Nodes of Design#123: Audio Branding with Dexter Garcia

Speaker A: Every time you open an Apple computer and you hear, you know, the Apple startup sound, you can, you can just say Apple startup sound to anybody and they know exactly what you mean. And that sound has been around for so long, it's had some changes here and there in terms of pitching up or down in the length and things like that. Um, but the association to the sound and the brand is so strong is like, it's like incredibly strong. Probably one of the strongest brand product sounds that exists.

Speaker B: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Notes of Design. Notes of Design is a podcast that dives into the fascinating design world by hosting conversations with leaders from across the globe. Each episode unpacks the unique journey of designers, artists and researchers, offering insights into their creative process and perspective. Today, we are diving into the fascinating world of audio branding, a powerful dimension of design that shapes how we hear and feel the brands. Joining me is Dexter, an audio branding strategist, UX sound designer, music producer and co founder of Oreo ux, a New York based sonic branding agency. Dexter and his team have been at the forefront of crafting holistic sonic identity systems for some of the world's most innovative brands, from international banks and electric vehicles to AI voice assistants and smart home appliances. In this conversation, Dexter takes us behind the scenes of how sound becomes a core part of the design. We explore the psychology of audio, the craft of building consistent sonic identities, and how brands can harness the emotional power of sound to connect with people on a deeper level. So plug in your headphones and tune in. This episode will sound different in the best way possible. Hey everyone. Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to quickly share some exciting news. My new book, Nodes of Wisdom Lessons from 100 Creative Visionaries is officially out. This book is a cumulation of insights and experiences gathered from interviewing some of the most inspiring minds in various creative fields. I'm thrilled to share their wisdom with you all. You can find the links to purchase the book on Amazon in the episode description. Be sure to check it out and let me know what you think. Hi everyone. Thanks for tuning into Notes of Design in this episode. We have a very special guest with us. Hi Dexter. Welcome to Notes of Design.

Speaker A: Hi Taj. Thanks for having me on. It's great to be here.

Speaker B: So how was your day so far?

Speaker A: Oh, uh, you know, starts, uh, the same as every morning. I get woken up at about 7:00 clock bright and early from my 10, uh, pound Chihuahua that's just ripping and ready to go for the day. Got, I got, um, little Dog licks all over my face. And then we're off to the races. Feeding her, walking her, and then, uh, yeah, just booked it right to the studio to chat with you, if you're a dog owner, you know what I mean? It's one of the greatest ways, uh, to get woken up in the morning. Kind of like a nice. Kind of a nice, funny, uh, personal alarm clock. Um, but, yeah, uh, I'm excited to be here, Tej.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dexa. So if you could give a brief about yourself to our listeners out there.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm, uh, my name is Dexter Garcia, and I'm a co founder of a company called Audio ux, which is an audio branding agency based in New York City. Our studio is based in kind of right in the middle of Manhattan on 14th and 6th. Uh, but I reside in Brooklyn, one of the. One of the cooler boroughs, you might say. Um, but, uh, yeah, thank you, Dexter.

Speaker B: So what was your journey into audio design and how did you start and what advice would you give to someone looking to start a career in audio branding?

