SaaS Growth Podcast · 2024-12-09 · 36 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
45 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Brandon Lutz brings experience from Indeed and Amazon to explain why offline advertising matters for B2B SaaS beyond the saturated bottom-of-funnel channels like paid search. Most SaaS companies rely heavily on digital tactics that only reach problem-aware buyers already searching for solutions, but Miro is expanding into podcasts, connected TV, and out-of-home advertising to build brand awareness and category entry points - mental links between the brand and specific problems buyers face. Lutz walks through practical measurement approaches: geo-experimentation divides markets into test and control regions to isolate channel impact over 6-10 weeks, while coordinating with other teams prevents experimental overlap. He emphasizes that offline channels aren't inherently unmeasurable; they just require different methodology. For SaaS founders and marketing leaders, the key insight is that offline advertising works best after digital channels plateau, starting with lower-risk experiments like programmatic YouTube or podcast ads before scaling to TV or radio. The conversation covers audience segmentation (podcasts for product managers vs. billboards with high waste), the importance of brand recall in long enterprise sales cycles, and building credibility through executive speaking and sponsorships rather than direct selling.
Use geo-experimentation: divide your market into regions, run the campaign in some regions while keeping others as controls, then compare metrics like conversion rates and brand lift over 6-10 weeks to isolate the channel's effect. This causal impact analysis was successfully used at Indeed to measure terrestrial radio in Europe.
Start with smaller, lower-risk formats like programmatic YouTube or podcast advertising to test the waters before investing in expensive TV or radio campaigns. Only move to bigger offline channels once paid digital channels plateau or cost-per-acquisition rises.
Enterprise deals take months or years to close, so you need buyers to think of your brand when they encounter a problem your product solves. Offline channels let you reach people outside work contexts - on podcasts, TV, and newspapers - to build brand recall and category entry points that influence their decisions.
Coordinate with regional marketing heads before running experiments; stagger overlapping tests or run them simultaneously with multiple variables (like testing radio, TV, both, and neither across four regions) to gather richer insights without delays.
Match the channel to your audience behavior: podcasts work well for product managers and higher-income, higher-education audiences, while billboards have high waste for niche B2B segments. Research audience segmentation and media consumption patterns before selecting channels.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The geo-experimentation methodology and the four-group test design are genuinely useful, but the rest of the episode is largely surface-level B2B marketing 101 - bottom-funnel saturation, brand awareness matters, start small. The useful density is low relative to the runtime.
We tested terrestrial radio alongside brand TV in Germany. We created four groups: one with just radio, one with just TV, one with both, and a control with neither.
Offline is the Everest of advertising - aspirational for many. Start by mastering your paid digital channels like search and social.
The framing of causal impact and geo-experimentation for offline measurement is more rigorous than typical podcast fare, but the overarching arguments - digital saturates, offline fills the gap, build brand equity - are widely circulated B2B marketing consensus with nothing contrarian or first-principles.
Many B2B SaaS companies rely on content like blogs and white papers, but people don't live on LinkedIn all day.
Channels like paid search are very focused on the bottom of the funnel - they catch people who are already aware of their problem and actively searching for a solution.
Brandon Lutz is a legitimate practitioner - Head of Offline at Miro with hands-on experience scaling offline at Indeed Europe and Amazon - which is directly relevant. However he's a mid-senior individual contributor, not a C-suite decision-maker, and the transcript doesn't surface the depth of experience his résumé implies.
At Indeed, I scaled offline advertising for SMBs in Europe. We used causal impact analysis and geo-experimentation.
My background is in top-of-funnel and offline advertising for B2B, so I was brought in to expand into broader channels in a more data-driven way.
The Germany four-group radio/TV experiment and the six-to-ten week geo-experiment window are the only concrete specifics; there are no campaign results, conversion numbers, budget ranges, or named outcomes anywhere in the episode, leaving most claims unsupported.
We'd divide the country into regions. In some areas, we'd run the campaign, while others would act as a control group. Over six to ten weeks, we'd compare the performance.
terrestrial radio is still huge in Germany, while podcast advertising is more mature in the U.S.
The host's questions are predictable and sequential rather than probing - he never pushes on results, challenges the measurement claims, or asks for a failed experiment. When Brandon raises geo-experimentation and category entry points, the host moves on rather than digging in, and the episode ends abruptly with generic advice.
It's definitely less sexy to measure brand awareness ROI, but it's valuable.
That's fascinating. Any final thoughts for SaaS marketers considering offline advertising?
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Full show notes at In this episode of the SaaS Growth Podcast, host Carl interviews Brandon Lutz, the head of offline and new media at Miro, about the importance and strategies of offline advertising for B2B SaaS companies. Lutz explains Miro's role as an innovation workspace aimed at product development teams and discusses how his background in top of funnel and offline advertising led to his current role. He delves into the rationale behind incorporating offline channels such as podcast advertising, YouTube, and terrestrial radio, emphasizing the need for a different approach to measurement and the potential for brand awareness campaigns. Lutz provides insights into methods like geo-experimentation to measure the impact of offline advertising and discusses the importance of understanding market nuances and target audience to choose the right channels. The conversation also touches on the synergy between online and offline advertising, the role of brand awareness in the sales process, and strategic experimentation to determine the effectiveness of different channels.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
[Carl] Hello, and welcome to the SaaS Growth Podcast. This week, we’re here with Brandon Lutz, the Head of Offline and New Media at Miro. Hey! [Brandon] I’m doing well, Carl.
