S2 E11: Fearlessness with Dominic McGregor

Speaker A: Honey, I blew up the business. Today's podcast is epic. We have one of two of the most iconic young entrepreneurs of this generation. These guys are poster boys for modern entrepreneurship. Dominic McGregor. My guest today is the business partner or previous business partner of Steven Bartlett, the chap who's on Dragon's Den and the number one podcast in the uk. And those two started their company Social chain back in 2014, 2014, when they were aged about 20 and they went on some rocket ship ride, uh, like literally going Viral. And by 2019, when Social Chain went public for $200 million valuation with 750 staff, they exited the business. So these guys have been like I say, all, uh, on an experience I can't even imagine from the age of 19 when, uh, Dominic sets up his Twitter page, which then became the spark which ignited Social Chain. That's what we get into today. Like, what happened and how was the impact on him? Well, he was almost. This loneliness was a feature of this very, very early on. And he's been on a sort of hyperspeed evolution which often, maybe people don't get to until they're in their 50s. A very rich conversation. We get right into it, including coping with ups and downs and people slagging you off in the press and negative things happening or how do you handle all that? How do you handle your emotional state? Dominic's, uh, an incredibly open chat. We get really into it and I'm, um, super proud to be able to share this with you because my mission is to help you learn from entrepreneurs like myself. I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a podcaster on the side, I run a business full time. And Dominic, who's a very inspiring character because, uh, if you listen to these stories of the ups and the downs and learn from the dark side of entrepreneurship that will help you achieve what you're trying to do, the impact, the positive impact you're trying to make in the world. So our mission is to help you. So if you like my mission, please help me reciprocate, join the community, be part of what's going on. Um, give us a five star review on Apple Podcasts and a five star review on Spotify. Go on and share it on social media and recommend us to all your friends. Please do. Because I do want to help people and your help helps me. Before I go, I just want to big up my company, the tech department, the one that I blew up, the one that we turned around, it's doing better than ever now, so good, um, for us and we're able to sponsor this podcast, so please shout out to my, uh, day job. Let's get into this interview. It's bloody brilliant. Welcome to the podcast. We've got Dominic McGregor in the house. Nice to see you.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me. Good to catch up after all this time as well.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, we met five years ago. It turns out I did the math as I was coming into this interview. Ah. As I was, um, I created and co, uh, co created, founded a mental health event, a festival in London called Get Ahead Festival, which is the world's first 24 hour festival of the head. And it was all about burnout and mental health. And we met through your interest in that, and that's something perhaps we'll be getting into today. And so we had a cup of coffee and then you graciously gave us and shared your story, which I just found out was one of the first times you'd shared that story.

Speaker B: Yep, it was. Yeah, it was, um, five years ago, so I'd have been two years in sobriety and it was that kind of period of time when I was first open, like openly competent enough to talk about it really. And, um, when you kind of said, yeah, what you're planning to do, get Ahead, I was like, this is a really good, um, platform for me and kind of most importantly, an audience of people who are ready to hear what I had to say. Um, I think when you do a lot of talking, you know, you can walk into rooms who aren't expecting you to be as open and honest. But I think what you put together, there was a group of people, um, who were ready to hear difficult conversations and hear stories of people who were going to express their vulnerability. And I think that's what I was able to do. So, you know, I've got to say thank you for allowing me to do that.

Speaker A: Uh, listen, I totally. It was, um, I think if the spirit of this podcast, by the way, is that it's like people who are ready to listen to those open hearted, vulnerable, real conversations. And so I'm sort of carrying that spirit on, but Get Ahead Festival going, so please check it out. Uh, run by the awesome Jenny Cochrane. And so we kind of got into it. We'll get into that story. Perhaps there's some. This is the dark side of entrepreneurship that people don't talk about all that stuff. That's a bit shit. And we don't like, you know, doesn't go into the press release and, and. But that's the ethos, I think, of the lot of life and you, you know, whether it's life, business, professional, personal, it's just all this stuff is mashed up together and we have these sort of ups and downs and the flow and what we're going to get into various topics today. But I was curious, a little quote I read, uh, you said about your current venture. So you famously made your name with SocialChain, but you have a new venture called Fearless Adventures, which I love the name of. I love a bit of Fearless Adventures. But you said entrepreneurs are very lonely. And when you grow a business to a point where you have a bit of traction, who do you turn to? And I thought, well, when did you discover that entrepreneurs are lonely?

Speaker B: Good question. Um, I think, you know, part of my experience running a business at the age starting the age of 19, you know, firstly, you don't have any kind of other experience to reference it against. You know, my experience was university life and it was school life. You know, I was a year out of A levels. And you look back and go, that's bloody young. So, um, for me, it became life. And I think as you kind of scaled it and the sacrifices you make, you. You got so accustomed to it, and then you take a step back and you realize, God, you know, during that period, I was incredibly lonely and didn't have anyone to talk to about what I was going through and, um, didn't know where to turn to for help, you know, in my personal life. And I think that was, uh, you know, when we look at what loneliness is, you know, feeling isolated, you know, feeling unable to talk to people, you know, in a sense that, uh, I could walk into a room full of people but still feel incredibly lonely. I'm surrounded by individuals, you know, completely. But the loneliness came from not having anyone to kind of open to, open to and speak to about what was actually going on in my life. And I think, you know, when you're in your early 20s and you've got this kind of like, juggernaut of a business in front of you, and your problems are completely different to your peers, that's how that actually makes you feel more lonely than anything else because you don't feel anyone can stand you, um, even trying to speak to, you know, significant others, it just doesn't, doesn't feel like you're actually getting the, the support you need as an individual. So when I first started feeling lonely, it was probably those early 20s, you know, I'm taking a different path to other people. My friends at university, you know, they're all able to sacrifice nights out and go and have fun and do all these kind of things. And for me it was. Wasn't an option, uh, because of, you know, other priorities in my life. So loneliness came as a feeling within me rather than it being like, oh my God, I'm sat in a dark room every single day. That, you know, that that wasn't the loneliness I was experiencing. It was kind of really real emotional and alone. You were with people. But, uh, you never felt like you understood my life.