Speaker A: Yeah, so the way I kind of got involved with this whole thing was just by being a musician by trade and being a music lover from the beginning. Um, just kind of getting introduced to music at a young age and then following and practicing instruments throughout school and everything. But I'd say it really officially started when I made the decision to go to Berkeley College of Music in Boston. Berkeley, if you don't know, uh, is a music conservatory in music industry and entertainment and technology school in Boston, Massachusetts. And, uh, I feel like that was where I got to really understand and explore the, uh, kind of outer limits of where I could take my musician, musicianship. I got introduced to a lot of things there. Um, you know, music business, which I was really interested in, got to kind of accelerate my understanding and practice in music engineering and sound production and acoustics and psychoacoustics. It was a great way to kind of dip my toe into kind of all aspects of applying your sensibilities to sound. Um, but from there, you know, like everybody. Like everybody that goes to Berkeley have big dreams of being a rock star. And that's sort of what I pursued first is I recorded an album, uh, and, uh, had the. Had the amazing opportunity to. To tour that album. It got picked up, did a little bit of touring in, uh, the U.S. canada, uh, uh, a little bit of, um, UK and London and a little bit of Europe. So I kind of started the. As a recording artist and, um, being in a band, and I sang And I played bass and I wrote songs along with my kind of fellow band mates. And it was a really good experience. It really. Being in a band teaches you it's like a crash course in all these kind of micro aspects of business and marketing, actually. And because you're, you know, creating a product and then you're kind of marketing that product and promoting that product through touring, and then you have to think about album artwork. So now you're thinking about, oh, well, how. Well, how does the visual aesthetic, uh, or our visual brand match up with the, uh, this audio content that we've created, uh, or this, you know, this art that we've created? And that was kind of my first dose of trying to put together a holistic experience, um, for an audience. And I really loved doing that. I really loved thinking about the, you know, my career as a recording artist as this like, holistic experience. And so those concepts of holism in brand and marketing, like, once I got kind of involved in a little bit of that world later on in my career, the concepts really made sense and I was able to apply my, My experience, you know, what little experience I had from you know, uh, being in a, In a music group to the practice I have today. So. But while I was touring and while. While I was playing music and recording and in studios and working with the labels and agents and all that stuff, um, it's not enough. It's not enough money to, uh, to support yourself, as the story goes. So, so in the background, you know, I was using my musicianship and I was using my comp and songwriting, um, for commercial music. And like, like many bands do, you know, kind of. Kind of Nightlight as, uh, as. Or Moonlight. Sorry, as a, uh, as a commercial writer. And so we were writing music for different brands like Tiffany's and um, different uh, short films. And um, I loved that part of writing and I liked strategically applying. Whereas, you know, in the. In the band, um, you know, you're really just writing from the heart a lot of the time, um, kind of putting down on paper whatever comes to mind or whatever you're feeling that day. But in writing for, you know, like a creative director and an agency and for a brand, for a commercial purpose, I liked that, um, there was a strategic framework to apply, uh, my musicianship. And so I kind of. I kind of grew fond of that process. And so naturally, for me, after the band stopped playing and I didn't want to do the touring thing anymore, um, I naturally found myself, you know, writing music consistently for brands and advertising uh, agencies. And so through that process then that you know you start to expand into. And I got hired at ah, an audio branding branding agency. And then from there um, found some other creatives. Um, we were all working together and then one day we decided, we say hey, I think that we can really take this audio branding practice to the next level. Uh, kind of transitioning out of commercial music and into audio branding. I really like there was even more of a strategic emphasis, emphasis on the longevity and the scale at which you could create musical assets for a brand. I thought that was really interesting and I liked that there was sort of this immortality to um, what you would create and it would live for a long time with the brand. And so there was also lots of importance with that. And uh, I like that it was really high stakes if you might say in terms of what I was putting, you know, down into a short form song or something like that. So I think that just, it really resonated with me and then it felt really strongly enough to kind of band together with some other really amazing creative people, um, and then start uh, our own agency called Audio ux. And, and that. So I guess that's where. Sorry, you can cut out that pause. But I guess it's kind of, that's sort of where m. Where audio, Audio UX and what I'm doing today. That's sort of how that was, how that was born. I think for, for some advice. You know, if you're looking to get into audio branding, uh, there' different angles at which you can, you can get involved in audio branding. Whether it's through um, you know, the film scoring route or through uh, game sound design or through songwriting. You know, audio branding can be applied to kind of a brand strategy in a myriad of different ways. Whether it's an audio logo, whether it's a brand theme, whether it's product sounds for a device, uh, whether it's uh, kind of consistent commercial music in advertising, there's many different ways. I wouldn't worry too much about, um, you know, do I have the right background qualifications and all that. I think that if you have a great sensibility to sound and you have a good kind of mind of uh, of, of business and marketing, you know, I think, you know, skills can be, can be learned along the way. You know, it is important ultimately to be really effective as a creative, to have to really be a really versatile composer and to be a really versatile creative. And I think being a good listener is almost as, as important as really good writer. Um, you really have to be. I think it's important to kind of sharpen your skills in order to be successful in this career, to be, to be a good listener to your clients and to really hear what people are trying to say because you're the expert in the room, right? Like, you have the language, you have the knowledge, you, uh, have the education in this category. And I think what really makes ultimately a great kind of creative partner to brands is the ability to listen and the ability to pick up on your client's intuition, um, the ability to pick up on the nuances and what they're feeling and what they, what direction they want to go in. And I think that ultimately is one of the biggest skills you can have when getting into audio branding. You know, you will always continue to develop your compositional skills, your engineering skills, you know, but the number one goal is to help translate, um, what, you know, your partner brand is looking to do in terms of sound. So you need to really be a good listener and a good translator. So I think in terms of advice, in terms of starting the career, I would say as long as you hold that piece really, really dear to your heart, then you know, the practical and hard and soft skills, those will come along the way. I mean, you do have to functionally be, you know, a good, an educated and proficient composer and everything. Um, but just knowing that, you know, uh, always being, always being a learner, always discovering kind of new ways to practice your sound design technique, to practice your, your, your musicianship, to practice your musicality. Because, you know, being a, maybe a commercial music composer by trade or a film scoring composer by trade, you're sort of, you're in a very consistent arena. You're applying your compositional skills in very similar, uh, very similar environments. But when you make the transition to audio branding, you really have to hop between, ooh, sound design for a product. Okay, now I'm doing an audio logo for TikTok. Now I'm doing maybe like a music library for, uh, a particular brand that's, that's trying to scale out, uh, how they, how they use their musical assets. Um, now I'm thinking about doing sound design for an automotive experience. You know, there's many audio branding agencies get called upon to use their, you know, sonic consulting and creative skills in a really wide range of applications. So it's important to always, always be, always be a learner of new platforms and new techniques and always to have your ear to the ground of what's happening and what's happening with brands. So, yeah, just being A good listener and always being open to new concepts. And always being. Yeah, just a constant learner of new technologies and new concepts, I would say.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dexter, for sharing those wonderful recommendations with us. So let's get into our episode today, Audio branding. So how do you define audio branding for our listeners who may be new to this concept, and why is it essential for businesses today?

