Growth: 3 Pillars of Creative to Beat the Attention Recession with Amy Budd, Launch

Speaker A: If we think emotionally about the content that we're sharing and what's the story behind it, then you're much more likely to, uh, stick around for the full ad. There's lots of research that shows if you combine the distinctive brand assets with a positive entertainment or a positive emotion from your advertising, you're seven times more likely to see incremental revenue as a result of it. You're listening to the Keep Optimizing podcast

Speaker B: to increase your traffic, improve your conversion

Speaker A: rates and grow your profits.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome. I'm Chloe Thomas, the host of this e commerce marketing focused podcast. If you're not familiar with our format, we release five episode miniseries that dive deep into one e commerce marketing topic at a time. It could be channels like email or SEO or Facebook ads, or a big, big topic like acquisition, uh, retention or growth. In each episode, new ones released. On Wednesdays, I interview a different expert to explore the latest advice on making it work for you. And then after each five episode miniseries, we take a week off to give you time to take action on what you've learned. With this episode, we're kicking off a brand new five episode series exploring the topic of growth. How to really grow your business in 2026. Now, I know all our episodes are about growth in one way or another, but you've been under a rock if you haven't realized that great e commerce growth is no longer about getting one tactic right. It's about a full funnel approach, maybe even a full organization approach. And that's what we're exploring in this series. Untapped opportunities for growth that turn over all those rocks you've been ignoring. In this episode, we're kicking it all off with Amy from Launch, who's taking us through how to grow brands in an attention recession by sharing the three pillars of creative. So if the whole piece of we've got to be more creative, we need better creative is driving you slightly mad. Prepare for a super practical but also big picture, step by step way of how to make it work in your business. This is a super practical, trackable way to leverage your brand to grow your results across every channel. And Amy is taking us through it in just the right level of detail with loads of cool little tips and tricks along the way as well. Make sure you listen right to the end of the episode because she's sharing some great answers in the Quickfire Insider tips section to help you maximize the performance of your business even more stuck spending more on ads, but growing less if your spend keeps climbing but growth has flatlined you are not alone. Many scaling ecommerce brands have hit a wall and doing more of the same is not the answer. The performance marketing experts at Launch have built the seven Levers of Growth diagnostic framework that pinpoints what's holding your business back. Want to find out where you stand against your competitors? Take their free 7 levers scorecard. It takes 5 minutes and you'll get an instant benchmark report across the seven areas that drive real growth. Head to keepopt.com launch that's L A U n C H and see what's really going on. In this episode, I'm chatting with growth expert Amy Budd. Amy is the client services director at Launch, a, uh, B Corp. Performance marketing agency that helps brands grow in a way that actually lasts. Mixing smart data with creative thinking to build campaigns that work now and also in the long run. Happy clients include weird fish, Piglet in bed and green people. Hello, Amy.

Speaker A: Hi Chloe. Lovely to be with you.

Speaker B: Very cool to have you on the show. Kicking off this growth series. Now before we get into all that good stuff though, how did you end up in the world of, uh, performance marketing and growth?

Speaker A: Ah, ah, that's a good question. Um, I have been in this marketing industry for about 20 years and plus started off, uh, client side working at Canon in a tech kind of comms role, but then switched into strategy on agency side and that's where I've kind of stayed and probably the last, I'd say eight years, moved into more of a performance role. Um, and now client services director, as you said at Launch, working across a real mix of brands and helping them to grow.

Speaker B: It feels like, like you've moved from general agency to performance agency with your strategy hat on. It feels like strategy has become an essential part of any performance marketing. Yeah, you know, it's not just like we're going to chuck some money at the ads, get great at targeting and woohoo, we'll be, we'll be singing all the way to the back. That strategic piece has now almost become what probably has become the most important part to get right because everything trickles down from it. Would that be a fair assumption?

Speaker A: Absolutely. I think, you know, I think we've kind of as a performance world moved from being very tactical acquisition focused into really, we talk, we refer to it as think for me, you know, working with clients, um, in terms of thinking about the full funnel, thinking about how performance and brand work together. But yeah, that strategic kind of overlay on that is really important. Um, and also, you know, customer journeys are so complex now. So really understanding the ecosystem and that strategy piece is really part of that. So yeah.

Speaker B: Now your title for this episode is Three Pillars of Creative to Beat the Attention Recession. Before we get into the three pillars, I think we should cover off, which we've kind of just started talking about anyway. But the um, why we should care about the attention recession, why we should care about all this. So why is it important for us to do this? And what's the big picture of what we're doing? Big question.