Speaker A: So you've got. Of you embark exists. It is young that, isn't it? It's like my, my eldest daughter is now 19. And it's funny to think you get on this track. Funny. It's amazing. You get on this track and suddenly you're on this track and you're kind of swept away with it. And I know this feeling. But just when you're in the hot seat and everything does come back to you and you just, um. It's an, it is an isolating feeling because all the, the buck stops with you. But you're young and you're like, you say your peers are doing their thing and that's that whole kind of, you know, carefree living at university thing. And you've had that. So you've taken a choice, perhaps intuitively at some point, like, I'm going to do this thing and then, yeah, then it's taking you down a path. So, so what, what was going on through your mind?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's difficult because sometimes I think it was a choice. Sometimes I think it was just, um, it was just a go, you know, it wasn't, you know, uh, we're fearless. I've sat out and m. Planned, um, it, I've, you know, I've designed the branding, I've designed a model, I've kind of built a team. You know, that, that was, that was a, that was a plan. Now, that was a choice with what we were doing. Social chain. At times it didn't feel like a choice. It felt like, you know, we're having fun, we're doing stuff, but this was just life. And it was just like, it was incredible. And we were just doing this, this different thing, um, which was, you know, alternative to university. But it never actually felt like, you know, there was a master plan. We sat out there, we, we, we kind of saw a gap in the market. So I think that that was part of the problem is that we didn't actually know what we're going to sell into. Um, so when you kind of have the expectations versus reality debate, where your expectations at first, you know, you get to travel the world, which we were doing. You get to have a, you know, great quality of life versus the reality of actually scaling the company, which, you know, for anyone to do is incredibly difficult. But then you, you layer on age and maturity, naivety, all these kind of things which come into it makes it more difficult. You know, I always say, you know, the, the. The second time around, it's like playing the Sims with the cheat codes on because you know exactly what to do. You know the world, you know the levers, you know, everything. So, um, from my perspective, it was. Yeah, it felt like we were just doing something and it was never like a genuinely, like a choice. It was just we were doing something we kind of enjoyed and that pivoting, that pivoted into a life. You know, I compare it, you know, you compare it to people, you know, in the. Maybe in the music industry or in this. In the sports scene, where, you know, overnight things just start to change for them and they suddenly can't handle this because what they were doing, you know, in front of 20 people one weekend turns to 20,000 people next weekend. It's like, oh, my God, my mind's blown a little bit. So, um, yeah, that's what, that's what it felt like. So it was kind of a real, um, uh, discovery of breaking down kind of all the expectations and realities and facing the realities as they came and, you know, actually stepping into real life rather than something where we started doing just for a little bit of fun.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny. It's almost like this kind of. You hit on this flow state, like you just pursued your. The energy, the intuition, the sort of. You follow your nose and this thing sort of happened. Like you say, it's quite a good analogy with the pop star. Pop star success in a stadium. Suddenly, like, how to. By the end of that happen. So you've got your. You perhaps didn't even have any expectations or your expectations were very, very low resolution and, you know, travel and money perhaps, and excitement and adventure. So when did the sort of reality kick in? Was there a specific moment where you

Speaker B: thought, hang on, uh, yeah, I think there's expectations when you're 19 of what you want to do is very limited. You know, you want to be able to, um, go out. You want to be able to go and buy drinks. You want to be able to, you know, have fun. You want to be able to, like, have frictionless in life. And, um, your expectations of what, what success looks like much, much Lower down than m. What they could be. Um, so I think the tipping point comes when, um, you're not responsible for yourself anymore. You know, you start seeing other people in the business buying cars, getting houses, getting married, having kids. And like, you break it down like ultimately that they've got their mortgage based on the job you've got them got them for, then you've got to keep the company afloat to be able to pay for their mortgages. So it's when you layer on that responsibility of other people in their lives. And um, you know, as a founder you are. People are dependent on you, you know, from keeping the lights on in the early stages when you're fundraising, but also to materialize that in the future with actually creating some valuable. So that was kind of the transition is that, you know, every single time we hired someone, it was me. It wasn't like, yeah, we've got another person. It was more about like, God, this is my responsibility. This is like more people we've got to be accountable for. We've got to make sure that they got their career plans. And I think when, you know, I feel very good to look after myself, you know, I'm m. I know if you strip everything away from me in my life, I'm going to be absolutely fine tomorrow. However, I don't have that feeling around other people, you know, because they are not me and I can't understand how they would respond to that. So I think it was that, uh, when you start to layer on other people's, other people's, um, other people's lives and being responsible for them, where you start to go, oh my God, this actually, this is real now. This is cat. This is, this isn't just fun and games. This is, this is life. And this is people's making big decisions in their own lives about, uh, about because. Because of your company. So that was the kind of tipping point, you know. And as I say, you get to 20 people, you get to 30, 40 people, you're like, oh my God, there's a lot of people here who kind of dependent on what we're doing here. Mhm. Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, so you and this growing up phrase, I suppose there's a moment of growing up, other people are depending on you and they've got other people depending on them and you're this student with a fun idea, looking to have a good time and suddenly it's real and got some depth to it and some, you know, real consequence to the decision, to the decisions you're taking, to everything you're sort of looking at going forward. So, and so what you have obviously a kind of sense of duty to your team, in a sense of. You called it love and a sense of responsibility. And that again was. So you set the company up as on circa 19, 20 years old, and it grew very quickly and you've got to about 20, 30, 40 people. And what sort of year was that, do you think? When did that happen?