Speaker A: Yeah, I would say audio branding, and I really like starting with this definition of audio branding, but I think audio branding is really. Can. Can be defined as any intentional use of sound or music in association with a brand. It's really. I think if we start with audio branding as a really broad definition, it's really helpful to kind of open the doors of understanding to audio branding. And it really helps kind of deal in a, uh, audio branding or kind of demystify audio branding and kind of create more access to more brands that are looking to get into audio branding. Like, for instance. I mean, with that said, most people understand audio branding from the perspective of the audio logo. The audio logo is kind of the. One of the more popular. You know, the audio logo is undoubtedly, you know, uh, the. The strongest association that people have to audio branding. But while that's all well and good, and that is. Is the truth in many ways, I, um, think it's helpful to think about audio branding as being any intentional use of music and sound if the goal is to associate your brand with the sound. And that can be any sound. You know, I even consider, you know, a really good example of this is like, there's a coffee shop kind of near. Near my place. And every morning I go to this coffee shop. Not because the coffee is really good or there's. There's not even a lot of seating at this coffee shop.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But every time I'm in there, you know, the barista is playing really good music. So good that I have to, like, if I'm standing in line getting in coffee, I. Every time I'm getting coffee in the morning, I have to whip out my phone and I have to. Shazam. Like, what is playing right now? This. This just fits the day and the time so well. It just fits whatever season this is. I find this particular barista has a really good sense of music and is able just to, you know, put something on that. That. That makes everybody feel either at ease or just excited for the day. Um, and I like using this example because in order for me to get to this coffee shop, I have to pass two other coffee shops to get to this coffee shop. The Those other two coffee shops arguably have much better coffee than this coffee shop that I go to. But it's, it's the musical experience that really draws me to go back and to spend my money there and for me to talk about like I'm talking about right now, um, about this experience that I'm having. And uh, you know, maybe that's, that's kind of an amplified scenario because, you know, I'm obviously a music lover, but I think that's, that's really, can be translated to a lot of different people that, that show up there. But I think even, even that, that kind of primitive example of intentionally using music just, just even to create a good brand experience like that is a form that's the most basic and probably most primitive form of audio branding. And I think it's really good to, to think about audio branding as that starting place. Now with that, with that being said, you know, most brands do come to the audio branding marketplace looking for an audio logo because the audio logo argu arguably, um, one of the most effective assets and tools that, you know, a brand can use, um, when it comes to audio branding for sure. Um, and so I think, so I think that's really helpful to think in that definition. I think it's really helpful for brands that think about it that way to approach the business challenges that they have today when it comes to using audio and music and sound in an effective way because the landscape has really changed over the past decade or so. Um, you know, audio branding really started as, you know, the jingle writing practice and you know, and I think a lot of the fundamentals of jingle writing are still really relevant today. There's still like an artistry and a musicianship and there's still all of those aspects at play here, like the underlying creative and art, uh, creative and artistic talent is still applied today. But there's, there's a heavier emphasis now on kind of strategic, uh, strategic, strategic thinking and design and strategy. Um, and I think that's largely due because the platforms have really change over the past little while. You know, we have an explosion of, of, of uh, social media and social media platforms. There's obviously explosion in podcasting and podcast ads. There's explosion in digital, uh, media, the digital audio streaming, Spotify, Tidal, iheartradio, uh, Pandora, um, the number of audio first or audio enabled platforms and the rate of audio consumption has totally exploded over the last, last little while. So you know, brands need to figure out, okay, well how do we now that there are, there are these more now that There are more channels for us to express ourselves in an auditory, uh, in an auditory dimension. You know, like, how do we do that in an effective way? You know, how do we do that in an intentional way? And that's where audio branding really slots in to help guide brands to make the right decision. So, you know, I think if you're not using audio branding, um, you're likely making, maybe you're making intentional decision decisions. Sure. When it comes to the music and the audio that you choose for these spaces, um, but you might be making some unintentional decisions. And audio branding really helps make sure that you, you're building upon something. When you're investing in audio creative, you're likely purchasing music, you're likely spending money on original music. Audio branding just helps connect the dots and start the foundational pieces to build upon, uh, something that you can turn on. And so I think that's why now audio branding specifically has also had, um, you know, it's kind of been m. The audio branding has been kind of searched more on Google than ever before. I, um, think the audio branding space in terms of agencies are lots of new agencies now, which is great for, for our industry. Um, and I think all, you know, a rising tide. Uh, but, uh, yeah, that's, I would say that's, those are kind of the reasons why, uh, audio branding is sort of making this, maybe even reemergence now is because of all the new platforms and because brands are looking for a way to kind of build upon and make the most impact on all these new channels. And so as folks, uh, like me that have sonic sensibilities and an understanding of, you know, consumer behavior and branding and marketing techniques, you know, we can be helpful in the conversation to help make the right decisions. So, um, it's a really. And on top of that, that what all that means is that it's a really exciting time for audio and audio branding now. And I think there's been lots of great, uh, applications of audio branding in the past little while. So it's certainly a really exciting time for audio branding in general.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dexter. Cut. So Dexter, what does the process of creating an audio brand look like? How do you collaborate with clients to capture the essence of their brand inside sound?