Speaker A: So the attention, let's start with the attention recession and what it is, I suppose. And I think it's that noisy world we're living in right now. Um, you know, world events and big news days seem to be a daily occurrence. And that combined with class, WhatsApp groups pinging you and an ever kind of full inbox. So it's that, that we are really kind of seeing is making a huge difference. But that combined with what we're seeing in the marketing space is that advertising exposure to ads, um, has doubled over the last 10 years. So 10 years ago we were seeing uh, 600 ads a day, that's now 1200 ads a day. And that kind of exposure, exposure to marketing, it has increased um, you know, significantly. And that has really kind of had an impact as well in terms of how we're seeing messages, how we're consuming content. That combined with a real shift, you know, the Netflix effect, um, has really changed how people consume media. Whereas, you know, once we were a captive audience, sat on a sofa in front of the tv, now we're all in different rooms with different browsing, you know, uh, content. And that is something that's really challenging from a marketing perspective. And we're seeing since 2020 as well that the low attention shift in terms of media has really boomed. So whereas prior to that, you know, TV broadcast kind of upper funnel advertising was very much the kind of place of brands to build. Now we've shifted in kind of lower attention, um, digital channels, uh, with short term goals. And that has really meant that from a marketing perspective we've really got to think about how we grow a brand in that kind of very noisy space that we're, we're operating in.

Speaker B: And I mean a lot of this is about, or a lot of the reaction to this is about embracing that full funnel thing. So right the way from top of funnel to bottom of funnel, where I think in the, in the E Commerce space in particular, we've been guilty of being almost entirely consumed by the bottom of the funnel with the occasional straying into the middle a little bit, but just, just a little. Is that full funnel shift if we think historically it would have been TV etc at the top of the funnel and uh, Google Ads at the bottom of the funnel. It feels now more like marketers have to take a full funnel approach in every channel.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's, yeah, absolutely. There's a real. Yeah, I would completely agree with you. There's you know, the things that we can now do which you know is a really positive thing because it means that if you've got, if you haven't got big TV budgets, which at one point, you know, it was only kind of very specific kind of high FMCG brands that were able to do that, you can now get in, you know, on connected tv, um, at a lot lower level of spend with a much smaller audience. So yeah, we have to think about that full funnel in terms of the channels, um, themselves and also just the ecosystem that is so the wonderful grace. Uh, Kite did some research into the number of different platforms and how it has this kind of compound growth effect. So by adding more channels, adding more touch points, you're going to be able to grow your brand effectiveness. And that can be true in terms of platform too. So with different goals, whether it's a reach and awareness goal at the top of the funnel, down towards um, conversion goals at the bottom of the funnel. You can do that across meta and even you know, Pinterest, um, is doing more conversion goal based activity as well now. So yeah, there's a real opportunity for brands to think full funnel. Not just in terms of the kind of traditional media platforms that we once think of, but digital as well. M is a place that you can

Speaker B: build brand before anybody goes. Amy said I need to do more. It's not just more. There's a lot of, you know, you need to do the right more. It's not just a case of turning around to your marketing and going we need to be on every platform multiple times a day and it will be fine. So I think to answer, to explain what they need to do, we should get into your three pillars, Amy, because I think that's, that's the core of what we actually do. Rather than just send more emails, uh, run more ads, do more social. So should we go to the first of the three pillars or do you want to give us a quick overview of the three pillars before we dive in? Whichever you think is best.

Speaker A: So yeah, in terms of these three pillars we have been looking at um, and again this Came from a really good piece of research called the Creative Dividend, which has come out, um, from System 1 and Effie, which is a really useful report that's just been published. Our framework is focused on how to build brand memory from a creative perspective. So in terms of the ad content that you're producing, and we're looking at these three pillars, building, ah, distinctive brand assets around recognizable brands, um, looking at relevance and then thinking about the emotional triggers in rewarding your audience. And if we start with kind of that recognizable one, uh, at uh, the outset, that is thinking about what are the magic ingredients that makes your brand your brand. So what are the distinctive brand assets? And that could be your typography that you use, it could be the color palette that you, you use, it could be the visual representation. So if you take a brand like Red Bull, for instance, it's got this wonderful illustrative style that they've been using consistently for over 20 years. And we just know instantly when we see the ad created that it's a Red Bull ad. Sonic cues, um, is a really underutilized kind of little ingredient as well as part of that which can be used, you know, over a long time too. So it trying to think about those distinctive brand assets that make up your identity. And if you were to remove the logo from your ad, would you still recognize it? So they refer to it as like the blur test. Um, and if you were to lay out your ads, would you still be able to confidently feel that that belongs to you as a brand and a great brand that's done that is who gives a crap where they've got a really distinct distinctive, um, visual language that they're using that's disrupted a whole category and you know instantly where that, um, where their advertising is coming from. So it's a really important part of the puzzle. And, and with social media and the fact that we're often using a lot of UGC content now actually, just coming back to what does your brand stand for, what are those distinctive brand assets is really helpful.