Speaker B: That would have been 2015. So, yeah, that would have been, um, 2014. 2015 kind of start. Start of 2015 was when we, uh, took our kind of first sneak an investment in about a million. Um, that was kind of when, yeah, things went from being like, yeah, this is all fun. But also that was partly down to the social media space as well, because we were playing into it, which was very naive. Uh, when we first had to speak to brand about social media, the reaction was we don't have any budget for it. Imagine going to speak to a brand now who's got no budget for social media. I don't think there'd be any brand that hasn't operated in that space. So, um, for us, it was kind of. The sector was growing. We saw the opportunity. The opportunity started to become bigger than we imagined. Um, and that was whole part of the kind of flywheel effect is that, you know, we were doing something at first which was fun and kind of niche, but then actually very, very quickly, you know, we can all sit there and talk about the rise of Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and YouTube very quickly became mainstream. And, um, we were navigating ourselves, our own business, but also the sector. And the sector kind of dragged us, um, up, I guess. You know, we grew naturally because of the growth of the sector. You know, it's not like we were fighting in a, in an industry which was, you know, established. It was a kind of new space. So everything was new for a lot of people. You know, it was new for the brands, it was new for us. We're in a company was new. Um, so obviously in that situation, a lot of mistakes are made and, um, uh, we have to constantly kind of keep at the front of that because that's what we want it to be. We want it to be the social media company in the UK. Um, so, yeah, around that time, 2014, 2015, when social media started to become, you know, people start to realize actually it's here to stay. Rather than it being a fly on the wall, like, you know, the bebos in MySpace, the friends reunited in the world, it actually we've Got platforms here which people are actually sticking with. We're using, they're growing. Um, and it's where news and conversations are happening.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's less than 10 years ago.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's mad.

Speaker A: It's not less than 10 years ago. People didn't have a budget line for social media.

Speaker B: Yep. Uh, 10 years ago. I remember speaking to a Big FMC, Big FMC brand about Instagram and said, no, we're not going to get on it. And now they've got tens of millions of followers.

Speaker A: So you were 19, 20 years old. Uh, you're in the right time, generationally, to ride that wave. You've obviously got the smarts, the know how, the wherewithal to have created it was a Twitter account called Student Problem. You kind of set the wherewithal to set up a company and leave university and actually get in the game. You're actually working. And then you talk about the flywheel effect. So I've got this visualization of you in your mind. You are attached to the flywheel and you're spinning around and around a load of money in the damn thing. It's really faster. And then suddenly the bloody exponential growth of social media suddenly all kicks off and everyone takes it seriously. And you're on this flywheel. It's whizzing around. And part of the problem of this is one of the issues that I picked up in the Get Ahead Festival thing was the modern life is this exponential growth curve. It's only getting steeper. Human beings don't scale exponentially. So this sort of 20, 14, 15 period, then it sort of seems like your sense of duty and sense of responsibility was being mapped onto an exponential growth curve which humans can't, sort of literally can't cope with energetically. And you are in this. You're a young guy in this position with all this responsibility, and you care about the kind of how it's executed, how it's implemented, and what was, again, like at that moment in time? I know things got quite dark for you around about that time. Could you kind of like, just explain all those different forces that was roiling around at that time? You were on this flywheel. The flywheel is getting faster and bigger. What was. What was your world like? What was your psyche like?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think what was interesting for us is the. The key was not letting the flywheel run you. Um, but you control the flywheel. I think that was one of the big things for us is that we felt that, um, I definitely felt like the flywheel was Controlling me, um, which was something I had to get around, um, and be more in control of that. So what that kind of means directly is my big problem was drinking. You know, I had no way of dealing with what was going on around me. No coping mechanisms, no kind of emotional intelligence to be like, okay, actually, you know, this is how I should do with my problems. So I was turning to alcohol as kind of medic, medic, medic, medic to medicate. You know, that was my medicine. And, um, that becomes deep and dark because, you know, you start using alcohol in a way that mirrors your emotions. When you have the highs, you drink and celebrate. When you have the lows, you drink, commiserate. And I always talk about the fact that no, uh, matter how good something gets with drinking doesn't get any better. So it's not like you're going to win a big contract and then you're going to go out and get drunk, win another one. It doesn't work like that. But when you, when you drink with the downs, things can get worse. So you can actually make your problems worse by drinking. That could be energy, could be health, could be relationships. You could do something stupid, could be anything. So actually, when you're drinking for the highs, it can't any better. It can't. It's not like you're going to get anything else from it. When you're in the lows, though, when you drink, you can actually make you make the situation worse. So that's what I was doing. You know, I was using alcohol in the highs or using alcohol in the lows. And actually I was actually adding to my problems. When I was drinking in bad situations, I was making mistakes personally. I was like, no, I was making mistakes professionally. And those things were kind of snowballing a little bit. And that's why people call it downhill spiral, because you don't hear of uphill spirals. It's not like you have some shots and everything, but downhill you get worse and worse and worse and worse. And that what was happening to me. So it was a lack of intelligence to be able to understand that this isn't good for me, um, and that I was actually using it to try and solve my problems, um, in life and in professionalism. So, uh, yeah, you know, over a period of time, I think it was probably about six months where things got darker and darker. I was then, you know, medicating more and more and more. And I think the, the thing about alcohol is the more you drink, um, the more numb you feel. So the More problems you have, the more you drink. So you actually get into these states of complete paralytic aspects where, you know, you are numb emotionally, but you're also. Then the stupid stuff, you know, no one, you don't do sensible things when you're drunk, you know, messages to people, conversations with people. You say things which go out, which can be out, which can be construed. And that's what I was doing. And that's how I, you know, I was trying to deal with my, um, problems that I was having from running the company. And these are probably. These are life problems, you know. And I think for me it was. Everything was. It kind of accelerated from such a young age where, um, the problems were, you know, from a professional sense were huge and personal sense. I was still figuring out who I was as a person, um, because I've given so much to the business that I never actually sat and thought, you know, about myself. Um, and then you, as I say, you mix in the alcohol and then it can only head one way.