Speaker A: Yeah, it. Starting the process. It can really start from many different angles, but I think it's best to, and we always try to push to um, do a little bit of an exercise into exploring what, what a brand needs. You know, if a brand is really interested in exploring audio branding, knowing that, you know, they have a desire and they understand the impact of audio branding. Trying not to predetermine assets and a strategy before doing a little bit of a collaboration, collaborative exercise, I think, is a really good place to start. That, that always can't be the case, you know, and there are m. There are certainly, you know, more than likely assets that you will need, like an audio logo and things like that. Um, but I think it's really helpful to start the process and doing a little bit of an audit and a little bit of landscape in terms of, you know, where is a brand currently, uh, communicating? You know, what are the different avenues and channels and platforms that we need to account for in determining the best sort of system to apply? And then from there, you know, I think it starts with, uh, the fundamental and primitive exercise of just trying to create a language around how the brand sounds. I think that's the first good place to start, you know, in order for the collaboration to be successful. You know, communication, listening, having a shared language, having kind of that shared thread of understanding between you, the musical expert, and your. And your brand partner, you know, uh, who you're designing for. Like, that. That connection is really important. So I really like to place a lot of importance on building connection between us and the brand partner. And I think there's a. Also certain element of, you know, us becoming part of their, uh, culture and, you know, eat, sleep, breathing their brand, wearing the company hat, um, knowing their brand as well as they do or as we can. I think the best way we can do our job is to show up to the party and just be one of the team. You know, I want to be, you know, living those moments every day where they're thinking about how do we make an impact in our. In our, in our marketplace. I want to become an expert in their product category. I want to be there cheering on the sidelines like, yes, we're going. We're taking down our competition. You know, I, I think the best way to make an impact with your brand is to be fully invested. And so I think for us that the whole process really starts with that empathetic portion or just like, developing that empathy for your brand partner, putting yourself in the shoes of your brand, and then you do the exercise. Okay, now I'm, um, putting myself in the shoes of their customer and of their audience. And then you think like their customer, you act like their customer, you behave like you're their customer. And so I think the more understanding and empathy that you can have for, you know, your brand and their audience is really the best way to start also. Um, and then from there, you know, so, um, there are many different sonic and auditory exercises, um, that we'll do in terms of mapping attributes and doing some initial impulsive listening. And then like the many design thinking processes go, which is our process is built off a little bit of design thinking because that's necessary to create a scalable and impactful and modular and um, um, kind of like high, I would say highly, highly useful audio branding system is to start thinking about your audio branding process process from a perspective of design thinking. And then we kind of follow through the design thinking process that makes the most sense for them. It's nets. It's really never a cookie cutter process. Um, I think process has. Audio branding has certainly evolved and I think this is a good time to talk about how the process has evolved over the years. You know, the pro audio branding process really started out as jingle writing and there were a lot less platforms to think about. So, you know, the process, the creative process itself is fairly, fairly streamlined for the most part. I think the process. Now, I think if you're going to lead a successful audio branding strategy, you really have to be able to be flexible in your creative process. You really have to be able to start from any one point or position. Um, all brands are different, all brands have different channels, all brands have a different audience, all brands have different product lines if they have that. So your process really needs to be super modular, very flexible, and you need to be able to start from wherever the, wherever it makes the most sense to start from. You really can't be too precious with process. And I think that's one of the biggest changes that's happened with audio branding over the past little while. Um, and I think one of the ways to help make your process more modular and flexible is to incorporate a little bit of design thinking, a little bit of UX strategy into your audio branding creative process. I think that's what we found to be very successful and helpful to our brand partners. So, you know, there really isn't, uh, yeah, there are steps of, and there are stages of thinking, you know, in terms of, you know, impulsive thinking and workshops and exercises and conceptual directions on themes or certain, uh, you know, design directions, whatever, whatever you like to call it. And then, uh, the process of, you know, production and refinement and then testing, however testing shows up for you, whether it's user testing, internal testing, there are many different kinds of testing. And then ultimately, you know, thinking about, well, how do. And then Kind of, you know, finishing the process with, okay, well, how, how do we roll this out? How, what, what, what makes the most sense to promote this? You know, how does the brand now, now that you've created this system for this brand, how does it, how can you empower your brand to govern and maintain and manage this new system? Because that's essentially what you're creating at the end of the day is, is a new system of brand assets. And uh, so I think just to cap it off in terms of, um, the audio branding process, I think it's really important for the process to stay flexible for you to be, for it to be successful. There to be a really clear line of communication. Your agency really has to be one with the brand perspective, one with the customer perspective. And you have to be an expert in their category and their competitors and you have to build the right creative team to service, uh, and to apply musicianship towards the strategy. I think that's also a really important part of it. Um, as I mentioned before, you could come into audio branding from a creative perspective, from film scoring or game sound design or songwriting. It's really helpful if your audio branding agency is able to call on the right creatives for the right moment at the right time, for the right product category and for the right brand, you know. So I think in terms of successful process, yeah, it's about being as empathetic as possible and being as resourceful as possible, being the best listener you can be to your brand partners and in ensuring that, um, they're able to participate in the process in a simple way that's easy for them, easy for them to make a decision intuitive. And then ultimately when that, you know, some form of a handoff happens and you're delivering what they've asked you to create, it's easy for them to digest and for them to use on their own. And, and I think when you think about the transition of audio branding in the days of jingle writing to now, it is a very different practice entirely. It's transitioned way more than just a creative production house focusing on one asset and has completely grown and transformed into elements of consultancy, brand strategy, um, audio marketing. Audio branding agencies today, I think, really have to evolve their process to deliver on the needs of their brands that really occupy those different categories of strategic thinking and creative production and then also testing and measurement and as it. And so on and so forth. So audio branding agencies have really grown and matured over the past little while just to meet kind of the rising demand, you know, from consumers and what brands are trying to do. And so, again, really exciting time for process. I think right now we're seeing the audio branding process continue to evolve and mature. And it's in its, uh. It's been really interesting. I know that our company. One, um, of the things that we really try to focus on as much as possible in each and every project is how. How should the process evolve for this project? Process is never a. It's not a recipe, right? It's not steps to a specific goal. It's. It's stages of thinking in order to get the best creative output possible. So we're always thinking, how is the process designed for this brand? How do we apply these stages of thinking for this specific goal? And I think that's how you can keep your process fresh, adaptable, make sure that it's, uh, properly evolving to the needs of, you know, the marketplace and your brand partners.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dexa. So how does the audio branding influence the emotional connection between a brand and its audience? Can you give an example of a successful emotional trigger created. Created through sound?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, well, audio branding, um, you know, in terms of applying sound and music to a brand experience, um, it really is all about the emotional connection. You know, people have such an innate and instinctual connection to sound and music as it is. You know, you think about, you know, everybody, you know, whether they. Whether they can think of it right now or not, but like, has. Has a favorite song. They have a song that takes them to a time and place. They have, um, you know, they remember the song that was playing at, like, prom or their graduation or, you know, at their wedding day or, you know, they remember songs that, you know, their parents showed them when they were kids. And I, And I just. I bring those up as examples just to kind of remind everyone that we as a humanity just have such a strong connection and universal connection to sound. And I think that's what's so powerful and so different about audio in sound and music when it comes to the branding aspect of it, that one of the great advantages is that it's universal, right? Like, uh, you know, within the margins here and there in terms of regional tastes and cultural aspects. You know, everyone can listen to a song and feel emotionally, uh, changed by a piece of music. That's the capability in all of us. Um, just to tell a quick story, recently, um, my. My partner showed me a, uh, study that was done on newborn babies and how, um, infants are able to recognize a consistent beat, um, like newborn babies able to, when they're exposed to kind of a consistent rhythm, something changes in their, kind of their response to, uh, in terms of their brain response to a consistent rhythm. And it's so interesting. I just found that study so interesting because it just, it's just further reveals how, how core our sensibilities are to music and rhythm. And I, and I think that if we can harness that power, you know, if brands can really wrap their heads around creating that innate connection between their brand and their customer, knowing that deep inside someone there is that deep connection to music and sound, um, it can be a really powerful thing. You know, not, not just in terms of just trying to, you know, create like the most effective ad or whatever, but just, just trying to create the best and most meaningful experiences for people. And I think that's why I got into this business to begin with, is just to use, you know, what I know as to be my talent and to make a connection with anybody on kind of their deepest sensibilities when it comes to music and sound. It's such a beautiful thing. And, and I, and I think if you just start from that understanding of everybody has a deep emotional connection to music and sound, that can be harnessed in a really powerful way for brands to create great experiences for their customers. And so, you know, building off of this innate connection that we have, that can be applied to an array of different things, whether it's the sound of somebody's voice in your advertisement or from your brand podcast, whether it's the, you know, the audio logo at the end of your commercial that is, you know, that resonates with a customer that's right for the moment, or whether it's the music that you chose as part of your brand short film, or that you compose for that, you know, whether it's when you walk into your brick and mortar location, it's the right songs for the right playlist for the right audience that, you know, we know that we have this innate connection. But also, as of recent, there have been lots of really great studies on measuring the effectiveness on brand impact. So now we're just starting to create and kind of connect the dots between, okay, we know as human beings we have this very deep connection to sound and music. But what does that mean for investing in, you know, this from a brand strategy perspective? Well, there, there was a great, um, study done by Ipsos that