It’s a bit cold by me, but I imagine it’s also pretty cold by you over there. [Carl] Yeah, Finland’s a famously warm country in the winter, I know. Anyway, can you tell us a little about what’s happening at Miro and how you got involved in their offline advertising? [Brandon] Sure.
Just for context, Miro is a B2B SaaS company. We call ourselves an innovation workspace, helping product development teams - engineers, product managers, designers, marketers, and IT - manage their workflows. From brainstorming and ideation to structuring product briefs, journey mapping, and task management, we aim to be a full-service tool in one space. Before I joined, Miro's acquisition efforts were heavily digital - paid search, paid social, YouTube, and podcasts.
My background is in top-of-funnel and offline advertising for B2B, so I was brought in to expand into broader channels in a more data-driven way. I’ve worked at companies like Indeed and Amazon, which gave me the experience to scale offline efforts globally. Right now, at Miro, we’re scaling podcast advertising, experimenting with YouTube and Connected TV, and planning some out-of-home advertising campaigns. So it’s busy!
[Carl] Sounds like it. I’m not an expert on advertising, especially offline. Why is offline advertising so important for Miro right now? [Brandon] There are a couple of reasons.
First, let’s consider the B2B industry. Channels like paid search are very focused on the bottom of the funnel - they catch people who are already aware of their problem and actively searching for a solution. But what about everyone who doesn’t know your brand or that your solution exists? Many B2B SaaS companies focus heavily on bottom-of-funnel tactics because they’re measurable, and leadership teams love seeing those direct results.
But relying only on paid search becomes a problem as competition grows and costs rise. Eventually, the question becomes, “What are we doing to engage people before they get to paid search?” That’s where offline and top-of-funnel advertising come in. [Carl] That makes sense.
Paid search catches people who are already problem-aware, but you’re missing out on those who haven’t started looking. How do you measure offline channels if they aren’t as straightforward to track? [Brandon] Good question. It’s not that offline channels can’t be measured - it’s that the approach is different.
For example, at Indeed, I scaled offline advertising for SMBs in Europe. We used causal impact analysis and geo-experimentation. Let’s say we wanted to test terrestrial radio in the U.S.
We’d divide the country into regions. In some areas, we’d run the campaign, while others would act as a control group. Over six to ten weeks, we’d compare the performance - like conversion rates or brand lift - between regions with the campaign and those without. By isolating the channel’s effect in this way, we can determine if it’s driving results.
[Carl] Do experiments on other channels interfere with these results? [Brandon] That’s a real risk, so coordination is key. Before running any experiment, I meet with the other regional marketing heads to align on everyone’s plans for the quarter. If two experiments overlap, we either stagger them or find opportunities to test multiple variables at once.
For example, at Indeed, we tested terrestrial radio alongside brand TV in Germany. We created four groups: one with just radio, one with just TV, one with both, and a control with neither. That gave us richer insights without delaying our campaigns. [Carl] How do you decide which offline channels to experiment with?
[Brandon] It starts with understanding your market and target audience. Different markets have different offline behaviors. For example, terrestrial radio is still huge in Germany, while podcast advertising is more mature in the U.S.
Audience segmentation is also critical. If I’m targeting product managers, I’d think twice before using billboards, which have a lot of waste. Instead, podcasts might make more sense because they skew toward higher education and income. It’s always a balance between scale, waste, and market dynamics.
[Carl] When should a SaaS company start investing in offline channels? [Brandon] Offline is the Everest of advertising - aspirational for many. Start by mastering your paid digital channels like search and social. These are measurable, fast, and closer to conversions.
When those channels plateau or your cost-per-acquisition rises, it’s time to explore other tactics. You don’t have to jump straight into big campaigns like TV. Start with smaller steps, like programmatic YouTube or podcast advertising, to test the waters. [Carl] What about brand awareness?
How important is that in the sales and marketing process? [Brandon] It’s critical, especially for enterprise deals, which can take months or years. You want buyers to think of your brand when they encounter a problem your product solves. Many B2B SaaS companies rely on content like blogs and white papers, but people don’t live on LinkedIn all day.
They’re watching TV, listening to podcasts, or reading newspapers. Offline channels let you meet them in these spaces, increasing brand recall. Getting your executives to speak at events or sponsor podcasts can also build credibility without being overly salesy. [Carl] It’s definitely less sexy to measure brand awareness ROI, but it’s valuable.
You mentioned “category entry points” - can you explain that? [Brandon] Category entry points are mental shortcuts that link your brand to specific problems or moments. For Miro, we want people to think of us when they need to brainstorm or manage product timelines. Unlike basic brand awareness, this metric shows whether your brand is associated with relevant contexts, which is crucial for influencing buyer decisions.
[Carl] That’s fascinating. Any final thoughts for SaaS marketers considering offline advertising? [Brandon] Offline advertising isn’t a dirty word in SaaS. Start small - test programmatic ads, podcasts, or local campaigns.
Understand your leadership’s risk tolerance and show them how offline can complement digital strategies. It’s about building long-term brand equity while keeping a data-driven approach. [Carl] Thanks so much for coming on, Brandon. Where can people find you?
[Brandon] You can find me on LinkedIn - just search for “Brandon Lutz” or “LutzBrandon.” I’m happy to chat! [Carl] Thanks again, Brandon. And for everyone else, we’ll see you next week.
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