Speaker A: So at a time you said that there was some, the emotional state you were trying to manage. What were the emotions?

Speaker B: Um, I think the difficult part was I didn't know. So, you know, we all have those kind of situations of self diagnosis, you know, especially when younger. Like, you know, am I happy, am I enjoying this? You know, why haven't I got an ex girlfriend? You know, what's going on here? Um, and, um, for me, the biggest problem was that kind of self diagnosis. It was like, you know, I don't think anything's wrong or nothing is wrong. So, um, I've, uh, then just, you know, become habitual where drinking would be just part of my life. Um, I didn't think it was a problem, to be honest, until, um, I started to look back at some things I did. So those problems would be, you know, it wasn't until I sat down with a therapist and talked through what I was feeling and how I was acting that they kind of started to diagnose what was going on with me. And, uh, you know, it was, um, the first time that I'd ever heard of things like imposter syndrome. First time I'd ever, um, correlated anxiety with myself. You know, I did sports science when I was younger and I talked about, uh, arousal levels and anxiety levels and how that kind of impact on performance. And obviously, you know, anxiety can be positive for performance. You know, having a base level of anxiety can actually be motivating. But what I was doing was getting to the kind of detrimental Part where it would just fall off a cliff, where it's actually, you see, so anxious, actually make performance worse. Um, so it's the first time that, you know, someone actually linked these things that I was going through and put. And actually gave me a diagnosis. This is what's happening. And the key thing that someone said to me is that, you know, your problem isn't drinking, your problems, everything else, but what's happening is because you drink and you're not able to deal with your problems. And that for me was a really powerful piece because it broke the link in my mind between um, my problems and alcohol. And it made it very clear if I want to solve my problems, I need to start drinking. So, um, it gave me the. What. What going sober gave me was the ability to have clarity in mind, to be able to address things that are going on in life. So I became this machine. You know, I still had anxiety because the problems were still there. But actually I wasn't actually that detrimental part where it was impacting performance. I was actually a very good arousal level where I would just get through it. And I was like, the only way I can solve my anxiety is to get through these problems and do this and solve this and sort that and solve this and sort that. So like, for a period of like a year, I just came like, you know, what I'd call like an ultra, a high performer because I just started to address all the things that was going on in my life.

Speaker A: So what was the moment? You. Why did you end up going to the therapist?

Speaker B: You know, the. On the downhill spiral, you've got some point, some point you're going to come crashing and there's going to be a, um, something. Some things you do, which are the wake up call, you know. And for me, like I was like caught. I would, I'd say I was gotten some personal pain. So there was definitely personal pain in what I was doing. You know, um, drinking so much that you've been sick, you know, breaking my ankle one day, you know, I could, I could. I was almost statistic I could hurt myself. And actually I was getting a bit of pleasure from that. But as you probably tell from what I was talking about previously, you know, my emotions towards other people very strong and very empathetic. So when I started to hurt other people, that for me was kind of like, this isn't who I am as a person. You know, that's not how I want to. That's not how I come across. That's not anything sober Don would ever do. And what, what we almost had was these two people. We had Dom, we had drunk Dom, and drunk Dom was becoming not a nice person, um, because he was damaging and upsetting and insulting people. And that's not who I am. And that wasn't never who I was sober. Um, so I became this kind of really Jack on high kind of mindset. So, um, it was then, you know, when I seen that I upset other people significantly, that I knew I need to do something about it. And, um, it was people sitting me down and saying, actually what you've done is, is not, it's not right. You know, you shouldn't, you know, this isn't you. This was something you'd never do. There's some problem here. And we, you know, we're all young, you know, we're all 20 years, 20, 23 years old. We don't know, you know, we're not, we're not, we're not informed that say, actually this is the problem. But we just knew something was wrong. And when he's going to speak to someone and someone needs to go and speak to one about it who can kind of help because you're not acting as, as you were as a person. Um, so that was the kind of wake up call. It's when I started to see myself damaging friendships, upsetting people, um, and causing problems in other people's lives that, you know, for me the alcohol was, was, um, a problem. Yeah.