kind of measured the effectiveness of brand assets in terms of, uh, visual brand assets, copywriting slogans, and audio logos. And it found that audio logos are up to eight times more effective, um, than, uh, kind of visual brand assets when used in, whether it be a piece of video content or an advertisement. Thought that was just so powerful. And I think that's what we're starting to learn now as, um, user testing capabilities are becoming more accessible to lots of brands. And we're finding that, yeah, we know that we have this innate human connection, but now we're starting to see the actual data associated with, well, what kind of investment are we. So what, what kind of return are we making on this investment into audio branding? Like if we use an audio logo, can we quantify the actual impact on a customer? And you really can. And it's really helpful in, in terms of many different ways, not just creating, you know, connections between all your different channels and connecting them together and having a consistent, and having consistency and holism in terms of creating experience. We know we can do that, but it actually empowers the messaging and the memorability of your brand. The content of what you said in that advertisement. There are just so many, so many different metrics where we're now finding fantastic data and research around the effectiveness of audio branding. So I, so that I think it's important for brands to know that, that we're able to connect that kind of innate human emotional connection. Now more than ever, we're able to create that human connection to the roi. I think that's a really important, um, really important anecdote about kind of where audio branding has come. It's come so far in terms of its kind of strategic thinking. It's really come, come to a place of starting, really starting to measure, um, the ROI on audio brain branding. And so, you know, I think about some really, really great examples of this. You know, we've talked about like the kind of the theory behind it and everything, but I think great examples of this are like, for instance, and you can do the best job you can through forms of, you know, empathetic exercises and putting yourself in the shoes of your client and their customer. I think another, another challenge from there is I would say, you know, creating that language between you and your brand partner. Partner, creating the creative momentum between you two, trying to understand how your brand partners think about sound, you know, how the brand would like to be expressed through sound. And then I would say, uh, you know, in terms of challenges from a, from a project perspective, I would say just, just trying to manage, um, how much, how much time and commitment and how much availability you have from your brand partner and just trying to feel, you know, every brand is really different. As I said, you Know your, your process and you know, your project process really needs to evolve to the needs of your brand partner. Every brand partner has a different amount of time they can allocate to your project. And so you need to be able to adapt quickly to hey, you know, our leadership team only has a, you know, a really small window of opportunity to approve something or you know, being able to adapt, you know, the fundamentals of your project process to the availability of your brand, brand partner. You know, um, I'd say that's, that's, that's a challenge that you need to work through with them. You know, every brand likes to be either have really regular recurring, lots of communication points, you know, regular um, meetings and that kind of thing. And then in other cases, you know, it's a, it's a little bit touch and go with your brand partners if they have uh, kind of more commitments and you know, they're managing you and probably a cabinet of other agencies, you need to be able to respect their time and kind ah, of their mental bandwidth. And um, so I would say, you know, as a kind of form of that uh, another big challenge would be, you know, trying to match the ambitions of your, of your audio branding strategy, uh, with a simple process. I think that the simplest you can make your audio branding process achieve monumental goals. That is the sweet spot that you want to be in. You know, as an expert in this category, it's very easy to make things very complicated. It's very easy, I mean with any expert in it, any, in any category, you know, that you get called upon to consult for, it can be easy to overwhelm your brand partner with lots of information. You know, so I, I think the best job you can do is to how do I make this project and this journey for my partner as simple as possible? How do I make them feel comfortable? How do I make them feel empowered and properly, you know, educated and curious about the process? And also, how do we make this fun too? How do we, how do we make the audio branding process a fun project to be a part of of. So I tend to think about all of those things as challenges. But I would say, you know, maybe those are universal challenges for any kind of design company. I would say though, the challenge that I'm focused on most today is the um, aspect of adoption and governance for an audio branding. So an audio identity that we would create for a brand, making sure that, that yes, uh, sort of after the process is done of hey, we've created something that we love that's going to Be effective. We know this is going to work in all of our channels. This is fantastic. We have our library of assets, whatever that may be. The process of adoption and governance on the brand side, you know, that's kind of the hard part. It's a little bit like sending your, you know, your kid off to school. It's like we've created this baby together and now you know, you have to be a little bit involved in managing and making sure that you know, they're empowered to, to utilize this system. Right? You've given them audio tools to use and just making sure that handoff moment um, is, is easy for the brand. You know, they feel well equipped to use their new tools and their new library and their assets, um, on their own in the most effective way possible. You know, I think I've seen many projects or just I've seen you know, logos come out or Audi branding projects come out in the industry and I've been a part of, of projects before previous agencies where you know, you see a grand opening of someone's uh, new audio identity, but then it maybe falls to the wayside over time and uh, for whatever reason, you know, um, whether, whether it is maybe it's lack of effectiveness or maybe it's um, lack of governance, you know, but I think now that audio branding and audio identity creation has really scaled out to, to a system of assets, you know, whether that's you know, an audio logo system that takes on different forms of shortness and length and maybe multiple versions of kind of an original brand music library product sounds, um, you know, a vocal, ah, um, vocal identity library of on brand, vocal talent. You know, the audio branding system can really get pretty large. Right. Um, and it can be lots to manage. But I think, think you know, the biggest challenge is making sure that you know, we, we get our brand partners kind of well empowered to use their system, um, in a way that's effective for them and then, and then circulate that around the company, uh, bring on the right folks and make sure everybody is educated. And so I think that's, that's one of the trickier uh, things to work through at the back end. You know, you know, your creative process is probably likely a small group of people or sometimes it can be a small group of people, you know, big creative decision makers. But then once you get to the end of this creative project, lots of people have to use it different, not even just internally, different agencies, different agency partners, content creators. So kind of building the system to live alongside the brand's visual Brand identity and whatever the system they have there. I think that's, that's a big challenge that I think is in the blind spot for a lot of projects and for a lot of people. And I think it's one thing that we, we've really emphasized trying to improve and evolve and uh, to be as fluent as possible in making sure our brand partners are properly set up so that they can use their assets and govern the system themselves internally with their partners kind of going forward.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dexter. So, Dexter, how do you measure the success or impact of an audio branding strategy?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good question. Um, because there are many different forms of success and I think it's really important to define what success looks like as early as you can in part of the, part of the, um, beginning stages of the project. And those can be, you know, I think you have really brand specific, you know, success goals. Like, hey, we'd, we'd like the audio branding to, you know, be easily deployable in these really main channels that we have that we're really focused on. I mean, those are, you, uh, know, indicators of success if you can effectively deliver them with a, the, the brand is really looking for, which maybe are more universal forms of success. But, you know, I think maybe tried and true forms of success when it comes to audio branding are, you know, how memorable is the audio identity that we've made? Uh, how memorable is that? And there are, there, you know, there are tests and studies that you can do to measure how successful the memorability of what you made is. I would say, uh, also client success is a really important one for me. You know, I think, think if the process and the project that was performed, um, I think, I think for client success, I think if the process was easy and that your, your client partner was kind of educated along the way, if they felt engaged, you know, I think all those, those are really good forms of success as well. And I would say, you know, and there are measurable forms of success, right? Like you can get the opinions and thoughts and feel your audience and, and expose them to what you've made and say, hey, do you, you know, do you like this or do you not like this? You know, how does this make you feel? And if that is me, is that if that is reaching the kind of metrics that you've put in place in terms of the forms of success for the project, then that can be a form of, of success. Right? But I think maybe some of the forms of success that are kind of lesser known I, I would say not just in terms of the effectiveness or the sex success of the creative output itself. Itself, but I think it's really important to place some success factors on the longevity and the kind of the rollout of the audio identity. I think it's important to place success metrics on, you know, how easy is it for your brand's team to use and deploy the audio logo or the audio identity themselves. So I think there, there's an array of different, different, different um, success measurements. But I would say it ranges from client success to marketing success to creative success and to strategic success. And um, as I said, you know, from the top, I think it's just about identifying what those are to begin with. But I think one of my favorite parts of uh, measuring success along the way is that user testing aspect in terms of, you know, how successful are we in terms of the impact that we're making on customers. Customers. I think it's so interesting when you uh, perform a study, at least a sound specific study with a uh, group of people and just seeing how folks kind of respond to audio stimuli and hearing how they express how they're feeling in response to maybe it's an audio logo or a piece of M music. That part is at least one of my favorite and most insightful parts about, about the entire journey. Because so much of the process and the strategy is sort of theoret, right? We're making a lot of assumptions and we're posing a hypothesis about what kind of sonic creation are we going to make. And we hope that this will make an impact. But when you actually get to the moment of now, you've made something that you believe in and it's time to test it with your audience. That kind of moment, that anticipation moment of hey, we've tried to deliver creatively and all these forms of success. Now we need to really validate that, that with our user base. That moment when you're asking folks what do they think of what you made is such a, is such a really um, insightful moment, a moment for me, the way people describe how they're feeling. You know, sometimes they'll say, oh, this reminds me of this, of this sound that came from this or that or something in their past. Or like oh, this sounds like a song that I heard or something like that. Or like uh, or someone will say like oh, uh, this, this reminds me of just, just the associations that people make when they're exposed to something like that. I think it's, it's really insightful and uh, you know Whether positive or negative, you know, that's sort of the whole point of the user testing process. Um, but uh, yeah, I think that, that, that part when you're searching for success or validation and success, that user testing aspect I think is just such an interesting part uh, to me as a part of that journey along the way.

