Nodes of Design#124: Vulnerability in leadership with Christina Goldschmidt

Speaker A: Welcome to Nodes of Design, the podcast that connects the nodes between creativity, technology, AI and human experience. I'm your host, Tej. In every episode, we sit down with global design leaders, researchers, and visionaries to explore the unique nodes that make up our industry. Today we're joined by Christina Goldschmidt, VP of Product Design at Warner Music Group. With 25 years of experience at giants like Etsy and Accenture, Cristina is a powerhouse in scaling enterprise teams and driving social impact. We're diving deep into the power of vulnerability in leadership, discussing how to balance authority with openness, debunking the myth that vulnerability is a weakness, and learning how leading with authenticity actually fuels innovation. This is a masterclass in human centric leadership. Let's get started.

Speaker B: Hi, everyone. Thanks for tuning into Notes of Design. In this episode, we have a very special guest with us. Hi, Christina. Welcome to Notes of Design.

Speaker C: Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker B: So how is your day going so far, Christina?

Speaker C: It's been really great. Uh, it's a hot, sweltering day here in New York City, and I'm in the cool, cool air conditioning, so I can't complain.

Speaker B: That's really wonderful, Christina. So if you could give a brief about yourself to our listeners out there.

Speaker C: Absolutely. So, um, I'm the VP of Product Design at Warner Music Group, and what that means is that I lead the UX team, including design research, content, design, design systems, uh, also, uh, design operations, and I'm personally an interesting mix of both craft and driving, business value and overall leadership. Ah. I'm an adjunct professor at NYU Stern's MBA program. Um, and that's also where I got my mba. Uh, and as a leader, I'm also really trying to destigmatize mental health, and that's why I'm really excited to be here today to talk about our topic.

Speaker B: That's really wonderful, Christina. So what was your journey into design? How did you start, and what are your tips for the beginners on starting the design journey?

Speaker C: Yeah, so I, I never actually planned to be a designer. I actually wanted to be an anthropologist and archeologist. I had spent most of my youth watching, uh, lots of shows on that on PBS and was fascinated, uh, fascinated by people. And what ended up happening was when I went to college, I was planning to use the Internet and data visualization on maps, uh, geographic information systems in order to do predictive modeling, in order, uh, to really try to upend and bring technology to the social sciences. And my university, they weren't ready for it back in the mid-90s, it was just too progressive. Uh, and so I started making websites, uh, for clubs at the university. One of them was called the Program Board. And the main thing they did was they brought big name bands to the college campus. And so I would help build out the schedule so everyone would know what was going on there. And then funny enough, the university hired me to be a designer because they had no one who could do web design on their design staff who was doing communications for the university as a whole. Uh, and then I sort of woke up and said, oh wow, this is so cool. I actually could do this, I could be a web designer. So sort of taking my front end skills and how I was really laying stuff out well and started taking design classes at that university and then just decided to full sail transfer schools and um, become a web designer at that time. That's what we called it then. It's so funny now, um, but it's kind of full circle because it was really that music that actually got me started in design, which is really funny. So after I graduated from school I got out and I actually ended up graduating early and, and it was really fortuitous because I was able to get in before the dot com bust. And so I ended up getting out actually six months before all of my friends and got this really cool job at the Discovery Channel. And it was moving so fast and we were building e commerce websites for them and really neat companion experiences for all their television shows. And then we couldn't hire fast enough. Right. It was like any boom. And so then I was able to say, oh, well, I have all these people who I know who are great at this and was then starting to hire all my friends. And so when I was 21, I actually became a design manager. So I sort of feel like I was uh, born to be a design manager and leader. And because I had the knowledge of how to translate the process and the business that I had to teach all my friends how to do. And another aspect that was really helpful about that first job in management is these were my friends. I had authority, but I didn't have authority. Right. So, and that's a really fundamental approach to management that I still live by today is trying to lead without unofficial authority. I think that as a leader, when you approach management that way, as opposed to authoritarian, uh, leadership or management, you actually end up getting a much better result that you are thinking more holistically about the experience you're trying to create and how to bring everybody along with you and on board. And that helps to build a much stronger culture of trust and um, really helps get a team, uh, behind you if you're actually leading and managing from that perspective. And so that was the first time I actually became a manager. And then of course the dot com bust happened and I went back to being more of an ic and then it was really after business school that I, I came back out and was able to grow back in, in management again when I entered, uh, design in the financial services industry. So. But it was, I think, that fundamental first job right out of school where I set my leadership practices and learn so much in such a fast, short timeframe. And so the advice I would actually give is that nothing really beats the fundamentals. So I'm um, you know, I'm, I'm an executive now. I lead this team. But every day I, I just came out of a crit meeting with my team and every day I'm still talking about the fundamentals of design. And it's really those foundations like typography, color theory, Gestalt theory that I feel that I was so lucky to have had them. Um, when I switched and transferred and sort of got an actual education in design, uh, that really has made it possible for me to always layer on that and always fall back on that. And so, you know, I definitely bring the tech and bring the business and have grown in my career and in my knowledge to make sure I'm bringing that full package. But it's that confidence in those fundamentals that just helped me every time.