Speaker A: So you got this such an intense period, 2014 through 16, where this rocket ship takes off and you're fueling it with your, the alcohol thing and you get these. It's suddenly the sort of, you kind of the sort of bashing and scraping as it was through life. And you had this realization and were able to give it some sort of framework. So what did you learn from that? I mean, you got a framework. I mean, so you had, then you had this like, amazing productive year. So what do you learn that allowed you to kind of channel that, that dark energy?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think the first part was, you know, the process of change, how change happens, um, within a person. So. And you know, I big believer in the kind of cycle of change and how you can actually, you know, people talk about people and change, you know, and disagree that, because I'm a case in point for that. Um, but you have to be conscious enough to know how that, how change occurs. Um, so, you know, firstly is identification of problem, you know, knowing that I've got a problem, um, in myself. Secondly is admitting that problem, you know, You've got to be able to hold down and say, I've got a problem. Three, uh, is taking steps to mitigate. You know, how can you actually start taking some kind of meaningful steps? And then four is maintenance, um, you know, maintaining the changes you made and actually, you know, having that in, in part. And the reason it's called a cycle, um, is because a lot of people during this process, they go back to the start because they relapse, you know. So for me, it was always a case about, you know, you don't actually want to complete, um, that learning circle. So I haven't. So sometimes, you know, when I first started thinking about it, having a problem, I was like, okay, I'm not going to drink wine because wine's a problem. I'm just going to drink gin. So that's like the start of the process where you mitigate and then you can maintain. You have one good night, um, on, on gym without wine, and then next night is terrible. So then you're back to the start. So I knew that, you know, I had to kind of, you know, realize what my cycle is and the cycle and the changes I need to make have to be completely sober. So that was kind of a real learning curve. So then you get to the point where you kind of maintain it. Okay, you're maintaining that, uh, uh, those changes you made in your life. And I'm still in that phase now, but you get the benefits. So over a long period of time, those benefits start to really reap into your, your life. Firstly, okay, probably the biggest one, which no one talks about is time. You know, my Friday, we finished at Free, I'd be in the pub, I'll be drinking Saturday. Sunday I'd be drinking and recovering Monday, I still feel terrible. So I'll be strolling into Monday with Monday blues being like, oh my God, what am I doing today? And then, you know, you're not 100% productive on Monday. And then before you know it, Friday's on the corner. And if you, if you're like me, you know, you probably could sneak in a Thursday night somewhere. So, you know, when you think about that as a period of time when you are drinking, it's a very long period of time, but you're not functioning. And, uh, that impacts so many things, impact, obviously work. You know, it's kind of productivity, but also kind of health. You know, if you, if you go out Friday night and you blasted, you're not going to go for a run Saturday morning, are you? So I suddenly realized I Have all this time, you know, time, but then also meaningfully, energy, because your energy levels are spiked. So I've got time and I've got energy. Oh my God, what am I going to apply this to? And what I had at the time was something I could take that energy and apply it to, which was the business, uh, and myself as well. So, you know, that then is just a very simple equation of actually more time equals more value. You can spend more time doing things that are actually moving m the needle for you as individual. Um, so, like, crazy things happen. Like, I'd be getting up early, you know, so I'd be getting up instead of rolling out of bed and getting to office 10. I'd be up at 8 and, okay, just do some emails. There was some nights when I came back from the office or if I was traveling London, I get back in it, you know, I'd have a full day traveling in London. I get back into the house at midnight. I'd be like, oh, I fancy going for a run now, because I've just got this energy. So, you know, crazy things happen, um, which then just have, you know, it's the kind of 0.1% impact, you know, not 1% positively over a long period of time becomes exponential. And that's what it felt like. It felt like that things were just moving. I could deal with things I would mentally, I was much more aware, had more mental capacities, deal with problems, could take on more things, could do things quicker. Uh, and, you know, over a year period of time, you're a different person. So that's, that's, you know, it's a very, very simple equation of how, um, the drinking increases productivity. But also then, you know, you change your entire weekend schedule. No longer are you going to form on Friday. No longer are you doing this. And you're like, oh my God, there's a whole bloody world to see. And then actually the addiction becomes maintaining a lifestyle. You know, if I wanted to go off Friday night and come back Monday morning, it became normal. You know, I suddenly had a rest of a world where I could, you know, I wasn't done to the same routine of going to the same nightclubs, going to the same pubs. It was like suddenly the whole world became my oyster. And that's how it felt. It felt like, you know, if I wanted to go and do that, I could go do that. Uh, um, because also there's a huge impact of saving money as well. You know, spending a lot of money. Very young age people, I told you, I spend an alcohol people won't believe it. You know, I posted a couple of times and people like no, there's no way you're spending this amount money on alcohol. And I promise you, you know, I was in a situation where finances were not the, the thing restricted me from drinking. Yeah, I was in this comfortable situation as a 20, 21, 22 year old. I had, you know, I definitely had more money than a lot of people so that wasn't stopping me. So I was finding myself spending you know, 500 pound on night out which is pre normal and it's like compound that over a couple of years and it's a lot of money. You know I went on the app, I went on the app I've got got now called Quick for Life. And it m, it checked how much money you've saved and I've got it very conservatively at uh, you know, 100 pound a week. 100 pound a week. So what, seven years, how many weeks and seven years free? 33, um, 350m. 100 pound a week, 35 grand. You know, very, very simple maths. It's like that a lot of money. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think the time and energy thing, particularly energy thing for me anyway, like I, I wrestle with alcohol a lot and it was a component part of my blow up story. The 2017 blow up, hence the podcast name was alcohol and a kind of self immolation that I was kind of doing at the time when it was all going wrong. And you can't chuck alcohol in the mix. So what's interesting, just, so just, just to observe, you set up a Twitter page called Student Problems and turn that into a business. And now you've got business person problems because you've got some money and you can spend your 500 pound on a night out. And it's like another set of problems emerged from the success. And I think uh, one of the things I'm interested in, in the sort of thesis of this podcast is like the success has this sort of dark side, the yin to the yang as it were. And this sort of, you were able to sort of ride that very kind of. Well, it's all happened for you in a very short space of time and I'm curious to see you looking back at that now because we do have a, you know, what is it like? Well, this is very intense period for you, this very formative time in anyone's life. Looking back at that now with the benefit of hindsight, obviously social change played its way out and your life is where it Is now what, what do you think you've learned from that whole experience? That kind of, you know, the sort of success problems that you had a social chain initially?