Speaker B: Thank you so much Dexter. So where do you see the future of audio brand heading with the rise of AI and are there any emerging trends that people should be of. Aware. Aware of?

Speaker A: Yeah, I get excited about um, creative AI and how it's developing with sound and music. I, you know it's really come a long way. You know, it's definitely a little bit further behind than visual AI in terms of like generative creative output and that kind of thing. But I, but there are some convincing platforms, you know, and music AI is really complicated right now. It's, I mean it's not too complicated but there's just many different forms of generative music. Whether that's you know, from an audio perspective like Google, uh, LM or from kind of a MIDI data perspective like some other platforms. Um, there are many different ways to like activate um, generative music, um, and generative AI and it's, it's getting there. You know, it's definitely not to the uncanny valley, um, destination where I think now we're getting, with visual AI. You know, now we have like visual, we have, we have you know, AI influencers and stuff like, like creating Instagram accounts and they're even um, promoting products and stuff like that. And it's really hard for people to tell the difference between human and AI influencer at this point now which is a really interesting place that we've gone to. But when it comes to music we're still a little bit further behind. So I think we have sort of the luxury of seeing how um, image in video, generative AI is sort of taking off and how it's being applied. And I think you know, for folks like me, you know, folks that are kind of at the forefront of the industry and where this, you know, will likely be applied, it's important for us to really observe what's going on and then to understand okay, how do we apply this in an effective way to our industry. So I think we're getting the luxury of seeing that in a different medium. But I get excited about it from you know, I think there's lots of um, kind of terror around. Oh, this is going to replace creatives jobs and everything like that and you know, know everything is at risk because you'll be able to press a button and generate an audio logo and things like that. But I think we're like really, really, really far away from that. Maybe there will be a day where that comes, but I think more likely in the short term when we get to a convincing place with, um, AI Music. I think it'll just help, uh, generate, you know, audio assets for brands at scale. It'll be a really cost effective tool for brands. You know, I don't think, think, you know, the role of the strategist and the audio creative is going to be erased. I think it's just important that as audio strategists and creatives, we adopt this as a tool to help our brand partners, um, scale their audio desires and their, you know, their goals through AI. Right. Um, and so I get, I get, I get excited about being able to play with that in terms of creating, you know, more assets for, for brands at a cost effective rate. And then also. So, um, using AI to generate new creative ideas that you wouldn't necessarily have created before, I tend to think about it as an interesting superpower, sort of a turbocharge to the process and um, a way to generate new, uh, creative ideas. So I think it'll likely take that, that form of just plugging in and empowering the process and empowering what we're already doing. And I, I think I'm just a little less stressed maybe, maybe not rightfully so, but I think I'm just a little less stressed about it completely era everybody's jobs or something like that. But I think just to kind of mitigate that even from our, you know, from a, from a creative perspective as a, as a creative in this industry, I think embracing it is the best thing you can do, you know, um, and just figuring out how to use it as a creative tool for yourselves and an effective tool for your partner. So I'm curious to see how it continues to evolve. You know, we're certainly, certainly playing around. I'm in, experimenting with these things and seeing how it can be, how it can be used. But, um, you know, I'm definitely not on the side of, you know, hey, we need to slow it down, shut it down, you know, but I, I, uh, tend to be more of an optimist, I guess. So, uh, it's exciting. It's, it's an exciting place to be.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dexa. So what advice would you give to brands just starting to explore audio branding? And what resources would you recommend to our listeners who want to learn more about audio branding?