Speaker B: It strikes me that there's kind of like, there's the easy side of that. Always use the same logo, always use the same colors, always use the same fonts. Yeah, and then there's the really, really difficult part, which is the blurring bit, as you mentioned, which is, you know, you see an advert in a magazine, on the TV where, you know, on your phone, wherever it is, and you're like, oh, I know, I know who that is, I know which car brand that is. I know what it is when there's nothing actually of the brand in that shot. And that's, it's really tough to do, isn't it?

Speaker A: It's really tough to do. And so many brands can fall into the trap of almost, uh, uplifting their category. So, you know, if you take a, ah, homeware brand, it can often look like three other competitors. So a really good starting point is just to look at your ads compared to your peer set and think, how distinctive are we in that? In amongst that, what could we add in that makes us, you know, more distinctive and give us that brand, you know, kind of image that we want to kind of refer to. But the main point is it helps with recall. And there's definitely a kind of tendency, if you're a new CMO or a new marketing director that's coming into the mix to feel like they need to refresh and put their stamp on things. But actually some of those brand assets, you know, particularly with those brands that I mentioned, have been consistent for a number of years and seeing that longevity as part of your investment in your brand communication is really important.

Speaker B: I was about to take us off on a really random tangent into the world of fairy and I think their new advert with different colors. But we're not going to go there, everybody. We're going to stick to see Amy has, Amy's going, don't get that, Chloe. So we're going to stick to the three creative pillars. So we've done the first pillar, which is the how to be recognizable. Number two is relevance. So how do we make sure we're relevant?

Speaker A: So relevant is something that, again, it goes back to trying to understand your audience and how is your brand memorable for them. And often we can get really into the detail of a product without really thinking about how that audience is using that product or why they're buying it and what is the relevance to their buying moment. We're doing some really interesting research at the moment as a team, looking into review mining. So really understanding how users are reviewing a client's experience and using the terminology that's been used as part of that research in the ad. So, you know, if there's a great proof point that's actually not been seen as a point of distinction by the product manager suddenly gets elevated and we're using it in the advertising as a point of reference. Um, so it's trying again, not thinking about the category overall, but thinking about your area of opportunity, what could be the competitive advantage? And it's so hard for brands these days. To be really differentiated, you know, and you can be distinctive within your category. So thinking about what are the nuances of your brand. And um, got a lovely brand that you mentioned at the start, Weird fish who. When we were doing some research, we looked at their dresses as a category. It's a really popular area for them. And one of the pieces of information that we pulled out is that women like pockets on dresses. And as a result of adding that detail into the messaging for their ad creative, it really drove the product performance and effectiveness for them. So it's just thinking about how you can make it relevant to your audience, what are some of the terms that people are using and really bringing it back to making it personal to you and your brands and not, not generic.

Speaker B: I mean it's, it's quite fascinating that as you said, it's become harder to stand out in a category. But at the same time, it's never been easier to understand what your customers think and say when they're being your customers. 20 years ago you had to do customer panels, you know, and get them all into the same room and ask them questions. Nobody's being normal when they're in that room. You can learn a lot, but they're not being normal. But if you can grab their review content, their social media content, their customer services content, that's just sitting there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, or even run a, you know, run a questionnaire survey with some open text boxes in it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You can have so much data at your fingertips and now we have AI who can mine it for us.

Speaker A: Exactly that.

Speaker B: Yeah. It has to be one of the easiest things you can do with AI to improve your marketing at the moment. I reckon.

Speaker A: Yeah. And we really, uh, you know, we're using that and it's informing product development. So it's not even, you know, it goes beyond. Well, it has so many different opportunities. You know, it's product development, but it's also customer services in terms of thinking about what the sentiments are in terms of reviews. And yeah, it's a really useful piece of information that you can get your hands on really easily. And like you say with AI, then there's a. So many ways of being able to extract meaning from it.

