right. Because I'm missing that. I love to learn. Yeah. And so that's, that's what I want next is something. Whatever. So if someone's out there with a really cool fractional CPO CTO role, I'll take it. Um, okay, uh, last question. What is your favorite way to unwind?
Speaker B: Good.
Speaker A: All these wound up. All these wound up women. How do.
Speaker B: What is this that you speak? What is it called?
Speaker A: What does that mean, honey?
Speaker B: Uh, favorite way to unwind is either, weirdly, a long drive. I don't have a car, so that's probably once a, uh, year. But really is probably doing my nails because I do get them done. But if I can just like put all the sparkles in my house myself, I'm just. That's cool. But mostly these days is classical music and reading is what I was doing just before I started talking to you both on my balcony. Classical music, reading a very weird book. It was great.
Speaker C: I love that. I love that. I do. I mean, you know, Leah, I do pottery. Um, so I think one of my problems is, uh, all of my work is very digital. I spend a lot of time on devices.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker C: And pottery is the one thing that you cannot touch a device while you're doing because you get mud everywhere.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: And I do like that. I, I Also, you know, I just, like, I think one of my very favorite things is just going outside barefoot.
Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
Speaker C: I always feel like I'm a bit of a kid. Yes. My feet get terribly muddy. But, like, who cares? I'm good with it.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I would say there's a couple things. I mean, Marilyn knows I love to read, so that's always going to be a. That's a. That's an escape for me, for sure. Um, but I have learned over the last couple of years to knit. And it is, you know, Michelle Obama's not wrong. Like, you start knitting and your brain can go somewhere else.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker A: Listen, the phrase Michelle Obama's not wrong is usually, no matter what. Let's just say that Michelle Obama's not wrong. Period. End of story. But she's also not wrong about knitting. Like, there is a. There's a sensation of. To your point, Marilyn, I'm making something. I'm usually doing it for someone else.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Um, it's usually this really soft material. Like, I pick only yarns that feel good in my hands. I have a really. I'm like, very tactile thing with my hands. I have to have lotion. I have, like, I'm very, you know, so the feeling of the yarn is important, all of that. And so just that act of making a thing happen. And sometimes I listen to music or watch a show or listen to an audiobook while I'm doing it. But that is the thing I. That is like, it's unwinding something in me to knit. So that's important. And then the other thing that I. I am. Ah.
Speaker B: A.
Speaker A: And I. Sounds cuckoo. Could do as usual. But I am a huge moon worshiper. I love the moon. I love it in all its phases. I love when it's dark. I love when it's bright. I love all the middle places. So going outside and staring at it is one of the best ways for me to go and just feel myself ease back into my body. Because I always say I may not know what I believe in. If there's a God, if there's not, if this is real, if that's real. The moon is real.
Speaker B: You see it.
Speaker A: And she's in charge. She's in charge of the, uh, of gravity. She's in charge of the ocean. She's in charge of her cycles. The moon is real.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So I'm a big nerd about the moon. And that is one of the ways that I can really connect with myself and with other people. So those are. I would say, those are my ways.
Speaker B: I loved that.
Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's a little woo woo, but I don't mind a little woo woo.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So cool. Well, Charity, this was so fun. Thank you for coming and talking to us.
Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
Speaker A: Yeah, it was a lot. It was fun for us to talk to somebody and talk about something different and. But. But that, I think, is fairly universal for a lot of people, but certainly
Speaker B: for a lot of women.
Speaker A: So I love it.
Speaker B: Thank you so much. Awesome.
Speaker A: All right, well, everyone, we will see you next time. Bye.
Speaker B: Bye. Mhm.
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