Speaker B: Um, I think the biggest thing I've learned is that you know, these problems are going to face me at some point. You know, at some point, you know, I uh, touched what I was going to be. A an earner who had a disposable income. And as an individual at some point I was always going to face adversity. So these problems were always going to happen within me. And I think that was the big part is I'm grateful for that may happen so young because you get out of the way, you know, you talk, you know, alcoholism statistics, over 40 year old men, that's uh, that's who it is. And you know, you start looking at their lifestyles and you know, the ability to bounce off from a hangover at 40 is very different. And you actually become functional functionality. M and um, you know, I, I think that was always going to happen to m. Me, you know, I always think that's going to happen to me. So you know, when I look at it I'm like, okay, well I've probably actually saved my life really, you know, give myself something could have happened, you know. So that's, that's how I look back on it. And I just think that uh, it was a period of time where I learned about myself. It wasn't about, you know what I mean, what am I made up of? You know, we're all, we're all up a little bit. You know, we've all got our broken problems, you know, what are mine and how do, how do they come out, how do they kind of translate and how do they um, how do I respond to them? And I learned that very, very quickly. So for me it was like a very selfless um, you know, during period of self discovery. And I think that's what, you know, I always compare it a little bit to like a bit of a pressure cooker. You know, everything just, you know, everything just comes on, comes on you and you, you've got to respond and got to react. And at first my reactions were completely wrong, but now, you know, stress is a, is a threshold. It's a tolerance level. You know, once you've kind of gone through that kind of old period of stress and you've dealt with that situation, uh, everything below that becomes much more manageable and then the thresholds are actually reaching that again and becoming the most stressful overcome comes further and further away. Because you're actually better at coping with things. So actually I think it's, it's, it's, it set me up as an individual to be able to um, continue to meet myself in high stress environments, um, to be able to put myself in, in difficult circumstances, um, and to challenge and know that I can challenge myself. Because for me it's, you know, I'm seven years in. But it's still the greatest thing I've ever achieved. Regardless of anything else, it's still the greatest thing I achieve. So when you take that kind of mindset that you actually every single day you're breaking a personal record. Every day you're doing a personal best, you know, every day is another day from it. Then you have this kind of air where everything becomes much more manageable. So your dreams can become bigger, your, your, your ambitions can become greater. Um, so that's why I think happened. Um, and I think that was the benefit was dealing with my fuck ups very, very quickly. You're dealing with who I am, you know what's broken in me and learning that and be like okay, I know who I am now. I know what's wrong with me. These things are going to happen in life. Let's get on with it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's very admirable you did it by the way. Because I, I kind of took several times for me to learn that lesson.

Speaker B: It took me seven several times as well. But several times in three months is, you know, it impacts very, very quickly and that's what it felt like. It felt like it was all very, very quick M. And it was a, it was a false grow. It was a force growing up. You know I could have, anything could have, I could have left the business and chose that. I don't want this, this one. I actually just want the enjoyment of life. And I just chose, I made decisions there which are actually more um, more long term than short term.

Speaker A: So why did you stick with it?

Speaker B: Um, I think there's a couple of parts. You know, you conditioned. It's all you ever know. And the idea of, the idea of the idea of the unknown felt uh, much scarier than the idea of sobriety. And I think that's, you know I spoke to founders who have kind of in that situation where they're struggling with alcohol and for them the easiest thing, easy thing to do is leave the business which I can't ah, comprehend because you lose your purpose. The business was the purpose you actually yeah, the problems um, on that, on the day to day cop that Create. Created it, yeah, it created the problems. The anxiety came from cash flow, etc, but the solution, the purpose also came from solving those problems. So, you know, going to rehab, um, you know, checking out and changing your lifestyle. Yeah, it can get you well, it can remove the problems, but you change your situation and go back into something, problems are still going to be there. So for me, that's what I have to think. I had to think, how can I overcome, how can I overcome my demons but also turn up the next day to the thing which is causing me problems and challenge them and battle them. And that was the big part, is like instead of running away and hiding from the problems and getting yourself well, then could back. Actually I said, actually I need to do both at the same time. I need to face the problems but also get myself well. And that's where I think that air of like kind of resilience comes from, is like, you know, what was my biggest problem is actually I've solved it. You know, I, I went through it and faced it.