Speaker B: Thank you so much Krishna for sharing such inspirational journey. So let's get into our podcast today on vulnerability in Design leadership. So how do you define vulnerability in context of leadership? Can you share a personal experience where embracing vulnerability in a leadership role profoundly impacted a team or a project?

Speaker C: Yeah, so vulnerability is I think such a, interesting topic now, especially post pandemic. And uh, to simply define it, I think it's, it's pretty risky right, to, to, to be vulnerable. And that's kind of how it feels. Uh, it's this aspect of putting yourself out there. But I, I think it's also sort of sharing emotionally about yourself and sort of allowing yourself to be exposed, uh, and, and, and in kind trusting as, as if you want to receive that trust back. I think that's fundamentally how I think about vulnerability in a leadership context and vulnerability in any relationship. And so uh, when you bring some of your personal self to work, I think that you can actually uh, really become vulnerable. And I think it's hard for people to, to want to show up that way that, uh, historically we, we, you know, on television shows and whatnot, there's this separation between work and life and, and vulnerability is not a topic that people bring to the table. And, uh, and. And I've. I was sort of grown up that way in my career and for most of my career, and it felt really uncomfortable to try and bring my whole self to work or share vulnerable moments about who I was personally or outside of work. And there's also oftentimes this need to conform, uh, and sort of try to, you know, be nice and be like everybody else. And honestly, I think as a leader, when you do that, you make it hard for your team to show up as their full selves and to, um, to experience the workplace that we want for them. And so it needs to start with us as leaders. And, and I really started to experiment with this actually in 2020. Uh, the pandemic was so hard, and I was working at Etsy at the time, and we were going through a lot. There was so much change and so much growth, and I was relatively new in my role there. I joined them in January of 2020. So just a few, uh, just only a few weeks before we went into lockdown, I would go to these senior leadership team meetings where they would ask people to share something with the larger sort of senior leadership team. And I ended up going last or towards the end. And all of my peers were sharing these really amazing stories and of resiliency and triumph. And, uh, I was, don't get me wrong, I was extremely inspired by that. And it was so exciting to see what people could do in these challenging, difficult times and what we could do as a company. But it just didn't feel authentic to me to share something like that, even though my team equally had wonderful stories about what they were doing for our customers and as a team. And what I ended up doing was just sharing how I was getting through the day, that I was giving myself daily little luxuries, like how I could learn to quickly make lobster eggs Benedict out of the microwave. And that it was just that one little thing that I did nice for myself in a walk by the water every day. That just made it possible to keep going in isolation and to, uh, you know, hold things together for my team. And it felt really scary to share that it was something completely different than what everyone else had shared. Um, and I was like, oh, boy, what did I just do? But then afterwards, I got slacks and messages from my peers saying, thank you so much for sharing that. That really resonated with me. That was meaningful to me. Um, I feel the same way. And when you get positive feedback like that, you know that you're onto something. Um, and so then it sort of helped me unlock that, oh, if my peers need this, then my team needs this. And to be honest, I needed it. It felt really good to just share those things myself. Um, and so it gave me that permission to keep going and to really start to share more about myself. And I think it really helped me and my team, uh, uh, just make it through.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Christina, for sharing such wonderful insights with us. So what are some of the common misconceptions about vulnerability in leadership?

Speaker C: Oh, gosh. Right. Uh, people think that vulnerability makes you weak, right? That as a senior leader, you just can't be vulnerable and it takes away from all of your power, all of your authority, um, um, and that it might actually even erode respect from your team. That's the fear. That's the real fear. And, um, you know, also there's this thought that asking for any kind of help is bad. Uh, and really, I think that sort of fosters this idea that you can't be vulnerable. You can't share vulnerability with anyone, sometimes not even with peers. Right. Um, and it really, it makes it so that there's this inability to build trust. Um, and that's, I think, the real cornerstone of getting to vulnerability is how can you start to build trust and then you can start to share vulnerability. But it's such a shame that all these misconceptions exist out there.