Speaker B: So yeah, it also feels like with this relevance piece, we've both got the, the nitty gritty, like the dresses with pockets, you know, like it's a one liner. We can just add it into everything. It'll be great. But there's also that bigger picture of how the customers feel about us and the way they Talk about us. The more subtle stuff again, a bit like the um, difference between the typography and the overall look. There's like the easy wins, but then there's the bigger piece as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think with relevance, it's thinking about your niche within that category. So, you know, for instance, our, ah, the brand we work with, green people, they operate in the skincare category, but they're really focusing on sensitivity and how you can be comfortable in your own skin. And it's thinking about that element of it, trying to drill down into what makes you different to your competition and your peer set. What can you own? There's a category entry point for you and yeah, that in itself gives you a positioning. Um, so, yeah, and then of course

Speaker B: you can build that positioning around how your customers talk about it, not, uh, how you talk about it, which is where the real power starts to come in, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah. And just that language is, you know, we resonate, we can recall a brand when we connect with it and as humans we don't want corporate speak and we certainly don't want AI slop. Um, so if we can take that kind of, you know, real language, real terminology at a really local level, then, you know, it's going to put a smile on your face or you will feel something emotive because it's, it's you're replaying, you're mirroring what your audience is already saying about you.

Speaker B: Given we started talking about emotions, I reckon we should probably move on to pillar three, which is all about the emotional reward. So tell us about this one, Amy.

Speaker A: So as we started, I was talking about that attention recession that we are in. And the latest kind of figures from Meta is that we engage 1.7 seconds in content on Meta, uh, platform on average. So to try and get, um, somebody to stop scrolling and hook them in quickly, we have to be pretty on it and be able to communicate, um, effectively. And the other kind of side of that is then retaining them for the entire duration of the ad. Now you're kind of like if you're losing a lot of people in those first two seconds, trying to get them to the full 15 is a real ask. And to do that there has to be a level of reward. Um, we get bored and we'll move on very quickly. Whereas if we think emotionally about the content that we're sharing and what's the story behind it, then you're much more likely to stick around for the full, full ad. So, and emotion can come in lots of forms it can be, you know, pulling on the heartstrings, but it can also be adding some joy when we all need it right now, putting a smile on people's faces. And again, there's lots of research that shows if you combine the distinctive brand assets with a positive entertainment or a positive emotion from your advertising, you're seven times more likely to see incremental revenue as a result of it. So there's real growth numbers behind it. Again, it just means that we deepen our connection with your brand and we are likely to lay that down to, ah, a brand memory that we can easily recall. Um, so yeah, we're all human and we like, like entertained and um, corporate ads don't cut it.

Speaker B: I do find it fascinating how Microsoft M with their copilot have started doing adverts to do with what to wear on your date to the coffee shop. It's like so unmicrosoft. Just kind of like, I get why, you know, pull that emotion out of it, but it's kind of like I'm not, not entirely sure this fully stacks up across the three pillars. So um, Amy, we're talking about these, these bigger picture brand elements which, yeah, we can, you know, we can run two meta ads, one with, with, with one which follows the three pillars, one which doesn't see which one performs, et cetera, et cetera. But often people are kind of beyond that. Everyone thinks all this, oh, it's a bit fluffy, all this brand stuff. I'll never know if it's working. Why should I invest? How are you tackling that? You know, because you work for a performance marketing agency. Data is all, numbers are all. So, so how do you tackle that?

Speaker A: Yeah, one of my biggest bugbears is when they get referred to as the coloring department. Oh my God. If you're, if you're client side and in marketing, that is just, I think brand probably didn't do a very good job at branding itself for a number of years. It was kind of seen as fluffy and we talk about, you know, reach and awareness and it was all a bit ethereal. But the, the real kind of nuts and bolts of it is that now we can really track through. So whereas once before we were probably talking about reach and awareness as a standalone piece, now we're connecting performance as part of that. So when we see an uplift in social spend in that kind of awareness level, what does that, how is that tracking down to the bottom of the funnel? What are we seeing in terms of engagement? And there's some real kind of Specifics around brand search volume, for instance, goes up when you start investing in your brand awareness. Also just your direct traffic, your organic traffic has this kind of, you know, afterglow effect of um, of investment in brand. So it doesn't have to be fluffy. And actually there's again, there's a lot of research being done about when you combine the brand element with performance that you can see upwards of 90% return on investment as a result of it. So there's, there's some real science behind it now in terms of the data. But one of the things that we're really encouraging clients to do because we've seen a lot of them having a bottom uh, of the funnel centric media strategy, uh, where they're spending a lot on Google search and shopping predominantly is to take them on a bit of a journey. We're not expecting them to overnight suddenly go, right, you need to spend 40 to 60% in your upper funnel. It's not realistic and you're finance director that we would get. So what we're doing is setting up, you know, real tests. Um, and one of the key ones that we're using is geo holdout tests where we land an investment uplift across three different territories, let's say, or, you know, a number of territories across a market. So let's take the UK and then you compare it and see what the impact it has had on all those different touch points that I mentioned. And then you're then able to scale and roll out and it just means that it's kind of done in this very test and scale approach, as opposed to just kind of taking um, a kind of complete pivot in terms of strategy. And the other thing that we're kind of encouraging clients to do is also put a minimum of 10% of your media spend into experimentation. So if you are introducing a new platform, you, you know, like Pinterest or Reddit, that we can introduce it, see what the impact is of having that over time and what, what's the overall uplift going to be. And that just again is an increasing way to uh, connect the kind of full funnel and see what the measurable impact is at the bottom.