Speaker A: The paradox is you, you one. I was my biggest problem. You were, uh, it's like you have to overcome yourself. And to a certain extent it's this sort of, this is the paradox of this whole thing is that what I had to do in 2017, and I'm still on this path, by the way, uh, is overcome my demons, battle them and confront it all. And I chose actually in the moment with my business to sort of lean into it and save it and push it through and it's now doing better than ever and we're nearly 19 years old. But it was about taking responsibility. And I know something that you've spoken about. I just read the book Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink. At the time my business blew up and I had this whole thing about, well, ultimately it's my responsibility and I need to own it. And is that something that resonates with you in terms of like this formative forging experience where you were, uh, actually you took responsibility.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's the thing. It's not running. You know, you could get yourself well by removing this. You know, it's about stimuluses. You know, the stimulus is that impact. Your response is still going to be there. And um, you can remove yourself from those stimuluses and put yourself into a controlled environment where you can get over these things. But then exposure to, then going back to the exposure stimulus is how do you know you're going to be able to handle them rather than overcoming the uh, changing response to those stimuluses and situations means that next time those happen, you can deal with them in a better way. And I think that's you completely right, leaning into something which gives you purpose and gives you passion and gives you motivation, and then confronting the problems rather than, you know, taking a step back and dealing with your own demons to be able to then go deal with your problems. Actually, the two are kind of completely linked.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, 100%. You said we're all fucked up a little bit, and I agree with you. We've all got a bit of our own kinks and quirks and working on recognizing that, accepting that and working on that is the path to greater happiness. Because ultimately, these are the sort of Gordian knots tied up deep. Well, I can't speak for anybody listening, but for me, once I sort of worked on them and I went deep into it, my life personally and professionally got significantly better.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's the same reason people leave jobs, because they think it's an easier option. But actually, you go to the next job and potentially problems are the same and you haven't changed yourself.

Speaker A: So what are the problems for you now? So you've had student problems, growing, business problems. Now you've exited. You've got you two for, like, entrepreneurship of your generation. So what are your problems now?

Speaker B: Uh, um. Groom problems. Getting married. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There needs to be some club for grooms who are sat there getting married to kind of have therapy.

Speaker A: You heard it here first. Groomtherapy.com.

Speaker B: yeah, it'll come. Uh, no, you know, my problems are very different now. I think, um, yeah, life's fine, you know, I think I can again. It comes off again. That comes up, that stress threshold. Yeah, stress is happening, life is happening, things are stressful, but reality is, dealing with them becomes much more manageable. Um, because you. You've been in the situation before. You know, if you go, if you. If you. If you. You know, situations don't tend to change, but if you go and face them time to time and time again, it gets easier. And that's what I feel like.

Speaker A: But surely there must be new territory you're opening up or new ground, new things that are happening. I tell you what just springs to mind is recently the Sunday time, although the Times did a hit piece on, um, Stephen. And I don't want to get into that, but I just want to use that as an example. It's just I saw it because Instagram was advertising it to me as I was doing some research on before I. To this, uh, meeting And I just thought, thought there's something really interesting here of like that you can't plan for that gets thrown on your desk. I can't even imagine that like I, I've not double.

Speaker B: That's always happened is it? And that isn't worse than other. You know we've had. We've had clients contract canceled deals on Friday and then repeat on a Monday and lose pitch where we've then suddenly got eight people who work on that account having to be reallocated. And that, that is, that is more difficult than doing things people say so like shit always on the desk. You know, we had lawsuits from the asa. You know, when run that when we start first I'd speak. You know, marketing is like we need to understand whether this is right and whether the work you've done is legal. You know, we've had so much shit thrown at us constantly that uh, you know, we uh. You expect it and when it comes and m. We deal with it, you just know these things are processed and then you approach things very naturally. There's a solution here for everything.

Speaker A: So what I'm curious about is the process because these are all the scale or the nature of the problems change and evolve. That's what I think is interesting in your story. Some of these things you're facing, like what people are saying about you. Thing is perhaps things that other people haven't experienced. You know. And I'm just curious to what is the process for you and is there uh, you know, when you get. Is it a kind of click response, the kind of algorithm that you run when a legal thing happens or a PR things happens or something kicks off. If someone's listening to this and is struggling with their own version of that, what is that? How could they. How do you do that? How do you approach that?