Speaker A: Yeah, I would say in terms of just starting out, it's, you know, I think for a brand that's just looking to dip their toe into the conversation is to start by talking to somebody. I would say start by just having a conversation with, you know, somebody like myself or just, you know, you know, an expert in the industry and just having an intro conversation about, like, hey, you know, I understand this is an effective thing for other brands. Um, but I'm not sure if this is right for me. Have an open conversation about, about it, you know. And then also I would say, you know, look at your competitors, see what your competitors are doing. You know, look at your brands that you admire most. You know, see how they are using audio. Most brands are using audio and music and sound in some, some, in some intentional form. And I think that's why it's going back to the top of our discussion today in terms of, well, really, what is audio branding? If you broaden your definition and simplify it to any intentional use of sound and music, it really opens up the gate and creates more access for all brands of any size. Uh, to, to utilize an axis audio branding, you know, if, if you're a small brand just starting up, obviously you don't have the big budgets to invest in some grand system, but you can start by making intentional decisions early on just to help empower what you're doing now as your brand is just starting out and to make sure that there's no wasted effort really. And so that can, that can start at the most mic with the smallest brand of, you know, two people in a seed startup and what have you. And uh, but that can also scale out to, you know, major corporations that have had, you know, a heritage brand for the last 150 years or something like that that are saying, hey, you know, we've never really tried audio branding. What does that look like for such a monumental and global international company like this? There's a way to get involved and to start making intentional decisions with sand and music. Music for brands at any size. So, um, I, I think, yeah, that's where it starts is like looking at your competitors, seeing your landscape, you know, uh, looking at the brands that you admire most and then just having an open conversation with an expert in the industry and getting some perspective on it. I would guarantee you that there, whether you're a small or large brand, you most likely have made a decision on sound in association with your brand, which, whether it's the sound of the voice that's narrating Some commercial, whether that's the sound being used of the commercial itself, the music that goes along with the commercial, um, you know, whether it's your brand podcast and you need an intro music, you need outro music. There is some decision around sound being made, and if it's not intentional, then unfortunately it may be, you know, may go to waste. So there are sound decisions being made. It's just about, about really maximizing them and connecting the dots. And that's how folks like myself can be helpful to, uh, to. To people in the industry. Any company, small or big, there's a way to get involved.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dexa, for sharing all these wonderful insights with us. So could you please share with us how does your day look like? Any interesting stories?