Speaker B: I love that, uh, advice about having a, you know, percentage of your budget that is dedicated to testing because it's with, especially with the online channels, it's so easy to put $100 on it and go, it doesn't work. You know, it's like, no, you have to test it properly or never. Especially as, you know, things become more complicated as we've just been talking about you've got to do things properly, not just chuck a hundred dollars at it. You need that budget to a, uh, decent budget to actually see is this going to work.

Speaker A: Yeah. And time, you know, I think there's definitely a sense that we want kind of quick gratification and, and actually there, you know, the test that we're running, we are seeing that, you know, that brand obviously has an afterglow effect bey you, when you turn the tap off on Google, you see that, you know, you'd obviously see it instantly. Whereas when you kind of turn the tap off on brand, it has this wonderful afterglow of a good six to eight weeks after it. So I think understanding that and giving it the time to really prove its worth is important. You know, we wouldn't do a GEO holdout test that anything less than two to three months because we need to see that kind of full kind of journey. But yeah, it needs to be of a level of, um, spend that you can see the impact.

Speaker B: Right, Amy, that's been brilliant. Picking your brains about the three pillars of creative to beat the attention recession. Listeners, you are going to want to stay tuned right to the end because I think we can all tell that Amy's insider tips are going to be well worth sticking around for. And then you'll also get my own suggestions at the very end of the episode about things to help you improve things even further in your business. Did your roas used to be great? Do you find that now you're spending more and getting less? Have you squeezed every last drop from the bottom of the funnel? Every time you try to scale, your ROI falls off a cliff. That's the performance plateau and you won't break through it by doing more of the same. The brands that are growing right now are building demand, not just capturing it, and that changes everything. The experts at Launch have built a free tool to help you see exactly where you're stuck. The seven Levers of Growth Scorecard takes five minutes and gives you a clear benchmark to help you unlock, uh, growth. Stop guessing, start growing. Take the scorecard@, uh, keepopt.com launch that's L A U N C dash and see what's really going on. Okay, Amy, so far we've gone deep into the three pillars of creative to beat the attention recession. Now you get to wow us with your insider knowledge about the whole world of growth. Just slightly challenging, but there we go. Uh, so for the following questions, your answer can be anything to do with growth, which of course does include everything we've already been talking about. Amy, are you ready for this?

Speaker A: Yes, I'm trying.

Speaker B: Let's start with newbie advice. If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?

Speaker A: I think for me it kind of goes back to really looking at doing a bit of an audit, you know, understanding where you sit alongside your peer set and also what the category is, um, really pushing at that moment. So doing an audit of your creative and, you know, there's a really good easy way of doing that, which is just going to like, you know, the Facebook ads library, doing a pull on all your competitor set and seeing if you were to remove your logo from your creative, what does it look like, how can we make it more distinctive? And whether you're uplifting the category and you're very kind of sameness, um, with other brands, or are you actually being distinctive and setting yourself out from the rest? So I would definitely start there and the other point would be just thinking about demand. So we often get very excited when a, uh, when a brand is growing, but thinking, are you outpacing the category, Are you growing alongside the demand, or are you actually bucking the trends and stealing share from some of your competitors? So that would be another area to look at.

Speaker B: Nice, easy and straightforward ways to get started there, everybody. Now, once you've started, of course you've got to keep optimizing. So what's your favorite way to improve performance?