Speaker B: Thank you, Christina. So, Christina, leaders often face the challenge of maintaining authority while being open and vulnerable. So how do you balance in this, your approach?

Speaker C: Well, I really just see vulnerability as a form of bravery. And with that mindset, it makes it a lot easier to keep moving forward. Um, and so I like to really try to have mutual transparency and really great conversations with my team. And I think that aligns really well with being vulnerable as well, is if you can have difficult conversations with them, um, and they know that you are willing to do, they understand where you're coming from. And when you have a track record of that, they really trust you more. Uh, you know, that adage clear is kind, I think, actually really, really is valid. Being able to give that sort of frank feedback. If you can't do it, you end up hurting the person who's receiving the feedback and yourself because you weren't able to, uh, move the situation forward, and they don't know what they actually need to do. To improve or to grow or to turn around the situation. And. And so that. That really is, I think, a cornerstone of why you want to show up with that vulnerability and to. To foster that great environment so that everyone is in that trust experience. Um, and it's just that vulnerability also makes you be more authentic and real. And, uh, and that just again, helps build and foster that trust. I think so. You know, a good example I have is, uh, during a time, um, I have actually been there where we're talking to the team after it's happened, and I always make sure to pause and really, really acknowledge that it's hard for everyone in the room. Um, and these are the people who weren't laid off. Right. But I think that human moment of saying this was a difficult moment for you all and that we need to actually acknowledge that gives people that permission to feel their feelings. And, um, and I'm always looking for those kinds of moments to be vulnerable myself and allow them to be vulnerable, because then you can get past what's actually happening or process what's happening together and then move forward together stronger.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Christina. So can you share an example where vulnerability in design process led to a breakthrough or a significant innovation?

Speaker C: Mm, absolutely. Um, one thing that I like to do is to ask people to teach me something. Uh, and I think as senior leaders, it you often show up trying to project that you know everything. And I really like to come into certain spaces knowing that I don't. Right. That I've hired these great people or that I'm surrounded by experts. And when I first fully admit that I need to be taught something, I have really had great breakthroughs in design. Uh, so a great example is when I recently joined Warner Music Group and we had a really ambitious goal to redesign a piece of software, uh, for distribution and to do it really quickly. It was sort of this big moment for me where I had pulled my entire team together, a bunch of stakeholders, and I was on stage, in a sense, in front of my team, and they were waiting to see what I was going to do and how I was going to lead them through this difficult challenge. And I then took the marker and handed it to somebody else on the team who didn't expect me to do so. And I asked them to teach me and the rest of the room what they knew about the process. And that then opened up for this big dialogue that we just weren't having and that the team didn't know about. And it was a big aha moment where people started to See those key pain points in the user journey where we could actually start to design a different experience that we thought would be a, uh, competitive differentiation. And so it, it's really moments like that when you feel so good that you know that that vulnerability let something happen, that you made that space for something to happen. Um, um, and I know that earlier in my career if a big um, fancy VP walked into the room and didn't sort of hold the stage and take up all the oxygen in the room, that, that would never have happened. But the ability to do that and to allow somebody else to share their expertise, I think is, is a new way of looking at things. It really just lets the work be better and gives everybody permission to show up.

Speaker B: That's really wonderful Christine. Thank you for sharing that. So could you describe any specific strategies or practices you implement to foster a culture of vulnerability within your team?

Speaker C: Yeah, so I actually try to use change management theory, um, which I learned about in business school. And um, it's really about understanding practical ways to get people on board, but also emotional ways to get people on board. So if, and also both fun ways to get people on board. So I'm looking for a multi pronged experience. How do you make sure that you're putting in systems that help with this, but then also look at the culture that exists there and reinforce that culture. Uh, and so making sure that when we have team meetings that we're sharing about ourselves. And so we now at uh, Warner have these great sessions where people tell us about themselves, they share about their personal lives, they tell us what their superpower is, they let us into their, you know, their homes. It's, it's really great. Um, and so we have this way of getting to know each other, of cementing that we know each other even though we're in a hybrid environment. And uh, and it, and it's a way for us to all share. And it, it, it's across the board. Right. It's not just the ICs on the team that are sharing, but all of the leaders. And um, I'm, I'm up to do it uh, relatively soon. But it's great to just be able to be exactly who you are, as silly as you want to be. Um, but I think when you look at all of those different elements and angles so that you can touch on the different ways to instill a practice. Ah, using change management theory, it just, it just really works.

Speaker B: Thank you, Christina. So vulnerability can sometimes be perceived as weakness, especially in traditional business environments. So how do you respond to such criticism. And what advice would you give to leaders facing these similar challenges?