Speaker A: Oh, man. Um, how does my day look like? Um, I don't know. We're off on break, so I'm am trying to do the most, most uninteresting thing and pretty much relax and just listen to music, try to recharge, you know, take stock, take care of my mind and my body. Trying to recharge, get ready for a new year. Uh, but I think the most. Actually the most interesting thing that happened to me was last week I was, uh, I was on a trip to Spain. I was on a trip to Barcelona working with an automotive client. And, uh, and because this is more interesting than me just sitting on the couch listening to some records, uh, we were working with an. An automotive partner where, where we had created the, uh, the external engine sound of an electric vehicle for them. And so I don't know if, you know, if this is sort of a new thing in, um, as the rise of electric vehicles kind of comes about here and in, in the US and internationally. One of the most interesting things that's happening with The Rise of EVs Is this new sound regulation that is a part of, um, any new EV that's brought into the market. So any new EV now, uh, that is entering the marketplace has to emit an external sound, basically as a replacement for, uh, the traditional internal combustion engine sound. Now this external sound, though, uh, has a ton of really strict and detailed requirements about how loud it can be, uh, what kind of frequencies it should be emitting, how long and at what speeds, um, and all these different kind of, uh, auditory and sonic regulations around it. It's actually, it's a tricky thing to design, but it's something that we've become kind of experts in over the past couple years. But we were, we were, um, preparing this vehicle to, uh, get certified for their external, uh, electric vehicle sound. And we were working in uh, one of my favorite places and favorite, favorite facilities to work in, which is called a hemianechoic chamber. So if you're familiar with an anechoic chamber chamber, you probably are, Tej, you know, from being associated with Microsoft because they have one of the quietest anechoic chambers in the world. Uh, but an anechoic chamber for the listeners out there, an anechoic chamber is a specially designed room that is the quote, unquote, um, quietest. Some of the quietest places on Earth, which means there are zero reflections of sound happening in that room. So basically, typically if you're in like a bedroom or a living room or something, sound is bouncing off the walls at all different locations and places and in different directions. And it's kind of creating sort uh, of an ambiance or kind of sonic ambiance to the room. It's contributing to the loudness of the room, it contributes to the sound of your voice and all these things. But in an anechoic chamber, which is completely designed to eliminate any sonic reflections, it is technically some of the quietest places on, on Earth. So it's, it's ah, in a hemianechoic chamber just means that um, it's ah, it's a place where we bring in an automotive vehicle. And these are big room, right? So it's a very big room, probably, probably about the size of a basketball court. It's a really interesting design if you Google it, if you just look up hemianchoic chamber, um, the design of these places is so interesting. It's just uh, it looks like all these different spikes coming out from the ceiling and from the walls and everything. And um, and it's such a cool place to work because it's one of the quietest locations in the world. And so, uh, that was, that was a pretty eventful week working with, you know, a new ev, uh, working on this new kind of sound, trying to, trying to navigate this challenge and help our, help our client meet this regulation. Working in one, uh, of the coolest, uh, facilities or like acoustic facilities I would say. Um, I love to work in. And also I was in uh, I was in Barcelona for a little bit. So, so I had a good time um, abroad. So that was probably the most interesting week probably of the year. Uh, but uh, that's a lot more interesting than how I'm going to spend uh, this weekend in New Year's, which is probably just relaxing.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dexter for Sharing such a wonderful event with us. So we'll conclude this show by your three favorite book recommendations and also people who inspire you the most. The space.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know what? Since we're have a music themed podcast today, I'll recommend three albums that um, I've been listening to and uh, and hopefully, hopefully your uh, your listeners will appreciate that. So three. So I've been listening to actually on the way here I had a man and when I was in Barcelona I was just playing this non stop. I've been listening to the Life of Pierre font 5 by Pierre Bourne. He's like ah, like an R B and hip hop producer that you know, makes music for kind um, of more famous uh, rap groups and, and hip hop artists. But he has like an individual album that I think is so good and um. Yeah, really really really simple. It's really simple and I really like his choice of keyboard sounds or synthesizer sounds. It's really like sparkly stuff. It's like the whole thing just has this like, and sparkle to it but then there's like a simplicity in the whole, in the whole thing and simplicity and melody and simplicity and harmony and it's just like such a meditative album. So I'm, I've been listening to that like non stop. I'm sure it'll show up on my 2024 raptor or something like that. Um, the other one that I just discovered like really recently and maybe I'm behind on this but um, I've been listening to, to uh, space 1.8 by uh, Nala Senefro. Such a cool like experimental jazz and ambient album like has all of my favorite little bits of, of sound kind of in. In one album from just like real ambient meditative stuff with synths to these like really colorful phrases with saxophone and just like explosive drums and just yeah, it's like. It's a, it's a super emotional journey but also in this like, yeah, really zen like state from start to finish. So highly recommend. Space 18 by Nala Cinefro. And then um, this, I'd say like another big record for me probably. Oh, I forget what the album is called. It's Life Without Buildings. The third, the third album I've been listening to a lot is uh, Any Other City by Life Without Buildings. Yeah, really, really cool rock group from uh, like indie rock group I think from Scotland or something like that. Um, kind of around like the early 2000s. Yeah, there's just, I mean the vocals I think are the most interesting part about this record and um, it's by this. This woman who's a visual artist that I guess, like, decided to make. Make a mu. Like one. Like one music record as, like, a part of her, like, artistic journey. And so there's only one record by this band. And so I. I wish they would have made more records. But, um, there's a, uh. It's. There's a cool, like, repetitiveness to the vocals, and then it's like really dry guitar. Um, and everything just feels so close and like, intimate and like, really imperfect and, um, like real emotional guitar stuff. Stuff. But then, like, really poetic, repetitive vocals and just these. These drum phrase. Like these drum phrases that are just, um, this really simple. And, uh. I don't know, maybe there's a theme that I'm going with here. Like, simplicity is key or something like that. And that's like, what I've been listening to. But yeah, that's. That's kind of been in heavy rotation for me, uh, over the. Over the last little bit. I would just say the first thing that comes to mind are just, you know, when I think about this year and I think about, you know, the people that inspire me, I just think about all the composers that we work with. You know, um, we've got just, like, an incredible team, and I learn so much from my team, like, every time we collaborate together. Just new techniques and ways of thinking and. And I would say just my team every day, I think is I. Cause I work with them so much. And we're constantly talking about audio branding together. We're constantly talking about sound. And I think, yeah, without. Without saying, like, you know, like Gandhi or something like that. Like, just the people that I work with every day, you know, the. Our creative team, we're really blessed to have such a great group of people. So just getting to work with my team and just getting inspired by the folks that you work with every day, I think that's. This year has been, uh, really inspiring for me.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dexter, for sharing all these wonderful recommendations with us. We are looking forward to host you again in our upcoming episodes.

Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you, Tej. This has been really. This has been really great. And, uh, I just appreciate you so much having me on. Um, I'm a big fan of your podcast and, uh, I look forward to keep on listening to you and your guests.

Speaker B: Thank you so much,

Speaker A: Sam.