Speaker A: So this goes back to experimentation. We've got to be looking at constantly testing and having a really rigorous testing framework that's data driven. So, you know, I think it's fine to be able to do tests, um, on an ad hoc basis, but really for it to kind of, you know, move the needle in terms of your growth, then it's about really defining what that testing framework looks like, what's your hypothesis, what do you want to learn, what are we trying to get out of it and measuring it on an ongoing basis. And to do that, we kind of recommend a minimum of one to two tests a month and really seeing that growth over time so that you can kind of hone that creative and make it work harder.

Speaker B: Excellent. Now, if someone listening wants to learn more, is there a cheap or free resource you would recommend?

Speaker A: Obviously come to our website. So, uh, we've got LaunchOnline, uh.co.uk we've got some fantastic resources there. So CMO's Guide to Growth is, um, something that we've developed and the seven levers. And there's lots of information there that, that will get you started and help you. I also mentioned the Creative Dividend report and I really would encourage people, if they are really interested in understanding creative and creative effectiveness and how it, how it drives growth. Um, there's a brilliant report that's been put together by System One and effie, which I would really encourage people to look at.

Speaker B: Nice. We'll make sure links to all of that are in the show. Notes, everybody. And finally, Amy, it's crystal ball time. What's coming up in the next six to 12 months that we should be getting ready for

Speaker A: AI? I mean, how. It kind of would go without saying, but, um, I mean, I don't think we have to get ready, it's already here. But the point is, when it comes to AI, is that the pace of change in terms of creative is really significant. And when it comes to being distinctive and standing out and being human focused, not leaning into AI as much, um, is probably a good thing. Um, there will be a lot of brands that use it to scale their creative quickly and it's just making sure that at the heart of it is prompted by a human need and you really consider those, um, kind of points of research that we mentioned and make it truly relevant to your brand. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, so true. Um, Amy, we are very nearly at the end of the show, so could you please let the listeners know where they can get in contact with you and the team at launch if they want some help?

Speaker A: Yeah, of course. So we're at launchonline.co.uk. we're also very active on LinkedIn, so come and follow us. There we go. Do regular LinkedIn lives, um, with lots of different speakers. Um, but yeah, we'd love to hear from you. If you're a brand that's looking to grow and really, um, needs some help in terms of understanding that performance growth, um, then we'd be great to get in touch.

Speaker B: Marvellous. Amy, thank you so much for coming on and giving us such a practical guide to what I think a lot of people find a really difficult thing to get their heads around. So we really appreciate you drilling it down to such straightforward steps. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker A: Thank you, Chloe. It's been great.

Speaker B: A, uh, pleasure to chat with Amy there and to go through, as I said a few seconds ago, to go through what is a really difficult thing to get your head around in such a straightforward and practical way. Make sure your brand is recognizable across everything and everywhere. That's as everything from the typography, the colors, the fonts, etc. Through to that feel. That's the slightly more difficult bit. But Amy did wrap up in the in the insider tips with a very cool tip for making that a bit easier. Then relevant are, ah, you using the voice of the customer to put it overly simplistically. Uh, lots of tips around that we just went through. And then the emotional reward element, the real to call it the icing on the cake is really too, too cheap a message. It has far more value than that. It's, it's the cake, really. It's the cake under the icing and the cherry. But the emotional reward part will really pay dividends when you get it working for you. You can get the links to everything we discussed, the full transcript of the episode, our notes and more@keepoptimizing.com you could also use our Special Director episode short links. Just put keepopt.com forward, slash the number of this episode into the URL bar and you'll go straight to the right page on the site when you get there. You could also add yourself to the Chloe Thomas Newsletter email list, which means you won't miss out on any of the other great things I share to help you grow your business. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Optimizing Podcast. You've enjoyed this episode and want to continue learning about growth right now. Then you'll need to go to the website because this is the first in our growth series. But on the site we've pulled together a handful of previous episodes that really fit this mini series goals. So there is a couple of episodes for you to dive in, but you'll need to go ahead to the website to find out what those are. So use the short link keepopt.comgrowth to get there. And please do tell your fellow marketers about the show because over, uh, this and the next five episodes we are helping you work out how to grow your business in 2026. How to grow in the New World Order. And I want to help as many marketers as possible to get their heads around all of this and improve the performance of their e commerce marketing. So please spread the word and have a great week. Make sure you listen to the next episode though, so I can help you to keep optimizing your marketing.

Speaker A: Access everything.

Speaker B: Keep optimizing@keepoptimizing.com that's with an S not a Z. Take the seven Levers of Growth Scorecard now at uh, keepopt. Com launch. That's l a u n c h and see what's really going on with your growth.