Speaker C: Yeah, I really think that, I think about this as this perpetuates this lack of diversity in leadership. Um, when you think of the glass ceiling or actually that concept of the glass cliff, uh, where women are given too many challenges, um, that sort of stunt their career, or there's this concept called the queen bee phenomenon which I actually experienced when I was in financial services where there can only be one sort of woman or one sort of diverse person in the room. Uh, they're like, they're fighting for that one space and they're fighting to be like, uh, you know, to assimilate like everybody else. Um, it's when those things work to make that sort of old school, traditional, stereotypical, um, uh, environments that, you know, that you see in movies in the 80s, right. That when those things continue to foster and sort of set how advancement works in companies, that those are the things that really, um, are the ones that I would criticize. And so those lead to that idea of weakness. And I think those perpetuate that idea of weakness. Um, and that's why it makes it so much harder for people to want to try this or to show up in this way. But I find that since now vulnerability is a cornerstone of my leadership, that it's honestly now a key to my success because it's builds a great reputation for me and followership that I can now in a difficult hiring environment, um, hire or in a very difficult environment I can retain or when something goes wrong, my team trusts me to help them, um, uh, you know, weather that storm. And, and so it's really been something that, that's been great for my career and then it also helps just my own personal mental health. And when you work on yourself first as a leader, it actually helps you help your team more. And so those, those reasons I, I just will keep doing this thing.

Speaker B: Thank you, Christina. So what advice would you give to emerging leaders to help them embrace vulnerability as a strength?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's, it's experimentation and try it in safe spaces and small doses. Um, and so I like to maybe try lower stakes environments or with um, maybe someone you're mentoring outside of the job and see how it feels, see what it feels like to share something, uh, and see what kind of reception you get back. Um, it could also be maybe a place you volunteer. Right. So something that is an organization that feels like work, but maybe isn't your work so that you get the practice and the muscle of doing it and Honestly, I just approach every single thing like it's a design problem. Um, and so I would go interview other leaders and really try and get that input and see what you admire about their practice of vulnerability and see what they're willing to share and what works for them and what you can learn and then share back. Um, and they will, honestly, just like you're trying to build a Persona, they can help you understand the benefits, the pitfalls, um, and help you decide how you want to show up in a vulnerable way.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Kristen. So is there any particular leader or mentor who exemplified vulnerability in a way that inspired you?

Speaker C: Yes. So after the dot com bust, uh, I got. The only job that I could get was a, uh, creative director at a law firm, which is such a sort of a funny job to get, right? Very nonstandard. But I learned so much there because I worked for an amazing circle cmo, a chief marketing officer named Mary Kay Young. It was honestly probably the hardest I've ever worked. You know, I've worked in management consulting and, uh, finance, and I swear, nobody works as hard as the legal industry. Um, but, uh, but Mary Kay taught me so much about how to show up for work as your authentic self and how to really care for people and how to have your own authentic leadership style that matches who you are as a person. Um, and she would do things like invite me to her home, meet her family, meet her kids. Um, uh, you know, I actually once she took me to a Green Day concert with her son, which was super fun. Um, and, uh, and, you know, and she's honestly shared things like past failures, past wins with me, and it just. She helped me grow in so many ways because she was so willing to share so much about her. And she's just been this amazing mentor, probably the best I've ever had. And I still rely on so many things that she's taught me and still feel what it was like, uh, in certain situations and recall back to them when I'm in certain difficult situations that I've learned about from working. Working for her. Um, um, and also she was the person who inspired me to move to New York City and to get my mba. And. And so she really just helped mentor me to, you know, to do so many different things in my career.

Speaker B: That's really wonderful, Christina. Thank you for sharing with us. Could you please share with us? How does your day look like? Any interesting stories?