Speaker B: Yeah, ah, I think I'm probably different to. You know, everyone's very different to this. You know, things happen. You know, you go, you know, we're, we're, we're in a dispute at the moment over branding in one part of the business. And it's like I don't think about it. You know, you've got to accept it, you've got to move on. You got to think of something. You know, there's that you can get so tied up in, you know, respond, you know, emotionally respond to these things. But really you've got to see it like a game. You know, these things are always going to happen. They're all. Something's always going to go wrong. Someone's Always going to be upset. You know, we've had issues in work, people where, you know, unfortunately, one of the guys in the business, very key people business has got cancer. Um, you know, another guy in the businesses lost his. One of the girls in business lost three grandparents from COVID And it's like, you know, what they're going through is much more real than what I'm going through. We just like people's petty behavior when it comes to legal. Legal disputes or anything to do with any. That kind of stuff. So, like, that's real. My stuff's not real. Mine's not just a game of chess. We're playing where you've got to move M pieces. That's real life for them. And like, it helps, like, put things in retrospect is like, if they can turn up every single day and have a positive face and face stuff, then what, you know, what am m. I. What. Why am I going to sweat the small stuff? So it becomes just a process. Like, these things happen. You just deal with them and. Oh, you've also got to accept that maybe the solution is not what you want and the one. Your vision, but that's part of it. And you've got to be able to adapt and be nimble and be reactive and respond. So I think from my point of view, my. My response is you just expect it. And I think that's what people, you know, if you don't expect these problems, then when they come, you get overwhelmed. Um, but it comes. You become the negative. You know, I have this thing where I call it kind of like a mono mood where like, the most amazing thing could happen and that'd be the same. The worst thing could happen. I'd be the same. And it's like you get. You learn, you know, potentially again, it's probably up now, but you get conditioned to expect good, uh, bad news and you get conditioned to expect things. So, like, you know, I went to like, real happiness and excitement and my. Excited my wedding. Yes, of course I am. But, like, the emotion, the way I respond to it, you know, m might make people think I'm not. You know, because you can't have those huge volatilities and fluctuations in your life. Because, you know, I could be like, doing. You know, I could book the venue, I could book everything again and be amazingly overwhelmed. But also to have those highs, you also don't have the negative reactions and the lows. So, like, you've got to create stability. And I think that's what I've done is that you know, I've become a bit more like a mono mood where just, like, single moves every single day. And it does fluctuate, you know, but it doesn't fluctuate. It fluctuates, like, minutely, but it does not fluctuate. Other people, like, you will not see, like, a massive high. You'll not see a massive low. And like, you know, I talked to my partner about this. It's like, well, are you m. Missing out on the great things in life? I went, well, maybe m. I am. But also I'm not. I'm protecting myself from the negatives because the negatives do come and I know they're going to come. Um, and I do say maybe one day is a point where the negatives are gone and I'm in a different situation where they know actually the highs become higher. So it's that game of, like, trying to keep trying to get the highest high, but rather low being low. And, you know, my personality. Okay, that's what I said earlier about drinking. I drank on the highs, drank on the lows. Maybe I just need more. Maybe I just need a more stable mood. And how then respond to things becomes different.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's spot on. And I think they give those, like a sine wave up and down. You know, my. This. I've had this problem. So the reason I had, um, I was diagnosed with depression, and that came from my, I would say, relationship with myself and emotional dysregulation, kind of like. And having that. I still have ups and downs now, but I just. There is that it's keeping them. I love the idea of the mono mood. It's like keeping that sort of spectrum of. Of ups and downs and emotional responses in a.

Speaker B: In a.

Speaker A: In a sine wave that's nice and steady, and that's to the point of taking responsibility. Something you can do for one can do for oneself.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So if you listen and you're having a big drama, are they good or bad? That's something you can actually actively act on. We're edging up towards the end of our time together. I like to ask people a question. We're dishing out advice left, right and center, just in 60 seconds. Very quickly, what advice should entrepreneurs ignore?

Speaker B: Uh, I think the big thing to ignore is, um, not sharing your idea. I think people get very protective of what they're trying to do. Um, but if you talk to other entrepreneurs, they're working on their own things. They can only give you feedback and positive feedback on what you're doing. And Constructive feedback. So sharing ideas with entrepreneurs is very valuable because they're busy doing their own thing, they're not going to copy ours. Um, that's why I always say and then obviously probably everyone's around like hustle culture. Yes. The more hours you work, the more you can get competitive advantage to get to other people. However, is it sustainable? I don't know. You can find a way to have competitive advantage about it being sustainable. Um, and I guess that comes back to the debate of work hard versus work smart.

Speaker A: Yeah, nice one. So share your idea, don't burn yourself out plus one on all that. Um, I think it's, it's really important and very healthy. And thank you for sharing all this by the way. It's been a really fantastic conversation. Where can we find more out more about you?

Speaker B: I think the best famous forum I LinkedIn all my Instagram. So I'm very, very open on both those channels.

Speaker A: LinkedIn, Instagram, Fearless Adventures, um, is your company and amongst other interests you have. Um, uh, uh, there's a whole bunch of stuff I was interested in actually about uh, your work on neurodiversity and adhd, which is something I've got a little uh, uh, interest in. But we won't, we've run out of time. But uh, please check out Dominic's activities. A real pioneer as you've heard on business, entrepreneurship, mental health, well being philosophy I would suggest because what you described there is a very, very actionable philosophy of life and I'm personally going to nick the word monomood and start using it. So thank you for that, thanks for listening.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me on, Dan.

Speaker A: My pleasure mate. Uh, thanks everyone. I'll see you all next time. Are you an impact startup founder? Are you looking to do good in the world? And do you want a team to build your tech product? But importantly, do you want that tech product to actually do what you want it to do based on the vision you've got? Then maybe, just maybe, my company, the tech department could be a good fit. And as a founder of a startup, particularly in the early stages, every penny you invest is critical. It's adding value, it's creating improvement to your business. So our differences, we focus first on improvement and that mindset shift is unique and we turn that mindset shift into a method which we called the tech boot camp and it works really great. We get great feedback from all of our startup clients and when you've got your business profitable and you want to build your in house team, then we can help you with that too, and hand over in a way that's not weird. And we're not hanging onto the code or anything stupid like that. So if you like the idea, check us out at www.thetechdept.com T H E T E C H D E P t the tech department thetechdept.com the worst name to pronounce as a domain name on a podcast. Check it out.