Speaker C: Yeah, so I'm always trying to hack my brain and try and be as productive as possible. Um, so I've sort of gotten to this point where I know what really works for me on a daily basis, uh, during the week. And so when I wake up, the first thing I do is actually I light incense and set my intentions for the day. Um, it's. It's sort of like I'm a mini form of manifestation that I'm really focused on what I want to achieve that day and what intentions I'm putting out into the world. And it's really helped me to have mental clarity and sort, uh, of peace of mind. Um, and so that's been really a wonderful practice that I've been doing. And then also the next thing that I do is I try to sort of also help with my both physical and mental health by working out. Um, so I have a stationary bike in my apartment, and I started doing this during COVID times, but I get up relatively early and I'll go and ride the bike and check my emails, um, and sort of like, maybe process some, um, things I might need to write or those emails. But also, funny enough, while I'm doing both of those two things, I'm also watching the Today show, um, because I find that I stopped really paying attention to social media. But the Today show is a really good digest of pop culture and the memes, and so it allows me to know what everyone else is talking about without actually having to be deep in, uh, in social media. So I, I sort of do this weird multitasking thing in the morning that helps me get prepared for the day, and that sort of like gets me all ready, uh, which is really fun. Um, but most people don't understand how I do it because I sort of sit there holding my laptop while working out and multitasking, and it's kind of a sight to see. Um, but now that I work at Warner, I go to the office four days a week, which actually has been really great to get back into the office. And, uh, I also will work on my laptop on the subway as well. And so because I get on at the second to last subway stop, I always get a seat. And so I'm able to keep being productive, you know, putting my docs in offline mode and continuing to write and edit so that I can really control when I leave the office at the end of the day. Um, and I like to, when I leave the office, I like to actually listen to a podcast so that I can really, um, wind down from the day. I treat the subway on my way home. More like that liminal transitional space. But lately I'm Teaching. Uh, so Tuesdays, uh, and Thursdays I teach from six to nine. So that, that changes my schedule a little bit and I've been a little bit more tired with that. But, um, yeah, but nights are a lot harder for me now to work late. Uh, so I take an anti anxiety medication that kind of knocks me out at the end of the day. So I try to do all that stuff in the morning so that I can just stay productive and then make sure that I'm really up on top of stuff so that I can wind down at the end of the night.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Christina. Before concluding the show, we wanted to know what are your three favorite books and also people who inspire you the most in the space?

Speaker C: Yeah, so a book that, I don't know, a lot of people have heard about is this memoir called what My Bones Know by a Asian author named Stephanie Fu. And it's her journey, uh, uncovering her complex post traumatic stress disorder diagnosis and how she sort of deals with it. Um, and I found it to be really profound as someone who also has CPTSD to, to hear her journey and her reactions to it. Um, if you listen to the audiobook, she actually has recordings with one of her therapists which is extremely intimate. But it's a, uh, really interesting intimate book that also talks about sort of, ah, the multigenerational, uh, mental health issues and uh, you know, ancestral trauma that exists in uh, the Asian diarasma too. Um, so which affects me as well because I'm half Vietnamese. And so I think that it's this really vulnerable book from a woman who's also uh, really taking on this challenge of understanding her diagnosis and learning uh, from it, um, and sharing so much with us. And so I found it to be really, really poignant. Another book that I like is Super Communicators. Um, this one's relatively recent and it talks about how to be a super communicator. It's research around people who are super communicators and the reciprocity and the interest in other people really models great vulnerability. Um, and so there are some really amazing tips that actually help you be more vulnerable, but actually show you how you, how they're a benefit to you too through communication. And then I think a classic that I've heard a lot of people mention on your podcast is the five Dysfunctions of a Team. Um, and that book really was one of the first places where I heard the idea of being vulnerable and coming together as a true team where we knew more about each other and So I think it's a foundational piece that a lot of people, it's the first time they get exposed to this idea. Um, and it's also just a really easy book to read. Um, so I would suggest that, uh, and people I think about, um, Brene Brown, you know, she is just the poster. Everyone knows her as the person who talks about vulnerability. She really helped me to show up more vulnerable at work, but also in my personal life. Um, and so watching her, you know, TED talks, Netflix specials, reading her books also, um, I would suggest, and also, maybe you might not guess this, but a person I think who's really in her later, uh, part of her career shown vulnerability is Martha Stewart. She has really changed from that idea of everything is perfect to her. You know, she still has some of that, don't get me wrong, but after she went to prison, her entire outlook has changed. And she leads with humor and she shows up, uh, authentically. M. And she really is just someone who is like, non apologetic about who she is. And I really appreciate that from, um, from where she is and who she is and how she is as a, as a female leader.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Christina, for sharing all these recommendations and also the wonderful insights on vulnerability and leadership. So we are looking forward to host you again in our upcoming episodes. Thank you so much for your time today.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you for joining us for another node of insight. If you found value in today's conversation, please don't forget to follow the show and leave us a, uh, rating. It's the best way to help us grow this community of design education. If you're looking to dive even deeper into these topics, make sure to check out my book, Nodes of wisdom lessons from 100 creative visionaries. It's packed with actionable takeaways from the world's best leaders. And you can find the link right in the show notes or description. M. I'm Tej, and until next time, keep connecting the nodes and pushing the boundaries of design. We'll see you in the next episode.